Reply from Brian
Graham McKechnie
This is a continuation of a message I sent to Phil McGuinness under the
heading "Brian 2.6". If you want the content and the code check out that
thread.
More disturbing Phil, is that I have received an email from Geoff, as the
Australian distributor, that states that Brian of Grafx has offered me a
refund on 2.6. Seems that Brian is not happy with my remarks, re this
problem and would rather pay me not to use his product. I thought my first
post was quite a reasonable request, but I will add my reply to you was
probably over the top, but at the time I was pissed off with you, for your
stupid assertions, not Brian, but I'm also sure you understood that.
However, today after reading Geoff's email, my first reaction , was to
explode - it had all the hallmarks of a bribe to me. It just so happens,
I've know Brian for many years, probably more years than any of you here.
I've done business with him for many years when my previous company RCM
Software, was the Australian distributor of Clipper and VO, in fact RCM was
the Australian distributor long before CA even became involved, ie we were
Nantucket's distributor, which was even before Brian's time as a distributor
with Grafx. That said - thats all history.
I find it very ordinary that he can't write to me directly, if he is so
upset at my remarks, or even answer my question on this NG re this problem.
He had no problem, writing me an email, "for old times sake" asking me to
quieten down my remarks less than 6 months ago, when I mentioned in a thread
here that I was concerned about the take over of VO by Grafx. I complied
with his request at that time for "old times sake" and quit making any
remarks and stated the same here publically. However, I demonstrated my
loyalty to the product, I backed up and placed my order for VO 2.6
It now has become even more obvious why I was concerned then. I've learnt in
the last couple of days of the pressures that Brian has been under to
release 2.6. This is the first time in about 10 years that I wasn't involved
in the Beta - purely because I chose not to be, because I was not impressed
in the direction things were going and I felt I just didn't want to waste
any more of my time. However, if it wasn't obvious to any of you by now, 2.6
has been rushed out the door. The beta testers evidently complained, but it
all fell on deaf ears. Of course that is not new, seems to happen everytime,
irrespective of who owns VO. I could go through the history 5.0, 5.2, VO1,
VO2, VO2.5. You now might appreciate why I didn't want to be involved in the
beta. But again, another release of VO has gone out buggy, not only the
release of VO, but the whole CD appears to be screwed. In Australia over the
weekend, our distributor has written (excellent support by the way) at least
5 emails, explainling screw ups here and there in the installation. In my
opinion all would have been avoided, if a little bit of time had been spent
getting it together. I gather from Brian's earlier comments I'll cop heaps
for these remarks too, but the buck stops where?
As a professional, I expect professional tools, its now becoming a joke to
even contemplate that this release is a professional release of VO. It has
been super rushed to market to generate money - our money - at this stage we
have all been duped. I at least have been offered a refund, which I'm still
considering, mainly because of the way it was offered - I wonder where you
other guys sit on this issue?. And please if you haven't got 2.6 yet or are
not using it - please save your breath - the number of people who replied to
the last thread and were not even even using the thing was unbelievable.
Give me a break you guys - use it before you make a comment and from what
you said in your email today Phil, that includes you<g>.
I'm also fortunate that I can accept the refund, but also keep on using the
product, for the comapny I work for I think has ordered more than required,
so I'm not sure Brian has achived the goal he was after in offering me a
refund.
Personally, I really don't want a refund, I just want a product that works -
but then again I had the audacity to ask Brian when that may be, and
obviously that offended Brian. I've been told by Geoff that he is meeting
with Brian in 2 weeks or so in Germany. I reckon Brian should put off the
German trip and concentrate on the code and get the thing right real quick.
I've also said earlier, that I accept that these moneys go to the
development of 3.0. Is 3.0 a dream, in my eyes, Brian's eyes?. The only
thing that would demonstrate some faith in 3.0, is the resolution of the
problems mentioned and 2.6 becomes stable in under a month.
So I'm leaning to accepting Brian's offer of a refund, if he states he can't
do it by say Dec 1st. Obviously thats nearly 6 weeks away. Let it be, that
this time he is under pressure to produce by his users, not his masters.
Regards
Graham
Drs. D.J.W. van Kooten
<g...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>Give me a break you guys - use it before you make a comment
Hello Graham,
Guess I'm not giving you a break, because I comment without having
received 2.6 yet <g>. By reading (most of) the thread, your objections
were clear, but the problems were not. I suggested Brian to start a
service on his site where bug reports can be dropped and where Grafx
can acknowledge the bug. Users can then see it's a bug and read when
it will be fixed. So far, I understand, your main problem is with the
way Cavo works with SEEKs when it contains special characters. Well, I
have had an e-mail discussion with a certain Karim Mebarek of the CA
support desk in Europe (located in France) about this issue around May
2000 - without any result (it was 'a problem in DBFCDX and this was a
third party product' ....wasn't it from Grafx??) . If I'm not
mistaken, we've had 3 patches from CA since, in which this problem has
not been solved. So probably, the problem is more complex than we
think, as Brian had his famous 5 months and CA had 2 years to solve
this (or have it solved). I won't say that this bug shouldn't be
solved, but I expect many of us will find unresolved issues in 2.6.
With a database on the site, we will be sure the bugs have been
brought to Grafx's attention - and we will see when they will be
patched.
>Personally, I really don't want a refund, I just want a product that works -
I agree, it is a bit unusual to offer refunds - but it's good service
too! Most software developers unendlessly try to fix things and never
refund a cent. I hope it is not a desperate action <g>
>However, if it wasn't obvious to any of you by now, 2.6 has been rushed out the door. The beta testers evidently complained, but it
>all fell on deaf ears.
I noticed most developers would rather have had half the product 2.6
seems to be now, but 3 month earlier, so Brian was under extreme
pressure. He couldn't postpone anymore and logically, he will have a
yet unknown number of unhappy customers! So probably Brian should
start his database on the internet, patch a few times the next 2
months and then we will know if he did a good job.
The situation reminds me of the current political state in my country
Holland - for those of you who did not follow it...don't start so...
Dick van Kooten
Phil McGuinness
Firstly I guess I do want to be involved in a big song and dance in regard
to the release of VO2.6(a) [sorry...] because as I write I am installing it
on my laptop and will install my production system based on this working OK.
Shit only want to use the thing .. and I don't want to have build it as
well.. that is somebody else's problem.
I hear the complaints and cannot validate them at this point but I do
understand the problem re the Index sort order whether it be Collation() or
ANSI() or whatever did exist in VO25.b3 from your earlier post. I built a
sample which I sent you which seemed to work fine under VO2.5b3 and then
Graham has sent me a return sample which he says shows the problem.. As I
said I may not be clear on exactly what the problem is.. but I want to know
if this a problem will it affect my application. If I can this evening I
will give the sample a try under VO3,5b3 and VO2.6
But interestingly as I install VO2,6 on the Laptop it asked me do I want to
register and I said YEP.. and I get a statement in my Browser which says
"you are here because of an error". Mmm. I wonder what that is.
Anyway there is seems to be some Testosterone in the air tonight...
However as we are going down the history of Clipper and VO I actually bought
my Clipper and Blinker and Gridpro off Graham all those years ago and I
think I also bought VO1.0a and I picked up VO1.0 direct at the CA conference
in New Orleans in September 1995. Wow has there been some water under the
bridge since then.
I also have bought some stuff off Brian like Flex and xBase as well, so your
about even from my point of view.
I would hate this whole thing to erupt further.. Graham wants a bug fixed
which he can demonstrate is a pain in the arse and I have to know work out
is it a problem to me .. which is even worse if you get my drift. <G>
Brian is at release one and I can verify there are some issues that I am
sure I will also report soon as I get into it and I look forward to a
service pack shortly. Hopefully it will not be a Microsoft Monster patch
but something small. I actually wonder with some of the 3rd party stuff
being wrong versions or whatever a new CD sounds good. I hate having to
build a system from multiple sources.
In fact one thing I noticed when I installed VO2.6 was I clicked on the
Auto-download and this thing should have said you are the latest version but
it tried to run the install again I think. No big deal I guess.
snip[ As a professional, I expect professional tools, ]
I echo those sentiments .. and the market is competitive and there are some
very slick alternatives and even more competition to come. If you are right
about the BETA then this is the area to polish these quirks from the system.
===
snip[ Personally, I really don't want a refund, I just want a product that
works -]
We all do and some yelling and screaming every now and then sets the agenda
both ways as long as it is constructive.
====
snip[ Give me a break you guys - use it before you make a comment and from
what you said in your email today Phil, that includes you<g>.]
My tests and comments were based on your statement that is was broken in
VO2,5b3.. therefore I tested under VO2,5b3 and my test work but there is
obviously a twist in the testing.
====
snip[ So I'm leaning to accepting Brian's offer of a refund, if he states he
can't do it by say Dec 1st. ]
I am sure some patch should be available by this time.. seems reasonable to
me.
====
snip[ More disturbing Phil, is that I have received an email from Geoff ]
This would worry me too.... pretty scary stuff ! <BG>
Phil McGuinness
---------------------
Jamie Macleod
they are offering a refund. Sounds like a good company to deal with.
Jamie
"Graham McKechnie" <g...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:QARs9.9522$DP6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Gary Stark
> More disturbing Phil, is that I have received an email from Geoff, as the
> Australian distributor, that states that Brian of Grafx has offered me a
> refund on 2.6. Seems that Brian is not happy with my remarks, re this
> problem and would rather pay me not to use his product. I thought my first
Even that most cynical person in the world (yes, thet would be me) can't read
that interpretation into this offer.
You say that Brian is offering you a refund on 2.6. You've expressed - more
than once - your dissatisfaction with the product. I honestly can't think of a
better way to deal with such dissatisfaction than by offering such a refund.
> As a professional, I expect professional tools, its now becoming a joke to
Offering a refund, no questions asked, is about as professional as one can get.
From what I'm seeing, there's quite a few here who are already satisfied with
the product; and with respect, Grum, you seem to be very much in the minority
here.
> other guys sit on this issue?. And please if you haven't got 2.6 yet or are
> not using it - please save your breath - the number of people who replied to
Fair comment regarding those who aren't yet using 2.6. But I have it; I'm
using it, and am testing it, in a most complex application, quite satisfactorily
for a release to production later this week.
> Personally, I really don't want a refund, I just want a product that works -
My testing confirms for me that the product works. Yes, there's a couple of
minor issues, but they're certainly not show-stoppers.
--
g.
Gary Stark
gst...@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Adriano Rui Gominho
I tested your sample and yes, you are rigth!!!
I migth add that this behaviour is there since VO1 and I (and probably
many non-english speakers on the ng) have worked around it so much
time ago that I do it instinctivelly.
My sugestion: Change setInternational(#CLIPPER)
I have learnt the hard way that it is allways better to rely on a
known CAVONT20.DLL defined collation sequence than to be dependant on
a user changing the windows international settings and getting
corrupted indexes all over the place.
If I had to wait for a fix on this one I would be allready out of
business since '92<g>
As for the offer Brian has made, I can understand him given the harsh
way you have put things on a public forum...
Regards
Adriano
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:32:00 GMT, "Graham McKechnie"
<g...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
Jean-Pierre Maertens
As a professional programmer (for more than 20 years) I have had many
reactions like yours (on a user level of course). We developers make
software that saves thousands of man-years of work, and virtually the only
time you get a spontaneous reaction is when a minor thing goes wrong.
These kind of reactions, and the general tone they are put in, really serve
no other purpose than to show that the one who makes the remark is better
and the other is lesser, and very often one can only guess why remarks are
made in such a brutal way. Certainly not to solve the problem.
I have read the original thread and can only conclude that you spend a lot
of time for a small sequence problem. A similar problem exists in the Dutch
speaking countries, as many names can contain different special characters
and yet must have the same collation sequence (e.g. Dhont = d'hont =
D'hont).
As a matter of fact : everyone has solved something like that : the reason
why we use upper() is mostly to solve a collation problem. So why have you
not expanded on that ? A little function to filter out all those characters
that are not part of the name (but just put there for readabiltiy reasons)
would have saved a lot of frustration.
The same problems also exists with spaces "Van der Bilt" should be collated
the same as "Vanderbilt" because the use will never remember how he has put
it in the computer.
Even in the Clipper days this was a problem. What if your customers change
from "-" to "/" overnight, and still want the old names to be sorted between
the new names. The difficulties with names are endless (e.g. in Germany
where Maertens = Mдrtens...). The real world is a chaotic and complicated
place and thus hard to represent in a computer. Not even Unicode will solve
this.
But please do not insult someone like Brian, who probably has nightmares as
it is.
Jean-Pierre Maertens
PS. and to end with something simple and constructive, an Upper() function
that does something more.
DEFINE Vreemd:="адвйилкпоцфьыз '-./," // these characters wille translated
to
DEFINE normaal:="aaaeeeeiioouuc" // this, unless they are not in this
string, then they are left out.
DEFINE iReturnLengte:=25 // I guess 25 characters there will be enough to
distinguish between two names
FUNCTION MyUpper(cTekst)
LOCAL iLengte AS INT
LOCAL iLetterPos AS INT
LOCAL cLetter AS STRING
LOCAL x AS INT
LOCAL cReturn AS STRING
cTekst:=Trim(cTekst) // do no unnecessary compares
iLengte:=Len(cTekst)
cReturn:=""
FOR x:=1 UPTO iLengte
cLetter:=SubStr3(cTekst,x,1)
iLetterPos:=At2(cLetter,vreemd)
IF iLetterPos=0
cReturn:=cReturn+cLetter
ELSE
cReturn:=cReturn+SubStr3(normaal,iLetterPos,1)
ENDIF
NEXT
RETURN PadR(Upper(cReturn),iReturnLengte)
Mike French
to be with the 3rd party products not VO itself. While ideally this stuff
would have been thoroughly tested too, there are limits as to what the guy
can do so early on.
It'll be weeks before we can verify whether all our apps work fine or not
but so far I'm happy.
Mike.
Nathan Robeson
I for one am willing to cut Brian some major slack.
To take over a project of this size and do any more would be unrealistic.
Brian and staff, I think your doin more than fine.
We have the best chance in a long time to see VO mature.
Just my 2 cents,
Nathan
"Drs. D.J.W. van Kooten" <koo...@ic2.com> wrote in message
news:3db3edbd...@news.zonnet.nl...
Jeff Williams
release some problems appear in the build. Lets say one thing here. BNugs
have been found patched supplied so what is the problem. We can download
them.
I think Brian had done wonders in meeting his timeline and showing his
commitment to this product. I am giving Brian my full support and reather
than complain I am helping him by creating an auto run for the installation
of the software for the next CD.
Please give the man a break he took over what I would consider a product
that had internal problems and now is giving support.
Think back did your first release go as smooth as your current one.
Regards
Jeff
Geoff Schaller
I don't think you are being fair in this. You have clearly and most
concisely written of your displeasure on a number of fronts but you also
wrote it from the perspective of someone with considerable experience. To
the less experienced your words may be cause for concern and rather than air
them within the confines of beat testers etc, you chose the public route.
Ok, that is your right. But you have to understand that the you have caused
unnecessary alarm over something most of us have dealt with for a long time
now.
So Brian has done the most professional thing possible - he has offered you
a money back guarantee. The issue for all of us has to be 3.0 - we know
there are issues with the current version and Brian has been very upfront
about this. The carrot for all of us was the addition of the 3rd party libs
and the SDK to give VO new momentum and some funds for forward development.
Your particular problem that started this tirade is a real one, one that
must be dealt with but one that does have a workaround for now. And the
issue has been with us for 5 years so far... a few more months is not a
disaster.
That's all I want to say here - except that Brian is not going to Germany
just to meet me! <g>. He is going to Germany to Devcon, to get up front with
the product and its users to get first hand a handle on the issues and
problems with 2.6 and 3.0. I think this is as important as coding - and
Brian is not doing the first-hand coding anyway - so I applaud his efforts
to get out and about with the product. I will use this opportunity to meet
with him and hopefully get involved positively with the development of the
product.
Cheers,
Geoff
"Graham McKechnie" <g...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:QARs9.9522$DP6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Morten Pathuel Joergensen
It suits you being polite ..<!!>
But it does not suit you to try to withhold critisism (is that the word ?)
I think this should be an open group. And I must say I'm disappointed about
2.6 myself.
I've had so many crashes and errors trying to install and reimport, and I
must admit I had expected more... but that belongs in another thread.
Do you really believe the most professional thing is to offer the money back
??
Me, Graham and others depend on VO, so just to take our money back is not an
issue for us.
I think Graham is the professional here. And the fact that he did not have
the time and energy to join the beta testing program should not make his
postings less relevant. Neither did I, but that will, and should not,
withhold me from expressing my opinion here.
I really believe the proffesional thing to do would be to release an error
free version. (and I know that I have never done that either <s>)
If we are moving towards times where the product holders (developers?) and
resellers offer customers money to shut up, we are very long away from what
Grafx promised: listening to the customers, openness and so forth.... There
actually havent been any postings from Grafx (that I know of) in this this
group since the release of 2.6...Hmmm
Well, It's just my opinion
Let's hope for the best for VO.
And shutting up will never get us there <s>
Morten
"Geoff Schaller" <geof...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:CB%s9.10674$DP6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Gary Stark
> But it does not suit you to try to withhold critisism (is that the word ?)
I hever never been known to withhold criticism. Just ask Brian what it's like to
be on the recieving end of my vitriole.
> I think this should be an open group. And I must say I'm disappointed about
> 2.6 myself.
I'm actually very happy with it so far.
> I've had so many crashes and errors trying to install and reimport, and I
> must admit I had expected more... but that belongs in another thread.
Interesting. I've had no such issues whatsoever, and have two 2.5 apps already
running as stable 2.6 apps. I did have the issues with the bBrowser installer
and the 2.5 help file, but apart from that, everything's imported and compiled
cleanly.
The bBrowser issue was unrelated to 2.6 per se, and was resolved within less
than 48 hours of being reported. The fix for the help file was issued before I
even had VO installed and was trivial to apply, so for my purposes it, too, is a
non-issue.
What sort of crashes etc are you experiencing? Are you absolutely certain that
the AEFs you've exported from 2.5 are clean and uncorrupted?
> Do you really believe the most professional thing is to offer the money back
I certainly do. If a customer is not satisfied with the product, then what else
do you suggest?
> Me, Graham and others depend on VO, so just to take our money back is not an
> issue for us.
As do I.
Graham has identified a specific issue that has been hanging around for a number
of years but remains unfixed, and for which there are a number of workarounds.
The failure to fix this problem is clearly an issue, but given that the fixes
were written by CA prior to the handover, and that (effectively) is what has
been issued as 2.6, it is hardly appropriate to attribute this failure to Brian.
Graham can work around the issue should he choose to do so; that is his choice
to make.
You have not yet specified what issues you have encountered. Were you telling me
of bugs in software I have written, I would be asking you for specifics, along
with details of what, precisiely, you have been doing. Graham has done this.
Perhaps you too need to do this?
> I think Graham is the professional here. And the fact that he did not have
Graham has been somewhat professional in providing details, but his choice of
words in a couple of his postings has been not just less than professional, but
totally unacceptable.
In terms of being professional, perhaps Brian has seen this language and the
tone of Graham's attack, and felt it better to not dignify Graham's verbal
torrent with a direct response?
I think that is the mark of a truly dignified and professional individual.
> the time and energy to join the beta testing program should not make his
Just because Graham says that he didn't have the time or energy to join the beta
program doesn't make that the reason he wasn't included. The beta program is, I
believe, invitational. Perhaps he wasn't invited? Not having access to the list
of invitees, I don't know whether or not this was the case. But I can say that,
from my experience in a number of different and quite diverse beta programs,
there has always been more interest from prospective testers than there has been
places for testers.
> I really believe the proffesional thing to do would be to release an error
> free version. (and I know that I have never done that either <s>)
Well, have you ever issued error-free software?
Who has?
> If we are moving towards times where the product holders (developers?) and
> resellers offer customers money to shut up, we are very long away from what
If you honestly believe that to be Brian's motivation, then I respect that as
being your opinion.
Equally, I don't accept Graham's take on that, and I have respectfuly suggested
that Graham was wrong, and similarly, I think that you, too, are incorrect on
this.
Has Brian, in offering that refund, made it conditional upon Graham not saying
anything about VO? I don't know, but I doubt that very much.
> Grafx promised: listening to the customers, openness and so forth.... There
> actually havent been any postings from Grafx (that I know of) in this this
> group since the release of 2.6...Hmmm
Well, you've very wrong there. Brian has made some postings himself, and Geoff
is an official distributor for VO. In that capacity, I would expect that many of
Geoff's posts have been made after direct consultation with Brian.
Further, we've seen some issues with Cavo.com that have needed to be addressed.
That is another official VO resource; do you believe that Brian has not had any
involvement at that level?
Finally, there have been issues with the bBrowser installation and the access to
the 2.6 help file.
How do you believe that those issues were fixed within days of the CDs shipping
unless Brian was listening to what was being said?
> Let's hope for the best for VO.
> And shutting up will never get us there <s>
No, but neither will endless, ill-founded criticism. Back up your statements
with provable facts, rather than baseless innuendo.
Malcolm Gray
>If we are moving towards times where the product holders
> (developers?) and resellers offer customers money to shut up,
Have you any eveidence of this?
I have yet to meet a company that will not offer
a refund to unhappy customers under some circumstances,
but it does not usually include a gagging clause.
Geoff Schaller
> It suits you being polite ..<!!>
Except that you response is sorely testing me for politeness <g>.
> But it does not suit you to try to withhold critisism (is that the word ?)
Me? Not criticise? You gotta be joking <g>. Go back and read all my posts
after 2.5b3 and you will see a similar pattern. Next, ask any of the people
we distributed to and ask them if I have been keeping them informed of
issues. Thirdly, yes, perhaps I am being a little more circumspect than some
because I have been in contact with Brian and do know something of what is
going on. But fourthly and mostly, the greater part of the whinging and
whining in here is not of substantial matters. That has been disappointing.
> I've had so many crashes and errors trying to install and reimport, and I
> must admit I had expected more... but that belongs in another thread.
I haven't. Don't know anyone else who has. Certainly none more than with
2.5b3 - and that is to be expected... its largely the same repo.
> Do you really believe the most professional thing is to offer the money
back
> ??
Yes. This is the way most chain stores and manufacturers behave with
dissatisfied customers. Why should software be any different?
> Me, Graham and others depend on VO, so just to take our money back is not
an
> issue for us.
So do I. What's your point?
> withhold me from expressing my opinion here.
Who has stopped you?
> I really believe the proffesional thing to do would be to release an error
> free version. (and I know that I have never done that either <s>)
So, apply for the beta program and take part! Otherwise, submit bugs and
suggestions and wait for their inclusion or repair like the rest of us.
> If we are moving towards times where the product holders (developers?) and
> resellers offer customers money to shut up, we are very long away from
what
This is quite insulting and I think you should withdraw the comment. We are
commercially responsible for refunding Graham and there is no condition on
the refund. GrafXSoft are covering us and there is no condition placed on us
from GrafXSoft.
> Grafx promised: listening to the customers, openness and so forth....
There
> actually havent been any postings from Grafx (that I know of) in this this
> group since the release of 2.6...Hmmm
The I guess you missed the posts Brian has made and I guess you missed the
posts the various parties made on his behalf and I guess you missed the
updates onhis website.... Hmmmm back.
Cheers,
Geoff
Graham McKechnie
Cool down - Give Morten a break, you were willing to listen to me. So I
believe he deserves the same tolerance.
> Me? Not criticise? You gotta be joking <g>. Go back and read all my posts
> after 2.5b3 and you will see a similar pattern.
Just a small point - you weren't the distributor of 2.5b3 - I gather I'm
still allowed to talk about that version?. Now that your position has
changed, I certainly don't see you criticise VO anymore, I wonder why? -
just be fair Geoff!!
>>
Next, ask any of the people we distributed to and ask them if I have been
keeping them informed of
issues.
>>
Agreed and very appreciated, I'm sure by the Australian VO community.
However I don't see any other distributors doing the same, so thats
obviously Geoff, being Geoff. I'm fine with that though.
However, I also really don't see that as your role as a distributor.
The owner of the product is the one who should be dealing with the product
problems here on this NG. I think what Morten and others have been getting
at, is that Grafx is saying absolutely nothing here since the release. This
obviously pisses them off.
I can assure you, in our days as the distributor, we were never asked to do
the "dirty" work. Each company, at least had people in place, who could
handle this stuff. We did do the sort of stuff you are doing in Australia,
but again it was for the convenience of Australian customers. Somehow I
doubt the numerous messages we Aussies received over the weekend, went out
world wide.
So I guess Morten didn't get to read them. So don't be too hard on him
It can be stressful Geoff being a distributor, the phone never stops, but in
your case its only a handlfull, so where is the problem? I used to flick
pass 'em to Ronny anyway, isn't that what Bruce is for, sorry Bruce,
couldn't resist that one, but 30 or 40 people is not quite the same as
5,000.
>>
Yes. This is the way most chain stores and manufacturers behave with
dissatisfied customers. Why should software be any different?
>>
This is a totally absurb concept developed by Grafx, and is a first in the
developer software industry. So now developer software, can be considered
the same as a pair of nickers. Its not something I think MS offer with their
subscription to Visual Studio, but Grafx obviously has a hit here - and I
was the first lucky guy. I wonder how many will follow that lead?
>>
But fourthly and mostly, the greater part of the whinging and
whining in here is not of substantial matters.
>>
Sorry Geoff, not true - some matters are very substancial - you can't do
that Geoff - ie just write off major bugs. You are dooming the product in a
big way by being so flippant about the reported bugs, and again, I
respectively suggest, it is not your position to make these remarks. These
remarks should be attributed to the reluctant owner of the product Grafx.
What does it take to get them to appear here again? All over the place with
the annoucement - never to be seen again!
>>
I haven't. Don't know anyone else who has. Certainly none more than with
2.5b3 - and that is to be expected... its largely the same repo.
>>
You haven't Geoff, great. Are you listening? others have!!!! There is a bit
of problem there, that you seem to be ignoring. Sorry, you aren't, but Grafx
is.
>>
So, apply for the beta program and take part! Otherwise, submit bugs and
suggestions and wait for their inclusion or repair like the rest of us.
>>
Have a read of that again. How abnoxious do you think that sounds - I
thought for a moment that was Stark. Obviously your frustration level is
rising, like mine did a couple of days ago. I personally think its very
unfair that you have to take the brunt of this stuff, Grafx should be
handling it, but then again knowing you Geoff, you probably volunteered, or
can't help yourself, but the responsibility to defend Grafx shouldn't fall
on you or your company. Bruce, give him a day off, suggest golf as a new
passion, then he could really become frustrated.
>>
This is quite insulting and I think you should withdraw the comment. We are
commercially responsible for refunding Graham and there is no condition on
the refund. GrafXSoft are covering us and there is no condition placed on us
from GrafXSoft.
>>
Now you are getting super sensitive, but I do read it the same way as Morten
has, and I think some others are also considering. Give 'em them money back
and hope they will shut up. Somehow I doubt that will ever work Bribes
never work in any situation.
>>The I guess you missed the posts Brian has made
Hmm... I guess, I'm in the same boat as Morten, because I can't find Brian's
posts here either.
As very old to new. I hope you have a better day tomorrow, maybe the
dickheads will never ring<g>
Regards
Graham
"Geoff Schaller" <geof...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:vQwt9.18624$DP6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Morten Pathuel Joergensen
I'm sure it's testing you..<g>
As I have written before, how am I to know who is in contact with who. And
who is writing on behalf of GrafxSoft ?.
And if your postings are from GrafxSoft or supported by them, maybe you
should make that clear.
I am reading another (private) newsgroup where posting from the company
involved allways states that they are "official"
They use the company name in their names like : peter [company]
Comments:
> Me? Not criticise? You gotta be joking <g>. Go back and read all my posts
> after 2.5b3 and you will see a similar pattern. Next, ask any of the
people
> we distributed to and ask them if I have been keeping them informed of
> issues. Thirdly, yes, perhaps I am being a little more circumspect than
some
> because I have been in contact with Brian and do know something of what is
> going on. But fourthly and mostly, the greater part of the whinging and
> whining in here is not of substantial matters. That has been
disappointing.
Have been reading many posts from you, but this is the one I responded to.
What you find substantial might not be substantial to me. And the other way
around.
> Yes. This is the way most chain stores and manufacturers behave with
> dissatisfied customers. Why should software be any different?
Chain stores ? Haven't seen yours up here north. <g>
Well of course if buy butter and it's too old. Sure it's great to get you
money back.
But once you've decided for a development platform, I think it's a totally
different ballgame...
> So do I. What's your point?
> Who has stopped you?
No one, yet. And I hope no one will. I have never been critical here before.
And I won't be in future.
But trying to keep critisism down just seems so .. Don't know the english
word ... wrong ??
Especially if you have an economical interest in it...
> So, apply for the beta program and take part! Otherwise, submit bugs and
> suggestions and wait for their inclusion or repair like the rest of us.
Would like to. Afraid I do not have the time.
> This is quite insulting and I think you should withdraw the comment. We
are
> commercially responsible for refunding Graham and there is no condition on
> the refund. GrafXSoft are covering us and there is no condition placed on
us
> from GrafXSoft.
OK. Comment withdrawn. And apologies.
I was simply reading between the lines, and apparently got the wrong
impression.
Sorry.
> The I guess you missed the posts Brian has made and I guess you missed the
> posts the various parties made on his behalf and I guess you missed the
> updates onhis website.... Hmmmm back.
Just checked google, No postings with author "Brian" or "grafxsoft.com"
since october 15th. But I'm propably wrong.
As I have written in another reply:
I'll shut up from here (on my own free will <g>).
Morten
Morten Pathuel Joergensen
No I haven't. And I hope I won't get it.
Regards.
Morten
"Malcolm Gray" <malcol...@jobstream.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qpn5pa...@192.168.1.252...
Morten Pathuel Joergensen
Guess I really got my hands dirty here <g>.
If I insulted anyone, I'm sorry.
A few comments:
> I hever never been known to withhold criticism. Just ask Brian what it's
like to be on the recieving end of my vitriole.
I don't know you, your relations to CA or GrafxSoft for that matter, and my
post
was not directed to you.
> I'm actually very happy with it so far.
OK, glad your happy. But these words from Geoff really pissed me off:
"and rather than air them within the confines of beat testers etc, you chose
the public route. Ok, that is your right"
What I read between the lines are: Take your money back, and get the h...
out of here.
> Interesting. I've had no such issues whatsoever, and have two 2.5 apps
already
> running as stable 2.6 apps. I did have the issues with the bBrowser
installer
> and the 2.5 help file, but apart from that, everything's imported and
compiled
> cleanly.
So it didn't afterall. I have a really hard time trying to convince myself,
that this CD has been tested.
Try to uninstall VO (got it installed in a path with spaces) . Errors. OK,
Run installation. Uninstall. Reinstall. Errors.
Apparently because of VOPP. Uninstall VOPP. Same story. Reinstall VOPP. OK
it runs, but .....
Tried to register. "You are here because af an error."
Tried "check for updates".. Error.
Maybe these things have been fixed, but it was a rather bad experience.
And it's gonna take some time getting all the patches and fixes collected
and installed.
> The bBrowser issue was unrelated to 2.6 per se, and was resolved within
less
> than 48 hours of being reported. The fix for the help file was issued
before I
> even had VO installed and was trivial to apply, so for my purposes it,
too, is a
> non-issue.
Have not install bBrowser, yet.
And maybe your right. Most of problems are related to the 3rd party things.
> I certainly do. If a customer is not satisfied with the product, then what
else
> do you suggest?
OK. I guess my next sentence explained that. Apparently I'm wrong. I need a
car. I find a car I like. I buy the car. I find things that are not working
according to specifications. I take it to the garage. They give my money
back. I got no car. <g>
> Graham has identified a specific issue that has been hanging around for a
number
> of years but remains unfixed, and for which there are a number of
workarounds.
> The failure to fix this problem is clearly an issue, but given that the
fixes
> were written by CA prior to the handover, and that (effectively) is what
has
> been issued as 2.6, it is hardly appropriate to attribute this failure to
Brian.
Grafx hasn't touched the VO code in 2.6 ??
> In terms of being professional, perhaps Brian has seen this language and
the
> tone of Graham's attack, and felt it better to not dignify Graham's verbal
> torrent with a direct response?
Attack ? Please don't compare being a critic to being violent.
> Well, you've very wrong there. Brian has made some postings himself, and
Geoff
> is an official distributor for VO. In that capacity, I would expect that
many of
> Geoff's posts have been made after direct consultation with Brian.
Haven't got the time to read all postings.
How should I be able to know ?
> No, but neither will endless, ill-founded criticism. Back up your
statements
> with provable facts, rather than baseless innuendo.
No more Ill-foundation and innuendo (whatever that means) from here.
Promise.
I'll just shut up.
Regards.
Morten
Gary Stark
> changed, I certainly don't see you criticise VO anymore, I wonder why? -
> just be fair Geoff!!
Geoff has rarely been known to criticise VO. When I was down in
Melbourne I
noticed that his glasses were rose coloured and virtually opaque. <g>
> >>
> Next, ask any of the people we distributed to and ask them if I have been
> keeping them informed of
> issues.
> >>
>
> Agreed and very appreciated, I'm sure by the Australian VO community.
> However I don't see any other distributors doing the same, so thats
> obviously Geoff, being Geoff. I'm fine with that though.
Geoff has been sending a number of emails to people within Oz keeping
them
informed of what's been happening from his POV. What makes you think
that Dev
Realm and the various Eu distributors don't have their own mailing
lists, of
which we're (reasonably) not a party to? I'm not saying that they have,
but
merely pointing out that we simply don't know, and that because we don't
know,
we can't really comment on this too much more.
> but again it was for the convenience of Australian customers. Somehow I
> doubt the numerous messages we Aussies received over the weekend, went out
> world wide.
>
> So I guess Morten didn't get to read them. So don't be too hard on him
Fair comment.
> >>
> Yes. This is the way most chain stores and manufacturers behave with
> dissatisfied customers. Why should software be any different?
> >>
>
> This is a totally absurb concept developed by Grafx, and is a first in the
> developer software industry. So now developer software, can be considered
I've returned unsatosfactory products, including software, for a refund
a number
of times. It's not a new concept, and Grafx aren't the first to apply
it.
> unfair that you have to take the brunt of this stuff, Grafx should be
> handling it, but then again knowing you Geoff, you probably volunteered, or
> can't help yourself, but the responsibility to defend Grafx shouldn't fall
Knowing Geoff, he can't help himself. Actually, he's beyond help.
<g>
> >>The I guess you missed the posts Brian has made
>
> Hmm... I guess, I'm in the same boat as Morten, because I can't find Brian's
> posts here either.
I just counted about 46 posts from Brian. Took me all of a few seconds
to find
'em.
Graham McKechnie
> I just counted about 46 posts from Brian. Took me all of a few seconds to
find 'em.
You obviously have a different NG reader than me. I get one, his open letter
with today's date.
Graham
"Gary Stark" <8905...@RedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message
news:3DB7707F...@RedbacksWeb.com...
Geoff Schaller
Ok, I guess I just see things differently. You had your say, Graham had his
and I had mine. I don't want to draw this out because I think my points were
made. I've read Graham's response and I guess we just have different views
on some issues - but we agree on others. Its best left at that for now. A
beer in a bar the place next best to carry on such discussions because I
suspect there can't be any one winner <g>.
But no, I do not speak for GrafXSoft, officially or unofficially. I have
never claimed this and never will. My company does distribute VO in Oz and I
would have thought everyone would know that by now. You can read any bias
you like into that but I claim none. I am critical of processes and people
(mostly) where it I think it is appropriate and (mostly again), that's not
in public.
But now, as in the past and you can bet for the future, I will keep jumping
on my definition of excessive complaints about VO. I just find 90% or more
to be user error or sloppy coding or laziness or all of the above. I make no
apologies for this approach but I appreciate that some people don't like -
too bad... I'll put up with the flak <g>. It has nothing to do Brian, CA or
anything. Its just my approach.
Cheers,
Geoff
"Morten Pathuel Joergensen" <pat...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ap6ra7$26mt$1...@news.cybercity.dk...
Morten Pathuel Joergensen
> suspect there can't be any one winner <g>.
I'll drop into a bar tomorrow afternoon, and do some serious discussions
with myself.
I'll probably get really pissed off and unpolite...<ggg>
Morten
Geoff Schaller
"Morten Pathuel Joergensen" <pat...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ap9bmp$25rm$1...@news.cybercity.dk...