Weird glosses for 穴だらけ (vs. other 〜だらけ)

[Adam Nohejl]

Hello,

I found a definition, which is definitely off, but it has been changed this way from one, which was better in my opinion. So I'm writing to the list instead of edition.

Currently 穴だらけ has the following glosses:

1. hole, aperture, opening, orifice
2. fault, flaw

For some reason, the glosses have been changed from adjective/attributive use (e.g. "being full of holes") to simple nouns, which doesn't reflect usage (could not find any occurrence as subject in BCCWJ), and more importantly meaning (だらけ means that there are many holes/flaws/..., that something is full of holes, and glosses like "orifice" and "aperture" are just misleading).

Additionally it doesn't correspond to other 〜だらけ entries:

• 皺だらけ wrinkled
• 毛だらけ hairy; furry
• 茨だらけ 1. thorny 2. miserable
• 血だらけ bloodstained; bloody; gory
• 泥だらけ covered in mud; mud-caked
• 虱だらけ lousy; lice-ridden; covered in lice

I would therefore suggest the following glosses for 穴だらけ

1. full of holes; porous; holey; leaky
2. full of flaws; full of loopholes

—or something along these lines (perhaps native English speakers will think of better ones). These are similar to what one can find in Eijiro:

https://eow.alc.co.jp/search?q=穴だらけ

I also have one more suggestion. Currently the 〜だらけ entries have several different sets of POS tags: most commonly (adj-no), but also (n,adj-no), (adj-no,adj-na) and (adj-no,adj-na,n).

I think they should be all (adj-no), because:

1. They are not full-fledged nouns (no occurrence of だらけ as a subject, i.e. followed by particle が in BCCWJ).
2. Sometimes だらけ is used as a na-adjective, but it's rather marginal. These are numbeers from BCCWJ:
   • 8 occurrences followed by な (not counting なの、なん)
   • 720 occurrences followed by の
   • vast majority of the rest followed by a copula or に
   • 1,957 total occurrences

I also could not find any use as a na-adjective in a dictionary.

Sorry for a long-winded post, hope it improves the dictionary

--
Adam Nohejl

[Jim Breen]

Thanks. I've proposed amendments based on your comments. See:
https://www.edrdg.org/jmdictdb/cgi-bin/entr.py?svc=jmdict&sid=&q=1856920
You can make such proposals directly via that interface.

I'll look at the POSs for the other 〜だらけ entries.

Jim

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--
Jim Breen
Adjunct Snr Research Fellow, Japanese Studies Centre, Monash University
http://www.jimbreen.org/
http://nihongo.monash.edu/

[Adam Nohejl]

Hi Jim,

Thank you. OK, I will use the interface next time.

I have noticed that you are refering to some numbers of occurrences in
the proposal. What corpus are they from? Is there a preferred corpus to
use as a reference for editing/submitting entries?

Best regards,

--
Adam Nohejl

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/edict-jmdict/CABHGxq6u3qqCX-mxDG3cJn%2Brxz41Kttu4%3DP852wSVRZUB47Tow%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ben Bullock]

On Thu, 8 Jul 2021 at 20:56, Jim Breen <jimb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks. I've proposed amendments based on your comments. See:
https://www.edrdg.org/jmdictdb/cgi-bin/entr.py?svc=jmdict&sid=&q=1856920
You can make such proposals directly via that interface.

I'll look at the POSs for the other 〜だらけ entries.

There was a discussion on the sci.lang.japan newsgroup a few years ago about this topic including contributions by muchan:

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.lang.japan/c/XErMtAHPgqo/m/nJq_1bLp2DEJ

The rest of the discussion is just bores nattering though.

[Jim Breen]

On Thu, 8 Jul 2021 at 23:46, Adam Nohejl wrote:
> I have noticed that you are refering to some numbers of occurrences in
> the proposal. What corpus are they from? Is there a preferred corpus to
> use as a reference for editing/submitting entries?

They are coming from the 2007 Google WWW n-gram corpus. The current
pages for looking up the counts are:
https://www.edrdg.org/~jwb/ngramcounts.html
http://nlp.cis.unimelb.edu.au/jwb/ngramcounts.html

The counts have been derived by aggregating the raw n-gram sequences,
then sorting them. For example, the count:
体操座りしていた 31
would have derived for the 6-gram: <体操 座り し て いた> which occurred 31
times in Google's trawl of WWW pages.

I should write a page explaining this a bit more. The data file with
all these counts is about 36Gb.

Jim

[Jim Breen]

A few years ago! That was 2004! I was only in my early middle age then.

And those blast-from-the-past names: muchan, Mike Cash, Kevin Gowan,
... I'll have to open another bottle of red or I'll start weeping.

Jim

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