Serial terminals

[Thomas Lake]

Do you know how to use a real serial terminal with the PiDP-11? The one I just built works fine on the Raspbian console and all four serial ports are recognized by Raspbian but I get no output on any serial port when running RSTS. I tried adding attach statements to the bootscript but I'm not sure which multiplexer to use. Any help you may give would be appreciated!

Tom L

[Thomas Lake]

Here's my pdp11.ini file. I get no errors but no connection, either:

set cpu 11/70,1m,fpp
set tm0 locked
attach rl0 disk0_rl.dsk
;
; Add extra DZ11 terminal lines
;
;set DZ lines=16
attach DZ -V line=0,connect=/dev/ttyUSB0;110-7e2

[Bill P.]

Hi Thomas,

At the risk of asking what might be an insulting question, have you confirmed that the DZ device is working properly for plain old telnet connections?  Not all of the OS images have been generated to use the terminal multiplexer (DZ) so that could be your issue.  If that is working fine, then my next piece of advice would be to check the serial connection using something like minicom (simple Linux serial terminal program).

--Bill

[Thomas Lake]

I did it! The problem was that I had to edit [0,1]start.com to remove the ! from a line that defined DZ terminals.

I now have four serial terminals and the console running at the same time!! Woot!

Of course each user's program is slowed down quite a bit when all five are running compute intensive tasks but most BASIC users run interactive programs and there's little slowdown when BASIC is waiting for input. In any case, all five sessions are completely useable and I'm thrilled to run five users on the little Raspberry Pi Model 3 B+ Now if I could only figure out how to make RSTS/E v10 use BASIC as its default RTS, I'd be all set. Right now after each user logs in, (s)he has to type SWITCH BASIC to start the BASIC Plus interpreter.

[Chuck McManis]

That sounds great Thomas! Was this a setup that you had used in the
past? We didn't use a lot of RSTS back at USC but we would have 3 or 4
users on the RSX-11M system running on our PDP 11/55t. Of course to
complete my trip down nostalgia lane I would need to reproduce the
crappy Beehive terminal experience (20 lines of 80 characters, woo
hoo!).

Something else that I thought would be fun would be to run my display
in portrait mode, and run a DecWriter III emulator on it, complete
with the 'bzzt, bzzt, bzzt,' as it typed characters.

--Chuck

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[Thomas Lake]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 1:13:07 PM UTC-4, Chuck McManis wrote:

That sounds great Thomas!  Was this a setup that you had used in the
past?  

Yep, it has a lot of nostalgia value for me. Right now I'm using one ADM-5, one Teletype ASR33, one PC and one laptop as terminals and a PC for the console.

I might just have to scour eBay for four VT-100 terminals! (Well, no. Even nostalgia has its limits!)

I really appreciate all the help everyone here has given me. My questions may have been silly but they were always answered with patience. I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future but with all this support, I'm a bit braver in experimenting.

Also, a big thanks to Oscar without whom none of this would've been possible.

Tom L

[andy]

Hey Tom, glad you got it sorted. So you used serial converters on your USB ports... one for each terminal.. yeah?

Or did you add a couple of onboard MAX232 chips?

cheers

Andy

[andy]

.... and these are the ATTACH commands I used (in another post of Tom's.)  I also enabled UART=1 (Oscar post elsewhere)

Any ideas where I'm going wrong? 

  

cheers!

Andy

[Manfred Koethe]

Andy,

The RSX-11M Plus originally distributed by Oscar does not have the DZ-11 driver generated in.

You can try this system image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yc9y9e3h4t482rh/rsx11mpbl87.dsk?dl=0

It has 16 DZ lines and various other junk [ :-) ]

Good luck,

Manfred

[Thomas Lake]

How about the RSTS version 7 he's trying to run? 

I ended up doing a complete install of RSTS/E 10.1 from a tape image and added the BASIC PLUS 2 compiler. The 10.1 version is very easy to install. IMHO it's a lot easier to install than version 7.

Now I have 10.1 in the PiDP bootscript slot 8. If anyone wants a ready-to-run version 10.1 RA72 disk, I can make it (and the bootscript of course) available. Mine is set up to run

four serial terminals and a console using the HDMI port, a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse. I have a USB to 4 RS-232 port converter so I only need one USB port to run all four terminals. It works great.

Tom L

[Thomas Lake]

On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 1:13:06 AM UTC-4, Thomas Lake wrote:

I use a USB to 4 RS-232 port converter so I only take one USB port to run all four terminals. If I used the MAX chips, I'd need all four USB ports to run the four terminals.

Here's the one I use. I've had very good luck with it even down to 110 baud for my Teletype ASR 33. Some converters don't work at less than 300 baud.

https://lavaports.com/products/usb-serial-links/usb-serial-link-4-232-db9-cabled/

The four ports are immediately recognized as ttyUSBn (where n is a digit) when Raspbian is booted. 

Tom L

[Johnny Billquist]

If you used the MAX chips, it would imply that you are using serial
ports, so why would you be using any USB ports at all?

Johnny

On 2018-11-03 06:13, Thomas Lake wrote:
> I use a USB to 4 RS-232 port converter so I only take one USB port to
> run all four terminals. If I used the MAX chips, I'd need all four USB
> ports to run the four terminals.
>
> Here's the one I use. I've had very good luck with it even down to 110
> baud for my Teletype ASR 33. Some converters don't work at less than 300
> baud.
>
> https://lavaports.com/products/usb-serial-links/usb-serial-link-4-232-db9-cabled/
>

> Tom L
>
> On Friday, November 2, 2018 at 11:07:01 AM UTC-4, andy wrote:
>

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--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[Thomas Lake]

On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 12:53:09 PM UTC-4, Johnny Billquist wrote:

If you used the MAX chips, it would imply that you are using serial
ports, so why would you be using any USB ports at all?

   Johnny

The instructions say in order to use the MAX chips, you have to connect the USB ports to the input side of the chips (two USB ports per chip). The chips then convert the signals into RS-232 signals that you can bring out to the back panel. When I first saw the build instructions, I thought I'd be getting 4 USB ports AND 4 RS-232 ports but no. For each RS-232 port you have to tie up a USB port.

[Johnny Billquist]

Hum. I should check things out more, but this would mean that you would
have a USB to TTL adapter inside, and your serial ports are just a more
convoluted way of getting four serial ports than to just connect four
USB to serial adapters which already contain the converters to RS-232
levels?

Are there no actual serial ports on the RPi?

Johnny

On 2018-11-03 18:33, Thomas Lake wrote:
>
>
> On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 12:53:09 PM UTC-4, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
> If you used the MAX chips, it would imply that you are using serial
> ports, so why would you be using any USB ports at all?
>
>    Johnny
>
> The instructions say in order to use the MAX chips, you have to
> connect the USB ports to the input side of the chips (two USB ports
> per chip). The chips then convert the signals into RS-232 signals
> that you can bring out to the back panel. When I first saw the build

> instructions, I thought I'd be getting 4 USB ports /*AND*/ 4 RS-232

> ports but no. For each RS-232 port you have to tie up a USB port.
>

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[Ron Pool]

There is one 5V TTL-level serial port from the Raspberry Pi that is brought out to a 5-pin section of the PiDP-11 board:

(if you choose to use that 5-pin 5V TTL level serial console connector, make sure you don't use the 5V pin to feed power to the Pi through a TTL-Level to USB serial cable at the same time that you feed power into the Pi over it's power connector.)

There are no other free Raspberry Pi pins (except the two I2C pins) for use as serial ports.  As implemented, all other pins are needed for driving and reading front panel LEDs and switches.

You get to choose whether to use that one 5V TTL serial port or not.  If you choose to use that port, you also get to choose whether or not to connect it to something that takes 5V level signals (like a 5V TTL to USB console cables that is sometimes used to connect a laptop or desktop computer to a Raspberry Pi) or to install a MAX232 and capacitors and bring out that serial port to a DE9 (sometimes called DB9) or DB25 connector on the back panel.  If you use that single built-in serial port, it won't be available as the Raspberry Pi console port unless you make a startup file config change.  It's your choice to not use that one serial port, use it as a general serial port, or use it as the Raspberry Pi's serial console port.

0, 1, or 2 MAX232 chips can be used -- it's your choice.  Each MAX232 can convert 5V TTL levels to RS232 levels for two serial ports.  If MAX232s are used, only transmit and receive for each of up to 4 serial ports spread over the two MAX232 chips can be used.  No other control signals (DTR, DCD, CTS, RTS, RI, etc) are supported when doing this. The advantage of using the MAX232 chips here is really that you can then place shallow DE9 or DB25 connectors on the back panel, which should be easy-ish to squeeze inside the PiDP-11 case.  The common alternative way of putting DE9 and DB25 connectors on the back panel would be to try to squeeze the DE9/DB25 end of USB to RS232 cables (or 5V TTL serial to RS232 boards with built-in DE9/DB25) into the limited space between the back panel and the PiDP-11 PCB, and there's not room for that unless you space the back panel away from the case using some kind of extender ring.

You can fairly easily squeeze everything for up to 4 DE9/DB25 serial ports inside the PiDP-11 case by using a couple of MAX232 chips (and capacitors), and 0 to 4 USB to 5V TTL serial cables (that don't have DE9/DB25 connectors built in).

And you could probably squeeze even more inside the case if you're determined, like more than 4 USB to serial adapters plus RS232 level shifters.

You could also just bring out a single USB connection to the back panel and plug in an external USB hub and as many external USB to serial single- or mult-port adapters as you wish.

Oscar has given us many choices.  The flexibility is nice, but it does mean we need to read up on the options before we get too far into our builds.

[andy]

Tom & Manfred - thanks for the guidance! (sorry for delay in replying)

And Tom - - if there's anyway you can point me in the direction of a "ready to run" version of RSTS which can handle a bunch of old terminals I'd be most grateful... Or some idiot-proof guidance.... I am very much not an expert in this :-)

cheers

Andy

[Thomas Lake]

Here's a link to a ready-to-run RSTS/E 10.1. It includes all utilities and commands as well as the bootscript.

You have to create a directory for it (I chose 8) then copy the .dsk and .tap files in this zip to it and the script to PiDP11.

If you want to use a directory other than 8, change the number in the name of the script to reflect your new location.

BASIC Plus 2 is already installed and updated. I just included the instructions for your curiosity.

RSTS/E 10.1

Tom L

[John Reinhardt]

On 11/3/2018 4:21 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

Hum. I should check things out more, but this would mean that you would have a USB to TTL adapter inside, and your serial ports are just a more convoluted way of getting four serial ports than to just connect four USB to serial adapters which already contain the converters to RS-232 levels?

Are there no actual serial ports on the RPi?

  Johnny

Hi Johnny.  No there aren't.  There are 4 USB 2.0 type A connector ports.  There is a serial console connection on the GPIO pins but it's a TTL level which needs a level shifting to true RS-232 voltage levels. So in order to get RS-232 TTY ports you need to do a USB-Serial conversion for as many of the USB ports as you want serial lines.  With the space constraints in the case it means if you want the DE9 connectors on the back panel you have to do a two step conversion.  First from USB to TTL level serial with something  like this  <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0755DBGJM>  The output from these then goes to the MAX232 section of the PiDP circuit board for level shifting to RS-232 levels and then to the DE9 connectors wired on the back panel.

Theoretically, you could just use a USB-Serial cable like this <https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Serial-9-Pin-RS-232-Adapter/dp/B00C8JSK3A> but fitting up to four in the case would be a neat trick.  Plus the first way is much cheaper.

Of course, you could just get this 4-way <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ETDC8K>, run the cord out through a hole in the back but it's not as neat as having serial ports on the back of your PiDP-11. :D

John H. Reinhardt

[andy]

Tom - thanks so much for that ….will be reporting back!

Andy

[Ron Pool]

On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 7:46:11 PM UTC-4, Ron Pool wrote:

There is one 5V TTL-level serial port from the Raspberry Pi that is brought out to a 5-pin section of the PiDP-11 board:

(if you choose to use that 5-pin 5V TTL level serial console connector, make sure you don't use the 5V pin to feed power to the Pi through a TTL-Level to USB serial cable at the same time that you feed power into the Pi over it's power connector.)

Correction: RX and TX are 3.3V serial signals, not 5V.  I don't know if the Pi's RX line is 5V tolerant, but I do know it expects to be seeing 0V to 3.3V on that pin.

[Oscar Vermeulen]

Ron,

On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 17:56, Ron Pool <amp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Correction: RX and TX are 3.3V serial signals, not 5V.  I don't know if the Pi's RX line is 5V tolerant, but I do know it expects to be seeing 0V to 3.3V on that pin. 

I added a voltage divider, so the serial console port is 5V tolerant. Indeed, never connect the red wire of USB-serial cables here. The 5V from the USB cable will clash with the 5V from the Pi power supply. And the USB 5V is not powerful enough to power the Pi on its own.

In the mean time, someone pointed out a weakness in this connector. You can, as is described on the web pages, also hook up your 5V power supply on this connector (which is why there are two GND pins on the connector - one for the USB serial cable, one for a power supply).

BUT: the traces from here (via the key switch connector) to the GPIO connector are not thick enough to carry sufficient power to the Pi. It'll work (at least it does for me) but if you do the math, the traces are not wide enough, potentially causing an unwanted voltage drop. For the prudent, oldering a wire to back up the 5V and GND traces makes sense if you use this connector to hook up your PS.

Kind regards,

Oscar.

[andy]

Hi Tom - I copied over the files to the bootscripts/8 folder I created.  Copied also the script into bootscripts folder.… permissions are set to "anybody" but I seem to be having a small weird problem

I invoke the script by doing

cd /opt/pidp11/bin

./pidp11.sh 8

With the following result:

pi@raspberrypi:/opt/pidp11/bin $ ./pidp11.sh 8
*** Start portmapper for RPC service ... fails if already running
rpcbind: another rpcbind is already running. Aborting
*** Kill possibly running instances of Blinkenlight server ... only one allowed !
ls: cannot access '../bootscripts/8?*.script': No such file or directory

*** Start client/server ***
[22:35:05.318] *** pidp11_blinkenlightd v1.4.1 - server for PiDP11 ***
[22:35:05.319]     Compiled May 11 2018 19:05:24
[22:35:05.319]     Copyright (C) 2015-2016 Joerg Hoppe, Oscar Vermeulen.
[22:35:05.319]     www.retrocmp.com, obsolescence.wix.com/obsolescence
[22:35:05.319]
Created "gpio_mux" thread
RPi 2 detected

PiDP-11 FP on
Created "gpiopattern_update_leds" thread

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Current  REALCONS build May 11 2018        git commit id: $Format:
sim>

Any tips?  I feel like I must surely be close - user error :-)

cheers

Andy

[Thomas Lake]

The .script file itself does NOT go to the 8 directory. It goes to the directory the level above 8,

opt/pidp11

Tom L

[Thomas Lake]

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 5:49:39 PM UTC-5, Thomas Lake wrote:

The .script file itself does NOT go to the 8 directory. It goes to the directory the level above 8,

opt/pidp11

Tom L

See where all the other .script files are and put the .script file there 

[andy]

Hey Tom-  I do have it in the folder with the other .scripts (bootscript folder)….

cheers

Andy

[andy]

oops hold on... I definitely messed something up .. 

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 5:49:39 PM UTC-5, Thomas Lake wrote:

[andy]

Well I must be getting closer! ( I embarrassingly had the files slightly in the wrong place)\

However it just freezes at the bottom here... "Disabling XQ"

pi@raspberrypi:~ $ cd /opt/pidp11/bin

pi@raspberrypi:/opt/pidp11/bin $ ./pidp11.sh 8
*** Start portmapper for RPC service ... fails if already running
rpcbind: another rpcbind is already running. Aborting
*** Kill possibly running instances of Blinkenlight server ... only one allowed !

../bootscripts/8_rsts10.1.script
*** Start client/server ***
[1:02:44.190] *** pidp11_blinkenlightd v1.4.1 - server for PiDP11 ***
[1:02:44.190]     Compiled May 11 2018 19:05:24
[1:02:44.190]     Copyright (C) 2015-2016 Joerg Hoppe, Oscar Vermeulen.
[1:02:44.190]     www.retrocmp.com, obsolescence.wix.com/obsolescence
[1:02:44.190]

Created "gpio_mux" thread
RPi 2 detected

PiDP-11 FP on
Created "gpiopattern_update_leds" thread

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Current  REALCONS build May 11 2018        git commit id: $Format:

Disabling XQ

[Thomas Lake]

Do you actually have serial ports installed? If not, comment the lines that start "attach dz..." and see if that helps.

If you DO have serial ports installed, try changing ser0 to /dev/ttyUSB0, ser1 to /dev/ttyUSB1, etc.

Tom L

[andy]

Hey Tom - yep I just checked, I have a couple of USB-serial converters that worked perfectly for my PiDP8.. they pop up when plugged in in /dev and ttyusb0, ttyusb1 etc.

I am wondering if I did something to my SD card when I lost power. Gonna try a fresh Raspbian stretch just to rule out any weirdness.

thanks for the guidance Tom.

Andy

[Oscar Vermeulen]

Andy,

Just to check (you probably know but in case you do not): the 4 new serial ports (serial USB cables) must be recognised by Raspbian (use lsusb to check) but you should *not* configure them as Linux terminal ports. Just unconfigured as 'unused' serial ports for Linux. Then they are free for use by simh as terminals *for simh* rather than for Linux.

Simple check: if you get to see a Linux login - that is not good. You've then set them up as Linux terminals.

Kind regards,

Oscar.

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[andy]

Some progress!

[andy]

Hey Oscar, Tom- my installation is pretty standard, I did not deviate or innovate beyond the instructions in any way...  Apart from UART=1 and adding RSTSE folder "8" per Tom's info above.  

Interesting points:  I notice my Pi overheating...  I get a thermometer on my screen... (never had that before... very exciting.. I need to move my fire extinguisher closer :-))

Also I notice power is going down to 4.9V... it's a genuine Pi wart... but wondering if I need a beefier wallwart? I have a 5.25V one which I could use, maybe good idea to use that with a small fan?

Tom - regarding -  "CONNECTED TO THE PDP-11 SIMULATOR DZ DEVICE, LINE 3"

Do you get this on your terminal?  How did you get past that?  My keyboard seem to respond, perhaps I need to send a code?

Here's my HDMI screen view. 

 

pi@raspberrypi:~ $ cd /opt/pidp11/bin
pi@raspberrypi:/opt/pidp11/bin $ ./pidp11.sh 8
*** Start portmapper for RPC service ... fails if already running
rpcbind: another rpcbind is already running. Aborting
*** Kill possibly running instances of Blinkenlight server ... only one allowed !
../bootscripts/8_rsts10.1.script
*** Start client/server ***

[17:56:10.024] *** pidp11_blinkenlightd v1.4.1 - server for PiDP11 ***
[17:56:10.024]     Compiled May 11 2018 19:05:24
[17:56:10.024]     Copyright (C) 2015-2016 Joerg Hoppe, Oscar Vermeulen.
[17:56:10.024]     www.retrocmp.com, obsolescence.wix.com/obsolescence
[17:56:10.024]

Created "gpio_mux" thread
RPi 2 detected

PiDP-11 FP on
Created "gpiopattern_update_leds" thread

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Current  REALCONS build May 11 2018        git commit id: $Format:
Disabling XQ

Searching realcons controller "11/70" ...
Connecting to host localhost …

RSTS V10.1-L RSTS   (DU0) INIT V10.1-0L

Today's date? 1-JAN-92

Current time? 01:01

Start timesharing? <Yes>

Disk is being rebuilt - wait ...

01-Jan-92 01:01 AM

6 devices disabled

Proceed with system startup? <YES>

 Beginning RSTS/E system startup...
01-Jan-92 01:01 AM   Installing monitor overlays
01-Jan-92 01:01 AM   Mounting disks
01-Jan-92 01:01 AM   Assigning logical names
01-Jan-92 01:01 AM   Starting error logging
01-Jan-92 01:01 AM   Setting system characteristics
01-Jan-92 01:01 AM   Installing run-time systems and libraries
01-Jan-92 01:01 AM   Starting Operator/Message Services

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  OMS V10.1-A  01-Jan-92 01:01 AM  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message 1 from OMS, user [1,2], Detached, job 3
Starting Operator/Message Services
01-Jan-92 01:01 AM   Setting terminal characteristics
01-Jan-92 01:01 AM   Defining system commands
01-Jan-92 01:01 AM   Setting printer characteristics
01-Jan-92 01:01 AM   Starting spoolers

*** From [1,2] "[ 1, 2]" on KB0: at 01:01 AM 01-Jan-92    
** RSTS/E is on the air...    

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  OMS V10.1-A  01-Jan-92 01:01 AM  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message 2 from user [1,2] on _KB0:, job 2
The system startup is complete

RSTS V10.1-L 01-Jan-92 01:01 AM
User: 1,2
Password:

Jobs detached under this account:
   Job  What  Size  State   Run-time   RTS
    1  ERRCPY 5K    SR           3.6  ...RSX
    3  OMS    9K    SL           0.4  ...RSX
    4  PBS... 19K   SL           1.0  ...RSX
Job number to attach to?
Last interactive login on 01-Jan-92, 01:01 AM at KB0:
Last non-interactive login on 01-Jan-92, 01:01 AM
3 other users are logged in under this account

$ sys

RSTS V10.1-L RSTS/E V10.1 status at 01-Jan-92, 01:01 AM Up: 46

Job    Who    Where     What    Size    State     Run-Time Pri/RB   RTS
 1     1,2    Det      ERRCPY   5/64K   SR            3.6    0/6    ...RSX
 2     1,2    KB0      SYSTAT  17/64K   RN Lck        0.1   -8/6    ...RSX
 3     1,2    Det      OMS      9/64K   SL            0.4    0/6    ...RSX
 4     1,2    Det      PBS...  19/64K   SL            1.0   -8/6    ...RSX

Busy Devices: None

Disk Structure:
Dsk  Open    Size      Free    Clu   Err Name      Level  Comments
DU0    25 1953280 1884032  96%  32     0 RSTS10     1.2   Pub, DLW

General  FIP                    Hung
Buffers  Buffers  Jobs/Jobmax   TTY's   Errors
  637      452       4/25         0        0

Run-Time Systems:
 Name   Typ   Dev    Size    Users  Comments
...RSX  TSK          0(66)K    4    Monitor, KBM
DCL     COM   DU0:   24(8)K    0    Temp, Addr:82, DF KBM
RT11    SAV   DU0:   4(28)K    0    Temp, Addr:128, KBM, CSZ, EMT:255
BASIC   BAC   DU0:  16(16)K    0    Non-Res, KBM, CSZ
TECO    TEC   DU0:  10(20)K    0    Non-Res, KBM
BP2           DU0:    1(1)K    0    Non-Res, KBM

Resident Libraries:
 Name  Prot        Acct      Size  Users  Comments
CSP100 < 42>  DU0:[  0,1  ]    8K    3    Temp, Addr:113
CSPLIB < 42>  DU0:[  0,1  ]    8K    0    Non-Res
EDT    < 42>  DU0:[  0,11 ]   39K    0    Non-Res
RMSRES < 42>  DU0:[  0,10 ]    4K    1    Temp, Addr:1746
RMSLBA < 42>  DU0:[  0,10 ]    4K    1    Temp, Addr:121
RMSLBB < 42>  DU0:[  0,10 ]    3K    1    Temp, Addr:139
RMSLBC < 42>  DU0:[  0,10 ]    3K    1    Non-Res
RMSLBD < 42>  DU0:[  0,10 ]    2K    1    Temp, Addr:125
RMSLBE < 42>  DU0:[  0,10 ]    3K    1    Temp, Addr:132
RMSLBF < 42>  DU0:[  0,10 ]    4K    1    Temp, Addr:135
DAPRES < 42>  DU0:[  0,10 ]   10K    0    Non-Res, Addr:1736
BP2RES < 42>  DU0:[  0,1  ]   17K    0    Non-Res, Addr:1719
BP2SML < 42>  DU0:[  0,1  ]    8K    0    Non-Res, Addr:1711

Message Receivers:
Rcvrid   Job    Rib  Obj   Msgs/Max   Links/InMax/OutMax  Access
ERRLOG    1      0    1       0/40          0/0/0          Prv
OMS       3      0   11       0/30          0/0/255        Lcl
QM$CMD    4      1    3       0/20          0/0/255        Prv
QM$SRV    4      2    4       0/30          0/0/255        Prv
QM$URP    4      3    5       0/10          0/0/255        Lcl
PR$04A    4     17   65       0/5           0/0/255        Prv
PR$04B    4     25   65       0/5           0/0/255        Prv
BA$04A    4     41   66       0/5           0/0/255        Prv
BA$04B    4     49   66       0/5           0/0/255        Prv
BA$04C    4     57   66       0/5           0/0/255        Prv
$
$
$ 

[Thomas Lake]

On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 1:22:49 PM UTC-5, andy wrote:

Hey Oscar, Tom- my installation is pretty standard, I did not deviate or innovate beyond the instructions in any way...  Apart from UART=1 and adding RSTSE folder "8" per Tom's info above.  

Tom - regarding -  "CONNECTED TO THE PDP-11 SIMULATOR DZ DEVICE, LINE 3"

Do you get this on your terminal?  How did you get past that?  My keyboard seem to respond, perhaps I need to send a code?

 

Hey, you're making progress! Yes, you should get that. A little while after you should get a message something like this:

*** From [1,2] "[ 1, 2]" on KB0: at 02:42 PM 05-Nov-18

** RSTS/E is on the air...

Try hitting Enter a few times or type 

HELLO 1,2

The password for account 1,2 is "system" (without the quotes)

The disk image I sent also has accounts [100,100] and [100,101]

They're just user accounts with only SETPAS privilege. You can delete them and create your own. 

Any account that is NOT [1,2] will come up at a BASIC Plus READY prompt. 

Account [1,2] comes up at a DCL $ prompt.

[andy]

uggh … cannot seem to get anything past that CONNECTED TO THE PDP11 SIMULATOR message!

Tried it on the different USB dongles... still no luck.  I have a little Panasonic printer/terminal I will test as well.  

So close!

[andy]

My Panasonic printer prints that message as well .... but also no keyboard interaction!

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2018-11-05 23:14, andy wrote:
> My Panasonic printer prints that message as well .... but also no
> keyboard interaction!

This is normally an indication that simh have the device configured
correctly, but in the PDP-11 environment, that serial port isn't
configured. Either the OS don't even have the device driver, or it's
disabled or something.

Johnny

[andy]

Hi Johnny- thanks for the pointers.   Was wondering if the order of the ATTACH commands makes a difference?  Maybe it gets enabled (and prints out "CONNECTED TO THE PDP SIMULATOR") but subsequently gets disabled or disconnected?  

Thanks for any help!

Andy

Here's my script in full

detach all
reset all

; RSTS V10.1 from Tom Lake for 11/70
; runs from an RQ disk drive

set cpu 11/70 4m fpp
;
; Attach the RSTS/E 10.1 install tape...
;att tq0 ../bootscripts/8/rstse_v10_1_install_sep10_1992.tap
;
; or attach the BASIC PLUS 2 install tape
;att ../bootscripts/8/tq0 bp2_v2_7.tap
;
set tq0 locked
;
;--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; MSCP Disks - the largest disk I could install RSTS/E 10.1 on was the 1GB RA72
;--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; RA60_(204M)
; RA71(700M),RA72(1G)
; RA80_(121M),RA81_(456M),RA82_(622M),RA90(1216M),RA92(1505M),RC25_(26M)
; RD31_(21M),RD32_(42M)
; RD51_(11M),RD52_(30M),RD53_(71M),RD54_(152M)
; RX33_(1228K),RX50*(409K)
; RRD40(CD-ROM,681MB)
;
set rq0 ra72
attach rq ../bootscripts/8/rstse_10_ra72.dsk
;
; Add extra DZ11 terminal lines
; ser0=/dev/ttyUSB0 ser1=/dev/ttyUSB1 ser2=/dev/ttyUSB2 ser3=/dev/ttyUSB3
;
attach dz -V line=0,connect=/dev/ttyUSB0;300-8n1
attach dz -V line=1,connect=/dev/ttyUSB1;300-8n1
attach dz -V line=2,connect=/dev/ttyUSB2;300-8n1
attach dz -V line=3,connect=/dev/ttyUSB3;300-8n1
;
; connect to panel
set realcons host=localhost
set realcons panel=11/70
; We're running on a desktop PC with connection to localhost: max speed!
set realcons interval=1
set realcons connected
;set realcons debug
;show realcons

; real VT100 locks on 24 newlines?
echo
echo
echo
echo
echo
echo
echo
echo
echo
echo
;
;
; Boot MSCP disk unit 0 (and switch keyboard to PDP-11 console)...
;
boot rq0
;
; or boot RSTS/E install tape
;boot tq0

[Johnny Billquist]

If you get the "CONNECTED TO THE PDP-11 SIMULATOR DZ DEVICE, LINE 3",
then there should not be anything more to do on the simh side. You have
it right.

The thing is, after that, it is about the PDP-11 operating system
actually communicating on the serial port.
And since we're talking RSTS/E if I don't remember wrong, someone else
will need to tell if there is anything special to do to enable some
serial ports on that side.
Also, it is important to have the simh environment matching what the
PDP-11 environment is expecting.

That is, if you have DZ-11 in simh, you need the DZ-11 driver on the
PDP-11 side. Any other type of serial ports will not do.
And you need to match CSR and vector addressse between the two sides.

The connected message just means that simh have the serial port running,
and under control. It does not tell you anything about this being
correctly configured and matching what the PDP-11 is looking for.

Johnny

On 2018-11-06 13:12, andy wrote:
> Hi Johnny- thanks for the pointers. Unsure of what I should do in the
> PDP-11 environment.  Was wondering if the order of the ATTACH commands

> makes a difference?  Maybe it gets enabled (and prints out "CONNECTED TO

> THE PDP SIMULATOR") but subsequently gets disabled?
>
> Thanks for all help!

> On 2018-11-05 23:14, andy wrote:
> > My Panasonic printer prints that message as well .... but also no
> > keyboard interaction!
>
> This is normally an indication that simh have the device configured
> correctly, but in the PDP-11 environment, that serial port isn't
> configured. Either the OS don't even have the device driver, or it's
> disabled or something.
>
>    Johnny
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                    ||  on a psychedelic trip

> email: b...@softjar.se <javascript:>             ||  Reading murder

> books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>

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[Ron Pool]

Andy,

Maybe listing what RSTS/E sees as installed devices may help you figure out what's happening.  When you're asked "Start timesharing?" you can say No and then you'll have the option to view what hardware/devices RSTS/E sees.  Here I do a HARDWR and then LI.  You can also type ? at any of these prompts to see what options are available to you.

Start timesharing? <Yes> NO


Option: <Start> HARDWR

  HARDWR suboption? LI

  Name  Address Vector  Comments
  TT0:   177560   060
  RK0:   177400   220   Units: 0(RK05) 1(RK05) 2(RK05) 3(RK05) 4(RK05)
                              5(RK05) 6(RK05) 7(RK05)
  RL0:   174400   160   Units: 0(RL01) 1(RL01) 2(RL01) 3(RL01)
  RM0:   177440   210   Units: 0(RK06) 1(RK06) 2(RK06) 3(RK06) 4(RK06) 5(RK06)
                               6(RK06) 7(RK06)
  RR0:   176700   254   BAE=+050, Units: 0(RM03) 1(RM03) 2(RM03) 3(RM03)
                               4(RM03) 5(RM03) 6(RM03) 7(RM03)
  RU0:   172150  P340   RQDX3   Units: 0(RA92) 1(RA92) 2(RD54) 3(RX50)
  MU0:   174500  P344   TK50    Units: 0(TK50) 1(TK50) 2(TK50) 3(TK50)
  TU0:   172440   224   BAE=+034, Units: 0(TU77 @TM03 #0) 1(TU77 @TM03 #0)
                               2(TU77 @TM03 #0) 3(TU77 @TM03 #0)
                               4(TE16 @TM03 #0) 5(TE16 @TM03 #0)
                               6(TE16 @TM03 #0) 7(TE16 @TM03 #0)
  PR0:   177550   070
  PP0:   177554   074
  LP0:   177514   200
  RX0:   177170   264   Units: 0(RX01) 1(RX01)
  DZ0:   160100   300   Sub-lines: 8
  DZ1:   160110   310   Sub-lines: 8
  DZ2:   160120   320   Sub-lines: 8
  DZ3:   160130   330   Sub-lines: 8

  KW11L  177546   100
  SR     177570
  DR     177570

  Hertz = 60.

  Other: FPU, SL, 22-Bit, Data space, Cache w/address, System ID = 4660

  HARDWR suboption?

In the above you can see I have 32 DZ11 ports defined.  In SIMH I have mine attached to incoming telnet ports instead of physical serial ports.  But that's a distinction that SIMH knows about.  RSTS/E doesn't know or care what the DZ11 ports are attached to.

You can also check what devices RSTS/E sees after you've started it and are logged in.  In the following I've cut out most of my devices that RSTS/E sees except for the first 10 serial ports:

$ show dev
(output of show devices trimmed out)
Device _KB0:   (KBA0:)   Control TT0:    CSR 777560  Status: Restricted
Device _KB1:   (KBD0:)   Control PK0:                Status: Restricted
Device _KB2:   (KBD1:)   Control PK1:                Status: Restricted
Device _KB3:   (KBD2:)   Control PK2:                Status: Restricted
Device _KB4:   (KBD3:)   Control PK3:                Status: Restricted
Device _KB5:   (KBG0:)   Control DZ0:0   CSR 760100  Status: Restricted, Dialup
Device _KB6:   (KBG1:)   Control DZ0:1   CSR 760100  Status: Restricted, Dialup
Device _KB7:   (KBG2:)   Control DZ0:2   CSR 760100  Status: Restricted, Dialup
Device _KB8:   (KBG3:)   Control DZ0:3   CSR 760100  Status: Restricted, Dialup
Device _KB9:   (KBG4:)   Control DZ0:4   CSR 760100  Status: Restricted, Dialup
(output of show devices trimmed out)
$

My DZ11 devices are listed above as Dialup because I added lines like these to [0,1]START.COM:

set term/perm/dialup/device_type=VT100 kb5:
set term/perm/dialup/device_type=VT100 kb6:
set term/perm/dialup/device_type=VT100 kb7:
set term/perm/dialup/device_type=VT100 kb8:
set term/perm/dialup/device_type=VT100 kb9:

The lines being set to Dialup means (among other things) that on those lines/ports you'll have to press Return two or three times before you'll be prompted to login.  Read the RSTS/E manuals or type HELP SET TERM to see what the RSTS/E options are for serial lines/ports.

Maybe when you attach real serial ports to DZ11 ports (instead of attaching incoming telnet ports) you're limited to the baud rates that RSTS/E supports on DZ11 devices.  According to the System Directives Manual for RSTS/E 10.1, the acceptable speeds for DZ11 ports are:

50
75
110
134.5
150
300
600
1200
1800
2000
2400
3600
4800
7200
9600

If you're still using the SIMH attach commands you showed in an older screenshot, then I think you're setting your serial ports to 300 baud and should be all set from the point of view of RSTS/E.

[Thomas Lake]

I just had a thought: Your terminal isn't set to XON/XOFF or hardware flow control, is it? If so it's waiting for the signal to continue which it will never get.

Set your terminal for no flow control if it's not already set that way and try again.

Tom L

On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 6:31:28 AM UTC-4, Thomas Lake wrote:

Do you know how to use a real serial terminal with the PiDP-11? The one I just built works fine on the Raspbian console and all four serial ports are recognized by Raspbian but I get no output on any serial port when running RSTS. I tried adding attach statements to the bootscript but I'm not sure which multiplexer to use. Any help you may give would be appreciated!

Tom L

[andy]

Thanks guys for all the help!  Let me update you as soon as I can get to my machine :-)

cheers!!

Andy

[andy]

Great news.  Woot! - as Tom would say.

Following Ron's suggestions I looked at the SHOW HARDWARE and SHO DEV... after a few tweaks in [0,1]START.COM my devices in SIMH (ttyusb0, ttyusb1) now seem to correctly "map" to kb5:, kb6:, kb7: etc. 

 Couple of observations:

1.  Turning off Hardware Flow control XON/XOFF didn't seem to make much difference that I could tell at 300 baud.  

2. I have 4 terminals connected using USB/Serial converters.  To save on USB ports (and my patent inability to get my 2 MAX232s working) I plugged all 4 into a simple MonoPrice 4-port hub. Seemed to work

My next step is to get my 4-port KEYSPAN usb/serial working.  It does not seem to get recognized.  Will report back when I get it sorted - I believe this topic was covered by Tom for the PidP8. If that fails I will follow Tom's lead and get the Lava device that he mentions in an earlier post.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR HELP!!!  Sure is good to see my terminals working nicely...

cheers

Andy

 

[Thomas Lake]

I have a Tripp-Lite Keyspan 4 port USB serial adapter (model USA-49WG) that is immediately recognized in Raspbian and it does work but the output is jerkier than with the LAVA unit. If I ever need more than four terminals, though, I'll use it.

[Tom Lake]

Also, don't forget that if you're using my disk image and want to compile BASIC programs to a true machine language load module, you can SWITCH BP2 to enter BASIC PLUS 2 (with a BASIC2 prompt) which is a compiler. The BASIC PLUS environment (with a READY prompt) is an interpreter even though it has a COMPILE command. All that command does is resolve line numbers and save the entire workspace for faster loading. To leave the BP2 environment, you have to put a ! in front of SWITCH like so:

!SWITCH BASIC

or

!SWITCH DCL

 

On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 7:20:39 PM UTC-5, andy wrote:

[andy]

Hey Tom - thx for the pointers. Is your Raspbian the most recent (Stretch?)

cheers

[andy]

Tom- even more great news!  I got my keyspan to work.  Had to follow this process from the PidP8 forum (I needed drivers)

As a separate project I am trying to get a couple of teletypes hooked up... you got your TTY working with the LAVA?

Can't wait to get my kids banging away at the keyboard doing BASIC!

I'm going to need more ports in due course :-)

thanks for all the help...

Andy

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 11:09:14 AM UTC-4, Jamie Cox wrote:

Thanks, Mike,

My Keyspan adapter was not recognized initially. However, after following instructions here:

http://www.chrisdanielson.com/2012/04/10/linux-firmware-keyspan-usb-to-serial/

It is now recognized by Linux. It needed the secret-sauce firmware.


On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 11:48:34 AM UTC-4, Mike Barnes wrote:

In general, to see if your USB to serial adapter would work in Linux with SimH 4.0 mods, do the following:

Type:

  ls -l /dev/ttyUSB*

You will either see no output or lines containing /dev/ttyUSBx when 'x' is a number starting at zero. Plug in your USB serial adapter into a USB port and repeat the 'ls' command. If your serial adapter is recognized, you will see a new device in the form of /dev/ttyUSBz where 'z' is one number higher than the highest 'x' you got before (or '0' if you didn't get any results first time around). If this is what you see, your device is recognized by Linux and you should be able to use it. In general, Linux is pretty good at recognizing USB serial ports.

Mike

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Jamie Cox <jamie...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm interested in adding a serial port in this way. What do you mean "regular USB serial ports"? I have a Keyspan USB-serial adapter USA-19Qi, for example. Any idea if that will work? I'd obviously need to get it working in Linux, first.

-Jamie

[Tom Lake]

Yes. I'm using Stretch 4.14 (not Stretch Lite)

[andy]

thanks for clarifying Tom.  I'm gonna grab one of the lava devices... more timesharing is needed! :-)

[Tom Lake]

That may not be too smooth if you use 9600 baud terminals. I have a Teletype ASR 33 at 110 baud and I keep my other terminals at 300 baud so it's pretty smooth.

Of course if all users are doing a lot of calculations at the same time, performance may suffer a bit. Still, it's great to have my four terminals running different BASIC programs at the same time!

[leosam]

Hi everyone!

This thread has been quiet for a while but I decided to post here since I'm encountering problems making my serial terminal work.

I've installed 2 USB TTL dongles that are attached to the MAX232 chip soldered as it should. 

I've tested the serial link outside of simh and it works: I can open minicom on the PI and on my laptop and send and receive as intended. 9600 8N1 without hardware flow control

I've properly configured my bootscript and simh sees my serial ports as it should:

sim> show serial

Serial devices:

 ser0 /dev/ttyAMA0

 ser1 /dev/ttyUSB0

 ser2 /dev/ttyUSB1

Open Serial Devices:

 DZ Ln00 /dev/ttyUSB0;9600-8N1 {) Config: 9600-8N1

 DZ Ln-1 /dev/ttyUSB1;9600-8N1 {) Config: 9600-8N1

The problem arises when I try using a terminal to access my 2.11 BSD login prompt:

1. I can type from my serial terminal and log into 2.11 BSD (when I type 'who' I can see myself logged on to tty00) but

2. nothing is printed on the serial terminal, coming from simh

I have the impression that BSD activates hardware flow control by default, as the same symptom happens when I have HW flow control on the pi side using minicom.

Any ideas on how o fix this?

Thank in advance!