JFK DEBATES (PART 10)
David Von Pein
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 10):
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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From February 2005,
October 2006, November 2006, and March 2007.
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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Circumstantial evidence is never
sufficient in and of itself to give anything other than a likelihood.
It's an indication, but it's not proof.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- Circumstantial evidence is, many times, the
ONLY type of evidence a prosecutor has to work with in a murder case
(or any type of case). And convictions are often achieved via just
circumstantial evidence and nothing else.
If you've got a mountain of this type of "non-direct" evidence, you've
got a guilty person, beyond a reasonable doubt. And that's what we've
got in the JFK and J.D. Tippit murder cases (not to mention a ton of
physical evidence as well).
Lee Harvey Oswald was guilty (times 2 killings), and the totality of
the evidence proves this to be so.
Or, to use the words of my favorite writer and lawyer, Vincent T.
Bugliosi (who was 105-1 in the L.A. courtroom in his lifetime) -- "A
wealth of only circumstantial evidence is like a thick rope with many,
many strands to it. If one or two, or even three, of those strands are
broken, the strength of the rope is still just barely
diminished....and there are still plenty of strands left to prove the
defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt". (Paraphrased Vince B.
quotation.)
And I wouldn't bet against VB's adamant position when he says the
following (a verbatim quote this time):
"Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in the assassination of President
Kennedy. The evidence is absolutely overwhelming that he carried out
the tragic shooting all by himself. In fact, you could throw 80
percent of the evidence against him out the window and there would
still be more than enough left to convince any reasonable person of
his sole role in the crime." -- V.B.; 1986
~~~~~~
LEE HARVEY OSWALD: AN AMERICAN TRAGEDY.....
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CTer -- The fact that people who should have seen him {Oswald} if he
ran between the 6th-floor sniper's nest and the 2nd-floor lunchroom
saw no such thing.
DVP -- Now it sounds like you've been taking Oliver Stone's film too
much to heart. The "re-creation" of Oswald/Oldman running down the
stairs past the two women (Sandra Styles and Vickie Adams) was a pure
fabrication and distorts the true facts....or, should I say, the
LIKELY facts, since, yes, it's true that nobody can know exactly what
the timeline was after the shooting right down to the second.
But the "best evidence" (if you'll pardon the David Lifton pun) is
that Miss Styles and Miss Adams did not descend that staircase from
their 4th-Floor office until AFTER Lee Oswald had already gone down
those same stairs.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4dd73f8e676a5db8
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/aaeb4a1389e69938
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CTer -- The only evidence as to his {Oswald's} location suggests he
wasn't on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.
DVP -- Totally incorrect. Howard Brennan's testimony is damning to
Oswald (whether the conspiracy kooks want to believe it or not). Plus
the testimony of witnesses named Fischer and Edwards, who described a
man who generally fit LHO's description in the window just seconds
before the motorcade arrived in Dealey Plaza.
Mr. Brennan has been abused and kicked around by the conspiracists for
years. And he's been dealt a rotten hand by CTers too, IMO. Given the
overall evidence that came to light after Brennan saw the 6th-Floor
gunman in the sniper's window, the odds that Brennan saw anyone OTHER
than Lee Harvey Oswald in that window during the assassination of JFK
are extremely low to virtually non-existent.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/a83751f6ce319004
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CTer -- There's documentation to suggest that only two bullets were
fired from that location {the SN in the TSBD} -- or at least, only two
bullet casings were found, not three as was later claimed.
DVP -- That's nothing but CTer-created bunk. Pure and simple. The
evidence in the record (including the police photographs of the Nest)
indicates that THREE shells were found there and marked as evidence.
And all of them fit Oswald's gun "to the exclusion".
Below are CE510 and CE512 (with each exhibit showing three cartridge
cases near the sniper's window on the sixth floor of the Book
Depository):
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0124a.htm
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0125a.htm
Plus: There's Harold Norman. Norman HEARD three shells hit the floor
directly above him, and he heard exactly THREE shots as well. Harold
told Vince Bugliosi in 1986 that he heard "three shells" hitting the
floor...forever debunking the CTer claims that one shell was
conveniently planted after the fact by plotters. .....
VINCENT BUGLIOSI -- "So you heard a total of three shots?"
HAROLD NORMAN -- "Yes, sir."
BUGLIOSI -- "Did it sound to you like a rifle was being fired directly
above you?"
NORMAN -- "Yes, sir."
BUGLIOSI -- "Was there any OTHER reason, in addition to the sound of
the rifle, any other reason why you believed the shots were coming
from directly above you?"
NORMAN -- "Yes, sir."
BUGLIOSI -- "And what is that?"
NORMAN -- "Because I could hear the empty hulls--that's what I call
them--hit the floor; and I could hear the bolt action of the rifle
being pushed back and forward."
BUGLIOSI -- "You're familiar with a bolt-action rifle?"
NORMAN -- "Yes, sir."
BUGLIOSI -- "And by 'hulls', you mean cartridge casings?"
NORMAN -- "Cartridges."
BUGLIOSI -- "How many did you hear falling to the floor?"
NORMAN -- "Three."
BUGLIOSI -- "Is the sound of that bolt action, and the ejection of the
cartridge casings, and their falling to the floor something that
you're going to remember for the rest of your life?"
NORMAN -- "Yes, sir."
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/fa26e26f62263eeb
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CTer -- James Tague said he wasn't stung with the first shot.
DVP -- That's not what he said in Larry Sneed's 1998 book ("No More
Silence"). In it, Tague doesn't seem to have the slightest idea which
shot stung him. He said he didn't even recall being stung on the cheek
until several minutes after the shooting, when Deputy Sheriff Buddy
Walthers pointed out the blood on his face. Per Sneed's book, only
then did Tague remember being peppered by something during the
shooting.
Tague's 1964 testimony in front of the Warren Commission contains a
slightly-different chronology however, with Tague saying he recalled
being stung on the face BEFORE having Walthers point out the blood on
his cheek.
Trying to figure out exactly when (during the short 8-second timeframe
of the shooting) James Tague was struck by something is a difficult
task...at best.
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CTer -- I don't think the things you list tell anyone that Oswald
murdered Tippit.
DVP -- Oh, for heaven sakes! Step out of the CT clouds for once! How
much stuff is required to prove Oswald guilty of Tippit's slaying? The
bum's guilt couldn't be any clearer, even if he had shouted "I did
it!" to the world on national television!
There were gobs of witnesses....his bullet shells were found just
yards from the murder victim (in a place where HE himself was seen
dumping them!)....the murder weapon was on him half-an-hour
later....he tried to kill a cop inside the theater....plus there were
Lee's nicely-incriminating comments in the theater and then in the
police car -- "It's all over now"; "This is it", and "Well, they say
it just takes a second to die".
Lee Harvey Oswald might as well have been drenched with Officer
Tippit's blood when he was caught. His guilt is that obvious.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/cab6361e19ca5bc2
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CTer -- But isn't it true that those people who did identify Oswald as
Tippit's murderer all initially claimed it wasn't him?
DVP -- No. And I have no idea why you'd even say that. There was no
ambiguity at all re. the witnesses who IDed Oswald as Tippit's killer
(or as the LONE MAN who was running from the scene of the crime, with
a gun, depositing shells as he ran). It's as ironclad as can be.
To quote witness Ted Callaway, who thoroughly messed up defense
attorney Gerry Spence at the 1986 Oswald Mock Trial when Ted said this
after Spence asked if Callaway was absolutely certain he could I.D.
Oswald in the police line-up if Oswald had been dressed exactly like
the other men in the line-up:
"I could have identified him if he'd been nekkid."
I think you've been reading too many CTer accounts of this crime. Read
Dale Myers' book ("With Malice") instead; it's not filled with
distortions and murky CT junk.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/1bdb7e56f0427853
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/bc0806c87efe1c03
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CTer -- There seems to be plenty of reliable evidence that it wasn't
Oswald who killed Tippit.
DVP -- You must be kidding! There's almost NO exculpatory evidence in
Oswald's favor with respect to the J.D. Tippit murder (which is
incredible if LHO had actually been innocent of the murder).
About the only thing in Oswald's favor is witness Acquilla Clemmons,
who said she saw two men running in opposite directions from the
murder scene. But, remember, she did NOT see the actual shooting.
I'm fairly convinced she saw Ted Callaway running off with Tippit's
gun after the shooting occurred. Callaway then ran off with fellow
witness William Scoggins in Scoggins' cab as they went to search for
Tippit's killer.
I'm surprised more people haven't made a big deal out of Callaway's
story...which is an amazing tale to say the least. Ted was a real
hero, of sorts, in my book. First, he gets a really good look at
Oswald as Lee escaped the scene of the crime, with his gun in "the
raised pistol position" (and even talks to Oswald briefly).
Callaway then dashes to Tippit's side and contacts the police on
Tippit's car radio; and then Mr. Callaway takes the gun off of Officer
Tippit's dead body (after he rolled the murdered policeman over to one
side to get to the gun, which Tippit was lying on) and gets Scoggins
to drive him around the area hunting the killer. Incredible take-
charge action. (Ted also helped load Tippit into the ambulance as
well.)
It's just too bad Callaway didn't find Oswald lurking in an alley
somewhere; he then could have brought LHO back to 10th Street at
gunpoint (using the gun belonging to the man Oswald had just killed;
THAT would have been ideal justice, huh?) and into the waiting arms of
the Dallas Police. Mr. Callaway would really have been crowned a hero
if that had occurred.
Anyway, the evidence of Oswald's guilt in J.D. Tippit's murder is
irrevocable and undeniable. And that's a "Mark VII".
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CTer -- When JFK is shot in the head, why does his wife suddenly move
to the back of the car like she's trying to get out? I never
understood why she did that.
DVP -- My spouse's head just exploded two inches in front of my face
and his bloody body is now falling toward me. What would be the
natural reflex action that most people would take at that very
moment?.....
1.) Stay calm, cool, and firmly rooted in my seat and catch the bloody
head?
--Or:--
2.) Get the heck out of the way of the bloody mess?
Is there anybody on Earth who thinks they'd really have the
wherewithal to choose #1? If so, you're made out of solid steel.
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Re.: "The Umbrella Man".....
DVP -- And don't forget the THIRD thing that Mr. Umbrella Man was
apparently being used for (in the fertile minds of certain
conspiracists anyway) -- he was giving JFK a "signal" or "sign" that
he was about to fall victim to a shooting.
"TUM" had "DCM" next to him (aka: "Dark Complected Man" for those who
aren't familiar with all of the Conspiracy Acronyms)....and DCM was
waving at JFK as can be seen in the films and photos.
Some conspiracy-happy kooks think TUM and DCM were working together as
part of a covert assassination team of Dealey Plaza plotters....and,
right out there in plain view of hundreds of people and multiple
active cameras, these two brain-dead plotters evidently were waving
umbrellas and waving their arms at JFK in order to let Kennedy know
just WHO it was that was about to kill him (Cuban refugees who were
upset at Kennedy over the lack of air cover at the 1961 Bay Of Pigs
fiasco).
So, as can be seen, the CT-Kooks will simply run from one Umbrella Man
theory to the next. If they don't like the "Poisoned Dart" theory,
they've always got multiple other TUM scenarios they can fall back on.
But, by God, the CTers somehow KNOW that Mr. Umbrella Dude was part of
the plot in some fashion, so they'll MAKE him part of the plot, even
if it means having to look like a total moron to get that job
accomplished -- such as the "poisoned dart" stuff. That one, I'll
admit, is one of my all-time favorites!
Imagine the logic (or illogic) of it, if you will -- The plotters
place one of their assassins on Elm Street in plain sight of hundreds
of witnesses, including the heavily-armed Secret Service agents (who
are FACING "TUM" as he fires his dart). And remember, TUM is there not
really to KILL the slow-moving target of John Kennedy. No. He's only
there to "wound" and "paralyze" Mr. Kennedy.
But TUM's task is greatly hindered by a clumsy umbrella weapon and the
fact that he's got to shoot through a crowded limo and make sure his
aim is perfect, or else maybe he'll "paralyze" Jackie or Nellie
instead....and that wouldn't be a good thing for the plotters to have
happen....unless you live in CT-Land, where the after-the-fact cover-
up agents can smooth over ANY amount of evidence to make sure your
"Lone Patsy" plot succeeds as planned.
And, naturally, Mr. Umbrella's flechette shot could easily WARN the SS
men that something's amiss, thereby making the "Kill Shot" from "Badge
Man" more difficult, because perhaps the SS will get JFK out of there
faster. Or Jackie might pull him completely out of sight even.
I guess the assassins just wanted to play fair and give the President
a fighting chance to escape the kill shot by firing needless "darts"
at the target, when they could have just as easily fired the fatal
blow from the get-go. I had no idea that professional contract killers
for the Mob were so obliging. Go figure.
"Badge Man", by the way, has to wait until JFK emerges from behind
that retaining wall on the Grassy Knoll, because the stupid pre-
planners of this inane plot evidently never bothered to check to see
whether or not this Knoll position would even be a good one for doing
the job at hand....not to mention Mr. BM having to fire through
multiple witnesses who might hinder his high-powered blast.
But no worries here, because they've got HUNDREDS of cover-up
operatives waiting in the wings to "control" the ensuing investigation
from every possible (kooky) angle.
Comedian Don Rickles could probably make millions by taking some of
this conspiracy-flavored junk on the road as part of his nightclub
act. :)
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/badgeman_3.htm
David Von Pein
Translation: LHO acted on his own on November 22. Ms. Davison firmly
believes that's the case, and dishes up ample reasons in her 1983 book
("Oswald's Game") why the LN scenario is almost certainly true.
Oswald was merely thumping his own chest in the summer of '63 in New
Orleans. He had ONE whopping member of his FPCC "chapter" -- LHO
himself, and that's it. He lied to Bill Stuckey and Ed Butler, et al,
on his radio interviews in August '63 when he said he couldn't
"reveal" even the NUMBER of members in his FPCC "chapter".
[Listen to both of Lee Oswald's 1963 New Orleans radio interviews by
clicking the links below; fascinating stuff too.....]
http://www.geocities.com/jfkdocs
INTERVIEW WITH LEE OSWALD (WDSU-RADIO; 08/17/63):
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/audio/oswald1.rm
OSWALD RADIO DEBATE (WDSU-RADIO; 08/21/63):
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/audio/oswald2_1.rm
In short -- Lee Harvey Oswald was a kook. Plain and simple. A first-
rate, bona fide kook. And he killed President John F. Kennedy, by
himself, when he was afforded the perfect opportunity on November 22,
1963.
Knowing Oswald (and his pro-Cuba, pro-Castro leanings; plus the fact
we know for an absolute fact he had murder in his veins, via the
attempt on General Edwin Walker's life 7 months earlier), it would
probably have been criminal (from Oswald's POV) to have allowed such a
golden opportunity to pass him by when the President of the country he
hated conveniently drove right by the Texas School Book Depository at
11 MPH.
How often does a chance like that drive by your workplace doorstep (in
an open-top convertible, no less)? It's almost as if Oswald was daring
HIMSELF to take those shots at the President.
It's just a damn shame Marina was so cold to Lee on Thursday night. If
she hadn't been, things might very well have been different on Friday.
BOOK REVIEW ("Oswald's Game"):
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/9c2238388f0a72c3
tomnln
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1189491848.6...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...