GPS AND TIME RATES
Nick
POTENTIAL) IN THE GPS SYSTEM?
MITCH RAEMSCH -- LIGHT FALL --
Dirk Van de moortel
"Nick" <macro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1178418515.9...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> WHAT ARE THE TIME DIFFERENCES IN GRAVITY'S STRENGTH (GRAVITATIONAL
> POTENTIAL) IN THE GPS SYSTEM?
_______ ____ ____
|__ __/ __ \ / __ \
| | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | |
| | | |__| | |__| |
|_| \____/ \____/
_____ _____ ______ ______ _____ _____ _ _ _ _______
| __ \_ _| ____| ____|_ _/ ____| | | | | |__ __|
| | | || | | |__ | |__ | || | | | | | | | |
| | | || | | __| | __| | || | | | | | | | |
| |__| || |_| | | | _| || |____| |__| | |____| |
|_____/_____|_| |_| |_____\_____|\____/|______|_|
______ ____ _____ __ ______ _ _
| ____/ __ \| __ \ \ \ / / __ \| | | |
| |__ | | | | |__) | \ \_/ / | | | | | |
| __|| | | | _ / \ /| | | | | | |
| | | |__| | | \ \ | | | |__| | |__| |
|_| \____/|_| \_\ |_| \____/ \____/
Dirk Vdm
hanson
wrote in message news:Pjj%h.160867$yq3.1...@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "Nick" <macro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1178418515.9...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> WHAT ARE THE TIME DIFFERENCES IN GRAVITY'S STRENGTH (GRAVITATIONAL
>> POTENTIAL) IN THE GPS SYSTEM?
>
> _______ ____ ____
> |__ __/ __ \ / __ \
> | | | | | | | | |
> | | | | | | | | |
> | | | |__| | |__| |
> |_| \____/ \____/
>
> _____ _____ ______ ______ _____ _____ _ _ _ _______
> | __ \_ _| ____| ____|_ _/ ____| | | | | |__ __|
> | | | || | | |__ | |__ | || | | | | | | | |
> | | | || | | __| | __| | || | | | | | | | |
> | |__| || |_| | | | _| || |____| |__| | |____| |
> |_____/_____|_| |_| |_____\_____|\____/|______|_|
>
> ______ ____ _____ __ ______ _ _
> | ____/ __ \| __ \ \ \ / / __ \| | | |
> | |__ | | | | |__) | \ \_/ / | | | | | |
> | __|| | | | _ / \ /| | | | | | |
> | | | |__| | | \ \ | | | |__| | |__| |
> |_| \____/|_| \_\ |_| \____/ \____/
>
> Dirk Vdm
>
Dirk, you are kacksackering again. Your fine depiction
is relativistically contracted because of your relativistically
dilated GPS comprehension.
>
GPS does NOT and has never needed any SR nor GR
NOT for its design, production, testing or operations.
***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
>
... except to market and sell it, so that 3rd kacksackers
(as you have called yourself) and Einstein Dingleberries
of lower and higher orders are conned into buying the
price-inflated GPS gismos and then do have an excuse
for their suspicious yentas, who yells at them for being
gullible and stupid and they can save their ass with:
***** "But Honey, Einstein made this" *****... ahahaha...
>
Remember, Salesman and Marketers do outsmart
Einstein Dingleberries everytime and anywhere, like Tom
Potter who outshines you cerebrally. -- So, for your benefit,
check Androcles' factual & rational facts in his splendid:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
Learn from him.... and... Thanks for the laughs, Dirko....
ahahahaha.... hanson
karand...@yahoo.com
<Louis Savain imbecilities snipped>
>
> GPS does NOT and has never needed any SR nor GR
> NOT for its design, production, testing or operations.
> ***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
>
Prove it, shithead.
Androcles
"hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote in message news:v%o%h.3916$pW5.1209@trnddc07...
with Google Sketchup, you should the model of Tower Bridge, London.
Good to see the dork, Dork, is struggling with 2D pictures in text.
hanson
["car & arsch"] aka <karand...@yahoo.com> cranked himself in
news:1178475823....@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> <Louis Savain imbecilities snipped>
>>
[hanson]
...ahahahaha... Listen "arsch", you got "car"-ried away with your
Rela delusions, seeing things that are not there. Louis is nowhere
in this thread, but apparently the great man, Savain, looms large on
your mind. He destroyed the feeble sanctity of your faulty weltbild,
didn't he? See, arsch, you do suffer from the typical malady that
afflicts all Einstein Dingleberries, like yourself.... ahahaha...
Get help arsch, for your own benefit, DO LEARN FROM Louis!
>
[arsch cited hanson]http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/3b1439f3c975898b
>> GPS does NOT and has never needed any SR nor GR
>> NOT for its design, production, testing or operations.
>> ***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
>
> Prove it, shithead.
>
[hanson]
ahaha... If you were sure about it, in your condition as an Einstein
Dingleberry, then you would not say that in such painridden anger.
Face it, you self-announced arsch, YOUR FAITH in SR/GR
cannot be proven, but it is gleefully taken for granted by Sales-
men & Marketers who do outsmart and con Einstein Dingleberries
like you, everytime and anywhere, like Tom Potter who outshines
you cerebrally. -- So, for your benefit, LEARN FROM Androcles'
profound factual & rational facts in his splendid treatise in:
>
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
Learn from Andro... It's for your benefit ... so that will never again
sound like being in pain from the whupping and arsch-beating you
got from your yenta... which was predicted without any relativity in here:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/3b1439f3c975898b
wherein it says
::: SR/GR is used to market and sell GPS, so that Einstein
::: Dingleberries of lower and higher orders, like yourself
::: are conned into buying the price-inflated GPS gismos and
::: then do have an excuse for their suspicious yentas, who yells
::: at them for being gullible and stupid and they can save their
::: ass with:
::: ***** "But Honey, Einstein made this" *****... ahahaha...
>
relativistically speaking that you got so irate... AHAHAHA...
Eric Gisse
>
> wrote in messagenews:Pjj%h.160867$yq3.1...@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> > "Nick" <macromi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
A bold assertion.
http://www.leapsecond.com/history/Ashby-Relativity.htm
[...]
hanson
news:1178482964.0...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> Dirk, you are kacksackering again. Your fine depiction
>> is relativistically contracted because of your relativistically
>> dilated GPS comprehension.
>>
>> GPS does NOT and has never needed any SR nor GR
>> NOT for its design, production, testing or operations.
>> ***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
>
Don't be such a stoic Einstein Dingleberry and mooch, Eric.
We went over that very thing just a week or so ago.
Ashy himself says in that link that ~"usually the non-relativistic,
accurate form is used" ... but listen Eric, believe what you
wish.. and be happy in the darkness at your idol's sphincter.
Remember, there is hope for you, because:
>
**All Einstein Dingleberries are destined to become EARs**
>
(Einstein-Anti-Relativists)... ahahahaha... ahahaha....
To boot, don't become like geriatric Helmut who wabniggers
with the wrong people.. Read here, argue with the illuminados:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/wabnigga_saga.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/96c1fde68777bc9f
Thanksa for the laughs
ahahahaha... ahahahanson
Nick
DIFFFERENCE IN ATOMIC CLOCKS. IT AINT HARD. I KNOW IT IS GOING TO BE
VERY SMALL. CAN ANYONE PROVIDE THEM?
karand...@yahoo.com
<Louis Savain imbecilities snipped>
So you couldn't prove it, shitforbrains. Nothing new.
Uncle Al
MITCH RAEMSCH - spaming idiot.
http://www.fuckinggoogleit.com/
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
Nick
> Nick wrote:
>
> > WHAT ARE THE TIME DIFFERENCES IN GRAVITY'S STRENGTH (GRAVITATIONAL
> > POTENTIAL) IN THE GPS SYSTEM?
>
> > MITCH RAEMSCH -- LIGHT FALL --
>
> MITCH RAEMSCH - spaming idiot.
>
> http://www.fuckinggoogleit.com/
>
> --
> (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
CARL MARX.
Phineas T Puddleduck
Nick <macro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
It was actually Karl. I think Carl Marx was an ice-cream man from Guildford.
--
Sacred keeper of the Hollow Sphere, and the space within the Coffee Boy
singularity.
COOSN-174-07-82116: alt.astronomy's favourite poster (from a survey taken
of the saucerhead high command).
Koobee Wublee
wrote:
> [snipped]
This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
relativity. See the great reference below.
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
Before the construction of the GPS, many Larmor-Lorentz-Poincare-
Hilbert worshippers (where these men's works were misidentified as
Einstein's) went on to pooh-pooh the idea of building such a system on
SR. In GPS, there are two circuits of satellites. According to these
Einsteinians, the satellites of each circuit would not be able to
synchronize their clocks with satellites from the other circuit. Now,
of course, GPS works. They not only changed the dancing tune that the
clocks have no problems of synchronizing under the time dilation of
the Lorentz transformation. They started to spread the false
conceptions that GPS can only work with the fouled up concept of GR
and SR. This is truly irresponsible for anyone working in the
academics world to do so.
karand...@yahoo.com
> They started to spread the false conceptions that GPS can only work with the fouled up concept of GR and SR.
Prove it, old unemployed fart. Use math, not your standard rhetorical
shit.
Eric Gisse
> wrote:
>
> > [snipped]
>
> This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
> any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
> relativity. See the great reference below.
How about a _real_ reference that from someone who doesn't base their
name off of fairy tales?
http://www.leapsecond.com/history/Ashby-Relativity.htm
>
> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
Why do you cite someone who doesn't understand the difference between
a vector field and the curl of a vector field?
[snip remainder]
hanson
news:1178490618....@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On May 6, 1:08 pm, "hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote:
> <Louis Savain imbecilities snipped>
>
> So you couldn't prove it, shitforbrains. Nothing new.
>
.... but it's much more likely, that you, an Einstein Dingleberry,
who calls himself "arsch", simply didn't get it. Here it is again
for your benefit. Study it when you are no longer loaded and
your BP is down to where your can think rationally... ahahaha
Thanks for the laughs, though... ahahahaha... ahahanson
Uncle Al
>
> On May 6, "moortel the spermless eunuch" <d...@MoreSperm.hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > [snipped]
>
> This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
> any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
> relativity. See the great reference below.
> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
Idiot.
<http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/ptti2002/paper20.pdf>
Nature 425 374 (2003)
http://www.eftaylor.com/pub/projecta.pdf
<http://www.public.asu.edu/~rjjacob/Lecture16.pdf>
<http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/index.html>
Relativity in the GPS system
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0306076
<http://www.metaresearch.org/solar%20system/gps/absolute-gps-1meter-3.ASP>
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/gpsuser/gpsuser.pdf
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/default.htm
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/icd200/default.htm
http://www.trimble.com/gps/index.html
http://sirius.chinalake.navy.mil/satpred/
http://www.phys.lsu.edu/mog/mog9/node9.html
http://egtphysics.net/GPS/RelGPS.htm
http://www.schriever.af.mil/gps/Current/current.oa1
http://edu-observatory.org/gps/gps_books.html
<http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html>
--
Uncle Al
Androcles
"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:463F4285...@hate.spam.net...
> Koobee Wublee wrote:
>>
>> On May 6, "moortel the spermless eunuch" <d...@MoreSperm.hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > [snipped]
>>
>> This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
>> any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
>> relativity. See the great reference below.
> [snip crap]
>
>> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
>
> Idiot.
Fuckhead. Cunt. Arsehole. Jerkoff. Moron. Shithead. Imbecile. Dolt.
Einstein Dingleberry.
[snip wet fart]
Ignorance is educable, stooopidity is forever, Uncle Stoooopid.
Uncle Al
Idiot.
Androcles
"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:463F56A3...@hate.spam.net...
> Androcles wrote:
>>
>> "Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:463F4285...@hate.spam.net...
>> > Koobee Wublee wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On May 6, "moortel the spermless eunuch" <d...@MoreSperm.hotmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > [snipped]
>> >>
>> >> This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
>> >> any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
>> >> relativity. See the great reference below.
>> > [snip crap]
>> >
>> >> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
>> >
>> > Idiot.
>>
>> Fuckhead. Cunt. Arsehole. Jerkoff. Moron. Shithead. Imbecile. Dolt.
>> Einstein Dingleberry.
>> [snip wet fart]
>> Ignorance is educable, stooopidity is forever, Uncle Stoooopid.
[snip wet fart]
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/ptti2002/paper20.pdf
"First, there is the effect of time dilation. The velocity of a moving clock causes it to appear to run slow
relative to a clock on the Earth. GPS satellites revolve around the Earth with an orbital period of 11.967
hours and a velocity of 3.874 km/s. Thus on account of its velocity, a GPS satellite clock appears to run
slow by 7 us per day.
Second, there is the effect of the gravitational redshift, a frequency shift caused by the difference in
gravitational potential. (The term "redshift" is generic regardless of sign, but for a satellite clock the
frequency shift is actually a blueshift.) The difference in gravitational potential between the altitude of
the orbit and the surface of the Earth causes the satellite clock to appear to run fast. At an altitude of
20,184 km, the clock appears to run fast by 45 us per day."
I've read your fucking bullshit, the operative word is "appears", because it doesn't actually happen,
NOR CAN IT.
Now read mine, you stoooopid IGNORANT bastard.
Ignorance is educable, stooopidity is forever; and you ARE stoooopid. You are a sucker.
Koobee Wublee
> Koobee Wublee wrote:
> > This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
> > any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
> > relativity. See the great reference below.
>
> >http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
>
> [disinformed references snipped]
Regardless of the effects of GR and SR, they play no role in designing
of GPS. GR and SR effects were applied to your references after the
GPS system was built and in operation. With all satellites
synchronized, it is a matter of solving 4 equations with 4 unknowns to
determine all parameters of space and time.
The bottom line is that engineers seem to be orders of magnitude way
more clever than the physicists. There is no need to call engineers
idiots for that. <shrug>
Androcles
"Koobee Wublee" <koobee...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1178561416.5...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
If you read Uncle Stoooopid's paper you'll see that the claim is for blue shift.
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/ptti2002/paper20.pdf
Wherein it says:
"(The term "redshift" is generic regardless of sign, but for a satellite clock the frequency
shift is actually a blueshift.) The difference in gravitational potential between the altitude of
the orbit and the surface of the Earth causes the satellite clock to appear to run fast.
At an altitude of 20,184 km, the clock appears to run fast by 45 us per day."
Note: No calculation, just the same old lie repeated.
Taking off the supposed 7 usec per day for SR, we have (supposedly) 38 usec per day
to dally with.
Cars crawl along Ford and GM assembly lines at a rate of one every 30 seconds
no matter how fast they are driven to the parking lot to await shipment, and they'll
arrive in the lot at one every 30 seconds, there are no extra cars (or extra 30 seconds).
Now, a GPS satellite transmits its position and time continuously, operating
in the GHz range. My computer (and yours too, probably) operates above
1 GHz.
38 usec is a long time for a computer, enough for (say) one position update.
So there are 2,273,684,210 positional updates per day transmitted and because
of blueshift, 2,273,684,211 positional updates per day received.
What was the extra position?
That's what Uncle Stoooopid wants us to believe, and that really is as stupid as it
can be. It's a violation of conservation of energy to say the least, producing pulses
out of nothing by magic.
Of course the rate of arrival is EXACTLY the same as the rate of transmission,
there is no "blueshift", even if the pulses are accelerated by gravity like cars
doing 100 mph from the end of the assembly line to the parking lot.
Eric Gisse
> On May 7, 8:15 am, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
>
> > Koobee Wublee wrote:
> > > This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
> > > any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
> > > relativity. See the great reference below.
>
> > >http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
>
> > [disinformed references snipped]
>
> Regardless of the effects of GR and SR, they play no role in designing
> of GPS. GR and SR effects were applied to your references after the
> GPS system was built and in operation. With all satellites
> synchronized, it is a matter of solving 4 equations with 4 unknowns to
> determine all parameters of space and time.
Liar liar liar liar LIAR.
http://www.leapsecond.com/history/Ashby-Relativity.htm
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/
Randy Poe
> On May 7, 8:15 am, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
>
> > Koobee Wublee wrote:
> > > This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
> > > any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
> > > relativity. See the great reference below.
>
> > >http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
>
> > [disinformed references snipped]
>
> Regardless of the effects of GR and SR, they play no role in designing
> of GPS. GR and SR effects were applied to your references after the
> GPS system was built and in operation.
Incorrect. Satellite number 1 was launched with the capability
to change clock rates: one rate with the GR correction, one without.
It ran for several days (20-some, I believe) with the uncorrected
clock while time-drift data was collected, after which the GR
correction was switched in.
Every clock since then has been calibrated to the GR-corrected
clock rate, not the earth clock rate.
In other words, that correction was part of the design from before
the launch, beginning with the first satellite.
> With all satellites
> synchronized, it is a matter of solving 4 equations with 4 unknowns to
> determine all parameters of space and time.
No, not "all parameters". All the *unknown* parameters, once
the clock rate has been taken out of the equations by
virtue of being pre-calibrated.
> The bottom line is that engineers seem to be orders of magnitude way
> more clever than the physicists. There is no need to call engineers
> idiots for that. <shrug>
The engineers wisely listened to the physicists and built
the GR correction into the clocks.
- Randy
karand...@yahoo.com
So you couldn't prove it, shitforbrains. Nothing new. You can go back
to your daily regimen of shiteating.
Nick
I KNOW WHY. THE GRAVITATIONAL TIME DIFFERENCES ARE TWO
SMALL TO BE OF ANY CONSEQUENCE.
MITCH RAEMSCH -- LIGHT FELL --
Androcles
"Randy Poe" <poespa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1178574665.3...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On May 7, 2:10 pm, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On May 7, 8:15 am, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Koobee Wublee wrote:
>> > > This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
>> > > any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
>> > > relativity. See the great reference below.
>>
>> > >http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
>>
>> > [disinformed references snipped]
>>
>> Regardless of the effects of GR and SR, they play no role in designing
>> of GPS. GR and SR effects were applied to your references after the
>> GPS system was built and in operation.
>
> Incorrect.
Idiot.
GPS works all over the USA regardless of time zone.
New York is five hours behind London and so is Pittsburgh,
LA is 8 hours adrift.
All that matters to GPS is the clocks are synchronised.
I doesn't matter if they are all fast or all slow, as long as they
are all the same.
You are a fuckhead sucker, just like Uncle Stoooopid.
Phineas T Puddleduck
Koobee Wublee
> On May 7, 2:10 pm, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Koobee Wublee wrote:
> > This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
> > any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
> > relativity. See the great reference below.
>
> > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
> Incorrect. Satellite number 1 was launched with the capability
> to change clock rates: one rate with the GR correction, one without.
This may be true in which I won't even contest. However, 1 satellite
does not make a GPS.
> It ran for several days (20-some, I believe) with the uncorrected
> clock while time-drift data was collected, after which the GR
> correction was switched in.
So, you don't know, and you just make up the history. Is that it?
> Every clock since then has been calibrated to the GR-corrected
> clock rate, not the earth clock rate.
If on a periodic basis that I can synchronize all the clocks in the
satellites, why would I even correct for GR effect?
> In other words, that correction was part of the design from before
> the launch, beginning with the first satellite.
This is not the case with four satellites in the receiver calculation.
> > With all satellites
> > synchronized, it is a matter of solving 4 equations with 4 unknowns to
> > determine all parameters of space and time.
>
> No, not "all parameters". All the *unknown* parameters, once
> the clock rate has been taken out of the equations by
> virtue of being pre-calibrated.
Again, you do not understand the power of mathematics to solve 4
unknowns (t, x, y, z) if presented with 4 independent equations.
<shrug>
> > The bottom line is that engineers seem to be orders of magnitude way
> > more clever than the physicists. There is no need to call engineers
> > idiots for that. <shrug>
>
> The engineers wisely listened to the physicists and built
> the GR correction into the clocks.
Only these physicists would dream about a problem that is not in
existence. <shrug>
Sam Wormley
>
> Again, you do not understand the power of mathematics to solve 4
> unknowns (t, x, y, z) if presented with 4 independent equations.
> <shrug>
>
Shrugging Koobee Wublee *fails* to understand that the PVT
solution is pretty worthless without GTR corrected satellite
clocks. Shrugging Koobee Wublee further *fails* to understand
that satellite clock steering is orders of magnitude smaller
that the cumulative error without GTR corrections. Moreover GPS
was designed to operate autonomously without intervention for
up to six months.
Shrugging Koobee Wublee *fails* to understand that not all the
required relativistic corrections are via clock offset. Reminds
me of Blustering Potter.
karand...@yahoo.com
<KW idiocies snipped>
>
> If on a periodic basis that I can synchronize all the clocks in the
> satellites, why would I even correct for GR effect?
>
And you PRETEND to know GR? Exposed you again, shiforbrains.
How would you "synchronize the clocks" you old unemployed (and
unemployable) fart?
The clocks on the ground and the clocks in the satellites run at
different rates, so show us how would you synchronize them.
Equations only, not your standard weaseling rhetoric.
Now , watch to scumbag Kobee Wobling scurry away like a bubonic
plagued rat.
Eric Gisse
> On May 7, 2:51 pm, Randy Poe <poespam-t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On May 7, 2:10 pm, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Koobee Wublee wrote:
> > > This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
> > > any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
> > > relativity. See the great reference below.
>
> > >http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
> > Incorrect. Satellite number 1 was launched with the capability
> > to change clock rates: one rate with the GR correction, one without.
>
> This may be true in which I won't even contest. However, 1 satellite
> does not make a GPS.
Oh, your right.
NTS-2 is launched, and it is found that the relativistic effect is not
only real, but significant. What do the engineers of the global
positioning system do? They ignore the NTS-2 results, and forge ahead
anyway. They then compute the effect not by using general relativity,
but by working backwards from what they expect as the signal then
apply the completely empirical correction. All that, when they could
have simply used GR.
Wait, that makes _NO SENSE_. Especially because the GPS designers
explicitly took GR into account, and have stated that they do.
http://www.colorado.edu/engineering/GPS/Papers/RelativityinGPS.ps
Oh that's right, you and your weeping vagina can't cope with
postscript.
There is the living reviews site...
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1
Oh wait, you have had this given to you dozens of times before and you
still don't get it...
How about NIST? They might know something about time keeping.
http://tf.nist.gov/time/oneway.htm
Here, how about the GPS specifications themselves?
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf
Page 28: "The SV carrier frequency and clock rates -- as they would
appear to an observer located in the SV -- are offset to compensate
for relativistic effects."
All of page 102.
Page 106 has a flow chart of correction effects, of which relativity
is an explicit member.
So are you going to stop lying, now that you have been given proof
that even you cannot deny? Or will you simply ignore everything I said
and continue to assert that GR is irrelevant to the design of GPS?
>
> > It ran for several days (20-some, I believe) with the uncorrected
> > clock while time-drift data was collected, after which the GR
> > correction was switched in.
>
> So, you don't know, and you just make up the history. Is that it?
>
> > Every clock since then has been calibrated to the GR-corrected
> > clock rate, not the earth clock rate.
>
> If on a periodic basis that I can synchronize all the clocks in the
> satellites, why would I even correct for GR effect?
>
> > In other words, that correction was part of the design from before
> > the launch, beginning with the first satellite.
>
> This is not the case with four satellites in the receiver calculation.
>
> > > With all satellites
> > > synchronized, it is a matter of solving 4 equations with 4 unknowns to
> > > determine all parameters of space and time.
>
> > No, not "all parameters". All the *unknown* parameters, once
> > the clock rate has been taken out of the equations by
> > virtue of being pre-calibrated.
>
> Again, you do not understand the power of mathematics to solve 4
> unknowns (t, x, y, z) if presented with 4 independent equations.
> <shrug>
Hey idiot - that isn't how it is done. Read the spec.
>
> > > The bottom line is that engineers seem to be orders of magnitude way
> > > more clever than the physicists. There is no need to call engineers
> > > idiots for that. <shrug>
>
> > The engineers wisely listened to the physicists and built
> > the GR correction into the clocks.
>
> Only these physicists would dream about a problem that is not in
> existence. <shrug>
Do you really believe what you say, or is lying an effortless task for
you?
Eric Gisse
[snip idiocy]
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf
Read the spec, and shut the fuck up.
hanson
***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
["car & arsch"] aka <karand...@yahoo.com> cussed in message
news:1178490618....@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
news:1178575092.5...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
news:1178475823....@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
& angrily explained his ken about GPS with "shit eating" for some reason:
>
[arsch]
> <Louis Savain imbecilities snipped>
> So you couldn't prove it, shitforbrains. Nothing new.
> You can go back to your daily regimen of shiteating.
>
Thanks for the laughs, Dingleberry karandarasch, ahahaha...
ahahaha... ahahahanson
>
Furthermore: ---- Mode d'emploi au professeur Ashby:
which the NG Einstein-Dinglenerries always love to cite.
Ashby himself says in it after 39 equations (!... ahahaha) :
"The net correction for clock offset due to relativistic effects that
vary in time is "Delta t = + 4.4428*10^(-10)*e* sqrt...etc " ... (39)
and then continues to add. " Eq. (39) can be expressed *without*
approximation in the alternative form Delta t = + 2 r * v / c^2 ... (40)
where r and v are the position and velocity of the satellite at the
instant of transmission. This latter form is usually used in
implementations of the receiver software".... ahahahaha.... IOW,
**** Ashby himself says NO relativity is required for GPS *****
just like you did in your web site:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
>
Eric Gisse
[...]
>
> Shrugging Koobee Wublee *fails* to understand that not all the
> required relativistic corrections are via clock offset. Reminds
> me of Blustering Potter.
Both way out of their depth and are too arrogant/stupid to know it?
I wonder what KW's real profession was.
I honestly doubt "engineer", which is the common refrain.
The engineers I know have a familiarity with mathematics that is
comparable to my own, but are better at applying it to real world
situations. One would think GPS would be the perfect application of
relativity for an engineer.
Y.Porat
----------------
HI Van Der shmatte !!!
' nothiong new ' ?? little shithead nasty crook???
**may be nothin new but for bump parasites** like you**!!
and some otrhers hand waivers like you
there is a lot of news!!
that you dont understand a fuck!!
you are not even
the flea on the back of the dashing elepahnt!!
what do you really know about PGS??!!! nasty crook ??
so bettetr go to a psychiatrist .Mr bump parasite .
Y.P
-----------------------------------------
Y.Porat
>
> [ >
> [hanson]
> Dirk, you are kacksackering again. Your fine depiction
> is relativistically contracted because of your relativistically
> dilated GPS comprehension.
>
> GPS does NOT and has never needed any SR nor GR
> NOT for its design, production, testing or operations.
> ***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
>
> (as you have called yourself) and Einstein Dingleberries
> of lower and higher orders are conned into buying the
> price-inflated GPS gismos and then do have an excuse
> for their suspicious yentas, who yells at them for being
> gullible and stupid and they can save their ass with:
> ***** "But Honey, Einstein made this" *****... ahahaha...
>
> Einstein Dingleberries everytime and anywhere, like Tom
> Potter who outshines you cerebrally. -- So, for your benefit,
> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
> Learn from him.... and... Thanks for the laughs, Dirko....
> ahahahaha.... hanson- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
--------------
Hi Habnson!!
as far as i undersatnd GPS does use SR
but it actually does *not* use GR
anyway you are well doing in showing all those
'flea on thre abck of the elephant'
who is realy doing the real 'big dust' !!
it seems anyway that at last more amd more people
satrt to wake up from too many illusions
and common lies !!
keep wel honset friend
Y.Porat
-----------------
hanson
"Eric Gisse" <jow...@gmail.com> turned Eric-tum & wrote in message
news:1178604776....@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/3b1439f3c975898b
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/d76c3b211d5265e9
> [snip idiocy]
but wherein Ashby, an Einstein-Dingleberries' darling is cited.
Ashby himself says in it after 39 equations (!... ahahaha) :
"The net correction for clock offset due to relativistic effects that
vary in time is "Delta t = + 4.4428*10^(-10)*e* sqrt...etc " ... (39)
and then continues to add. " Eq. (39) can be expressed *without*
approximation in the alternative form Delta t = + 2 r * v / c^2 ... (40)
where r and v are the position and velocity of the satellite at the
instant of transmission. This latter form is usually used in
implementations of the receiver software".... ahahahaha.... IOW,
**** Ashby himself says NO relativity is required for GPS *****
>
ahahaha... unlike you, the Jowr aka Juvenile Of Weak Reasoning
I do like free speech... and furthermore ... ahahahaha... You are
exciting yourself, like poster "Arsch" does in his posts, & explains
GPS with his "his shit for brain" & his "shit-eating" habit... ahahaha...
Both, you two Einstein Dingleberries have awful problems, 'cuz
no matter how many treatises you forage for, the FACT remains
***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
Eric Gisse
Liar.
You have had it explained to you a dozen+ times already. Your
inability to understand is nobody's fault but your own. Read the spec
and grow a clue.
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf
hanson
news:1178606330....@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On May 6, 9:20 pm, "hanson" responded to D van de moortel in
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/3b1439f3c975898b
>> [ >
>> [hanson]
>> Dirk, you are kacksackering again. Your fine depiction
>> is relativistically contracted because of your relativistically
>> dilated GPS comprehension.
>>
>> GPS does NOT and has never needed any SR nor GR
>> NOT for its design, production, testing or operations.
>> ***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
>>
>> ... except to market and sell it, so that 3rd kacksackers
>> (as you have called yourself) and Einstein Dingleberries
>> of lower and higher orders are conned into buying the
>> price-inflated GPS gismos and then do have an excuse
>> for their suspicious yentas, who yells at them for being
>> gullible and stupid and they can save their ass with:
>> ***** "But Honey, Einstein made this" *****... ahahaha...
>>
>> Remember, Salesman and Marketers do outsmart
>> Einstein Dingleberries everytime and anywhere, like Tom
>> Potter who outshines you cerebrally. -- So, for your benefit,
>> check Androcles' factual & rational facts in his splendid:
>> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
>> Learn from him.... and... Thanks for the laughs, Dirko....
>> ahahahaha.... hanson
>
[Yehiel]
> Hi Hanson!!
> as far as i understand GPS does use SR
> but it actually does *not* use GR
>
> anyway you are well doing in showing all those
> who is realy doing the real 'big dust' !!
> it seems anyway that at last more amd more people
> and common lies !!
>
> keep well honest friend
> Y.Porat
> -----------------
>
[hanson]
Yo, Yehiel, it's good to hear from you... ahahaha... but
these Dingleberry illusions will remain just as long as
religions will be be in vogue. It's the same kind of
machination. Most people need such a believe because
it is much easier to be a parrot then to tread new ground.
>
Listen Yehi,..... GPS does not USE any SR or GR... but
some GPS aspects can be DESCRIBED with SR or GR,
but the theory itself is just a story which the Einstein
Dingleberries need to justify their physico-religious
fanaticism. Fortunately for impressionable students it holds that
*Young Einstein Dingleberries are destined to become EARs*
(Einstein-Anti-Relativists)... ahahahaha... ahahaha.... ...
Its' just a question of time... But for the old failed ex-teachers who
have come to the Usenet to die, for their Einstein Dingleberrism,
there is no cure. May these geriatric Einstein Dingleberries
find peace and happiness in their darkness near the sphincter
of their Idol Albert... ahahahaha.... ahahahanson
>
PS:
When time allows and fancy strikes I will post on your
notion of the massive photon and your "No mass - no physics"
I think that either you didn't explain it properly or the NG parrots
simply didn't understand what you meant. I can see your point
though.. and I will explain it, the way I see it. -- Ciao, Yehi
Eric Gisse
[snip idiocy]
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf
Eric Gisse
Daryl McCullough
>
>On May 7, 10:27 pm, Sam Wormley <sworml...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>[...]
>
>>
>> Shrugging Koobee Wublee *fails* to understand that not all the
>> required relativistic corrections are via clock offset. Reminds
>> me of Blustering Potter.
>
>Both way out of their depth and are too arrogant/stupid to know it?
>
>I wonder what KW's real profession was.
I don't know, but he had me fooled, temporarily. He waded
into a discussion about solutions to Einstein's field equations
and started talking about Schwarzschild metric and differential
geometry, so I assumed that he had some familiarity with physics.
But then he made an incredibly dumb statement, which is that for
the metric
ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 / (1 + K / r) - (1 + K / r) dr^2 - (r + K)^2 dO^2
the area of a sphere of constant r and t is
A = 4pi r^2
This is a mistaken worthy of a 15-year old. Make the substitution
r' = r+K, and you find that the area is 4 pi r'^2 = 4 pi (r+K)^2.
Then in a more recent thread, he said
Proper time = spacetime / speed of light
Clearly, he doesn't know even *special* relativity. He doesn't
the basics of calculus or physics. So why in the world does
he get into *arguments* about them? It's as if I argued about
the proper pronunciation of a particular word in Basque. I
don't know *anything* about Basque, and Koobee doesn't know
anything about relativity. Why does he pretend otherwise?
Why does he go so far as to *correct* people who do know
something about relativity?
Bizarre behavior, even for a crackpot.
--
Daryl McCullough
Ithaca, NY
Y.Porat
---------------
HI psychopath
Y.P
------------------
Y.Porat
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
---------------
Hi psychpath
Y.P
-----------------------
Y.Porat
GPS.htm
> >> Learn from him.... and... Thanks for the laughs, Dirko....
> >> ahahahaha.... hanson
> > --------------
>
> [Yehiel]
> > Hi Hanson!!
> > as far as i understand GPS does use SR
> > but it actually does *not* use GR
>
> > anyway you are well doing in showing all those
> > 'flea on the back of the elephant'
> > who is realy doing the real 'big dust' !!
> > it seems anyway that at last more amd more people
> > start to wake up from too many illusions
> > and common lies !!
>
> > keep well honest friend
> > Y.Porat
> > -----------------
>
> [hanson]
> Yo, Yehiel, it's good to hear from you... ahahaha... but
> these Dingleberry illusions will remain just as long as
> religions will be be in vogue. It's the same kind of
> machination. Most people need such a believe because
> it is much easier to be a parrot then to tread new ground.
>
> there is no cure. May these geriatric Einstein Dingleberries
> find peace and happiness in their darkness near the sphincter
> of their Idol Albert... ahahahaha.... ahahahanson
>
> PS:
> When time allows and fancy strikes I will post on your
> notion of the massive photon and your "No mass - no physics"
> I think that either you didn't explain it properly or the NG parrots
> simply didn't understand what you meant. I can see your point
>
> - Show quoted text -
---------------
thank you hanson
i still think SR is relevant to GPS but not GR
now
Confuzius saied:
'while little peopel make long shadows------------
it is sunset !!!!!!!'
i hope you know to which people i mean!!
now about no mass etc
my postulate is
**no mass -- no ***real physics***
the real means that one can mumble theoretically
as he likes
but if he wants to be useful practicallyhe cant dismiss mass !!
in any real physics you can laways find the mass
sometimes aprrots cant see it
so you have jsut to show it to them
provided they are honest and cleaver people
(honest is not the least of the two !!)
for instance as i showed it in the
photon case by the formula
E=hf
the mass is hidden in that h !!!
you have just to 'scratch it out '
btw
if my postulate is right
it is mighty simple and useful
serving as a litmus paper totest waht is real physics
keep well
Y.Porat
-------------------
karand...@yahoo.com
Jeckyl
Another waste of a post from Porat. Have you read the spec.. how it
describe the relativistic effect that are taken into account?
Jeckyl
> Hi psychpath
Tom Potter
"Sam Wormley" <swor...@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:wTT%h.
102476$_c5.43282@attbi_s22...
Sam, why don't you demonstrate your knowledge
of the GPS system, and post a list of the
"required relativistic corrections"
and where and how the "corrections" are made,
and explain why these corrections cannot
be made with a "closed loop" system?
--
Tom Potter
*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
http://home.earthlink.net/~tdp
http://tdp1001.googlepages.com/home
http://no-turtles.com
http://www.frappr.com/tompotter
http://photos.yahoo.com/tdp1001
http://spaces.msn.com/tdp1001
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter
http://tom-potter.blogspot.com
Jeckyl
> thank you hanson
>
> i still think SR is relevant to GPS but not GR
Read the spec .. both are important (and the effects are opposite, but do
not fully cancel each other out)
> now
> Confuzius saied:
>
> 'while little peopel make long shadows------------
> it is sunset !!!!!!!'
> i hope you know to which people i mean!!
You, I assume
> now about no mass etc
Oh god, not again
> my postulate is
> **no mass -- no ***real physics***
That's not a postulate . its just a slogan .. it has no useful meaning
> the real means that one can mumble theoretically
> as he likes
> but if he wants to be useful practicallyhe cant dismiss mass !!
Yes you can .. look at kinematics.
> in any real physics you can laways find the mass
No
> sometimes aprrots cant see it
"approts" .. is that apricots?
> so you have jsut to show it to them
> provided they are honest and cleaver people
> (honest is not the least of the two !!)
>
> for instance as i showed it in the
> photon case by the formula
> E=hf
> the mass is hidden in that h !!!
There is also squared time .. it doesn't really prove anything .. and
CERTAINLY does not give any weigth (:)) to the notion tha photons have rest
mass
> you have just to 'scratch it out '
> btw
> if my postulate is right
Its just a slogan .. and no .. its not right
> it is mighty simple and useful
> serving as a litmus paper totest waht is real physics
No .. it won't ..because you can do real physics without involving mass
NO TIME - NO PHYSICS - (c) "Jeckyl" 2007
NO SPACE - NO PHYSICS - (c) "Jeckyl" 2007
NO DISTANCE - NO PHYISICS - (c) "Jeckyl" 2007
Now THOSE have a bit of real meaning.to them !
Jeckyl
news:1178634262.2...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> "Sam Wormley" <swor...@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:wTT%h.
> 102476$_c5.43282@attbi_s22...
>> Koobee Wublee wrote:
>>
>>> Again, you do not understand the power of mathematics to solve 4
>>> unknowns (t, x, y, z) if presented with 4 independent equations.
>>> <shrug>
>>
>> Shrugging Koobee Wublee *fails* to understand that the PVT
>> solution is pretty worthless without GTR corrected satellite
>> clocks. Shrugging Koobee Wublee further *fails* to understand
>> that satellite clock steering is orders of magnitude smaller
>> that the cumulative error without GTR corrections. Moreover GPS
>> was designed to operate autonomously without intervention for
>> up to six months.
>>
>> Shrugging Koobee Wublee *fails* to understand that not all the
>> required relativistic corrections are via clock offset. Reminds
>> me of Blustering Potter.
>
> Sam, why don't you demonstrate your knowledge
> of the GPS system, and post a list of the
> "required relativistic corrections"
> and where and how the "corrections" are made,
>
> and explain why these corrections cannot
> be made with a "closed loop" system?
Personally I don't see that it really matters whether the adjustment are
done via some pre-calculated setting in the clock or via a closed loop.
What is relevant is that GR and SR correctly predict what the
offsets/corrections/whatever-you-want-to-call-them should be. ie that there
are SR and GR effects.
The mechanism the GPS uses to account for them isn't particularly important
(except to the engineers designing it), as long as they do get taken into
account one way or the other.
Androcles
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1178634262.2...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> 102476$_c5.43282@attbi_s22...
>> Koobee Wublee wrote:
>>
>>> Again, you do not understand the power of mathematics to solve 4
>>> unknowns (t, x, y, z) if presented with 4 independent equations.
>>> <shrug>
>>
>> Shrugging Koobee Wublee *fails* to understand that the PVT
>> solution is pretty worthless without GTR corrected satellite
>> clocks. Shrugging Koobee Wublee further *fails* to understand
>> that satellite clock steering is orders of magnitude smaller
>> that the cumulative error without GTR corrections. Moreover GPS
>> was designed to operate autonomously without intervention for
>> up to six months.
>>
>> Shrugging Koobee Wublee *fails* to understand that not all the
>> required relativistic corrections are via clock offset. Reminds
>> me of Blustering Potter.
>
> Sam, why don't you demonstrate your knowledge
> of the GPS system, and post a list of the
> "required relativistic corrections"
> and where and how the "corrections" are made,
>
> and explain why these corrections cannot
> be made with a "closed loop" system?
HAHAHA! That's like asking the Pope how virgin births are possible.
It would be miraculous if he could explain a miracle.
It is written, therefore it has to be true.
The really ironic part is Wormshit calling anyone "Blustering" because quite
clearly that is what Wormshit is doing.
Tom Potter
> On May 7, 2:10 pm, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > > Koobee Wublee wrote:
> > > > This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
> > > > any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
> > > > relativity. See the great reference below.
>
> > > >http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
>
>
> > Regardless of the effects of GR and SR, they play no role in designing
> > of GPS. GR and SR effects were applied to your references after the
> > GPS system was built and in operation.
>
> Incorrect. Satellite number 1 was launched with the capability
> It ran for several days (20-some, I believe) with the uncorrectedclockwhile time-drift data was collected, after which the GR
> correction was switched in.
>
> Everyclocksince then has been calibrated to the GR-correctedclockrate, not the earthclockrate.
>
> In other words, that correction was part of the design from before
> the launch, beginning with the first satellite.
>
> > synchronized, it is a matter of solving 4 equations with 4 unknowns to
> > determine all parameters of space and time.
>
> No, not "all parameters". All the *unknown* parameters, once
> virtue of being pre-calibrated.
>
> > The bottom line is that engineers seem to be orders of magnitude way
> > more clever than the physicists. There is no need to call engineers
> > idiots for that. <shrug>
>
> The engineers wisely listened to the physicists and built
> the GR correction into the clocks.
Randy,
explain how you build a "GR correction into <an atomic> clock.".
And assuming that it was possible to make GPS atomic clocks
oscillate at something other than the natural frequency
of the atomic process,
explain how you can be sure that "a GR correction" was used,
rather than Galileo correction, a Newton correction,
a Maxwell correction, or a correction determine by
using empirical data?
I suggest that you patent your process of
making atomic clocks oscillate at some desired frequency,
while maintaining their short and long term stabilities,
as this would be a very useful technique.
And you should publish a scientific paper to show
how one determines what model or person to credit
"corrections" to, as this would be a major breakthrough in logic.
Jeckyl
> Randy,
> explain how you build a "GR correction into <an atomic> clock.".
An atomic clock doesn't "tick" once per second. You can correct the time
claculated from the clock iwth whatever clculations you like .. you don't
need to change the natural frequency of the atomic process ..just how you
interpret it
Randy Poe
You set the tick rate to be 446.47 parts per trillion slower than the
tick rate of an identical clock meant to be run on earth, since
GR predicts that ticks from that clock will appear to be generated
at a rate 446.47 ppt higher on station than when it is on earth.
> And assuming that it was possible to make GPS atomic clocks
> oscillate at something other than the natural frequency
> of the atomic process,
High-precision clocks, such as quartz watches and the clocks in
your PC, have circuits called frequency dividers or frequency
synthesizers. The tick rate is derived from the natural frequency,
but it isn't the same as the natural frequency.
Here's the description from the original NTS-2 experiment:
http://www.leapsecond.com/history/1978-PTTI-v9-NTS-2.pdf
"On Day 215,1977, the NTS-2 PRO-5 output signal
was offset {Fig. 21) through the use of a frequency synthesizer {4) .
Closer frequency synchronization to the UTC rate is obtainable by
use of cesium C-field tuning which provides a resolution of
1.3 pp10^13."
So through circuitry, they were able to adjust the output
frequency in steps of 0.13 parts per trillion.
Nowadays, GPS satellite clocks aren't designed for this
dual-frequency operation. They just have their frequency
synthesizer circuitry preset for the GR-predicted frequency.
> explain how you can be sure that "a GR correction" was used,
Because the number is the one predicted by GR.
> rather than Galileo correction, a Newton correction,
> a Maxwell correction, or a correction determine by
> using empirical data?
Because the number isn't predicted by any of those.
- Randy
Randy Poe
> oscillate at something other than the natural frequency
> of the atomic process,
All atomic clocks produce counts at something other than
the natural frequency of the atomic process.
> explain how you can be sure that "a GR correction" was used,
> rather than Galileo correction, a Newton correction,
> a Maxwell correction, or a correction determine by
> using empirical data?
As for the question of "empirical data", the reason we know
this is that the experiment happened AFTER the prediction
was made and the correcting hardware built into the GPS
satellite NTS-2.
- Randy
Koobee Wublee
> I don't know, but he had me fooled, temporarily. He waded
> into a discussion about solutions to Einstein's field equations
> and started talking about Schwarzschild metric and differential
> geometry, so I assumed that he had some familiarity with physics.
> But then he made an incredibly dumb statement, which is that for
> the metric
>
> ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 / (1 + K / r) - (1 + K / r) dr^2 - (r + K)^2 dO^2
>
> the area of a sphere of constant r and t is
>
> A = 4pi r^2
That is correct. The area of a sphere as observed by the observer
using the coordinate system of (t, r, O) is always (4 pi r^2)
regardless of the metric.
> This is a mistaken worthy of a 15-year old. Make the substitution
> r' = r+K, and you find that the area is 4 pi r'^2 = 4 pi (r+K)^2.
This shows you do not understand the relations among the actual,
invariant geometry, the metric, and the choice of coordinate system.
<shrug>
> Then in a more recent thread, he said
>
> Proper time = spacetime / speed of light
Again, that is very correct. This is how it is done in the very
mathematics of SR. <shrug>
> Clearly, he doesn't know even *special* relativity. He doesn't
> the basics of calculus or physics. So why in the world does
> he get into *arguments* about them?
Good, from now on just listen to me, and don't argue.
> It's as if I argued about
> the proper pronunciation of a particular word in Basque.
No one cares if you want to learn about Euskera.
> I
> don't know *anything* about Basque, and Koobee doesn't know
> anything about relativity. Why does he pretend otherwise?
> Why does he go so far as to *correct* people who do know
> something about relativity?
Yeah, from someone who makes the basic blunders within the same post.
> Bizarre behavior, even for a crackpot.
The crackpot can be found in your mirror. Check it out.
hanson
news:1341299...@corp.supernews.com...
> Yehiel "Y.Porat" <y.y....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1178633211.1...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> thank you hanson. my postulate is
>> **no mass -- no ***real physics***
>
> That's not a postulate . its just a slogan .. it has no useful meaning
>
ahahahaha... and then Jeckyl makes a 180 and outdoes Yehiel
>
[Jeckyl to Yehi]
> NO TIME - NO PHYSICS - (c) "Jeckyl" 2007
> NO SPACE - NO PHYSICS - (c) "Jeckyl" 2007
> NO DISTANCE - NO PHYISICS - (c) "Jeckyl" 2007
> Now THOSE have a bit of real meaning.to them !
>
ahahaha... Well, if you guys say so. Now, I would be inclined
to sign on IF you would DEFINE, those mass, time, space &
distance dimensions.. because for starters, as in the
Einstein Dingleberry equation E = sqrt(m^2 c^4 + p^2 c^2)
that is said to prove that photons have no mass, has the
still open issue in that momentum p is still defined with
the dimension of mass in it... ahahaha... ahahaha... So, gimme
the respective definitions such that the **dimension** of mass
does not show up in the alluded photon definition...
>
BTW, to all the fanatical Einstein Dingleberries, like "Eric-tum"
and "car&Arsch", here's a note for their inner happiness:
There is nothing wrong with the pure and abstract math and/or
geometry that is used in SR/GR. **But** it's the applications of
said theories to physics that has resulted in the irrational guess
work and Behauptungen that said Dingleberries whine about
in their hemorrhoidal agonies of their REL-igious proselytizing.
>
So, remember 2 things:
(1) ***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
>
(2)*Young Einstein Dingleberries are destined to become EARs*
(Einstein-Anti-Relativists)... ahahahaha... ahahaha.... ...
It's just a question of time... But for the old failed ex-teachers who
have come to the Usenet to die, it's too late to cure their Einstein
Dingleberrism. May these geriatric Einstein Dingleberries (EDBs)
find peace and happiness in their darkness near the sphincter
Thanks for that laughs you EDBs (Erectile Dysfunctional Brood)
ahahahaha.... ahahahanson
hanson
"Eric Gisse" <jow...@gmail.com> turned Eric-tum & wrote in message
news:1178604776....@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On May 6, 2:23 pm, "hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/3b1439f3c975898b
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/d76c3b211d5265e9
> [snip idiocy]
but wherein Ashby, an Einstein-Dingleberries' darling is cited.
Ashby himself says in it after 39 equations (!... ahahaha) :
"The net correction for clock offset due to relativistic effects that
vary in time is "Delta t = + 4.4428*10^(-10)*e* sqrt...etc " ... (39)
and then continues to add. " Eq. (39) can be expressed *without*
approximation in the alternative form Delta t = + 2 r * v / c^2 ... (40)
where r and v are the position and velocity of the satellite at the
instant of transmission. This latter form is usually used in
implementations of the receiver software".... ahahahaha.... IOW,
**** Ashby himself says NO relativity is required for GPS *****
>
[Erictum]
kenseto
> "Tom Potter" <tdp1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1178634262.2...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Sam Wormley" <sworml...@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:wTT%h.
Right that means that these effect are not symmetric. Get it????
hanson
In your last 4 posts you have shown that all you can do is talk "shit".
BUT ***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
or has your yenta beat your ass so bad that the welts still hurt ya?...
["car & arsch"] aka <karand...@yahoo.com> cussed in message
news:1178633677.4...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com
news:1178490618....@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
news:1178575092.5...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
news:1178475823....@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
& angrily explained his ken about GPS with "shit eating" for some reason:
>
[arsch]
> <Louis Savain imbecilities snipped>
> So you couldn't prove it, shitforbrains. Nothing new.
> You can go back to your daily regimen of shiteating.
>
...ahahahaha... Listen "arsch", you got "car"-ried away with your
Rela delusions, seeing things that are not there. Louis is nowhere
in this thread, but apparently the great man, Savain, looms large on
your mind. He destroyed the feeble sanctity of your faulty weltbild,
didn't he? See, arsch, you do suffer from the typical malady that
afflicts all Einstein Dingleberries, like yourself.... ahahaha...
Get help arsch, for your own benefit, DO LEARN FROM Louis!
>
[arsch cited hanson]
> On May 6, 11:20 am, "hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/3b1439f3c975898b
>> NOT for its design, production, testing or operations.
>
> Prove it, shithead.
>
[hanson]
ahaha... If you were sure about it, in your condition as an Einstein
Dingleberry, then you would not say that in such painridden anger.
Face it, you self-announced arsch, YOUR FAITH in SR/GR
cannot be proven, but it is gleefully taken for granted by Sales-
men & Marketers who do outsmart and con Einstein Dingleberries
like you, everytime and anywhere, like Tom Potter who outshines
you cerebrally. -- So, for your benefit, LEARN FROM Androcles'
profound factual & rational facts in his splendid treatise in:
>
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
Learn from Andro... It's for your benefit ... so that will never again
sound like being in pain from the whupping and arsch-beating you
got from your yenta... which was predicted without any relativity in here:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/3b1439f3c975898b
wherein it says
::: SR/GR is used to market and sell GPS, so that Einstein
::: Dingleberries of lower and higher orders, like yourself
::: are conned into buying the price-inflated GPS gismos and
::: then do have an excuse for their suspicious yentas, who yells
::: at them for being gullible and stupid and they can save their
::: ass with:
::: ***** "But Honey, Einstein made this" *****... ahahaha...
>
relativistically speaking that you got so irate... AHAHAHA...
Thanks for the laughs, Dingleberry karandarasch, ahahaha...
ahahaha... ahahahanson
>
Furthermore: ---- Mode d'emploi au professeur Ashby:
which the NG Einstein-Dinglenerries always love to cite.
Ashby himself says in it after 39 equations (!... ahahaha) :
"The net correction for clock offset due to relativistic effects that
vary in time is "Delta t = + 4.4428*10^(-10)*e* sqrt...etc " ... (39)
and then continues to add. " Eq. (39) can be expressed *without*
approximation in the alternative form Delta t = + 2 r * v / c^2 ... (40)
where r and v are the position and velocity of the satellite at the
instant of transmission. This latter form is usually used in
implementations of the receiver software".... ahahahaha.... IOW,
**** Ashby himself says NO relativity is required for GPS *****
just like you did in your web site:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/6600aebc1bce5701
Eric Gisse
> On May 8, 6:06 am, stevendaryl3...@yahoo.com (Daryl McCullough) wrote:
>
> > I don't know, but he had me fooled, temporarily. He waded
> > into a discussion about solutions to Einstein's field equations
> > and started talking about Schwarzschild metric and differential
> > geometry, so I assumed that he had some familiarity with physics.
> > But then he made an incredibly dumb statement, which is that for
> > the metric
>
> > ds^2 = c^2 dt^2 / (1 + K / r) - (1 + K / r) dr^2 - (r + K)^2 dO^2
>
> > the area of a sphere of constant r and t is
>
> > A = 4pi r^2
>
> That is correct. The area of a sphere as observed by the observer
> using the coordinate system of (t, r, O) is always (4 pi r^2)
> regardless of the metric.
It is only correct for the r whose domain is (2GM,infinity). I have
explained this to you before.
>
> > This is a mistaken worthy of a 15-year old. Make the substitution
> > r' = r+K, and you find that the area is 4 pi r'^2 = 4 pi (r+K)^2.
>
> This shows you do not understand the relations among the actual,
> invariant geometry, the metric, and the choice of coordinate system.
> <shrug>
I already explained this to you and you still misunderstand!
JanPB gave you an explicit calculation, and you still misunderstand.
TOO DIFFICULT FOR YOU.
>
> > Then in a more recent thread, he said
>
> > Proper time = spacetime / speed of light
>
> Again, that is very correct. This is how it is done in the very
> mathematics of SR. <shrug>
I asked for the meaning of proper time, not its' definition. You got
the definition wrong, too.
[....]
Eric Gisse
> "Sam Wormley" <sworml...@mchsi.com> wrote in message news:wTT%h.
>
> 102476$_c5.43282@attbi_s22...
>
>
>
> > Koobee Wublee wrote:
>
> >> Again, you do not understand the power of mathematics to solve 4
> >> unknowns (t, x, y, z) if presented with 4 independent equations.
> >> <shrug>
>
> > Shrugging Koobee Wublee *fails* to understand that the PVT
> > solution is pretty worthless without GTR corrected satellite
> > clocks. Shrugging Koobee Wublee further *fails* to understand
> > that satellite clock steering is orders of magnitude smaller
> > that the cumulative error without GTR corrections. Moreover GPS
> > was designed to operate autonomously without intervention for
> > up to six months.
>
> > Shrugging Koobee Wublee *fails* to understand that not all the
> > required relativistic corrections are via clock offset. Reminds
> > me of Blustering Potter.
>
> Sam, why don't you demonstrate your knowledge
> of the GPS system, and post a list of the
> "required relativistic corrections"
> and where and how the "corrections" are made,
Read the spec, stupid.
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf
>
> and explain why these corrections cannot
> be made with a "closed loop" system?
...because it is a stupid, computationally expensive way of doing
things that wastes actual time and money.
Eric Gisse
...because it isn't a symmetric situation.
karand...@yahoo.com
<Louis Savain repeated cretinisms snipped>
So you couldn't prove anything, shitforbrains. Nothing new.
Eric Gisse
....because it says so in the specifications that you continue to not
read.
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf
>
> I suggest that you patent your process of
> making atomic clocks oscillate at some desired frequency,
> while maintaining their short and long term stabilities,
> as this would be a very useful technique.
Wow Tom! Excellent idea. Too bad it was thought of a full 50 years
ago.
>
> And you should publish a scientific paper to show
> how one determines what model or person to credit
> "corrections" to, as this would be a major breakthrough in logic.
>
> --
> Tom Potter
>
mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu
terminology of any given field either actually understand what it is
about or just picked it (the terminology) and are throwing it around
trying to impress others and appear as if they know what it is about.
And, it that's the case, they'll obviously steer clear of any
interactions with somebody who does actually know what it is about.
But, based on my long experience on sci.physics, there is yet another
(and not especially rare) category, the people whom Feynmann called
"cargo cult scientists". People who are not only ignorant of the
meanings behind the terminology but don't even realize that there are
any meanings behind the terminology. Rather, for them it is just a
collection of magical spells which will generate some profound results
if only chanted properly. So, they're capable of uttering gibberish
while actually, really, truly believing that they say something
valuable and important. Pitiful.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
me...@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
Ahmed Ouahi, Architect
Yes, indeed!
However, as along all those things, the GPS, it is for a primordial as a
crucial use, along le most horrible political illusion.
However, which is, first of all, for an absolute precision weapons, as for a
police actions and as for the nuclear war planning, as to talk about it, is
a just a matter, if a people, they do know, what is all about, or they do
remains as they have had always been.
Therefore, sit down, why you do sit down, stand up, why you do stand up, now
do move back, why you do move back, do move more back, do not talk, do not
walk neither, and this is what they do want them to be, the rest, is a just,
to detour their attention, any time they do remark anything they do not have
to remark, and this what is all about, a definitely as a matter a fact.
--
Ahmed Ouahi, Architect
Think About That!
<mme...@cars3.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:0W40i.86$25....@news.uchicago.edu...
Phineas T Puddleduck
"Ahmed Ouahi, Architect" <ahmed...@welho.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, indeed!
>
> However, as along all those things, the GPS, it is for a primordial as a
> crucial use, along le most horrible political illusion.
>
> However, which is, first of all, for an absolute precision weapons, as for a
> police actions and as for the nuclear war planning, as to talk about it, is
> a just a matter, if a people, they do know, what is all about, or they do
> remains as they have had always been.
>
> Therefore, sit down, why you do sit down, stand up, why you do stand up, now
> do move back, why you do move back, do move more back, do not talk, do not
> walk neither, and this is what they do want them to be, the rest, is a just,
> to detour their attention, any time they do remark anything they do not have
> to remark, and this what is all about, a definitely as a matter a fact.
Who taught you English, and do they offer refunds?
--
Sacred keeper of the Hollow Sphere, and the space within the Coffee Boy
singularity.
COOSN-174-07-82116: alt.astronomy's favourite poster (from a survey taken
of the saucerhead high command).
Paul B. Andersen
> On May 7, 2:51 pm, Randy Poe <poespam-t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On May 7, 2:10 pm, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Koobee Wublee wrote:
>>> This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
>>> any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
>>> relativity. See the great reference below.
>>> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
>
>
> This may be true in which I won't even contest. However, 1 satellite
> does not make a GPS.
>
>> It ran for several days (20-some, I believe) with the uncorrected
>> correction was switched in.
>
> So, you don't know, and you just make up the history. Is that it?
http://www.phys.lsu.edu/mog/mog9/node9.html
>> Every clock since then has been calibrated to the GR-corrected
>> clock rate, not the earth clock rate.
>
> If on a periodic basis that I can synchronize all the clocks in the
> satellites, why would I even correct for GR effect?
Because the clock offset is updated once a day. During that
time the GPS satellite must keep in sync with GPS-time to within
a few tens of ns, (33 ns error = 10 meter error in position)
During one day, the GPS clock would drift off sync by 38 us
if the clock were not corrected. That's a thousand times more
than what can be accepted.
>> In other words, that correction was part of the design from before
>> the launch, beginning with the first satellite.
>
> This is not the case with four satellites in the receiver calculation.
The four clocks in the receiver calculation is to eliminate the need
for a precise clock in the _receiver_.
The clocks in _all_ the four satellites has to be correct within
a few tens of ns.
>
>>> With all satellites
>>> synchronized, it is a matter of solving 4 equations with 4 unknowns to
>>> determine all parameters of space and time.
Yes, that's true.
But as you said - the four satellites has to be in sync with
each other - to within a few tens of ns.
And how do you think this is achieved?
The satellites are _not_ communicating with each other.
Each satellite is individually synced to the GPS-time
_from the ground_.
So to be in sync with each other, each and every satellite
must be in sync with the GPS-coordinated time.
And to do that, its rate must be correct to within one part
in 10^12. Without the GR-correction, the rate would be 4.46*10^-10
too fast.
>> No, not "all parameters". All the *unknown* parameters, once
>> the clock rate has been taken out of the equations by
>> virtue of being pre-calibrated.
>
> Again, you do not understand the power of mathematics to solve 4
> unknowns (t, x, y, z) if presented with 4 independent equations.
> <shrug>
And the t is the time of the receiver.
The time of the four satellites must be known within
few tens of ns.
>>> The bottom line is that engineers seem to be orders of magnitude way
>>> more clever than the physicists. There is no need to call engineers
>>> idiots for that. <shrug>
>> The engineers wisely listened to the physicists and built
>> the GR correction into the clocks.
>
> Only these physicists would dream about a problem that is not in
> existence. <shrug>
It is a fact that the GPS clocks are adjusted to run slow
by a factor 4.4647*10^-10 prior to launch.
It is a fact that to stay in sync with the GPS-coordinated time
within the required precision, the clocks must not drift off
sync by more than 100 ns during each time the clock offset
is updated - typically a day. That means that the rate of
the clocks must be correct within 100ns/24h = ca. 10^-12,
which is in the order of the precision of the clocks.
It is thus a fact that without the correction,
the GPS wouldn't work.
But you are right - there is no problem.
The engineers were wise enough to listen to the physicist.
(Even if they didn't quite trust them, as the story about
the first satellite illustrates.)
The GPS works fine.
Paul
Jeckyl
news:o830i.2405$vX4.127@trnddc05...
> So, remember 2 things:
> (1) ***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
GR and SR effects are part of how GPS works. It cannot work 'without' them.
Because the effects are real.
Jeckyl
news:1178649060....@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
SR is symmetric when you do symmetric things.
GR is not symmetric.
Get it, fuck face?
hanson
Dingleberries. In your last 5 posts you have shown that all you can
do is talk "shit" and repeat it, literally, and being oblivious to the
fact that ***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
You sound more and more like this learned gentleman:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e1842edc4fnews:1178650096.7...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
news:1178633677.4...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com
news:1178490618....@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
news:1178575092.5...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
news:1178475823....@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
& angrily explained his ken about GPS with "shit eating" for some reason:
>
> <Louis Savain imbecilities snipped>
> So you couldn't prove it, shitforbrains. Nothing new.
> You can go back to your daily regimen of shiteating.
>
hanson
news:1342271...@corp.supernews.com...> news:o830i.2405$vX4.127@trnddc05... or in
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/7679827bcb8f275d
wherein it said:
>> So, remember 2 things:
>> (1) ***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
>
> GR & SR effects are part of how GPS works **[in Jeckyl's mind]**. It
> cannot work **[in Jeckyl's own mind]** 'without' them. Because the effects
> are real, **[but only in Jeckyl's
> imaginations do they need SR/GR]**.
>
[hanson]
.... ahahaha... there, there, my old friend....
See, Jeckyl, don't fall victim to (2) which
>> (2) *Young Einstein Dingleberries are destined to become EARs*
Eric Gisse
> ahahaha.... AHAHA... "arsch", listen, you are posterchild for Einstein
> Dingleberries. In your last 5 posts you have shown that all you can
> do is talk "shit" and repeat it, literally, and being oblivious to the
> fact that ***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
Then why do the GPS specifications specifically refer, on multiple
occasions, to relativistic corrections?
[snip remaining drool]
karand...@yahoo.com
<Louis Savain repeated cretinisms snipped>
So you couldn't prove anything, shitforbrains. Nothing new.
You can go back to your daily regimen of shiteating. Stay there, dog.
Tom Potter
"Eric Gisse" <jow...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:
1178672757.9...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
It appears that Gisse has never written a government specification,
or report.
Salesmen and grant seekers get things written into specs
and reports that promote their agenda.
And when I was young and wrote a government report,
I like all young, naive people,
** parroted ** what I read in other specs and reports,
and stressed the buzz words
that my agenda-driven supervisor directed me to stress.
I must point out to Gisse, and other young high school grads,
that "closed loop" systems are far superior
to open loop systems that are based on some model,
or the transfer function of some system.
And here is how a "closed loop" system works.
1. You make a model of what you want the system to do.
(Cam, function generator, constant (Fixed offset), etc.)
2. You compare what the system you want to control is doing.
(GPS system, audio amplifier, automobile velocity, Robot path, etc.)
with what you want the system to do.
3. If the system output varies from the model,
you use "negative feedback"
to force the system to comply with you model.
Open loop systems went out in the early 1900's.
Letting a system go about its' business
presenting you with its' transfer function,
or some open loop fixed model is fine,
if you like to sit around and sense (Watch, hear, feel, etc.)
random patterns, or patterns mapped to a fixed model,
but when intelligent beings
(Including a chicken crossing a road.)
want to navigate in a real world,
where the environment is modulated by things,
they don't operate "open loop",
they operate "closed loop".
Only fools, rocks, and ignorant people
operate "open loop".
Even the people that write specs don't operate "open loop".
The put things in the specs that try to force the system
(Powered by taxpayers.)
to do what they want the system to do.
(Enhance their power, wealth, security, comfort;
glorify them or their race, religion or nationality, etc.)
--
Tom Potter
*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
Tom Potter
Hopefully Gisse will post how the patent he refers to
"makes atomic clocks oscillate at some desired frequency,
while maintaining their short and long term stabilities."
As an example perhaps Gisse can explain how the
process would make the "atomic clock"
oscillated about 1% lower in frequency.
Does it adjust voltage, capacitance, inductance, pressure,
or what to get the "atomic clock" to oscillator
at a different frequency Gisse?
And how much do you have to adjust the independent variable
to get the dependent variable, the frequency of the atomic clock
to oscillate 1% lower?
--
Tom Potter
*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
Tom Potter
It is interesting to see that Gisse
does not know that the GPS system
is a closed loop system,
and that open loop systems go off and do their own thing,
regardless of how much money you spend to confine them,
or what open loop theory you base the confinement on.
--
Tom Potter
*** Time Magazine Person of the Year 2006 ***
Sam Wormley
>
> It appears that Gisse has never written a government specification,
> or report.
>
> Salesmen and grant seekers get things written into specs
> and reports that promote their agenda.
>
From Potter's response, it appears that he cannot understand the
Interface Control Document ICD-GPS-200D
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf
http://gps.afspc.af.mil/gpsoc/documents/IS-GPS-200D,%207Dec04.pdf
Sam Wormley
> Sam, why don't you demonstrate your knowledge
> of the GPS system, and post a list of the
> "required relativistic corrections"
> and where and how the "corrections" are made,
>
See: http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/download/lrr-2003-1_bw.pdf
Sam Wormley
>
> It is interesting to see that Gisse does not know that the GPS system
> is a closed loop system,
>
It is more interesting to see that Potter doesn't know beans about
how GPS works.
Sam Wormley
>
> Hopefully Gisse will post how the patent he refers to
> "makes atomic clocks oscillate at some desired frequency,
> while maintaining their short and long term stabilities."
>
> As an example perhaps Gisse can explain how the
> process would make the "atomic clock"
> oscillated about 1% lower in frequency.
>
> Does it adjust voltage, capacitance, inductance, pressure,
> or what to get the "atomic clock" to oscillator
> at a different frequency Gisse?
Potter, don't you know how a frequency synthesizer works? I mistakenly
thought you knew!
Eric Gisse
[snip control systems non-sequitur]
1) Nobody but you is arguing about control systems.
2) Saying that relativistic corrections are not used despite being
explicitly mentioned in the specifications at least a half dozen times
is fucking stupid.
Eric Gisse
[snip drivel]
Why would I know or care about the specific details of how atomic
clocks work? It isn't an open problem - it has been solved for
decades.
If I want to know, I'll do the research or ask someone at NIST rather
than ask a retired salesman whose only contact with the technology was
when he was selling it to those who are competent enough to utilize
it.
Androcles
"Tom Potter" <tdp...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1178689044.2...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Potty makes an interesting point.
Juvenile of Weak Reasoning is encouraged by positive feedback such as the
Roberts's, Baez's and the rest of the kook's insanity, whereas the negative
feedback you are attempting to apply to him has gone open loop, disconnected.
IOW he doesn't listen.
As he says himself, "I don't give a shit...".
That attitude means I don't give a shit about him either, and bingo, we have open loop.
Tilt.
Koobee Wublee
> It is not that bizarre. We naturally assume that people who use the
> terminology of any given field either actually understand what it is
> about or just picked it (the terminology) and are throwing it around
> trying to impress others and appear as if they know what it is about.
> And, it that's the case, they'll obviously steer clear of any
> interactions with somebody who does actually know what it is about.
I thought anyone working in the research of physics should understand
GR.
> But, based on my long experience on sci.physics, there is yet another
> (and not especially rare) category, the people whom Feynmann called
> "cargo cult scientists". People who are not only ignorant of the
> meanings behind the terminology but don't even realize that there are
> any meanings behind the terminology. Rather, for them it is just a
> collection of magical spells which will generate some profound results
> if only chanted properly. So, they're capable of uttering gibberish
> while actually, really, truly believing that they say something
> valuable and important. Pitiful.
After engaging in these rigorous discussions, I was very wrong about
even a tiny fraction of them that have understood GR, basic physics,
and mathematics.
<sigh>
Koobee Wublee
<paul.b.ander...@hiadeletethis.no> wrote:
> Koobee Wublee wrote:
> http://www.phys.lsu.edu/mog/mog9/node9.html
Professor Ashby's work is a classic. It is how physicists would
fantasize about GR and SR being utilized in the design of GPS, but in
reality GR and SR are not necessary.
> > If on a periodic basis that I can synchronize all the clocks in the
> > satellites, why would I even correct for GR effect?
>
> Because the clock offset is updated once a day. During that
> time the GPS satellite must keep in sync with GPS-time to within
> a few tens of ns, (33 ns error = 10 meter error in position)
> During one day, the GPS clock would drift off sync by 38 us
> if the clock were not corrected. That's a thousand times more
> than what can be accepted.
You still have not addressed my question.
> > This is not the case with four satellites in the receiver calculation.
>
> The four clocks in the receiver calculation is to eliminate the need
> for a precise clock in the _receiver_.
And also the absolute time in the satellites. <shrug>
> The clocks in _all_ the four satellites has to be correct within
> a few tens of ns.
They have to be synchronized very accurately to reflect the precision
desired. <shrug>
> But as you said - the four satellites has to be in sync with
> each other - to within a few tens of ns.
Yes.
> And how do you think this is achieved?
Not according to the absurdity of SR that is for sure.
> The satellites are _not_ communicating with each other.
Why not?
> Each satellite is individually synced to the GPS-time
> _from the ground_.
Abandoning the absurdity of relative simultaneity imposed by SR, you
will find many ways to synchronize all these clocks.
> So to be in sync with each other, each and every satellite
> must be in sync with the GPS-coordinated time.
What is the GPS-coordinate time?
> And to do that, its rate must be correct to within one part
> in 10^12. Without the GR-correction, the rate would be 4.46*10^-10
> too fast.
Since all satellites are in the same altitude, GR has no effect.
<shrug>
> >> No, not "all parameters". All the *unknown* parameters, once
> >> the clock rate has been taken out of the equations by
> >> virtue of being pre-calibrated.
>
> > Again, you do not understand the power of mathematics to solve 4
> > unknowns (t, x, y, z) if presented with 4 independent equations.
> > <shrug>
>
> And the t is the time of the receiver.
> The time of the four satellites must be known within
> few tens of ns.
It is all in there.
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
> > Only these physicists would dream about a problem that is not in
> > existence. <shrug>
>
> It is a fact that the GPS clocks are adjusted to run slow
> by a factor 4.4647*10^-10 prior to launch.
In reality, it is not necessary since you always have to synchronize
all these clocks at a regular basis.
> It is a fact that to stay in sync with the GPS-coordinated time
> within the required precision, the clocks must not drift off
> sync by more than 100 ns during each time the clock offset
> is updated - typically a day. That means that the rate of
> the clocks must be correct within 100ns/24h = ca. 10^-12,
> which is in the order of the precision of the clocks.
Yes.
> It is thus a fact that without the correction,
> the GPS wouldn't work.
As long as all the clocks are synchronized in which SR forbids such
action because of relative simultaneity, there is no need to know the
absolute time.
> But you are right - there is no problem.
> The engineers were wise enough to listen to the physicist.
And abandon the absurdity that are imposed by SR.
> (Even if they didn't quite trust them, as the story about
> the first satellite illustrates.)
> The GPS works fine.
Yes, indeed. There is no relative simultaneity that allows GPS to
work fine. <shrug>
Eric Gisse
> On May 8, 2:06 pm, "Paul B. Andersen"
>
> <paul.b.ander...@hiadeletethis.no> wrote:
> > Koobee Wublee wrote:
> >http://www.phys.lsu.edu/mog/mog9/node9.html
>
> Professor Ashby's work is a classic. It is how physicists would
> fantasize about GR and SR being utilized in the design of GPS, but in
> reality GR and SR are not necessary.
Liiiiiar.
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf
>
> > > If on a periodic basis that I can synchronize all the clocks in the
> > > satellites, why would I even correct for GR effect?
>
> > Because the clock offset is updated once a day. During that
> > time the GPS satellite must keep in sync with GPS-time to within
> > a few tens of ns, (33 ns error = 10 meter error in position)
> > During one day, the GPS clock would drift off sync by 38 us
> > if the clock were not corrected. That's a thousand times more
> > than what can be accepted.
>
> You still have not addressed my question.
The synchronization does not last - the GPS clock runs fast.
Amazing to see how someone who professes knowledge of GR and GPS
doesn't quite grasp that simple fact.
[...]
> Abandoning the absurdity of relative simultaneity imposed by SR, you
> will find many ways to synchronize all these clocks.
SR is not used, stupid.
>
> > So to be in sync with each other, each and every satellite
> > must be in sync with the GPS-coordinated time.
>
> What is the GPS-coordinate time?
Read the literature, stupid.
>
> > And to do that, its rate must be correct to within one part
> > in 10^12. Without the GR-correction, the rate would be 4.46*10^-10
> > too fast.
>
> Since all satellites are in the same altitude, GR has no effect.
> <shrug>
Stupid. The satellites broadcast a signal which is intercepted _ON THE
EARTH_, they do not communicate with each other.
>
> > >> No, not "all parameters". All the *unknown* parameters, once
> > >> the clock rate has been taken out of the equations by
> > >> virtue of being pre-calibrated.
>
> > > Again, you do not understand the power of mathematics to solve 4
> > > unknowns (t, x, y, z) if presented with 4 independent equations.
> > > <shrug>
>
> > And the t is the time of the receiver.
> > The time of the four satellites must be known within
> > few tens of ns.
>
> It is all in there.
>
> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
Stupid. Androcles does not know the difference between the curl of a
vector field and the vector field itself.
>
> > > Only these physicists would dream about a problem that is not in
> > > existence. <shrug>
>
> > It is a fact that the GPS clocks are adjusted to run slow
> > by a factor 4.4647*10^-10 prior to launch.
>
> In reality, it is not necessary since you always have to synchronize
> all these clocks at a regular basis.
In reality the synchronization is once per day, and the correction is
on the order of nanoseconds. Without it, the synchronization would
have to be every...hey whats 38,000 divided by 86400?
Yea, synchronizing every half second or so is _much_ more preferrable
than synchronizing every day. What were those idiotic engineers
thinking?
>
> > It is a fact that to stay in sync with the GPS-coordinated time
> > within the required precision, the clocks must not drift off
> > sync by more than 100 ns during each time the clock offset
> > is updated - typically a day. That means that the rate of
> > the clocks must be correct within 100ns/24h = ca. 10^-12,
> > which is in the order of the precision of the clocks.
>
> Yes.
>
> > It is thus a fact that without the correction,
> > the GPS wouldn't work.
>
> As long as all the clocks are synchronized in which SR forbids such
> action because of relative simultaneity, there is no need to know the
> absolute time.
SR is not used, stupid.
>
> > But you are right - there is no problem.
> > The engineers were wise enough to listen to the physicist.
>
> And abandon the absurdity that are imposed by SR.
SR is not used, stupid.
>
> > (Even if they didn't quite trust them, as the story about
> > the first satellite illustrates.)
> > The GPS works fine.
>
> Yes, indeed. There is no relative simultaneity that allows GPS to
> work fine. <shrug>
I love it how you say something stupid, and end it with <shrug>. I
wonder where you learned that from.
Sam Wormley
>
> Since all satellites are in the same altitude, GR has no effect.
> <shrug>
>
Wanna bet?
Relativistic Effects on Satellite Clocks
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5.html
Randy Poe
> In reality, it is not necessary since you always have to synchronize
> all these clocks at a regular basis.
When anti-relativists make this statement, I truly wonder if they
believe anything that comes out of their mouths. Does anyone
really believe this statement? Do they really think that a watch
that gains an hour a day is just as good as one that gains a second
a day, as long as you set each one to the correct time once a
day?
The difference in gain rate is close to 2000: Before the correction,
the drift is about 38000 ns per day. After, it's about 20 ns per day.
Let's imagine you and I each have a watch that gains an hour
a day. Once a day we consult a master clock and reset our
watches to be correct. We don't do this at the same time as
each other, nor do we do it at exactly the same time each day.
After a couple of days of never being able to answer when people
ask me the time, I go to the watch repair shop and have my rate
adjusted so I now gain only one second per day. Now when people
ask me the time, I tell it to them and guarantee that that time is
correct
within one second.
When they ask you, you tell them it could be up to an hour off.
Are we giving the same quality of time service to people asking the
time? Are these two watches truly equivalent if you want an accurate
time service 24 hours a day within one second? By all means tell
me how you'd engineer such a service around your watch.
- Randy
Androcles
"Koobee Wublee" <koobee...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1178698600.3...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On May 8, 2:06 pm, "Paul B. Andersen"
> <paul.b.ander...@hiadeletethis.no> wrote:
>> Koobee Wublee wrote:
>
>> http://www.phys.lsu.edu/mog/mog9/node9.html
>
> Professor Ashby's work is a classic. It is how physicists would
> fantasize about GR and SR being utilized in the design of GPS, but in
> reality GR and SR are not necessary.
I shall ignore Andersen here, he's a fool, but this is something you and I should discuss.
The document is signed
"Jorge Pullin
Tue Feb 4 22:28:54 EST 1997"
It appears to be a mid-term or end-of-term student thesis addressed to Neil Ashby,
hence the identity of the originator is uncertain.
Vague reference is made to something he calls "The Sagnac effect", without
stating what this "Sagnac effect" is.
"The Sagnac effect has an important influence on the system. Since most GPS users are at rest or nearly so on earth's surface, it would be highly desirable to synchronize clocks in a rotating frame fixed to the earth (an Earth-Fixed, Earth-Centered Frame or ECEF Frame). However because the earth rotates, this is prevented by the Sagnac effect, which is large enough in the GPS to be significant. Inconsistencies occurring in synchronization processes conducted on the Earth's surface by using light signals, or with slowly moving portable clocks, are path-dependent and can be many dozens of nanoseconds, too large to tolerate in the GPS. Thus the Sagnac effect forces a different choice for synchronization convention. "
It is instructive to analyze the effect thusly:
Let us suppose we have two satellites, one close to the Eastern horizon and one close to the
Western horizon, each with a line-of-sight signal to the receiver and both transmit their position
and time simultaneously. I shall ignore refraction through atmosphere for the moment
and deal with that separately. We further assume for the sake of simplicity that the receiver
is equidistant between satellites at the epoch of transmission.
Time passes, the Earth rotates, The E satellite rises higher in the sky and the W satellite sets
in the west, out of sight. The receiver is closer to the E satellite and further from the W
satellite when the signals arrive, and of course we compute the speed of the signals
as distance/time by definition. Clearly these speeds are
Speed(E) = |(X - deltaX)/(T-deltaT)|
Speed(W) = |(X +deltaX)/(T+deltaT)|
Since speed(E) =/= speed(W), the speed of light is not the same in all reference frames,
it isn't the same in just one. QED.
Amusingly, if we assume the speeds thus computed above are to both be c as supposed,
then Andersen's own infamous transformations come into full effect.
The Andersen transformations:
"That is, we can reverse the directions of the frames
which is the same as interchanging the frames,
which - as I have told you a LOT of times,
OBVIOUSLY will lead to the transform:
t = (tau-xi*v/c^2)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)
x = (xi - v*tau)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)
or:
tau = (t+xv/c^2)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)
xi = (x + vt)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)" -Paul B. Andersen
The receiver is both time dilated and time contracted due to its motion toward
one satellite and away from the other, which is absurd.
Watch the Norwegian troll (tusseladd) snip and squirm or simply ignore his
own stupidity to hide his embarrassment.
Back to the "Sagnac effect".
Sagnac is essentially a Doppler shift, shown here:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/AC/doppler.gif
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/AC/doppler2.gif
The result is a beat frequency, thus:
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Sagnac/Sagnac2.JPG
Since a GPS receiver is a digital device and the signals arrive at different
times, Sagnac and Doppler play no part in calculating position.
There is a problem with "steering" the satellite, though (uploading data).
You need to know where it is to tell it where it is.
Back to refraction:
Light curves through atmosphere due to refraction, the E and W
satellites can both be "seen" when they are below the horizon.
This is why the GPS height calculation has an error of 30 metres as compared
to the horizontal error of 15 metres, and why the FAA has not approved
GPS for aircraft use. You can't land a plane 90 feet above the runway, let
alone 45 feet to the side of it.
The error is good enough to steer a cruise missile for military purposes,
but not good enough for civilian use.
As to your comments in reply to Andersen, I agree with you, but realise
he is either stupid or merely a troll (or both).
Paul B. Andersen
> On May 8, 2:06 pm, "Paul B. Andersen"
> <paul.b.ander...@hiadeletethis.no> wrote:
>> Koobee Wublee wrote:
>
>> http://www.phys.lsu.edu/mog/mog9/node9.html
>
> Professor Ashby's work is a classic. It is how physicists would
> fantasize about GR and SR being utilized in the design of GPS, but in
> reality GR and SR are not necessary.
>
>>> If on a periodic basis that I can synchronize all the clocks in the
>>> satellites, why would I even correct for GR effect?
>> Because the clock offset is updated once a day. During that
>> time the GPS satellite must keep in sync with GPS-time to within
>> a few tens of ns, (33 ns error = 10 meter error in position)
>> During one day, the GPS clock would drift off sync by 38 us
>> if the clock were not corrected. That's a thousand times more
>> than what can be accepted.
>
> You still have not addressed my question.
It is clear from your comments below that you didn't understand
what I wrote above.
Another autist - impervious to external stimuli?
It doesn't matter what you think.
It is a fact that without the GR-correction, the GPS
- as it factually is designed and operated - wouldn't work.
>> But you are right - there is no problem.
>> The engineers were wise enough to listen to the physicist.
>
> And abandon the absurdity that are imposed by SR.
>
>> (Even if they didn't quite trust them, as the story about
>> the first satellite illustrates.)
>> The GPS works fine.
>
> Yes, indeed. There is no relative simultaneity that allows GPS to
> work fine. <shrug>
One question:
How is simultaneity defined in the UTC?
(_Coordinated_ Universal Time)
Simultaneity is defined in exactly the same way in
the GPS-coordinated time.
Paul
Randy Poe
> "Eric Gisse" <jowr...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:
>
> 1178672757.971592.180...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On May 8, 5:11 pm, "hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote:
> >> ahahaha.... AHAHA... "arsch", listen, you are posterchild for Einstein
> >> Dingleberries. In your last 5 posts you have shown that all you can
> >> do is talk "shit" and repeat it, literally, and being oblivious to the
> >> fact that ***** GPS works!... WITHOUT any SR or GR *****
>
> > Then why do the GPS specifications specifically refer, on multiple
> > occasions, to relativistic corrections?
>
> It appears that Gisse has never written a government specification,
> or report.
I have, and that is complete crap. You are not distinguishing
between a spec for something which somebody has to actually
build based on what you're writing, and a proposal.
>
> Salesmen and grant seekers get things written into specs
> and reports that promote their agenda.
No, "grant seekers" and "salesmen" do not write specs. Writing
specs is not part of seeking a grant, bidding a contract, or trying
to sell widgets. Writing a spec is a thing you do when you are
delivering on a contract that you've already sold. It damned well
better be buildable.
The fact that you can't distinguish between a spec and a
prop makes me wonder whether *YOU* ever operated in this
area of the real world.
- Randy
.-- .- -... -. .. --. @.-----.DOT.-- H. Wabnig
<Engi...@hogwarts.physics.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:463F56A3...@hate.spam.net...
>> Androcles wrote:
>>>
>>> "Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message news:463F4285...@hate.spam.net...
>>> > Koobee Wublee wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On May 6, "moortel the spermless eunuch" <d...@MoreSperm.hotmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > [snipped]
>>> >>
>>> >> This is truly unbelievable. The engineers made the GPS work without
>>> >> any garbage hypotheses called the general and the special theories of
>>> >> relativity. See the great reference below.
>>> > [snip crap]
>>> >
>>> >> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GPS/GPS.htm
>>> >
>>> > Idiot.
>>>
>>> Fuckhead. Cunt. Arsehole. Jerkoff. Moron. Shithead. Imbecile. Dolt.
>>> Einstein Dingleberry.
>>> [snip wet fart]
>>> Ignorance is educable, stooopidity is forever, Uncle Stoooopid.
>
>[snip wet fart]
> http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/ptti2002/paper20.pdf
>
>"First, there is the effect of time dilation. The velocity of a moving clock causes it to appear to run slow
>relative to a clock on the Earth. GPS satellites revolve around the Earth with an orbital period of 11.967
>
>hours and a velocity of 3.874 km/s. Thus on account of its velocity, a GPS satellite clock appears to run
>
>slow by 7 us per day.
>
>Second, there is the effect of the gravitational redshift, a frequency shift caused by the difference in
>
>gravitational potential. (The term "redshift" is generic regardless of sign, but for a satellite clock the
>
>frequency shift is actually a blueshift.) The difference in gravitational potential between the altitude of
>
>the orbit and the surface of the Earth causes the satellite clock to appear to run fast. At an altitude of
>
>20,184 km, the clock appears to run fast by 45 us per day."
>
>
>I've read your fucking bullshit, the operative word is "appears", because it doesn't actually happen,
>NOR CAN IT.
>Now read mine, you stoooopid IGNORANT bastard.
>Ignorance is educable, stooopidity is forever; and you ARE stoooopid. You are a sucker.
>
>
Hmm: Let Google decide.
"relativistic gps" 20 hits
"androcles is right" 5 hits.
See, Andro, you lose.
We do another run:
"relativity in gps" 2670 hits
"androcles is a scientist" 1 hit,
obviously arranged by Androcles himself.
Foul, very foul indeed.
Again, Androcles is the loser.
In the future we will more and more rely on the Google spider.
Discard elections, marketing research, religious issues,
and philosophical disputes. Just ask the Google Oracle.
Another one:
"hans hanson" "nice guy" 2 hits
"hans hanson" "asshole" 6 hits
Sorry, I did not make that up, nor did I influence the oracle
in any way. How could I possibly. The result is not an insult.
It's science.
Back again, let Google decide some controverse topic:
gps is relativistically corrected 551 hits
gps is not relativistically corrected 543 hits
(without quotes)
clear, but not overwhelmingly strong.
Should Google be unsure about the answer?
You know, oracles like to speak in mysterious conundrums.
relativity is essential for gps 186 000 hits
relativity is not essential for gps 133000 hits.
(no quotes)
Well, gentlemen, the issue may be put to rest.
We have founded a decision on almost absolute certainty,
and we may proceed to the next ...ahemm ... hehe,
Have phun!
w.
Androcles
"Randy Poe" <poespa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1178707291.1...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Take your head out of your arse, Poe.
Koobee Wublee
> On May 9, 4:16 am, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In reality, it is not necessary since you always have to synchronize
> > all these clocks at a regular basis.
>
> When anti-relativists make this statement, I truly wonder if they
> believe anything that comes out of their mouths. Does anyone
> really believe this statement? Do they really think that a watch
> that gains an hour a day is just as good as one that gains a second
> a day, as long as you set each one to the correct time once a
> day?
If GR effect is true, all satellites should have the same effect.
This will not affect the synchronization issues. As long as the
clocks in these satellites are synchronized to themselves, it would
not affect any users on the ground using any 4 different satellites to
locate their positions.
So, what is the phantom problem you are raising?
Koobee Wublee
To understand absolute simultaneity, you need to abandon the silly
Lorentz transform and thus SR.
> Simultaneity is defined in exactly the same way in
> the GPS-coordinated time.
Yes, absolute simultaneity. Only with absolute simultaneity, the
interference pattern of the MMX is possible.