Writing on the wall
coaste...@yahoo.com
Writing on the wall
A thorn in the world's side
11.03.2009 | YNet
Sever Plocker
A thorn in the world’s side
Israel in midst of freefall on global front, yet we’re preoccupied
with nonsense
I’ve been invited to deliver a lecture about Israel’s economy and
society at Oxford University. As it is a short lecture, and a
respectable forum, I gladly accepted the offer. The invitation was
extended about six months ago. Yet now, as my trip approaches, I feel
concern. I’m hesitating.
My acquaintances are warning me: Don’t go. Hostile elements will cause
disturbances, protest, shout and interfere. The atmosphere at British
universities is anti-Israel to an extent unseen in the past. Israel is
perceived as a thorn in the civilized world’s side.
An Israeli professor who quietly left a prestigious British university
told me: “My academic and social life there was intolerable.
Colleagues stayed away from me as if I was a leper. I was not invited
to meetings, which were shifted from university buildings to private
residences in order to keep me out. The fact I openly expressed
leftist views was to no avail. My objection to the occupation and
endorsement of a return to the 1967 borders made no difference. In
practice, I became ostracized.”
“Today you are a welcome guest in the British and European academic
world only if you reject the very existence of the colonialist and
imperialistic creature that methodically commits war crimes, known as
Israel,” he said. “Today it isn’t enough to condemn Bibi and Barak; in
order to be accepted by academia outside of Israel one must condemn
the Balfour Declaration.”
British academia’s radicalism highlights the accelerated deterioration
in Israel’s status and image. We are in the midst of a freefall on the
foreign affairs front. The cold peace with three Muslim states –
Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey – has turned into a cold war. Israelis are
unwelcome guests in these and many other states, where in the past we
were embraced.
Meanwhile, Israel failed in its efforts to isolate Ahmadinejad’s Iran
and disqualify it as a member of the family of nations. Ahmadinejad is
having a grand time.
Bibi doesn’t see the change
The intimate dialogue that in the past characterized the relationship
between the US president and Israel’s prime minister is paralyzed. The
pipeline of dialogue is clogged. India and China, the two emerging
powers, voted in favor of adopting the Goldstone Report at the UN’s
human rights commission. Ever since then, it has been etched on
Israel’s forehead as a Sign of Cain.
Friendly governments, such as France and Britain, are turning their
backs on us while currying favor with local sentiments. Israel’s
membership in OECD, which was largely a done deal in the past, is
distancing again – because of the growing negativity vis-à-vis Israel
and not because any technical dispute. By coincidence, or not, large
foreign investors are pulling out of Israel.
Does everyone hate us? Possibly so, yet the fact is that up until six
months ago Israel enjoyed an extraordinary boom on the foreign affairs
front, both in terms of its foreign ties as well as in global public
opinion. This fact points to one source for the deterioration we’re
seeing: The new government in Jerusalem.
Indeed, this is a government elected by the people and it reflects the
preferences of voters, who wanted a coalition comprising Likud, Shas,
and Yisrael Beiteinu. As such, Netanyahu appointed Lieberman foreign
minister, did not agree to a government rotation with Kadima, was
unable to arrange a work meeting with the Palestinian Authority
president, and conveyed a message of indifference towards the peace
process.
Yet worse than this, the 2009 Netanyahu does not understand the world,
and he mostly fails to grasp the change taking place within
conservative parties, which are close to his political positions.
Today they are the source of harsh criticism against the Israeli
government; Netanyahu’s government.
The current anti-Israel wave is particularly dangerous especially
because it is not limited to the media and to leftist groups that
traditionally were classified as “Israel haters.” This wave is rising,
expending, drawing young people, and painting the perceptions of the
well-established middle class and influential elites.
Israel’s image has hit a nadir; it is isolated, unwanted, and
perceived as bad. The world is telling us that should we continue
along the same contemptible path, we will lose our legitimacy.
Yet we’re preoccupied with nonsense.
Honest truth
> Yet we嚙踝蕭re preoccupied with nonsense.
--
嚙踝蕭Of all the extreme fanaticism which plays havoc in man嚙踝蕭s nature, there is
not one as irrational as anti-Semitism. 嚙皺 If the Jews are rich [these
fanatics] are victims of theft. If they are poor, they are victims of
ridicule. If they take sides in a war, it is because they wish to take
advantage from the spilling of non-Jewish blood. If they espouse peace, it
is because they are scared by their natures or traitors. If the Jew dwells
in a foreign land he is persecuted and expelled. If he wishes to return to
his own land, he is prevented from doing so.嚙踝蕭
Lloyd George
Honest truth
other countries are democracies and their citizens can make such decisions.
> Indeed, this is a government elected by the people and it reflects the
> preferences of voters, who wanted a coalition comprising Likud, Shas,
> and Yisrael Beiteinu.
Fish Supper
"icono...@yahoo.com" <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8b3c2d2a-c38c-4f79...@e4g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
Writing on the wall
***
great post iconoclast.
It always starts in academia, then it becomes accepted by the middle class,
then by the population at large.
There is definitely a groundswell of ant-israeli opinion throughout the
educated European classes and for the first time in my lifetime it is broad
and possibly even a majority.
The demise of Israel is not a question of 'if', but of 'when' and of how
many innocent civilians will die and how much ethnic cleansing it will carry
out before it goes.
drahcir
indeed expelled."
On Nov 13, 4:42 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> From the River to the Sea. By Gilad Atzmon
> 2009 November 11
> by kanan48
> .Via: Gilad Atzmon.
Everyone here knows that HHW, whose latest pretentious alias is
"iconoclast", is a willful ignoramus with regard to Israel, choosing
to rely on a handful of completely unobjective sources, including
Finklestein and Atzmon. Here is PROOF that Atzmon is a liar, and by
implication, HHW is therefore a naive, silly old fool.
<snip for focus>
> Haaretz reported today that the Israeli PM admitted in Washington that
> he was committed to ‘two states living side by side’. However, he
> stressed that the “the right of Palestinian refugees to return to the
> homes from which they were expelled, would not be on the table.”
It is crystal clear that Atzmon wants the reader to think that the
above quote is the words of Netanyahu, and HHW bought it hook, line,
and sinker. Problem is that it isn't. Here is a quote from the
original Haaretz article:
"In his address, Netanyahu also appeared to resist U.S. pressure to
promote the two-state solution. He said he was committed to two states
living side by side, but stressed that the central issues - the right
of Palestinian refugees to return to the homes from which they were
expelled and certain territorial claims - would not be on the table."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127420.html
As anyone can see, nowhere does the article state or imply that
Netanyahu made the statement quoted in the Atzmon article. From the
Haaretz article, we have no idea about the words Netanyahu used and,
since there is no quote provided, whether he even stated the ideas
that Haaretz says he stated. The concept of expulsion is clearly that
of Ms. Mozgovaya, the author of the article, not of Netanyahu. Even
the idea of "central issues" is not Netanyahu's, but rather
Mozgovaya's.
So, H, please, please give the group your poignant observations about
precisely how you became a naive, silly old fool!
<snip remainder of discredited nonsense>
Fish Supper
"drahcir" <justrich...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cf69c0cd-d21a-4a33...@d5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
indeed expelled."
Care to answer the questions of Israeli use of White Phosphorous?
coaste...@yahoo.com
> As are you iconocl...@yahoo.com
Take it up with the author.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> It is a shame for people like you iconocl...@yahoo.com that Israel and many
> other countries are democracies and their citizens can make such decisions.
Israel is a deeply racist, apartheid state with some superficially
democratic tendencies.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:8b3c2d2a-c38c-4f79...@e4g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>
> Writing on the wall
>
> ***
> great post iconoclast.
>
> It always starts in academia, then it becomes accepted by the middle class,
> then by the population at large.
>
> There is definitely a groundswell of ant-israeli opinion throughout the
> educated European classes and for the first time in my lifetime it is broad
> and possibly even a majority.
The change you see in Europe is accellerating here in the States too.
We're behind the Europeans partly because of our provincialism but
also because of the power and brutal tactics of the Israel Lobby, but
that too is in decline.
> The demise of Israel is not a question of 'if', but of 'when' and of how
> many innocent civilians will die and how much ethnic cleansing it will carry
> out before it goes.
Who could discount the prediction? The Zionist movement believes it is
'justified,' even required, by its ideology to force the Israeli
people to run great risks.* A settlement short of its maximal goals
would be an admission that the doctrine was defective ab initio and
simply a rationale for naked aggression.
----------------------------------
*You'll forgive, I hope, a learned reference to Coach Belichek's
equally arrogant fourth and two call which lost the game for the
Patriots against the Colts this last weekend.
drahcir
> "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I am sure you'd stay on topic, if you were able to comprehend what the
topic is.
drahcir
wrote:
got nothing to say about Atzmon, H? Why suddenly so shy, even coy? Are
you playing hard to get?
coaste...@yahoo.com
> From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
> indeed expelled."
No, no, Miss Ratner. That's not the way it works. This is the "Writing
on the Wall" thread. Do try to say something perceptive and
intellectually honest about Sever Plocker's article. Don't leave the
field to the rest of us. We do need a few fools such as you here and
there.
PS: Are you aware that Dr. Finkelstein is writing is writing a new
book on the coming collapse of Zionism?
coaste...@yahoo.com
Oh, he's already done that. WP was used against densely packed
civilian neighborhoods in Gaza for illumination purposes. And anyhow G-
d's "Chosen Troops" can't maintain their traditional casualty ratios,
e.g., 1,400 Palestinian civilians of all ages to 7 Israelis, if they
have to fight mano a mano in the dark. It's called "purity of arms."
drahcir
wrote:
Well, for some strange reason, you didn't reply to me in the Atzmon
thread, so I just want to make sure that you don't forget about it.
Perhaps poo wittoo HHW is just too shy and timid to post a reply to
big, bad drahcir, about Atzmon? Isn't that just the cutest thing? Oy
veh, what is more pathetic than a senile octagenarian playing the
coquette? Here's what you won't reply to, yet again, sugarplum:
From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
indeed expelled."
On Nov 13, 4:42 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
coaste...@yahoo.com
> On Nov 17, 2:24 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 17, 8:15 am, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
> > > indeed expelled."
>
> > No, no, Miss Ratner. That's not the way it works. This is the "Writing
> > on the Wall" thread. Do try to say something perceptive and
> > intellectually honest about Sever Plocker's article. Don't leave the
> > field to the rest of us. We do need a few fools such as you here and
> > there.
>
> > PS: Are you aware that Dr. Finkelstein is writing is writing a new
> > book on the coming collapse of Zionism?
>
> Well, for some strange reason, you didn't reply to me in the Atzmon
> thread, so I just want to make sure that you don't forget about it.
WHAT?!! You had someting to say? You? Not likely, Richard. You did
what you always do. You defamed Atzmon personally without responding
to the substance of his article. Why should I have an obligation to
respond to that? You treat all of your opponents the same way and
NEVER contribute to the debate in any thread. You are a terrible
representive of the Jewish people. They should be rising up against
you. I think they don't because you're so repulsive they shrink from
being soiled by any contact with the likes of you.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 17, 8:15 am, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
> > > indeed expelled."
>
> > No, no, Miss Ratner. That's not the way it works. This is the "Writing
> > on the Wall" thread. Do try to say something perceptive and
> > intellectually honest about Sever Plocker's article. Don't leave the
> > field to the rest of us. We do need a few fools such as you here and
> > there.
>
> > PS: Are you aware that Dr. Finkelstein is writing is writing a new
> > book on the coming collapse of Zionism?
>
> Well, for some strange reason, you didn't reply to me in the Atzmon
> thread, so I just want to make sure that you don't forget about it.
> Perhaps poo wittoo HHW is just too shy and timid to post a reply to
> big, bad drahcir, about Atzmon? Isn't that just the cutest thing? Oy
> veh, what is more pathetic than a senile octagenarian playing the
> coquette? Here's what you won't reply to, yet again, sugarplum:
>
> From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
> indeed expelled."
Popular Rabbi’s Comments on Treatment of Arabs Show a Different Side
of Chabad
By Nathaniel Popper
Published June 03, 2009, issue of June 12, 2009.
Print Email Share Author Archive News
Like the best Chabad-Lubavitch rabbis, Manis Friedman has won the
hearts of many unaffiliated Jews with his charismatic talks about love
and God; it was Friedman who helped lead Bob Dylan into a relationship
with Chabad.
But Friedman, who today travels the country as a Chabad speaker,
showed a less warm and cuddly side when he was asked how he thinks
Jews should treat their Arab neighbors.
“The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their
holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle),” Friedman wrote
in response to the question posed by Moment Magazine for its “Ask the
Rabbis” feature.
Friedman argued that if Israel followed this wisdom, there would be
“no civilian casualties, no children in the line of fire, no false
sense of righteousness, in fact, no war.”
“I don’t believe in Western morality,” he wrote. “Living by Torah
values will make us a light unto the nations who suffer defeat because
of a disastrous morality of human invention.”
Friedman’s use of phrasing that might seem more familiar coming from
an Islamic extremist has generated a swift backlash. The editor of
Moment, Nadine Epstein, said that since the piece was printed in the
current issue they “have received many letters and e-mails in response
to Rabbi Friedman’s comments — and almost none of them have been
positive.”
Friedman quickly went into damage control. He released a statement to
the Forward, through a Chabad spokesman, saying that his answer in
Moment was “misleading” and that he does believe that “any neighbor of
the Jewish people should be treated, as the Torah commands us, with
respect and compassion.”
But Friedman’s words have generated a debate about whether there is a
darker side to the cheery face that the Chabad-Lubavitch movement
shows to the world in its friendly outreach to unaffiliated Jews.
Mordecai Specktor, editor of the Jewish community newspaper in
Friedman’s hometown, St. Paul. Minn., said: “The public face of
Lubavitch is educational programs and promoting Yiddishkeit. But I do
often hear this hard line that Friedman expresses here.”
“He sets things out in pretty stark terms, but I think this is what
Lubavitchers believe, more or less,” said Specktor, who is also the
publisher of the American Jewish World. “They are not about loving the
Arabs or a two-state solution or any of that stuff. They are
fundamentalists. They are our fundamentalists.” Abraham Foxman,
national director of the Anti-Defamation League and a regular critic
of Arab extremists, said that in the Jewish community, “We are not
immune to having these views. There are people in our community who
have these bigoted, racist views.”
But, Foxman warned, Friedman’s views are not reflective of the Chabad
rabbis he knows. “I am not shocked that there would be a rabbi who
would have these views,” Foxman said, “but I am shocked that Moment
would give up all editorial discretion and good sense to publish this
as representative of Chabad.”
A few days after anger about the comment surfaced, Chabad headquarters
released a statement saying that, “we vehemently disagree with any
sentiment suggesting that Judaism allows for the wanton destruction of
civilian life, even when at war.”
The statement added: “In keeping with Jewish law, it is the
unequivocal position of Chabad-Lubavitch that all human life is G-d
given, precious, and must be treated with respect, dignity and
compassion.”
In Moment, Friedman’s comment is listed as the Chabad response to the
question “How Should Jews Treat Their Arab Neighbors?” after a number
of answers from rabbis representing other Jewish streams, most of
which state a conciliatory attitude toward Arabs.
Epstein said that Friedman was “brave” for stating his views so
clearly.
“The American Jewish community doesn’t have the chance to hear
opinions like this,” Epstein said, “not because they are rare, but
because we don’t often ask Chabad and other similar groups what they
think.”
The Chabad movement is generally known for its hawkish policies toward
the Palestinians; the Chabad Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson,
rejected peace accords with the Palestinians. Rabbi Moshe Feller, the
top Chabad rabbi in Minnesota, said that the rebbe taught that it is
not a mitvah to kill, but that Jews do have an obligation to act in
self-defense.
“Jews as a whole, they try to save the lives of others,” Feller told
the Forward, “but if it’s to save our lives, then we have to do what
we have to do. It’s a last resort.”
Friedman is not a fringe rabbi within the Chabad-Lubavitch movement.
He was the English translator for the Chabad Rebbe, and at the rebbe’s
urging, he founded Beis Chana, a network of camps and schools for
Jewish women. Friedman is also a popular speaker and writer on issues
of love and relationships. His first book, “Doesn’t Anyone Blush
Anymore?” was promoted with a quote from Bob Dylan, who Friedman
brought to meet the rebbe.
On his blog and Facebook page, Friedman’s emphasis is on his
sympathetic, caring side. It was this reputation that made the comment
in Moment so surprising to Steve Hunegs, director of the Jewish
Community Relations Council: Minnesota and the Dakotas.
“Rabbi Friedman is a best-selling author who addresses some of the
most sensitive issues of the time,” Hunegs said. “I intend to call him
and talk to him about this.”
But Shmarya Rosenberg, a blogger and critic of Chabad who lives a few
blocks from Friedman in Minnesota, says that the comment in Moment is
not an aberration from his experiences with Friedman and many other
Chabad rabbis.
“What he’s saying is the standard normal view of a Chabadnik,”
Rosenberg said. “They just don’t say it in public.”
For his part, Friedman was quick to modify the statement that he wrote
in Moment. He told the Forward that the line about killing women and
children should have been in quotes; he said it is a line from the
Torah, though he declined to specify from which part. Friedman also
said that he was not advocating for Israel to actually kill women and
children. Instead, he said, he believed that Israel should publicly
say that it is willing to do these things in order to scare
Palestinians and prevent war.
“If we took this policy, no one would be killed — because there would
be no war,” Friedman said. “The same is true of the United States.”
Friedman did acknowledge, however, that in self-defense, the behavior
he talked about would be permissible.
“If your children are threatened, you do whatever it takes — and you
don’t have to apologize,” he said.
Friedman argued that he is different from Arab terrorists who have
used similar language about killing Jewish civilians.
“When they say it, it’s genocide, not self-defense,” Friedman said.
“With them, it’s a religious belief — they need to rid the area of us.
We’re not saying that.”
Feller, the Chabad leader in Minnesota, said that the way Friedman had
chosen to express himself was “radical.”
“I love him,” Feller said. “I brought him out here — he’s magnificent.
He’s brought thousands back to Torah mitzvah. But he shoots from the
hip sometimes.”
Contact Nathaniel Popper at pop...@forward.com.
coaste...@yahoo.com
Supper is another of your masters, Missey. You are abjectly talentless.
drahcir
wrote:
You're desperately trying to think of any sort of crap to distract
from the fact that you are afraid to answer the below. You're my bitch
now, H. Get used to it.
From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
indeed expelled."
On Nov 13, 4:42 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
coaste...@yahoo.com
Of course I do, but I prefer to let him say it:
Science | Hezbollah Secretary General | Elections
From the River to the Sea
Readers Number : 338
16/11/2009 Gilad Atzmon - Information Clearing House
November 12, 2009
Al-Manar.com.lb is not responsible for the content of this article or
for any external internet sites. The views expressed are the author's
alone.
Let’s once and for all stop getting excited about America mounting
pressure on Israel to freeze West Bank settlements. The entire
fascination with the topic is a product of Zionist spin. It is there
to divert attention from the root cause of the conflict: The robbery
of Palestine and Palestinians in the name of a ‘Jewish home coming’.
The call to stop Israeli construction in the West Bank is there to
leave us with the false impression that the robbery of Palestine
started in 1967. The facts are known to many of us, but not to all.
The vast majority of Palestinians were expelled from their towns,
villages, fields and orchards in 1948.
What seems as an American peace initiative putting pressure on Israel
to halt its expansion into the West Bank is in fact an agenda that is
promoted by Zionists within the US Administration who realise like the
late Sharon, that the only chance for the Jewish state to survive the
next decade, is to shrink into a little Jewish shtetle (ghetto). The
Two state solution is indeed the last effort to keep Zionism alive.
Netanyahu is far from being stupid. He understands it all. He knows
that his Zionist Revisionist father’s dream of ‘greater Eretz Yisrael’
is unattainable.
Haaretz reported today that the Israeli PM admitted in Washington that
he was committed to ‘two states living side by side’. However, he
stressed that the “the right of Palestinian refugees to return to the
homes from which they were expelled, would not be on the table.”
Seemingly, an Israeli hawkish PM is voluntarily confronting the
Israeli original sin namely the expulsion of the vast majority of the
Palestinians people. However, the fact that he insists that it won’t
be ‘on the table’ can only mean that it is on the table already.
“They”, continues Netanyahu, “must abandon the fantasy of flooding
Israel with refugees, give up irredentist * claims to the Negev and
Galilee, and declare unequivocally that the conflict is finally over".
Clearly, Netanyahu expresses here a wish that is shared by most if not
all Israelis. They all dream to open their eyes in the morning just to
find out that all Goyim, Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims just left the
region.
I am here to advise Netanyahu and every Israeli who is willing to
listen that this is not going to happen. As much as being flooded by
‘refugee’ Palestinians is a deep Israeli nightmare, it is far from
being a Palestinian fantasy. It is actually a reality waiting to
happen. Israel has lost its opportunity to reconcile with its
neighbours. It failed to settle its conflict with the indigenous
people of the land. The fate of Israel will be determined by ‘facts on
the ground’ namely demography. In terms of reconciliation, Israel has
past the no return Zone. Its fate is doomed. One Palestine from the
river to the sea is not any more a matter of ‘if’ but rather a
question of ‘when’.
Unlike most Israelis who dismiss the Palestinian cause, Netanyahu
admitted today that Palestinians were indeed expelled. For the first
time Palestinians’ “irredentist claims” are being addressed by an
Israeli PM. And yet, Netanyahu should stop deluding himself and his
people. It is not just the Negev and Galilee. It is actually every
piece of land between the river and the sea: Tel Aviv, Jerusalem,
Haifa, Be’er Sheva and every village, orchard, field, river and tree
in between. The only question that is left open is how long will it
take for the Shekel to drop? How long will it take before Israelis
grasp that they dwell on stolen land? How long will it take before the
Israelis realise that the battle is lost? How long will it take for
the Israelis to internalise the obvious fact that they have once again
managed to get on the wrong side of their Neighbours?
Al-Manar.com.lb is not responsible for the content of this article or
for any external internet sites. The views expressed are the author's
alone.
drahcir
wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2:39 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 2:24 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 17, 8:15 am, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
> > > > indeed expelled."
>
> > > No, no, Miss Ratner. That's not the way it works. This is the "Writing
> > > on the Wall" thread. Do try to say something perceptive and
> > > intellectually honest about Sever Plocker's article. Don't leave the
> > > field to the rest of us. We do need a few fools such as you here and
> > > there.
>
> > > PS: Are you aware that Dr. Finkelstein is writing is writing a new
> > > book on the coming collapse of Zionism?
>
> > Well, for some strange reason, you didn't reply to me in the Atzmon
> > thread, so I just want to make sure that you don't forget about it.
>
> WHAT?!! You had someting to say? You? Not likely, Richard.
H, do you think there is a soul here who is not laughing at the way
you are desperately flailing around, trying to distract from the fact
that you're my bitch now? You'll remain so so long as you don't answer
the following:
From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
indeed expelled."
On Nov 13, 4:42 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
<snip for focus>
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127420.html
*********
You did
> what you always do. You defamed Atzmon personally without responding
> to the substance of his article.
I proved he lied. That's not defaming. If you could have refuted my
proof, you would have. You can't.
Why should I have an obligation to
> respond to that?
Is this your way of admitting that Atzmon is a liar and you are a
naive, silly old fool for buying his lie hook, line, and sinker? YES
OR NO?
You treat all of your opponents the same way and
> NEVER contribute to the debate in any thread.
I destroyed the article that was the basis of the thread in question.
I am awaiting your admission of that. Once that admission occurs, I'll
destroy the next of your silly posts. But first things first, right?
You are a terrible
> representive of the Jewish people. They should be rising up against
> you. I think they don't because you're so repulsive they shrink from
> being soiled by any contact with the likes of you.
Aw poo wittoo H can't take it. It's so simple, H. Reply to the above,
and all your misery is over.
drahcir
wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2:39 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 2:24 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 17, 8:15 am, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
> > > > indeed expelled."
>
> > > No, no, Miss Ratner. That's not the way it works. This is the "Writing
> > > on the Wall" thread. Do try to say something perceptive and
> > > intellectually honest about Sever Plocker's article. Don't leave the
> > > field to the rest of us. We do need a few fools such as you here and
> > > there.
>
> > > PS: Are you aware that Dr. Finkelstein is writing is writing a new
> > > book on the coming collapse of Zionism?
>
> > Well, for some strange reason, you didn't reply to me in the Atzmon
> > thread, so I just want to make sure that you don't forget about it.
> > Perhaps poo wittoo HHW is just too shy and timid to post a reply to
> > big, bad drahcir, about Atzmon? Isn't that just the cutest thing? Oy
> > veh, what is more pathetic than a senile octagenarian playing the
> > coquette? Here's what you won't reply to, yet again, sugarplum:
>
> > From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
> > indeed expelled."
Oooh, poo wittoo H had to snip snip all da bad hurty away. We'll just
have to replace it for him:
From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
indeed expelled."
On Nov 13, 4:42 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
<snip for focus>
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127420.html
> ...
>
> read more »
Fish Supper
On Nov 17, 6:49 am, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
> "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:8b3c2d2a-c38c-4f79...@e4g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>
> Writing on the wall
>
> ***
> great post iconoclast.
>
> It always starts in academia, then it becomes accepted by the middle
> class,
> then by the population at large.
>
> There is definitely a groundswell of ant-israeli opinion throughout the
> educated European classes and for the first time in my lifetime it is
> broad
> and possibly even a majority.
The change you see in Europe is accellerating here in the States too.
We're behind the Europeans partly because of our provincialism but
also because of the power and brutal tactics of the Israel Lobby, but
that too is in decline.
***
I think the main reason that there is even some residual support for Israel
in Europe, apart from ignorance, is the hangover from WWII and the
associated guilt that all europeans feel, by association if not by virtue of
deed, about the horror of what happened to the Jews.
It is the difficulty we face in disassociating Jewery from the actions of
Israel that makes many people give up before they start.
This of course is the Zionist trump card, whereby anyone who criticises
Israel is implicitly criticising of Jews and therefore anti-semtic and
therefore one short step removed from being a Nazi.
Time will, of course, start to play a major role from now on. The children
of those who actually carried out the holocaust are now old people and each
passing generation will feel less and less guilt and will start to look at
Israeli behaviour on its own merits. Their behaviour has been akin to that
of the Nazis and was highlighted as never before with their inhuman attack
on Gaza and this is being seen for what it is.
The corollary is, of course, that the more the zionists seek to bind Jews
and judaism to the discredited and reviled state of Israel, the worse the
impact will be on the ordinary jewish person in the UK, US or wherever.
> The demise of Israel is not a question of 'if', but of 'when' and of how
> many innocent civilians will die and how much ethnic cleansing it will
> carry
> out before it goes.
Who could discount the prediction? The Zionist movement believes it is
'justified,' even required, by its ideology to force the Israeli
people to run great risks.* A settlement short of its maximal goals
would be an admission that the doctrine was defective ab initio and
simply a rationale for naked aggression.
***
and we couldn't have that, now, could we? tut, tut.
----------------------------------
*You'll forgive, I hope, a learned reference to Coach Belichek's
equally arrogant fourth and two call which lost the game for the
Patriots against the Colts this last weekend.
***
sorry, bud - that's Greek to me. I prefer my football played with the feet,
rather than your colonial version that's played with, ehhm, well...the
hands. ;)
Fish Supper
On Nov 17, 10:26 am, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
> "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cf69c0cd-d21a-4a33...@d5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
> indeed expelled."
>
> Care to answer the questions of Israeli use of White Phosphorous?
Oh, he's already done that. WP was used against densely packed
civilian neighborhoods in Gaza for illumination purposes.
***
Aye, right enough - some of those children's bedrooms must have been awfully
dark.
***
And anyhow G-
d's "Chosen Troops" can't maintain their traditional casualty ratios,
e.g., 1,400 Palestinian civilians of all ages to 7 Israelis, if they
have to fight mano a mano in the dark. It's called "purity of arms."
***
I think they were scared shitless of fighting men with weapons at any time
day or night, rather than their usual target group of mothers and children.
Fish Supper
***
That'll be a squirmy avoidance and a 'no', then?
Fish Supper
***
come now, iconoclast, a tad harsh, don't you think?
Dicky has a wonderful talent ....for making even the most pedestrian of us
look like Albert bleedin' Einstein.
drahcir
> "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:77daeada-0818-4f00...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 17, 10:26 am, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
>
> > "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:cf69c0cd-d21a-4a33...@d5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> > From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
> > indeed expelled."
>
> > Care to answer the questions of Israeli use of White Phosphorous?
>
> I am sure you'd stay on topic, if you were able to comprehend what the
> topic is.
>
> ***
> That'll be a squirmy avoidance and a 'no', then?
I don't care how you take it. My interest for now is HHW and Atzmon.
You are nothing more than a silly child tugging at the pants legs of
the adults, starved for attention. You've contributed zero to any
discussion I have read thus far.
drahcir
wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2:18 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 17, 1:18 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 17, 6:01 am, Honest truth <Honest_tr...@Wisdom.net> wrote:
>
> > > > It is a shame for people like you iconocl...@yahoo.com that Israel and many
> > > > other countries are democracies and their citizens can make such decisions.
>
> > > Israel is a deeply racist, apartheid state with some superficially
> > > democratic tendencies.
>
> > got nothing to say about Atzmon, H? Why suddenly so shy, even coy? Are
> > you playing hard to get?
>
> Of course I do, but I prefer to let him say it:
Who cares about what a proven liar has to say?
Fish Supper
***
LOL! This is priceless. This is pure comedy Gold, this stuff.
The halfwit, whose only contribution to any debate is personal invective,
threats and hysterical denials of Israeli guilt - no matter how
incontrivertible the evidence - tells me that I have contributed nothing to
any discussion.
Is this live? Am I on candid camera, here?
Allow me to wipe the tears of mirth from my cheeks before I point out that I
have contributed quite a number of points concerning Israeli use of White
Phosphorous against civilians and the use of civilians and children as human
shields - as well as providing sources to prove those points.
Points that you have failed to address at any point.
Points that you body swerve and refuse to face head on, becasue you know the
proof is too overwhelming for even your zionist lie machine to cover it up.
You, in a cowardly IDF stylee, have run away when the going gets tough.
Is there any chance you could stop squirming and slithering and perhaps
address the points?
Do you deny the indiscriminate use of WP against civilians?
Do you deny that Israel has repeatedly used children and other civilians as
human shields?
Now who's cowering in a corner hoping this will fade away?
Honest truth
Since you posted it you share in his foolishness
--
“Of all the extreme fanaticism which plays havoc in man’s nature, there is
not one as irrational as anti-Semitism. … If the Jews are rich [these
fanatics] are victims of theft. If they are poor, they are victims of
ridicule. If they take sides in a war, it is because they wish to take
advantage from the spilling of non-Jewish blood. If they espouse peace, it
is because they are scared by their natures or traitors. If the Jew dwells
in a foreign land he is persecuted and expelled. If he wishes to return to
his own land, he is prevented from doing so.”
Lloyd George
coaste...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Okay, you're wrong in your analysis.
coaste...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Articles
16:40 04/28/2009
Israeli Use of Palestinians As Human Shields
'Cases below are examples of customary Israeli practice in violation
of international law.'
By Stephen Lendman – Chicago
The Al Mezan Center for Human Rights is a Gaza-based Palestinian NGO
mandated "to promote, protect and prevent violations of human rights
in general, and economic, social and cultural rights in particular, to
provide effective aid to those victims of such violations, and to
enhance the quality of life of the community in (Gaza's) marginalized
sectors."
It monitors and documents violations, provides legal aid and advocacy,
and helps Gazans on "fundamental issues such as basic human rights,
democracy, and international humanitarian" matters. It also produces
reports and publications on its work.
In April, it published a seven-case study update of its July 2008
report titled: "Hiding Behind Civilians - The Continued Use of
Palestinian Civilians as Human Shields by the Israeli Occupation
Forces." This article reviews both reports to highlight what
international law unequivocally prohibits. Nonetheless, it's customary
IDF practice even though Israel's Supreme Court banned it on October
6, 2005.
One Palestinian woman described her experience:
"They handcuffed and blindfolded me. Then, they forced us to move out
of the room, pushing me with their hands and guns to move although I
was blindfolded and pregnant. I heard them pushing others to hurry up
as well. I got exhausted and fell down many times. I told them that I
was four months pregnant and couldn't continue but a soldier
threatened to shoot me."
Other witness testimonies related similar stories, at times with
tragic consequences for its victims. Israel is a party to various
human rights laws and conventions. As a result, it's obligated to
respect and protect the rights of people it controls.
Under Article 3 of the UN General Assembly's 1948 Universal
Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR): "everyone has the right to life,
liberty and security of person."
Under Article 5: "no one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel,
inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
Under Article 9: "no one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest,
detention or exile."
The General Assembly's 1977 International Covenant on Civil and
Political Rights (ICCPR) affirms the same rights. Under Article 17:
"no one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with
his privacy, family, home or correspondence."
Both international humanitarian law (IHL) and international human
rights law (IHRL) protect life, well-being and dignity. ILH deals with
armed conflicts while IHRL applies to peace as well as war. Hague and
Geneva Conventions comprise the main body of IHL, and strike a balance
between military necessity and humanitarian considerations. As an
occupying power, Israel is obligated under them.
Fourth Geneva protects civilians in war time, including those in
Occupied Palestine. It restricts the use of force and prohibits
seizing non-combatants as hostages, including persons who've laid down
their arms or can't fight because of illness, injury or any other
reason.
Article 34 states: "the taking of hostages is prohibited." Article 28
states: "the presence of a protected person may not be used to render
certain points or areas immune from military operations." Article 29
states: "the Party to the conflict in whose hands protected persons
may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them by its
agents, irrespective of any individual responsibility which may be
incurred."
Protocol I, Article 51, paragraph 7 states: "the presence or movements
of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used
to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in
particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or
to shield, favor or impede military operations." In other words, using
civilians as human shields is prohibited under all circumstances.
Further, the International Criminal Court's (ICC) Rome Statute,
Article 8 prohibits the "Taking of hostages." Israel isn't a Court
member but is obligated under international law. Nonetheless, it
flaunts it with impunity.
Al Mezan collected sworn testimonies of people's homes seized and used
as military posts for days with their residents confined for prolonged
periods, beaten and abused, prevented from normal activities, and put
in harm's way.
Another practice was called the "neighbor procedure," later changed to
"the prior warning procedure" to get around a Court prohibition.
Israel commandeers civilians, has them knock on neighbors' doors,
usually at night, to deliver military orders to submit to arrest.
Hostages are put in harm's way when violence at times erupts that may
result in deaths or injuries.
Finally the practice was banned, but Israel blatantly disregarded its
own High Court ruling as well as its clear obligation under IHL. It
continues to use civilian men, women and children as human shields.
During the Second Intifada (especially for Israel's large-scale West
Bank Operation Defensive Shield incursion), Amnesty International (AI)
said the following in October 2005:
AI "investigated tens of cases where the Israeli army used
Palestinians, children as well as adults, as 'human shields' during
military operations in towns and refugee camps throughout the Occupied
Territories. Palestinians were forced to walk in front of Israeli
soldiers who, at times, fired their weapons while shielding themselves
behind the civilians. As well (they) were made to enter houses ahead
of Israeli soldiers to check for explosives or gunmen hiding inside,
to inspect suspicious objects, to stay in their houses when Israeli
soldiers took them over to use as sniper positions, or to enter the
houses of wanted, possibly armed, Palestinians to tell them to
surrender to Israeli forces."
B'Tselem reports that Israel routinely uses "human shields (as) an
integral part of the orders received by Israeli soldiers...." Al Mezan
documented "dozens of cases" in Gaza in spite of specific High Court
prohibitions, usually at times of incursions. Case studies below
refute Israeli claims about respecting civilians, not using them as
shields, and abiding strictly according to international and its own
case law.
Israeli officials lie. As standard practice, they seize Palestinian
civilians randomly, including women and young children, then force
them into harm's way. Usually to:
-- let soldiers commandeer their homes as military posts and for
sniper positions;
-- check for possible booby-traps in buildings;
-- order occupants inside to leave;
-- remove suspicious objects anywhere soldiers may go;
-- shield them from gunfire or thrown rocks; and
-- perform whatever other tasks soldiers order under very real threats
they'll be shot if they refuse.
Orders to conduct these practices come from top commanders, not
soldiers in the field.
Case Study Examples - 2008 and 2009
Number 1
On July 10, 2008, the IDF forced Rana Mofeed Awad An-Nabaheen, age 11,
to visit a relative's house delivering orders to leave. On return, she
was shot in the stomach by other soldiers, unaware she was acting
under orders. Family member Mahir Hamdan Mheisin An-Nabaheen provided
eyewitness sworn testimony. At about 4:30AM, vehicles, helicopters and
gunfire woke him.
"I peeked through a window and saw Israeli soldiers breaking into my
family member's house and forcing them to get out." Rana delivered
orders to leave. He then heard heavy gunfire. "I peeked out and saw
Rana near the gate screaming and saying: 'I am injured.' I stepped
back into the house and gave her my hand....I pulled her back into the
house. The gunfire became heavier. I left Rana bleeding and took cover
behind a wall. Rana crawled two steps and lay on the floor....I saw
her entrails coming out of her abdomen.
A physician in military uniform came, brought a bandage, and put it on
her abdomen. The commander fastened Rana to a carrier, then ordered
two soldiers to carry her." This case is typical of many others.
Number 2
It involves the arrest of civilians, including a pregnant woman, from
the As-Sreij neighborhood in eastern Al-Qarara village in Khan Younis.
They were held in an agricultural field and forced to accompany
soldiers towards the separation border. The men were detained, women
and children ordered to leave. They were shot at en route, then used
as human shields during the operation. Out of fear of reprisals, the
witness remained anonymous.
On April 3, 2008, at 7:30AM, her husband wasn't answering his mobile
at the time an Israeli force entered the area where he was working.
She rushed there with his ID card. "When I was on my way, I heard
somebody shouting and ordering me to stop and come towards him....I
tried to explain that I had come to give my husband his ID card but
they threatened to shoot me."
"They led me to a room where I saw seven men and a woman with her two
daughters, who were detained. The men were handcuffed and blindfolded.
They handcuffed and blindfolded me. Then, they forced us to move out
of the room, pushing me with their hands and guns although I was
blindfolded and pregnant....They stopped for a while and took off my
blindfold....I saw them taking the men across the border, and then
heard one of them ordering us to leave the area....I heard heavy
gunfire."
"I had to crawl for a long time to leave the area....I found
(soldiers) who forced me to stop. I tried to explain what happened but
they threatened to shoot me and forced me to sit down with a child of
(a) family....One soldier forced the child to take his shirt off and
tied his hands with it. There were many explosions and intensive
firing."
"I managed to go home at around 13:00 on the same day. My husband
returned home at around 21:00 on the same day. I knew he was detained
in a military post close to the border line."
This is another human shield example that "demonstrates the complete
disregard of the soldiers for the life of a pregnant woman and her
unborn child." They were used as cover for Israeli forces to withdraw
from the area.
Other cases were of medical teams forced to carry out life-threatening
tasks, homes used as military posts and their residents as human
shields, and a 14 year old boy used for the same purpose.
On April 9, 2009, Al Mezan presented an updated report, containing
seven new case studies "based on comprehensive field investigations
and witness statements," these based on incidents during Operation
Cast Lead and one earlier in 2008.
"In endangering the lives of civilian men, women and children through
systematically using them as human shields, the (IDF committed) crimes
against humanity according to IHL." This is one of many violations
against non-combatant Palestinian civilians.
Number 1: 15-year-old child used as a human shield
After being used for that purpose, the child was detained in a hole in
the ground with about 100 others for four days. He now suffers from
serious mental health difficulties and refuses to speak to strangers.
With help from his parents, Al Mezan got him to tell his story and
presented excepts from it below. At home with his parents, he was
terrified by days of conflict.
"I was lying on the floor sheltering with my mother." His uncle then
said: 'Come downstairs.' "So we all went downstairs. As soon as we
opened the door, I saw a large number of soldiers. One of them was
pointing his weapon at me....I saw my uncle and brothers lined up
against the wall. I saw the soldier signaling at me to stand beside
them. So I did....he wanted me to put my hands up. So I did. Another
soldier came and searched me from top to bottom....He tied my hands to
the hands of the people next to me."
"I stood by the wall. A few minutes later one of the soldiers came and
kicked me. About two hours later, they ordered us to walk....they made
us go into Khalil al-Attar's house....Then they told us all go, as a
chain, into one of the rooms." They took us outside the house....I
heard the sound of a huge explosion in the area. From there they took
us to a farm."
"They made us sit on the ground until dawn the following day. Then
they took us outside the field (and) blindfolded my eyes....they led
us to a low-lying area. They made us sit on the ground....They tied my
hands in front of my stomach. They searched me a third time and made
me sit on the ground....After they took of my blindfold....I realized
where the low-lying area was. It was a hole made by Israeli
forces....south of the American school."
"We spent the whole night in this hole. I couldn't sleep. The weather
was really cold and I wasn't wearing a lot of clothing. We stayed in
this hole for four days....I could hear the sound of shooting and
explosions" close by. We got one meal each afternoon...."On the third
day I saw a soldier making a wire fence around the hole (and bring) a
lot of people to the hole until the number reached around 100. On the
morning of the fourth day, an Israeli soldier untied me, my brother
Ali, my cousins Hussein and Khalil. They told us and the women to go
to Jabalia.
Case 2: Majdi al-Abed Ahmed Abed Rabbo, male, age 40
On January 5 at 9:30AM, he was at home when he heard a loud sound and
someone say, "Open the door....I arrived at the door and opened it. I
was surprised to see an (IDF) soldier hiding behind a man in his
twenties and pointing a gun at me. He said in Arabic, 'Take off your
pants.' I took" them off. He ordered him to strip naked, then get
dressed. About "15 - 20 Israeli soldiers then entered the courtyard of
my house....one grabbed my neck from behind and put his gun to the
back of my head."
"Two other soldiers hid behind me....They told me to lead them to the
roof, where they searched pigeon coups that I keep in two rooms
there." A soldier then asked about the adjacent house, belonging to
his cousin and connected to his home by a common roof. "There's no
space between the two houses, just the wall."
"After that, one of the soldiers brought a demolition tool and said,
'Drill a hole there.'....Then three soldiers went through the hole to
(his cousin's) house." He was told to come as well along with more
soldiers, then told, "Get up. Get up," and grabbed violently. "I got
up and entered with them through the hole back to my roof, and they
all went as a group down the stairs. This happened quickly....The
whole group was running."
"The soldiers led me outside. I found myself in a mud road....One of
the soldiers was holding me and making me run with him. Another
soldier was bringing the young man with him the same way, and (he) had
his hands tied. They pushed me in the mosque through its main door to
the north....They tied my hands in front of my stomach and tied my
legs and sat me down (in one corner). We entered the house adjacent to
the mosque. They took us out and turned us toward another house," then
sat us down nearby.
In one house, a soldier said, there were gunmen and we killed them.
"Go take their clothes off and bring their guns and come back."
"I refused. I asked him to let me return to my family. I said to him:"
going into that house "means death, and I don't want to die." The
soldier responded, 'You are here to do what we tell you (and said)
Go.'
"I walked about 200 meters to the house....I went in...I went
alone....but couldn't find anyone. I expected the worst." He
encountered three armed men wearing badges saying Al Qassam Brigades.
He said he was forced to come. They told him to go back and say what
he saw - "three gunmen in the house, still alive....then the soldier
said to me, 'The officer says he's crazy and if you are lying to him
he swears by his mother he will shoot you."
"A short time later, I heard the sound of heavy gunfire nearby. Twenty
minutes passed....and a soldier said to me; 'We killed them now. Go
get them.' I refused. I told them that they had told me that if I
returned they would kill me, and he shouted at me: 'We killed them.' "
He went again and found one man seriously injured and bleeding and the
others alive. He reported back what he saw, then heard heavy gunfire
and a very loud explosion. A soldier said; 'Go and make sure they are
dead. We bombed the house again with planes...."With difficulty, I
entered the apartment. Inside, I saw the three men still living, but
they were under the rubble."
Majdi al-Abed Ahmed Abed Rabbo located his wife and children after the
IDF released him. His home was totally destroyed by military
bulldozers, and he's deeply distressed. Numerous other examples are
similar to his account - human shields illegally used by IDF soldiers
in violation of international law and Israel's High Court ruling.
Conclusions
The above cases are examples of customary Israeli practice in gross
violation of international law and Israel's High Court ruling. They
endanger civilian lives and cause "long-lasting psychological trauma."
IHL considers using civilian human shields a war crime and when used
systematically against non-combatants a crime against humanity. It's
essential to hold parties guilty of these crimes accountable as the
way to stop this heinous practice.
Al Mezan condemns Israel's disregard for the law and says that "the
continued failure of the international community to fulfill its
obligations and its silence on Israeli violations encourages" similar
acts in the future - by Israel and others engaged in this outrageous
practice.
- Stephen Lendman is a Chicago-based research associate of the Centre
for Research on Globalization. He lives in Chicago. Contact him at:
lendman...@sbcglobal.net. (Also visit his blog site at
sjlendman.blogspot.com and listen to The Global Research News Hour on
RepublicBroadcasting.org Monday - Friday at 10AM US Central time for
cutting-edge discussions with distinguished guests on world and
national issues.)
If you like this article, please consider making a contribution to the
Palestine Chronicle.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:15:59 -0800 (PST), iconocl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Nov 17, 3:28 am, Honest truth <Honest_tr...@Wisdom.net> wrote:
> >> As are you iconocl...@yahoo.com
>
> > Take it up with the author.
>
> Since you posted it you share in his foolishness
Ridiculous.
drahcir
indeed expelled."
On Nov 13, 4:42 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
coaste...@yahoo.com
> On Nov 17, 3:20 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 2:39 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 17, 2:24 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 17, 8:15 am, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
> > > > > indeed expelled."
>
> > > > No, no, Miss Ratner. That's not the way it works. This is the "Writing
> > > > on the Wall" thread. Do try to say something perceptive and
> > > > intellectually honest about Sever Plocker's article. Don't leave the
> > > > field to the rest of us. We do need a few fools such as you here and
> > > > there.
>
> > > > PS: Are you aware that Dr. Finkelstein is writing is writing a new
> > > > book on the coming collapse of Zionism?
>
> > > Well, for some strange reason, you didn't reply to me in the Atzmon
> > > thread, so I just want to make sure that you don't forget about it.
>
> > WHAT?!! You had someting to say? You? Not likely, Richard.
>
Weekend Edition
July 24-26, 2009
Symbolism and the Grotesque
Bruno: a Glimpse Into Zionism?
By GILAD ATZMON
Bruno, Sacha Baron Cohen’s latest invention is a grotesque Austrian
gay celebrity who comes to America to try to boost the ratings of his
fashion television program. Bruno is one of the most repugnant
characters ever to appear on the big screen, something Baron Cohen
probably takes pride in. Bruno is Cohen’s third gross character in
succession. At times it seems as if Cohen is seeking pleasure in being
repelling. After mimicking an ignoramus stereotype of a non-black
suburban male who revels in Black and Jamaican culture (Ali G) and a
Kazakh misogynist, racist buffoon and anti-Semite (Borat), Bruno can
be grasped as another creative attempt to challenge the Western
liberal discourse.
Those who insist on approving Cohen’s intellectual aspirations argue
in his favor that he manages to bring to light some of our inherent
Western diseases: racism (Ali G), xenophobia (Borat) and homophobia
(Bruno). I am slightly doubtful of such an interpretation of Cohen’s
intellectual endeavor. None of Cohen’s protagonists can evoke empathic
feelings amongst the people they harass. Instead they seem to compete
amongst themselves for the ultimate Vulgar Award. Whether it is Borat,
who approaches his host’s dinner table and his guests with his
excrement in a plastic bag, or Bruno, who shares with us his anally
intimate love games, Cohen’s protagonists are rejected for being truly
and genuinely disgusting.
Yes, Cohen’s characters can be entreating, they can make us laugh;
yet, the fact that they are rejected contemptibly is far from telling
about our society. However, these scenes may throw some light about
their creator, Mr Baron Borat Bruno Ali G Cohen and the social
conditions he himself is imbued in.
Two years ago while in the process of gathering information about
Cohen previous film Borat, I found out that Cohen had put back his
wedding to former Home and Away star Isla Fisher due to some deep
‘religious’ reasons. "The couple," so I learned, "have postponed the
big day so Isla could study the Bible in Israel before converting to
Sacha's religion of Judaism." This was enough to convince me at the
time that Cohen wasn’t that different from his chauvinistic, tribally-
orientated protagonist Borat. For those who fail to understand the
meaning of the above, Cohen is not just Jewish, he didn’t just ask his
fiancée to join his extended family, he didn’t send her to a London
Rabbi either. He really went for the ‘full Monty,’ that is: the
Israeli experience. Cohen is in fact a devout Zionist and it would be
interesting to elaborate and analyze his work from a Jewish Identity-
politics perspective.
Though Ali G, Borat and Bruno have nothing to do with Judaism or
Zionism, their identity struggle is, interestingly enough, a complete
repetition of the Zionist identity complex. As in the case of Zionism,
Ali G, Borat and Bruno are in a state of a complete dismissal of
others. As if this is not enough, they are also celebrating their
symptoms in public and at the expense of their victims.
Zionism, similarly, is a celebration of a newly-invented Jewish
Identity. The Zionists set themselves to do it all on the expense of
the Palestinian people. Until recently, some Zionist leaders refused
to acknowledge the existence of Palestinian people. Zionism is a
political setting that inherently dismisses others. One can look at
the IDF’s brutality towards Palestinians, another can reflect on David
Ben Gurion’s famous quote: “It doesn’t matter what the Goyim say, all
that matters is what Jews do”. Interestingly enough Ali G, Borat and
Bruno are celebrating a very similar form of dismissal. They are self-
centered protagonists who care mostly about themselves and their own
unique actions and symptoms.
However, as much as Bruno is by far Cohen’s most repulsive character
to date, he is also, emotionally at least, the most developed
character out of the three. Unlike Ali G and Borat, Bruno is self-
conscious. He has clear desires and he struggles to fill his inner
void. In fact the audience is mobilized as a witness to Bruno’s
evolving self-awareness. As great as Bruno’s desires are, his repeated
failures are no less than a total devastation. He is desperate to be
accepted as a celebrity. He would do whatever it takes to get there.
He would swap his iPod for an African cute little toddler just to
‘appear’ like Madonna; he would try to drag Ron Paul into a porn scene
just to hit the news with an ‘item’. He interprets success in symbolic
terms rather than anything that is related to merit.
Jewish nationalism is very similar. It is a project run by Israelis
who crave to be a people like other people. But for some bizarre
reason they fail to understand what the notion of ‘other people’
stands for. They can only understand it symbolically in terms of a set
of material identifiers.
When you ask an Israeli ‘how can you be so cruel to the Palestinians?’
The answer will be thrown back at you, “Haven’t the Americans been
cruel with their Indians? Didn’t the Brits do the same in India?”
The Israeli may even interpret state terrorism and barbarism as a
natural symbol of sovereignty.
Bruno yearns to be a celeb amongst celebrities. The Zionist is craving
to join the family of nations. Like Bruno, Zionists understand their
nationhood in symbolic terms, they have a flag, an air force, nuclear
bombs and wars. For some reason, it is just a genuine compassion which
they lack--probably because genuine feeling and authenticity cannot be
reduced into mere symbolism. It is the real love to their alleged
‘historic land’ which the Zionist fail to exhibit when shredding it
with walls of separation. Like the Zionist, Bruno is pretty much
stuck; he cannot transcend himself beyond the symbolic order. As much
as the Zionists find it difficult to become an ordinary nation
considering their symptoms (non-ethical existence together with racial
supremacy), Bruno finds it very hard to integrate into society
considering who he is (lacking ethical awareness and imbued in his gay
solipsistic (1) universe).
While in his early work Baron Cohen managed to fail to distinguish
between Identity and being, in his latest work he may have become
aware of this crucial dichotomy. Gay and homosexuality, for instance,
are very different categories. While ‘Gay’ refers to an Identity
largely associated with a set of symbolic identifiers, homosexuality
refers to a sexual preference.
Interestingly enough, throughout the film Bruno operates as a Gay
icon. He is totally imbued within the Gay symbolic realm, he swings
his buttocks without leaving any room for doubt about who he is and
what he stands for: he wears the right clothes and uses the right
manner of speech. But then, towards the very last scene, it all
changes, Bruno for the first time surrenders to his true authentic
sexual desire.
At a certain stage Bruno realises that in order to become a celebrity
he would have to be ‘straight’. In the final scene we meet Bruno in a
wrestling arena surrounded by rednecks. Bruno, the natural chameleon
(2), is now an anti-Gay macho figure. He manages to evoke cheers from
his new crowd by spitting some rabid homophobic statements. For a
second it works. For the first time in the film Bruno is accepted by
his surrounding social reality. Very much like the Assimilated Jew
who follows Moses Mendelssohn’s (3) line of thought ‘be a Goy in the
street and a Jew in your dwelling’, Bruno is mimicking the ‘straight’
on stage while keeping his true identity hidden, but the truth is
chasing him and cannot be concealed.
All of a sudden, his ex-assistant, an authentic homosexual who has
been loving Bruno all the way through appears from the crowd. “You are
Gay” he shouts to Bruno as he makes his way through the throng. The
assistant's role in the film is similar to Herzl’s and Weizmann’s
task within the Zionist epic narrative. Herzl and Weizmann are there
to tell their fellow assimilated Jews, ‘stop pretending at being
American, French, British, Bolsheviks, Cosmopolitans and Atheists, you
are primarily Jews and you better behave accordingly.’
In the film it doesn’t take more than a few seconds before Bruno and
his assistant depart into a same-sex act of genuine love making.
Seemingly, for the first time Bruno follows his heart rather than
banal symbolism. This is obviously a repetition of the Zionist
message. As opposed to Mendelssohn deceitful dualism, the Zionists
would tell their followers: do not pretend to be a Goy, do not pretend
to be a cosmopolitan, do not pretend to be a Marxist, just surrender
to your real and true Jewish reality.
But here we do encounter a slight problem. While Bruno has a
homosexual reality to safely land upon, it is not clear at all whether
there is any Jewish coherent genuine reality except Judaism. The
Jewish socialist identity (bund) collapsed half a century ago. The
Zionists had been trying to claim a valid and coherent Jewish national
secular identity, but all they really present us with is merciless
conduct and a barbarian state terrorism that have very little in
common with humanity. If there is a Jewish humanist school, the nature
of its (uniquely Jewish) value system remains unclear. The lack of a
coherent and consistent Jewish secular Identity may explain why all
forms of Jewish secularity are highly engaged in symbolism. Whether it
is Zionism, Jewish anti-Zionism, Jewish secularism or even Jewish
humanism, it is almost always engaged in conveying a symbolic image
rather than aiming at the real thing (4).
As much as I find it hard to cope with Cohen’s latest repugnant
character, I may as well have to admit that in light of the above
realizations of Bruno as an insightful metaphor, the film may not be
that bad after all.
Gilad Aztmon is a writer and jazz musician living in London. His
latest cd is In Loving Memory of America.
1. Solipstic: the belief that the only thing somebody can be sure of
is that he or she exists, and that true knowledge of anything else is
impossible
2. Not only is Bruno is a chameleon he is also invented and performed
by Britain's NO 1 chameleon namely Cohen.
3. Moses Mendelssohn (September 6, 1729 – January 4, 1786) was a
Jewish thinker largely associated with Haskalah (Jewish Enlightenment)
and with ideas to do with Jewish assimilation.
4. Judaism is also saturated with symbolism, yet, one would expect
that Jewish secularization would lead towards an authenticity that
goes beyond mere symbolism.
drahcir
special cases, for instance, you. I sacrifice my principles in your
case for the entertainment value.
Now that we've dispensed with the formalities, there's still the
little matter of exactly when you are going to gain the courage to
reply to this:
From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
indeed expelled."
On Nov 13, 4:42 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
drahcir
Ooh, lookee here, the ball-less coquette is coyly attempting to refute
my proof. Surely, little H, you must understand that refutation
involves more than a montypythonesque one-liner. It's not enough to
say my analysis is wrong, you must demonstrate where and how it is
wrong. Here, I'll make it easier for you - I'll snip my own post to
focus in on my assertion. You, then, can go at it - tear it apart -
knock yourself out. If your argument is convincing, I hereby state to
the group that I will admit I was wrong. Sound fair?
For your convenience:
<snip for focus>
From Atzmon's article:
> Haaretz reported today that the Israeli PM admitted in Washington that
> he was committed to ‘two states living side by side’. However, he
> stressed that the “the right of Palestinian refugees to return to the
> homes from which they were expelled, would not be on the table.”
It is crystal clear that Atzmon wants the reader to think that the
above quote is the words of Netanyahu, and HHW bought it hook, line,
and sinker. Problem is that it isn't. Here is a quote from the
original Haaretz article:
"In his address, Netanyahu also appeared to resist U.S. pressure to
promote the two-state solution. He said he was committed to two states
living side by side, but stressed that the central issues - the right
of Palestinian refugees to return to the homes from which they were
expelled and certain territorial claims - would not be on the table."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127420.html
As anyone can see, nowhere does the article state or imply that
Netanyahu made the statement quoted in the Atzmon article. From the
Haaretz article, we have no idea about the words Netanyahu used and,
since there is no quote provided, whether he even stated the ideas
that Haaretz says he stated. The concept of expulsion is clearly that
of Ms. Mozgovaya, the author of the article, not of Netanyahu. Even
the idea of "central issues" is not Netanyahu's, but rather
Mozgovaya's.
************
I give the floor to you, H. Don't pee on it.
dsharavi
> wrote:
> > Haaretz reported today that the Israeli PM admitted in Washington that
> > he was committed to ‘two states living side by side’. However, he
> > stressed that the “the right of Palestinian refugees to return to the
> > homes from which they were expelled, would not be on the table.”
On Nov 18, 8:24 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is crystal clear that Atzmon wants the reader to think that the
> above quote is the words of Netanyahu, and HHW bought it hook, line,
> and sinker. Problem is that it isn't. Here is a quote from the
> original Haaretz article:
>
> "In his address, Netanyahu also appeared to resist U.S. pressure to
> promote the two-state solution. He said he was committed to two states
> living side by side, but stressed that the central issues - the right
> of Palestinian refugees to return to the homes from which they were
> expelled and certain territorial claims - would not be on the table."
>
> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127420.html
>
> As anyone can see, nowhere does the article state or imply that
> Netanyahu made the statement quoted in the Atzmon article.
He didn't. Atzmon lied.
> From the
> Haaretz article, we have no idea about the words Netanyahu used and,
> since there is no quote provided, whether he even stated the ideas
> that Haaretz says he stated.
Fortunately, Haaretz provided the full text of Netanyahu's 9th
November speech to the Jewish Federations of North America General
Assembly, in an article titled, imaginatively, "Full text of
Netanyahu's speech at Jewish Federations of North America GA".
> The concept of expulsion is clearly that
> of Ms. Mozgovaya, the author of the article, not of Netanyahu.
Definitely.
> Even
> the idea of "central issues" is not Netanyahu's, but rather
> Mozgovaya's.
You get the brass ring again.
What Netanyahu actually said about his "commitment" to "two states
living side by side", plus the soi-dissant "right of return" being on
the table (or off it), is in one of the following paragraphs. See if
you can find which one:
[...]
"Peace could usher in a new age of economic progress for the benefit
of all. We have already signed peace agreements, two of them, with
Egypt and Jordan. And we are eager to achieve peace with all our other
neighbors, especially with the Palestinians.
"I believe there is no time to waste. We need to move towards peace
with a sense of urgency and a sense of purpose. I want to be clear. My
goal is not to have endless negotiations. My goal is not negotiations
for negotiations sake. My goal is to reach a peace treaty, and soon.
"But to get a peace agreement, we must start negotiating. Let's stop
talking about negotiations. Let's start moving.
"This past June at Bar-Ilan University, I put forward a vision of
peace that has united the vast majority of Israelis.
"In this vision of two states for two peoples, a demilitarized
Palestinian state would recognize the Jewish state.
"Now, what do I mean by a Jewish state? It is a state in which all
individuals and all minorities have equal individual rights. Yet our
national symbols, language and culture spring from the heritage of the
Jewish people. And most important, any Jew from anywhere in the world
has a right to immigrate to Israel and become a citizen.
"I want to make it clear: Any Jew, of any denomination, will always
have the right to come home to the Jewish state. Religious pluralism
and tolerance will always guide my policy.
"What does a Jewish state mean for the Palestinians? They must abandon
the fantasy of flooding Israel with refugees, give up irredentist
claims to the Negev and Galilee, and declare unequivocally that the
conflict is finally over.
"Yet, even after we achieve peace it may take years for the spirit of
peace to permeate most levels of Palestinian society. Therefore, any
peace agreement we sign today must include ironclad security measures
that will protect the State of Israel."
[...]
--From Haaretz, Full text of Netanyahu's speech at Jewish Federations
of North America GA
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127027.html
Found it yet?
Next, we shall be fascinated to learn how Atzmon is the only bebop
jazz musician-cum-punk rocker who is, and has always been, clear and
clean and sober.
Deborah
Honest truth
> On Nov 18, 3:19 am, Honest truth <Honest_tr...@Wisdom.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:15:59 -0800 (PST), iconocl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Nov 17, 3:28 am, Honest truth <Honest_tr...@Wisdom.net> wrote:
>>>> As are you iconocl...@yahoo.com
>>
>>> Take it up with the author.
>>
>> Since you posted it you share in his foolishness
>
> Ridiculous.
I think you are being just silly here as you never wrote when you posted
that this comment is silly, so its implied that you agree with it.
dsharavi
> > > > Well, for some strange reason, you didn't reply to me in the Atzmon
> > > > thread, so I just want to make sure that you don't forget about it.
> > On Nov 17, 3:20 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > > WHAT?!! You had someting to say? You? Not likely, Richard.
> On Nov 17, 4:36 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
[drahcir's reply here apparently snipped by H]
On Nov 18, 7:37 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Well, here's one by Atzmon especially tailored to your predelictions.
This should be good.
> Weekend Edition
> July 24-26, 2009
> Symbolism and the Grotesque
> Bruno: a Glimpse Into Zionism?
> By GILAD ATZMON
Atzmon should know about symbolism and the grotesque, but probably
doesn't.
> Two years ago while in the process of gathering information about
> Cohen previous film Borat, I found out that Cohen had put back his
> wedding to former Home and Away star Isla Fisher due to some deep
> ‘religious’ reasons. "The couple," so I learned, "have postponed the
> big day so Isla could study the Bible in Israel before converting to
> Sacha's religion of Judaism." This was enough to convince me at the
> time that Cohen wasn’t that different from his chauvinistic, tribally-
> orientated protagonist Borat. For those who fail to understand the
> meaning of the above, Cohen is not just Jewish, he didn’t just ask his
> fiancée to join his extended family, he didn’t send her to a London
> Rabbi either. He really went for the ‘full Monty,’ that is: the
> Israeli experience.
Wow! Atzmon proves himself an Investigative journalist on a par with,
um [insert name]:
Wikipedia:
"Sacha Baron Cohen was born in England, the youngest of three sons in
a Jewish family.[3] His mother was born in Israel while his father was
originally from Wales.[4] Baron Cohen's paternal grandfather was born
in Pontypridd, Wales, and his maternal grandmother, who now lives in
Haifa, Israel, was a ballet dancer originally from Germany.[5][6][7]"
"Baron Cohen is engaged to the Australian actress Isla Fisher. After
three years of study, Isla converted to Judaism in early 2007, and has
received the approval of Baron Cohen's observant Jewish parents.[43]
On 19 October 2007 Isla gave birth to a baby girl named Olive Baron
Cohen in Los Angeles, California, USA.[44]"
London Evening Standard
"I is marrying me Julie"
by Richard Simpson and Clair Weaver
04 March 2004
As Ali G himself would put it, I is marrying me Julie.
The man behind Da West Staines Massive, Sacha Baron Cohen, is to marry
his girlfriend, Australian actress Isla Fisher, in a Jewish ceremony
in Britain.
The couple - together for the past two years - will tie the knot in a
traditional ceremony after Sacha's devout Jewish parents gave them
their blessing.
Fisher, who starts filming The Wedding Crashers in Los Angeles next
week, told the Standard: "I will definitely have a Jewish wedding just
to be with Sacha."
The former Home and Away star added: "I would do anything - move into
any religion - to be united in marriage with him. We have a future
together, and religion comes second to love as far as we are
concerned."
There had been reports the couple had problems in their relationship
over setting a date. Baron Cohen, 33, is said to have proposed months
ago, but had problems finding the time.
This was said to be particularly galling for Fisher, 28, who has spent
many hours studying Hebrew texts after pledging to convert to Judaism.
But when asked when the marriage will happen, she blushed and said: "I
cannot say much more - sorry."
Fisher, who was talking at the Hampstead premiere of Suzie Gold, went
on: "Sacha is in Los Angeles at the moment - and I am joining him out
there. I don't think we'll move to LA - we love Britain too much."
Both Baron Cohen and Fisher have been spending extended periods in LA
in recent months because of work. His first series in America - Ali G
In Da USA - was a runaway success, being nominated for three Emmy
awards and named third best show of the year by the New York Times.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-9474353-i-is-marrying-me-julie.do
Celebrity Baby Blog
November 6, 2007
Introducing Olive Cohen
Australian-born actress Isla Fisher, 31, and British comedian Sacha
Baron Cohen, 36, took their new daughter Olive, 3 weeks tomorrow, to
Malibu’s Bluffs Park last week. The couple welcomed their daughter in
LA on October 17th.
http://celebrity-babies.com/2007/11/06/introducing-oli-2/
Hats off to Gilad Atzmon for uncovering these deep secrets.
Deborah
Fish Supper
****
May I?
"But in this case there was definitely use of phosphorus ammunition. I do
recall, though, that looking north we saw Giv'ati infantry troops in
Zaytoun, and witnessed quite a lot of phosphorus being used. I can't tell to
what extent that use was actually necessary operationally, and whether it
was done inside the inhabited area.
It looked that way, but it could also have been� Phosphorus was definitely
used there, I saw this and you cannot go wrong, you actually see the flaming
umbrellas. "
Fish Supper
Unlike you, H, I don't read stuff written by proven liars, except in
special cases, for instance, you. I sacrifice my principles in your
case for the entertainment value.
***
Why would you need to? You make up all your own lies.
"According to B'Tselem's investigation, a-Tawil entered Israel though the
Mevo Beitar checkpoint at around 5:00 A.M. After he finished filling up at
the Sonol Ya'ar Beitar gas station, some 200 meters from the checkpoint,
three soldiers arrived at the gas station and ordered him to go over to
them. A-Tawil spoke with the soldiers for a few minutes and handed over his
identification documents. The soldiers took the documents to the checkpoint
but a-Tawil did not accompany them and left the gas station.
After driving west for about two kilometers, he entered the Delek
Mevo-Beitar gas station. A few minutes later, on his way out of the gas
station, an army jeep containing five soldiers blocked his exit. A-Tawil
tried to go around the jeep from the left. As he did, a soldier got out of
the jeep and fired at his car. When a-Tawil continued driving, the other
four soldiers got out and all five fired at a-Tawil, firing a total of about
twenty bullets and killing him. The car swerved to the right and into a low
area on the side of the road. "
Fish Supper
From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
indeed expelled."
Avoid, deflect, deny & lie - you're a real zionist, Dicky.
You've been shown to be a complete clown by both myself and now iconoclast.
Instance after instance after instance of Iraeli brutality and war crimes
and you have no response other than your usual bug-eyed, hysterical
inststance of 'no, they didn't" - no proof, no explanation, no counter
argument, just the dogmatic, repetition of a denial.
You're a complete dick, Dick.
"Yonatan was shocked into his refusal to obey orders by two occurrences,
among others.
One was the action of a fellow Israeli pilot who fired a 1-ton bomb from his
F16 fighter jet, as ordered, at a house in Al-Deredg, where a suspected
Palestinian terrorist was staying. Yonatan identifies Al Deredg as one of
the most crowded districts of Gaza, and indeed of the world. Besides the
targeted Palestinian, 13 local people were killed in that attack: 2 men, 2
women, and 9 children, one of whom was 2 years old. 160 other people were
wounded in the explosion. A 1-ton bomb, Yonatan calculates, has
approximately 100 times the explosive power of the type of lethal belts worn
by Palestinian suicide bombers. "
Fish Supper
"dsharavi" <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ed8d38cd-d646-4233...@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Deborah
***
Some 40 Lebanese civilians have reportedly been killed in Israeli air
strikes and artillery shelling against villages in South Lebanon .
Among the Lebanese victims were a family of ten, including eight children,
who were killed in Dweir village, near Nabatiyeh, and a family of seven,
including a seven-month-old baby, who were killed in Baflay village near
Tyre.
drahcir
> "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:febf60db-22fa-44f6...@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
> indeed expelled."
>
> Avoid, deflect, deny & lie - you're a real zionist, Dicky.
From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
indeed expelled."
How gallant of you to try to snip away that to which our petite
coquette HHW is too shy to reply. I regret that I will have to replace
it, and implore you not to engage in such dishonest behavior anymore.
<snip for focus>
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127420.html
>
> You've been shown to be a complete clown by both myself and now iconoclast.
My, my, your estimation of both of you is, ahem, unique.
>
> Instance after instance after instance of Iraeli brutality and war crimes
> and you have no response
Fish, you're getting yourself all worked up. A person in your
condition needs to try to stay calm. I've replied, but when someone so
out of his mind as you looks at "beside" and sees "in front", well,
that person would do best to seek psychiatric care.
Fish Supper
On Nov 19, 6:29 am, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
> "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:febf60db-22fa-44f6...@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
> indeed expelled."
>
> Avoid, deflect, deny & lie - you're a real zionist, Dicky.
> Instance after instance after instance of Iraeli brutality and war crimes
> and you have no response
Fish, you're getting yourself all worked up. A person in your
condition needs to try to stay calm. I've replied, but when someone so
out of his mind as you looks at "beside" and sees "in front", well,
that person would do best to seek psychiatric care.
***
lie, deflect & deny - you just can't help yourself can you, Dick?
"The most spine-chilling face of Israel�s occupation comes in the form of
Apache helicopters. The mere sight of one causes pandemonium in the streets.
People scramble to take cover. No one feels safe. Apache missions almost
always set out to murder individuals who are unilaterally declared to be
�threats to Israel�s security.�
In the process of executing people without any due process, innocent
bystanders are killed as well. They were either unfortunate enough to be in
the area when the assault took place, or were administering aid to the
victims of the initial onslaught. These innocent human beings get tacked
onto the mounting �collateral damage� pile."
dsharavi
> > > > > Well, for some strange reason, you didn't reply to me in the Atzmon
> > > > > thread, so I just want to make sure that you don't forget about it.
> > > On Nov 17, 3:20 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > WHAT?!! You had someting to say? You? Not likely, Richard.
> > On Nov 17, 4:36 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
[massive unattributed snippage by fishgut, to be followed by his usual
deflections]
> "dsharavi" <dshara...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Hats off to Gilad Atzmon for uncovering these deep secrets.
> Deborah
On Nov 19, 4:11 am, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
> ***
> Some 40 Lebanese civilians have reportedly been killed in Israeli air
> strikes and artillery shelling against villages in South Lebanon .
This breaking news from July 2006 is followed by film at 11. Stay
tuned for more blasts from the past.
Deborah
coaste...@yahoo.com
> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:10:41 -0800 (PST), iconocl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Nov 18, 3:19 am, Honest truth <Honest_tr...@Wisdom.net> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:15:59 -0800 (PST), iconocl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> On Nov 17, 3:28 am, Honest truth <Honest_tr...@Wisdom.net> wrote:
> >>>> As are you iconocl...@yahoo.com
>
> >>> Take it up with the author.
>
> >> Since you posted it you share in his foolishness
>
> > Ridiculous.
>
> I think you are being just silly here as you never wrote when you posted
> that this comment is silly, so its implied that you agree with it.
I''m an anti-Communist. I once posted the Communist Manifesto. What
conclusion do you draw from that?
coaste...@yahoo.com
> "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:3486e1be-76ae-401c...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 18, 4:42 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 17, 4:36 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 17, 3:20 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 17, 2:39 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Nov 17, 2:24 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Nov 17, 8:15 am, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ************
> I give the floor to you, H. Don't pee on it.
>
> ****
>
> May I?
Pee on Miss Ratner's floor? Of course.
> "But in this case there was definitely use of phosphorus ammunition. I do
> recall, though, that looking north we saw Giv'ati infantry troops in
> Zaytoun, and witnessed quite a lot of phosphorus being used. I can't tell to
> what extent that use was actually necessary operationally, and whether it
> was done inside the inhabited area.
> It looked that way, but it could also have been… Phosphorus was definitely
coaste...@yahoo.com
> "dsharavi" <dshara...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
The Israeli Rabbis say it's okay to kill dangerous babies. Are you
against freedom of religion in a Jewish State?
_ G O D _
news:62ba1930-7706-4c4b...@h14g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>"Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
>
>> Some 40 Lebanese civilians have reportedly been killed in Israeli air
>> strikes and artillery shelling against villages in South Lebanon .
>> Among the Lebanese victims were a family of ten, including eight children,
>> who were killed in Dweir village, near Nabatiyeh, and a family of seven,
>> including a seven-month-old baby, who were killed in Baflay village near
>> Tyre.
>
> The Israeli Rabbis say it's okay to kill dangerous babies.
> Are you against freedom of religion in a Jewish State?
It's about time for Israel to kill those civilians who
murdering Israeli babies by bomb-shelling them....
--
_____________________________________________________
I intend to last long enough to put out of business all COck-suckers
and other beneficiaries of the institutionalized slavery and genocide.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The army that will defeat terrorism doesn't wear uniforms, or drive
Humvees, or calls in air-strikes. It doesn't have a high command, or
high security, or a high budget. The army that can defeat terrorism
does battle quietly, clearing minefields and vaccinating children. It
undermines military dictatorships and military lobbyists. It subverts
sweatshops and special interests.Where people feel powerless, it
helps them organize for change, and where people are powerful, it
reminds them of their responsibility." ~~~~ Author Unknown ~~~~
___________________________________________________
--
coaste...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Your interest is Atzmon? Good, he's prolific. From his website:
New New New
A reply to the Ultra Zionist Smear campaigner David Hirsh, Guardian
CIF
The Labels:
Atzmon the Self-Hating Jew - I recently won the Jewish Chronicle’s
‘Self-Hating Jew Weekly Award’ (The Jewish Chronicle 24/6/2005 Diary
column, Simon Round).
My comment: If there is a political Jew within me, I do indeed fight
him to the bitter end. But then, rather than viewing such a battle as
a symptom of a pathological mental state, I tend to regard it as a
healthy progressive dialectic procedure.
Atzmon the Racist - This is a statement published in various places.
Mark Elf, a 3rd category Jew who has his own blog is totally convinced
that I am ‘deeply racist and Anti-Semitic’ . This very idea was
repeated lately by David Aaronovitch, another fellow Zionist
journalist who specialises in collecting broken bits of information
from London’s Jewish web sites.
My comment: There is not a single racist remark in any of my political
writings or in my performances. I do not refer to any form of
biological determinism. I have never written about race or referred to
it whatsoever. Moreover, I have never supported any form of
discrimination against Jews or anyone else. If anything, I support
total equality. I would admit though that my fictional characters are
often enough racist to the bone, but it is exactly their racism which
I ridicule.
Atzmon the Anti-Semite - rather often I am accused by left Jews of
being an Anti-Semite.
My comment: I am an anti Zionist and oppose the Zionist mindset. I
look at questions of Jewish identity and I do question the ties
between a Jewish world view and Zionism. I refute totally that I am
anti-Semite. In fact I also believe that the current concept of an
Anti-Semitism is meaningless.
Once the Zionists had managed to establish their Jewish state, any
form of anti Jewish sentiments should be comprehended either as a
private case of xenophobia or as a political retaliation to Israeli/
Zionist atrocities. In other words, the title Anti-Semite became an
‘empty signifier, i.e. a signifier with a vague, highly variable,
unspecifiable or non-existent signified. It is an empty verbal
utterance that exists merely to serve a political cause (very much
like Blair’s WMD and Bush’s Axis of Evil). Because Anti-Semite is an
empty signifier, no one actually can be an Anti-Semite and this
includes me of course. In short, you are either a racist which I am
not or have an ideological disagreement with Zionism, which I have.
Atzmon the Holocaust Denier - In a letter to Bookmarks, a Socialist
bookshop in London, Tony Greenstein, a British Jewish ethnic activist,
as well as a 3rd category man, stated that he called for a picket
against the bookshop during my appearance. In the official position
letter he labeled me as the 'Holocaust Denier Gilad Atzmon'.
My comment: 3rd category Jews love the Holocaust, therefore, some of
them spend a lot of time searching for its deniers. Greenstein is no
doubt a Holocaust denier hunter. Anyhow, on the same day, after being
warned that such an accusation against me may cause him some legal
complication, Greenstein caved in and dropped the 'Holocaust denier'
accusation. Greenstein presents himself as a Jewish Marxist. I don’t
know whether he understands Marxist dialectics, clearly he understands
the language of materialism. Once it was down to his pocket, he was
very quick to retreat.
Anyhow, such an accusation is very unusual, considering the clear fact
that there is not even a single reference to Holocaust denial in any
of my writings. I must assume that it is a label that is used by
people of the 3rd category as a Zionist-shield. Zionists do insist on
preventing any discussion of the topic beyond the standard narrative.
Seemingly, the 3rd category Jewish Marxists do operate as a Zionist
fig leaf.
Saying that, I must admit that I have many doubts concerning the
Zionist Holocaust narrative. Being familiar with many of the
discrepancies within the forcefully imposed narrative, being fully
familiar with the devastating tale of the extensive collaboration
between the Nazis and the Zionists before and throughout the Second
World War, I know pretty well that the official Holocaust narrative is
there to conceal rather than to reveal any truth. But it isn’t only a
historical matter. It is evident that the Holocaust raises an ethical
question. Considering the scale of the post Holocaust Jewish trauma we
must question how is it that people who suffered so much (Jews) can
inflict so much pain on other people (Palestinians).
I may even take it one step further. Since the Palestinians are the
last victims of Hitler, we aren't able to isolate the Holocaust
narrative from the Palestinian cause. The natives of Palestine bear
the consequences of the Jewish disastrous history. However, I really
want to believe that Palestinians will be liberated before the
Holocaust narrative drifts and settles as a reasonable historical
account. Clearly we aren’t there at the moment.
NEWS NEWS NEWS (13.6.06), Tony Greenstein has now changed his mind. He
wrote to me telling me that my "Ideas re the Holocaust are spot
on" !!! To read more
NEWS NEWS NEWS Tony Greenstein doesn't want me to mention his past but
I just can't stop myself. To read more
Atzmon the Holocaust Denier Apologist - Roland Rance, another proper
3rd category Jewish Marxist came with a novel solution. Rather than
calling me a 'Holocaust denier', which is a little sticky legally, he
went for the mild version, ‘a holocaust denier apologist’.
My Comment: For those who didn’t read my latest book, it is in fact
all about Roland Rance and his crypto Zionist brothers. Some Jews
cannot live without Hitler. This applies mainly to the left Jews.
While the right wing Zionist decided to live by their sword, the
modern Jewish leftist, the one who abandoned God, the one who saw the
fall of Stalinist Moscow, is searching for essentiality. For Rance,
Greenstein, Elf and others, the Holocaust is the new Jewish religion.
For a while I have been asking myself whether they are going to drop
the Chicken soup out of their diet and adopt some alternative gulag's
dishes instead. As we know, Jewish cuisine bears some significant
historic symbolism. The 'maza' is a reminder of the endless march in
the desert, the 'fish head' is there to encourage some supremacist
thinking ('we shall all be in the head rather than in the tail'), the
'falafel' stands for the colonization of Palestine, etc.
NEWS NEWS NEWS: Rance and Greenstein were humiliated at the PSC
Atzmon the non-racist Anti-Semite - I've come across this bizarre
label lately.
My comment: This is basically a contradiction in terms (a non-racist
racist). I thought that this contradictory title should be presented
just to prove that the Zionist's smear world goes far beyond any
recognized logical pattern. In the Zionist world 'A and no A' is a
valid possibility.
Atzmon the Communist - While the 3rd category Jewish Marxists accuse
me of being a right wing racist, their right wing brothers refer to me
as 'the red communist'.
My Comment: Although I am sympathetic to Marxist ideology, I argue
that material and colonial discourse is far too limited to enlighten
the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I am searching for answers in other
places rather than mere working class politics.
Atzmon, Proponent of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion - I am
occasionally accused by right and left Jews for counting on the old
Tsarist forgery.
My comment: In fact it is the other way around. I argue that the
Protocols are completely irrelevant. Zionist lobbies all over the
world are manifestly engaged in global politics and international
murderous tactics. It isn’t solely the Palestinians who are victims of
Zionist logic. All throughout its history, Zionism was supporting the
most malicious Colonial Forces. This is the essence of political
Zionism, i.e. whatever is good for the Jews is good.
A few months ago I exposed some extracts of an inner Zionist elder
cell in North West Yahoo If you want to learn how they operate just
follow the above link.
Atzmon the Endorser of the Burning of Synagogues – I was accused of
suggesting at the London School of Oriental and African Studies that
burning synagogues is a rational act.
My comment: If there was any truth in such an accusation, I would be
sitting behind bars for inciting a racial crime. Needless to say, I
wasn’t even approached by the Metropolitan Police. Anyhow, the
following is my comment to the Observer about the event:
‘By no means did I justify any form of violence against Jews, Jewish
interests or any innocent people. In the School of Oriental and
African Studies we were debating the question of rationality of anti-
semitism. I claimed that since Israel presents itself as the 'state of
the Jewish people', and bearing in mind the atrocities committed by
the Jewish state against the Palestinians, any form of anti-Jewish
activity may be seen as political retaliation. This does not make it
right’. (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/
0,,1468961,00.html).
Atzmon the Propagator of the Myth of Jews being Christ killers.
My comment: Jews being Christ killers isn’t a myth. It is rather a
historical and a theological narrative. Whether it is true or not
isn’t my concern. However, I do question the similarities between the
‘Passion of Christ’ and the passion of the Palestinian people. I do
question as well how come Jews feel offended when associated with a
crime committed by their ancestors two thousand years ago. I question
the repeated Jewish tendency to crucify their messengers. They did it
to Christ, to Spinoza, to Chomsky, these days to Finkelstein and
Shamir. There is a well maintained Jewish web site dedicated to ‘those
who hate themselves’ and must be nailed to the wood. Pay them a visit
and judge for yourself.
Atzmon the nutcase, Atzmon the crackpot, Atzmon the loose screw,
Atzmon the loose cannon, Atzmon can’t play the Sax, Atzmon and Atzmon
and Atzmon and....
My comment: I must have hit a nerve there. I struck a chord and I will
strike again and again. More than anything else, I am a Jazz musician.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> From the thread "Netanyahu admitted today that Palestinians were
> indeed expelled."
>
> On Nov 13, 4:42 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > From the River to the Sea. By Gilad Atzmon
> > 2009 November 11
> > by kanan48
> > .Via: Gilad Atzmon.
>
> Everyone here knows that HHW, whose latest pretentious alias is
> "iconoclast", is a willful ignoramus with regard to Israel, choosing
> to rely on a handful of completely unobjective sources, including
> Finklestein and Atzmon. Here is PROOF that Atzmon is a liar, and by
> implication, HHW is therefore a naive, silly old fool.
Atzmon:
"What is it in Jews that paralyses their brains and turns them into
imbeciles when they are gathered together?" asks the fictional preface
to this provocative debut novel from Gilad Atzmon."
Fish Supper
"icono...@yahoo.com" <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c5b40c89-f7c4-4a9d...@f20g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> It looked that way, but it could also have been� Phosphorus was definitely
> used there, I saw this and you cannot go wrong, you actually see the
> flaming
> umbrellas. "
I rain on his parade often enough, iconoclast, no need to pee on his floor,
too. After all, wanton vandalism and damage to private property is a zionist
tactic with which we should have no truck ;)
Fish Supper
Why on earth would you think I would limit my evidence of Israeli brutality
to 2009?
I have over 60 years of material to work with after all.
drahcir
wrote:
> On Nov 19, 6:37 am, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:3486e1be-76ae-401c...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> > On Nov 18, 4:42 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 17, 4:36 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 17, 3:20 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Nov 17, 2:39 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Nov 17, 2:24 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Nov 17, 8:15 am, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ************
> > I give the floor to you, H. Don't pee on it.
>
> > ****
>
> > May I?
>
> Pee on Miss Ratner's floor? Of course.
I gave you the floor, H, but you couldn't do anything with it. Big
surprise. I'm curious, how does it feel to be scared to post a reply
to someone?
dsharavi
wrote:
> The Israeli Rabbis say it's okay to kill dangerous babies.
Bullshit.
Deborah
fla...@verizon.net
On 19-Nov-2009, drahcir <justrich...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 19, 4:01�pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > On Nov 19, 6:37�am, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I give the floor to you, H. Don't pee on it.
> >
> > > ****
> >
> > > May I?
> >
> > Pee on Miss Ratner's floor? Of course.
>
> I gave you the floor, H, but you couldn't do anything with it.
Except to ask to urinate on it.
And yet these pathetic sickos demand to be taken
seriously as anything but the impotent losers they are.
Just shows you the utter ruin that bigot "intelligence" is.
Susan
Fish Supper
Bullshit.
Deborah
***
Stunning retort, Debbie - Is this Dicky's superior jewish IQ at work?
Fish Supper
On Nov 19, 4:01 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On Nov 19, 6:37 am, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:3486e1be-76ae-401c...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> > On Nov 18, 4:42 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 17, 4:36 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 17, 3:20 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Nov 17, 2:39 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Nov 17, 2:24 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com"
> > > > > > <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Nov 17, 8:15 am, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > ************
> > I give the floor to you, H. Don't pee on it.
>
> > ****
>
> > May I?
>
> Pee on Miss Ratner's floor? Of course.
I gave you the floor, H, but you couldn't do anything with it. Big
surprise. I'm curious, how does it feel to be scared to post a reply
to someone?
***
why would you be curious? - you've failed to post a reply about white
phosphorous, human shields and anything else you've been asked, Dick.
You have failed to confront a single one of the dozens of pieces of evidence
of Israeli war crimes, prefering to make some adolescent non sequitur before
running away, in true IDF stylee
Are you scared, intellectually overstretched or just unable to counter the
truth?
Come on Dicky! We expect more from the pond life that can turn a photo of a
palestinian teenager being used as a human shield into one where the heroic
IDF is actually 'protecting the prisoner' - quite why a prisoner would be
placed front and centre of a fire fight was never explained, but then
zionists don't do 'truth', do they?
drahcir
Sorry, Fish, but you appear to be insane, because no matter how many
times I reply to you about wp and hs, you say that I've failed to
reply. Shall I provide links to my replies and prove you a loony toon?
Just say the word.
drahcir
> "dsharavi" <dshara...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I think the appropriate question to ask is why are you digging for
muslim deaths from 2006 when muslim women and children are being
killed en masse in markets nearly every day in Afghanistan, Pakistan,
or Iraq - by muslims. You don't give a shit about muslims, Fish. You
just hate jews. The funniest thing is that you apparently have spent
your golden years scouring the web and pulling meaningless ditties
that are most often laughable. Why not read a credible history of
Israel - A BOOK - sometime? Ever considered it? Of course not. Your a
willful ignoramus, like most of your ilk.
American Eagle
If that were true every Jew and Arab baby would be put to the sword.
>
>
Fish Supper
***
lie, deny, deflect.
Dick, Dick, dick - You are such a racist and a bigot that you are incapable
of understanding that a person's religion is of no consequence and in your
slimy zionist way, you would like to turn this into Jews v Muslims - and in
your slimy zionist way you equate any attack on Israel as proof of hatred of
Jews.
lie, deny, deflect - Give me ONE instance when I have said anything
anti-jewish, Dick.
I am, of course, NOT looking for 'muslim deaths'.
I am pointing out instances of Israeli war crimes and daily brutality
against Palestinians. The religion of the victims is of no importance.
Of course, only a zionist slimeball could describe proof of israeli war
crimes and brutality as 'meaningless ditties'.
Fish Supper
***
the word, Dick. Reply to the accusations made.
Fish Supper
***
once you've failed to show that you replied to my points, have a go at this:
http://media-islam.or.id/2009/11/16/video-gaza-the-new-holocaust/
from 58 seconds in - video evidence of Israeli criminals using rocks to
deliberately break the arm of a palestinian who is tied up and lying on the
ground.
You've managed to describe a photo where a blindfolded, bound child is being
used as a human shield in a fire fight as one which shows the israeli
soldier *protecting* the child.
I'd love to hear how your sick mind justifies the scenes in this video.
Maybe the paelestian was being attacked by wasps and the brave lads of the
IDF were using rocks to try to kill the wasps? I'm sure what you come up
with will be even more incredible than that.
drahcir
> "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Code words for not addressing the issue. Do you actually think that
escapes anyone? I think I speak for the group when I say you're not
worth reply time.
drahcir
Um, is that your way of requesting the links to prove you an idiot?
YES OR NO?
Fish Supper
***
Translation: I'm getting my arse kicked regularly by Fish Supper and have no
response to his evidence. I'll just ignore the evidence and lie when I have
to.
Fish Supper
***
deflect, deny, lie.
I forgot I have to spell things out for an idiot like you. Provide the links
I notice you ignored the video. I'll give you a second chance: justify this:
drahcir
Here's two of about 8:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.jewish/msg/edac8d0ffb56fc33
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.jewish/msg/bbef15e1587eddba
Any other requests?
drahcir
LOL! You have a vivid imagination, I'll grant you that. Howsabout you
try addressing the point about Muslim on Muslim mass murder? Cat got
your overactive tongue?
cornholio
> "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrotenews:62ba1930-7706-4c4b...@h14g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>
> >"Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
>
> >> Some 40 Lebanese civilians have reportedly been killed in Israeli air
> >> strikes and artillery shelling against villages in South Lebanon .
> >> Among the Lebanese victims were a family of ten, including eight children,
> >> who were killed in Dweir village, near Nabatiyeh, and a family of seven,
> >> including a seven-month-old baby, who were killed in Baflay village near
> >> Tyre.
>
> > The Israeli Rabbis say it's okay to kill dangerous babies.
> > Are you against freedom of religion in a Jewish State?
>
> It's about time for Israel to kill those civilians who
> murdering Israeli babies by bomb-shelling them....
> --
You and your muslime pig brethren in the Gaza
Shite need to stop firing mortar rounds and rockets
into Israel, which is commonly called an act of war
you muslime piece of shit.
someone-who-knows
Fish Supper <li...@sea.com> wrote:
[...]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JNQk2gbROk
Video showing terrorist firing mortars from a UN school in Gaza.
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=5oesBeCFAlg
Armed Hamas terrorists ride in a UN ambulance (watch
especially the last 20 seconds).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg
Hamas MP Fathi Hammad admits that the Palestinians use women
and children as human shields, adding "we desire death like
you desire life".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_qbKrOF64w
Hamas MP Yunis Al-Astal, declaring that Islam will
conquer the world: "Very soon, Allah willing, Rome
will be conquered... this capital of theirs will be an
advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread
through Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the
two Americas, and even Eastern Europe".
dsharavi
wrote:
These are the "peace-loving 'Palestinians"', right?
Deborah
Fish Supper
***
there you go again, trying to deflect (lie, deny, deflect) the subject onto
Muslims.
I'm not talking about Muslims, I'm talking about Israeli brutality and war
crimes. Obviously, you want to avoid the issue - and who can blame you, it's
like defending the nazis.
By the way, want to have alook at this
http://media-islam.or.id/2009/11/16/video-gaza-the-new-holocaust/ from 58
seconds in? Would love to hear your perversions of what we can all witness,
Dick.
Fish Supper
On Nov 20, 9:36 am, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
> "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
>
>
> Um, is that your way of requesting the links to prove you an idiot?
> YES OR NO?
>
> ***
> deflect, deny, lie.
>
> I forgot I have to spell things out for an idiot like you. Provide the
> links
Here's two of about 8:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.jewish/msg/edac8d0ffb56fc33
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.jewish/msg/bbef15e1587eddba
***
lie, deflect, deny. In this case - lie. You just can't help yourself, can
you Dick? lie, lie, lie.
These are not replies to the points I made, as anyone can see. These are
well, infantile drivel and neither even refers to the points made.
Why do you even bother posting them? You may as well provide links to the
Slovakian weather service.
You obviously can't respond to the evidence of Israeli brutality in my
posts, just as you can't respond to it in the proof of the video below.
Want to try again?
Fish Supper
Deborah
***
talking about peace-loving:
drahcir
wrote:
>
>"drahcir" <justrich...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:0a3abdf3-1be1-46ec...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
>On Nov 20, 9:36 am, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
>> "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>>
>> > once you've failed to show that you replied to my points,
>>
>> Um, is that your way of requesting the links to prove you an idiot?
>> YES OR NO?
>>
>> ***
>> deflect, deny, lie.
>>
>> I forgot I have to spell things out for an idiot like you. Provide the
>> links
>
>Here's two of about 8:
>
>http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.jewish/msg/edac8d0ffb56fc33
>http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.jewish/msg/bbef15e1587eddba
>
>
>***
>lie, deflect, deny. In this case - lie. You just can't help yourself, can
>you Dick? lie, lie, lie.
>These are not replies to the points I made, as anyone can see. These are
>well, infantile drivel and neither even refers to the points made.
LOL! If anyone had any doubt as to your lack of sanity, this should
cement the deal. Thanks for leaving no doubt.
For those who may not have followed this little conversation, poor,
insane Fish Supper felt he had better snip what his original request
was, since the links I provided proved him insane. I will replace his
request that he snipped so that, when the links I provided are
followed, anyone can see that Fish is off his rocker:
> why would you be curious? - you've failed to post a reply about white
> phosphorous, human shields and anything else you've been asked, Dick.
Sorry, Fish, but you appear to be insane, because no matter how many
times I reply to you about wp and hs, you say that I've failed to
reply. Shall I provide links to my replies and prove you a loony toon?
Just say the word.
******
The first link above is obviously about human shields, the second
about white phosphorus. Anyone is free to google with me as author and
containing "phosphorus" or "human shield" to see how many times I
have replied to this idiot.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:c5b40c89-f7c4-4a9d...@f20g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 19, 6:37 am, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > On Nov 18, 4:42 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
>
> > > > On Nov 17, 3:20 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Nov 17, 2:39 pm, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Nov 17, 8:15 am, drahcir <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ************
> > I give the floor to you, H. Don't pee on it.
>
> > ****
>
> > May I?
>
> Pee on Miss Ratner's floor? Of course.
>
> > recall, though, that looking north we saw Giv'ati infantry troops in
> > Zaytoun, and witnessed quite a lot of phosphorus being used. I can't tell
> > to
> > what extent that use was actually necessary operationally, and whether it
> > was done inside the inhabited area.
> > It looked that way, but it could also have been… Phosphorus was definitely
> > used there, I saw this and you cannot go wrong, you actually see the
> > flaming
> > umbrellas. "
>
> too. After all, wanton vandalism and damage to private property is a zionist
> tactic with which we should have no truck ;)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Agreed. We need to follow the law, as in our foreign policy should be
run by the President and our Congress, not AIPAC.
coaste...@yahoo.com
Last update - 16:17 09/06/2009
Chabad rabbi: Jews should kill Arab men, women and children during
war
By Nathaniel Popper, The Forward
Tags: Israel News, Chabad
Like the best Chabad-Lubavitch rabbis, Manis Friedman has won the
hearts of many unaffiliated Jews with his charismatic talks about love
and God; it was Friedman who helped lead Bob Dylan into a relationship
with Chabad.
But Friedman, who today travels the country as a Chabad speaker,
showed a less warm and cuddly side when he was asked how he thinks
Jews should treat their Arab neighbors.
"The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their
holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle)," Friedman wrote
in response to the question posed by Moment Magazine for its "Ask the
Rabbis" feature.
Advertisement
Friedman argued that if Israel followed this wisdom, there would be
"no civilian casualties, no children in the line of fire, no false
sense of righteousness, in fact, no war."
"I don't believe in Western morality," he wrote. "Living by Torah
values will make us a light unto the nations who suffer defeat because
of a disastrous morality of human invention."
Friedman's use of phrasing that might seem more familiar coming from
an Islamic extremist has generated a swift backlash. The editor of
Moment, Nadine Epstein, said that since the piece was printed in the
current issue they "have received many letters and e-mails in response
to Rabbi Friedman's comments - and almost none of them have been
positive."
Friedman quickly went into damage control. He released a statement to
the Forward, through a Chabad spokesman, saying that his answer in
Moment was "misleading" and that he does believe that "any neighbor of
the Jewish people should be treated, as the Torah commands us, with
respect and compassion."
But Friedman's words have generated a debate about whether there is a
darker side to the cheery face that the Chabad-Lubavitch movement
shows to the world in its friendly outreach to unaffiliated Jews.
Mordecai Specktor, editor of the Jewish community newspaper in
Friedman's hometown, St. Paul. Minnesota, said: "The public face of
Lubavitch is educational programs and promoting Yiddishkeit. But I do
often hear this hard line that Friedman expresses here."
"He sets things out in pretty stark terms, but I think this is what
Lubavitchers believe, more or less," said Specktor, who is also the
publisher of the American Jewish World.
"They are not about loving the Arabs or a two-state solution or any of
that stuff. They are fundamentalists. They are our fundamentalists."
Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League and a
regular critic of Arab extremists, said that in the Jewish community,
"We are not immune to having these views. There are people in our
community who have these bigoted, racist views."
But, Foxman warned, Friedman's views are not reflective of the Chabad
rabbis he knows. "I am not shocked that there would be a rabbi who
would have these views," Foxman said, "but I am shocked that Moment
would give up all editorial discretion and good sense to publish this
as representative of Chabad."
A few days after anger about the comment surfaced, Chabad headquarters
released a statement saying that, "we vehemently disagree with any
sentiment suggesting that Judaism allows for the wanton destruction of
civilian life, even when at war."
The statement added: "In keeping with Jewish law, it is the
unequivocal position of Chabad-Lubavitch that all human life is G-d
given, precious, and must be treated with respect, dignity and
compassion."
In Moment, Friedman's comment is listed as the Chabad response to the
question "How Should Jews Treat Their Arab Neighbors?" after a number
of answers from rabbis representing other Jewish streams, most of
which state a conciliatory attitude toward Arabs.
Epstein said that Friedman was "brave" for stating his views so
clearly.
"The American Jewish community doesn't have the chance to hear
opinions like this," Epstein said, "not because they are rare, but
because we don't often ask Chabad and other similar groups what they
think."
The Chabad movement is generally known for its hawkish policies toward
the Palestinians; the Chabad Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson,
rejected peace accords with the Palestinians. Rabbi Moshe Feller, the
top Chabad rabbi in Minnesota, said that the rebbe taught that it is
not a mitzvah to kill, but that Jews do have an obligation to act in
self-defense.
"Jews as a whole, they try to save the lives of others," Feller told
the Forward, "but if it's to save our lives, then we have to do what
we have to do. It's a last resort."
Friedman is not a fringe rabbi within the Chabad-Lubavitch movement.
He was the English translator for the Chabad Rebbe, and at the rebbe's
urging, he founded Beis Chana, a network of camps and schools for
Jewish women. Friedman is also a popular speaker and writer on issues
of love and relationships. His first book, "Doesn't Anyone Blush
Anymore?" was promoted with a quote from Bob Dylan, who Friedman
brought to meet the rebbe.
On his blog and Facebook page, Friedman's emphasis is on his
sympathetic, caring side. It was this reputation that made the comment
in Moment so surprising to Steve Hunegs, director of the Jewish
Community Relations Council: Minnesota and the Dakotas.
"Rabbi Friedman is a best-selling author who addresses some of the
most sensitive issues of the time," Hunegs said. "I intend to call him
and talk to him about this."
But Shmarya Rosenberg, a blogger and critic of Chabad who lives a few
blocks from Friedman in Minnesota, says that the comment in Moment is
not an aberration from his experiences with Friedman and many other
Chabad rabbis.
"What he's saying is the standard normal view of a Chabadnik,"
Rosenberg said. "They just don't say it in public."
For his part, Friedman was quick to modify the statement that he wrote
in Moment. He told the Forward that the line about killing women and
children should have been in quotes; he said it is a line from the
Torah, though he declined to specify from which part. Friedman also
said that he was not advocating for Israel to actually kill women and
children. Instead, he said, he believed that Israel should publicly
say that it is willing to do these things in order to scare
Palestinians and prevent war.
"If we took this policy, no one would be killed - because there would
be no war," Friedman said. "The same is true of the United States."
Friedman did acknowledge, however, that in self-defense, the behavior
he talked about would be permissible.
"If your children are threatened, you do whatever it takes - and you
don't have to apologize," he said.
Friedman argued that he is different from Arab terrorists who have
used similar language about killing Jewish civilians.
"When they say it, it's genocide, not self-defense," Friedman said.
"With them, it's a religious belief - they need to rid the area of us.
We're not saying that."
Feller, the Chabad leader in Minnesota, said that the way Friedman had
chosen to express himself was "radical."
"I love him," Feller said. "I brought him out here - he's magnificent.
He's brought thousands back to Torah mitzvah. But he shoots from the
hip sometimes."
Contact Nathaniel Popper at pop...@forward.com
coaste...@yahoo.com
“Israeli Ministries Funding the Rabbi who Endorses Killing Babies”
By politicaltheatricsPublished: November 17, 2009
Israeli daily Haaretz published a report on Tuesday in which it said
that there are Israeli ministries funding Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, the
rabbi who endorsed killing gentile babies.
The Haaretz repost says:
“Right-wing spokesmen, including some elected officials, rushed to
place Yaakov “Jack” Teitel in the fringe group alongside Yigal Amir,
Eden Natan Zada, Eliran Golan, Asher Weisgan, Danny Tikman and a few
other “political/ideological” murderers. True, they acknowledge, there
are among us several lunatic rabbis who agitate to violence. Really,
just a handful; even a toddler could count them. The more stringent
will note that unlike the Hamas government, our government does not
pay the salaries of rabbis who advocate the killing of babies.”
“Is that so? Not really,” Haaretz continues.
“For example, government ministries regularly transfer support and
funding to a yeshiva whose rabbi determined that it is permissible to
kill gentile babies “because their presence assists murder, and there
is reason to harm children if it is clear that they will grow up to
harm us … it is permissible to harm the children of a leader in order
to stop him from acting evilly … we have seen in the Halakha that even
babies of gentiles who do not violate the seven Noahide laws, there is
cause to kill them because of the future threat that will be caused if
they are raised to be wicked people like their parents.”
Lior Yavne, who oversees research at the Yesh Din human rights
organization, checked and found that in 2006-2007, the Ministry of
Education department of Torah institutions transferred over a million
shekels to the Od Yosef Hai yeshiva in Yitzhar.
The Israeli Ministry of Social Affairs has allocated over 150,000
shekels to the yeshiva since 2007, scholarships for students with
financial difficulties studying there. And what can they learn with
the help of public funding from the head of the yeshiva, Rabbi Yitzhak
Shapira? According to selected items published last week in the media,
the boys can learn that Teitel is not only innocent, but also a real
saint.”
“Their spiritual leader stated in his book, “Torat Hamelekh” that “a
national decision is not necessary in order to permit the shedding of
blood of an evil kingdom. Even individuals from the afflicted kingdom
can attack them.”
The commandments in the book do not suffice only with gentiles; you
can also find in them approval to attack leftist professors: every
citizen in the kingdom opposing us who encourages the fighters or
expresses satisfaction with their actions is considered a pursuer and
his killing is permissible,” wrote the rabbi and adds, “and also
considered a pursuer is someone whose remarks weaken our kingdom or
have a similar effect.”
Not long ago, Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman announced
that he would ask European Union countries to halt their support for
the Breaking the Silence organization because he was displeased with
their publications.
The Israeli minister surely has reservations about the rabbi’s
publications. He is invited to approach his colleagues at the Ministry
of Education and at the Ministry of Social Affairs.”
Notes/Sources:
1.Haaretz
Yitzhak McSchwartz
<dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Nov 20, 10:09=A0am, someone-who-knows <someone-who-kn...@nospam.com>
>wrote:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4JNQk2gbROk
>> Video showing terrorist firing mortars from a UN school in Gaza.
>>
>> http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=3D5oesBeCFAlg
>> Armed Hamas terrorists ride in a UN ambulance (watch
>> especially the last 20 seconds).
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DCWIDZ7Jpdqg
>> Hamas MP Fathi Hammad admits that the Palestinians use women
>> and children as human shields, =A0adding "we desire death like
>> you desire life".
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dx_qbKrOF64w
>> Hamas MP Yunis Al-Astal, =A0declaring that Islam will
>> conquer the world: =A0"Very soon, =A0Allah willing, =A0Rome
>> will be conquered... =A0this capital of theirs will be an
>> advanced post for the Islamic conquests, =A0which will spread
>> through Europe in its entirety, =A0and then will turn to the
>> two Americas, =A0and even Eastern Europe".
>
>These are the "peace-loving 'Palestinians"', right?
>
>Debwhorah
Still got that recipe for cooking Palestinian kids, whore Nyob?
drahcir
No, I want to know why you seem only concerned about muslims killed by
jews, not by others.
- and who can blame you, it's
> like defending the nazis.
>
> By the way, want to have alook at thishttp://media-islam.or.id/2009/11/16/video-gaza-the-new-holocaust/from 58
coaste...@yahoo.com
That's obvious. The Israelis can end the war. The Palestinians can
not. Zionists want to continue the war. Most of the rest of us want it
settled. This is politics, Richard.
>
> - and who can blame you, it's
>
>
>
> > like defending the nazis.
>
> > By the way, want to have alook at thishttp://media-islam.or.id/2009/11/16/video-gaza-the-new-holocaust/from58
> > seconds in? Would love to hear your perversions of what we can all witness,
> > Dick.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
coaste...@yahoo.com
wrote:
Where are you Deb? Do you plan to retract the "Bullshit" comment?
Fish Supper
"drahcir" <sg...@sgscc.com> wrote in message
news:m2eeg5l86f59l7rtc...@4ax.com...
lie, deflect, deny - and then lie again. Just saying that you ever reply to
points made, doesn't make it so.
You never reply to points proving Israeli brutalty and war crimes - You know
it, I know it, the dogs in the street know it - just as you refuse to
address the crime being committed by Israelis in this video:
http://media-islam.or.id/2009/11/16/video-gaza-the-new-holocaust/ from 58
seconds in
Your squirming and avoiding of this video proof exposes you for the
snivelling, hypocritical half-wit that we know you to be, Dick. You crawl
away from the video in this thread just as you do in about half a dozen
other threads, Dick. You're a coward, Dick and an intellectual pea brain.
Fish Supper
On Nov 20, 5:30 pm, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
> "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f0b0aded-835a-4a73...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> ***
> there you go again, trying to deflect (lie, deny, deflect) the subject
> onto
> Muslims.
>
> I'm not talking about Muslims, I'm talking about Israeli brutality and war
> crimes. Obviously, you want to avoid the issue
No, I want to know why you seem only concerned about muslims killed by
jews, not by others.
***
First of all, I notice that you've sidled away from the video evidence for
what? the 20th time.
http://media-islam.or.id/2009/11/16/video-gaza-the-new-holocaust/ after 58
seconds
every time I post this and every time you slime away from dealing with it
makes you look even smaller. At this rate, we'll soon need the Hadron
Collider to prove you even exist.
In answer to your question, which shows you to be an inveterate racist, I
can only repeat what I have said countless times before: I'm not talking
about their religion.
I'm not concerned with or interested in their religion.
If the criminals and evil thugs happen to be jewish, so be it. If the
victims happen to be Muslim, so be it.
Their religion is of absolutely zero, zilch, null importance other than to
racists, bigots and jewish supremacists like yourself.
I am concerned about innocent people being brutalised, murdered and
dispossesed - not about what God they believe in.
I do not care about the religion of those concerned on either side.
I am an egalitarian Scot, in whose society neither Jews no Muslims play any
role of any great consequence.
I have, inherantly, no bias towards one or the other. However, as a human
being, my sympathies are 100% with the Palestinian victims.
You are the one who wants to turn this into Jews v Muslims.
You focus on the religion in an attempt to divert, deflect and deny Israeli
criminality.
You focus on the religion because you are a Jewish supremacist, who wishes
to denigrate Islam whenever possible.
You focus on the religion because you are a cowardly, racist piece of filth.
Fish Supper
"icono...@yahoo.com" <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ba5e3f6-e36b-4d00...@r24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > used there, I saw this and you cannot go wrong, you actually see the
> > flaming
> > umbrellas. "
>
> I rain on his parade often enough, iconoclast, no need to pee on his
> floor,
> too. After all, wanton vandalism and damage to private property is a
> zionist
> tactic with which we should have no truck ;)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Agreed. We need to follow the law, as in our foreign policy should be
run by the President and our Congress, not AIPAC.
***
US foreign policy for the benefit of the US? That's a whacky and radical
idea, there Ico - can't see it catching on though.
I think you must have skipped class that day, but it was clearly explained
that the fate of Israel, a country which exists only because the US feeds it
like a bird feeding a chick, is key to the very existance of the US.
If Israel fails, terrible things will happen;
you'll be billions of dollars better off every year,
a quarter of the world's population will stop hating you
and you'll no longer be seen to defend a country whos behaviour contravenes
every law of civilisation.
We must not allow this to happen because,...... well, this is where it gets
a bit hazy....., but anyway Teach said that we must support Israel because
Arabs..something ..something.
Nyway, Israel Good, Muslims Bad, that's all I recall - but that's good
enough for me and should be good enough for any Patriot.
drahcir
> "drahcir" <s...@sgscc.com> wrote in message
>
> news:m2eeg5l86f59l7rtc...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:26:38 -0000, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com>
As I have PROVEN, you are insane, seemingly oblivious to replies. You
serve no further purpose. Oh, and that thing you have about "points",
you wouldn't know a point if it stuck you in the eye.
proving Israeli brutalty and war crimes - You know
> it, I know it, the dogs in the street know it - just as you refuse to
> address the crime being committed by Israelis in this video:
>
> http://media-islam.or.id/2009/11/16/video-gaza-the-new-holocaust/from 58
Fish Supper
On Nov 21, 12:59 am, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On Nov 19, 8:13 pm, dsharavi <dshara...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 19, 1:08 pm, "iconocl...@yahoo.com" <coaster132...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > The Israeli Rabbis say it's okay to kill dangerous babies.
>
> > Bullshit.
>
> > Deborah
>
> By politicaltheatricsPublished: November 17, 2009
>
> Israeli daily Haaretz published a report on Tuesday in which it said
> that there are Israeli ministries funding Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, the
> rabbi who endorsed killing gentile babies.
>
> The Haaretz repost says:
>
> place Yaakov �Jack� Teitel in the fringe group alongside Yigal Amir,
> Eden Natan Zada, Eliran Golan, Asher Weisgan, Danny Tikman and a few
> are among us several lunatic rabbis who agitate to violence. Really,
> just a handful; even a toddler could count them. The more stringent
> will note that unlike the Hamas government, our government does not
>
> �Is that so? Not really,� Haaretz continues.
>
> �For example, government ministries regularly transfer support and
> funding to a yeshiva whose rabbi determined that it is permissible to
> is reason to harm children if it is clear that they will grow up to
> to stop him from acting evilly � we have seen in the Halakha that even
> babies of gentiles who do not violate the seven Noahide laws, there is
> cause to kill them because of the future threat that will be caused if
>
> Lior Yavne, who oversees research at the Yesh Din human rights
> organization, checked and found that in 2006-2007, the Ministry of
> Education department of Torah institutions transferred over a million
> shekels to the Od Yosef Hai yeshiva in Yitzhar.
>
> The Israeli Ministry of Social Affairs has allocated over 150,000
> shekels to the yeshiva since 2007, scholarships for students with
> financial difficulties studying there. And what can they learn with
> the help of public funding from the head of the yeshiva, Rabbi Yitzhak
> Shapira? According to selected items published last week in the media,
> the boys can learn that Teitel is not only innocent, but also a real
>
> �Their spiritual leader stated in his book, �Torat Hamelekh� that �a
> national decision is not necessary in order to permit the shedding of
> blood of an evil kingdom. Even individuals from the afflicted kingdom
>
> The commandments in the book do not suffice only with gentiles; you
> can also find in them approval to attack leftist professors: every
> citizen in the kingdom opposing us who encourages the fighters or
> expresses satisfaction with their actions is considered a pursuer and
> considered a pursuer is someone whose remarks weaken our kingdom or
>
> Not long ago, Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman announced
> that he would ask European Union countries to halt their support for
> the Breaking the Silence organization because he was displeased with
> their publications.
>
> publications. He is invited to approach his colleagues at the Ministry
>
> Notes/Sources:
> 1.Haaretz
Where are you Deb? Do you plan to retract the "Bullshit" comment?
***
You'd be quicker waiting for Godot, than waiting for a zionist to admit
they're wrong
drahcir
> "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:9e27ac99-67d9-425a...@m26g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 20, 5:30 pm, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
>
> > "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:f0b0aded-835a-4a73...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> > ***
> > there you go again, trying to deflect (lie, deny, deflect) the subject
> > onto
> > Muslims.
>
> > I'm not talking about Muslims, I'm talking about Israeli brutality and war
> > crimes. Obviously, you want to avoid the issue
>
> No, I want to know why you seem only concerned about muslims killed by
> jews, not by others.
>
> ***
>
> First of all, I notice that you've sidled away from the video evidence for
> what? the 20th time.
Fish, I don't blame you for being insane. The above is symptomatic of
that, but of course you don't realize it. You need medication.
drahcir
wrote:
The above is completely illogical. First of all, muslim on muslim mass
slaughter is happening NEARLY EVERY DAY in either Afg, Iraq, or Pak.
Killing is killing. Those who don't give a shit about it show their
true colors - they aren't against killing muslims, they're against
Jews. Second of all, you say the Palestinians cannot end "the war".
That is absurd. Arabs could end the conflict tomorrow if they wanted.
Zionists want to continue the war.
Again absurd. The vast majority of Israelis are zionists who crave
peace. But it must be a workable peace.
Fish Supper
On Nov 21, 4:17 pm, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
> "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:9e27ac99-67d9-425a...@m26g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 20, 5:30 pm, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
>
> > "drahcir" <justrichardsmu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:f0b0aded-835a-4a73...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> > ***
> > there you go again, trying to deflect (lie, deny, deflect) the subject
> > onto
> > Muslims.
>
> > I'm not talking about Muslims, I'm talking about Israeli brutality and
> > war
> > crimes. Obviously, you want to avoid the issue
>
> No, I want to know why you seem only concerned about muslims killed by
> jews, not by others.
>
> ***
>
> First of all, I notice that you've sidled away from the video evidence for
> what? the 20th time.
Fish, I don't blame you for being insane. The above is symptomatic of
that, but of course you don't realize it. You need medication.
****
Lie, deny, deflect - Dick you're a snivelling, cowardly zionist, too
shamefaced to comment of this video:
Fish Supper
On Nov 20, 9:28 pm, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
> "drahcir" <s...@sgscc.com> wrote in message
>
> lie, deflect, deny - and then lie again. Just saying that you ever reply
> to
> points made, doesn't make it so.
>
> You never reply to points
As I have PROVEN, you are insane, seemingly oblivious to replies. You
serve no further purpose. Oh, and that thing you have about "points",
you wouldn't know a point if it stuck you in the eye.
***
Replying with infantile, irrelevant one-liner drivel is not replyig to posts
proving Israeli war crimes and brutality.
You have never replied to any - just as you squirm away from replying to
seconds in. I make it about 20 times you have failed to face up to it.
Why? We all know why - becasue IDF thugs are shown committing an inexcusable
crime and you have no defense but don't have the honesty to admit it.
Dick, you're a coward and a hypocrite and you expose yourself for what you
are eevry time you refuse to comment on the video.
Dick, you're the perfect zionist.
drahcir
Psychotics often engage in repetitive behaviors to try to attain a
sense of being "grounded". The world is a scary place, eh, fish?
Dick you're a snivelling, cowardly zionist, too
> shamefaced to comment of this video:
I've commented on your stuff before, but you are too insane to have
noticed. That is PROVEN in our discussion history. No further comment
necessary.
>
> http://media-islam.or.id/2009/11/16/video-gaza-the-new-holocaust/after 58
> seconds
drahcir
wrote:
>
>"drahcir" <justrich...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:a191444f-65a1-46ca...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>On Nov 20, 9:28 pm, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
>> "drahcir" <s...@sgscc.com> wrote in message
>>
>
>> lie, deflect, deny - and then lie again. Just saying that you ever reply
>> to
>> points made, doesn't make it so.
>>
>> You never reply to points
>
>As I have PROVEN, you are insane, seemingly oblivious to replies. You
>serve no further purpose. Oh, and that thing you have about "points",
>you wouldn't know a point if it stuck you in the eye.
>
>***
>
>Replying with infantile, irrelevant one-liner drivel is not replyig to posts
>proving Israeli war crimes and brutality.
>
>You have never replied to any
Oh, there, there, of course I haven't. Now you just sit down, take
your medication, and watch your shows, ok? And don't worry about my
replies, if you don't want to know about them, then that's just fine.
Above all, just stay calm and don't hurt yourself or others.
drahcir
wrote:
>
>"drahcir" <justrich...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:a191444f-65a1-46ca...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>On Nov 20, 9:28 pm, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
>> "drahcir" <s...@sgscc.com> wrote in message
>>
>
>> lie, deflect, deny - and then lie again. Just saying that you ever reply
>> to
>> points made, doesn't make it so.
>>
>> You never reply to points
>
>As I have PROVEN, you are insane, seemingly oblivious to replies. You
>serve no further purpose. Oh, and that thing you have about "points",
>you wouldn't know a point if it stuck you in the eye.
>
>***
>
>Replying with infantile, irrelevant one-liner drivel is not replyig to posts
>proving Israeli war crimes and brutality.
Sorry, Fish, my replies addressed your "points". You don't see that
because you are INSANE, as I have proven. No need to rub your silly
face in it - I try to be kind to the handicapped.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> > > definitely
> > > used there, I saw this and you cannot go wrong, you actually see the
> > > flaming
> > > umbrellas. "
>
> > I rain on his parade often enough, iconoclast, no need to pee on his
> > floor,
> > too. After all, wanton vandalism and damage to private property is a
> > zionist
> > tactic with which we should have no truck ;)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Agreed. We need to follow the law, as in our foreign policy should be
> run by the President and our Congress, not AIPAC.
>
> ***
>
> US foreign policy for the benefit of the US? That's a whacky and radical
> idea, there Ico - can't see it catching on though.
No, even though whacky and radical.
> I think you must have skipped class that day, but it was clearly explained
> that the fate of Israel, a country which exists only because the US feeds it
> like a bird feeding a chick, is key to the very existance of the US.
Yet the very existence of the US could be tied to this lunatic asylum.
Israel began the process of nuclearizing the Muslim world in the time
of Nixon.
> If Israel fails, terrible things will happen;
> you'll be billions of dollars better off every year,
> a quarter of the world's population will stop hating you
> and you'll no longer be seen to defend a country whos behaviour contravenes
> every law of civilisation.
But you don't suggest that AIPAC would fold its tents and slip off
into the desert of Caanan.
> We must not allow this to happen because,...... well, this is where it gets
> a bit hazy....., but anyway Teach said that we must support Israel because
> Arabs..something ..something.
> Nyway, Israel Good, Muslims Bad, that's all I recall - but that's good
> enough for me and should be good enough for any Patriot.
Yeah, but there are so many Muslims. And they sit on all this
oil.....Surely their oil isn't bad?
Fish Supper
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:44:41 -0000, "Fish Supper" <li...@sea.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"drahcir" <justrich...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:a191444f-65a1-46ca...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>>On Nov 20, 9:28 pm, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
>>> "drahcir" <s...@sgscc.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>
>>> lie, deflect, deny - and then lie again. Just saying that you ever reply
>>> to
>>> points made, doesn't make it so.
>>>
>>> You never reply to points
>>
>>As I have PROVEN, you are insane, seemingly oblivious to replies. You
>>serve no further purpose. Oh, and that thing you have about "points",
>>you wouldn't know a point if it stuck you in the eye.
>>
>>***
29 times you've squirmed away from confronting IDF brutality in this
ideo - http://media-islam.or.id/2009/11/16/video-gaza-the-new-holocaust/
from 58 seconds
Fish Supper
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:44:41 -0000, "Fish Supper" <li...@sea.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"drahcir" <justrich...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:a191444f-65a1-46ca...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>>On Nov 20, 9:28 pm, "Fish Supper" <l...@sea.com> wrote:
>>> "drahcir" <s...@sgscc.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>
>>> lie, deflect, deny - and then lie again. Just saying that you ever reply
>>> to
>>> points made, doesn't make it so.
>>>
>>> You never reply to points
>>
>>As I have PROVEN, you are insane, seemingly oblivious to replies. You
>>serve no further purpose. Oh, and that thing you have about "points",
>>you wouldn't know a point if it stuck you in the eye.
>>
>>***
>>
>>Replying with infantile, irrelevant one-liner drivel is not replyig to
>>posts
>>proving Israeli war crimes and brutality.
>
> Sorry, Fish, my replies addressed your "points". You don't see that
> because you are INSANE, as I have proven. No need to rub your silly
> face in it - I try to be kind to the handicapped.
lie, deflect deny and lie again - you have at every turn avoided dealing
with the evidence of IDF war crimes that I present. For example, this:
now 30 times you've squirmed away from confronting IDF brutality in this
video - http://media-islam.or.id/2009/11/16/video-gaza-the-new-holocaust/
from 58 seconds