Re: GWT future

[James Horsley]

Google I/O 2012 - The History and Future of Google Web Toolkit ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOf27ez_Hvg )

On 23 July 2012 08:14, AG <arvind....@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm an Architect and we have been looking to port our legacy HTML w/ Java Script based web app  (with java backend) to a next generation web application. We are a java shop so GWT is very popular with our developers and I have been so called GWT fan-boy all along.

However, lately I'm strongly considering moving away from GWT. Following are my observations that are scaring me to start looking for GWT alternatives:

1. Larry Page has been killing no-so-happening (or revenue generating) projects from google. I was reading that 30+ projects have already been killed/shelved ever since Larry became CEO.

  -- I understand the need for this and I also understand that GWT currently enjoys a healthy developer community. 

2. DART - Looks like its the next big thing within google to develop web applications. As a google outsider, at least this is what it seems like. Google IO 2012 has no sessions for GWT while DART had several and there is even a session to convert GWT apps to DART.

3. The latest update to Google Developer portal (http://developers.google.com) has no direct links to GWT. The web development section goes to chrome. 

I think the GWT team can address some of my concerns but it would be great if Google's management can stand behind GWT as a platform of choice for web development - similar to how Microsoft stands behind theirs development platforms. 

AG

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[Richard]

I suspect you'll never get a promise out of Google.  However, GWT isn't so much an internal project anymore as it moves to become more community-driven, so hopefully that lowers the chances of dying off. Hopefully.

And Google is hiring for GWT:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/110412141990454266397/posts/Nvdeq3vR7Fr 

[Ed]

I understand your fear, but your arguments are based on old info and as such incorrect.

I had the same fear before the IO sessions.

Not anymore as GWT isn't a google-only-project. It's an external opensource project now, in control of some strong players.

It still gone be an existing year, but Google isn't in control of killing GWT anymore... 

Let's talk again in a year and then look back if the current changes are a good thing or bad thing.... I can't predict the future...

[Rob]

The reports of GWT's death have been greatly exaggerated.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=191570

[Andrei]

A few thoughts on the future of GWT.

1. GWT, as we currently know it, will die. It will be replaced by a more "native" way of writing apps for the web. This process will take years. Hopefully, GWT will also adjust, keeping its relevance for a long time. Elemental is the step in that direction.

2. Google wants to kill Java. It started with a lawsuit from Oracle - Google responded by launching Dart and Go. It won't be clear for at least another year if either Dart or Go become viable alternatives to Java. I will not be surprised if both of these efforts will be quietly abandoned by Google now that the threat from Oracle is over. They will most likely make no such decision any time soon, but I would not recommend starting any major projects in Dart for at least another year.

3. Even though GWT is not as enthusiastically supported by Google as it should be (in my opinion), I would certainly recommend against forcing your team to learn a completely new platform. If you are a Java shop, GWT is the best available option for any project starting this year.

4. Web browsers have really matured (i.e. stabilized) over the past couple of years. Unless you are building a cutting-edge 3D game or a web-based replacement for Photoshop, your new GWT app will stay relevant for a decade. It will morph, like all good projects do, but GWT is a very solid foundation for data manipulation, i18n, history management, and page rendering. And you can add as much (or as little) HTML5 and CSS3 on the presentation side as you want - I don't feel like GWT is restricting me in any way.

Andrei

[Thomas Broyer]

On Friday, July 27, 2012 4:53:43 PM UTC+2, Andrei wrote:

A few thoughts on the future of GWT.

1. GWT, as we currently know it, will die. It will be replaced by a more "native" way of writing apps for the web. This process will take years. Hopefully, GWT will also adjust, keeping its relevance for a long time. Elemental is the step in that direction.

2. Google wants to kill Java. It started with a lawsuit from Oracle - Google responded by launching Dart and Go. It won't be clear for at least another year if either Dart or Go become viable alternatives to Java. I will not be surprised if both of these efforts will be quietly abandoned by Google now that the threat from Oracle is over. They will most likely make no such decision any time soon, but I would not recommend starting any major projects in Dart for at least another year.

I absolutely do NOT agree with the above two points.

Dart isn't there to replace GWT, it's been created to compete with JavaScript (and compile to JavaScript for a smooth transition: you don't want to code your app twice, right?) because the dynamic nature of JavaScript makes it really hard to optimize JS engines.

And Go has been created to compete with C++, at least for some usage of it (http://commandcenter.blogspot.fr/2012/06/less-is-exponentially-more.html)

Finally, I cannot see a single reason Google would like to kill Java. Sure there was the Oracle lawsuit, but Google has too much dependency on Java. Switching over from Java would likely kill Android, and could cost Google way too much to be a viable move, unless Google would have no other choice (e.g. if Oracle had won the case, but then Oracle would have killed Java, not the other way around).

3. Even though GWT is not as enthusiastically supported by Google as it should be (in my opinion), I would certainly recommend against forcing your team to learn a completely new platform. If you are a Java shop, GWT is the best available option for any project starting this year.

4. Web browsers have really matured (i.e. stabilized) over the past couple of years. Unless you are building a cutting-edge 3D game or a web-based replacement for Photoshop, your new GWT app will stay relevant for a decade. It will morph, like all good projects do, but GWT is a very solid foundation for data manipulation, i18n, history management, and page rendering. And you can add as much (or as little) HTML5 and CSS3 on the presentation side as you want - I don't feel like GWT is restricting me in any way.

+1 to that though (even though you'd have to recompile your app regularly against the updated versions of GWT if you want it to last "a decade": browsers have matured, but GWT still has to handle each one of them specifically; in the future maybe we'd have a single permutation across all browsers, but until then, GWT will have adapt to each new browser version, and your app would have to be recompiled with the newer version of GWT to take advantage of it.

[Joseph Lust]

it would be great if Google's management can stand behind GWT as a platform of choice for web development - similar to how Microsoft stands behind theirs development platforms. 

-1

Tell that to any Silverlight developers out there.

Sincerely,

Joseph

[funkforce]

Thomas,

Reading this:

but until then, GWT will have adapt to each new browser version, and your app would have to be recompiled with the newer version of GWT to take advantage of it. 

Do you meant that if I deploy an app compiled with GWT 2.4 today and in a few weeks a new browser version is released , that app wont work with the new browser? 

Regards 

FF

[Thomas Broyer]

Generally it should work, but it cannot be guaranteed: workarounds now breaking, etc. IE10 is going to be a major change though, so you'll either have to use the IE=9 mode, or recompile with a newer GWT.

[funkforce]

Thanks Thomas,

But what do you mean by  IE=9 mode ?

[Richard]

IE10 will be able to work as if it's a previous version.  This page should explain it:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff955275(v=vs.85).aspx 

[funkforce]

Thanks!

[David]

Anyone have insight as to the future of gwt-platform?

[Andy Stevko]

David,

Its a "BUY-long"  on my list. 

Seeing the huge line of peeps waiting for the "history & future" session was a sure signal that there is a lot of interest (outside of google).

The volume of GWT recruiter hits on my LinkedIn profile means there is new work being done,

Moving to an external F/OSS respository and master commiters will increase the velocity of the framework rather than waiting months & years for google to vet the commits to protect the stability of their internal systems.  (see my signature for my philosophy) 

Not to say its a sure bet. Growing up is hard to do...

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 7:56 AM, David <lev...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anyone have insight as to the future of gwt-platform?

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===========

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough." M. Andretti

[David]

That would be gwt-platform as in "gwtP"  http://code.google.com/p/gwt-platform.

I'm not looking for comparisons to other MVP solutions.  I'm just wondering if gwtP is something that will continue to be developed.
thanks. 

On Wednesday, August 8, 2012 1:20:19 PM UTC-4, Stevko wrote:

David,

Its a "BUY-long"  on my list. 

Seeing the huge line of peeps waiting for the "history & future" session was a sure signal that there is a lot of interest (outside of google).

The volume of GWT recruiter hits on my LinkedIn profile means there is new work being done,

Moving to an external F/OSS respository and master commiters will increase the velocity of the framework rather than waiting months & years for google to vet the commits to protect the stability of their internal systems.  (see my signature for my philosophy) 

Not to say its a sure bet. Growing up is hard to do...

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 7:56 AM, David <lev...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anyone have insight as to the future of gwt-platform?

--

[Sydney]

gwtp should release a 0.8 or 1.0 version soon. See https://groups.google.com/d/topic/gwt-platform/h-4KPGKFIoM/discussion

[Ümit Seren]

Powerdrill a tool used internally by Google is based on GWT. 

http://vldb.org/pvldb/vol5/p1436_alexanderhall_vldb2012.pdf

https://plus.google.com/+ResearchatGoogle/posts/UaDPdYu2q1u

On Monday, July 23, 2012 9:14:49 AM UTC+2, AG wrote:

I'm an Architect and we have been looking to port our legacy HTML w/ Java Script based web app  (with java backend) to a next generation web application. We are a java shop so GWT is very popular with our developers and I have been so called GWT fan-boy all along.

However, lately I'm strongly considering moving away from GWT. Following are my observations that are scaring me to start looking for GWT alternatives:

1. Larry Page has been killing no-so-happening (or revenue generating) projects from google. I was reading that 30+ projects have already been killed/shelved ever since Larry became CEO.

  -- I understand the need for this and I also understand that GWT currently enjoys a healthy developer community. 

2. DART - Looks like its the next big thing within google to develop web applications. As a google outsider, at least this is what it seems like. Google IO 2012 has no sessions for GWT while DART had several and there is even a session to convert GWT apps to DART.

3. The latest update to Google Developer portal (http://developers.google.com) has no direct links to GWT. The web development section goes to chrome. 

I think the GWT team can address some of my concerns but it would be great if Google's management can stand behind GWT as a platform of choice for web development - similar to how Microsoft stands behind theirs development platforms. 

AG