Re: JFK ASSASSINATION 101
David Von Pein
VIA A DISCUSSION AT YOUTUBE.COM:
Hi Paul,
Thanks for your message and questions. I'll try to answer them as best
I can below.
>>> "O.K. SBT. .... Please explain the following: You say part of the proof is that both people respond at the same time to being hit. Wouldn't physics, let alone common sense, suggest that they should respond at different times and they could not possibly be both hit at the same time?" <<<
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. It seems to me as if
you're saying this: Since we can see the two victims reacting at the
same time, this must mean they were hit by two separate bullets
instead of just one.
Anyway, if you look at the various SBT clips I have provided
(including the one below), you can easily see that those two men
(Kennedy & Connally) are definitely reacting at the same time just
after Frame 224 of the Zapruder home movie:
Most people apparently never take the time to focus on the movements
of the two victims, IN UNISON, just after Z224. Normally, the
researchers seem to want to focus on only one victim at a time. I
guess it is kind of difficult to focus on TWO things at once (i.e.,
the two victims), but it can be done by focusing your attention
between the two men. I have found this better enables me to see what's
happening with both victims at once.
>>> "Further, you also say that Connally only reacts when his wrist is hit (being broken into at least 7 pieces). This guy must be somehow superhuman, because using your own theory, he DOESN'T react to the entry wound in his back, he DOESN'T react to his 5th rib being hit, he DOESN'T react to his lung being lacerated, and finally he DOESN'T react to to the bullet exiting his body! Sounds like you are being very very selective with what you are promoting as fact." <<<
Not at all, Paul. If you have seen all of my articles that I posted at
my "Single-Bullet Theory" blog location (here: http://Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com),
you would have seen where I discuss all of John Connally's reactions
in some detail. Pay particular attention to the Z224-Z225 clip below
(for the initial INVOLUNTARY reactions on the part of Governor
Connally):
>>> "I totally agree with your argument regarding the high-powered weapon to be used to assassinate a chief of state. So this begs the question: why would Oswald buy one of the most unreliable rifles ever made? Surely he would have some knowledge of rifles after being in the Marines." <<<
Don't fall into that trap, Paul. Oswald's rifle was not the best rifle
in the world, that's true. But it hardly was a total piece of crap
either. In fact, the FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier said that
Oswald's Carcano was a good choice for an assassination weapon.
Here's what Frazier told the Warren Commission on that subject in 1964
(at 3 H 413):
MELVIN EISENBERG -- "Now, based upon the characteristics of Exhibit
139 [Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle], and the ammunition it
employs, and based upon your experience with the weapon, would you
consider it to have been a good choice for the commission of a crime
such as the assassination?"
ROBERT A. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir; I would."
MR. EISENBERG -- "Can you explain that?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes. Any rifle, regardless of its caliber, would be a
good choice if it would shoot accurately."
MR. EISENBERG -- "And did you find this shot accurately?"
MR. FRAZIER -- "Yes, sir."
3 H 413:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0211a.htm
I'll also add this additional fact here:
Oswald didn't have a whole lot of money when he purchased his rifle in
March 1963. So he certainly couldn't afford a very expensive weapon.
So, he bought a second-hand war surplus rifle from a mail-order house.
>>> "Further, why wouldn't he [Oswald] at the very least buy a rifle with a clip, so he can fire off possibly more shots and in quicker succession?" <<<
Oswald's rifle did have a clip, Paul. The clip is part of the evidence
now at the National Archives. It is Commission Exhibit No. 575 (seen
below):
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/a/af/Photo_naraevid_CE575-3.jpg
>>> "Your point [is a] fair claim [when I asked Paul:] "Where are all the other bullets"? Let me ask you exactly the same question. Where are the other 2 bullets you say Oswald fired? If it is unrealistic to have not found any [of] the CT's bullets, then it is fair for the Lone Assassin purveyors to produce the other 2." <<<
Only one of Oswald's three bullets was not found, Paul. And that was
the bullet from his first shot, which missed the whole limousine and
everybody in it. That bullet (IMO) is the one that resulted in the
slight injury to James Tague, who was standing by the Triple Underpass
on Main Street.
But Oswald's two bullets that made contact with the two victims were
found and recovered and are in evidence -- CE399 and the two large
fragments from the head shot that were found in the front seat of the
limousine (CE567 and CE569).
Most conspiracy theorists think that CE399 (the "stretcher bullet")
didn't hit either victim on November 22, 1963. I, however, vehemently
disagree with such a conclusion. And I think I make a good case for
CE399 being a legitimate bullet connected with the wounding of both
JFK and Connally in the articles linked below:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/afb30246ab698396
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/84689b600ce41d68
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/bceb46435b39817f
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7bf79593cce78406
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/f90802d6225a380e
>>> "Connally [is] still holding onto his hat. How is this possible if his wrist is virtually shattered?" <<<
Governor Connally held that hat ALL THE WAY to the hospital, Paul.
So we know for a fact that Connally definitely COULD have still held
his hat after his right wrist was broken. Have a look at what Nellie
Connally said about the "hat" in the article that follows:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/nellie.txt
>>> "The biggest problem of the SBT is that you and other "kooks" (using your word) cannot explain how a bullet that has made as much damage as this one is left virtually intact. Forget theories, forget physics, just use common sense. This is simply impossible, even the WC couldn't replicate this with all their experts." <<<
But the Warren Commission really never TRIED to replicate the damage
of Bullet CE399. The WC did various tests with Oswald's ammunition,
that's true enough. But they never did the ULTIMATE "SBT" TEST, which
would be to shoot a Carcano bullet like CE399 through TWO mock victims
in order to simulate ALL of the conditions of the real CE399.
Instead, the Warren Commission shot bullets SEPARATELY into goat
ribcages and human wrist bones. So, naturally, those bullets were
bound to be more damaged than CE399. That's common sense too, Paul.
It wasn't until 2004 that we finally got a good realistic simulation
of CE399, when the Discovery Channel tried to duplicate the path of
the so-called "magic bullet" by firing a Carcano missile through two
simulated torsos. And that test bullet took a path that generally
mimicked the path of the real CE399, and the test bullet emerged in
ONE UNFRAGMENTED PIECE. Here's that test bullet:
The above-linked test bullet isn't quite as undeformed as CE399, I
don't deny that fact. But one possible reason for the extra flattening
of that test bullet could be the fact that the test bullet actually
struck and broke one additional rib in the mock-up of Governor
Connally. The test resulted in two broken ribs in the "Connally"
torso; while the real John Connally only suffered one broken rib on
11/22/63.
Plus: In 1992, ballistics expert Dr. Martin Fackler fired a Carcano
bullet like Oswald's directly into a human wrist bone at a reduced
muzzle velocity of 1,100 feet-per-second (which was probably even a
little faster than Oswald's bullet was traveling when it hit
Connally's wrist on 11/22/63), and Fackler's bullet ended up in
perfect condition. It was totally undeformed.
Here is what Dr. Fackler's test bullet looked like after striking a
human wrist at 1100fps:
>>> "Cheers, Paul .... P.S. Whilst we are on different sides of the fence, I will say you have given me food for thought though. :-)" <<<
Thank you, Paul.
I hope you'll read some more of my Internet articles concerning the
way President Kennedy died. I think if you do, you might just discover
that the people who have spent the last several decades promoting a
conspiracy in the JFK murder case are the ones you should really
distrust and disbelieve, instead of the Warren Commission.
Best regards to you,
David Von Pein
lazu...@webtv.net
in the wrist, and struck Connally's 5th rib- you are going to tell us
with a straight face that this is virtually pristine ce 399?
Pigs can fly and dogs can sing in the lone nut world...Laz
David Von Pein
Reprise:
David Von Pein
>>> "Pigs can fly and dogs can sing in the lone nut world." <<<
Laz,
Doesn't it seem strange to you that BOTH the WC and the HSCA deemed
CE399 to be the "SBT" bullet? And the HSCA certainly wasn't part of
the "lone nut world", now were they?
Please inform the world why you disagree with the SBT so vehemently
even though BOTH the WC and the conspiracy-seeking HSCA concluded that
CE399 was the exact bullet that went through both JFK & JBC.
Gil Jesus
> Reprise:
>
> � � � "In 1992, ballistics expert Dr. Martin Fackler fired a Carcano
> bullet like Oswald's directly into a human wrist bone at a reduced
> muzzle velocity of 1,100 feet-per-second (which was probably even a
> little faster than Oswald's bullet was traveling when it hit
> Connally's wrist on 11/22/63), and Fackler's bullet ended up in
> perfect condition. It was totally undeformed. Here is what Dr.
> Fackler's test bullet looked like after striking a human wrist at
> 1100fps:"
>
Did he fire it from the Oswald rifle ?
Ben Holmes
lazu...@webtv.net says...
Or, as I'm frequently reminded... LNT'ers have followed the Queen's advice in
"Alice in Wonderland":
Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said "one can't believe impossible
things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age,
I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as
six impossible things before breakfast."
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Holmes
Learn to Make Money with a Website - http://www.burningknife.com
lazu...@webtv.net
sharper than Lowry and Marsh, as they seemed to be impressed that
Lattimer's magic bullet could go unscathed thru several feet of
Ponderosa Pine-last time I checked bone is not wood...Laz
mucher1
This is about velocity, Gil. It doesn't matter which rifle the bullet
was fired from.
mucher1
I guess you should've checked Ben's head. Its content of dense wooden
matter makes it perfectly suited for testing the penetrating ability
of FMJ ammunition.
Ben Holmes
lazu...@webtv.net says...
>
>Great quote Ben) Alice In Wonderland)
It's exactly what the LNT'ers are doing... believing in the impossible.
>-I guess Von Pein is a little
>sharper than Lowry and Marsh, as they seemed to be impressed that
>Lattimer's magic bullet could go unscathed thru several feet of
>Ponderosa Pine-last time I checked bone is not wood...Laz
robcap...@netscape.com
> In article <6155-4BF63649-1...@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net>,
> lazuli...@webtv.net says...
>
>
>
> >Great quote Ben) Alice In Wonderland)
>
> It's exactly what the LNT'ers are doing... believing in the impossible.
Sounds like the "pot" calling the "kettle" black to me.
Where is your supporting evidence for these CLAIMS of yours? (Note how
many would be right at home in a LNer convention!)
1) LHO ordered a 40" Carcano.
2) LHO received a 40" Carcano.
3) LHO owned a 40" Carcano (CE-139/C2766).
4) LHO posed with a 40" Carcano.
5) LHO's alleged 40" Carcano was high velocity.
6) LHO went to Mexico City for sure due to overwhelming evidence.
7) LHO had Marina take CE-133A and it is GENUINE.
8) LHO altered his own chin in CE-133A in the SAME MANNER others would
alter it in the other copies.
9) The clip was INSIDE the Carcano when it was found.
10) ONLY doctors with ballistics training can locate a back wound
correctly.
11) NO doctors have ballistic exptertise.
12) The FBI had IMMEDIATE JURISDICTION for the JFK murder.
13) The FBI has jurisidiction for ALL FELONIES in the U.S.
14) The vast majority of folks charged with a crime are guilty!
15) FMJ bullets routinely break into three pieces.
16) An INCONCLUSIVE ballistic test result FAVORS the WC (prosecution's
side) when they had THE BURDEN OF PROOF!
17) Much of the evidence against LHO PREDATES the Tampa attempt
(11/18/63).
18) The *MAJOR IMPETUS* for the government's coverup of the crime was
due to Valery Kostikov!
19) CE-573 (copper jacketed bullet) was used by LHO to shoot at Walker
when the official DPD report listed a STEEL JACKETED type!
20) Marina's claim of LHO shooting at Walker has corroboration
evidence.
21) That LHO had his watch fixed after it BROKE in 10/62 when YOUR own
cite (Marina) said he never did POST-ASSASSINATION!
22) That a low velocity CIVIL WAR MUSKET BALL killed JFK!
23) That JFK NEVER lived.
24) That a FMJ could do the damage seen in JFK's head.
25) That NO doctor at Parkland Hospital (a hospital that had hundred
of gunshot victims a year) was qualified to say a high velocity bullet
killed JFK.
26) That Lt. Day's claim of lifting a palmprint was as EQUALLY
PERSUASIVE as Latona's test results.
27) That due to NO doctor at PH having ballistic experience they could
NOT properly place the wound at T-3.
28) That the Bill of Lading proves 40" Carcanos were shipped to
Klein's in 2/63.
29) That LHO knew Silvia Duran because her name was in his alleged
notebook.
30) That many CT authors agree with you about there being
"overwhelming evidence" showing us LHO went to Mexico City when the WC/
CIA said he did!
31) Murder trials are held in Civil Courts too!
32) The overwhelming percentages of people who are charged with a
crime are guilty!
33) It is generally easy for the prosecution to lay out a case.
34) IF the defense is not sharp and busy presenting evidence of its
own, the defendent is prison-bound.
35) That Dr. Finck never discussed the fragments in the wrist of JBC
outweighing the amount lost by the “magic bullet” (CE399) UNTIL the
Garrison trial!
36) That no doctor was asked during their testimony before the WC to
ID the murder weapon.
37) That there were three eyewitnesses who corroborate LHO’s trip to
Mexico City as they saw him at a party at Silvia Duran’s house.
David Von Pein
>>> "My original point one is this: let's say that Kennedy and Connally were hit by the same bullet. It is physically impossible for them both to react at the same time to their wounds, as Connally would have been hit AFTER Kennedy. It takes time for a bullet to traverse Kennedy's body, then exit, then enter Connally's body. Therefore, they CANNOT react at the same time if they were hit by the same bullet. Simple logic. .... You are saying the shots the WC fired into a single carcass "naturally" will come out more damaged than a bullet that travels through many bones and tissues. This statement completely defies any and all logic. Please explain how an object hitting multiple targets doing multiple damage gets damaged LESS than an object hitting one target." <<<
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2163522a2edd78dd
I tried to be helpful and friendly, Paul [via the post linked above].
But it's obvious that you are beyond help. And, quite frankly, after
reading your last reply, it sounds like you are deliberately trying to
be as stupid as possible when it comes to the evidence connected to
this case.
Like all JFK conspiracy theorists, you cannot evaluate evidence
properly. That fact is obvious by the fact that you think there would
be a noticeable difference in Kennedy's and Connally's reactions when
the same bullet (moving at a velocity of about 1900 fps) strikes them.
In such a situation, of course, the two victims would essentially be
reacting AT THE SAME TIME. But you want to split hairs and say they
would have to react separately, even though a bullet traveling at
almost 2000 fps has just struck them. That, Paul, is just plain silly
on your part.
And if you can't see my point regarding the Warren Commission only
firing bullets individually into goat ribs and cadaver wrists, without
the benefit of those bullets being slowed down by having passed
through TWO bodies first, then I can't help you see the obvious.
You can go back to bed now. Jim Fetzer's feet are getting cold.
Ben Holmes
robcap...@netscape.com says...
>
>On May 21, 9:34=A0am, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
>> In article <6155-4BF63649-1...@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net>,
>> lazuli...@webtv.net says...
>>
>>
>>
>> >Great quote Ben) Alice In Wonderland)
>>
>> It's exactly what the LNT'ers are doing... believing in the impossible.
>
>Sounds like the "pot" calling the "kettle" black to me.
>
>Where is your supporting evidence for these CLAIMS of yours?
Why are you listing *YOUR* claims, and not my quotes?
timstter
> In article <6155-4BF63649-1...@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net>,
>
>
>
> >Great quote Ben) Alice In Wonderland)
>
> It's exactly what the LNT'ers are doing... believing in the impossible.
>
> >-I guess Von Pein is a little
> >sharper than Lowry and Marsh, as they seemed to be impressed that
> >Lattimer's magic bullet could go unscathed thru several feet of
> >Ponderosa Pine-last time I checked bone is not wood...Laz
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ben Holmes
> Learn to Make Money with a Website -http://www.burningknife.com
What like how YOU believed that the presence of a lady in yellow pants
in the Nix film was an indicator of Zaprduer film forgery?
You certainly ran when your mistaken belief on THAT issue was exposed,
Benny, LOL!
Smiling Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
David Von Pein
TONY MARSH, DOING HIS USUAL FINE JOB OF MISREPRESENTING THE WORDS OF
HIS FELLOW POSTERS, SAID:
>>> "You said the rifle came with a clip." <<<
DAVID R. VON PEIN SAID:
Nope. I never said the rifle "came" with a clip. Here's what I said
(which Anthony Marsh decided to interpret incorrectly, as usual):
"Oswald's rifle did have a clip. The clip is part of the
evidence now at the National Archives. It is Commission Exhibit No.
575." -- DVP; 05/20/10
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2163522a2edd78dd
The quote shown above is perfectly accurate -- i.e., Oswald's rifle
"did have a clip" accompanying it in the TSBD when the rifle was found
by the police on November 22, 1963.
The assumption on the part of the person my quote was being aimed at
(Paul) was that he seemed to believe that there was NO CLIP at all
being utilized by Oswald when Oswald was shooting President Kennedy
with Rifle C2766 from the Book Depository.
It was that particular false assumption that I was correcting when I
said to Paul: "Oswald's rifle did have a clip."
David Von Pein
ADDENDUM:
Paul,
I responded IN FULL to every point you made in my lengthy and very
reasoned first reply to you yesterday. And every single point you make
is discussed at great length at my websites as well.
You need to understand bullet velocities to fully understand CE399 and
its post-shooting condition. Larry Sturdivan, a ballistics expert,
wrote a book ("The JFK Myths") discussing in great detail all of the
ins & outs of the velocity topic. It's the key to understanding why
CE399 looks like it does now.
In short, JFK's body and JBC's torso slowed that bullet to below
1400fps, which is the speed below which NO MANNLICHER-CARCANO BULLET
CAN DEFORM if the bullet is tumbling, as CE399 certainly was.
Therefore, since that bullet was travelling at a speed LESS than
1400fps when it struck Connally's wrist, then NO FURTHER DAMAGE would
be expected to that bullet.
Simple logic. And even simpler velocity data.