JFK Assassination Forum Archives -- Misc. Topics Of Interest (Part 140)

Taking JFK's body out of Dallas and back to Washington wasn't the
slightest bit sinister. Nor was it really even very surprising under
the circumstances.

Plus: It was really Jacqueline Kennedy who was the primary reason for
the Secret Service bulldozing JFK's casket out of Parkland Hospital.
(Plus Ken O'Donnell and Larry O'Brien, don't forget--and those guys
were JFK's aides and very close friends, so they certainly weren't
part of some "plot" to steal the President's body and fly it to some
kind of Conspiracy BatCave at Walter Reed in order to have covert
head-altering surgery performed.)

JACKIE was the MAIN REASON for why the body was bulldozed out of
Parkland and back to Washington the way it was. And that's because
Jackie refused to leave her husband's side. And, for some reason,
O'Donnell, O'Brien, et al, felt they had to get Jackie out of Dallas
asap. And since Jackie wouldn't budge without JFK by her side--then
JFK had to go too.

Nothing sinister there whatsoever. And whether or not it was
technically illegal and against Texas law is not a major point at all.
The main question to ask regarding the removal of the President's body
on 11/22/63 is this one: WAS PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S BODY TAKEN OUT OF
DALLAS AS PART OF A CONSPIRACY AND/OR COVER-UP?

And the obvious answer to that question is: No.

Or do some conspiracy theorists want to accuse Kenneth O'Donnell,
Lawrence O'Brien, the Secret Service, and Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy
of being part of a plot and/or cover-up?

====================================================

"[Jackie Kennedy's] response to me was she would not leave her
husband's body. At that point, I realized that she would not. The
doctor had continually attempted to get her to take some form of
sedation. And she had consistently refused, and told me she would not
take anything, that she was going to stay with her husband. I realized
that she was going to stay with her husband, no matter what anybody
did, and there was no possible way of in any way getting her to leave.
And so, therefore, the only alternative I could see was that we move
the President. It is an assumption I probably would have arrived at
anyway, but I arrived at it in this manner."

-- Kenneth P. O'Donnell; May 18, 1964; Via his Warren Commission
testimony [7 H 452]

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0230b.htm

====================================================

"2:04 p.m. [CST] --- By the time the president's body is ready
to be moved from Parkland Hospital, the row over the state of Texas's
jurisdiction over the body has turned into a major imbroglio. Medical
examiner Dr. Earl Rose refuses to listen to the pleading of Dr. Kemp
Clark, the head of neurosurgery, who sides with the presidential
party, or to the advice of Dallas district attorney Henry Wade, who
advised him by phone to give it up.

"Tempers are at the melting point. Kennedy's men have had about
all of Dallas law they can stand. Rose sees the casket bearing the
president's body being pushed out of Trauma Room One, Mrs. Kennedy at
its side. The medical examiner blocks the way with his own body, his
hand flying up like a traffic cop. "We are removing it," Admiral
Burkley says, enraged. "This is the president of the United States and
there should be some consideration in an event like this."

""We can't release anything!" Rose screams. "A violent death
requires a postmortem! There's a law here. We're going to enforce it."

"A crush of forty sweating men are clustered around the wide
doorway as curses fly back and forth. One of them looks like he might
belt the medical examiner at any moment. Admiral Burkley, in an
attempt to calm everyone down, informs the conclave that a justice of
the peace has arrived and has the power to overrule the medical
examiner.

"Theron Ward, a young justice of the peace for the Third
Precinct of Dallas County, makes his way down the corridor. Too timid
to buck the medical examiner, the young justice tells them there is
nothing he can do.

""In a homicide case, it's my duty to order an autopsy," Ward
says in a tone much too weak for Dr. Rose's pleasure. "It shouldn't
take more than three hours."

"Special Agent Kellerman tells Ward there must be something
inside of him that tells him it wouldn't be right to put Mrs. Kennedy
and all of the president's people through any further agony in Texas,
but Ward can only say, "I can't help you out."

"Ken O'Donnell pleads with him, "Can't you make an exception for
President Kennedy?"

"Incredibly, Ward tells him, "It's just another homicide case as
far as I'm concerned."

"O'Donnell's response is instantaneous. "Go fuck yourself," he
yells. "We're leaving!"

"A policeman next to Rose points to the medical examiner and the
justice of the peace and says to the president's men, "These two guys
say you can't go."

""Move aside," shouts Larry O'Brien, moving toward the officer.
"Get the hell out of the way," O'Donnell hollers. "We're not staying
here three hours or three minutes. We're leaving now! Wheel it out!"
he orders.

"The Secret Service men shoulder their way into the patrolman,
who wisely capitulates. Rose, overpowered by circumstance, steps out
of the way as the casket is wheeled toward the emergency exit, Mrs.
Kennedy hurrying alongside, her fingertips touching the bronze finish.

"As they move out toward the waiting hearse, Justice Theron Ward
dashes to the nurses station and telephones District Attorney Wade and
is stunned to hear him say the same thing he told Earl Rose earlier--
he has no objection whatsoever to the removal of the president's
body."

-- Pages 110-111 of "Reclaiming History: The Assassination Of
President John F. Kennedy" (c.2007 by Vincent Bugliosi)

http://ReclaimingHistory.blogspot.com

aeffects

unread,

May 23, 2010, 12:05:34 AM5/23/10

to

On May 22, 6:46 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:

btw David, the chicken if burning.... get busy troll!

Message has been deleted

David Von Pein

unread,

May 23, 2010, 10:45:26 PM5/23/10

to

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/0f628ccafd1b7205/0bd65b7f17bd39a5?#0bd65b7f17bd39a5

>>> "To claim NO bullet will deform traveling under 1400fps and tumbling is absurd." <<<

So you're saying ballistics expert Larry Sturdivan just MADE UP the
figures in his book re: WCC/MC ammunition?

Yes, I suppose that is POSSIBLE, but I'm not quite sure why I should
believe his data is totally wrong.

BTW, I was wrong when I said "NO BULLET CAN DEFORM" earlier. I deleted
that post (in case no one noticed), and revised the post to read "NO
MANNLICHER-CARCANO BULLET CAN DEFORM [below 1400fps if it's tumbling,
i.e., going "sideways"]".

But that revision is still inaccurate, I will admit. (Yes, Marsh was
correct again. Yikes!)

I should have said: "NO MC/WCC bullet can deform..." [per Sturdivan's
data].

I'll admit, I've always thought Larry Sturdivan's numbers were a bit
odd too, particularly his data about CE399 striking Connally's wrist
at only 500fps. Seems mighty slow to me. But, then too, I'm not a
"ballistics expert". Larry M. Sturdivan is.

And the words that appear on page 246 of Sturdivan's book, "The JFK
Myths", are worth the price I paid for the book all by themselves.

http://Amazon.com/review/R6EGCI0WHHGAD

http://Amazon.com/review/R18TZAE7HNDLPI

David Von Pein

unread,

May 23, 2010, 11:33:29 PM5/23/10

to

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/ab4cb89f3e2a36e7

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/e759bcf136db1496

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

>>> "Lattimer's many tests with MC/WCC ammunition indicate that NO MC/WCC BULLET will tumble unless it hit something first." <<<

HERBERT BLENNER SAID:

>>> "Elongation of a wound is not evidence of a strike by a tumbling or a bullet with yaw. Lattimer's tests show that a bullet with yaw of about 90 degree makes an elongated hole whose shape resembles a rectangular with rounded corners." <<<

DVP NOW SAYS [QUOTING DR. JOHN LATTIMER]:

"An oval hole in our simulated back of Connally was caused by
our test bullet that had first passed through a simulation of
Kennedy's neck, causing that bullet to wobble and start to tumble end
over end. Connally's wound of entry was elongated, like the one in the
center of [the test] target. The punctate round hole, with black
margins, of the type that always occurred when our test bullets struck
the Connally target without hitting something else first, can be seen
to the right of Connally's outline in the photograph [via Figure 106
on Page 265 of "Kennedy & Lincoln"]. These bullets never wobbled or
tumbled spontaneously; they were stable in their flight to the target
UNLESS THEY HIT SOMETHING ELSE FIRST [DVP's emphasis], such as
Kennedy's neck, whereupon they turned almost completely sideways." --
Dr. John K. Lattimer; Page 265 of "Kennedy And Lincoln" (c.1980)

---------------

"Based on the experiments we have done, if the bullet had struck
Governor Connally's back as its first point of impact without
previously passing through President Kennedy, it SURELY would have
shattered Connally's femur and probably would have traversed his leg
completely, in addition to his thorax and wrist. It also would have
made a small punctate wound of entrance on his back rather than the
elongated one it did leave." -- John K. Lattimer; Page 290 of "Kennedy
And Lincoln" (c.1980)

---------------

http://Kennedy-And-Lincoln.blogspot.com

Message has been deleted

aeffects

unread,

May 24, 2010, 12:17:02 AM5/24/10

to

On May 23, 9:14 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:

--moderated--

no advertising, troll.... you know the rules...

Message has been deleted

David Von Pein

unread,

May 24, 2010, 12:57:14 AM5/24/10

to

>>> "The back wound [on Connally] was only elongated to 15 mm, the same as what you think is the Kennedy head entrance wound. So tell us what caused the head shot bullet to start tumbling and cause THAT elongated wound? What did it go through first?" <<<

The bullet that struck the back of JFK's head was certainly not
tumbling when it hit his head, and the entry wound in Kennedy's head
certainly doesn't look "elongated" to me.

Plus: Here's something I hadn't thought about at all before today, for
some strange reason -- When looking at the autopsy photo linked below,
the "15 millimeter" measurement that appears in the autopsy report for
one of the dimensions of the head entry wound doesn't appear to be
even close to being accurate.

However, both the Clark Panel and the HSCA also said the "red spot"
wound was 15x6 millimeters. But it doesn't look nearly that large (the
15 mm. dimension, that is), in either width or height. By just
eyeballing the photo, the width of the wound looks to be roughly the
same as the height:

http://Reclaiming-History.googlegroups.com/web/011.+JFK+AUTOPSY+PHOTO?gda=WquTaUgAAADki0TPEquQQ1CO_fZqbtsgirEWEKX_Pna-vVjTvB5kvRZ5oknr4PK9NRubH_RFRg6DH7k_HBP_EtyS7XaNp0ALGjVgdwNi-BwrUzBGT2hOzg&gsc=Svuy_QsAAACs54w70XOUBEVOZzDMwd3R

~shrug~

Message has been deleted

aeffects

unread,

May 24, 2010, 12:21:25 PM5/24/10

to

On May 24, 9:07 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:

no advertising moron.....

David Von Pein

unread,

May 24, 2010, 12:34:20 PM5/24/10

to

>>> "You still have it wrong; tumbling does not mean going sideways." <<<

Addendum:

Larry M. Sturdivan does specify the word "sideways" (not "tumbling")
on page 118 of "The JFK Myths", with respect to the velocity of WCC/MC
bullets and whether or not they will deform at certain speeds. He says
that below 1400fps a "Sideways" WCC/MC bullet will definitely not
suffer any deformation after the bullet has struck bone.

As far as only partially-yawed WCC/MC bullets go--beats me. Sturdivan
doesn't give that data on pg. 118. I assume he means yawing or
tumbling bullets in general. But maybe he does strictly mean only
"sideways", not partially tipped.

Anyway, we all know CE399 struck both JFK & JBC. Any other solution
belongs in the funny papers -- especially the scenario that has
somebody planting a bullet (any bullet) on a stretcher (any stretcher)
at Parkland.

lazu...@webtv.net

unread,

May 24, 2010, 2:56:23 PM5/24/10

to

Von Pein thinks if he can make 5 posts instead of one... he will win
every argument...hint- the lone nut story has been kaput since 1966
(Mark Lane Rush to Judgement)...we don't need some knuckleheads trying
to ressucitate the bloated fat man corpse again...Laz

Herbert Blenner

unread,

May 24, 2010, 5:44:15 PM5/24/10

to

On May 23, 11:33 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/ab4cb89f3e2a...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/e759bcf136db...

>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> >>> "Lattimer's many tests with MC/WCC ammunition indicate that NO MC/WCC BULLET will tumble unless it hit something first." <<<
>
> HERBERT BLENNER SAID:
>
> >>> "Elongation of a wound is not evidence of a strike by a tumbling or a bullet with yaw. Lattimer's tests show that a bullet with yaw of about 90 degree makes an elongated hole whose shape resembles a rectangular with rounded corners." <<<
>
> DVP NOW SAYS [QUOTING DR. JOHN LATTIMER]:
>
> "An oval hole in our simulated back of Connally was caused by
> our test bullet that had first passed through a simulation of
> Kennedy's neck, causing that bullet to wobble and start to tumble end
> over end. Connally's wound of entry was elongated, like the one in the
> center of [the test] target. The punctate round hole, with black
> margins, of the type that always occurred when our test bullets struck
> the Connally target without hitting something else first, can be seen
> to the right of Connally's outline in the photograph [via Figure 106
> on Page 265 of "Kennedy & Lincoln"]. These bullets never wobbled or
> tumbled spontaneously; they were stable in their flight to the target
> UNLESS THEY HIT SOMETHING ELSE FIRST [DVP's emphasis], such as
> Kennedy's neck, whereupon they turned almost completely sideways." --
> Dr. John K. Lattimer; Page 265 of "Kennedy And Lincoln" (c.1980)
>
> ---------------

Your quote of Dr. John Lattimer proves that he was selling a lie. A
bullet that strikes when "turned almost completely sidewards" makes a
rectangular hole with rounded corners as seen in the figure published
by Lattimer.

http://mysite.verizon.net/a1eah71/temps/tumbling.jpg

So David, are you going to tell us that the above graphic shows oval
holes in the targets?

Analysts recognize that an oval/elliptical hole arises from a
tangential strike by a bullet with negligible yaw angle. In fact they
calculate the entry or incidence angle of the bullet from the
dimensions of the ellipse.

http://mysite.verizon.net/a1eah71/temps/holegeometry.jpg

Herbert

Herbert Blenner

unread,

May 24, 2010, 5:45:34 PM5/24/10

to

On May 24, 12:34 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>> "You still have it wrong; tumbling does not mean going sideways." <<<
>
> Addendum:
>
> Larry M. Sturdivan does specify the word "sideways" (not "tumbling")
> on page 118 of "The JFK Myths", with respect to the velocity of WCC/MC
> bullets and whether or not they will deform at certain speeds. He says
> that below 1400fps a "Sideways" WCC/MC bullet will definitely not
> suffer any deformation after the bullet has struck bone.

In his HSCA testimony, Sturdivan said that 1400 fps was the
deformation threshold for a nose on strike upon bone and for a
sideways strike the limit was around 1000 fps.

>
> As far as only partially-yawed WCC/MC bullets go--beats me. Sturdivan
> doesn't give that data on pg. 118. I assume he means yawing or
> tumbling bullets in general. But maybe he does strictly mean only
> "sideways", not partially tipped.

A partially-yawed bullet refers to a state of being whereas yawing or
tumbling refer to states of changes.

Herbert

Herbert Blenner

unread,

May 24, 2010, 9:10:47 PM5/24/10

to

On May 24, 12:57 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>> "The back wound [on Connally] was only elongated to 15 mm, the same as what you think is the Kennedy head entrance wound. So tell us what caused the head shot bullet to start tumbling and cause THAT elongated wound? What did it go through first?" <<<
>
> The bullet that struck the back of JFK's head was certainly not
> tumbling when it hit his head, and the entry wound in Kennedy's head
> certainly doesn't look "elongated" to me.
>
> Plus: Here's something I hadn't thought about at all before today, for
> some strange reason -- When looking at the autopsy photo linked below,
> the "15 millimeter" measurement that appears in the autopsy report for
> one of the dimensions of the head entry wound doesn't appear to be
> even close to being accurate.
>
> However, both the Clark Panel and the HSCA also said the "red spot"
> wound was 15x6 millimeters. But it doesn't look nearly that large (the
> 15 mm. dimension, that is), in either width or height. By just
> eyeballing the photo, the width of the wound looks to be roughly the
> same as the height:

David, you are a fountain of misinformation.

The FPP of the HSCA measured the "red spot" as 9 mm by 15-20 mm. They
reported the autopsy measurements of 6 mm by 15 mm but did not
distinguish the bullet hole from the surrounding abrasion.

I wonder whether Lattimer or a failing memory is your source?

Herbert

>
> http://Reclaiming-History.googlegroups.com/web/011.+JFK+AUTOPSY+PHOTO...
>
> ~shrug~

Message has been deleted

David Von Pein

unread,

May 25, 2010, 4:08:30 AM5/25/10

to

>>> "The FPP of the HSCA measured the "red spot" as 9 mm by 15-20 mm." <<<

You need to listen to this then:

http://maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/37/HSCA_Finck_312_S1B.mp3

Message has been deleted

Herbert Blenner

unread,

May 25, 2010, 4:48:37 AM5/25/10

to

Finck did not speak for the FPP.

You need to read this:

"This defect is partially covered by hair and dried blood. This wound
is located considerably above the occipital protuberance, slightly to
the right of the midline, and approximately 13 centimeters above the
most prominent neck crease. It has a maximum vertical diameter in the
photograph of approximately 1.5 to 2 centimeters, and a maximum
transverse diameter of approximately 0.9 centimeter."

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0057a.htm

David Von Pein

unread,

May 25, 2010, 5:19:49 AM5/25/10

to

>>> "Finck did not speak for the FPP." <<<

~sigh~

Of course he didn't, Mr. Thick.

I was talking about BADEN'S comments in this 3/12/78 interview with
Finck, where Dr. Baden says that "15x6" is the exact measurement of
the red spot:

http://maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/37/HSCA_Finck_312_S1B.mp3

David Von Pein

unread,

May 25, 2010, 3:35:26 PM5/25/10

to

http://www.JFKAssassinationForum.com/index.php/topic,2546.msg47391.html#msg47391

>>> "If everything the government attempted to do was done as poorly as the WC..." <<<

I totally disagree with Paul May's above assessment of the Warren
Commission.

Except for the very stupid decision to not view and thoroughly examine
the autopsy photos and X-rays, I think the Warren Commission did a
heck of a good job under fairly difficult and trying circumstances
(and in a relatively short period of time).

The depth of the investigation was truly amazing, IMO, as evidenced by
the more than 25,000 pages of material that we all can currently
peruse at our leisure (thanks to websites like Mary Ferrell's and
History Matters).

Yes, a lot of those pages don't mean a lot in the long run, and many
of those witnesses are useless when it comes to answering the big-
ticket questions the WC was tasked to answer, but the sheer volume of
information collected by the Commission is staggering. To this day,
I'm finding "new" stuff in the WC volumes and the "CDs" (Commission
Documents) that I never knew was there previously.

For example, just the other day (via a post by a person at another
forum) I discovered CD #87 (below), which includes a photo of the
SECOND death certificate in the JFK case. I didn't even know there was
a 2nd death certificate. It's the "Dallas" certificate, signed by
Justice Theran Ward on 12/6/63. The one signed by Dr. Burkley on Nov.
23 is the "White House" death certificate, and I guess it is the one
referred to as the "official" certificate of JFK's death.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10490&relPageId=1041

And then there was the "Dr. Pepper" surprise in 2007, when I first
found CD496 (Photo 7) at the fabulous Ferrell site, confirming the
existence of a second soft-drink machine in the Book Depository:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=12

So many pages....so little time. ;)

Anyway, IMO, the Warren Commission did a superb job. And it makes me
angry when I hear conspiracy theorists continually treating the people
who served on Earl Warren's commission as, quite literally, criminals
who deserve to be locked behind bars.

Hopefully, each of those WC members and assistants has (or had) a very
thick skin. Otherwise, it must drive them nuts to know that they did a
very good job in 1964 at coming to the RIGHT CONCLUSION about JFK's
murder, only to be treated like felons by approximately 75% of the
Americans they were serving.

http://Amazon.com/review/R224E9J6MWGA8

Message has been deleted

aeffects

unread,

May 25, 2010, 5:24:07 PM5/25/10

to

On May 25, 2:19 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:

no advertising shithead....

David Von Pein

unread,

May 25, 2010, 5:32:08 PM5/25/10

to

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/aea5542d16906628

IN A REVIEW FOR THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL DVD "JFK: 3 SHOTS THAT CHANGED
AMERICA", PAUL MAVIS SAID:

>>> "I particularly like the look of abject terror in Curry's eyes - after his ass has been put in line with the "official story" - when he reports that the FBI, in less than 24 hours, has miraculously traced all of Oswald's gun receipts and paperwork back to Chicago...almost as if they had all that info handy on a man they supposedly weren't aware of until that very day." <<<

DVP SAYS:

Paul Mavis is a very good reviewer. I admire many of his reviews for
TV-on-DVD products. But his comments above about Dallas Police Chief
Jesse Curry and the FBI are not accurate (or fair) at all.

The FBI, while trying to track down the source of Mannlicher-Carcano
#C2766, got lucky on Day 1 (Nov. 22) when the owner of one of the gun
shops they visited in Dallas, said that he got his Italian military
rifles from Crescent Firearms in New York City.

This fact, naturally, led the FBI to Crescent. And Crescent then
provided the info about selling Rifle C2766 to Klein's Sporting Goods
in Chicago. Then it was up to Klein's to find the specific sales order
for C2766 amongst their wealth of microfilm records.

Searching through records in Chicago for six hours, from 10:00 PM
until about 4:00 AM [WR; Page 118], they came up with the "Hidell"
order form and the document that would eventually become "Waldman
Exhibit No. 7" during the Warren Commission hearings, showing that
Rifle C2766 had been sold and shipped to A. Hidell in Dallas, Texas.

http://reclaiming-history.googlegroups.com/web/122cb.+KLEIN%27S+ORDER+FORM+FOR+LEE+HARVEY+OSWALD%27S+RIFLE?gda=2J6R8W0AAADki0TPEquQQ1CO_fZqbtsg6eqk5EyoU5N25wmIJI8SiETNA23sOOYyOeWaTzrBiMeDdbV10H7BMXcyv0amCYeDzr-JL8N4O7CaB4c46L0V8svNMp_TmlPAlOS-83-mixLlNv--OykrTYJH3lVGu2Z5&gsc=Y4EhvAsAAAC3sNGdvedmQdyiECAbUDbS

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0071b.htm

There was nothing mysterious or unusual at all about this chain of
events regarding the paperwork for C2766. Just hard work by regular
people who were helping out the FBI in its initial investigation.

And Chief Curry, who was constantly giving a DPD hallway press
conference on Saturday, November 23rd, let the press know right away
that his department (the DPD) had just got word from the FBI that "the
order letter" for the rifle had been traced to "our suspect--Oswald".

But, I guess some conspiracy theorists think that Klein's (and the
FBI) found that paperwork too quickly. I guess it smells too much like
a pre-arranged "plot" to them.

Well, what's new about that? Everything smells like a plot if you're a
JFK conspiracy theorist. It's pretty much always been that way. But
I'm disappointed to see that Mr. Mavis thinks like a traditional
conspiracist too -- at least sometimes. I thought he'd have more
(common) sense.

http://DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/2009/12/jesse-curry-interviews.html

David Von Pein

unread,

May 26, 2010, 7:16:40 PM5/26/10

to

RE: THE DEATH CERTIFICATES (PLURAL):

I hadn't realized this until today:

There were THREE separate death certificates -- one of them is the
"White House Death Certificate", which was filled out and signed by
JFK's personal physician, Dr. George Burkley, on November 23, 1963
[ARRB Medical Document #6]:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=587&relPageId=1

And there was the first of two different "Dallas" certificates of
death, signed by Dr. Kemp Clark of Parkland Hospital on 11/22/63 [ARRB
MD 42]:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=623

And then there was also a second Dallas death certificate, which was
signed by Dallas Justice of the Peace Theran Ward on December 6, 1963,
two weeks after JFK's assassination [Commission Document #87]:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10490&relPageId=1041

One dead man.
Three death certificates.

David Von Pein

unread,

May 31, 2010, 10:18:17 PM5/31/10

to

http://www.JFKAssassinationForum.com/index.php/topic,2582.msg48207.html#msg48207

>>> "Oswald's innocence as a legal fact trumps armchair lawyers every single time!" <<<

Everybody remember Jim Ostrowski's advice quoted above, folks. I.E.:

The only thing you have to do to ensure your innocence (regardless of
the dozens of pieces of evidence that prove you killed two people) is:

Get yourself murdered before you can go to trial.

And after you are murdered, per James Ostrowski, Esq., nobody will
EVER be allowed to investigate the evidence in order to determine your
guilt or innocence. Your death, IOW, prohibits the facts from being
known (regardless of how many guns and bullet shells you left at the
scenes of the murders you committed).

Counselor Ostrowski, as we can all see, doesn't give a damn about
finding the truth. He merely wants to take the noose from around the
killer's neck because he's a Constitutional Snob. And to hell with the
facts.

Right, James?

David Von Pein

unread,

Jun 4, 2010, 11:12:33 PM6/4/10

to

>>> "Because Oz never said "It's all over now."" <<<

Bullshit.

Of course Oz said it. And he said "This is it" too.

Here's Paul Bentley of the DPD, walking on crutches after being
injured during the scuffle in the Texas Theater, telling the world on
11/23/63 that he heard Oswald make both of those remarks in the
theater, which are remarks that reek with Oswald's guilty state of
mind (at the 5:00 mark in this video):

http://YouTube.com/watch?v=hSOWQjy01os