House of Sorrow + Parthenon and Ventrue Headquarters
henrik
I'd just like a quick check on whether The Parthenon (and cards with
similar wordings) can be used twice during the same turn (or
referendum in the case of Ventrue Headquarters etc.).
I'm guessing no, but searching left me with some contradicting
answers.
Card texts:
Parthenon, The
Type: Master
Cost: 2 pool
Master: unique location.
Tap during your master phase to get an additional master phase action.
House of Sorrow
Type: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master: unique location.
Tap to untap any card you control that is not a minion. If you do so,
neither that card nor this location untap as normal on your next untap
phase.
Ventrue Headquarters
Type: Master
Requires: Ventrue
Cost: 1 pool
Master: unique location.
During a referendum, you may tap this card to gain 3 votes.
The Lasombra
>Good morning!
Good afternoon, good evening and good night!
>I'd just like a quick check on whether The Parthenon (and cards with
>similar wordings) can be used twice during the same turn (or
>referendum in the case of Ventrue Headquarters etc.).
Yes, if they have a Tap To condition.
See also:
Heidelberg Castle, Germany + House of Sorrows
Heidelberg Castle, Germany
Master
[2 Pool]
Master: unique location.
Tap to move blood, equipment cards and/or retainers between any two
ready vampires you control. (You choose the amount of blood you move
and which cards you transfer.) Cannot be used during an action.
>Card texts:
>Parthenon, The
>Type: Master
>Cost: 2 pool
>Master: unique location.
>Tap during your master phase to get an additional master phase action.
A good plan.
>House of Sorrow
>Type: Master
>Cost: 1 pool
>Master: unique location.
>Tap to untap any card you control that is not a minion. If you do so,
>neither that card nor this location untap as normal on your next untap
>phase.
The master plan.
>Ventrue Headquarters
>Type: Master
>Requires: Ventrue
>Cost: 1 pool
>Master: unique location.
>During a referendum, you may tap this card to gain 3 votes.
+6 votes is always fun.
See also:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a1cd56698dd08627
henrik
> >Good morning!
>
> Good afternoon, good evening and good night!
>
> >I'd just like a quick check on whether The Parthenon (and cards with
> >similar wordings) can be used twice during the same turn (or
> >referendum in the case of Ventrue Headquarters etc.).
>
> Yes, if they have a Tap To condition.
They have a "during X, tap to gain Y" condition, which usually means
you can only use them once each X. That restriction seems to apply to
Enkil Cog as well:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/5dd172e0dc4d61e5
> See also:
> Heidelberg Castle, Germany + House of Sorrows
>
> Heidelberg Castle, Germany
> Master
> [2 Pool]
> Master: unique location.
> Tap to move blood, equipment cards and/or retainers between any two
> ready vampires you control. (You choose the amount of blood you move
> and which cards you transfer.) Cannot be used during an action.
Heidelberg doesn't have the "during" part which Parthenon and Ventrue
HQ has though.
Kevin M.
> henrik wrote:
>> I'd just like a quick check on whether The Parthenon (and cards
>> with similar wordings) can be used twice during the same turn (or
>> referendum in the case of Ventrue Headquarters etc.).
>
> Yes, if they have a Tap To condition.
>
> See also:
> Heidelberg Castle, Germany + House of Sorrows
Perhaps this is a candidate for the FAQ, Jeff, since I'm confused.
Wouldn't this
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/499105ca5f69dad4?hl=en
suggest your "Tap to"
condition may not always enable HoS? (as Tower of London has
a similar 'Tap To' condition on it)
I'm unsure, but perhaps the thing that enables HoS is the
target card *not* having a 'When' on it? (i.e. a timing window)
e.g.
House of Sorrow =\=> Tower of London
House of Sorrow =\=> Warsaw Station
House of Sorrow =\=> Church of Vindicated Faith
House of Sorrow =\=> The Black Throne pool gain
House of Sorrow => Ventrue Headquarters
House of Sorrow => Heidelburg Castle
House of Sorrow => Parthenon
House of Sorrow => Nocturn Theater
House of Sorrow => The Black Throne vote gain
Though my 'When' theory breaks down via Vigil: The Thin Line, since
I believe that you should be able to give a defender +1 intercept twice.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
The Lasombra
>>> I'd just like a quick check on whether The Parthenon (and cards
>>> with similar wordings) can be used twice during the same turn (or
>>> referendum in the case of Ventrue Headquarters etc.).
>Perhaps this is a candidate for the FAQ, Jeff, since I'm confused.
House of Sorrows can always be used to untap the target card.
The only question is whether you can use the other card again.
Henrik is right in his "during X" second tap restriction.
Card text on the untapped card should make it clear if it can be used
more than once, now that this untap any non-minion card effect has
been introduced to the game.
LSJ
> On Aug 28, 2:18 am, The Lasombra <TheLasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'd just like a quick check on whether The Parthenon (and cards with
>>> similar wordings) can be used twice during the same turn (or
>>> referendum in the case of Ventrue Headquarters etc.).
>> Yes, if they have a Tap To condition.
>
> They have a "during X, tap to gain Y" condition, which usually means
> you can only use them once each X. That restriction seems to apply to
> Enkil Cog as well:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/5dd172e0dc4d61e5
Correct.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/828a92eba9618e94
>> See also:
>> Heidelberg Castle, Germany + House of Sorrows
>>
>> Heidelberg Castle, Germany
>> Master
>> [2 Pool]
>> Master: unique location.
>> Tap to move blood, equipment cards and/or retainers between any two
>> ready vampires you control. (You choose the amount of blood you move
>> and which cards you transfer.) Cannot be used during an action.
>
> Heidelberg doesn't have the "during" part which Parthenon and Ventrue
> HQ has though.
Correct.
Johann von Doom
> Card text on the untapped card should make it clear if it can be used
> more than once, now that this untap any non-minion card effect has
> been introduced to the game.
What about Elysian Fields and Power Structure, both of which use the
phrase "...for the current action" rather than "during"?
John Eno
Kevin M.
> "Kevin M." wrote:
>> Perhaps this is a candidate for the FAQ, Jeff, since I'm confused.
>
> House of Sorrows can always be used to untap the target card.
>
> The only question is whether you can use the other card again.
>
> Henrik is right in his "during X" second tap restriction.
Hmmm, so The Parthenon and Ventrue Headquarters are NOT
immediately re-tappable if untapped via HoS, since they use the
During X Do Y format?
If they ARE, could you or someone state a rule which I may use
to explain tok players how they can know what is immediately
re-tappable if untapped via HoS? Thanks.
Blooded Sand
> The Lasombra wrote:
> > "Kevin M." wrote:
> >> Perhaps this is a candidate for the FAQ, Jeff, since I'm confused.
>
> > House of Sorrows can always be used to untap the target card.
>
> > The only question is whether you can use the other card again.
>
> > Henrik is right in his "during X" second tap restriction.
>
> Hmmm, so The Parthenon and Ventrue Headquarters are NOT
> immediately re-tappable if untapped via HoS, since they use the
> During X Do Y format?
>
> If they ARE, could you or someone state a rule which I may use
> to explain tok players how they can know what is immediately
> re-tappable if untapped via HoS? Thanks.
Anything that does not contain the During X do Y templating, eg
Parthenon, you may immediately retap.
> Please buy my cards!http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
And ooooooh! Sales post!!11!!1!!!!1one!!! ;)
Kevin M.
> On Aug 28, 6:08 am, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
>> The Lasombra wrote:
>>> "Kevin M." wrote:
>>>> Perhaps this is a candidate for the FAQ, Jeff, since I'm confused.
>>
>>> House of Sorrows can always be used to untap the target card.
>>
>>> The only question is whether you can use the other card again.
>>
>>> Henrik is right in his "during X" second tap restriction.
>>
>> Hmmm, so The Parthenon and Ventrue Headquarters are NOT
>> immediately re-tappable if untapped via HoS, since they use the
>> During X Do Y format?
>>
>> If they ARE, could you or someone state a rule which I may use
>> to explain tok players how they can know what is immediately
>> re-tappable if untapped via HoS? Thanks.
>
> Anything that does not contain the During X do Y templating, eg
> Parthenon, you may immediately retap.
Well, it seemed like Lasombra was saying you *could* use
those kinds of cards, and I wasn't sure if he had retracted that,
since I can't seem to grok House of Sorrow.
>> Please buy my cards!http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
>
> And ooooooh! Sales post!!11!!1!!!!1one!!! ;)
Untrue. Due to Bakija's incessant complaining on the subject,
he long ago suggested that people put such things in their .sig,
which I have done instead of posting a separate message.
Which would cause more complaining...
NOTE TO BAKIJA:
This reply does not in any way constitute a 'sales post' on my part
nor does it constitute on your part a need to reply. Fight it! ;)
witness1
> Blooded Sand wrote:
> > On Aug 28, 6:08 am, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
> >> The Lasombra wrote:
> >>> "Kevin M." wrote:
> >>>> Perhaps this is a candidate for the FAQ, Jeff, since I'm confused.
>
> >>> House of Sorrows can always be used to untap the target card.
>
> >>> The only question is whether you can use the other card again.
>
> >>> Henrik is right in his "during X" second tap restriction.
>
> >> Hmmm, so The Parthenon and Ventrue Headquarters are NOT
> >> immediately re-tappable if untapped via HoS, since they use the
> >> During X Do Y format?
>
> >> If they ARE, could you or someone state a rule which I may use
> >> to explain tok players how they can know what is immediately
> >> re-tappable if untapped via HoS? Thanks.
>
> > Anything that does not contain the During X do Y templating, eg
> > Parthenon, you may immediately retap.
>
> Well, it seemed like Lasombra was saying you *could* use
> those kinds of cards, and I wasn't sure if he had retracted that,
> since I can't seem to grok House of Sorrow.
"during X do Y" means limit once per X, no matter how often you untap,
but many cards do not use this template.
Also 1.6.1 reminds us that only effects which either explicitly usable
in the "as played" window (or effects that explicitly enable other
effects to be played, such as Forced Awakening) may be used in the "as
played" window, so House of Sorrow is not usable in that window.
Those are the two major limitations on House of Sorrow. You can use
the same "tap to" effect twice on the same trigger in most (all?)
other cases.
-witness1
witness1
Oops. Looks like I missed a reversal somewhere along the line.
-witness1
henrik
> > Well, it seemed like Lasombra was saying you *could* use
> > those kinds of cards, and I wasn't sure if he had retracted that,
> > since I can't seem to grok House of Sorrow.
>
> "during X do Y" means limit once per X, no matter how often you untap,
> but many cards do not use this template.
>
> Also 1.6.1 reminds us that only effects which either explicitly usable
> in the "as played" window (or effects that explicitly enable other
> effects to be played, such as Forced Awakening) may be used in the "as
> played" window, so House of Sorrow is not usable in that window.
>
> Those are the two major limitations on House of Sorrow. You can use
> the same "tap to" effect twice on the same trigger in most (all?)
> other cases.
That doesn't seem to be true though, considering LSJ's answer to the
question about Tower of London:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/499105ca5f69dad4
House of Sorrow's usability seems to be going downhill fast these days.
Johann von Doom
> House of Sorrow's usability seems to be going downhill fast these days.
The most use I've gotten out of it has been with the stealth and
intercept permanents, like Elysian Fields, Malajit, Aranthebes, KRCG,
etc. If it can't be used with them (still waiting for a response about
that), yeah, it gets quite a bit more cornercase, to the point that I
wonder what it was designed for in the first place.
John Eno
henrik
wrote:
Well, even if you won't be able to use those cards twice during the
same action there'll still be the possibility of using them twice on a
single turn (which should be possible for the majority of tapable
cards). Giving two lasombras 1 stealth each might be nice etc.
And some cards, like Aranthebes and Club Zombie, has effects for just
being untapped so you might want to untap them even if you can't or
doesn't want to use their tap effect again (it also lessens the
negative effect of House of Sorrow).
Johann von Doom
> Well, even if you won't be able to use those cards twice during the
> same action there'll still be the possibility of using them twice on a
> single turn (which should be possible for the majority of tapable
> cards). Giving two lasombras 1 stealth each might be nice etc.
>
> And some cards, like Aranthebes and Club Zombie, has effects for just
> being untapped so you might want to untap them even if you can't or
> doesn't want to use their tap effect again (it also lessens the
> negative effect of House of Sorrow).
True enough. I'd still rather have those options AND the ability to
use those cards twice during an action, given House of Sorrow's cost
and drawback, though. :)
John Eno
Johann von Doom
wrote:
> What about Elysian Fields and Power Structure, both of which use the
> phrase "...for the current action" rather than "during"?
I never did get an answer to this question.
Do cards with "for the current action" text use the same rule as cards
which strictly adhere to the "during X, do Y" template?
John Eno
LSJ
The rule regarding what the "during X, do Y" template means only applies to
cards with that template.
"for the current action" means exactly that.
Johann von Doom
> The rule regarding what the "during X, do Y" template means only applies to
> cards with that template.
>
> "for the current action" means exactly that.
Great. Thanks.
John Eno
Johannes Walch
Try it with Vigilance.
It�s awesome.
Johann von Doom
> Try it with Vigilance.
> It´s awesome.
Oh, snap! Good call, man.
John Eno