Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 8)
David Von Pein
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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From July 2005 and March
2007.
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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- There was blood spray in all
directions from the two head shots, but most prominently to the left
rear from the grassy knoll shot.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- LOL! You think the "most prominent" amount of
debris seen on the Zapruder Film is to the "left rear" of President
Kennedy's head?? The film supports no such conclusion. Your argument
here is utter folly. In fact, the exact opposite is true. .....
http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/images/Headshot-large.gif
John and Nellie Connally, sitting in front of JFK, were splattered
with gobs of debris, which is perfectly consistent with the scenario
of a gunman firing the head shot from behind the President.
Tell me: Where is this "prominent" amount of debris being blown out
the BACK of JFK's head on the Zapruder Film?
Answer: It ain't there, because it does not exist. If debris was being
expelled fairly equally from two simultaneous head shots, there is no
way we'd see ONLY the huge cloud of debris to the FRONT of the
President's head, with NOTHING being expelled at the rear of the head.
It's rather amazing that some conspiracy quacks can look at the same
film as LNers and see the exact OPPOSITE of what really is occurring
in said film....like this "blood spray" example.
There's not a HINT of blood being thrown out the rear of JFK's head on
the Z-Film, and yet the CTer I just quoted above thinks (or so he
says) that MOST of the blood and brain is seen at the rear of the head
right after the fatal gunshot.
~throws hands in air in utter dismay~
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/zaplow.gif
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CTer -- I guess you know that motorcycle officer {Bobby} Hargis was
covered with brain and blood spray, and that Hargis was riding to the
back and left of the limousine, hence in the trajectory of the grassy
knoll shot. How do you explain that Mr. Von Pein?
DVP -- It's quite obvious. The motorcyclists DROVE INTO the blood
cloud. The largest "cloud" of matter definitely is expelled FORWARD of
JFK, and coupled with the stiff breeze blowing from (approx.) north to
south, Officers Hargis and Martin being hit by debris makes perfect
sense within the context of a rear-head-shot scenario.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/film/Zapruderstable.mov
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CTer -- All the time Oswald thought he was a hero for trying to
prevent the assassination. Do you understand this scenario, Mr. Von
Pein?
DVP -- Sure. And it's the second-biggest crock of conspiracy crap I've
ever heard -- with #1 (by far) being: The nonsensical "Patsy Plot"
that these conspirators supposedly arranged well in advance of
11/22/63.
Per the very-widely-accepted CT philosophy, these professional
assassins/plotters supposedly used "Fake Oswalds" all over the place
to implicate only Oswald -- and they "faked" multiple photos of Oswald
to implicate ONLY him -- and then what do these astute plotters do on
game day (November 22)?.....
Instead of utilizing a semi-realistic scheme of just one LHO look-
alike firing from the place where the real Oswald was supposed to be
firing from (the SN window in the TSBD), the architects of this Patsy
Plot seal the failure of their pre-arranged scheme by insisting (per
CT accounts) that MANY DIFFERENT GUNMEN fire upon the target,
including killers located to the FRONT of the target, the precise
OPPOSITE direction from their Patsy's location!
How can anyone not laugh out loud at such idiocy?
And now we have a conspiracist (via the hilariously-absurd comment
quoted above) who wants the world to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald
not only was innocent of shooting JFK -- but this CTer goes one step
further into the Twilight Zone of Conspiracyville by implying that
Oswald was really trying to "prevent the assassination" and, hence,
save JFK from his ultimate fate in Dallas!
It makes me wonder just exactly how deep into the fantasy world of
make-believe "JFK Conspiracy Land" some people are willing to dive.
Pretty deep, it would seem, by the looks of that quoted CTer passage
above. It's absolutely incredible....and downright insulting to the
memory of both John F. Kennedy and Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/30f318ea48653a72
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CTer -- Did you know that Oswald actually liked Kennedy?
DVP -- That's never really been proven; although I also lean toward
that conclusion of Oswald NOT hating Kennedy.
But it's immaterial when weighed against the physical and
circumstantial evidence that says Oswald committed the crime (plus the
Tippit murder to boot).
It's not necessary whatsoever to establish motive. Who knows what
inner motives were driving that screwball named Lee Harvey. Whether he
"liked" Kennedy or not isn't really important. He saw an OPPORTUNITY
(a golden one at that) to strike back at the country/society he DID
HATE.
Oswald saw a perfect chance to cut down -- as my main dude Vince
Bugliosi said at the 1986 LHO Docu-Trial -- "the quintessential
representative of a society for which he had a grinding contempt".
What better way to strike back at a country you despise than by
killing its #1 leader (whether you "liked" him personally or not)?
Lee Harvey Oswald did just that.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/66803e710380d800
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CTer -- They did give him {LHO} a ride away {from the scene of the
crime}. Oswald was picked up from Dealey Plaza 10 minutes after the
assassination in a Rambler station wagon.
DVP -- Then would you care to explain WHY Oswald (minutes after
getting into this Rambler) then gets on a bus and is positively
identified by a woman WHO KNEW HIM ON SIGHT? Kind of odd, wouldn't you
say (if his "Rambler" co-plotter had already picked him up in front of
the Book Depository)?
The "Rambler" theory is downright silly and laughable, in light of
what we KNOW Oswald did just minutes AFTER the supposed Rambler
incident. Most CT-Kooks don't even buy the stupid Rambler theory. And
if the rabid CTers don't buy it, good gosh, it must be a crazy theory.
Because they'll believe pert-near anything (as long as they can take
the noose from around double-murderer Lee Oswald's neck, that is).
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CTer -- The evidence is clear that the body {of the dead John F.
Kennedy} was seized and tampered with.
DVP -- Some nice moody music by Bernard Herrmann might help your "body-
altering" nonsense here.
There is no possible way the body of President Kennedy could have been
altered prior to his autopsy on 11/22/63. It did not happen. I'd
sooner believe the moon is made out of papier-mache.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0de08844600b8c7a
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CTer -- Good to see you confirm that the backyard photos are indeed
fake.
DVP -- I never admitted any such thing and you know it. And WHY on
Earth would my obvious CT-bashing prior comment stating: "Why would
conspirators feel the need to FAKE and "plant" THREE different
"Backyard Photos" depicting Oswald prior to the assassination, when
zero were really needed?" .... possibly lead you to think that I
believe said photos are fakes. The prior comment obviously indicates
I'm berating the silly idea of fakery in this regard.
And, too, the question IS a valid one -- There would be NO reason to
fake ANY pictures, let alone three or four. That just increases the
chance that any such "fakes" will be discovered. Why wouldn't just one
have sufficed? You, obviously, cannot answer that. Because there would
be NO REASON, under even conspiratorial circumstances, to have faked
multiple photos depicting the EXACT SAME THING.
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CTer -- There is indeed zero evidence to link Oswald to the rifle.
There is also no evidence to link the bullets and shells of the Tippit
murder to Oswald's revolver.
DVP -- You're high as a kite if you believe these two things. Oswald
is tied up 85 ways to Sunday with BOTH the rifle and the revolver (and
shells at the Tippit scene), and you know it.
You just want to deny the shells can be linked to Oswald's gun. And
you're wrong. ALL FOUR shells matched Oswald's gun; with two of them
not going through Officer J.M. Poe's hands either, meaning those two
have a clear and distinct chain of evidence without doubt. (The Poe
shells do as well; but CTers want to muddy the waters via the "Poe
Didn't Mark Them Properly" dodge. But Detective James R. Leavelle
knows they were never marked, because there was no need to mark them.
The evidence bag containing the shells were marked however.)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/690b39c792300131
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CTer -- The HSCA concluded that JFK was murdered as a result of a
conspiracy. Why do you never mention that?
DVP -- Because it was based on the acoustics evidence and NOTHING ELSE
BUT THAT. And that evidence is so full of holes it'll never hold an
ounce of H2O -- and anyone who has studied the case should know it.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/barber.htm
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CTer -- Oswald did NOT kill Tippit. A CIA agent of David Atlee Phllips
killed Tippit.
DVP -- You need to see a doctor if you buy that. Given the evidence
that exists, nobody except Oswald could possibly have killed Officer
Tippit.
Witnesses all over the place who pointed to Oswald as Tippit's killer
(witnesses you choose not to believe) -- his gun matched the shells
that he HIMSELF was seen physically dumping from the gun -- and that
same gun was in his possession when the murdering S.O.B. was arrested
inside the Texas Theater (attempting to kill yet another policeman
with it).
Conspiracy buffs who insist upon making Lee Harvey Oswald an innocent
"patsy" in the Tippit murder too shouldn't really be examining this
case at all....because such a kook obviously doesn't know his hands
from his feet.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4d1790303e6fcc19
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CTer -- There is more evidence for the curtain rods, as Oswald said
this himself.
DVP -- And, naturally, without reservation, we should believe anything
uttered by the person who was just arrested for two first-degree
murders, right?
Like when he also said he never owned a rifle, right? Or his little 4-
word "I'm just a patsy" gem that came on the heels of a provable lie.
No four words in history have been blown up so far out of proportion
and context than Oswald's "I'm just a patsy" declaration.
I often wonder if all the hubbub about "Patsy-ism" would even have
surfaced if dear sweet Lee had never bellowed his famous four-word
mantra? After all, Oswald wouldn't lie....now would he? He's too good
a man to do something like that. After all, he was trying to SAVE John
F. Kennedy from the real murderers, wasn't he?
~ROFL~
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7a460183ae4c6c41
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/beb8390c3526124d
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CTer -- The bullet that entered JFK's throat was lodged in it.
Zapruder frames 225-237 show Kennedy pulling his tie away with his
left hand and cupping his right hand over his mouth. He then moves his
head FORWARD, a normal reaction when one is trying to dislodge
something caught in the throat from a seated position.
DVP -- If JFK was trying to "cough up" a bullet, then why doesn't he
CONTINUE to try to cough the damn thing up in the later Z-Film frames?
He supposedly only cared about coughing up the bullet in those few
selected Z-Frames? But in the later frames, there's no "lunging" or
"gagging" or "coughing" motions. Why?
Do you think Kennedy DID cough up the actual missile (and the bullet
never was found somehow)?
If JFK still had that bullet lodged in his throat at Parkland....why
do we see the very short "cough then stop" action of JFK (per your CT
interpretation)?
In short....the "coughing up a bullet" theory is pure crap...without a
scrap of hard evidence to support it. No bullet. No damage inside
Kennedy's throat that would account for a rifle bullet just stopping
in his throat and not continuing its flight path.
And:
No gunman located in any location where such a frontal throat shot
could possibly have come from. How could "Badge Man" have caused this
wound? Or was "TUM" responsible with his rain-shielding device?
Plus, I always thought most CTers (including the likes of Oliver Stone
and Jim Garrison in the movie "JFK") thought that Kennedy's "lunge"
forward was due to a separate bullet hitting him in the BACK...thus,
it wasn't associated with the "cough" or the frontal shot in the
throat.
So many theories...so few facts in any of them.
One "cough"...and then nothing. Yeah, let's go with that theory (until
the next one shows up anyway):
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/film/Zapruderstable.mov
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/6fca7f22927c03bc
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b29aa38d38a6961f
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CTer -- The original plan was to eliminate Oswald much sooner. That
part was screwed up. Hence they {aka, THE MANY TOTALLY-MADE-UP-OUT-OF-
WHOLE-CLOTH CONSPIRATORS/ASSASSINS/SHOOTERS/HENCHMEN/BAD GUYS} had to
improvise with Ruby to finish the job.
DVP -- Are you looking into your "Conspiracy Crystal Ball" again? You
must be. Because this junk is nothing but utter CT guesswork, without
a shred of proof to validate such malarkey.
And -- What was so HARD about having Ruby (or whoever) just simply
wait for Oswald about a block from the Depository after LHO made his
escape from the building, and then fill him with lead before he got
himself arrested and had ANY chance to spill any beans about anything?
Or: Shoot him dead RIGHT ON THE SIXTH FLOOR. That's an even better
plan. "Stage" LHO's own suicide. Why didn't your crack plotters do
that?
Screwed up, you claim? Yeah, I'd say so. Your plotters were pretty
amateur it would appear. Especially the idea of using gobs of
different shooters to frame the ONE LONE PATSY! Can you just hear the
"Grand Poobah Of Assassination Plots", on November 21, 1963,
explaining to his cohorts how it'll work:
"It'll work out okay, guys; you'll see -- all we need to do is to
alter JFK's 10 potential head wounds before he gets to the hospital,
so nobody can see the frontal-shot stuff! And then all we need to do
is gather up the TEN bullets from the bodies and the car and from
Dealey Plaza and hide them somewhere before any non-plotters see any
of 'em! And then all we need to do after that is to gather up all the
many photos and films that bystanders will no doubt be taking during
the parade, and then alter all of those to eliminate all of the
frontal hits to JFK. That shouldn't be too difficult, right? It'll be
a piece of cake, guys! You'll see! Trust me!"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/747e6695f071ec3f
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CTer -- If Ruby had not been able to do it {kill LHO}, Oswald would
have talked and proven his innocence.
DVP -- LOL! And just exactly WHY didn't he use those 46 hours between
1:50 PM on November 22 and 11:21 AM on November 24 to talk and "prove
his innocence", and spill any necessary beans about "the plot" that
swirled all around him?
You think he "would have talked" and "proven his innocence" -- but
ONLY after a certain number of hours in custody?
He was just playing along with the cops and the FBI during his 46
hours in custody, by NOT SAYING A SINGLE WORD ABOUT ANY "PLOT" HE HAD
KNOWLEDGE OF?
That's a hot one!