Letter of Truth

[Etznab]

See page 19, 2nd paragraph.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith

Compare with page 19, 4th paragraph.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

Ref#. 41391720-898-Practicing The Presence vs. The Key to Eckankar

P.S. For educational purposes.

[Etznab]

Practicing the Presence, Goldsmith WAS one of the books mentioned in Letters to Gail, Volume One - as part of the recommended reading list at back of book.

Power of Awareness, Neville WAS mentioned too.

Sections from both books are strikingly similar to what reportedly came from Rebazar Tarzs. That's why I mention it.

***

The phrase "letter of truth" appears in The Key to Eckankar, by Paul Twitchell seven times. In Practicing the Presence, by Goldsmith, it appears 25 times!

The correspondences between TKTE and PTP for this phrase include:

TKTE - p. 40

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

PTP p. 21

http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith

[Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck Master Gopal Das & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version.]

TKTE - p. 41

PTP - p. 21

TKTE - p. 42

PTP - pp. 23 & 26

[Notice how scripture: Christian, Hebrew and Oriental in Goldsmith's version becomes The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad in Twitchell's version. Other Eckankar terms appear in Twitchell's book that are missing from Goldsmith's book.]

***

Remarkable about these correspondences are the reported time periods for composition. Practicing the Presence, as early as 1958. The Key to Eckankar (the manuscript) reportedly as early as 1963.

Neville Goddard's The Power of Awareness (as early as 1952) also has quotes (paragraphs) similar to Rebazar Tarzs' in The Key to Eckankar. For example, compare Chapter One from Neville Goddard's book

http://ia600202.us.archive.org/11/items/ThePowerOfAwareness/Neville_ThePowerOfAwareness.pdf

with Chapter One from The Key to Eckankar.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

Talbot Mundy's Old Ugly-Face, btw, was 1940 (I believe)

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

Julian Johnson's book The Path Of The Masters appeared as early as 1939, whereas The Far Country (the manuscript) reportedly appeared as early as 1964.

In conclusion, it looks like similar quotes between Rebazar Tarzs and other authors comes years AFTER the works by other authors.

There's just too much evidence, IMO, not to look closely at similar sayings between Rebazar Tarzs (and by extension, Eckankar) and writings by other people entirely.

Wouldn't Harold Klemp and Eckankar know about this stuff? If they don't then maybe they do now. Or when people start asking for an explanation. If someone new to Eckankar - presented with this and other information - asked What does it say about Rebazar Tarzs? one could suggest asking the Eckankar clergy, or writing to Minnesota.

For now, I'm still open to suggestions about the history of Rebazar Tarzs and other Eck Masters. Perhaps I'm not the only person to wonder.

***

"Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

[Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by Harold Klemp]

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man2.html

***

Anybody want an extra ticket to Paradox Island? :)

[Santim Vah]

Wouldn't Harold Klemp and Eckankar know about this stuff?

OF COURSE HAROLD KLEMP KNOWS this .. knows all about it .. and has known since 1984, 28 years ago now.

And like all good White Christian Men in America, Harold Klemp speaks with forked tongue, and out of BOTH sides of his mouth.

The vagueness of statements, dream scapes of astral libraries, the endless story telling, the references to Aesop's fables isn't the Mark of Master communicating to the loyal flock in secret esoteric terms only the high initiates can decode or comprehend ... it's simply vagueness and lack of confidence, a conflicted ego identity, and all too human guilt.

<shrug>

Some might call it a 28 Year COVER UP of the Whole Truth ... of course harold knows, he alwasy has .. and ti shook to him to HIS core, and the grief he had to deal with he projected out onto everyone else that THEY would be upset knowing Paul Twitchell wasn't perfect, a plagiariser & master compiler, for it meant his amazing status in 1981 onwards was ALSO a FICTION .. and yet he was stunned that he had also believed but that it was NOT actually TRUE. Yikes, how could that happen? The LEM could get it all so wrong!

Living a life of 28 years knowing all this and remaining SILENT, has a tendency to send on OFF THE EDGE, and it can ruin one's physical and psychosocial health as well.

Well, Go figure!

Every picture tells a story.

[Etznab]

For me, The Key to Eckankar was one of my first and one of my favorite Eckankar books. So was The Far Country. I also liked the last so many letters from LTG Volume 3. So many of my favorite writings had Rebazar Tarzs for the author.

Rebazar Tarzs was a close friend for many years and I believed what Paul Twitchell wrote and how he depicted him. All of this contributed to my researching of Rebazar Tarzs history for over five years now. I had to know what the truth.

It became more and more difficult to believe the stories of R.T. every time I found his teachings written in books by other people and years before Paul Twitchell wrote about him. Also, after looking at Paul Twitchell's dubious timeline in his biography and the other tall tales. It became a lot more probable to me that Paul Twitchell embellished things.

Meanwhile, Harold Klemp and Eckankar, etc., seemed to portray R.T. as a real living person and fitting the stories written about him by Paul & others. Even fitting experiences people reportedly had about him years before they ever heard of Eckankar.

I'm thinking: What a fine mess I've gotten myself into. On the one hand historical research and common sense show me one thing and on the other hand Paul Twitchell and "Eckankar" shows me another.

Is it me that has a problem, I wonder? And should I "move on"? like it was suggested to me here years ago? And more than once?

I never expected this. Never expected to find information Paul compiled from other authors made out to have come from Eck Masters. If this was the actual case I can't say it was my doing. I didn't create, or write the founding stories about Eckankar and Eck Masters. They were sold to me and I bought them. An investment which has since changed its value after I looked at it more closely.

Some fine writings in Eckankar, that's for sure. No doubt about it. The source(s), however, do not appear to be what I once believed they were. The lineage of Eck Masters was one thing I valued most. That idea of a teaching handed down by word of mouth (not handed down by copying other people's books) was something that made Eckankar unique (to me) when compared to other paths, or religions. It gave credibility and ancient integrity to the teachings as I saw them. Harold's Death of an Ideal is telling, perhaps, but in my opinion an understatement.

All these years now I've caught flack from people, some from members and some from x-members. One can't really play both sides to this game though and remain friends to both. So I tried to keep balanced on some "middle ground" that I presumed to be the truth. That which (a lot of it) I had to confirm for myself first. It would be the only way I would feel safe. If I stood on the truth I would be O.K., I thought. But it hasn't been easy to sort out the truth. I can wish that more people in the know would have made things easier, but it looks like some choose to keep silent, some have moved on and still others have translated, or died.

Years ago there was no arguing with certain people on this and other sites about the Eckankar history stuff. Not many seemed to really listen. I discovered something though. I discovered the importance of citing substantial examples and evidence about where i was coming from.

So look for yourself. Know that I didn't "move on", but instead moved to catagorize, illustrate and research the findings of others. In the process I found things that others might not have mentioned, or known, so in the end I contributed my own 2 percent.

What I wanted to know most all along was who, or what was Rebazar Tarzs really? I know what Eckankar says and also know what I have seen. Yet I am less a fool to believe anything and everything spewed out the mouth of organized religion no matter what the fancy names dawned by the leaders.

Maybe my story has a good ending after all :) I'm far less afraid now to challenge authority compared to when I first came into this life. Especially religious authority!

Etznab

P.S. More than one person knows how to write a book.

[Etznab]

Typo correction.

[Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck Master Gopal Das & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version.]

should read

[Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version.]

[Etznab]

In Paul Twitchell's writings Jesus was apparently replaced by more than simply Gopal Das. For example:

The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:

"When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."

The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:

"When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
`I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."


The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":

Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
Divine Grace.'"

The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":

Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
Grace.'"

http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html

"[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
who might have commanded any army — so great was his mental energy —
walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
splendors of Rome. [....]"

Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
432, 2nd paragraph.

http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt


"[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"

Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
paragraph.

***

Jesus becomes Gopal Das? Lai Tsi? Rebazar Tarzs? Yaubl Sacabi?

[Santim Vah]

RE

Jesus becomes Gopal Das? Lai Tsi? Rebazar Tarzs? Yaubl Sacabi?

The Guru can appear to the Disciple in any guise .. even as a beggar!

<smiling>

[Etznab]

Some of my findings, so far, about Paul Twitchell's book, The Key to Eckankar.

The Key to Eckankar is about 43 pages of text. Similarities (near or exact) between text for The Key to Eckankar and writings of Neville Goddard appear on, or about pp. 5-6; the writings of Talbot Mundy, p. 6; Neville Goddard pp. 6-7; Thomas Troward, pp. 8-9; Talbot Mundy, p. 14; Neville Goddard, p. 17; Joel Goldsmith, p. 19; Talbot Mundy, pp. 23-25, 27; Scientology Dynamics, p. 27; Neville Goddard, p. 28; Scientology Axioms, p. 37; Joel Goldsmith, pp. 40-42.

This is a list of the books and links.

The Power of Awareness, Neville Goddard (1952)

http://ia600202.us.archive.org/11/items/ThePowerOfAwareness/Neville_ThePowerOfAwareness.pdf

Old Ugly Face, Talbot Mundy (1940)

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

Lectures on Mental Science, Thomas Troward (1909)

http://www.archive.org/stream/edinburghlecture00trow#page/n7/mode/2up

Scientology, Hubbard (1950s?)

http://learn.scientology.org/wis4_12.htm

Practicing the Presence, Joel S. Goldsmith (1958)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith

The Key to Eckankar ("1968")

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

Today I finished illustrating some similarities (near and exact) between Paul Twitchell (1968) and Joel Goldsmith (1958). The length includes about fourteen paragraphs from The Key to Eckankar and I'm not quite sure how to begin sharing them here. Maybe I can do it paragraph by paragraph.

I will begin with quoting The Key to Eckankar (in which case Rebazar Tarzs is reportedly the speaker; so the text mostly appears in quotes), followed by the approximate page numbers (for TKTE). After that I will illustrate corresponding quotes by Goldsmith, as is.

TKTE - p. 19:

"We only have to prove this in one direction and we shall have it proved in every direction. The whole secret lies in the word heart, or what we call consciousness. An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is All is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth fully realized via ECKANKAR is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so we will see all of life through that understanding."

PTP - Goldsmith (2nd paragraph, p. 19)

  The whole secret lies in the word "consciousness". An intellectual knowledge of the fact that God is all is of no value. The only value any truth has is in the degree of its realization. Truth realized is spiritual consciousness. If we are conscious of the presence of the Lord, if we are conscious of the activity of God, then so it is unto us.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith

TKTE - p. 40

"Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth we read and hear, the more truth is active in our consciousness. We learn to abide in the world by putting truth into ourselves. This is the first step on the way to God."

PTP - p. 20

Spiritual consciousness is attained through the activity of truth in consciousness. Dwelling on scriptural quotations or statements of truth helps to spiritualize thought. The more truth that we read and hear, the more active is truth in our consciousness. Thus we learn to abide in the Word. This is the first step on the Way.

TKTE - p. 40

"The second step cannot be taken unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years we spend in reading truth, attending services, lectures, and classes are fruitful in leading us to that point where inspiration flows from within our own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth."

PTP - p. 21

The second step, which leads to a state of consciousness where we are receptive and responsive to the still small voice, cannot be taken, however, unless the first step has been mastered, that is, knowing the letter of truth. All the years that a person has spent in reading truth, hearing truth, thinking truth, attending church services, lectures, or classes are fruitful in leading him to that point where inspiration flows from within his own being. This inspiration, however, usually comes only after a thorough grounding in the letter of truth.

TKTE - p. 40

"Yaubl Sacabi told me long ago, 'Let my spirit dwell in you. And so shall the SUGMAD be exalted so that you will bear the harvest of good deeds.'   
"To live in this truth, to abide in the Word, is to bear the harvest of all things in the richest manner: that is, to live harmoniously in the spiritual senses. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in It, and let It live in us, we become as the branch of a tree that is cut off and withers away. 
"How can we live in the Word if we do not know It? We must know the Truth. We must learn what the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a principle with which to work, and let us stand on this principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us is realized. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciousness of truth, which is the Word of the SUGMAD and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God can achieve that realization - the grace of God will guarantee it.

PTP - p. 21

Jesus tells us to let "my words abide in you. ... Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit." To live in that truth, to abide in that Word, is to bear fruit richly, that is, to live harmoniously, spiritual lives. But if we forget to live in the Word, to abide in it, and let it abide in us, we become as branches that are cut off and wither. How can we abide in this Word if we do not know it? We must know the truth. We must learn that the correct letter of truth is. Let us have a specific principle with which to work and let us stand on that principle, until the moment comes when we feel that spiritual awareness within us, which is realization. Then we shall know that we have attained the spirit of truth, the consciouness of truth, which is the Word of God and is power. Anyone with a sufficient desire for a realization of God will guarantee it.

... To be continued

[Etznab]

[Keep in mind Joel S. Goldsmith's book was called Practicing The Presence and that another phrase he used (and a book by that same name) was called The Infinite Way.]

***

... continuing from earlier post

TKTE - p. 41

"It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be the branch that withers away, unless we live so completely in the Word and let this Word live in us so that the Very Spirit dwells in us-the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of It, but most of us are as unaware of It as we are of the blood coursing through our veins. God is with us, God's presence fills all space, the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many have felt that presence? It is talked about, prayed for, theorized over, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced! It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence, which is necessary." 

PTP - pp. 21-22

It is possible to know all the truth found in the letter of truth and still be a branch that withereth, until we so abide in the Word and let this Word abide in us that the very Spirit of God.  There is a Spirit in man. There actually is a Spirit - the Spirit of God in man. No man is devoid of it, but most of us are as unaware of it as we are of the blood coursing through our bodies. God is with us. God's presence fills all space; the Spirit of God dwells in us. But how many people have felt that Presence? It is talked about, prayed about, theorized about, and sermonized about; but It is not experienced. It is the conscious awareness, the actual feeling or realization of the Presence which is necessary. 

TKTE - p. 41

"In most religious teachings, we are told that God is everywhere, but this is not true in the sense of prevalence. If the Spirit of God were everywhere, all persons would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. The Spirit of God is present only where It is Realized. This is why we are all trying to become channels for Spirit." 

PTP - p. 22

  In most religious teachings, we are told that the Spirit God is everywhere, but that is not true. If the Spirit of the Lord were everywhere, everybody would be free, healthy, wealthy, independent, joyous, and harmonious. No. the Spirit of the Lord is present only where it is realized.

TKTE - p. 41  

"Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then as far as we are concerned, we do not have the realization of this Spirit. It is like electricity (which is everywhere, just as the Spirit of God is), but electricity is of little use or value to anyone unless it is connected in some way for a particular use. So it is with the Spirit of God. It is everywhere in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized." 

PTP - p. 22-23

Unless we feel the actual presence of God, then, as far as we are concerned, we do not have this Spirit. Again, it is a case of rolling up the window shades, or it is like saying that electricity is everywhere. That is true. Electricity is everywhere just as the Spirit of God is everywhere. Electricity, however, will be of no value to us, unless it is connected in some way for our particular use. So it is with this Spirit of God. It is everywhere, in an absolute, spiritual sense, but It is only effective in our experience to the extent to which It is realized.

TKTE - pp. 41-42
 
"Anyone following the path of ECKANKAR cannot go through a day satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious realization of truth going on all the time. This does not mean he is going to neglect his human duties and activities. It means that he is going to train himself to have some area in his consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look at the forms of nature as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and live within the Word."

PTP - p. 23

  The student of spiritual wisdom cannot go through his day, satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning, or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious activity of truth going on all the time. That does not mean that we neglect our human duties and activities; it means that we train himself to have some area of consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look out at forms of nature such as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and to abide in the Word.   

TKTE - p. 42

"So it is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in all scriptures, but mainly in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, the Way of the Eternal."

PTP - pp. 23-24

It is important to learn all that we can about the correct letter of truth, to understand every principle, and then to practice these principles until we go from an intellectual knowledge to an inner awareness of them. We build our foundation on specific principles. Some of these principles are found in scripture: Christian, Hebrew, and Oriental. Some of them are not found in any written form, but nevertheless, they are known to all the mystics of the world. The further we go in this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem, we do not have to think consciously of any of them.   

TKTE - p. 41

"The deeper we go into this work, the more necessary it is that we know every one of these principles. They are the foundation of our understanding, and they must become so much a part of us that when we are faced with a problem we do not have to consciously think of them. 
"Someday I will give these principles to you for publication. An understanding of the principles of spiritual living - that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth - is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship is to God. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble in a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth so that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being."  

PTP - p. 25

An understanding of the principles of spiritual living, that is, a knowledge of the correct letter of truth, is necessary. That is the foundation upon which we build, so that we understand where we are going and why, and what our relationship to God and our fellowman is. It is necessary that we know these things so that we do not stumble into a blind faith that at some time or another may desert us. We need to know the correct letter of truth in order that we do not find ourselves in a state of mental chaos, relying on one thing today and on another tomorrow, never coming to an understanding of that which is. A spiritual life cannot be built without an understanding of God - the nature and character of God, the nature of God's law, and the nature of God's being.

TKTE - p. 42

"It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let God operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night until the actual awareness comes gradually. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be living in the world and shall gather in the harvest of Souls."

PTP - p. 26

It is possible for anyone to change the trend of his life, not by hearing or reading truth, but by making it an active part of his consciousness in daily experience, until it becomes a habit every moment of the day, instead of an occasional thought. Let these principles operate in the consciousness morning, noon, and night, until gradually the actual awareness comes. Then we make the transition from being hearers of the Word to being doers of the Word. Then we shall be abiding in the Word and shall bear fruit richly. [... .]

***

OK that's about the best I can do right now for the similarities between Twitchell and Goldsmith that I've found so far. I have them all in a different format, and where the paragraphs are not broken up, that might be possible to share in the future. I also have examples from the other authors listed on this thread. Bear in mind I am still researching Paul Twitchell's book The Key to Eckankar and may not have found all similarities (near and exact) to date when the book (or what Rebazar Tarzs reportedly said) is compared with other authors and their books. Most of them copyrighted.

There is also Harold Klemp's Introduction for the 2003 version of TKTE that I want to append to this thread. Along with what he had to say about Rebazar Tarzs.

***

Ref# 41391720-9790-The Key to Eckankar vs. Practicing The Presence (Joel S. Goldsmith)

[Etznab]

Typo correction. I had "train himself" in Goldsmith's version where the correct words were "train ourselves". There may be other typos I missed ... and so I recommend comparing the two texts where accuracy might be in doubt.

TKTE - pp. 41-42

"Anyone following the path of ECKANKAR cannot go through a day satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious realization of truth going on all the time. This does not mean he is going to neglect his human duties and activities. It means that he is going to train himself to have some area in his consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look at the forms of nature as trees, flowers, or oceans, or whether we are meeting people, we find some measure of God in each experience. We train ourselves to behold the presence and activity of God in everything around us and live within the Word."

PTP - p. 23

The student of spiritual wisdom cannot go through his day, satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning, or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious activity of truth going on all the time. That does not mean that we neglect our human duties and activities; it means that we train ourselves to have some area of consciousness always active in truth. Whether we look out at forms of nature such as trees,

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:09:07 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:

The Key to Eckankar 1968, 1985, 1992, 2003. The 2003 version contained an Introduction by Harold Klemp. For "educational purposes", quoting ...

Introduction

First printed in 1968 the The Key to ECKANKAR was one of the early books that
introduced people to that wonderful Tibetan ECK Master, Rebazar Tarzs. His conversation with Paul is a historical document that reflects Paul Twitchell's state of consciousness at that time.

This book proved to be a stabilizing force in the lives of early ECK initiates.
A small but important book, it is a good start for the individual who wants to measure himself alongside Paul, who is certain to be reckoned as the spiritual giant of his age.

In the first few pages, Rebazar talks interchangeably of the SUGMAD (God) and the ECK (Holy Spirit). We know the difference between the Source of all life, and ITS voice. Rebazar was referring to the Divine Principle that created our
consciousness, and how IT relates to us here and now.

Heady reading, the dialogue between Rebazar Tarzs and Paul is best read a little at a time. One may then reflect upon the statements that seem to be obscure. But every word in this conversation is important, for Rebazar outlines the struggles one faces when he comes into the full scope of God-Realization. This is vital knowledge for all who are destined to enter into God Consciousness and survive on earth as Co-workers with God.

A central point is that all knowledge and wisdom are never given to a Soul. This plus factor in ECK rekindles the light of exploration and adventure. Even the ECK Masters high in the spiritual hierarchy are still learning the SUGMAD's ways. The worlds of God are ever expanding, and no limits of time or space can contain them or the Souls who dwell there.

How important is the reading of books and attendance at lectures and classes on truth? Rebazar says that the individual first has to get "the correct letter of truth" before he can live in the spirit of truth. He tells how this is done.

This classic book from the early years of ECKANKAR is to be read thoughtfully. If read and contemplated upon by someone who loves truth, The Key to ECKANKAR will show him the way into the loving, but fragile, marriage with the Holy ECK.

Perhaps he will in time become a spiritual giant too.

Sri Harold Klemp

... end quote.

***

More about TKTE (and similar quotes) can be obtained by searching the a.r.e. archives for the following key words: 41391720-9790. Just type that number into the box at top and click Search for '41391720-9790' in alt.religion.eckankar

[Santim Vah]

RE :: The 2003 version contained an Introduction by Harold Klemp. For "educational purposes", quoting ...

That Intro by HK was ORIGINALLY INSERTED since the 1985 EDITION - I have that original booklet form 1985

This ITE is still being sold by Eckankar today.

IN past times it was reported by many (incl on a.r.e.) that it was no longer available and they compared it to what happened with TFC book.

Well it is still for sale, and always has been for sale to this day.

Please read harold's Intro in light of this, and what is known in 2012, and what he personally knew *should have been aware of* in 1985 when he personally and knowingly "penned" this little bullshit story in his own hand .. not Paul's.

Harold Klemp has been in possession of Paul's original archives and original typed and hand edited manuscripts since 1984.

Harold Klemp has direct personal knowledge which he has consciously,
intentionally, and repeatedly WITHHELD FROM ECKANKAR MEMBERS AND
THE PUBLIC FOR OVER 30 YEARS NOW.

People might lie to write to him direct and ask him why this is so?

cheers Sean

[Etznab]

With regard to Thomas Troward, pp. 8-9 it could be an error (at this point) as the corresponding text I had in my notes does not appear to match (I've been trying to juggle too much information).

There is another author and book that looks interesting, but at this point I am not sure about how many matches.

Time And Eternity, An Essay In The Philosophy Of Religion, by W. T. Stace (1952, 1959)

http://www.archive.org/stream/timeandeternitya008849mbp/timeandeternitya008849mbp_djvu.txt

I think Stace had something to do with this other article too.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/106474179/Man-Against-Darkness-1953

[Etznab]

Might be something here.

See p. 33 THE COSMIC BUDDHA (book first published 1960)

http://tinyurl.com/ansdhnr

Compare with pp. 10-11 The Key to Eckankar (1968). Example: "The mystical body of the SUGMAD is real ... ."

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 5:39:02 PM UTC-6, Etznab wrote:

No. It looks like that was a different article by the same name. However, these look more like it.

http://keithburgess-jackson.typepad.com/blog/walter-terence-stace-1886-1967/

[Etznab]

Another apparent Buddhist source for The Key to Eckankar. See last section - 18. Buddhism. Seng Ts'an, On Trust in the Heart

http://www.preterhuman.net/texts/religion.occult.new_age/WORLDSCRIPTURE/theme022.out

***

Here is the similar text - quoted from another source.

Do not chase after Entanglements as though they were real things,
Do not try to drive pain away by pretending that it is not real;
Pain, if you seek serenity in Oneness, will vanish of its own accord.
Stop all movement in order to get rest, and rest will itself be restless;
Linger over either extreme, and Oneness is for ever lost.
[...]
The more you talk about It, the more you think about It, the further from It you go;
Stop talking, stop thinking, and there is nothing you will not understand.
Return to the Root and you will find the Meaning;
[...]
There is no need to seek Truth; only stop having views.
[...]
Ignorance creates Rest and Unrest; Wisdom neither loves nor hates.
[...]
Regard motion as though it were stationary, and what becomes of motion?
Treat the stationary as though it moved, and that disposes of the stationary.
Both these having thus been disposed of, what becomes of the One?
At the ultimate point, beyond which you can go no further,
You get to where there are no rules, no standards,
To where thought can accept Impartiality,
To where effect of action ceases,
Doubt is washed away, belief has no obstacle.
Nothing is left over, nothing remembered;
[...]
Being is an aspect of Non-being; Non-being is an aspect of Being.

http://www.mendosa.com/way4.htm

Compare with pp. 21 (beginning 2nd-last paragraph) and 22 (1st paragraph) from The Key to Eckankar.

 "Pain is like the Light of God. Do not chase the Light of God as though It were a real thing. Do not try to drive away pain by pretending that it is not real. If you seek serenity in God, pain will vanish of its own accord. Stop a1l movement in order to get rest, but rest itself will be restless. Linger over either extreme and God is lost to you. Those who cannot attain God in either case will fail. The more you talk about IT, the more you think about IT, the further from IT you go.    
"Stop talking, stop thinking, and there is nothing you will not understand. Return to God and you will find the meaning of IT. There is no need to seek Truth, only stop having views. Ignorance creates rest and unrest; wisdom neither loves nor hates. Regard motion as though it were stationary and what becomes of motion? Treat the stationary as though it moves, and that disposes of the stationary. Both these having been disposed of, what becomes of he One? You have reached the ultimate point, beyond which you can go no further. You get to where there are no rules, no standards, to where thought can accept impartiality, to where effect of action ceases. Doubt is washed away, belief has no obstacles. Nothing is left over, nothing is important, and you find Being an Aspect of Non-Being, and Non-Being an aspect of the Being, All of which is God.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

***

To recap, The Key to Eckankar is about 43 pages of text. Similarities (near or exact) between text for The Key to Eckankar and the writings of Neville Goddard appear on, or about pp. 5-6; the writings of Talbot Mundy, p. 6; Neville Goddard pp. 6-7; W. T. Stace, pp. 8-9; Christmas Humphreys, p. 10, Talbot Mundy, p. 14; Neville Goddard, pp. 16-17; Joel Goldsmith, pp. 18-19; Sengtsan, pp. 21-22, Talbot Mundy, pp. 23-25, 27; Scientology Dynamics, p. 27; Neville Goddard, p. 28; Scientology Axioms, p. 37; Joel Goldsmith, pp. 40-42.

And Harold Klemp, in his Introduction for The Key to Eckankar, writes:

"First printed in 1968, The Key to ECKANKAR was one of the early books that introduced people to that wonderful Tibetan ECK Master, Rebazar Tarzs. His conversation with Paul is a historical document that reflects Paul Twitchell's state of consciousness at that time."

***

About when Rebazar Tarzs was reportedly born.

"He [Rebazar Tarzs] was born in a western province of China, near Chamdo, on the border of Tibet."

[Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers (1968?) by Paul Twitchell, Second Printing 1987, p. 138]

"... as is Rebazar Tarzs, the great ECK Master who has lived here since 1452. [... .]"

[Based on: Herbs The Magic Healers (1968?) by Paul Twitchell, Second Printing 1987, p. 211]

"Rebazar Tarzs was born in the year of 1461, in the mountain village of Sarana in northern Tibet. He developed into mastership under the spiritual guidance of Yaubl Sacabi. It was he who was responsible for Christopher Columbus' inner guidance. He stayed on earth for seventy-five years [until 1536?] teaching ECK, then he retired in the same body to the mountainous vastness of the Himalayas. He has spiritually developed several ECK Masters, and is responsible for the passing of the Rod of ECK power from one master to his successor. He also developed spiritually Peddar Zaskq [Paul Twitchell]."

[Based on: The Spiritual Notebook, by Paul Twitchell, 10th printing 1983, pp. 193-194]

Seng-Ts'an was reportedly born in the 6th Century.

http://www.selfdiscoveryportal.com/cmSengTsan.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zen/fm/fm.htm

[Etznab]

From p. 11 of the Key to Eckankar:

"You see, the perfect way is difficult only for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike, and all shall be clear. Make the hairsbreadth of a distinction and then all heaven and earth will be set apart from you."

Compare with:

The Perfect Way is only difficult for those who pick and choose; Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference, and Heaven and Earth are set apart;

http://www.mendosa.com/way4.htm

[Etznab]

This is starting to get ridiculous.

Search the following documents for the words: the connection. Example:

"Wasn't it he who wrote `Lead, Kindly Light'?"

"Yes. He also wrote: `Knowledge is one thing, virtue is another ... Philosophy, however enlightened, however profound, gives no command over the passions, no influential motives, no vivifying principles.' Memorize that, and have nothing to do with philosophy, it's no good."

"But how does that fit the influenza epidemic? I don't see the connection."

"I knew, what every genuine thinker has known since the dawn of history, that epidemics -- and endemics, too, are a product of the subconscious mind of humanity. The only actual substance of that stuff is the fear that builds up the illusion and all its consequences. That is why Jesus called it `a liar, and the father of it.' The mass mind fears and consequently creates vengeance upon its own secret swinishness. [... .]

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/mundy/ugfa10.html

Compare with:

"Now remember this. As the great spiritual guru Yaubl Sacabi once said, 'Knowledge is one thing, virtue is another.' No matter how enlightening it may be, philosophy gives no command over the passions, no influential motives, no inescapable principles. It is not worth much in the crises of mankind. How can it help in time of epidemics?"

I said, "I don't get the connection."

"All right, you know what every genuine thinker has known since the dawn of time: that epidemics (and endemics, too) are a product of the submind of humanity. The only actual substance is the fear that builds up the illusion and all its consequences. This is why Jesus spoke of the devil, the submind, as a liar and the father of it. The mass mind fears and consequently creates vengeance upon itself. It is the father of spiritual arrogance. [... .]"

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

***

Apparently, Paul Twitchell appropriated part of a dialogue from Talbot Mundy's
1940 book and changed the names.

That was just a small example.

[Etznab]

> who might have commanded any army -- so great was his mental energy --

> walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
> the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
> splendors of Rome. [....]"
>
> Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
> 432, 2nd paragraph.
>
> http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
>
>
> "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
> spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
> when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
> Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
> walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
> that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
> greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
>
> Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
> Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
> copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
> paragraph.
>
> ***
>
> Jesus becomes Gopal Das? Lai Tsi? Rebazar Tarzs? Yaubl Sacabi?

The Flute of God, by Paul Twitchell, was also one of the earliest examples of name replacements. This, at a time when Eckankar was just forming and becoming a non-profit religion.

[mrti...@verizon.net]

On Monday, September 17, 2012 at 10:09:10 PM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:
> On Monday, September 17, 2012 8:50:16 PM UTC-5, Santim Vah wrote:
> > Wouldn't Harold Klemp and Eckankar know about this stuff?
> >
> >
> >

Isn't that the problem with most organized religion; the messenger is (or becomes) more important than the message? I never really felt that way about religious founders. The Bhagavad Gita was one of the first of the spiritual writings I read all the way through. It never really mattered to me whether the Krishna character was a real, historical, living being, or not. It was the message being imparted that was important, that mattered. It was only years later, after looking into esoteric teachings, that I found out that the Krishna character was indicative of the Higher Self, or Atman, of everyone, and that what he embodied, as an Archetype, was what everyone is in essence. But I didn't know about that when I first read it. It just spoke to me. I resonated to the message. The messenger mattered not.

Was it Paul Twitchell's original intention to create a new religion, and Rebazar Tarzs was to be the new Krishna? And that it was supposed to be a myth, which became literally true, after he died, by his followers, and they've tried to hide it all of these years? Or did they think this RT character was literally real from the beginning? You know that Carlos Castaneda wrote his books in a similar style, with this Don Juan character as a sorcerer, or shaman, who supposedly showed Castaneda all of these magical powers and wisdom, and it was found out later that this character was totally made up by Castaneda. During the time that I was reading his books, I just assumed he was a real person, although he did seem to possess supernatural powers that were hard to believe. Does it matter to me now, that I know the truth? Not really. It stimulated my imagination at the time, when I was reading it. But I didn't feel any kind of religious devotion to what he was saying as truth, supposedly coming from Don Juan's mouth.

Did Paul Twitchell have the same idea in mind? Present this Rebazar Tarzs character as the embodiment of wisdom, with all of this supernatural knowledge and powers, and then later come out with the truth that he was a character like Krishna, Don Juan, or Hercules, who was an archetype for this high state of consciousness? Or did Twitchell's sudden death occur before his real intentions came out, so the truth never came out, and his closest followers didn't know either, and didn't know what to do? 'Do we make him real, or a mythical, imaginary archetype'? I stopped investigating Eckankar when I found contradictions in Twitchell's books, and stuff just didn't sound right. I was spending all of this money on his books, and they all seemed to rehash the same things, except for the contradictions. That raised a lot of suspicion in me. It was only many years later that I found out about the plagiarizing that things started making sense. He was quoting from so many different sources, that contradictions were bound to happen. Saying one thing is truth, coming from one book, and then saying the complete opposite is truth, coming from another book. Then I found on the internet that others were saying similar things.

[Henosis Sage]

------

Hello Mr T., I can relate to the things you're saying. Answering the questions is not that easy. Hard to know what Twitchell really had in mind, planned or expected himself. One needs to dig through the snippets that still exist and make up their own mind or just not bother with it (which may be the easiest safest way to go).

Irrespective of that imo one word sums up Paul T and his creating of eckankar - incompetent. Just my opinion. Many things feed into that conclusion.

Some of my more strident commentary about Twitchell and Marman - and others interesting comments pop up in these threads fwiw.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/2qsIUsbbqjo/ii5HKPgLCAAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/ZRg0pwKu1jQ/vxAINzoSCAAJ

2002 posted by Michael Wallace
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.religion.eckankar/VD6jyeOBYWY/UJcYRkyucZMJ

I know the man MW is saying told him/Ela this story about Twitchell - Jason Chandler is a credible person (despite the eckist naysayers) a doctor/teacher see here http://ayurvedahouse.com.au/blog/?page_id=385
see my 2016 repost comments and the rest of the thread here -
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Nd9xVpJAUR8/qWnCpUcHAgAJ

As an old mate once said: "how can you follow a spiritual master who lies to you for decades?"
He was talking primarily about HK ...

Some documented historical matters you may find of interest:

Where was Paul's head at just before he died?
1971-09-16 DOBTLEM Part 2 - Twitchell Last Words business meeting 1of 2 [1980]
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPNU1Ja042MVVzcHc/view?usp=sharing
and pt 2
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPNnVXck03OHAxWnM/view?usp=sharing

1971-09-17 Gail Twitchell on Paul's translation, Marriage, DG appointment as LEM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPcGh2Q2N2RFpaMEE/view?usp=sharing
and
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPZ2JhTjh0Zi1MZ2c/view?usp=sharing

RT important in 1972
1972-12 People on the Move Soul Travel by Patti Simpson PROBE Magazine (OCR Text)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPWHpoTDBWNTZ5UFE/view?usp=sharing

An Alt version of Eckankar
1973 Helen Frye, Pat Henderson, Charlie Wallace took me Under their Wings
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPNkxXTUxSNldGaWM/view?usp=sharing

1975 Professor John E Sutphin ex-Eckist early Twitchell plagiarism history researcher
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPU0xzOFdPUV84ZVU/view?usp=sharing
and
1976-01-08 Prof John E Sutphin letter to Brad Steiger re IMSIAF Plagiarism Darwin Gross Bio (OCR Text)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPaHlYQTk3NTdKN3M/view?usp=sharing
and
1977-05-22 Prof John E Sutphin to David Lane re Steiger Twitchell re-writes Research
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPZXVEdURIeVlWbkU/view?usp=sharing

1976 – 1985 mini-Timeline of Eckankar events aka 'things go really whacko'
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPZjVqTE1aOW02UW8/view?usp=sharing

WS Parrot's cousin married Carlos Castenada - she mentions him several times!
1969-01 Paul Twitchell & Eckankar in 1969 - A 2013 Interview with Wanda Sue Parrott
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPX056VTR1dGJlU0U/view?usp=sharing

Hubris is not uncommon. Marman now thinks his latest book is up there with or better than the I Ching and he's smarter more knowledgeable than Quantum scientists.

I'm more inclined to think CG Jung (as mentioned recently here) was somewhat sharper than either Twitchell, HK, or a Marman. eg http://www.iging.com/intro/foreword.htm

He was certainly more honest and less self-deluded imho. and a thousand times more competent.

cheers, keep well.

[Etznab]

"[...] He was quoting from so many different sources, that contradictions were bound to happen. Saying one thing is truth, coming from one book, and then saying the complete opposite is truth, coming from another book. Then I found on the internet that others were saying similar things. [... .]"

I can relate. For example, in the Ruhani Satsang and Radhasoami paths a living teacher is important.

Twitchell evidently used verbatim word for word descriptions from TPotM about what is a genuine living master. It didn't say anything about making up pseudo history by plagiarizing words from many authors and then crediting a literary device, or fictional character instead.

The fact that not only many initiates, but also Paul Twitchell's successors were surprised to discover plagiarisms and a "growing list" of appropriated material ascribed to supposedly living masters from the Eckankar lineage tells a whole story in and by itself.

It is not the fault of Paul's successors and not the fault, or responsibility, of Eckankar initiates to be liable for what they did not create. Instead, I put liability on all those who created and propagated the myths long after the truth appeared in black and white. IMHO, these are the individuals liable for the spreading of lies and that seriously need to look at their motives and the repercussions compounded over time.

All who have come to a.r.e. have witnessed people who once belonged to the same religion as fellow initiates and members and the arguments between both of the sides of this plagiarism / pseudo history issue.

[Etznab]

IMO, this is how wars begin in their infant stages such as the wars of religion history has already seen. It stems from one group subscribing to pseudo history as literal truth and another side believing in something else. The truth needs to come out in order to dispel the myths or else people will continue making up stories and creating more strife.

The fact that Kinpa on multiple occasions denied my Eckankar membership is but another sign of which I speak. He can't handle the truth and becomes angry and disturbed about it to the extent of making up lies. In other words, he clearly and knowingly is fighting the truth because it is something he can't accept. It is this type of behavior that creates fanatics who act out and justify the act of spreading lies.

In sum, the real problem about making up false information is something clearly illustrated here in this newsgroup. The lies, the anger, the denial and pretend loving sincerity. As an active Eckist I have not chosen to let the wolves run rampant and gorging on chicken dinners. Instead I confront them with the truth because I know they cannot win against it; only in their dreams. And I know that Eckankar will be the better for including truth and clarifying fiction from fact where the truth is beyond a doubt know.

[Kinpa]

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have NEVER shown any evidence to prove that you are a member, while your public commentary on Eckankar and its facets demonstrates very clearly that you are in no way a part of it. Show proof or it won't stop. I am not offering you a choice in the matter. There is nothing that you can do about it either. It is unfortunate that you continue to speak my name....learn the hard way then mr. "mirror"....do you realize that the only meaning of the term etznab as a mirror is a black mirror? everything the mirror shows is black, sort of funny if you ask me!

> In sum, the real problem about making up false information is something clearly illustrated here in this newsgroup. The lies, the anger, the denial and pretend loving sincerity. As an active Eckist I have not chosen to let the wolves run rampant and gorging on chicken dinners. Instead I confront them with the truth because I know they cannot win against it; only in their dreams. And I know that Eckankar will be the better for including truth and clarifying fiction from fact where the truth is beyond a doubt know.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes you have made your opinions clear, but you have also made false claims that you have never been able to prove. Sounds like your usual double standard. Your meanings and interpretations of things are correct (in your view) but those anyone else has are not, unless they agree with you. You have never confronted anyone with any truth. If you saw any actual truth, you would turn tail and run and hide....perhaps you should cease to be so overly attached to your own opinions, and also being so attached to the written word.....an ECKist wouldn't be, so why is it that you are? Why do you never go within? Scared of something? Or just unable to? Anyhow, enjoy what your words have wrought for you this time....until you finally DO learn...

[mrti...@verizon.net]

I read all of the links you provided. Very interesting. VERY. Is it possible to send a PM?

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 28 May 2016 00:55:28 UTC+10, mrti...@verizon.net wrote:
> I read all of the links you provided. Very interesting. VERY. Is it possible to send a PM?

go here and reply to author if you wish.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Wle6bykppIc/QrxGTmbXBAAJ