Questions on cards that affect cost (LSJ)
Stone
We know Path of Paradox affects the cost. Path of Paradox : "Ravnos burn 1
less blood when playing cards that require Chimerstry [chi]. "
Before the RTR, Ankara Citadel didn't change the cost
(http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/bc7fa3f771
523017). Now it does, according to the Nocturn example in
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/f1d08997ed515634 .
Ankara Citadel : "The vampire with this location pays only half of the blood
cost for any cards he or she plays (round down)."
1/ Now consider sup. Terror Frenzy : "Opposing vampire burns an additional
blood when playing combat cards this combat". As of
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/35a6d752e8448786 :
"Terror Frenzy. Terror Frenzy doesn't increase the cost. [RTR 01-MAY-2000] "
Let's say that Gabrin has 1 blood and his opponent in combat played sup.
Terror Frenzy on Gabrin. Path of Paradox in play. Gabrin plays Apparition.
How much blood does Gabrin burn ?
2/ If the Apparition is cancelled by Direct Intervention, does Gabrin still
burn a blood due to TF ? According to
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/50a3756e527ca44d ,
it's a "burn blood" effect that can be ordered with the payment of the cost.
Is it still true, even though it has the same kind of wording than a Path
("burn...when playing") ?
(response from private e-mail to LSJ : The errata: TF is a post-play
blood-burning penalty, even though it is written with the same template as
other cost-increasing (or cost-decreasing) effects, like Secure Haven and
the Paths.)
3/ Secure Haven : "Any Methuselah burns an additional pool when playing
master cards on (or that target) this minion"
The text is similar to TF, in that it has "burns...when playing".
You play Minion Tap on a vampire with Secure Haven. The Minion Tap is
cancelled by Sudden Reversal. Do you still burn a pool due to the Secure
Haven, yes or no ?
thanks
Stone
LSJ
> Some questions related to the RTR 7/7/7 and cards that affect cost.
>
> We know Path of Paradox affects the cost. Path of Paradox : "Ravnos burn 1
> less blood when playing cards that require Chimerstry [chi]. "
> Before the RTR, Ankara Citadel didn't change the cost
> (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/bc7fa3f771
> 523017). Now it does, according to the Nocturn example in
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/f1d08997ed515634 .
> Ankara Citadel : "The vampire with this location pays only half of the blood
> cost for any cards he or she plays (round down)."
>
> 1/ Now consider sup. Terror Frenzy : "Opposing vampire burns an additional
> blood when playing combat cards this combat". As of
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/35a6d752e8448786 :
> "Terror Frenzy. Terror Frenzy doesn't increase the cost. [RTR 01-MAY-2000] "
And now I'm going to change the answer I gave you in email, having had
additional time to ponder the situation. (Sorry about that.)
Given the wording on TF using the same template as the Paths, that means that
the 7/7/7 RTR applies to TF as much as the paths -- they all affect card costs.
> Let's say that Gabrin has 1 blood and his opponent in combat played sup.
> Terror Frenzy on Gabrin. Path of Paradox in play. Gabrin plays Apparition.
> How much blood does Gabrin burn ?
0 (1 base cost -1 for the Path -1 for Gabrin +1 for Terror Frenzy).
> 2/ If the Apparition is cancelled by Direct Intervention, does Gabrin still
> burn a blood due to TF ? According to
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/50a3756e527ca44d ,
> it's a "burn blood" effect that can be ordered with the payment of the cost.
> Is it still true, even though it has the same kind of wording than a Path
> ("burn...when playing") ?
Moot, with the above answer (reversing what I had said in email).
He still burns 0.
> (response from private e-mail to LSJ : The errata: TF is a post-play
> blood-burning penalty, even though it is written with the same template as
> other cost-increasing (or cost-decreasing) effects, like Secure Haven and
> the Paths.)
>
> 3/ Secure Haven : "Any Methuselah burns an additional pool when playing
> master cards on (or that target) this minion"
> The text is similar to TF, in that it has "burns...when playing".
Moreover, it is similar to the text on Paths.
It affects the cost.
> You play Minion Tap on a vampire with Secure Haven. The Minion Tap is
> cancelled by Sudden Reversal. Do you still burn a pool due to the Secure
> Haven, yes or no ?
No.
Salem
> Stone wrote:
>> 1/ Now consider sup. Terror Frenzy : "Opposing vampire burns an
>> additional
>> blood when playing combat cards this combat". As of
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/35a6d752e8448786
>> :
>> "Terror Frenzy. Terror Frenzy doesn't increase the cost. [RTR
>> 01-MAY-2000] "
>
> And now I'm going to change the answer I gave you in email, having had
> additional time to ponder the situation. (Sorry about that.)
>
> Given the wording on TF using the same template as the Paths, that means
> that the 7/7/7 RTR applies to TF as much as the paths -- they all affect
> card costs.
So just checking....a vampire with 1 blood, who is subject to a Terror
Frenzy at superior, cannot play combat cards that cost 1 blood (as those
cards will have their cost increased to 2)?
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
Stone
in that same RTR, we have "Tshwane+Pier 13, Charisma+Summoning, etc, always
seemed like they *should*
work... " due to "All cost-affecting cards operate no matter how the card is
played ("as normal"
or otherwise). "
-If Joshua Tarnopolski (Allies and retainers cost Joshua 1 less pool or
blood to recruit or employ) has Animalism, Ankara Citadel (The vampire with
this location pays only half of the blood cost for any cards he or she plays
(round down).) and plays Pack Alpha (Employ an animal retainer from your
hand before range is determined. ) on Raptor (normal cost : 2 blood) : do we
have the cost like this :
2 (base) divided by 2 (Ankara) = 1
1 - 1 (Joshua's special) = 0
?
-If Zhenga (When Zhenga announces a recruit action or employ action, she may
burn X blood. If the action succeeds, she may recruit and employ up to X
additional allies and retainers from your hand (pay cost as normal).) uses
her special (and burns 4 blood) on 4 Raven Spy (provided she has
animalism...), does she get them for free (well, barring the burning of
blood to activate her special) if she has Ankara ?
thanks
Stone
Oortje
> Additional questions :
> in that same RTR, we have "Tshwane+Pier 13, Charisma+Summoning, etc, always
> seemed like they *should*
> work... " due to "All cost-affecting cards operate no matter how the card is
> played ("as normal"
> or otherwise). "
>
> -If Joshua Tarnopolski (Allies and retainers cost Joshua 1 less pool or
> blood to recruit or employ) has Animalism, Ankara Citadel (The vampire with
> this location pays only half of the blood cost for any cards he or she plays
> (round down).) and plays Pack Alpha (Employ an animal retainer from your
> hand before range is determined. ) on Raptor (normal cost : 2 blood) : do we
> have the cost like this :
> 2 (base) divided by 2 (Ankara) = 1
> 1 - 1 (Joshua's special) = 0
This is correct. First multiply/divide then add/supstract.
> -If Zhenga (When Zhenga announces a recruit action or employ action, she may
> burn X blood. If the action succeeds, she may recruit and employ up to X
> additional allies and retainers from your hand (pay cost as normal).) uses
> her special (and burns 4 blood) on 4 Raven Spy (provided she has
> animalism...), does she get them for free (well, barring the burning of
> blood to activate her special) if she has Ankara ?
Ankara reduces the cost of induvidual cards.
so 4 ravenspies cost each 0.
Clément
> Given the wording on TF using the same template as the Paths, that means that
> the 7/7/7 RTR applies to TF as much as the paths -- they all affect card costs.
Just to be sure about how I tell the difference between cards that
affect costs and cards that don't.
Other than mentioning "cost" explicitly, I understand now that "burn
blood" means "cost" when it applies to "when playing cards" or to "to
play cards". Is this correct?
If so, Dragos, for example, won't have to pay the extra blood of
Terror Frenzy (as explicited in the 7/7/7 RTR), but he still has to
burn blood for effects like superior Chiropteran Marauder.
Thank you very much in advance.
Abraço,
Luiz Mello
Brazil VTES NC
--
IV VTES Brazilian National Championship
Vitória, October 12 to 14, 2007
http://cbr2007.vtesbrasil.com
LSJ
> On 29 aug, 15:25, "Stone" <mc_judge_st...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>> Additional questions :
>> in that same RTR, we have "Tshwane+Pier 13, Charisma+Summoning, etc, always
>> seemed like they *should*
>> work... " due to "All cost-affecting cards operate no matter how the card is
>> played ("as normal"
>> or otherwise). "
>>
>> -If Joshua Tarnopolski (Allies and retainers cost Joshua 1 less pool or
>> blood to recruit or employ) has Animalism, Ankara Citadel (The vampire with
>> this location pays only half of the blood cost for any cards he or she plays
>> (round down).) and plays Pack Alpha (Employ an animal retainer from your
>> hand before range is determined. ) on Raptor (normal cost : 2 blood) : do we
>> have the cost like this :
>> 2 (base) divided by 2 (Ankara) = 1
>> 1 - 1 (Joshua's special) = 0
>
> This is correct. First multiply/divide then add/supstract.
Correct.
>> -If Zhenga (When Zhenga announces a recruit action or employ action, she may
>> burn X blood. If the action succeeds, she may recruit and employ up to X
>> additional allies and retainers from your hand (pay cost as normal).) uses
>> her special (and burns 4 blood) on 4 Raven Spy (provided she has
>> animalism...), does she get them for free (well, barring the burning of
>> blood to activate her special) if she has Ankara ?
>
> Ankara reduces the cost of induvidual cards.
> so 4 ravenspies cost each 0.
Correct.
LSJ
> On Aug 29, 8:59 am, LSJ wrote:
>> Given the wording on TF using the same template as the Paths, that means that
>> the 7/7/7 RTR applies to TF as much as the paths -- they all affect card costs.
>
> Just to be sure about how I tell the difference between cards that
> affect costs and cards that don't.
>
> Other than mentioning "cost" explicitly, I understand now that "burn
> blood" means "cost" when it applies to "when playing cards" or to "to
> play cards". Is this correct?
>
> If so, Dragos, for example, won't have to pay the extra blood of
> Terror Frenzy (as explicited in the 7/7/7 RTR), but he still has to
> burn blood for effects like superior Chiropteran Marauder.
Correct.
Jeff Kuta
While I don't contest the ruling at all, I just want to point out that
it's yet another small kick in the pants for Quietus which had one of
the few cards explicitly stating that costs are increased by "an
additional blood": Wave of Lethargy.
Wave of Lethargy
1 blood
qui: Only usable before range is determined. Maneuvers and presses
cost the opposing vampire an additional blood to play this round. A
vampire may play only one Wave of Lethargy each round of combat.
QUI: As above, and strike cards cost the opposing vampire an
additional blood to play this round.
Jeff
LSJ
> While I don't contest the ruling at all, I just want to point out that
> it's yet another small kick in the pants for Quietus which had one of
> the few cards explicitly stating that costs are increased by "an
> additional blood": Wave of Lethargy.
How is that a kick in the pants?
Jeff Kuta
Because Wave explicitly made cards cost more, while other cards just
"burned blood." Prior to this clarification of the template, a vampire
with one blood under a Wave of Lethargy (at QUI) could not play
Majesty, while one under Terror Frenzy (at ANI) could. Now Terror
Frenzy is "better" and that makes Wave worse by comparison, not by
intrinsic value.
Ergo small kick in the pants.
Jeff
Jozxyqk
> Stone wrote:
> > Some questions related to the RTR 7/7/7 and cards that affect cost.
> >
> > We know Path of Paradox affects the cost. Path of Paradox : "Ravnos burn 1
> > less blood when playing cards that require Chimerstry [chi]. "
> > Before the RTR, Ankara Citadel didn't change the cost
> > (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/bc7fa3f771
> > 523017). Now it does, according to the Nocturn example in
> > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/f1d08997ed515634 .
> > Ankara Citadel : "The vampire with this location pays only half of the blood
> > cost for any cards he or she plays (round down)."
> >
> > 1/ Now consider sup. Terror Frenzy : "Opposing vampire burns an additional
> > blood when playing combat cards this combat". As of
> > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/35a6d752e8448786 :
> > "Terror Frenzy. Terror Frenzy doesn't increase the cost. [RTR 01-MAY-2000] "
> And now I'm going to change the answer I gave you in email, having had
> additional time to ponder the situation. (Sorry about that.)
> Given the wording on TF using the same template as the Paths, that means that
> the 7/7/7 RTR applies to TF as much as the paths -- they all affect card costs.
What about Seeds of Corruption?
"...he or she burns 1 [or 2 or 3] additional blood for each action he or she attempts."
This blood is burned when the action is attempted, not resolved.. but does it still
count as affecting the cost?
LSJ
"other cards" mostly worked to increase cost. TF was the outlier, not Wave.
LSJ
> What about Seeds of Corruption?
> "...he or she burns 1 [or 2 or 3] additional blood for each action he or she attempts."
>
> This blood is burned when the action is attempted, not resolved.. but does it still
> count as affecting the cost?
No.
Seeds affects attempting actions, not playing cards.
Salem
also, just because another card becomes better, doesn't mean Wave of
Lethargy is now any worse. It still does EXACTLY THE SAME THING as it
did before. i fail to see how that makes it 'worse'.
It's like if the guy in the cubicle next to you at work gets a pay rise
and you don't, and you suddenly start saying 'aw man, now I can't afford
to eat lunch'.
Stone
It's known that an Embrace with 1 blood can attempt an Embrace action if
Ravnos Carnival is in play with enough counters.
According to
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/4cc8c8005bec0ea4
Ravnos Cache and Baldesar's ability activate only upon "real" payment of the
cost (i.e. if, say, an equipment card was DI'ed, no counters from the Ravnos
Cache would burn and the Cache is not tapped, nor would the "once each turn"
restriction of Baldesar activate). For Masochism, the counters on it are
burned even if a card is DI'ed.
Now, what happens if a player controls Baldesar and a vamp with 1 blood who
attempts to equip with Palatial Estate (costs 2 blood), but the PE is DI'ed
? On one hand, Baldesar's ability isn't supposed to activate, but on the
other hand, the vamp with 1 blood could never have attempted the action if
not for Baldesar. Same with replacing Baldesar wy the Cache.
Or maybe the vamp wasn't allowed to attempt equipping in the first place,
and it's only allowed in the special case of Ravnos Carnival ?
Stone
LSJ
Good point.
Probably the allowance for taking actions you cannot afford based on possible
future reduction is in error and should be corrected.
I'll put this on the RT list.