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Rebazar Tarzs equals ...
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Etznab
Apr 15, 2016, 7:23:49 PM4/15/16
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Let's look at a definition for plagiarism and see what it means"
"the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own."
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=definition+of+plagiarism
According to Doug Marman the plagiarized words were Paul's words. And according to Kinpa they were also Paul's words. However, Paul didn't attribute all words to himself. He attributed the words to a "Rebazar Tarzs".
This is why I think it important to establish who, or what, was / is this Rebazar Tarzs.
It is really not uncommon for a writer to create a pseudonym, or even a pseudo character. Considering the type of words Paul Twitchell copied and plagiarized it really looks possible to me that he chose to put them under the banner of a literary device. Multiple words and paragraphs from a variety of authors, books and spiritual teaching courses were attributed to a "Rebazar Tarzs". A huge and extensive amount of material was put into quotation marks as if coming NOT from Paul Twitchell, but from what he called Rebazar Tarzs.
Who, or what was this Rebazar Tarzs really. These are questions I have asked to get at and explore the actual truth and not some imaginary concoction dreamed up by an Eckankar apologist the likes of Doug Marman, Kinpa Rich Smith and Rob, etc.
I see it mentioned over and over about what plagiarism amounts to and what it is according to Kinpa and others. However, How many of those others have really witnessed the full extent of what Paul Twitchell appropriated for "Eckankar"? If they have not even seen what they claim to know so much about and are too afraid to even look - less it lengthen the growing list of copied examples and disempower Rebazar Tarzs (a device for appropriating other people's creations?) - then what is Kinpa and others babbling on about?
There are new examples of plagiarism coming soon. And I laugh at Kinpa's futile attempt to minimize the significance of what was attributed to Rebazar Tarzs as the author and not Paul Twitchell.
Nobody is looking at whether Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold Klemp were / are real people. People have and continue to look at how real is this Rebazar Tarzs?
So many books, including Holy Books, were written that hundreds and thousands have read and imbibed. How many people question the writings and then seek to clarify fiction from fact?
Oh, I see, those who have gone on believing wrongly for years and years are too afraid to witness their ignorance and too weak to handle the truth? Is that what this plagiarism equals only plagiarism amounts to? Instead one would try to imagine and bargain day after day to avoid the death of an ideal. One would imagine ways to propagate malicious falsehoods against others who point fingers at the plagiarisms as if to say Look at this! (?)
Now I see what has been going on here in a.r.e. for years. One side looking at and exploring plagiarisms, etc. and the other side looking to detract from the topic and put it anywhere but on plagiarisms and copying, etc. The lies and the personal attacks by J.R., Kinpa and others are an indication that they can't handle the truth. Are so afraid to look at it they would rather act like punks and trolls in order to deflect attention from those who come closer to the real truth.
I have a prophecy. If Rebazar Tarzs and certain other Eck Masters were not real people (real only in people's imaginations), I predict that the ideal will die and people will have to learn and live with it. In their imaginations they can all be real, but that is really not as ideal as real people and a long lineage of real people who (many of them) knew one another.
Kinpa
Apr 15, 2016, 8:49:53 PM4/15/16
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Why this is marked as abuse? It has been marked as abuse.
Report not abuse
I notice that you include no possibility that any ECK Masters might have ever been and/or still are real people. Why such a narrowed point of view? Does it cause you fear to consider that they might be real? You have still never shown even a single piece of actual evidence that any of them are fictional. Until you do that, you have nothing but assumption, which is NOT fact!
Perhaps you ought to go down to your local District Court and watch a few trials and become familiarized with what is and what is not evidence in a court setting. Assumptions are never considered anything other than a point of view, an opinion. Virtually nothing. Plagiarism still only proves plagiarism, and not one other thing. You can repeat the same old hunks of information as many times as you want to, that still can never make them the truth.
Also I've noticed that you use "Freedom of Religion" as your right to speak anti-Eckankar sentiment here. Do you have any clue how silly you make yourself look? You are owed no religious freedom by anyone, but if you intend to collect any, you MUST also give the same freedom to others, a thing you have never done here. At best, the only thing you have done is to change which belief system you will hold as being real, always without the slightest degree of proof.
When you were an actual ECKist, you were never much of one. Why do I say that? Because you have never been able to go out of body and gain any degree of inner experience. What are you so afraid of? You like to use the idea of inner activities being false and nothing more than a mental breakdown, and yet science does not agree with you. Funny stuff really. You seem to have gotten somehow extraordinarily disturbed recently, judging by the things you continue saying.
Why so afraid????? The only ideal that will die will be your own. I notice that you have never admitted being able to go consciously out of body to even look for any of the ECK Masters. Why so lazy? In any case, you are definitely NOT an ECKist, so give up the lying! But don't worry, headquarters will come to know your opinion of Eckankar!
Etznab
Apr 16, 2016, 8:16:06 AM4/16/16
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Etznab
Apr 16, 2016, 9:12:50 AM4/16/16
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On Friday, April 15, 2016 at 7:49:53 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:
Harold tells us about what is the real foundation. He also asked us to check things out. Have you checked out the writings and what Paul Twitchell claimed to be the case about Eck Masters like Rebazar Tarzs? Have you not realized this character (and others) were over and over animated by pages out books; and not an Eckankar book? How do you explain that, Kinpa? It appears to me that you can't, or won't. Remember "bargaining" as one of the stages for death of an ideal? I have copies of your posts and I have examples of the ways you tried to dismiss the plagiarisms as only plagiarisms. That is your opinion and maybe what works for you, but it is not my opinion. My opinion is that Twitchell and Eckankar probably used pseudo history and religion to grow a following to the extent that people started imagining the things they said were true.
Remember when Doug told us that Harold started discovering a growing list and was not necessarily happy about that? Ask yourself this, Why didn't Harold know about it beforehand? Especially after people had been talking and writing about it? Did Harold believe Darwin's Eckankar when it claimed no plagiarism in The Far Country? Iow, Did Harold "drink the cool-aid" and have to learn the truth just like the rest of us? I saw Harold as if speaking for Rebazar Tarzs in a book that looks nearly three-quarters plagiarized from other writers. He said that Rebazar told us about the correct letter of truth, what have you. And I say to you the correct letter of truth is not stealing the writings of others and then trying to disguise them as if they came from ancient masters instead. You can use all the courts in the world to try and coverup what you don't want to be true. You can spend all of your precious money until there isn't a nickle left defending what you want to believe. In the end though, if Paul Twitchell and Eckankar created elements of pseudo history and religion then that is what it is. What I have been saying for a long time is that there is no defending the pseudo man (and woman)-made history and religion anymore. Not in this day and age. I personally don't think it is right for this time period and people are not so inclined to get away with it anymore. How many books have you seen Harold write where he stole, or copied out of another author's book (or took from another groups spiritual study courses) and claimed the words were dictated to him by Eck Masters? See, we can check things too easily nowadays and can spot when a person copies from another. Plagiarism is a lot easier to spot these days. And it is not only plagiarism, because we all use many of the same words when writing and speaking. It is the intent and the meanings behind the words and arrangements of words that makes plagiarism what it is. Make it into a form of literary theft. The reason is that after stringing together a whole lot of words and information it creates a more unique form of creation. Also, readers should be able to know the source of certain literary creations and especially those speaking for no less than God and the way the universe works. If there are fictions in Eckankar, Kinpa, then I don't need to label them as non-fiction simply for the benefit of an organization. Because it is my steadfast belief that making pseudo history and religion pass for the truth is not what is going to help, but is going to harm people in the end. It is time for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth ... or did you forget how the founder of Eckankar wrote about this; or should I say copied it?
Refuse to see Truth, pretend that it is impossible to know what is true and what is not, distort Truth, seek to mix it with Untruth, attempt to deceive both ourselves and others, give Truth in an unattractive manner, then chaos will reign in our lives...
This is the time for Truth "the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth." This is no time for half-Truths, for bewilderment and lack of understanding. These constitute the soil in which grief grows. In Truth alone there is comfort, understanding and courage.
Paul Twitchell, The Flute of God
http://www.spiritualdialogues.com/thewholetruth.html
I'm sure this reads like a brick over the head (pun intended) for some:
Apart from Truth being spoken to others, Truth is an absolute need in our lives. We must see Truth and know Truth and think Truth, always. If we refuse to see Truth, or pretend we cannot tell what is true and what is not; if we distort Truth or seek to mix it with untruth; if we, in fact, like to deceive both ourselves and others if the truth does not present an attractive aspect to us, then chaos will reign in our lives. Our Real Self will be in conflict with our outer self and we shall continually find ourselves in the most unpleasant situations.
http://thought-bricks.com/courses/thought-bricks-foundation-lessons/thought-bricks-9-truth-liberator/
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/56U-w_TghZU/3EBuPOUSBAAJ
Bernard:
The "Divine Promises" have been puzzling thinking people throughout the ages. For while they speak of love; they speak of wrath. How can the two be reconciled?
It is this way. The divine promises are spoken as the voice of everlasting law. God put this law into action at the beginning of the world, that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap". This law is just and logical, part of great inheritance of man, who is God's offspring and heir.
Whatsoever God has "sown" on earth by the power of his divine thought has grown into visible reality. Therefore whatever we "sow", as offspring and heir of God, comes into visible reality too.
God's thoughts are infinite; man's are finite - both operate under the same divinely appointed law. With this knowledge the divine promises are made clear in both their aspects. If evil is sown in thought, evil is "reaped". If good is sown in thought, good is "reaped".
How then to turn evil, once "sown" and reaped, into good? By the power of Christ within, the intermediary which saves us from our "sins". The scripture tells us, "Your life is hide with Christ in God". This divinely appointed "bridge" between God and man, between God and not-good (or evil) enables that which is not good to become good, that which is not happy to become happy and that which is incurable to become curable. [... .]
http://thought-bricks.com/charts-2/divine-promises-chart-affirmation-exercise/
Twitchell:
Running through the holy scriptures of the world there is found the golden thread of promises made by the prophets and savior who were the light of these ages.
The divine promises have puzzled thinking people in every period of history, for while they speak of love, they speak also of wrath. How can the two be reconciled?
The divine promises are given in the Voice of The Everlasting Law. God put this law into action at the beginning of this universe. Within this universe, and many other universes, also, it is the law of cause and effect. "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"' This law is a just and logical one, and part of the great inheritance of man, who is God's heir. Whatsoever God has sown on earth by the power of His divine thought, has grown into visible reality. Whatsoever man "sows" as the offspring and heir of God, comes into visible reality, also. God's thoughts are infinite; man's are finite, but both are operating under the same divinely appointed law.
Within this knowledge, the divine promises are clear in both aspects. If negativeness is sown in thought, the same is produced and reaped. If positiveness is sown in thought, then it is reaped. How then does one turn the negative once sown and reap into the constructive?
This is done by the divine power in each of us, who are Souls. The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, the ECK Bible, tells us, "Your life is hid with the ECK (the power) in me." This is the divinely appointed bridge between God and man, between good and evil, between positiveness and negativeness, enabling that which is not good to become good; that which is unhappy to become happy and that which is incurable to become curable. [... .]
- The Flute of God, by Paul Twitchell, 8th Printing - 1982, Chapter 4 - THE PROMISES OF THE PROPHET, pp. 45-46
Bernard:
THE TRUTH ABOUT LIFE AND DEATH
This is a time for Truth, the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth. This is no time for half truths, for bewilderment and lack of understanding, for these are the soil in which helpless grief grows. In truth alone is there comfort and understanding and courage. That is why, because I understand so well, I am giving you Truth.
http://thought-bricks.com/courses/thought-bricks-foundation-lessons/thought-bricks-11-real-die/
Twitchell:
This is the time for Truth "the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth." This is no time for half-Truths, for bewilderment and lack of understanding. These constitute the soil in which grief grows. In Truth alone there is comfort, understanding and courage.
- The Flute of God, by Paul Twitchell, 8th Printing - 1982, Chapter 9 - (THE SHAPE OF THE ALTAR), p. 128
Bernard:
Apart from Truth being spoken to others, Truth is an absolute need in our lives. We must see Truth and know Truth and think Truth, always. If we refuse to see Truth, or pretend we cannot tell what is true and what is not; if we distort Truth or seek to mix it with untruth; if we, in fact, like to deceive both ourselves and others if the truth does not present an attractive aspect to us, then chaos will reign in our lives. Our Real Self will be in conflict with our outer self and we shall continually find ourselves in the most unpleasant situations.
http://thought-bricks.com/courses/thought-bricks-foundation-lessons/thought-bricks-9-truth-liberator/
Twitchell:
Before you can give Truth to others, Truth must be known as the absolute need in your life. We must see Truth and know Truth and think Truth always.
Refuse to see Truth, pretend that it is impossible to know what is true and what is not, distort Truth, seek to mix it with Untruth, attempt to deceive both ourselves and others, give Truth in an unattractive manner, then chaos will reign in our lives. Our real self will be in conflict with our outer self and we will continually find ourselves in the most unpleasant situations.
- The Flute of God, by Paul Twitchell, 8th Printing - 1982, Chapter 9 - (THE SHAPE OF THE ALTAR), pp. 127-128
***
My personal favorite (NOT) is still Harold Klemp speaking about Rebazar Tarzs, speaking about the correct letter of truth.
In his Introduction for Fourth Printing (1985) of The Key to Eckankar, Harold Klemp referenced Rebazar Tarzs. Harold wrote: [...] Rebazar Tarzs says that the individual first has to get "the correct letter of truth" before he can live in the spirit of truth. He tells how this is done. [... .]
Examples:
[...] How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it."
Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
[Note: All illustrations here should be checked for typos.]
http://www.scribd.com/doc/218780789/82916572-Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith-1
"How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it."
Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/AEhzOYFzWck/dsFcIwx7KKUJ
***
Some of my findings, so far, about Paul Twitchell's book, The Key to Eckankar.
The Key to Eckankar is about 43 pages of text. Similarities (near or exact) between text for The Key to Eckankar and writings of Neville Goddard appear on, or about pp. 5-6; the writings of Talbot Mundy, p. 6; Neville Goddard pp. 6-7; Thomas Troward, pp. 8-9; Talbot Mundy, p. 14; Neville Goddard, p. 17; Joel Goldsmith, p. 19; Talbot Mundy, pp. 23-25, 27; Scientology Dynamics, p. 27; Neville Goddard, p. 28; Scientology Axioms, p. 37; Joel Goldsmith, pp. 40-42.
This is a list of the books and links.
The Power of Awareness, Neville Goddard (1952)
http://ia600202.us.archive.org/11/items/ThePowerOfAwareness/Neville_ThePowerOfAwareness.pdf
Old Ugly Face, Talbot Mundy (1940)
http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html
Lectures on Mental Science, Thomas Troward (1909)
http://www.archive.org/stream/edinburghlecture00trow#page/n7/mode/2up
Scientology, Hubbard (1950s?)
http://learn.scientology.org/wis4_12.htm
Practicing the Presence, Joel S. Goldsmith (1958)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith
The Key to Eckankar ("1968")
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
TKTE - p. 19:
"We only have to prove this in one direction and we shall have it proved in every direction. The whole secret lies in the word heart, or what we call consciousness. An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is All is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth fully realized via ECKANKAR is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so we will see all of life through that understanding."
PTP - Goldsmith (2nd paragraph, p. 19)
The whole secret lies in the word "consciousness". An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is all is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth realized is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so it is unto us.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith
TKTE - p. 40
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."
PTP - p. 20
Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way.
TKTE - p. 40
"The second step cannot be taken unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years we spend in reading truth, attending services, lectures, and classes are fruitful in leading us to that point where inspiration flows from within our own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth."
PTP - p. 21
The second step, which leads to a state of consciousness where we are receptive and responsive to the still small voice, cannot be taken, however, unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years that a person has spent in reading truth, hearing truth, thinking truth, attending church services, lectures, or classes are fruitful in leading him to that point where inspiration flows from within his own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth.
TKTE - p. 40
"Yaubl Sacabi told me long ago, 'Let my spirit dwell in you. And so shall the SUGMAD be exalted so that you will bear the harvest of good deeds.'
"To live in this truth, to abide in the Word, is to bear the harvest of all things in the richest manner: that is, to live harmoniously in the spiritual senses. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in It, and let It live in us, we become as the branch of a tree that is cut off and withers away.
"How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it.
PTP - p. 21
Jesus tells us to let "my words abide in you. ... Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit." To live in that truth, to abide in that Word, is to bear fruit richly, that is, to live harmoniously, spiritual lives. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in it, and let it abide in us, we become as branches that are cut off and wither. How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn that the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciouness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it.
[Keep in mind Joel S. Goldsmith's book was called Practicing The Presence and that another phrase he used (and a book by that same name) was called The Infinite Way.]
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Wle6bykppIc/SjghdLsP_t8J
... continuing from earlier post
TKTE - p. 41
"It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be the branch that withers away, unless we live so completely in the Word and let this Word live in us so that the Very Spirit dwells in us-the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of It, but most of us are as unaware of It as we are of the blood coursing through our veins. God is with us, God's presence fills all space, the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many have felt that presence? It is talked about, prayed for, theorized over, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced! It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence, which is necessary."
PTP - pp. 21-22
It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be a branch that withereth, until we so abide in the Word and let this Word abide in us that the very Spirit of God. There is a Spirit in man. There actually is a Spirit - the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of it, but most of us are as unaware of it as we are of the blood coursing through our bodies. God is with us. God's presence fills all space; the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many people have felt that Presence? It is talked about, prayed about, theorized about, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced. It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence which is necessary.
TKTE - p. 41
"In most religious teachings, we are told that God is everywhere, but this is not true in the sense of prevalence. If the Spirit of God were everywhere, all persons would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. The Spirit of God is present only where It is Realized. This is why we are all trying to become channels for Spirit."
PTP - p. 22
In most religious teachings, we are told that the Spirit God is everywhere, but that is not true. If the Spirit of the Lord were everywhere, everybody would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. No. the Spirit of the Lord is present only where it is realized.
TKTE - p. 41
"Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then as far as we are concerned, we do not have the realization of this Spirit. It is like electricity (which is everywhere, just as the Spirit of God is), but electricity is of little use or value to anyone unless it is connected in some way for a particular use. So it is with the Spirit of God. It is everywhere in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized."
PTP - p. 22-23
Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then, as far as we are concerned, we do not have this Spirit. Again, it is a case of rolling up the window shades, or it is like saying that electricity is everywhere. That is true. Electricity is everywhere just as the Spirit of God is everywhere. Electricity, however, will be of no value to us, unless it is connected in some way for our particular use. So it is with this Spirit of God. It is everywhere, in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized.
TKTE - pp. 41-42
"Anyone following the path of ECKANKAR cannot go through a day satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious realization of truth going on all the time. This does not mean he is going to neglect his human duties and activities. It means that he is going to train himself to have some area in his consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look at the forms of nature as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and live within the Word."
PTP - p. 23
The student of spiritual wisdom cannot go through his day, satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning, or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious activity of truth going on all the time. That does not mean that we neglect our human duties and activities; it means that we train himself to have some area of consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look out at forms of nature such as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and to abide in the Word.
TKTE - p. 42
"So it is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in all scriptures, but mainly in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, the Way of the Eternal."
PTP - pp. 23-24
It is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle, and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in scripture: Christian, Hebrew, and Oriental. Some of them are not found in any written form, but nevertheless, they are known to all the mystics of the world. The further we go in this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem, we do not have to think consciously of any of them.
TKTE - p. 41
"The deeper we go into this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding, and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem we do not have to consciously think of them.
"Someday I will give these principles to you for publication. An understanding of the principles of spiritual living - that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth - is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship is to God. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble in a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth so that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being."
PTP - p. 25
An understanding of the principles of spiritual living, that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth, is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship to God and our fellowman is. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble into a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth in order that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and on another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of that which is. A spiritual life cannot be built without an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being.
TKTE - p. 42
"It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let God operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night until the actual awareness comes gradually. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be living in the world and shall gather in the harvest of Souls."
PTP - p. 26
It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let these principles operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night, until gradually the actual awareness comes. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be abiding in the Word and shall bear fruit richly. [... .]
***
OK that's about the best I can do right now for the similarities between Twitchell and Goldsmith that I've found so far. I have them all in a different format, and where the paragraphs are not broken up, that might be possible to share in the future. I also have examples from the other authors listed on this thread. Bear in mind I am still researching Paul Twitchell's book The Key to Eckankar and may not have found all similarities (near and exact) to date when the book (or what Rebazar Tarzs reportedly said) is compared with other authors and their books. Most of them copyrighted.
There is also Harold Klemp's Introduction for the 2003 version of TKTE that I want to append to this thread. Along with what he had to say about Rebazar Tarzs.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Wle6bykppIc/v_i6BDdTBjkJ
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."
Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way."
Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
[Note: Goldsmith says: "Thus we learn to abide in the Word." where Eckankar says: "We learn to abide in the world ... ." Typo???]
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/nD2iq5AOBzc/4T8Ss0btEFEJ
Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp both made remarks about Rebazar Tarzs. Paul, reportedly taking down Rebazar's dictation and Harold Klemp further remarking about
(1) the "conversation" "His [Rebazar Tarzs'] conversation with Paul ..."]
and
(2) the "dialogue" ["... the dialogue between Rebazar Tarzs and Paul ... ."]
and Harold also (in some respects)
(3) attempting to explain what Rebazar Tarzs meant.
On this newsgroup (and in so many words) it was suggested, even stated, that plagiarisms do not discount the verity of Eck Masters. Iow, that plagiarisms (by the founder of Eckankar, that were not exactly words from Eck Masters, but rather words copied from library books and credited to certain Eck Masters, etc.) have as if nothing to do with whether Eck Masters are real, or not. It almost looks to me as if some people would rather like to sweep the study and illustration for a "growing list" of plagiarisms out of the way and off of this newsgroup. Although this action is not entirely certain, what is certain are the number of personal "attacks" and ridicule, etc. of those choosing to bring up and maintain a discussion and deeper study of this topic.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/nD2iq5AOBzc/vlRM7X8Eke8J
Quoting from FAQ section of official Eckankar website:
"Is Eckankar a cult?
"No.
"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom. It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others or to hold anyone to a spiritual path. [... .]"
http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#cult
*********
Comments:
The word "beliefs" has an interesting context here.
"It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others ..."
Question;
"What about belief in Rebazar Tarzs and other Eck Masters? Harold Klemp, the leader of Eckankar (See; The Key to Eckankar) appears to "speak for" Rebazar Tarzs. Is this the truth? Or is this Harold's belief?
Observations:
In his Introduction for Fourth Printing (1985) of The Key to Eckankar, Harold Klemp referenced Rebazar Tarzs. Harold wrote: [...] Rebazar Tarzs says that the individual first has to get "the correct letter of truth" before he can live in the spirit of truth. He tells how this is done. [... .]
(See full Introduction for more insights and context.)
http://tinyurl.com/o2ozxuo
The Key to Eckankar section about "correct letter of truth" is one that very closely resembles the writings in Joel S. Goldsmith's book, Practicing the Presence of God - 1958 Iow, the words "correct letter of truth" appeared years before The Key to Eckankar book came out in 1968.
Some sample quotes (from a much larger section of correspondences covering over a dozen paragraphs in consecutive order) illustrating similarity between the writings of Joel S. Goldsmith and the words of Paul Twitchell and Rebazar Tarzs.
***
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."
Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way."
Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
[Note: Goldsmith says: "Thus we learn to abide in the Word." where Eckankar says: "We learn to abide in the world ... ." Typo???]
***
"Yaubl Sacabi told me long ago, 'Let my spirit dwell in you. And so shall the SUGMAD be exalted so that you will bear the harvest of good deeds.'
"To live in this truth, to abide in the Word, is to bear the harvest of all things in the richest manner: that is, to live harmoniously in the spiritual senses. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in It, and let It live in us, we become as the branch of a tree that is cut off and withers away."
Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
Jesus tells us to let "my words abide in you. ... Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit." To live in that truth, to abide in that Word, is to bear fruit richly, that is, to live harmoniously, spiritual lives. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in it, and let it abide in us, we become as branches that are cut off and wither. [...]
Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
***
"How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it."
Based on: The Key to Eckankar - Twitchell
[...] How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it."
Based on: Practicing The Presence - Goldsmith
[Note: All illustrations here should be checked for typos.]
http://www.scribd.com/doc/218780789/82916572-Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith-1
*********
The official Eckankar website has a link about Rebazar Tarzs.
http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html
This link is response to a frequently asked question.
Begin quote ...
Do the ECK Masters really exist?
The ECK Masters are real.
People from all over the world and from all walks of life have had personal experiences with the ECK Masters years before Paul Twitchell brought them to the public eye.
Many people who have never heard of Eckankar recognize ECK Masters from their dreams and other encounters.
Here on the Eckankar Web site, you can read some of these stories and see pictures of some of these ECK Masters.
Better yet, meet them for yourself. That's the real proof for any spiritual seeker.
The book Those Wonderful ECK Masters (link opens in a new window) gives spiritual exercises to help you receive personal guidance from an ECK Master.
... end quote.
http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#eckmasters
More comments:
From at least the 1970s - over 40 years ago - Eckankar has received feedback about examples of dubious biographical information surrounding what so many "Eck Masters" reportedly said, or wrote; along with a growing number of plagiarism examples and/or verbatim matches between the Eckankar writings and the writings of other gurus and New Age authors, etc.
HOWEVER, when historical evidence of Eckankar masters is presented in story form, or according to what the Eckankar founder wrote, WHERE are all the examples of paraphrase and plagiarism showing convincing evidence for the very real prospect that Paul Twitchell, or somebody, took from the writings of other authors and used them like a literary device to animate a historical record of Eckankar masters?
It appears to me that a propaganda campaign has been carried forward for a good number of years in which stories that support the belief of "real" Eck masters are promoted, whereas stories and black and white evidence to the contrary is NOT so much promoted.
*********
Quoting from the Eckankar website again:
"The ECK teachings are based on compassion, respect, personal responsibility, and giving others freedom. It is against spiritual law to push one's beliefs on others or to hold anyone to a spiritual path. [... .]"
http://www.eckankar.org/FAQ/index.html#cult
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/AEhzOYFzWck/dsFcIwx7KKUJ
More reference links:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/The$20Key$20to$20Eckankar|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/ae1tfX28RMk/utNnWx_GSqoJ
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/The$20Key$20to$20Eckankar|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/C6u9t1O-MpE/OAkXUTY7ns4J
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!searchin/alt.religion.eckankar/The$20Key$20to$20Eckankar|sort:date/alt.religion.eckankar/OB416Fe7BmA/Ja3co0ofzbgJ
Yea, Doug has not been a part of the conversation since his "Whole Truth" had only a minimal amount of plagiarism examples and the actual "whole truth" has many, many more that even Wikipedia appears oblivious to.
Since Kinpa already told us how people know about all the plagiarisms and they don't hardly care then it should be no problem making a illustrated mention on Wikipedia and other sites. I mean, should be no resistance at all.
Kinpa
Apr 21, 2016, 12:20:42 AM4/21/16
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On Saturday, April 16, 2016 at 1:12:50 PM UTC, Etznab wrote:
> On Friday, April 15, 2016 at 7:49:53 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:
> > On Friday, April 15, 2016 at 11:23:49 PM UTC, Etznab wrote:
> > > Let's look at a definition for plagiarism and see what it means"
> > >
> > > "the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own."
> > >
> > > https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=definition+of+plagiarism
> > >
> > > According to Doug Marman the plagiarized words were Paul's words. And according to Kinpa they were also Paul's words. However, Paul didn't attribute all words to himself. He attributed the words to a "Rebazar Tarzs".
> > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> On Friday, April 15, 2016 at 7:49:53 PM UTC-5, Kinpa wrote:
> > On Friday, April 15, 2016 at 11:23:49 PM UTC, Etznab wrote:
> > > Let's look at a definition for plagiarism and see what it means"
> > >
> > > "the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own."
> > >
> > > https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=definition+of+plagiarism
> > >
> > > According to Doug Marman the plagiarized words were Paul's words. And according to Kinpa they were also Paul's words. However, Paul didn't attribute all words to himself. He attributed the words to a "Rebazar Tarzs".
So what? That proves plagiarism, but does NOT prove Rebazar Tarzs fictional....and assumptions do not constitute facts! EVER!
> > > This is why I think it important to establish who, or what, was / is this Rebazar Tarzs.
> > >
> > > It is really not uncommon for a writer to create a pseudonym, or even a pseudo character. Considering the type of words Paul Twitchell copied and plagiarized it really looks possible to me that he chose to put them under the banner of a literary device. Multiple words and paragraphs from a variety of authors, books and spiritual teaching courses were attributed to a "Rebazar Tarzs". A huge and extensive amount of material was put into quotation marks as if coming NOT from Paul Twitchell, but from what he called Rebazar Tarzs.
> > >
> > > Who, or what was this Rebazar Tarzs really. These are questions I have asked to get at and explore the actual truth and not some imaginary concoction dreamed up by an Eckankar apologist the likes of Doug Marman, Kinpa Rich Smith and Rob, etc.
None of whom actually ever apologized for anything...again your misuse of the English language is downright laughable!
> > > I see it mentioned over and over about what plagiarism amounts to and what it is according to Kinpa and others. However, How many of those others have really witnessed the full extent of what Paul Twitchell appropriated for "Eckankar"? If they have not even seen what they claim to know so much about and are too afraid to even look - less it lengthen the growing list of copied examples and disempower Rebazar Tarzs (a device for appropriating other people's creations?) - then what is Kinpa and others babbling on about?
If you paid attention you would know, but being so desperate to believe your own assumptions, you are groundless the second anyone disagrees with your conclusions...none of it equals your having found out anything about Rebazar Tarzs, in fact, you have no idea if that is even his actual name, only that it is the name that Sri Paul Twitchell used for him......and your inability to prove that plagiarism proves any other thing, is something you have not yet accomplished....only YOU claim it to be disempowering Rebazar or anyone else, however, many disagree with you about that.....furthermore, your own assumptions are simply not proofs of anything other than the fact that you consider YOUR assumptions to be factual.
> > > There are new examples of plagiarism coming soon. And I laugh at Kinpa's futile attempt to minimize the significance of what was attributed to Rebazar Tarzs as the author and not Paul Twitchell.
Laugh away! I couldn't care less! Do not flatter yourself to being that important in my life, nor any of your opinions! I have no need of minimizing, but YOU cannot refuse to fight it because your entire point of view depends literally on plagiarism being important! Nice crutch you're using! Don't get angry at others because they choose to not use it as a crutch!
> > > Nobody is looking at whether Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold Klemp were / are real people. People have and continue to look at how real is this Rebazar Tarzs?
And you CAN'T prove anything either way! You also can't have ANY conscious inner experience!
> > > So many books, including Holy Books, were written that hundreds and thousands have read and imbibed. How many people question the writings and then seek to clarify fiction from fact?
Another crutch???
> > > Oh, I see, those who have gone on believing wrongly for years and years are too afraid to witness their ignorance and too weak to handle the truth? Is that what this plagiarism equals only plagiarism amounts to? Instead one would try to imagine and bargain day after day to avoid the death of an ideal. One would imagine ways to propagate malicious falsehoods against others who point fingers at the plagiarisms as if to say Look at this! (?)
A LOT of assumption going on here...and you have yet to prove ANYTHING to be an actual lie about you...so until you show proof, there is no lie! OOPS!
> > > Now I see what has been going on here in a.r.e. for years. One side looking at and exploring plagiarisms, etc. and the other side looking to detract from the topic and put it anywhere but on plagiarisms and copying, etc. The lies and the personal attacks by J.R., Kinpa and others are an indication that they can't handle the truth. Are so afraid to look at it they would rather act like punks and trolls in order to deflect attention from those who come closer to the real truth.
You haven't been attacked by anyone, so quit your crying! No one is afraid to look at anything, some people just don't find it as important as you do! You are simply outnumbered! Too afraid to admit that fact? Awww why?
> > > I have a prophecy. If Rebazar Tarzs and certain other Eck Masters were not real people (real only in people's imaginations), I predict that the ideal will die and people will have to learn and live with it. In their imaginations they can all be real, but that is really not as ideal as real people and a long lineage of real people who (many of them) knew one another.
I predict that you will never actually know any of what the case may actually be, owing simply to your complete refusal to consider ANY inner event as real...although you are equally as unable to prove them UNreal! NONE of that has ANY bearing on ANY beings that exist anywhere in the world, or in ANY time period, whether 500 years old or 60,000 years old! You yourself are using nothing more than your own imagination (while criticizing others for doing it)to fit plagiarisms that prove nothing more than that Paul Twitchell plagiarized, to instead serve as proof of your assumed goal, that being that the ECK Masters are all fictional! Nice usage of that ever famous double standard!
> > Copied verbatim and sent to Eckankar along with your claims of membership.....an Arahata you are not, nor a current member either, but have a great day anyhow....your prophecy is not accurate, but it is amusing nonetheless that you claim to offer prophecy. Still waiting for any of your threats to come to pass also....no one is afraid of anything, because there is absolutely nothing to be afraid of.
Send them away then! I do not care! But this time actually DO IT! While you're at it prove that no prophecy has come true....in most cases you have had witnesses that say otherwise....I have never made any threat to you, so enjoy waiting for a thing that doesn't exist...call the FBI while you're at it for good measure! I have never asked you or anyone to be afraid of anything, so why are you even saying that to me??? That is a personal situation regardless of any opinion I may have about your fear or lack thereof. Feel better now?
> > I notice that you include no possibility that any ECK Masters might have ever been and/or still are real people. Why such a narrowed point of view? Does it cause you fear to consider that they might be real? You have still never shown even a single piece of actual evidence that any of them are fictional. Until you do that, you have nothing but assumption, which is NOT fact!
> >
> > Perhaps you ought to go down to your local District Court and watch a few trials and become familiarized with what is and what is not evidence in a court setting. Assumptions are never considered anything other than a point of view, an opinion. Virtually nothing. Plagiarism still only proves plagiarism, and not one other thing. You can repeat the same old hunks of information as many times as you want to, that still can never make them the truth.
> >
> > Also I've noticed that you use "Freedom of Religion" as your right to speak anti-Eckankar sentiment here. Do you have any clue how silly you make yourself look? You are owed no religious freedom by anyone, but if you intend to collect any, you MUST also give the same freedom to others, a thing you have never done here. At best, the only thing you have done is to change which belief system you will hold as being real, always without the slightest degree of proof.
> >
> > When you were an actual ECKist, you were never much of one. Why do I say that? Because you have never been able to go out of body and gain any degree of inner experience. What are you so afraid of? You like to use the idea of inner activities being false and nothing more than a mental breakdown, and yet science does not agree with you. Funny stuff really. You seem to have gotten somehow extraordinarily disturbed recently, judging by the things you continue saying.
> >
> > Why so afraid????? The only ideal that will die will be your own. I notice that you have never admitted being able to go consciously out of body to even look for any of the ECK Masters. Why so lazy? In any case, you are definitely NOT an ECKist, so give up the lying! But don't worry, headquarters will come to know your opinion of Eckankar!
>
> See, this is why I continue to explore the myths of religion. On account of the attitudes of hate spawned by pseudo history and religious beliefs. I see that you simply can't tolerate what works for me and what does not; to the extent of not even admitting that I am an Eckist. Well, I'd say you're just gonna have to live with people who demand a little more proof than what someone wrote in, or copied out of verbatim (and / or paraphrased) from another person's book.
I always HAVE lived with that silly boy! YOU will just have to live with people that do not agree with your assumptions, but since you post them publicly, they get responded to, why do you have such a hard time with that happening? Is it because I don;t tell you what you want to hear???
Go and worship all the pseudo religious history and religion with all it's bells and whistles. I see you fancy all the pretty color and graphics available for making things appear real on the Internet; calling yourself a "Shabda" and at the same time literally talking about shit and making up lies about people. Have you forgotten your posts this last year? The many malicious falsehoods in spite of the warnings and notifications?
I do not worship anything or anyone.....a simple idea really, but as usual you again misidentify things and refuse to admit it...oh well...I am still waiting for you to prove these lies that you keep mentioning, but you have never done so! NONE of my posts are stalking, stop believing what sean says, he isn't real bright, or better yet, hire an attorney and try a lawsuit! Bring it!
> Harold tells us about what is the real foundation. He also asked us to check things out. Have you checked out the writings and what Paul Twitchell claimed to be the case about Eck Masters like Rebazar Tarzs? Have you not realized this character (and others) were over and over animated by pages out books; and not an Eckankar book? How do you explain that, Kinpa? It appears to me that you can't, or won't.
Do I need to explain that? You stil haven't proven anything about the reality or fictionality of ANY ECK Master! Over animated? Opinion! Yours, not mine! That still proves NOTHING about the reality of, or lack thereof, of any ECK Master, it ONLY proves that Paul Twitchell plagiarized.
Remember "bargaining" as one of the stages for death of an ideal? I have copies of your posts and I have examples of the ways you tried to dismiss the plagiarisms as only plagiarisms. That is your opinion and maybe what works for you, but it is not my opinion. My opinion is that Twitchell and Eckankar probably used pseudo history and religion to grow a following to the extent that people started imagining the things they said were true.
I didn't only try, I did! You just cannot admit it to be true because it IS the only crutch you have to support your view! You can keep your opinion, and this is NOT the first time I've said that! Enjoy!
> Remember when Doug told us that Harold started discovering a growing list and was not necessarily happy about that? Ask yourself this, Why didn't Harold know about it beforehand? Especially after people had been talking and writing about it? Did Harold believe Darwin's Eckankar when it claimed no plagiarism in The Far Country? Iow, Did Harold "drink the cool-aid" and have to learn the truth just like the rest of us? I saw Harold as if speaking for Rebazar Tarzs in a book that looks nearly three-quarters plagiarized from other writers. He said that Rebazar told us about the correct letter of truth, what have you. And I say to you the correct letter of truth is not stealing the writings of others and then trying to disguise them as if they came from ancient masters instead. You can use all the courts in the world to try and coverup what you don't want to be true. You can spend all of your precious money until there isn't a nickle left defending what you want to believe. In the end though, if Paul Twitchell and Eckankar created elements of pseudo history and religion then that is what it is. What I have been saying for a long time is that there is no defending the pseudo man (and woman)-made history and religion anymore. Not in this day and age. I personally don't think it is right for this time period and people are not so inclined to get away with it anymore. How many books have you seen Harold write where he stole, or copied out of another author's book (or took from another groups spiritual study courses) and claimed the words were dictated to him by Eck Masters? See, we can check things too easily nowadays and can spot when a person copies from another. Plagiarism is a lot easier to spot these days. And it is not only plagiarism, because we all use many of the same words when writing and speaking. It is the intent and the meanings behind the words and arrangements of words that makes plagiarism what it is. Make it into a form of literary theft. The reason is that after stringing together a whole lot of words and information it creates a more unique form of creation. Also, readers should be able to know the source of certain literary creations and especially those speaking for no less than God and the way the universe works. If there are fictions in Eckankar, Kinpa, then I don't need to label them as non-fiction simply for the benefit of an organization. Because it is my steadfast belief that making pseudo history and religion pass for the truth is not what is going to help, but is going to harm people in the end. It is time for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth ... or did you forget how the founder of Eckankar wrote about this; or should I say copied it?
You have as of yet been unable to get the truth....but hey go ahead and demand that headquarters do as you say they must! Personally, I don't care at all! No one ever said that you had to agree with me either!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Feel better now??? LOL
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