Authorizing Electronic Balloting at Convention

[Rob Latham]

With the understanding that the Bylaws need to explicitly authorize electronic balloting before electronic methods may be used to process proportional ranked choice voting for at-large member elections -- and ranked choice voting for Officer elections -- this proposal is intended to accomplish that.

All the draft proposal does is add this language in Article 10, which cover conventions:

Electronic balloting may be used in voting for Party officers and at-large members of the National Committee.

Further details would be set forth in the convention special rules of order.

I don't want this to be a formal proposal yet as I would like discussion and feedback on this proposal.

In liberty,

Rob Latham

[Secretary LNC]

I will get this added to the rolling agenda and worksheets later today.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

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[Rob Latham]

In light of the observation made during our last meeting that the Party's parliamentary authority does not require the express authorization in the bylaws for electronic balloting, I removed the sentence that reads "The Party’s parliamentary authority does not permit the use of electronic balloting without express authorization in its bylaws." from the attached revised proposal.

That said, it still makes sense to me to make such authorization explicit so that the Party may use electronic balloting if it opts to do so.

For reference, this is currently Proposal P on our committee's list.

For discussion and potential adoption, I also added the phrase "or tabulating unofficial election results" to the revised proposal.

RONR appears to distinguish between voting and tabulating.

My intention here is that a paper ballot (possibly Scantron-style) would be the official ballot for a ranked choice voting (or proportional ranked choice voting) election.

To accommodate those who may struggle with patience, and/or lack trust in electronic voting processes, my intention here is also that machine-readable paper ballots would be used to provide relatively quick, preliminary, unofficial election results.

The official results would be the outcome of a subsequent hand-count. (In Utah, for example, unofficial results are announced a few hours to a few days after the polls closed, and the results from a later, official tabulation process is called a "canvass". See https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title20A/Chapter4/20A-4-P3.html

In liberty,

Rob Latham

[Secretary LNC]

I have no idea what unofficial election results is supposed to mean or accomplish here.  Particularly in a bylaw.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/224795e7-a345-4772-81fc-7df30c1a58a4n%40lp.org.

[Rob Latham]

Preliminary, non-final, tabulations of elections is what the phrase "unofficial election results" is intended to mean.

The term is often used in my home state. Click here for examples.

It appears that Coloradans also use the term. Click here for examples.

My previous email attempts to explain why Version 2 proposed this language: "Electronic balloting may be used in voting, or tabulating unofficial election results, for Party officers and at-large members of the National Committee."

That said, I'll propose starting our committee's discussion on authorizing electronic balloting in our Bylaws with the attached, basic version (Version 3): "Electronic balloting may be used in voting and tabulating elections for Party officers and at-large members of the National Committee."

In liberty,

Rob Latham

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[Secretary LNC]

I just don't see the point to the other.  

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[Ken Moellman]

The inherent issue we found in previous bylaws committees with authorizing electronic voting was the distrust of the people who were empowered to choose the mechanism.

Proposals were made to require 2/3rds of the LNC to approve, to have the JC approve, to have the state chairs approve; or some combination therein.

The main thing is, you have to have an open mechanism so the delegates trust who might be choosing the system in the future; not necessarily today, but 2 or 3 conventions from now.

I personally like 2/3rds of the LNC and 3/4 of the state chair must approve, but that's just me.

---

Ken C. Moellman, Jr.

Executive Director

Libertarian Party of Kentucky

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[Secretary LNC]

I spoke with JJ.  We do not have to authorize electronic voting in bylaws but will likely need to prohibit write-ins for it to work, and having anything "unofficial" does not belong in bylaws.  Our current convention rules is what is the issue.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Secretary LNC]

Apologies but I am confused (my bad), is there a proposal that I need to add or. a revision to one that I need to upload and update the agenda?  IOW if this is an existing proposal do I have the most current language?

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Rob Latham]

I have not yet drafted a proposal that would amend the rules, and my sense from various inputs is that's what I need to do first. My intention is to put something together by tomorrow.

So, you have the latest proposal that I have put together, but I hope to have a different version by Thursday's meeting.

In liberty,

Rob Latham 

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[Secretary LNC]

Okay I'm going to wait to put it on agenda 

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[Rob Latham]

Sounds good, although I did stumble across language from the 2009-2010 Bylaws and Rules Committee's report that seems pretty serviceable (ugh! why didn't I see that earlier?), with some changes.

Based upon that provision at RONR 12th Ed. 45:42 -- "If the devices are to be used for an election, provision must be made for voters to cast write-in votes." -- I added language in the attached proposal (so this is version four) to address that. 

Note that this version, unlike the previous versions, proposes to amend an existing rule, not a bylaw.

As a historical note, that 2009-2010 committee favored the proposal on a 10-0 vote, but it did not get a 2/3rds vote at the 2010 convention, perhaps proving that there is such a thing as being too ahead of one's time, even in Libertarian circles. ;-)

That said, both technology and awareness have evolved, so delegates may be more receptive to authorizing the use of electronic vote tabulation equipment, with provisions for a manual recount if enough delegates call for one.

In liberty,

Rob Latham

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[Secretary LNC]

In the chair's worksheet, I linked various past proposals.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAOKuKGn2JBNBU5pDnf4e-zJCNv3bif_nD_Xg0U-AD%3D%2BMkXucHg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Secretary LNC]

So let me know when it's ready for agenda.

[Rob Latham]

I see that you did link that resource, and thank you. I have used that resource in the past, and am chagrined at not recalling that resource when I initially sat down to craft that proposal.

It's an object lesson that those resources are available for us.

As for whether Proposal P is ready for the agenda, I am okay putting it on the agenda.

I see that it's the next item on the agenda after Proposal O.

If any committee members would prefer to have more time to study the proposal or discuss it online, I don't want to rush consideration of the proposal and would not object to saving the discussion of Proposal P for a future meeting.

In liberty,

Rob Latham

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[Secretary LNC]

What is the latest version?  I am sorry that this one is just confusing me on what the latest version is but if you can post it again, I would be appreciative.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAOKuKGmGXDmM7-LcF2nWfi1Z6k6DJ6X9VF3a_BHt%2BCTZkpKsRA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rob Latham]

No worries. Version four.

Word file attached (with accompanying photos).

In liberty,

Rob Latham

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[Mike Seebeck]

It didn't get enough votes because the system had not been vetted by delegated nor properly independently reviewed by IT experts for stability, security, and robustness. 

I was one of those leading that opposition. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAOKuKGn2JBNBU5pDnf4e-zJCNv3bif_nD_Xg0U-AD%3D%2BMkXucHg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rob Latham]

The manual recount language is to address concerns with electronic tabulation.

I fully expect if this proposal is adopted and implemented that 20 delegates will call for a manual recount. I would probably join in the call for a manual recount to see whether there are any disparities between the electronic tabulation method used and a hand count.

Under our current rules, there's a hand count anyway. This proposal gives delegates an opportunity to see how an electronic tabulation method may save time.

Here's the proposed manual recount language: "If an electronic voting system is in use and twenty or more delegates challenge the reported vote, there shall be a manual recount of all ballots cast. Subsequently, if twenty or more delegates challenge the vote reported after the manual recount, the Secretary shall poll by individual state delegation, requiring each delegate to read out loud the votes on that delegate's receipt."

That last sentence raises the secret ballot question for me. Would that language, by its own terms, affect the secrecy of the ballot? One supposes that language could be clarified to mean that the Secretary or a member of the teller team would verify with each delegate whether the ballot was accurate or not.

In liberty,

Rob Latham

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[Rob Latham]

When an electronic balloting rules amendment was proposed at the 2010 national convention, I was unaware of any commercial (or non-profit, for that matter) electronic balloting solution available at the time.

Just did a cursory look for such solutions and am posting some of the results below, which I hope the members of this committee find as interesting as I do. And I doubt this is a complete list:

https://www.electionsonline.com/blog/post.cfm/ranked-choice-voting

https://www.bigpulsevoting.com/features/

https://www.opavote.com/pricing

https://support.electionbuddy.com/en/articles/5146830-preferential-voting

https://www.eballot.com/resources/ranked-choice-voting

https://www.simplyvoting.com/features/

https://electionrunner.com/support/kb/ballot/ranked-choice-voting-instant-runoff-voting/

In liberty,

Rob Latham

[Rob Latham]

Given the discussion about "computer readable ballots" in the Party's rules during the public comment portion of this evening's meeting, I amended this proposal to replace Rule 3.3 rather than be added to Rule 8.

Seems to be a better fit there.

Files (same proposal in .docx, .pdf, and .png format) attached.

In liberty,

Rob Latham

[Rob Latham]

Updated with the addition of this language: " and tellers approved by the Secretary"

Files (same proposal in .docx, .pdf, and .png format) attached.

In liberty,

Rob Latham

[Rob Latham]

Colleagues,

Thank you for the feedback on this proposal during this evening's meeting.

Two versions incorporating many (if not all) of the suggestions are attached.

The only difference between the 2nd and 3rd substitutes should be the language in 4.

(Drafters in my region have been replacing "shall" with "must" and I have been following suit, but am comfortable with either word.)

Please let me know if the language of either substitute proposal should be revised in any way.

Kindly,

Rob Latham

[Secretary LNC]

I will take a look over the weekend.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

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[ken.mo...@lpky.org]

I was going to note on the call, after the meeting was ended, that the COC is an LNC-created committee, not a bylaws-created committee. But I wasn't allowed to finish my point and since we weren't in a meeting and I had other things to do,  I dropped off.

If you want the COC to do it, then you need to grant that power to the LNC, who can then delegate it (or not) to the COC.

Based on what I was told, the role of the COC has changed over time. There were 2 committees for a while; one for oversight and one for execution.  They were combined because the oversight committee had no control over the execution committee and the execution committee just did whatever they wanted to. To stop that contention, the committees were merged. Or that's how it was explained to me while I was on COC.

Ken

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[Secretary LNC]

There's no need to grant power to the LNC.  Electronic voting is allowed by default.  It was that rule that prevented true electronic voting.  The fact that there might not be a committee by that name in the future is a potential problem.  

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--

[Secretary LNC]

If that's a real concern then the only group to allow would be LNC (or the Secretary which I don't like) and that I think will freak people out.  We have had a CoC for a long time.  

[Secretary LNC]

You don't need the change to article 10.

[Rob Latham]

The language referring to Article 10 is from the original proposal and is the discussion thread starter (back on January 23rd). The intent of the updated proposal(s) is to amend Rule 3 only.

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[Secretary LNC]

Okay how about this so it has some vagueness I don't like:

RULE 3: POLLING PROCEDURE

[…]

3. In cases where computer readable ballots are used, each delegate must sign the ballot and submit it to the delegation chair. After verifying that the number of votes cast does not exceed the number the state is entitled to, the chair of each delegation shall submit the ballots to the Secretary. During the period of time allotted for such votes, the business of the convention shall continue without interruption.

3. Electronic voting may be used instead of manual tabulation by state delegation provided that written notice of the voting system to be used is published on the Party website at least 90 days prior to the regular convention and must include provisions for the following:

a. Contemporaneous manual ballots are completed and turned into each Delegation Chair and placed into a designated envelope provided for this purpose.

b. A report is generated of votes by state delegation for display to the convention.

c. Delegates may cast write-in votes.

4. If a recount is successfully ordered, the recount must be done using the physical ballots collected by the Delegation Chairs.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAOKuKGkJyx1Tv%3DGQ%3D6Z90Zja%2B0TG6BSy4MhAppvX2YE2384CsA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Secretary LNC]

there is some awkward grammar in there but the general idea is there..... I don't think we need the unique ID if we have written ballots and it can turn out to violate secrecy - it serves no purpose.  

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Secretary LNC]

It leaves open who authorizes it which is a vagueness I don't like and ultimately it would default to the LNC but right now our rules allow "computer readable ballots" and who is deciding that?  

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Rob Latham]

I'm not strongly in favor of uniquely numbered ballots; our conventions have not used them in the past.

However, one improvement they would have upon the current method is to make each ballot voter-verifiable.

Ideally, all of the printed ballots are scanned and made available to Party members (and perhaps the proposed Rule should require that) and others (which would be valuable to those seeking to analyze the vote, such as how different electoral methods may yield different outcomes).

Theoretically, each convention delegate who kept a record of their ballot (e.g., by taking a photo with a smartphone) could check the scanned ballot record to verify their ballot. Like a "ballot selfie," each delegate could choose to share their record with others or not.

The ballots would not include personally-identifiable information (unless the voter wanted to make such a personally-identifying mark on the ballot).

The process I envision is:

*A delegate uses a smartphone or computer terminal to generate a cast ballot (the cast ballot is electronically recorded at this point).

*The delegate retrieves the cast ballot paper from a printer (and may make a record of that ballot before the next step).

*The delegate submits the cast ballot paper to the delegation chair.

*The delegation chair submits the cast ballot papers from the delegation to the Secretary and tellers.

*Once all the delegation chairs have submitted their cast ballot papers, the votes are electronically tabulated.

*The Secretary or Secretary's designee announces the election results.

*As some point in time (it doesn't have to be immediate, but it seems like the sooner, the better) the teller team then scans each ballot paper into an electronic file for public inspection (assume this process creates a roughly 1,000-page document).

*If a recount is ordered, the tellers hand count the cast ballot papers submitted by the delegation chairs.

In liberty,

Rob Latham

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[Secretary LNC]

I think the unique number complicate things but leaving it to you guys.  

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[Mike Seebeck]

What's a "contemporaneous manual ballot?"

A cocktail napkin? A triplicate receipt (now THAT'S a good paper trail!)? An index card? Can it vary between delegates, delegations, or ballots?

I think you might mean "standard/contemporary physical ballot."

My point is that a physical ballot to backup anything electronic should be consistent or standardized for ease of record keeping and traceability. The index card system used most recently by some states and national is a good example.

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[Secretary LNC]

Wording needs work but it was the more simple way I was trying to go.

We need to add person must be present with delegation to vote.

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[Rob Latham]

Had this idea (to save on the cost of paper and printing): the electronic voting system would generate a unique ballot number, but the unique ballot number (kind of like a confirmation number for a hotel or airline reservation) would be displayed on the smartphone or computer screen alongside that delegate's vote.

That way, the voter could take a screenshot, or "ballot selfie" if using a computer screen, if the voter later wanted to verify the vote in the cast vote record (the cast vote record would be the 1,000-page document the electronic voting system could generate after tabulating the election).

Presumably, the electronic voting system selected would generate a standardized ballot form.

...

A proposed rule could look like this:

a. Contemporaneously displayed and uniquely-numbered completed cast ballots for each delegate's verification.

Replacing

a. Contemporaneously printed completed paper ballots for manual verification.

b. A uniquely numbered receipt issued to each voting delegate.

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[Secretary LNC]

Let's not please complicate - and as Sectetary we need paper ballots for routine after convention audits.

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[Rob Latham]

Not requiring paper on the front end may make it easier for the Secretary to audit paper (if paper is desired, but auditing a PDF may work just as well) on the back end.

Many of these electronic voting systems allow the cast vote record to be printed after all of the votes have been tabulated.

It may be a cleaner, more efficient way to go.

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[Secretary LNC]

That's too much of a cha he.  Up to you guys but you're starting to lose me on this.  

The paper ballot was the pivotal point for me.

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[Rob Latham]

I'm indifferent on paper.

That said, there is a paperless option that satisfies a verification criteria.

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[Secretary LNC]

That defeats the whole ease people into, trust, and challenge factor.

I would super hope that the fact I've been Secretarty, I'm fairly certain what Alicia would say, Mike being multiple head teller (though I don't know his view on this) and other provisions on the past failing carries some weight.

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[Rob Latham]

Another question: 

I do favor requiring delegates to be physically present to vote with their delegation (whether just on a smartphone, or laptop(s) stationed at the delegation).

And I have seen electronic voting systems with the capacity to display results at the delegation chair level. (If you have 30 minutes to kill -- or less if you watch it at a faster speed -- here's a video discussing one electronic voting system from the administrator's view: https://youtu.be/BnCx_0NBkwQ?t=1635)

However, does this proposed rule language create an unnecessary step?

"Reports listing delegates that have cast ballots from each state delegation."

or

"A report is generated of votes by state delegation for display to the convention."

I get that dividing up votes by affiliate delegation could act as a second check on accuracy, but is it any more of a check than making each ballot verifiable by the delegate who cast the ballot?

Am looking at this from the standpoint of the Convention Oversight Committee negotiated with vendors of electronic voting systems. 

Requiring the system to break down the vote by affiliate delegation rather than convention-wide seems like an extra programming step.

That said, breaking it down by affiliate delegation is how it's always been done in my memory. From a delegate comfort-level standpoint it seems like that option ought to be preserved. Yet am wondering as I review some of the language whether it ought to be required by rule.

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[Secretary LNC]

The by delegation is how people know whether to challenge.  That is why our rules require display that way.

Rob, I think you keep looking at this like it's a brand new org rather than one that is mature, resistant to change, and has certain processes that have worked.

This is morphing overnight into a simple integrating electronic voting in our existing system with lots of trust backup not changing the way we do everything entirely.   

I mean do what you want but my optimism from last night is rapidly fading.

We are not a "convention" as a homogeneous whole.  We are a convention of constituent units - states.  That is a super essential characteristic when it comes to elections.

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[Rob Latham]

Some elements of the proposal will be new to some convention delegates and affiliates.

Am trying to gauge through this discussion among our committee what new elements will be acceptable to convention delegates and affiliates, and what old elements convention delegates and affiliates will want to keep.

My sense is that an electronic voting system would be able to easily display votes by delegation, round-by-round, both on convention hall display screens as well as through a dedicated website. And that will be pretty cool.

(Perhaps we can involve the folks at RCVIS in providing visualizations.)

As has been said before, what our convention will be gaining through electronic voting is time. Stationing several printers around the convention hall would be a new feature as well, and may not save time, but seems like a necessary one for trust and verification purposes.

If there's a difference between the quick, electronically tabulated results, and the later manual recounts of printed ballots, we'll know something hinky was going on.

In any event, I anticipate sending around another substitute proposal to incorporate some of what has been discussed. My sense is that we can wait until we get closer to our next meeting to link to what will be the main proposal to start the discussion.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9WkbPftkhCMtxapMfGdohCfXWX5%2BKAFU-mFP_vKrYM5r8A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Sylvia Arrowwood]

---

From: "Secretary LNC" <secr...@lp.org>
To: "bylaws-committee-2024" <bylaws-com...@lp.org>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2023 10:03:42 AM
Subject: Re: BYLAWS-COMMITTEE Re: Authorizing Electronic Balloting at Convention

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9W%3D0hmEGSS8rWEnVeuz_Rs7O%3DkvOY9Ogk%3DYVKt1BJ3ue2A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rob Latham]

How about this language to clean up the vagueness?

"The National Committee or, by its delegation, the Convention Oversight Committee may authorize use of an electronic voting system ..."

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9WnqRiuRjiOYZGO0Pa1DR0ySRqRQeBcfDQxddR3JdCPoqQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Mike Seebeck]

My take. Wearing my Teller hat.

For now, primary balloting that counts on a consistent physical format (I mentioned index cards but I love the triplicate receipt idea more!) for counting, auditing, and later examination if needed, while introducing an electronic form as a non-binding shadow run as demonstration as to how it works, generate feedback from delegates for improvement, and so on. Take 2 or 3 NatCons to sort that out, with a switchover to electronic primary and paper secondary after people get used to it.

The advantages of this approach is it takes advantage of time to get it right, gets end-users and the processors of the votes to try it and feed back the problems and benefits, while still keeping a necessary paper trail.

What would REALLY be great, IMO, is a hybrid where the ballots are physical, are counted electronically, like a Scantron, and have multiple backups like the triplicate forms (white copy to national, yellow copy to state, pink copy to delegate), but that might be cost-prohibitive.

How that would work out in Bylaws and Convention Rules? Not sure.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAGiA9W%3Did14v8qbcUTF4BvDw92dSF%2B87LiSF%3DJpk-xyych6gqw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rob Latham]

Given that the consensus from last night’s discussion and further discussion online appears to favor printed ballots, this logistical question arose for me:

Q: How does the printed ballot get from the printer into the hands of the voting delegate, who then turns that printed ballot into their delegation chair?

Possible A: Tellers would be stationed at convention floor printers and distribute printed ballots to convention delegates – using that unique ballot number.

The naming convention for that unique ballot number could utilize an affiliate’s postal code to make the ballot sortable by affiliate. For example, a unique ballot number for a delegate from a Washington affiliate could be WA-7461. (Potential problem: delegations with one delegate, how that delegate voted will not be a secret, but that phenomenon has existed since I’ve been attending LPNatCons.)

The delegate would know which printed ballot to collect from the teller staffing that affiliate’s ballot printing station by displaying the unique ballot number on their smartphone (or perhaps the delegate used a laptop computer and wrote down the unique ballot number, which could then be shown to a teller to collect the printed ballot).

I don’t know whether this aspect of the process needs to be in a rule. My sense is that we need to have an idea in mind of how the rules that are written can be put into practice, and outlined in both teller training and delegate orientation.

[Rob Latham]

Expressing concurrence here.

Wasn't sure about printing on index cards, but I researched and standard printers do accommodate them.

My sense is that a rule requiring the  electronic voting system to create a printed, physical, cast ballot for each delegate after a vote is cast should be sufficient; the form of the physical ballot (8" x 11" paper, 3" x 5" index card, etc.) could be left to the discretion of the National Committee and/or the electronic voting system vendor.

In liberty,

Rob Latham

[Secretary LNC]

I am not on board with these numbers.  It destroys the secret ballot.  We do paper ballots NOW with now numbers.  

I think part of the problem here is that I and MIke are the only ones who actually know how this process WORKS.

The way there would be physical ballots is not complicated.  The delegation chairs go up to the tellers desk and get a packet just like they do RIGHT NOW with their Delegation Chair Ballot Tally Sheet.

Part of the problems with these voting proposals, honestly, is no one is bothering to ask me in detail how the Secretary and tellers actually do their work.

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

--
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[Secretary LNC]

*NOW without numbers

___________________________________________________

In Liberty, Caryn Ann Harlos

LNC Secretary and LP Historical Preservation Committee Chair ~ 561.523.2250

[Rob Latham]

Although losing unique ballot numbering eliminates voter-verifiability, unique ballot numbering is not a deal-breaker for me as to this proposal as the Party has not used it in the past, so I don't mind jettisoning it to move this forward.

As one who has administered affiliate and organizational elections, and served on LPNatCon tellers teams, consider this post an invitation to the Secretary to explain how the Secretary does the Secretary's work as it relates to this proposal.

I would like to reduce the number of bottlenecks in the current process and reduce workload through the implementation of electronic voting.

If the convention uses an electronic voting system for elections, what purpose is served by requiring delegation chairs to go to the tellers' desk to collect a packet prior to the vote?

As I currently understand the proposed process -- acknowledging this proposal is a work in progress and can evolve -- delegates would be voting with their delegations through an electronic means (smartphone, tablet, laptop, etc.).

The Secretary and Secretary's designees/tellers (and preferably delegation chairs if the electronic voting system can facilitate that) would have access to an administrative interface for the voting system to monitor the progress of the election. Through that monitoring they can determine which delegates have and have not voted.

When I envision delegation chairs or their designess going to the tellers' desk is after all of the affiliate's voting delegates have cast ballots ... with all of that affiliate's cast ballots ... to deposit them in a ballot box. (Before that happens, each delegate will have retrieved their cast ballot from a teller-staffed printer station to check that their vote was accurately cast, as that printed ballot will be the final authority if there is a discrepancy between the printed results and the electronic results.)

[Secretary LNC]

I'm going to reserve my explanation for the meeting as it appears there's a lot of talking past each other.  The packets would be the ballots printed up.  Each delegation chair would get a packet with their tally sheet and a standard ballot form so we are not recounting on napkins, torn corners of paper etc.  The delegation chair would tell each delegate to vote electronically AND turn in the ballot to them.  They would put in back in envelope, seal and return to tellers.  That way a recount would be "pure" with no opportunity to get in additional or changed ballots.  Once each delegation chair turned back in their sealed packet, the electronic results would be displayed.  

If a recount is ordered, the sealed ballots are already in the tellers station.  If not, they go home with secretary for customary audit.

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--

[Secretary LNC]

**standard ballot forms for their state in no greater a number than their delegate allocation 

This is a control system.

I'm asking the committee to really try to concentrate on rules and not tread into fine details of logistics as that is really the province and responsibility of the Secretary.

[Secretary LNC]

I've been blessed to have multiple people on this committee on my teller teams.  But the overall picture is really known by the secretary and to a slightly leaser extent his or her head teller.  The individual tellers handle pieces of the puzzle.  So that's why it's critical to hear from current and past Secretaries and current and past head tellers.

[Secretary LNC]

Last comment, no the Secretary nor tellers should be able to "monitor" the evoting.  That type of control and monitoring is done by delegation chairs who tell us when their delegation is done.

The only access the Secretary or tellers should have us to the final results screen.

[Rob Latham]

This iteration endeavors to incorporate prior input.

In liberty,

Rob Latham

...

Proposal #P (4^th Substitute)

RULE 3: POLLING PROCEDURE

RULE 3: POLLING PROCEDURE

[…]

3. Electronic voting may be used instead of manual tabulation by affiliate delegation provided that written notice of the electronic voting system to be used is published on the Party website at least 90 days prior to the regular convention. A delegate or alternate must be physically present to cast an electronic ballot. The electronic voting system must provide for the following:

a. Casting an electronic vote generates a physical ballot, which the voting delegate or alternate gives to their respective Delegation Chair for placement into a designated envelope provided for this purpose.

b. The system generates a report of votes by affiliate delegation for display to the convention.

c. The system allows delegates to cast write-in votes.

4. If a recount is successfully ordered, the recount must be done using the physical ballots collected by the Delegation Chairs. 

Proviso: This amendment shall take effect upon the final adjournment of the convention at which it is adopted.

 

 

 

 

[Secretary LNC]

I have issues I'm saving for meeting.  It all begins with the "generates" part.  You solved issues just to create the same one and a new one.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/9ae9d1fc-2c12-4ea8-bb9d-6ef5e40994fdn%40lp.org.

[Secretary LNC]

Going through the rules I see a lot of problems.  

Our rules mix together balloting procedure in many places.  They all need to be combined here.

The rules on voting need a complete redo to be put in one place.

This section isn't even about ballotting but polling.  The thing about delegation chair is just shoved in there in old rules.

I'm going to write a substitute.

[Secretary LNC]

A substitute to fix the screwy all over the place procedure and part b to add electronic voting.

[Secretary LNC]

The more I look at our current rules, the  messier they are.

We need just one Rule 2 which will cover Rule 2, 3, parts of 7, parts of 8, and 10 all in one rule.  Then with some part B added language for electronic voting.

[Frank Martin]

I know some on this committee have done a lot of work already on this, and I apologize if my ignorance of those efforts make my comments below redundant. I have no experience of the LPCon voting process, but I do have experience bringing IT into new realms, processes and organizations.

Both the current voting process and the proposed electronic one are complex enough to warrant flow-charting. That would allow us to spot gaps in procedure and nail down the steps to be taken in electronic voting. Documentation of this kind would also allow delegates to understand exactly what they were considering and can expect with this proposal. This documentation might also be useful in shopping for the infrastructure to execute.

Another direction to work from is to issue RFPs to vendors of electronic voting systems. The RFP would include requirements based on our rules and bylaws. The vendor response would include something like a flow-chart. Trying one of these systems on as a shadow to the current system, as suggested by another committee member, allows us to further refine our understanding of the process and our documentation.

I also think this entire matter might best be left to its own, dedicated committee or sub-committee. It goes pretty far beyond a mere revision of bylaws and rules.

--

Frank Martin

[Rob Latham]

Agreed on the need for a flowchart, Frank.

Had contemplated creating one after a past exchange suggested that two different processes were contemplated, at least as to the timing and/or method of how completed ballots are "generated."

With the development that a broader rewrite is in the works, and a lack of time to throw at the project, I have held off creating a flowchart for now.

My request would be a flowchart that:

1) Is created in a format that can be easily amended, and

2) Does not support a rule that fosters path dependency (i.e., the proposed rule should accommodate different voting processes, within the constraints of Party Bylaws, its parliamentary authority, and other considerations).

Do folks have flowchart solutions they recommend?

In liberty,

Rob Latham

P.S.: Some flowchart ideas for inspiration:

Secret-Ballot-Voting-Flowchart-Detail.png (862×1200) (govote.com.au)

Data-flow-Diagram-for-Online-Voting-System.png (706×886) (researchgate.net)

irv-flowchart.png (389×455) (daneckam.com)

--

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[Secretary LNC]

Just so no one is blind-sided, my intent is still to submit what I previously indicated.  I hope to do that before this weekend or over the weekend while I'm in Oregon.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lp.org/d/msgid/bylaws-committee-2024/CAOKuKGmYT4%3D8anvBewuv3yRuVk8gy6MFy3F9nFMCXG9dx08kEQ%40mail.gmail.com.