(LSJ) Orun questions
floppyzedolfin
Today's questions are about Orun.
Orun
[LoB:C, EK:C½] [ wow, hadn't noticed that; it's nicely put :) ]
Cardtype: Master
Master: trifle.
Put this card on a Laibon. For non-Orun cards played by Methuselahs
other than this Laibon's controller, this Laibon is considered to have
2 additional capacity. A Laibon gets an additional vote for every
three Orun he or she has. If this Laibon successfully bleeds for more
than 2 or successfully performs a (D) action against a non-mortal
minion, he or she burns one Orun. Burn this card if this Laibon has
more Orun and Aye than his or her capacity.
I'll focus on the second sentence of the card: "For non-Orun cards
played by Methuselahs other than this Laibon's controller, this Laibon
is considered to have 2 additional capacity.".
1/ Does this effect stack if I control mutliple Oruns on a vampire ?
Example: Other Meths have played nothing yet. I control Nana Buruku (8-
cap) with 2 Oruns. My predator plays Golconda: Inner Peace on Nana. I
decide not to pay 2 pool. Which one is it: I gain 10 pool, or I gain
12 pool ?
2/ In this topic http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/6bc6f300eaed47f8
you explain that Orun keeps track of all cards *ever* played. Little
question about the *ever*: Does the Orun "remember" of cards that got
played before it was played ?
Example1: My prey played Aranthebes with his vampire right before I
play Orun on my 4-cap vampire. The only played cards in the game so
far are my prey's vampire, his Aranthebes, my vampire and my Orun. Can
my 4-cap vampire reshuffle Aranthebes in my prey's library?
Example2: Giant's Blood was played before I played my Orun. The game
keeps track of it, but does that aknowledge my Orun somehow ?
3/ Just checking: Is Orun's increase-capacity effect lingering, or is
it triggered by the play of a card?
Example: The only cards that have been played in the game are
(chronologically) my Cesewayo, my Orun on Cesewayo, and my prey's
Karsh. Karsh attempts to enter combat with Cesewayo using his special
(for some cardless reason, Cesewayo is tapped). Can Cesewayo play Wake
with Evening's Freshness + Obedience?
Thanks !
LSJ
> Today's questions are about Orun.
> played by Methuselahs other than this Laibon's controller, this Laibon
> is considered to have 2 additional capacity.".
>
> 1/ Does this effect stack if I control mutliple Oruns on a vampire ?
> Example: Other Meths have played nothing yet. I control Nana Buruku (8-
> cap) with 2 Oruns. My predator plays Golconda: Inner Peace on Nana. I
> decide not to pay 2 pool. Which one is it: I gain 10 pool, or I gain
> 12 pool ?
Stack.
Google: "Orun stack author:LSJ"
First hit:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/ba4e2811e4779b0b
> 2/ In this topic http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/6bc6f300eaed47f8
> you explain that Orun keeps track of all cards *ever* played. Little
> question about the *ever*: Does the Orun "remember" of cards that got
> played before it was played ?
What else could "ever" mean?
Anyway, the cards in play before Orun is played still know who played them.
> Example1: My prey played Aranthebes with his vampire right before I
> play Orun on my 4-cap vampire. The only played cards in the game so
> far are my prey's vampire, his Aranthebes, my vampire and my Orun. Can
> my 4-cap vampire reshuffle Aranthebes in my prey's library?
That's in the link you gave: yes.
> Example2: Giant's Blood was played before I played my Orun. The game
> keeps track of it, but does that aknowledge my Orun somehow ?
From which effect of the in-ash-heap Giant's Blood are you looking for
acknowledgment?
> 3/ Just checking: Is Orun's increase-capacity effect lingering, or is
> it triggered by the play of a card?
It affects how every card played by other Methsuelahs sees the Oruned vampire.
In that sense, it is lingering, just like every other card-in-play's effect.
Orun doesn't actually increase the vampire's capacity, though. So that effect,
which doesn't exist, isn't lingering, no.
> Example: The only cards that have been played in the game are
> (chronologically) my Cesewayo, my Orun on Cesewayo, and my prey's
> Karsh. Karsh attempts to enter combat with Cesewayo using his special
> (for some cardless reason, Cesewayo is tapped). Can Cesewayo play Wake
> with Evening's Freshness + Obedience?
No. The Obedience you play is not an Obedience played by another Methuselah.
Stone
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a �crit dans le message de
news:h228mg$i8g$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> > Example: The only cards that have been played in the game are
> > (chronologically) my Cesewayo, my Orun on Cesewayo, and my prey's
> > Karsh. Karsh attempts to enter combat with Cesewayo using his special
> > (for some cardless reason, Cesewayo is tapped). Can Cesewayo play Wake
> > with Evening's Freshness + Obedience?
>
> No. The Obedience you play is not an Obedience played by another
Methuselah.
But Karsh has been played as a crypt card, so should see Cesewayo as a
12-cap ?
I'm a bit confused by this Orun thingy, it was released when I was in
torpor..
another question : Meth A controls a 10-cap with 2 Orun. The other 4 meths
have played each 10 cards in previous turns of the game, so 40 cards total.
Then someone else than A calls the 41th card, a Reins of Power. Is the vamp
with Orun treated as a 10+(40+1)*2 = 92 capacity, making A's prey lose 86
pool if the Reins passes ? sounds silly, but this "keeps track of all cards
ever played" thing puzzles me.
Stone
LSJ
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a �crit dans le message de
> news:h228mg$i8g$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>>> Example: The only cards that have been played in the game are
>>> (chronologically) my Cesewayo, my Orun on Cesewayo, and my prey's
>>> Karsh. Karsh attempts to enter combat with Cesewayo using his special
>>> (for some cardless reason, Cesewayo is tapped). Can Cesewayo play Wake
>>> with Evening's Freshness + Obedience?
>> No. The Obedience you play is not an Obedience played by another
> Methuselah.
>
> But Karsh has been played as a crypt card, so should see Cesewayo as a
> 12-cap ?
Yep. Karsh sees hm as a 12-cap.
Cesewayo sees himself as a 10-cap.
Cesewayo sees Karsh as a 10-cap.
Karsh sees himself as a 10-cap.
But all of that is moot, since those cards' effects do not care about capacities
(except inasfar as restricting how much blood they hold respectively).
What's important to Obedience is the capacity Obedience sees.
Obedience played by the conroller of the Orun on Cesewayo sees Cesewayo as a
10-cap. And it sees Karsh as a 10-cap. So it sees them as being the same age.
> another question : Meth A controls a 10-cap with 2 Orun. The other 4 meths
> have played each 10 cards in previous turns of the game, so 40 cards total.
> Then someone else than A calls the 41th card, a Reins of Power. Is the vamp
> with Orun treated as a 10+(40+1)*2 = 92 capacity, making A's prey lose 86
> pool if the Reins passes ? sounds silly, but this "keeps track of all cards
> ever played" thing puzzles me.
Orun does not increase the vampire's capacity.
Just like Ian's ability does not give him Animalism.
And Sonja Blue blocking as an ally doesn't make her an ally.
And Mata Hari's ability does not make her a Camarilla Ishtarri.
Orun also doesn't keep track of other cards. Other cards in play keep track of
themselves. They know who played them. Just like cards being play know who's
playing them.
Reins of Power sees the 10-cap with 2 Orun as a 14-cap.
Stone
>
> What's important to Obedience is the capacity Obedience sees.
> Obedience played by the conroller of the Orun on Cesewayo sees Cesewayo as
a
> 10-cap. And it sees Karsh as a 10-cap. So it sees them as being the same
age.
>
ok, another situation :
vamp A, capacity 8+Orun
vamp B, capacity 10
A plays Bum's Rush on B, isn't blocked.
Can B play Obedience ? I guess Obedience sees A as a 10-cap, but I'm not
sure if it "sees" before or after being played. I guess before, so Obedience
couldn't be played...right ?
Stone
LSJ
Obedience played by B would see A as 10 and B as 10, so would self-restrict and
therefore cannot be played, right.
Daneel
> Stone wrote:
>> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a ï¿œcrit dans le message de
>> news:h228mg$i8g$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>>>> Example: The only cards that have been played in the game are
>>>> (chronologically) my Cesewayo, my Orun on Cesewayo, and my prey's
>>>> Karsh. Karsh attempts to enter combat with Cesewayo using his special
>>>> (for some cardless reason, Cesewayo is tapped). Can Cesewayo play Wake
>>>> with Evening's Freshness + Obedience?
>>> No. The Obedience you play is not an Obedience played by another
>> Methuselah.
>>
>> But Karsh has been played as a crypt card, so should see Cesewayo as a
>> 12-cap ?
>
> Yep. Karsh sees hm as a 12-cap.
> Cesewayo sees himself as a 10-cap.
> Cesewayo sees Karsh as a 10-cap.
> Karsh sees himself as a 10-cap.
>
> But all of that is moot, since those cards' effects do not care about
> capacities (except inasfar as restricting how much blood they hold
> respectively).
>
> What's important to Obedience is the capacity Obedience sees.
> Obedience played by the conroller of the Orun on Cesewayo sees Cesewayo
> as a 10-cap. And it sees Karsh as a 10-cap. So it sees them as being the
> same age.
Assume Cesewayo, with an Orun, is taken control via Temptation. Would the
Reins of Power played by him while under the temporary control effect see
him as a 12-cap?
--
Regards,
Daneel
Chris Berger
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:56:00 -0400, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > Stone wrote:
> >> "LSJ" <vtes...@white-wolf.com> a écrit dans le message de
> >>news:h228mg$i8g$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> >>>> Example: The only cards that have been played in the game are
> >>>> (chronologically) my Cesewayo, my Orun on Cesewayo, and my prey's
> >>>> Karsh. Karsh attempts to enter combat with Cesewayo using his special
> >>>> (for some cardless reason, Cesewayo is tapped). Can Cesewayo play Wake
> >>>> with Evening's Freshness + Obedience?
> >>> No. The Obedience you play is not an Obedience played by another
> >> Methuselah.
>
> >> But Karsh has been played as a crypt card, so should see Cesewayo as a
> >> 12-cap ?
>
> > Yep. Karsh sees hm as a 12-cap.
> > Cesewayo sees himself as a 10-cap.
> > Cesewayo sees Karsh as a 10-cap.
> > Karsh sees himself as a 10-cap.
>
> > But all of that is moot, since those cards' effects do not care about
> > capacities (except inasfar as restricting how much blood they hold
> > respectively).
>
> > What's important to Obedience is the capacity Obedience sees.
> > Obedience played by the conroller of the Orun on Cesewayo sees Cesewayo
> > as a 10-cap. And it sees Karsh as a 10-cap. So it sees them as being the
> > same age.
>
> Assume Cesewayo, with an Orun, is taken control via Temptation. Would the
> Reins of Power played by him while under the temporary control effect see
> him as a 12-cap?
>
controller" is in any way vague?
Daneel
<ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> On Jun 26, 10:41ï¿œam, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:56:00 -0400, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> > Stone wrote:
>> >> "LSJ" <vtes...@white-wolf.com> a ï¿œcrit dans le message de
>> ￜ Reins of Power played by him while under the temporary control effect
>> see
>> ￜ him as a 12-cap?
>>
> What part of "played by Methuselahs other than this Laibon's
> controller" is in any way vague?
The part where I assumed by reading the examples (admittedly without
looking at the card text) that Orun refers to the Orun's controller,
not the vampire's controller.
It's pretty clear if it refers to the vampire. Which it does, I just read
the text.
--
Regards,
Daneel
Juggernaut1981
Vamp A is a 5-cap and has 2 Orun.
Vamp B is a 7-cap plays a card that has a Capacity-Clause (e.g. Enter
combat with a minion of X or more/less capacity)
Vamp Bs card checks Vamp As capacity. The action reads Vamp A as
capacity = 5 + 2x2 = 9 cap.
Example Cards:
Obedience. Obedience played by Vamp B would "see" Vamp A as a 9-cap
(> 7-cap) so it cannot be played since Vamp A does not meet the
"younger" text.
Founders of the Ebony Kingdom. Batsheva (7cap) has 1 Orun and plays
Founders of the Ebony Kingdom. Founders sees that Batsheva is a (7+2)
cap so she may put Founders of the Ebony Kingdom onto any 8-cap or
smaller vampire.
Soul Gem of Etrius. The Soul Gem causes Vamp A to explode. The Soul
Gem thinks that Vamp A has capacity = 5 + 2x2 = 9cap so if the top
crypt card is 8-cap or less it goes to the Ready Region and if the top
crypt card is 9-cap or greater the Soul Gem burns and the vampire is
placed in the Uncontrolled region.
Summary: When a card looks at capacity, EACH Orun makes them APPEAR to
be 2-cap larger.
Xexyz
>> Founders of the Ebony Kingdom. Batsheva (7cap) has 1 Orun and plays
> Founders of the Ebony Kingdom. Founders sees that Batsheva is a (7+2)
> cap so she may put Founders of the Ebony Kingdom onto any 8-cap or
> smaller vampire.
>
> Soul Gem of Etrius. The Soul Gem causes Vamp A to explode. The Soul
> Gem thinks that Vamp A has capacity = 5 + 2x2 = 9cap so if the top
> crypt card is 8-cap or less it goes to the Ready Region and if the top
> crypt card is 9-cap or greater the Soul Gem burns and the vampire is
> placed in the Uncontrolled region.
>
> Summary: When a card looks at capacity, EACH Orun makes them APPEAR to
> be 2-cap larger.
All of the above is incorrect. Orun only makes the vampire's capacity
count as larger in regard to cards played by other Methuselahs. So in
the cases above regarding Founders of the Ebony Kingdom and Soul Gem,
Orun's capacity increasing effect is not triggered because the cards
are being played by the Methuselah who controls the vampires who have
the Orun played on them.
Chaitan
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:56:00 -0400, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > Stone wrote:
>
> - Visa citerad text -
Orun:
For non-Orun cards played by Methuselahs other than this Laibon's
controller, this Laibon is considered to have 2 additional capacity.
Temptation:
untap that vampire and *take control* of him or her until the end of
your turn.
Reins of power won't see Cesewayo as a 12-cap because Cesewayo isn't
controlled by a Methuselah other than this Laibon's controller.
Ira Fay
> Orun does not increase the vampire's capacity.
> Just like Ian's ability does not give him Animalism.
> And Sonja Blue blocking as an ally doesn't make her an ally.
> And Mata Hari's ability does not make her a Camarilla Ishtarri.
>
> Orun also doesn't keep track of other cards. Other cards in play keep track of
> themselves. They know who played them. Just like cards being play know who's
> playing them.
>
> Reins of Power sees the 10-cap with 2 Orun as a 14-cap.
I have a 2-cap with 2 Orun, then my prey plays Seal of Veddartha, then
I steal that equipment. Can my 2-cap with 2 Orun use the Seal,
because the Seal was played by another Methuselah? I think the answer
is yes.
If so, does it matter when I play my Oruns relative to when the Seal
is played and/or when the equipment stealing happens? I think not.
Thanks,
Ira
Seal of Veddartha
Equipment
[1 Pool]
Unique equipment.
Only usable by a vampire with capacity above 5. This vampire can bleed
at +1 bleed as a (D) action. During each of your untap phases, put a
counter on this card if it has 3 or fewer counters. The first 2
counters each grant this vampire one level of Dominate [dom] . The
next 2 each grant this vampire one level of Fortitude [for] . Remove
all counters from this card if another minion gains control of it.
Orun
Master
Master: trifle.
Put this card on a Laibon. For non-Orun cards played by Methuselahs
other than this Laibon's controller, this Laibon is considered to have
LSJ
> I have a 2-cap with 2 Orun, then my prey plays Seal of Veddartha, then
> I steal that equipment. Can my 2-cap with 2 Orun use the Seal,
> because the Seal was played by another Methuselah? I think the answer
> is yes.
Yes, the Seal was played by another Methuselah. The rest follows explicitly.
>
> If so, does it matter when I play my Oruns relative to when the Seal
> is played and/or when the equipment stealing happens? I think not.
Correct: the order doesn't change who played the Seal.
Blooded Sand
This would lead me to assume the following:
Blythe Candelaria has Atonement on her, attempts to block a 2 cap
Laibon, no tap for successful block
Blythe Candelaria has Atonement on her, attempts to block a 2 cap
Laibon with one Orun, tap for successful block
correct?
floppyzedolfin
> This would lead me to assume the following:
> Blythe Candelaria has Atonement on her, attempts to block a 2 cap
> Laibon, no tap for successful block
> Blythe Candelaria has Atonement on her, attempts to block a 2 cap
> Laibon with one Orun, tap for successful block
> correct?
Yep. In the first case, Atonement sees Blythe as a 3-cap, and a 2-cap
Laibon with no Orun as a 2-cap, therefore Blythe would not tap for
successfully blocking the 2-cap Laibon with no Orun
In the second case, Atonement sees Blythe as a 3-cap, and a 2-cap
Laibon with one Orun as a 4-cap, therefore Blythe will tap for
successfully blocking the 2-cap Laibon with one Orun.
Same as above, but with Atonement instead of Obedience.
Blooded Sand
Now for some more complexity.
My Titi Camara has atonement and 5 Oruns. When Titi blocks, as what
capacity does the actor see him? The actor, after all, is a card
played by another Methuselah...
Because this seems to mean that this 5 cap would now not tap to block
vamps with capacity less than 12....
floppyzedolfin
The actor sees Titi Camara as a 5 (Titi is a 5-cap) + 2 *5 (5 Orun) =
15 cap.
And he would indeed tap for successfully blocking any vampire with
capacity above 5. Because Atonement sees him as a 5-cap, and that's
what matters for Atonement.
As LSJ said, the capacity the actor sees Titi has nothing to do with
[Obedience / Atonement].
He's a funny trick:
Titi Camara (5-cap) has an Orun and an Atonement. My predator's
Kenyatta (4-cap) has an Orun too. When Titi Camara blocks Kenyatta,
Titi is considered a 7-cap by Kenyatta, who is a 4-cap. But still,
Atonement sees Titi as a 5-cap, and Kenyatta as a 6-cap. So Titi does
tap when he blocks Kenyatta.
Blooded Sand
Okay, but if for example, i had stolen Titi, with Atonement already on
him, and then played 5 oruns on him, he would not tap? As the
atonement was played by another player....
LSJ
> On Jul 1, 12:32 pm, floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 1, 12:22 pm, Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> My Titi Camara has atonement and 5 Oruns. When Titi blocks, as what
>>> capacity does the actor see him? The actor, after all, is a card
>>> played by another Methuselah...
>>> Because this seems to mean that this 5 cap would now not tap to block
>>> vamps with capacity less than 12....
>> The actor sees Titi Camara as a 5 (Titi is a 5-cap) + 2 *5 (5 Orun) =
>> 15 cap.
>> And he would indeed tap for successfully blocking any vampire with
>> capacity above 5. Because Atonement sees him as a 5-cap, and that's
>> what matters for Atonement.
>> As LSJ said, the capacity the actor sees Titi has nothing to do with
>> [Obedience / Atonement].
>
> him, and then played 5 oruns on him, he would not tap? As the
> atonement was played by another player....
Yes. That's it, explicitly. There are only two cases to consider:
A non-Orun card played by any Methuselah other than the controller of the Laibon
with the Orun.
Any other card (i.e., a card not in the first group).
Cards in the first group see the Laibon with the Orun as having 2 additional
capacity.
Cards in the second group do not.
floppyzedolfin
Yeah, I considered you played Titi and the Atonement. In the case you
attempt to block with a vampire who has an Atonement another player
played and 5 Orun (whoever played those doesn't matter), then the
Atonement (not played by you) sees Titi (controlled by you) as a 15-
cap vampire. In that case, if Atonement doesn't see the acting
vampire's capacity over 15, then Titi won't tap for successfully
blocking him.