[VO26] - The Technical Regress!
ilias
Kit) was included.
There were many 3rd-party-tools included, too.
However, many of them are included as a "standard version", so a
VO-user has to buy the full version in some circumstances
At least one 3rd-Party-Tool were included in an unfinished state: the
COMSDK, which should solve the critical task of Automation Server
Events.
There are developers which still use VO25b3 although they have bought
the VO26 version.
Why?
Simple - because technically VO26 is a regress.
-
Some links to usent-discussion refering to VO26. Of course this list
is not complete.
VO2.6 is based on 2.5c:
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=ao78mn%24uhm%2402%241%40news.t-online.com
(that would explain much, as VO2.5c was in an unfinished stated, thus
GrafX took-over unstable code)
Repo-Import/Export-Crash, ToolBar-UpdateCount
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=bhb01d%242430%241%40dipt.donbass.net
Class-VMT-table destruction:
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=b1qmvi%247rb%241%40dipt.donbass.net
Class-VMT, default parameters
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=beeivj%24bgq%241%40dipt.donbass.net
some solutions / remarks for default-parameters:
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=149888017390.20021117205854%40sas-software.nl
ActiveX codegenerator code do not compile
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=6QIna.28684%24MB4.10795876%40news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net
and:
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=bipith$a94$1...@reader10.wxs.nl
Repository brought out-of-sync in VO26
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=3m7okv0m4u8g33ad7...@4ax.com
Collation Sequences
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=Bhyr9.29857%24334.71151%40news-server.bigpond.net.au
-
A highly disappointed veteran - Refund or not refund?:
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=QARs9.9522%24DP6.31454%40news-server.bigpond.net.au
One year without patches/fix. Why ?
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=ab48at%24iu%241%40suaar1ac.prod.compuserve.com
Bought VO26, but still use 2.5 - some thoughts about transparency:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=0Pls9.2798%24DP6.11712%40news-server.bigpond.net.au
-
The VO 2.6 FixList:
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=3f0a9eac.7824828%40news.zonnet.nl
Tracy Thomas
features of this software. If you desire more than standard features - it is
certainly reasonable _and typical_ to require purchase of the full version.
If you are on a crusade to free the world of incomplete 'standard versions'
you should be aware that this is a wide practice. You seem to like to
converse with the larger corporate society and point out their faults: ESRI
might be a good target.
ESRI is a world-wide industry leader in GIS software. I'm certain they'll
meet your needs with immediate email responses and solutions <vgb> [REF:
Your _false_ allegations that Extended Systems Inc. doesn't attend to their
users]. They provide a "standard version" of a OCX called Map Objects LT
(lite; aka, standard version). If the user desires/needs more powerful
software, they have to purchase the full version. That sounds strangely
familiar to the third party products included with 2.6.
Sick em! They are in violation of YOUR industry standards for customer
service and software compliance.
I don't honestly recommend that you go after ESRI. I instead intend to make
an example that software companies across the globe provide standard or lite
versions of their software. Call it bait, call it freebie access to standard
features. Call it what you want.
A sincere thanks to the authors who provide it. It is appreciated.
I assume you are a programmer - building software for some market segment.
Do you provide that software free to the users? If not, why not? You want
these 3rd party products provided to your free of charge yet fully featured.
How can you think that is expected? Seriously!
The fact remains, we (VO User family as an entity) are more than using 2.6 -
we love it. You are the exception rather than the rule. The sweaky wheel -
not the main stream.
You have your opinion, and are entitled to such - but your opinion, like
mine, is a singular voice. However, the collective voices of this forum
provide overwhelming evidence that the mainstream users use and are
favorable, supportive and USING 2.6.
Regards,
TT
---
Romans 10:9
ilias
<atth...@btconline.net> wrote:
[...]
>ESRI is a world-wide industry leader in GIS software. I'm certain they'll
[...]
>Your _false_ allegations that Extended Systems Inc. doesn't attend to their
[...]
Why do you write "ESRI" and not "ESI".
Gary Stark
> I assume you are a programmer - building software for some market segment.
Your assumption is incorrect.
He's a troll. Nothing more.
And probably a whole lot less.
--
g.
Gary Stark
gst...@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Lars-Eric Gisslén
Because it's ESRI. http://www.esri.com/
A number of years back the allmost set an international standard for GIS
systems with ArcInfo.
Regards,
Lars-Eric
"ilias" <use...@abeon.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:ost6lv058d0sn1eog...@4ax.com...
ilias
[...]
>There are developers which still use VO25b3 although they have bought
>the VO26 version.
>
>Why?
>
>Simple - because technically VO26 is a regress.
-Not all of the know bugs / issues were fixed.
-Additional bugs / issues were added.
-The Library code (Repository) behaves different
-Codegenerators behave different
-???
Thus migration from VO2.5x to VO2.6 is not as simple and
straightforward as "reload and recompile".
There is no VO2.6 migration guide available, which informs about
critical migration issues.
There is no online-bucktracking-system available, in which migration
issues could be placed in.
GrafX does not report progress / regress, thus a VO-user does not know
about the status of an issue of its interest.
That makes professional developements with VO critical.
ilias
<lars.gisslen@_DelUnderscoreAndBetween_chello.se> wrote:
>Ilias,
>
>"ilias" <use...@abeon.com> skrev i meddelandet
>news:ost6lv058d0sn1eog...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:08:43 -0400, "Tracy Thomas"
>> <atth...@btconline.net> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>> >ESRI is a world-wide industry leader in GIS software. I'm certain they'll
>> [...]
>> >Your _false_ allegations that Extended Systems Inc. doesn't attend to
>their
>> [...]
>>
>> Why do you write "ESRI" and not "ESI".
>
>Because it's ESRI. http://www.esri.com/
I see, my fault.
I was thinking he's talking about ExtendedSystemInc, as we discussed a
few hours earlier:
news://devzone.advantagedatabase.com:119/3F51C094...@abeon.com
>
>A number of years back the allmost set an international standard for GIS
>systems with ArcInfo.
looks very interesting!
>
>Regards,
>Lars-Eric
>>
>>
>>
>
Geoff Schaller
All of the Ilias messages in this thread have been deleted from our
(someone's) server. I can see the repsonses though<g>. I can see the
original header in my browser but they are all deleted and cannot be found
to download. Champagne to the engineer of this situation!
Ginny Caughey
Which news server do you use?
--
Ginny
"Geoff Schaller" <geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> wrote in message
news:oc%4b.78514$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Greg Garza
I'm using CIS.DFN.DE and I appear to have lost Idios's messages in not
only this thread but also in others.
CHEERS,
Greg
Jamie Macleod
--
Composed with Newz Crawler 1.5 http://www.newzcrawler.com/
Ginny Caughey
V-E-R-Y interesting. <g>
--
Ginny
"Jamie Macleod" <bubam...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:xF25b.47853$_5.8...@news1.telusplanet.net...
Ginny Caughey
That is the newsreader I use as well. Thanks.
--
Ginny
"Greg Garza" <gga...@ruddwisdom.com> wrote in message
news:bj2bp9$ei17h$1...@ID-134241.news.uni-berlin.de...
Ed Richard
recent posts (because I was using another server news.freenet.de) and I see
no messages from the one who's name I will not mention anymore.
Ed
"Ginny Caughey" <ginny....@wasteworks.com> wrote in message
news:bj2dvd$e9a8q$1...@ID-144704.news.uni-berlin.de...
Ginny Caughey
Good to hear!
--
Ginny
"Ed Richard" <e.d.Richard_No@Spam_Chello.nl> wrote in message
news:Ed35b.1558$P51.4947@amstwist00...
Willie Moore
tests to confirm that they were still working. Maybe we should check our
coding standards <g>.
"ilias" <use...@abeon.com> wrote in message
news:jmq8lvs8j5d6u3gic...@4ax.com...
Guenther Stiewi
wrote:
>hmmm. My apps pretty much just recompiled and were good. I did regression
>tests to confirm that they were still working. Maybe we should check our
>coding standards <g>.
You mean: if it works, something went wrong?
Hmm, interesting approach, let me think about that....
:-))
Joze Stensak
"Geoff Schaller" <geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> wrote in message
news:oc%4b.78514$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Markus Feser
>
the end of the awful nonsense <g>
Markus Feser
Geoff Schaller
It is operated by Telstra but how it links to the originating servers I have
no idea.
"Ginny Caughey" <ginny....@wasteworks.com> wrote in message
news:bj26ri$egnqo$1...@ID-144704.news.uni-berlin.de...
Geoff Schaller
cost us distractions and misinformations, anger and angst. It was malicious,
though mildly so, but that gives the community the right to pass sentence.
Why else do we have laws and prisons?
"Joze Stensak" <upd...@driversplanet.com> wrote in message
news:s9i5b.2069$2B6.4...@news.siol.net...
Paul De Bie
Could you possible be talking about The Artist Formerly Known As Prince?
Paul
"Geoff Schaller" <geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> schreef in bericht
news:U9k5b.80076$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Joze Stensak
Probbably you know for this story where, one dog clicking away at a computer
says to another dog: "I love the Internet - nobody knows you're a dog." :-)
http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html
http://users.snowcrest.net/cafemocha/images/dogchat.gif
"Geoff Schaller" <geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> wrote in message
news:U9k5b.80076$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Ginny Caughey
Looks like a global gift then. <g>
--
Ginny
"Geoff Schaller" <geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> wrote in message
news:X6k5b.80070$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Gary Stark
Joze Stensak wrote:
> Probbably you know for this story where, one dog clicking away at a computer
> says to another dog: "I love the Internet - nobody knows you're a dog." :-)
>
> http://www.unc.edu/depts/jomc/academics/dri/idog.html
> http://users.snowcrest.net/cafemocha/images/dogchat.gif
>
http://jerseyguy.com/baddog.html
Willie Moore
I guess I didnt state that correctly <g>.
Whenever I bring in a new version of the compiler, or make a major change,
I have a regression test that stresses parts of the app. That way I know
that I am getting correct results for a given input. For example, when I
migrated from VO2 to VO 2.5, my apps compiled and loaded after some initial
tweaking. but when I ran my regression tests, I started getting 5333s in
lower screens. Found some things down there that I needed to correct. But,
at a quick glance, the app looked like it worked.
Regards,
Willie
"Guenther Stiewi" <ssttii...@aattttgglloobbaal.nneett> wrote in message
news:osealvs26mhsn9ckp...@4ax.com...
Guenther Stiewi
wrote:
>Ok,
>
>I guess I didnt state that correctly <g>.
I understood you all right, I just couldn't resist picking on that statement
(been too long in the same office with Gary Stark, ya know. That guy needs to
be quarantined).
Gary Stark
Guenther Stiewi wrote:
And after four and a half years' absence, it's clear there's no cure. :)
Uwe Holz
> Is this the end of free speech ? >
it looks like, unfortunately.
To delete somebody's messages is criminal IMHO. It probably works like SPAM:
Just fake somebody's email and fool his mail (news) server in order to use
it as a SPAM relay (SMTP) or to manipulate the postings of the e-mail's
owner (NNTP).
If this is the case (and I am pretty sure it went that way) I see a
violation of basic rules of the internet. I am sad to observe it here in
this NG, because it is anarchy, nothing else.
Uwe
Gary Stark
Uwe Holz wrote:
> Hi Joze,
>
> > Is this the end of free speech ? >
>
> it looks like, unfortunately.
No. I see it as the return of free speech.
I think that we need to consider what the actions of a troll, intent on
hijacking the newsgroup for whatever the troll's purposes might be, amount to?
I'm not for a moment suggesting that illegal actions should be encouraged or
condoned. We should not forget though that in this case the troll has been asked
nicely, on many occassions and by many different individuals, to cease his
errant behaviour.
Rather than correct his ways, he has seen fit to issue onslaught after onslaught
into this group, with neither apology nor explanation. He has been rude, he has
insulted those who have seen fit to offer him help, he has been arrogant and
abrasive and has posted mis-information beyond anything that one could consider
reasonable.
I don't believe that his right to free speech is any greater than the rights of
others.
Importantly, if those of us here wish to have a group conversation free of his
intervention, he needs to learn that this is our right, and he must respect our
rights in that regard.
In this regard, I also believe that it is the expressed wish of most people in
this group that they do wish to participate in that group discussion without the
participation, intervention, or interruption of the troll.
It is therefore high time that the troll started to observe and respect those
wishes of the group and either
1: immediately correct his errant behaviour,
or
2: stop posting to this group.
I see this as being little different from the burglar who breaks into your home
intent upon stealing your belongings, but gets bitten by your watchdog. The
burglar is not a victim. Neither is the troll. While the act of cancelling his
messages is neither pretty, nor supported nor condoned, I have no sympathy for
the troll when the actions taken on the troll are due entirely to the actions
instigated by that troll.
It is only when he accepts responsibility for his own continued errant actions
that things will return to normalcy.
Geoff Schaller
(...anyway, wasn't Prince hatched?)
"Paul De Bie" <paul....@CLEARTHIShnt.be> wrote in message
news:3f55efd0$0$8573$ba62...@reader0.news.skynet.be...
Geoff Schaller
So how do we counter misinformation? Any attempt at response just draws a
continuing flood of misinformations.
You are right in the sense that our attempts to deny the troll access also
amounts to censorship but I wonder if sometimes that it does have a place.
After all, none of us in any country are truly free to do anything we
please.
Geoff
Bob Arnold
> Uwe,
>
> So how do we counter misinformation? Any attempt at response just draws a
> continuing flood of misinformations.
Any attempt? Ilias expressed profound thanks for Rod's responses. That
evidences something other than the total lack of insight and character of
which he has been so roundly (and perfunctorarily) accused for the last
couple of weeks. I don't like his style but, to this point, I think less of
the prosecution's (which I'm tempted to characterise as snide). Maybe I've
missed too much of what has transpired. But if it to coming to locking him,
or anyone else, out of the group I want to see any tomato accompanied by
some proof of what Ilias has supposedly done. If it's not coming to that,
then I'd rather ignore the whole squabble. That's what's been flooding the
group.
> You are right in the sense that our attempts to deny the troll access also
> amounts to censorship but I wonder if sometimes that it does have a place.
Then stop wondering, Geoff. It just doesn't.
> After all, none of us in any country are truly free to do anything we
> please.
We're talking about speech, not "anything ..."
Sorry no time
To pit this in rhyme,
Bob Arnold
George Razutov
>
This is a great new step towards the ideals of Free speach and highest
forms of Democracy.
The only problem is that this action was made in some non-organized
anarchical manner and thus it could probably offend the people who
didn't expect something like that. In order to avoid negative
after-effects of similar actions in the future, some institutions
should be added to VO community.
First of all, special Police should be established in VO newsgroup --
as someone proposed already in other threads. It will be exclusively
responsible for rank cleaning, revelation of hidden Public enemies in
VO community and execution of all the necessary actions against them.
Consider calling it "Gestapo" -- a well known organization with
similar functions.
Secondly, VO Newsgroup definitely needs its own Gruppenfuhrer. There
are too many different opinions now in NG, and many people don't even
know what they must think. Gruppenfuhrer will finally bring the
necessary like-mindedness into the community. He will determine the
Only True Opinion, and after that everyone shall be able to express
this opinion everywhere absolutely free without any limits -- this is
the ideal Free speach and democracy. Gruppenfuhrer will also explain
where different kinds of Public enemies (Trolls, Idiots, Silly asses
etc.) can be found and what to do with each of them. Gestapo will
report to him.
Gruppenfuhrer is the Great Leader of VO community and leads it
directly towards the Brightful Future. So he must be chosen among the
most respectable and well known people. Consider... (oh sorry, he died
58 years ago, and he probably didn't know VO -- maybe, Clipper only).
Well, some other worthy candidates could be found here in NG.
These steps will greatly improve and close the ranks of VO community.
The community will get rid of all the damned dissidents (all of them
will be imprisoned into VB conference for 5-10 years). As a result,
the Newbies will become extremely happy, when they will finally
appear. Thousands of them are sitting now, waiting for the New Order
established in VO community.
George Razutov
Gary Stark
Bob Arnold wrote:
> "Geoff Schaller" <geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> wrote in message
> news:f4v5b.81535$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > Uwe,
> >
> > So how do we counter misinformation? Any attempt at response just draws a
> > continuing flood of misinformations.
>
> Any attempt? Ilias expressed profound thanks for Rod's responses. That
> evidences something other than the total lack of insight and character of
> which he has been so roundly (and perfunctorarily) accused for the last
> couple of weeks.
You appear to have missed quite a bit then.
The troll has been caught exacting his excruciating misbehaviour on other
newsgroups as well.
Others have offered him help, and rather than get some thanks (not that it's
been asked for) they've been attacked by the troll with a vitriole rarely seen,
because he felt that help offerred didn't go quite as far as he would have liked
it to.
His behaviour is offensive in the extreme, and while I might not support the
methods employed, I have to also aske what the difference might be were this a
moderated newsgroup. If this were such a group, I feel that the troll would have
been effectively exluded from participation quite some time ago.
> or anyone else, out of the group I want to see any tomato accompanied by
> some proof of what Ilias has supposedly done. If it's not coming to that,
Please go back and review the archives.
Maybe you should look at his most postings over the last week or two, within the
context of the troll FAQ. http://digital.net/~gandalf/trollfaq.html
Consider this ...
=====================
From the Jargon file ( http://www.cnam.fr/Jargon/jargon.html?1849 ):
troll v.,n.
1. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet
designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself.
Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from
mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a
likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces
lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they
already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is
in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on
it. See also YHBT.
2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious
arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in
email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls
are
recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the
topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures
they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such,
they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him,
he's just a troll." Compare kook.
3. [Berkeley] Computer lab monitor. A popular campus job for CS students. Duties
include helping newbies and ensuring that lab policies are followed. Probably
so-called because it involves lurking in dark cavelike corners.
=====================
Look particularly at item 2 within this definition. "regularly posts specious
arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in
email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion.". His
arguments appear to be specious in the extreme. They appear to have no purpose
other than to flame, annoy or disrupt a discussion.
The troll has no real technical knowledge of VO, and that, in and of itself, is
not a problem. By all means, ask questions and seek information.
But his posting of irrelevant and obscure references to discussions of days long
past, that bear no reference to current discussions, and simply disparage other
parties within the group, are clearly trolls within the sense of the above
definition.
As such, I would contend that those postings of his are completely outside the
charter of the newsgroup.
It should also be noted that the troll has been asked onmore than one occasion
to slef-moderate his behaviour. He steadfastly refuses to do so, and thus
continues to disrupt the quiet enjoyment by others of this newsgroup. Yes, he
has his rights, but they do not, should not, and must not subvert the rights of
others to their enjoyment of the newsgroup free from his unwanted and
unasked-for interference.
> > You are right in the sense that our attempts to deny the troll access also
> > amounts to censorship but I wonder if sometimes that it does have a place.
>
> Then stop wondering, Geoff. It just doesn't.
Censorship, or moderation?
I would prefer to have an unmoderated group, but quite frankly, when we have an
out of control incluence such as this troll, I am fully in support of migrating
this newsgroup to one that is lightly moderated.
Gary Stark
Excellent post, but you forgot one important point.
The Gruppenfuhrer would also need to arrange for the burning of all VO manuals.
:)
George Razutov wrote:
--
Mark L. Cooper
My take on the situation is the purpose of this newsgroup is to be a forum
for:
1. The posting of VO coding related technical questions of any experience
level. With a fairly high expectation (but not a right) of getting multiple
solutions.
2. The posting of solutions to VO problems that may help others.
3. The posting of VO community news (Devcons, User group meetings, new
utilities (free or otherwise), etc)
4. The posting of requests for general guidence and/or theory, as it
pertains to VO programming mainly, but also ancillary areas such as hardware
platforms, business models, operating systems, etc. as long as it doesn't
take up too much bandwidth. 'Too much' to be determined by the community
members.
I would not like a forum that is so dry and technical that it becomes boring
or a chore to read. I look forward to browsing this ng while sipping my
first cup of coffee in the morning. I have also gotten tremendous help from
many members here.
It's unfortunate that someone comes along once in a while that hasn't
learned to 'get along' or 'doesn't play nicely with others.' There are
others on this ng that may be noted for their somewhat 'caustic'<g>
personalities or for their different perspectives, but they also provide an
overwhelming amount of good support.
If all a person does is make inflammatory posts without any counterbalancing
positive help, and if they don't respond to various requests to get along,
then I have no problem with encouraging them to move along!
If I was throwing a big party I would not hesitate to extend an open
invitation to everyone on this ng just to get to meet you. Except for one
person. Who, judging from his participation in other ng's before this one,
is undoubtedly stirring up trouble elsewhere.
Mark
--
Mark L. Cooper
Columbus, Ohio USA
Mark L. Cooper
>
> The Gruppenfuhrer would also need to arrange for the burning of all VO
manuals.
>
> :)
What's a VO manual? I didn't get a manual! I think CA must have screwed up
again. I have my dBase III+ manuals, my Summer 87 and 5.0 manuals, my GetIt
manual. But no VO manual. Who can I report this to?? Tell me!! Huh! I want
to know right now! This is not right!
<BG>
Mark
--
Mark L. Cooper
Columbus, Ohio USA
>
>
>
Phil McGuinness
Yes.. still on shelve. Rather useless these days but shows my heritage.
Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
--------
Gary Stark
Phil McGuinness wrote:
> snip[ Ah the old dBase III+ manuals, ]
>
> Yes.. still on shelve. Rather useless these days but shows my heritage.
Or absence thereof.
:)
Paul De Bie
day off he did not want to be called Prince anymore. So he choose some
unpronouncible "sign" (which I can type here because it's on nobodies
keyboard) to be his new name and started a war against anyone (the press
and media) who still dared to write/speak/mention the name "Prince". The
press of course quickly named him The Artist Formerly Known As Prince to
avoid any legal consequences.
So in our case The One Whose Name I Cannot Mention is in fact The Troll
Formerly Known As Ilias
Paul
"Geoff Schaller" <geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> schreef in bericht
news:F1v5b.81530$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Paul De Bie
"George Razutov" <el...@dialup.ptt.ru> schreef in bericht
news:178f3208.03090...@posting.google.com...
Bob Arnold
> Bob Arnold wrote:
>
>> Ilias expressed profound thanks for Rod's responses. That
> > evidences something other than the total lack of insight and character
of
> > which he has been so roundly (and perfunctorarily) accused for the last
> > couple of weeks.
>
> You appear to have missed quite a bit then.
Yes. But you're not telling me what.
>
> The troll has been caught exacting his excruciating misbehaviour on other
> newsgroups as well.
An example would be worth 1000 more assurances to the same effect.
> Others have offered him help, and rather than get some thanks (not that
it's
> been asked for) they've been attacked by the troll with a vitriole rarely
seen,
Is this hyperbole (one has to expect that of Australians, after all), or can
it be substantiated?
> because he felt that help offerred didn't go quite as far as he would have
liked
> it to.
>
> His behaviour is offensive in the extreme, and while I might not support
the
> methods employed, I have to also aske what the difference might be were
this a
> moderated newsgroup. If this were such a group, I feel that the troll
would have
> been effectively exluded from participation quite some time ago.
That doesn't make it the most mature way to handle matters. Prima facie,
I'd resist moderation till I was hoarse.
> > or anyone else, out of the group I want to see any tomato accompanied by
> > some proof of what Ilias has supposedly done. If it's not coming to
that,
>
> Please go back and review the archives.
I did a little of this ... not comprehensive but it consumed more time than
I'd like. And it did turn up Ilias' thanks to Rod. That was richly
deserved, of course. So maybe he had to give it simply to preserve his
cover. But maybe that's the type of answer he needs and his perceived
rudeness, on other occasions, reflects his impatience at not receiving them
more often (remembering that his command of English is far from complete).
In that case his manners need improving ... nothing would serve him better,
in fact ... but it doesn't make him a troll.
>
> Maybe you should look at his most postings over the last week or two,
within the
> context of the troll FAQ. http://digital.net/~gandalf/trollfaq.html
Since the attack on him gained force, I'd expect him to have something rude
to say somewhere in there, whether he was innocent or guilty. I'd be
grateful if someone would cite the Original Sin.
>
> Consider this ...
>
> =====================
> From the Jargon file ( http://www.cnam.fr/Jargon/jargon.html?1849 ):
>
> troll v.,n.
>
> 1. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet
> designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself.
> Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from
> mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through
a
> likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that
induces
> lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless
than they
> already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that
it is
> in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be
in on
> it. See also YHBT.
It may be too late for me then, eh <g>
But seriously, that's the flimsiest proposal of a significant cast that
I've seen all year. If I picked that paragraph to bits, you'd see nothing
but atoms.
>
> 2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts
specious
> arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or
in
> email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion.
Trolls
> are
> recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about
the
> topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly
creatures
> they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as
such,
> they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore
him,
> he's just a troll." Compare kook.
I've cited a redeeming action. So does that discount him ... make him
"unrecognisable by the fact" ... or is this "definition" just some
overweening arts thesis trying to sound like a theory? Surely if Rod had
reduced a true troll to professing gratitude for his response then the
humiliation of Ilias would be as complete as it could get? The very idea
gets me chuckling!!
What's the distinction?
>
> I would prefer to have an unmoderated group, but quite frankly, when we
have an
> out of control incluence such as this troll, I am fully in support of
migrating
> this newsgroup to one that is lightly moderated.
If you're right about Ilias using issues which are no longer germaine to the
group then it's not going to be long before he runs out of ammunition. The
thorough canvassing of technical issues is a hallmark of the NG, after all.
I'm sorry if he upsets members as valued as you are, yourself. But I rarely
noticed him until the recent focus on his motives became an issue. Maybe
I'm unrepresentative. But, as stated, I'd resist any form of moderation ...
power corrupts, and all that.
Cheers,
Bob Arnold
Michael Zech
I disagree with you. Ilias has never used personal insults ( like Idiot,
Silly ass, ...) in his messages but he has been flamed with this by others.
As the person of his provider stated earlier, there were not violation of
the rules. The opinion in a post is free, regardless if it's true or not,
regardless if the questions are asked persistantly several times.
What has happened in a moderated forum? Nothing like, that has happened
here! I was a moderator of the German Clipper and VO forums at Compuserve
and others over years. We had several similar cases with people persistantly
asking critical questions, we don't like to hear. You surely remember, when
all the people were waiting for Clipper 5 or VO 1.
The best way to handle such situations is to answer in the same persistantly
the questions or to ignore this guy (which is here with the killfile option
much easier than in the past with CIS). If somebody posts messages, that are
ignored by the majority of the members it's obviciously irrelevant and not
interesting. If this doesn't work, ok than it's obviciously a thread that
need to be discussed.
Locking and deleting messages can never be an option, because of the results
you can see here: thousands of messages dealing with this OT and a extreme
negative picture of the (visible) community or should I better say cult.
Regards,
Michael Zech
"Gary Stark" <nom3...@RedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message
news:3F56958A...@RedbacksWeb.com...
Gary Stark
Bob Arnold wrote:
> Gary,
>
> > Bob Arnold wrote:
> >
> >> Ilias expressed profound thanks for Rod's responses. That
> > > evidences something other than the total lack of insight and character
> of
> > > which he has been so roundly (and perfunctorarily) accused for the last
> > > couple of weeks.
> >
> > You appear to have missed quite a bit then.
>
> Yes. But you're not telling me what.
With respect, it's been quoted here many times, and it is in the archives. I'm
not prepared to dig up too many of his turds; he takes up far more time and
effort than he is worth. If you do a google search on the troll's name, you'll
find all manner of things.
Here's a couple
Note the style of posting in the lisp/smalltalk groups and compare it with those
of this group's troll. The style, and the abrasiveness, along with the name are
far too similar to merely be coincidence.
Please remember that the troll, by virtue of his attitude and comments, must be
a noted VO expert. With all of 4 months of VO under his belt! No knowledge or
appreciation of the history of the product. No instight or knowledge whatsoever
of the agreement that Brian negotiated with CA. Those minor details don't seem
to bother him at all.
> > The troll has been caught exacting his excruciating misbehaviour on other
> > newsgroups as well.
>
> An example would be worth 1000 more assurances to the same effect.
See above.
> > Others have offered him help, and rather than get some thanks (not that
> it's
> > been asked for) they've been attacked by the troll with a vitriole rarely
> seen,
>
> Is this hyperbole (one has to expect that of Australians, after all), or can
> it be substantiated?
Substantiated, and a number of times. He has done this to a number of users
here; why do you think that so many people here dislike him so? We can deal
with how he says what he says; it it precisely the content of his messages that
are so offensive.
Again, please see the references above, and just do a search in Google. Ask
Frans what he thinks of the troll.
> > because he felt that help offerred didn't go quite as far as he would have
> liked
> > it to.
> >
> > His behaviour is offensive in the extreme, and while I might not support
> the
> > methods employed, I have to also aske what the difference might be were
> this a
> > moderated newsgroup. If this were such a group, I feel that the troll
> would have
> > been effectively exluded from participation quite some time ago.
>
> That doesn't make it the most mature way to handle matters. Prima facie,
> I'd resist moderation till I was hoarse.
I agree.
And now we're hoarse.
> > > or anyone else, out of the group I want to see any tomato accompanied by
> > > some proof of what Ilias has supposedly done. If it's not coming to
> that,
> >
> > Please go back and review the archives.
>
> I did a little of this ... not comprehensive but it consumed more time than
> I'd like. And it did turn up Ilias' thanks to Rod. That was richly
> deserved, of course. So maybe he had to give it simply to preserve his
> cover. But maybe that's the type of answer he needs and his perceived
> rudeness, on other occasions, reflects his impatience at not receiving them
> more often (remembering that his command of English is far from complete).
In fact we have asked exactly this question, and suggested exactly that as a
possibility for his abrasiveness. Unfortunately, he chose to reject that olive
branch.
> In that case his manners need improving ... nothing would serve him better,
> in fact ... but it doesn't make him a troll.
Were it just bad manners, I'd agree.
Sadly his behaviour extends far beyond mere bad manners, though. Examine the
examples. Impatience. Rudeness. He refuses to accept that people are offerring
their help here freely and from their own good will. If the "service" fails to
meet his demands, he will attempt to publicly belittle and berate you. If you
have a life away from your pc - such as perhaps wishing to spend time with your
family - but he would like something done, then watch out!
His recent tirade agains ADS was completely unprovoked and out of order. He
knows little of their involvement with VO and less of what efforts they are
making with Brian wrt to upcoming product releases, yet he chooses to attack
them. Why ? This is trolling of the lowest order, I'm afraid.
> >
> > Maybe you should look at his most postings over the last week or two,
> within the
> > context of the troll FAQ. http://digital.net/~gandalf/trollfaq.html
>
> Since the attack on him gained force, I'd expect him to have something rude
> to say somewhere in there, whether he was innocent or guilty. I'd be
> grateful if someone would cite the Original Sin.
See the references above. There is no one original sin. Just a very quick build
up of messages from him offending almost everyone in this group.
> > From the Jargon file ( http://www.cnam.fr/Jargon/jargon.html?1849 ):
> >
> > troll v.,n.
> >
> > 1. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet
> > designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself.
> But seriously, that's the flimsiest proposal of a significant cast that
> I've seen all year. If I picked that paragraph to bits, you'd see nothing
> but atoms.
I agree. I specifically made a reference to item 2; items 1 and 3 were only
included for completeness of the quote. Item 2 describes his behaviour
perfectly.
> > 2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts
> specious
> > arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or
> in
> > email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion.
> Trolls
> > are
> > recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about
> the
> > topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly
> creatures
> > they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as
> such,
> > they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore
> him,
> > he's just a troll." Compare kook.
>
> I've cited a redeeming action. So does that discount him ... make him
Not at all. His behaviour, by and large, seems to be in no way acceptable to
this group. This is not simply me speaking, but you will find that an
overwhelming number of people here have killfiled him. Ask yourself why is this
the case?
> "unrecognisable by the fact" ... or is this "definition" just some
> overweening arts thesis trying to sound like a theory? Surely if Rod had
Rod is an exceedingly clever, intelligent, patient, and nice person.
He doesn't seem to see failings in too many people, and I almost envy him for
this quality.
> > >
> > > Then stop wondering, Geoff. It just doesn't.
> >
> > Censorship, or moderation?
>
> What's the distinction?
I'm not sure that I know. I believe that we should each be self-moderating our
posts, and by and large, that seems to happen. But the troll has steadfastly
refused any and all requests to self-moderate his posts, and has offended almost
everyone here over the four months or so since he decided to inflict himself
upon us.
> >
> > I would prefer to have an unmoderated group, but quite frankly, when we
> have an
> > out of control incluence such as this troll, I am fully in support of
> migrating
> > this newsgroup to one that is lightly moderated.
>
> If you're right about Ilias using issues which are no longer germaine to the
> group then it's not going to be long before he runs out of ammunition. The
I wish.
He contiually rehashes the same tired old google posts over and over and over
and over ....
The problem is that he is posting misinformation and rubbish, and because there
are new readers here from time to time, his misrepresentations need to be
countered.
> thorough canvassing of technical issues is a hallmark of the NG, after all.
Thorough canvassing of technical issues is great, and I support that. The vast
majority of the troll's posts bear little relationship to technical issues
though. He has no apparent technical skills, and has contributed nothing to this
community. he has no grounding, and no strengths from which to speak. Despite
his weaknesses, he fails to listen to offers of help.
Gary Stark
Michael Zech wrote:
> Gary,
>
> I disagree with you. Ilias has never used personal insults ( like Idiot,
You're quite free to disagree with me, but please have a look at some of the
references I've just posted in another message, and please do your research on
this most unpleasant individual. He bites the hand that feeds him.
> As the person of his provider stated earlier, there were not violation of
> the rules.
Actually, I believe that person was not correct. Again, look at the charter for
the newsgroup, and examine closely the content of his postings. Those postings
are mostly of no technical merit, and thus fall outside the scope of the
charter.
> The opinion in a post is free, regardless if it's true or not,
Not when it misquotes facts, or incites flamewars.
> What has happened in a moderated forum? Nothing like, that has happened
> here! I was a moderator of the German Clipper and VO forums at Compuserve
> and others over years. We had several similar cases with people persistantly
> asking critical questions, we don't like to hear. You surely remember, when
> all the people were waiting for Clipper 5 or VO 1.
I have no problem with unpleasant questions. Indeed, please ask Brian about some
of the questions I asked him in the early 90's while I was working in
California. I personaly welcome difficult questions - they make me think and do
the research neccessary to obtain the answers.
The questions posed by the troll are not those sorts of questions. Rather, he
misquotes one thing, puts it with something else (of which he has no
understanding whatsoever) and comes out with something totally preposterous.
Look at his misguided statements regarding Grafx's management of VO: he is not a
party to the agreement, has no knowledge of the terms, but has professed that
Brian has done everything wrong. When we have tried to gently point out to him
that he isn;t aware of the details, he has simply ignored the facts and carried
on regardless.
> The best way to handle such situations is to answer in the same persistantly
> the questions or to ignore this guy (which is here with the killfile option
> much easier than in the past with CIS). If somebody posts messages, that are
As I've already stated, the killfile fails when others respond to his postings.
I'm hesitant to place those respondents in my killfile too, but that is the next
step down that path.
Ignoring him doesn't seem to work; he posts his nusiance messages regardless.
> ignored by the majority of the members it's obviciously irrelevant and not
> interesting. If this doesn't work, ok than it's obviciously a thread that
> need to be discussed.
That's why we're having this discussion.
He has been a disruptive influence here for around four months. He has been
asked to self moderate several times this period and he has refused. He has been
shown that many of the details in his posts are incorrect. he has refused to
accept that guidance. He refuses to accept that help is givene here freely by
those who have the time and inclination - when that time and inclination is not
to his express liking, he has attacked those who have helped him.
His behaviour is typical of a troll. His behaviour is anti social. Again, that
is why we're having this discussion.
> Locking and deleting messages can never be an option, because of the results
> you can see here: thousands of messages dealing with this OT and a extreme
> negative picture of the (visible) community or should I better say cult.
I would personally prefer to see him behave in a more acceptable manner. He has
failed to respond to repeated requests from many quarters to do so. I believe
that, unpleasant as it is, he is not worthy of our time and efforts; he needs to
be banned from this environment.
Geoff Schaller
I think that you have missed quite a lot and in fact if you go back and
re-read the whole thread with Rod you will find it a lot less warm and
cuddly. Ilias was quite self-serving although, like many of his posts, the
thread did have a serious side. His challenge to Rod almost amounted to
demanding that Rod pay him to test his product???? The platitudes he raised
were not consistent with his other approaches and do not diminish the nature
of misinformation spread elsewhere.
The fun been's had and the party is over. Ilias is back. Let's see what
happens....
Geoff
Michael Zech
"Gary Stark" <nom3...@RedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message
news:3F5706E2...@RedbacksWeb.com...
> Micahel,
>
> Michael Zech wrote:
>
> > Gary,
> >
> > I disagree with you. Ilias has never used personal insults ( like Idiot,
>
> You're quite free to disagree with me, but please have a look at some of
the
> references I've just posted in another message, and please do your
research on
> this most unpleasant individual. He bites the hand that feeds him.
>
>
> > As the person of his provider stated earlier, there were not violation
of
> > the rules.
>
> Actually, I believe that person was not correct. Again, look at the
charter for
> the newsgroup, and examine closely the content of his postings. Those
postings
> are mostly of no technical merit, and thus fall outside the scope of the
> charter.
>
>
>
> > The opinion in a post is free, regardless if it's true or not,
>
> Not when it misquotes facts, or incites flamewars.
In free and democracy world everybody has the right to tell things, that are
not true or wrong, as well as everybody who feels that something is wrong
can correct him. In the case of a defamation, the damaged person can sue the
initiator at court, who will decide what's right. Selfjustice is not the
solution. This is how this kind of things works in real life.
You can not convince everbody of everything, but who cares? Assumes someone
is really as bad as you said, where is the problem? Ignore him, each message
speaks for itself and falls back to the initiator. And further assumed
someone is driven by the bad intention to damage VO and the community, with
using self justice the only result you get is a martyr and a very negative
picture of the people who stands for the selfjustice, even if they may be
right.
How this ends has George Razutov described in his brilliant comments.
>
>
> --
> g.
> Gary Stark
> gst...@RedbacksWeb.com
> http://RedbacksWeb.com
>
>
Regards,
Michael
Mark L. Cooper
>
> In free and democracy world everybody has the right to tell things, that
are
> not true or wrong, as well as everybody who feels that something is wrong
> can correct him. In the case of a defamation, the damaged person can sue
the
> initiator at court, who will decide what's right. Selfjustice is not the
> solution. This is how this kind of things works in real life.
>
Might I liken the Internet as a whole, and this newsgroup in particular to
the frontier days of the American west. There was no ruling authority. There
was no readily available court system. This might also apply to the early
days in Oz, but I've not read about Australian history. Yet.
Neighbors got together and defended themselves. In many cases, when a
disruptive person came to a community and started antagonizing the locals,
they would decide for themselves what should be done. Sometimes they would
run the miscreant out of town.
Until this group becomes moderated (I'm not making a suggestion), frontier
justice rules. If enough prominent locals become incensed, beware the person
causing the ruckus.
Michael Zech
but the frontier days have gone and I'm still under the impression that the
VO community is in the 21st century (even if the compiler comes from the
last century :-) ). And a denial of service (message) attack is in the
meanwhile an illegal act in the most countries.
Regards,
Michael
"Mark L. Cooper" <mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bj7bmb$f6t46$1...@ID-147466.news.uni-berlin.de...
Ed Ratcliffe
I believe that a check of google archives will show that I was among the
first (if not the first) to identify Ilias as a problem across the entire
programing usernet. I have choosen to totally ignore any posting from or
about Ilias until this one. I feel this is still the best way to handle him.
If we as a group become a pond in which his stones are unable create a
ripple he will tire and leave.
Ed
Mark L. Cooper
> but the frontier days have gone and I'm still under the impression that
the
> VO community is in the 21st century (even if the compiler comes from the
I disagree. I believe the Internet is still in it's infancy. I think it is
still frontier days on the Internet.
It will change and evolve. We'll probably have something on the order of
'Internet Tribunals' to deal with misconduct.
We already have 'data pirates.' As more and more people/companies come to
depend on the Internet for their livelyhood we will have to come up with a
way to 'police' it. And sanction those that mis-behave.
I'm sure a good sci-fi writer could come up with a reasonable vision of what
the Internet will look like in 20 years. I don't see it remaining as 'free'
as it is currently. I'm not talking monetary 'free,' but free to do/say
anything you like without consequences. Look how 'crackers' are now getting
caught and prosecuted.
Mark
--
Mark L. Cooper
Columbus, Ohio USA
Will Chapman
| malicious, though mildly so, but that gives the community the right
| to pass sentence. Why else do we have laws and prisons?
Hhmm. In our community we have judges and juries to decide
such matters. I don't remember anyone even asking the VO
community whether they wanted to take such a contraversial
step.
IMO the way to handle trolls is to ignore them. And that means
not responding to any reference to them in other's posts as well
as placing them on one's kill-list.
Seriously,
Will Chapman
Geoff Schaller
As I was not involved in the "controversial" step, I can only guess at the
motives but I think you will find widespread support for the move. My guess
is that the intention was to indicate to Ilias a depth of despair then I
support the move. It was done and has now stopped and I now also support
giving Ilias a second chance. However, should he continue on as before then
I would consider asking his ISP to censure him also.
Kill-listing is not of its own, sufficient. There are many people out there
who just read. Their experience is limited and often, their use of English
limited to the point where they are uncomfortable becoming involved. We all
have different opinions for sure and neither are all of us right all the
time but Ilias was different. His contributions were negative, factually
flawed and involved a twisted logic at best. From the nature of his replies,
his location and a few other facts now known, it has been deduced that he is
involved with others who are equally negative toward VO. It is clear the
intent was to disrupt.
I hope it stops. I have invited Ilias to meet and speak with us as I am
happy to mend fences if it is possible. We will see if 'Ilias' will take up
the challenge.
Geoff
"Will Chapman" <qbu...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:bj7qb5$ftf6d$1...@ID-169860.news.uni-berlin.de...
Michael Zech
you have probably right with your future outlook and it's a subject that
have a lot of different facets, positive and negative. And I'm sure that
will see a lot of suggestions, idea and discussion regarding it - but here
it would probably blow up the group or us :-)
Michael
"Mark L. Cooper" <mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bj7p3e$funhv$1...@ID-147466.news.uni-berlin.de...
Mark L. Cooper
As has been previously stated in another thread, a lot of bandwidth would be
wasted in the process of trying to sort things out.
I suspect the 20/80 rule holds true here: 20% of the members contribute 80%
of the volume. So, we really haven't heard from 80% of the members on this
issue.
Do we want to set up a formal process to 'discipline' a 'recalcitrant'
member? This is rhetorical on my part.
If people think this ng is a democracy (with all that entails), then we
should have formal rules of behavior with sanctions for misbehavior.
But, if this ng is an anarchy (
http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secA1.html#seca11 ), then someone that suffers
the consequences of his/her actions cannot go crying to a 'ruling authority'
because such a concept is foreign to anarchy.
Michael Zech
"Mark L. Cooper" <mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bja6hc$gljnn$1...@ID-147466.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Michael,
>
> As has been previously stated in another thread, a lot of bandwidth would
be
> wasted in the process of trying to sort things out.
>
> I suspect the 20/80 rule holds true here: 20% of the members contribute
80%
> of the volume. So, we really haven't heard from 80% of the members on this
> issue.
>
Agree, but this is normal for the most forums. Unfortunately you never
really know how the numbers of the silences are.
> Do we want to set up a formal process to 'discipline' a 'recalcitrant'
> member? This is rhetorical on my part.
>
> If people think this ng is a democracy (with all that entails), then we
> should have formal rules of behavior with sanctions for misbehavior.
>
> But, if this ng is an anarchy (
> http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secA1.html#seca11 ), then someone that suffers
> the consequences of his/her actions cannot go crying to a 'ruling
authority'
> because such a concept is foreign to anarchy.
>
In my opinion the best should be in the middle of both. I agree with you,
formal rules will probably not practical in the usenet. But otherwise
complete anarchy, that allows deleting messages, would also allow unlimited
trolling.
In my opinion it's much better to use common sense ( this should include
everybody ). This NG ist the only public forum, that is available global and
it's the visiting card for VO and the community. Seeing everybody in this
NG as potentiell customer or promoter of this product, is the best way of
advertising it and it's free. Of course you will have people in this forum
with the intention to blame VO and the community. Confronting them with
factually answers and ignoring them if they continuing blaming, will give
everybody the proper picture of the situation. OK, this need sometimes a lot
of patience and strong nerves, but nobody can damage the reputation of VO,
if he will be answered as described above and than ignored. His messages
will speak for themselves.
> Mark
>
> --
> Mark L. Cooper
> Columbus, Ohio USA
>
>
Michael
Mark L. Cooper
>
> In my opinion it's much better to use common sense ( this should include
> everybody ).
Exactly. Unfortunately common sense seems to be in short supply these
days<g>.
>Confronting them with
> factually answers and ignoring them if they continuing blaming, will give
>everybody the proper picture of the situation.
Yep. I agree. Silliness is obvious when nobody responds.
> OK, this need sometimes a lot
> of patience and strong nerves, but nobody can damage the reputation of VO,
> if he will be answered as described above and than ignored. His messages
> will speak for themselves.
Right again. Patience, strong nerves, and a sense of what is really
important. One person cannot damage VO or this ng unless we let him/her
change the way we go about our business. I have never met anyone on this
newsgroup. I have never been to a Devcon, user group meeting, or any other
VO related event. But from reading this ng for a year I know who's answer to
believe, who's to take with scepticism, and who's not to even pay attention
to. I know there are those with a really good heart (and a wealth of good
information!) beneath all their bluster and bombast. There are some that
only provide short, quick, and accurate responses. No muss, no fuss.
This ng is like a good magazine: there are nitty-gritty technical articles.
There's the humor columns. There's community news and announcements. There's
world news. The travel column. The food and wine column. Etc, etc. Every
once in a while we get some Gary Larsen and the 'Far Side.' It just doesn't
get any better than this. And its free! I've been side-tracked from VO
coding for several months now, but I never miss the daily 'As The VO World
Turns.' (As The World Turns is/was a soap opera on American TV)
Mark
--
Mark L. Cooper
Columbus, Ohio USA
This NG ist the only public forum, that is available global and
> it's the visiting card for VO and the community. Seeing everybody in
this
> NG as potentiell customer or promoter of this product, is the best way of
> advertising it and it's free. Of course you will have people in this forum
> with the intention to blame VO and the community. >
Will Chapman
| Will,
|
| As I was not involved in the "controversial" step, I can only guess
Geoff
IMO, there were two 'contraversial steps'. The complaint to his ISP,
and the 'cancellation' of his postings. To my mind....and judging
from various posts, I am not alone... neither of these actions were
justified and one illegal (comparable to the destruction of snail
mail).
| at the motives but I think you will find widespread support for the
| move.
Widespread support? I think that is debatable...my personal
reaction was one of shock that such senior members of the VO
community would take such action without the clear support of
their peers.
.
| His contributions
| were negative, factually flawed and involved a twisted logic at best.
We've had trolls before. Remember Explorer 98? He/she was
handled simply by a combination of kill-listing and peer pressure and
I suspect is now a welcome member of this ng.
| I hope it stops. I have invited Ilias to meet and speak with us as I
| am happy to mend fences if it is possible. We will see if 'Ilias'
| will take up the challenge.
|
Agreed. Let us hope that his antagonists also learn from their
mistakes .......
Will Chapman