JFK Assassination Forum Archives -- Misc. Topics Of Interest (Part 139)

So, now the CTers can move the goal posts again when looking at the
undeformed Fackler bullet, by claiming (incredibly) that CE399 is
DEFORMED TOO MUCH to have caused all the damage it did to John B.
Connally's wrist.

Colin, you'd better go have a talk with Dr. Cyril Wecht about your
"It's not pristine enough" comment re: CE399. He'd love to hear that,
because Dr. Wecht has always fought tooth-&-nail over the fact that
CE399 is much too "pristine" to have caused Connally's bony injuries.
Maybe Wecht has never seen the Fackler test bullet before.

Anyway, Colin, thanks for today's smile. Just when I think that maybe
I've heard it all, I'm treated to a new twist in the JFK case....like
Colin Crow saying that Commission Exhibit 399 is "not pristine
enough".

I love it!

------------

FACKLER ADDENDUM:

BTW, the reason for Fackler's bullet not being somewhat flattened on
one side (like CE399) is probably due to the fact that the test bullet
did not hit and break a rib bone. Here's what Dr. Alfred Olivier's
test bullet looked like after striking just a "glancing blow" on one
rib of a goat:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/servlet/PageImage?mode=getPage&fileName=nary-wcmisc-01_0001_0043&pageId=760789&mag=null&monochrome=true&extension=.png&rotatation=default&actualWidth=12240&orientation=portrait

BTW #2, the Edgewood Arsenal "Wound Ballistics Of 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-
Carcano Ammunition" report is very interesting reading. More
conspiracy theorists should look at it. Here it is:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=62296

Every single test performed between April 1964 and October 1964 by Dr.
Olivier and Dr. Dziemian at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland is consistent
with the Warren Commission's ultimate conclusions.

I.E.:

Per the Edgewood Arsenal ballistics tests with Lee Harvey Oswald's
rifle, that exact rifle was capable of causing all of the wounds that
were inflicted on JFK and Governor Connally on 11/22/63.

Quoting directly from the Edgewood report:

"Experiments were performed with the 6.5-mm Mannlicher-Carcano
assassination rifle, serial no. C2766, and 6.5-mm Western Cartridge
Company, lot WCC 6000, Mannlicher-Carcano ball ammunition to reproduce
the conditions occurring at the time of the assassination of President
John F. Kennedy on 22 November 1963. The results indicated that the
wounds sustained by the President and by Governor Connally, including
the massive head wound of the President, could be produced by the
above type of bullet and rifle." -- From the Edgewood Arsensal Report

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=62296&relPageId=6

>>> "David, I was just playing around. Sorry, couldn't resist." <<<

OK. Fair enough. But with many conspiracy believers, it's often very
difficult to tell "tongue-in-cheek" remarks from "dead serious"
ones. :)

>>> "Good work on the Fritz initials by the way. What did you make of Audrey [Bell's] audio to the ARRB about the fragments?" <<<

Audrey Bell's interview (linked below) with the ARRB's Doug Horne took
place on March 20, 1997, more than 33 years after the events she was
trying to remember. So that fact must always be taken into account.

But Audrey readily admits that she wrote all kinds of stuff on the
outside of the "foreign body" envelope that appears in CE842. She
immediately recognized her writing on that envelope when the ARRB
showed it to her in 1997.

So I'm not really sure how far down "Conspiracy Lane" Robert Harris
can go with the idea that CE842 is a fraud or a fake document of some
kind. Bob obviously wants to believe that there was a SECOND envelope
similar to CE842 that existed on the day of the assassination, with
this never-found second envelope evidently containing a whole bullet
that Harris wants to believe fell out of John Connally's leg in the
operating room.

Such a musical envelopes game is, of course, pure speculation on Mr.
Harris' part, because there is no credible evidence whatsoever that
any whole bullet was retrieved in the operating room and then placed
in an envelope. It's nothing but the fanciful wishful thinking of a
conspiracy theorist. (IMHO.)

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/medical_interviews/audio/ARRB_Bell.htm

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md184/html/md184_0001a.htm

Message has been deleted

David Von Pein

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May 18, 2010, 8:46:07 AM5/18/10

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http://www.JFKAssassinationForum.com/index.php/topic,2495.msg46245.html#msg46245

Ian Kingsbury,

You're not actually suggesting that the CIVILIAN witnesses (Darrell
Tomlinson and O.P. Wright) would be required to initial the bullet
(CE399, that is), are you?

That's nonsense, of course. No civilian witness ever places their
initials on any piece of evidence.

So, according to the CTers who think that EVERY person in the "chain"
must place their initials on every piece of evidence connected to a
criminal case in order for the chain of possession to be maintained
properly, I guess there could never ever be any complete "chain"
presented in a court of law, because no witness who ever picks up a
bullet or a bullet shell (like Darrell Tomlinson, Virginia Davis,
Barbara Davis, and Domingo Benavides) has placed their initials on any
of that evidence.

So that fact breaks the chain right there -- right from the very
beginning.

>>> "You will notice, David, I did not mention any civilians in my post..." <<<

Yes, I know you didn't. And that's precisely the point I was trying to
get across. Various civilians saw and handled CE399 first (as well as
all four bullet shells at the Tippit murder scene). And yet nobody
expects those civilian witnesses' markings to appear on any of this
ballistics evidence, even though they began the "chain".

>>> "...and for a chain to start it needs an anchor point." <<<

And CE399 does have an anchor point. It's Darrell Tomlinson, who said
he found a whole bullet on a stretcher at Parkland.

And CE842 (the Connally bullet fragments) has an anchor point too.
It's Audrey Bell and the envelope she filled out in her own
handwriting at Parkland Hospital on 11/22/63.

And neither one of those "anchors" needed to put his or her initials
on the evidence in order for the anchor to be legally accepted in a
court of law (quite obviously).

>>> "Do you play chess?" <<<

Not very often. But I do play a mean game of "Battling The JFK
Conspiracy Kooks".

>>> "The rifle would be the first piece to be established by the prosecution, because if you cannot prove it belonged to Oswald, the rest of the evidence would be inadmissible pertaining to Oswald." <<<

This is total nonsense, Ian. The palmprint of Oswald's found on the
rifle would positively be enough evidence to link Oswald to that gun.

Plus there's the fact that Oswald was identified by a witness (yes,
Brennan) firing a RIFLE out of a window on the same floor where the
RIFLE was found. This fact, too, would probably be a good-enough
circumstantial connection to get that rifle admitted into evidence at
Oswald's trial. Ownership of the weapon would not be required.

Of course, we do have the "ownership" link in this case, too. But it's
certainly not an absolute must.

For Pete sake, it's obvious that "ownership" of a murder weapon isn't
a must-have requirement at a trial. If it were, all a killer would
need to do would be to steal or borrow a gun from somebody else and
commit a murder with it, and the killer would be home free.

David Von Pein

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May 18, 2010, 2:59:50 PM5/18/10

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http://www.JFKAssassinationForum.com/index.php/topic,2495.msg46290.html#msg46290

>>> "At least I can still look at things in an unbiased way. I may get a lot of things wrong, but I will have done it without the aid of a panel of sycophants, as were the W.C." <<<

And where will you be at the end of the day?

Answer -- You'll be flooded with the same "Oswald Did It" evidence,
which is evidence that can't possibly ALL be faked, right? (Even you,
a CTer, must admit that the likelihood of ALL of the LHO-incriminating
evidence being fake/planted/forged/manufactured is microscopically
low, right?)

And there hasn't been a single CTer on the planet (to date) who has
proved that even ONE PIECE of the evidence connecting Lee Harvey
Oswald to his two murders is fraudulent.

You suspect it's fake. But a CTer's suspicions aren't proof. In fact,
most of their suspicions are downright silly (when placed right next
to some ordinary "common sense"). CE399 being a prime example. Nobody
has explained the logic of anyone wanting to plant a bullet in the
hospital PRIOR TO 2:00 PM CST ON NOV. 22, when at that time Connally
was still in surgery!

More CTers need to read Jean Davison's book. It should be required
reading at the Jim Garrison School Of Conspiracy Nuts.

http://Oswalds-Game.blogspot.com

>>> "Todd's initials are not present on CE-399." <<<

This is a lie.

FBI Agent Elmer Todd's initials are most certainly on Commission
Exhibit No. 399.

How do we know? Todd identified his initials on the bullet on 6/24/64
[via CE2011].

Let me guess: You, Robert Harris, think Elmer Todd was a rotten liar.
Right?

Anyway, John Hunt just simply couldn't see Todd's initials on the
bullet. In fact, I have a very difficult time seeing ANY of the
initials on the bullet (Frazier's, Cunningham's, or Killion's).

It's not unreasonable to think that Todd's initials are somewhere on
that bullet, but are so faint they cannot be seen in photographs.

Can anybody make out ANY specific initials in these photos? I sure
can't:

http://www.jfklancer.com/hunt/phantom_files/image005.jpg

http://www.jfklancer.com/hunt/phantom_files/image003.jpg

But it really doesn't matter if Todd's initials are on CE399 or not
(although they definitely are on that bullet someplace), because
there's no need for everybody to officially put their mark on a
particular piece of evidence to establish a reasonable chain of
possession at a court trial.

After all, nobody expects to see Darrell C. Tomlinson's or O.P.
Wright's initials on the bullet--and they STARTED the "chain" of
possession.

The chain of possession would easily be established for CE399 even if
NOBODY had initialed that bullet. Each person who handled the bullet
would have testified at Oswald's trial (had there been one) that they
received a whole bullet from the previous person in the "chain".

Mark VII.

http://Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com

Message has been deleted

David Von Pein

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May 21, 2010, 3:37:58 PM5/21/10

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http://www.Box.net/shared/xujj4dyxeg

http://www.Box.net/static/flash/box_explorer.swf?widget_hash=95ybmxvkhn&v=0&cl=0

"I hate bullies." -- Mark Lane

BULLY [Dictionary.com definition]: A blustering, quarrelsome,
overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or
weaker people.

~LOL time~

Here's why I'm laughing:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/8a64790b792f771f

timstter

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May 23, 2010, 5:36:22 PM5/23/10

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On May 22, 5:37 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> http://www.Box.net/shared/xujj4dyxeg
>
> http://www.Box.net/static/flash/box_explorer.swf?widget_hash=95ybmxvk...

>
> "I hate bullies." -- Mark Lane
>
> BULLY [Dictionary.com definition]: A blustering, quarrelsome,
> overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or
> weaker people.
>
> ~LOL time~
>
> Here's why I'm laughing:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/8a64790b792f771f

Sounds like a perfect description of Lane, not to mention other JFK-CT
blowhards like Cyril Wecht.

Regards,

Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*

aeffects

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May 23, 2010, 8:57:32 PM5/23/10

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On May 23, 2:36 pm, timstter <timst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 22, 5:37 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.Box.net/shared/xujj4dyxeg
>
> >http://www.Box.net/static/flash/box_explorer.swf?widget_hash=95ybmxvk...
>
> > "I hate bullies." -- Mark Lane
>
> > BULLY [Dictionary.com definition]: A blustering, quarrelsome,
> > overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or
> > weaker people.
>
> > ~LOL time~
>
> > Here's why I'm laughing:
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/8a64790b792f771f
>
> Sounds like a perfect description of Lane, not to mention other JFK-CT
> blowhards like Cyril Wecht.

you still whining about not seeing your johnson? lose weight fatso!
kindest regards,
aeffects

David Von Pein

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Jun 6, 2010, 3:17:27 AM6/6/10

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THE MURDER OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD:

http://DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/2009/11/lee-harvey-oswald-has-been-shot.html

lazu...@webtv.net

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Jun 6, 2010, 1:16:08 PM6/6/10

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However, one feels about Lane or for some reason can't find any evidence
of conspiracy in JFK's death...ya gotta admit the Govt. in general and
Business intertwined have become bullies...Laz