Einstein's dream is dead

[John Clark]

In the August 7, 2024 issue of the journal Physical Review Letters is the strongest evidence ever reported that Einstein's dream of a quantum theory that is deterministic, realistic and local is dead; at least one of those three things must be false. They use something called "Hardy's Violation" that is a slight variation of Bell's Inequality that is a little easier for experimenters to use.  

By the way, when they say "local realism" is violated they are assuming a deterministic universe, that's why Objective Collapse Theories are still in the running for the title of the correct fundamental description of nature, they are not deterministic. Many Worlds is also still in the running because it is not realistic, and Pilot Wave Theory it's still in the running because it is not local.  As for Copenhagen, it's basically "shut up and calculate" so it can't win or lose because it's not playing the game. Einstein is the only clear loser in all this.

Loophole-free test of local realism via Hardy’s violation

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis

edd

[Giulio Prisco]

Thank you for sharing John. I'm already persuaded that local realism
is untenable, but it is always good to see more experimental evidence.
G.

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[John Clark]

On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 9:47 AM Giulio Prisco <giu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you for sharing John. I'm already persuaded that local realism
is untenable, but it is always good to see more experimental evidence.

Actually what they've proven is that local realism is untenable in a deterministic universe; that's why this experiment doesn't rule out objective collapse theories, they are local and realistic but not deterministic. You can't have determinism and localism and realism, you've got to get rid of at least one of those 3 things. Today nobody knows for sure which one of the 3 needs to go to the chopping block, my guess would be realism and that's why I'm a Many Worlds fan, but I could be wrong. 

John K Clark

[Giulio Prisco]

I chop (Laplacian) determinism and localism. Non-locality kills
Laplacian determinism but it is not incompatible with global
determinism. I keep realism in the sense that something exists and can
be known better.
G.

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[John Clark]

On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 10:58 AM Giulio Prisco <giu...@gmail.com> wrote:

 > I keep realism in the sense that something exists and can be known

In physics realism has a very specific technical meaning; something is realistic if it exists in one and only one state even before it is measured. Many Worlds is NOT realistic because it says before a thing is measured it exists in not one but in every quantum state that is consistent with Schrodinger's equation. An electron moves left and a version of Giulio Prisco will see it move left, and  an electron moves right and a version of  Giulio Prisco will see it move right, but nobody will ever see an electron turn into a proton because that would violate Schrodinger's equation. 

John K Clark

[Lawrence Crowell]

It really has been dead since John Bell in the mid-1960s and a bit later with Kochen-Specker. Since then the idea of local deterministic hidden variable physics has been zombie science.

LC

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[Lawrence Crowell]

Objective collapse theories have been ruled out. The GRW theory./interpretation failed experimental tests a few years ago.

LC 

[Lawrence Crowell]

Realism means that what is measured in a quantum measurement is the actual state of the system tiny or infinitesimal time before the measurement. This idea is not consistent with quantum mechanics.

LC

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[John Clark]

On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 6:38 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Realism means that what is measured in a quantum measurement is the actual state of the system tiny or infinitesimal time before the measurement.

As a definition for realism I think the above would be more accurate if the word "actual" were replaced by "only". 

 

> This idea is not consistent with quantum mechanics.

Many Worlds is not realistic, but nobody has ever found it to be inconsistent with Quantum Mechanics or with any experiment ever performed; that's why among physicists it's the second most popular Quantum Interpretation, after "Shut Up And Calculate" (a.k.a. Copenhagen, a.k.a. Bayes). Many Worlds is deterministic and local, if it had also been found to be realistic then Many Worlds would have been ruled out because it would be inconsistent with Bell type experiments, however I don't believe that has occurred.

I think Hugh Everett's Many Worlds theory is much closer to the truth than Niels Bohr's Many Words theory.

 John K Clark

3bo

[John Clark]

On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 6:36 PM Lawrence Crowell <goldenfield...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Objective collapse theories have been ruled out. The GRW theory./interpretation failed experimental tests a few years ago.

I read an article back in 2020 about Roger Penrose's theory of objective collapse being ruled out, but not GRW. Are you sure about that? 

John K Clark