Therbold Realty + Palatial Estate
ira...@gmail.com
Does Therbold Realty reduce the blood cost of Palatial Estate (or any
other loquipment cards) ? My guess is no, because it's not a location
until the action is successful and cost has already been paid.
If I have Guillaume Giovanni in play, and one of my minions with
fortitude gets a Palatial Estate, and then I draw a freak drive from
the hand size increase granted by Guillaume, may I immediately play
that freak drive? I think the answer is yes, because Guillaume's
effect occurs once the location is in play, which is before (or
during) the timing window for Freak Drive.
Thanks,
Ira
Name: Guillaume Giovanni
[LotN:PG2]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Giovanni
Group: 4
Capacity: 9
Discipline: obt CEL DOM NEC POT
Independent: While Guillaume is ready, you get +1 hand size for each
location you control. Guillaume gets +1 stealth on recruit and employ
actions.
Name: Freak Drive
[Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, CE:U/PV2, Anarchs:PG, LoB:PA2, Third:U, LotN:PR]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Fortitude
[for] Only usable at the end of a successful action (after resolving
the action). This vampire untaps.
[FOR] As above, but usable even if the action is blocked (play after
combat, if any).
LSJ
> Hello LSJ,
>
> Does Therbold Realty reduce the blood cost of Palatial Estate (or any
> other loquipment cards) ? My guess is no, because it's not a location
> until the action is successful and cost has already been paid.
Yes, it does reduce the blood cost of the PE.
> If I have Guillaume Giovanni in play, and one of my minions with
> fortitude gets a Palatial Estate, and then I draw a freak drive from
> the hand size increase granted by Guillaume, may I immediately play
> that freak drive? I think the answer is yes, because Guillaume's
> effect occurs once the location is in play, which is before (or
> during) the timing window for Freak Drive.
Yes.
ira...@gmail.com
On Jan 4, 5:09 pm, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Name: Guillaume Giovanni
> [LotN:PG2]
> Cardtype: Vampire
> Clan: Giovanni
> Group: 4
> Capacity: 9
> Discipline: obt CEL DOM NEC POT
> Independent: While Guillaume is ready, you get +1 hand size for each
> location you control. Guillaume gets +1 stealth on recruit and employ
> actions.
If I contest a unique location, does my hand size go up from Guillaume
before the contest takes hold? I think the answer is no, because the
card is immediately contested as it enters play, I never actually
control it, and therefore Guillaume's text doesn't trigger.
>> Does Therbold Realty reduce the blood cost of Palatial Estate (or any
>> other loquipment cards) ? My guess is no, because it's not a location
>> until the action is successful and cost has already been paid.
>
> Yes, it does reduce the blood cost of the PE.
That is clearly the designer's intent, since Therbold says "pool or
blood", but I don't understand why it works for loquipment. I thought
Palatial Estate was equipment until after the cost is paid and it was
actually in play. Could you clarify how this works, LSJ?
Thanks,
Ira
LSJ
> Hello LSJ,
>
> On Jan 4, 5:09 pm, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Name: Guillaume Giovanni
>> [LotN:PG2]
>> Cardtype: Vampire
>> Clan: Giovanni
>> Group: 4
>> Capacity: 9
>> Discipline: obt CEL DOM NEC POT
>> Independent: While Guillaume is ready, you get +1 hand size for each
>> location you control. Guillaume gets +1 stealth on recruit and employ
>> actions.
>
> If I contest a unique location, does my hand size go up from Guillaume
> before the contest takes hold? I think the answer is no, because the
> card is immediately contested as it enters play, I never actually
> control it, and therefore Guillaume's text doesn't trigger.
Correct.
>>> Does Therbold Realty reduce the blood cost of Palatial Estate (or any
>>> other loquipment cards) ? My guess is no, because it's not a location
>>> until the action is successful and cost has already been paid.
>> Yes, it does reduce the blood cost of the PE.
>
> That is clearly the designer's intent, since Therbold says "pool or
> blood", but I don't understand why it works for loquipment. I thought
> Palatial Estate was equipment until after the cost is paid and it was
> actually in play. Could you clarify how this works, LSJ?
It works because PE is a location.
ira...@gmail.com
> > That is clearly the designer's intent, since Therbold says "pool or
> > blood", but I don't understand why it works for loquipment. I thought
> > Palatial Estate was equipment until after the cost is paid and it was
> > actually in play. Could you clarify how this works, LSJ?
>
> It works because PE is a location.
I understand the ruling clearly, so thank you for that. I'm still
confused about the logic behind the ruling, though.
If you care to indulge this conversation and attempt to provide
insight into the reason behind the ruling, then:
What if there were a card, "Search your library for a location and put
it in play (pay cost as normal.)" In that case, could I fetch
Palatial Estate? I'm almost sure the answer is no, in the same way
that Jake Washington isn't an ally in the library or ash heap.
If that's correct, then Palatial Estate isn't always a location, and
at some point it becomes a location. When does it change from
equipment to location? It seems strange to me that the conversion
would occur before cost is paid (maybe as cost is paid?)
Thanks,
Ira
John Flournoy
I'll take a shot at it.
Palatial Estate:
This equipment card represents a unique location and does not count as
equipment while in play. The vampire with this location gains 1 blood
during each of your master phases (ignore excess blood).
It changes from 'equipment' to 'location' as soon as it is 'in play',
i.e as soon as the action to equip it succeeds.
Rulebook 6.1.3: "If the action is successful, the equipment card is
placed on the minion (and the cost, if any, is paid)."
So the point where the cost is paid is simultaneous with it changing
from equipment to location, looks like - you cannot pay the cost until
the card is being placed on the minion, at which point it's a location
and is reduced by Therbold.
(Especially if you view the sentence as 'put the card on the minion,
and then pay the cost' as a sequential pair of events, in which case
Therbold reducing it is obvious.)
>
> Thanks,
> Ira
-John Flournoy
librarian
> On Jan 7, 9:02 pm, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 7, 3:17 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>
>
> This equipment card represents a unique location and does not count as
> equipment while in play.
I think this is the key clause. It's always a location, but when in
play, it is not an equipment.
Compare to Jake W:
Jake Washington (Hunter) [FN:R2]
Cardtype: Master
Unique master.
Put this card in play. While in play, this card represents a mortal ally
with 1 life, 0 strength and 0 bleed <and doesn't count as a master
card>. During your untap phase, you may burn Jake to move up to 4 blood
from the blood bank to a ready vampire with no blood.
He is only an ally while in play, but the rest of the time, he is a Master.
I think that is the functional difference.
In other words, if there was a card that allowed you to go through your
lib and find locations, you could find loquipment, since loquipment is
always a location, and when it is in play, it is *not* equipment.
best -
chris
--
Super Fun Cards
http://stores.ebay.com/superfuncards/
auct...@superfuncards.com
James Coupe
<auct...@superfuncards.com> writes:
>John Flournoy wrote:
>> On Jan 7, 9:02 pm, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Jan 7, 3:17 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> This equipment card represents a unique location and does not count
>>as
>> equipment while in play.
>
>I think this is the key clause. It's always a location, but when in
>play, it is not an equipment.
LSJ has previously ruled otherwise.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/bc40dfe572592c72
[LSJ 19971020]
***
Loquipment is just equipment when it isn't in play (and is just
location when it is in play).
***
The card text of Palatial Estate (the card used in the example) at the
time was: "This equipment card represents a unique location." It didn't
have the "does not count as equipment" disclaimer.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Johannes Walch
> On Jan 7, 3:17 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>> That is clearly the designer's intent, since Therbold says "pool or
>>> blood", but I don't understand why it works for loquipment. I thought
>>> Palatial Estate was equipment until after the cost is paid and it was
>>> actually in play. Could you clarify how this works, LSJ?
>> It works because PE is a location.
>
> it in play (pay cost as normal.)" In that case, could I fetch
> Palatial Estate? I'm almost sure the answer is no, in the same way
> that Jake Washington isn't an ally in the library or ash heap.
I think for the cost part the explanation of John is pretty good. So the
answer to this question would be no. Else you wouldn´t be able to fetch
the palatial with a Magic of the Smith, which I have seen happen many
times (of course those could have been misplays).
--
Johannes Walch
Mr_Wyrm (AKA Pentex)
> I think for the cost part the explanation of John is pretty good. So the
> answer to this question would be no. Else you wouldn´t be able to fetch
> the palatial with a Magic of the Smith, which I have seen happen many
> times (of course those could have been misplays).
>
> --
> Johannes Walch
following your message, if frederick the weak take the Vast Wealth
action and the first equipment that shows is palatial:
1.- palatial is not an aquipment and will seqarch for the first
equipment (as you say)
2.- palatial is an equipment, frederick equip with it and you win the
game (because rules 18.9.4 "About Frederick the weak and special game
win clauses")
the first does not make any sense to me... LSJ please?
LSJ
> if frederick the weak take the Vast Wealth
> action and the first equipment that shows is palatial:
>
> 1.- palatial is not an aquipment and will seqarch for the first
> equipment (as you say)
>
> 2.- palatial is an equipment, frederick equip with it and you win the
> game (because rules 18.9.4 "About Frederick the weak and special game
> win clauses")
>
> the first does not make any sense to me... LSJ please?
The set-up statement "first equipment is palatial" answers the question.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/7001ea3f7803baf5
Malone
> > What if there were a card, "Search your library for a location and put
> > it in play (pay cost as normal.)" In that case, could I fetch
> > Palatial Estate? I'm almost sure the answer is no, in the same way
> > that Jake Washington isn't an ally in the library or ash heap.
>
> > If that's correct, then Palatial Estate isn't always a location, and
> > at some point it becomes a location. When does it change from
> > equipment to location? It seems strange to me that the conversion
> > would occur before cost is paid (maybe as cost is paid?)
> I'll take a shot at it.
>
> Palatial Estate:
>
> This equipment card represents a unique location and does not count as
> equipment while in play. The vampire with this location gains 1 blood
> during each of your master phases (ignore excess blood).
>
> It changes from 'equipment' to 'location' as soon as it is 'in play',
> i.e as soon as the action to equip it succeeds.
>
> Rulebook 6.1.3: "If the action is successful, the equipment card is
> placed on the minion (and the cost, if any, is paid)."
>
> So the point where the cost is paid is simultaneous with it changing
> from equipment to location, looks like - you cannot pay the cost until
> the card is being placed on the minion, at which point it's a location
> and is reduced by Therbold.
>
> (Especially if you view the sentence as 'put the card on the minion,
> and then pay the cost' as a sequential pair of events, in which case
> Therbold reducing it is obvious.)
Does Marie Faucigny's special ("Non-weapon equipment cards cost her 1
less blood or pool to equip.") reduce the cost of loquipment? I have
always assumed so, but now I'm not sure. If her special and TR both
do so, then at the moment the cost is paid loquipment must be both
equipment and location.
Johannes Walch
>> I think for the cost part the explanation of John is pretty good. So the
>> answer to this question would be no. Else you wouldn´t be able to fetch
>> the palatial with a Magic of the Smith, which I have seen happen many
>> times (of course those could have been misplays).
>>
>> --
>> Johannes Walch
>
> following your message, if frederick the weak take the Vast Wealth
> action and the first equipment that shows is palatial:
>
> 1.- palatial is not an aquipment and will seqarch for the first
> equipment (as you say)
You misunderstood me. I was referring to the hypothetical card that
would allow you to search you library for a location.
Searching for equipment and finding Palatial *does* work (as confirmed
by LSJ).
--
Johannes Walch
LSJ
> Does Marie Faucigny's special ("Non-weapon equipment cards cost her 1
> less blood or pool to equip.") reduce the cost of loquipment? I have
> always assumed so, but now I'm not sure. If her special and TR both
> do so, then at the moment the cost is paid loquipment must be both
> equipment and location.
Yes.
ira...@gmail.com
Aha. So that's really the complete explanation. Malone, nice
question asking to get the essence of the issue out of LSJ. :)
Thanks to everyone involved for clarifying this situation!
Ira