Added Page "Atlas of Polar Images Above Lat 80"

[cano...@yahoo.com]

I have added a test grid design for discussion purposes. The purpose
of the grid is to organize images submitted by libration and
illumination, e.g. terminator position. In the grid, east terminators
are positive numbers; west terminators are negative numbers. Some
samples using images from the Finder page have been populated into the
grid as examples of how indexing would look.

On initial use, I concluded that the grid may be too difficult for
most people to use. It requires advanced understanding of HTML
editing. The native Google Groups tools will not properly insert a
link to the image into a table cell. But the result seems intuitive
and easy to use.

Comments are invited. - Kurt

Click on http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/atlas-of-polar-images-above-lat-80
- or copy & paste it into your browser's address bar if that doesn't
work.

[cano...@yahoo.com]

Dear Group,

I have added three images to the grid from the recent south polar
favorable libration:

CAshcraft_20090201_2329UT_south.jpg
CAshcraft_20090131_2224UT.jpg
CAshcraft_20090130_2254UT_south.jpg

- and also Bondo's image:

HBondo_200901072045.jpg

Clif's three images of the southern target region is of particular
interest. They are taken between -7 ot -5 libration in E30 to E0
illumination. The bright flank of Leibnitz Beta appears to provide a
good, consistent bright spot on which to fix autoguiding software
during these libration-illumination combinations.

The Atlas of the Poles Grid is at page

http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/atlas-of-polar-images-above-lat-80


Clear Skies - Kurt

[Arnold Ashcraft]

Kurt:
Very interesting way to organize the pictures.
Clif

[cano...@yahoo.com]

Clif,

(To all generally) I wanted encourage everyone to continue to try to
take images as Faustini recedes back towards the limb through Feb. 6
so we have a complete set of pictures of Faustini over one lunar
libration "nod" of the south pole towards Earth. On Feb. 6, a
northern positive lunar libration "nod" begins for the north polar
region for Fibiger and Nansen F continuing though Feb. 13. Ditto for
the north beginning on the sixth.

Clif, thanks and thanks for taking the time to do all the imaging.
I'm thinking of looping back through the "Atlas" page and add a table
that gives details on each of the specific images included in the
grid, e.g. photographer, image file name, op coords, libration in lat
and long, etc.

- Kurt

On Feb 1, 8:38 pm, Arnold Ashcraft <wa2...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Kurt:
>         Very interesting way to organize the pictures.
>                         Clif

> > Clear Skies - Kurt- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Arnold Ashcraft]

Kurt:
I'll be imaging at every opportunity. Looks like none tonight. I
was hoping to grab a couple of videos before leaving for my chorus
rehearsal tonight, but the clouds are rolling in. Snow is forecast
for the morning. I'll check it out anyway around 6 pm in case there
is a sucker hole or two.
Clif

[cano...@yahoo.com]

On Feb 2, 2:08 pm, "canopu...@yahoo.com" <canopu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip> Clif, thanks and thanks for taking the time to do all the

imaging.
> I'm thinking of looping back through the "Atlas" page and add a table
> that gives details on each of the specific images included in the
> grid, e.g. photographer, image file name, op coords, libration in lat
> and long, etc. - Kurt

Jim Mosher has already made a start on this with his draft in-progress
"Index to Images" page. - Kurt

http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/index-to-images

[Jim Mosher]

Kurt,

This is a worthwhile effort, but I'm not sure there is any universally
useful way to organize photos of the Moon's poles.

As you probably know, the Moon's spin axis is inclined about 1.5
degree relative to the plane of the ecliptic. This inclination causes
the Sun to move north and south of the equator in a cycle that takes a
little less than a year to repeat, and creates seasons on the Moon,
much like (but less extreme than) those on Earth. The lighting at the
south pole is rather different during the southern summer (when
shadows are short) than during the southern winter (when shadows are
long and the extreme polar craters are in permanent darkness). The
peak of the northern summer -- i.e., the time of greatest illumination
at the Moon's north pole -- comes around April 15th this year; and the
peak of the southern summer around October 26th.

My gut feeling would be that one gets the best feeling for the
topography, and the variety of lightings possible, by displaying a
sequence photos showing the terminator sweeping over a given pole with
a fairly strong and constant libration towards Earth and a fairly
constant solar latitude: perhaps one sequence for "winter", one for
"summer" and one for the "equinoxes". Having the images at a uniform
scale and orientation is also very helpful for comparison.

Your attempt to classify the posted images using the terminator
position at the equator is a good start, but you may find you need to
add the third dimension of solar latitude (segregating the summer and
winter photos into different categories): the lighting at the poles
with the sunrise terminator crossing the equator at, say, zero degrees
longitude, and therefore the patterns expected to be seen from Earth,
can be quite different depending on whether the Sun's latitude is 1.5
N or 1.5 S. And we have little control over this. For example, the
photos obtained during the December 6-8, 2008 (UT) Training Exercise
show what is in sunlight when the Sun is at latitude 1.3 S on the
Moon, while those during the January 2, 2009 Training Exercise have
the Sun at 0.8 S, and it is currently at around 0.1 N (and
increasing). If the LCROSS impact occurs in early August 2009, the
Sun's latitude will be around 0.3 S. This variability, coupled with
the ever changing librations in both latitude and longitude, is one of
the reasons I think the most useful finder charts for the upcoming
LCROSS impact will be generated using simulations validated by
comparison with past observations at known dates and times; or by
searching for observations from the (possibly distant) past when
conditions approximated more closely the expected ones at the time of
impact.

Aside from this fundamental problem, here are some specific comments:

1. I am guessing that by terminator position you mean the longitude of
the terminator at the equator, and that this is the primary criterion
for assigning a particular image to a particular column. The images
could also be sorted by, say, the longitude of the terminator at 85 N
(or S, as appropriate). The longitude at those latitudes can be quite
different, although I'm not sure there would be much of an advantage
to sorting the images that way.

2. The lines that say "Terminator Type" are really redundant with the
table titles (which already identify the observations as "rising" or
"setting"), and could be deleted.

3. The rising/setting terminology, and the need for separate tables,
could be avoided by using the colongitude (90 deg - Sun's longitude on
Moon). There is a one-to-one relationship between these; although the
concept of colongitude may be less familiar and less intuitive to many
readers.

4. If photos are being classified by terminator position (or,
equivalently, colongitude), then the lines that list "Lunar Day" and
"Phase Angle" might be deleted. Unless I am misunderstanding how they
are being used, they do not help to determine which column a
particular image should be placed in, nor do they add any additional
information that the reader could not deduce equally well on their
own. Phase Angle is an observer-dependent quantity from which the
percent illumination can be computed. It can be deduced only roughly
from the terminator position, since it requires additional assumptions
about the state of the latitudinal and longitudinal librations. The
Lunar Day is something whose connection to the terminator position is
even looser. Again it can be estimated only very roughly from the
observed terminator longitude. Listing these as column headings gives
the impression there is a direct and invariable connection, which
there is not.

Again, please don't take this as a negative comment. This is a
worthwhile effort even though the result may not be perfect.

-- Jim

On Jan 31, 9:52 pm, "canopu...@yahoo.com" <canopu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have added a test grid design for discussion purposes.  The purpose
> of the grid is to organize images submitted by libration and
> illumination, e.g. terminator position.  In the grid, east terminators
> are positive numbers; west terminators are negative numbers.   Some
> samples using images from the Finder page have been populated into the
> grid as examples of how indexing would look.
>
> On initial use,  I concluded that the grid may be too difficult for
> most people to use.  It requires advanced understanding of HTML
> editing.  The native Google Groups tools will not properly insert a
> link to the image into a table cell.  But the result seems intuitive
> and easy to use.
>
> Comments are invited. - Kurt
>

> Click onhttp://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/atlas-of-polar-...

[cano...@yahoo.com]

Jim, Thanks for the comments. The table was developed in response to
the LCROSS Team's offline communication to you suggesting an
observational campaign to image the poles for potential use to aid
amateur and professional astronomers in locating consistent bright
spot features on the Moon at various phase angles on which autoguiders
of professional observatories can be fixed. I also perceived that
collecting images systematically through one libration at the north
and south poles as an amateur "atlas" or gallery had a certain merit
in its own right independent of whatever the LCROSS Team is doing.
Better classification of images in a 3d format by seasonality due to
illumination changes from the inclination of Moon's orbital plane is a
good idea. My own feeling was that it could not be incorporated into
a simple graphical layout as demonstrated on the Atlas page.

An equally effective, alternative presentation layout would be a
simple table in the form of "Index to Images" that sorts images by
libration lat, libration long, terminator long, and by date. I felt
the graphical layout was easier for most people to immediately grasp
and that since this is not a long project, the number of likely images
to be gathered in three or four months did not warrant the ability to
handle more images that a table list would provide or outweigh the
ease of visual perception that a graphical layout gives to the average
reader.

As to redundant column labeling, lunar amateurs, in my experience at
star parties and on lunar internet newsgroups, use a wide variety of
lunation measurements. Some use terminator position, some like to use
lunar days. The LCROSS Team members who wrote you mentioned a
preference for phase angle. I happen to personally use phase and
terminator location. Terminator location is meaningless without also
stating whether it is rising or setting. Labeling the columns with
more than one type of lunation measure was intended to address the
visual preferences of a range of likely readers. Yes, there is some
imprecision built-into such a graphical layout, but if it aids a
broader range of likely readers, the imprecision is warranted because
it makes the layout more useable by all readers.

Please feel free to revise the entire page and replace it with
something that you feel would work better or be more precise. The
strength of these shared authorship venues is more bright minds making
the best draft. I have captured an archival copy of the current page
and have no strong feelings about any or everyone else editing or
revising it.

Assuming that Rick's representation (which may or may not be
authorized or may or may not be current - no dig intended, Rick) that
a final northern region target has been selected, I can see little
point in continuing to collect images of the southern region. Since
there is no one that is officially connected with the LCROSS Team, for
example an Ames intern who works with the team on a daily basis, that
is visiting this site let's say once a week and who can act as a
conduit back to what the Team would really like or not like without
eating up the Team's valuable time, I am at loss as to whether to
continue since any effort may or may not be productive.

However, I would encourage the group as a whole to continue with the
Atlas of poles, both north and south, as that seems a worthy
collective amateur imaging project independent of LCROSS plans. I
certainly intend to continue to work on it.

Whereever the group cares to go on such a proposed activity, I am
happy to follow.

Jim, sorry to do a 180 on you and go negative, but that's how I feel
about it.

- Kurt

[cano...@yahoo.com]

P.S. - My bad. I'll remember to add the LCROSS prefix to the email
header in the future.

[cano...@yahoo.com]

On Feb 2, 7:17 pm, "canopu...@yahoo.com" <canopu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> . . . I can see little

> point in continuing to collect images of the southern region.  

It would appear in reading Rick's statement that Colaprete said at a
Jan. 21 public lecture that the final LCROSS target was in the north
pola region for sure is still not a definite resolution. Colaprete
posted here on Jan. 28 indicating that the LCROSS Team would be
issuing an updated target list for both the north polar and south
polar target regions.

"Once we update these 'sweet spots' we will post a target list for the
north and south."
http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/msg/aff525018ab991c4

So continuing collecting south region appears the right thing to do,
IMHO, until there is a definitive statement otherwise.

Clear Skies - Kurt

[cano...@yahoo.com]

On Feb 2, 4:59 pm, Jim Mosher <jimmos...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kurt,
> This is a worthwhile effort, but I'm not sure there is any universally
> useful way to organize photos of the Moon's poles.

IMHO, the main strength in the graphic method is that readers can
immediately ascertain visually whether there are gaps in libration
that have not yet been collected. If the LCROSS Team indicates what
librations and illuminations they are not interested in, those cells
can be shaded so readers know to more productive imaging can be done
at other times. - Kurt

[cano...@yahoo.com]

On Feb 2, 4:59 pm, Jim Mosher <jimmos...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Kurt,
> This is a worthwhile effort, but I'm not sure there is any universally
> useful way to organize photos of the Moon's poles.

While it is desirable to collect more detailed information on data for
each image, including expanding data recorded in your "Index to
Images" table, there are limits to what can be done within the Google
Groups "Pages" interface and its HTML table creation feature. On a
broader level, essentially you are suggesting creating an index to
images that contains many fields. An example of a photo-data file is
the photo-data appendix to the Lunar Orbiter images that you
skillfully used as part of your LTVT software.

In short, the Google Groups "Pages" interface does not have the
features to support such detailed data collection.

I feel that your "Index to Images" should be expanded to a larger
table that includes the information you propose, but that the Google
"Docs" utility - an online shared suite of office applications that
run through a web browser is a better way to compile the information.
The Google "Docs" utility contains an online shareable spreadsheet
feature. That way you can invite multiple people to assist you in
entering information about the images into a common online
spreadsheet.

Go to http://www.google.com/intl/en/options/ and see the "Docs"
option.

I did a simple, partial layout for a shared Google spreadsheet, for
demonstration purposes:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pNGQ8owEHmzw5MhiLV1JRZw

I suggest you prepare a schema - a table layout - with all the fields
you feel are appropriate to gather and then distribute it to the
group.

The nice part of such an index is that participants here, as the group
dissolves, can take with them a good comprehensive list of the
images. Google spreadsheets allows the reader to print the
spreadsheet to html or other spreadsheet compatible formats.

- Kurt

[Rick Baldridge]

Thanks for the point --

I did not intend to say that photos, etc. and their associated concentration
of imaging the South Polar region should cease. Quite the contrary. Even
though the current launch date would dictate a north polar impact, as we all
know, there are MANY reasons that a launch will not occur on schedule, and
that a target N or S can still occur. My apologies if what I stated
diminished any current and future efforts to image the South Pole of the
Moon at favorable librations.

Several I.O.T.A. members have been in contact with me and indicated that
well established techniques of videotaping lunar GRAZE events would likely
be optimum for imaging the impact plume as well. I believe this to be quite
true. Many I.O.T.A. graze expeditions have successfully imaged 7th and 8th
magnitude stars VERY near the cusps of a quarter phase Moon with low-light
video equipment. I am preparing a list of graze events in the region of
observability that might be useful for testing equipment well prior to
impact, along with suggestions for imaging techniques and equipment.
Details to follow. The I.O.T.A website at:
http://www.lunar-occultations.com/iota/iotandx.htm
has a section on "Use of Video on Timing Events" that is quite helpful.

According to LCROSS PI Anthony Colaprete, the FINAL targeting decision is
made about 30 days prior to impact. The actual launch time and date dicate
most of the major decision points for the mission.



Rick Baldridge

[cano...@yahoo.com]

Rick, Thanks for the "straight dope" and acting as a moderator with
some access back to the LCROSS Team. Would you be willing to and is
it appropriate for you to have the role where you gather up any
questions from the group, let's say on a bi-weekly frequency, run them
past an LCROSS Team member?

- Kurt

[Derek C Breit]

Rick Wrote-

Several I.O.T.A. members have been in contact with me and indicated that
well established techniques of videotaping lunar GRAZE events would likely
be optimum for imaging the impact plume as well. I believe this to be quite

true. Many I.O.T.A. graze expeditions have successfully imaged 7th and 8th
magnitude stars VERY near the cusps of a quarter phase Moon with low-light
video equipment. I am preparing a list of graze events in the region of
observability that might be useful for testing equipment well prior to
impact, along with suggestions for imaging techniques and equipment.
Details to follow. The I.O.T.A website at:
http://www.lunar-occultations.com/iota/iotandx.htm
has a section on "Use of Video on Timing Events" that is quite helpful.

Hello Rick..

For those in and around CA, I have much info posted on my website for the SF
Bay Area, including ALL grazes, whether you can see them or not..
http://www.poyntsource.com/New/Grazes.htm
And
http://www.poyntsource.com/New/Morgan_Hill_Grazes.htm

Will this work??? I have a video I shot, of a graze of a star 7 hours after
a full Moon.. I have yet to post it or do a write-up for it..

If you have never seen a graze, I have several Videos posted on my website..
http://www.poyntsource.com/New/Gallery.htm

Here is a good one and also the smallest download.. 5 MBs..
http://www.poyntsource.com/New/Archive/Beta_Tauri.wmv

As a test, you would not have to actually go into the graze path (though we
would LOVE to have accurate timings for IOTA), rather you could just use
stars that will pass near the poles, whether Occulted, Grazing, or a Miss..
You could try this from where you already observe.. The Point is can you see
a mag 7 star anywhere near the bright limb of the moon??

Anyone interested in trying this, can feel free to email me..
breit...@hotmail.com

Anything I can do to help Rick..

Besides.. *It is what I do!*

Derek

[cano...@yahoo.com]

Derek,

Do you have any feel for how this would play out for less advanced
amateus who may only have a generic LPI camera?

[Derek C Breit]

Hello there..

Well.. First off I would not call an LPI "Less advanced" than what I am
using, just "different"..

While everyone is doing fabulous work imaging for mapping and pointing
purposes, for impact time, I think it will be more important to see, video,
image, stars of mag 6 to 8 near the bright limb..

See attached mini video.. Forget the satellite.. Dark Limb of the moon
visible.. Stars shown.. A touch of bright limb..

(if it doesn't come thru, send me a direct email..)

I also wouldn't stop the mapping images until someone says it is time to get
ready to watch the impact..
But practicing for impact time is important too..

I am no expert here.. I am very good at grazes.. Send me an direct email
with your latitude, longitude, and elev in meters, scope size in cm, and I
will help you find brighter stars near the limb for practice...

But don't stop the mapping images..

Derek

[Derek C Breit]

I have one wish for impact...

When picking an impact point and time, when in doubt go with the smaller
moon phase..

I did one of the early practice sessions, and the moon was 80 something
percent lit..

It was horrible for video..

First quarter or before.. That's what I wish for..

Derek

[Arnold Ashcraft]

Derek:
Any idea how the sensitivity of low light video cameras compare with
CCD based webcams like those from The Imaging Source?
Clif

[Derek C Breit]

Hi Cliff..

I have no experience with those cameras, but if you give me your latitude,
longitude and elevation, and scope size, I can tell you when a good time to
find out would be using a star near the moon..

You can record up to 30 frames per second with those cameras?? I know you
can do multiple frames per second..

For Occultations, where I try to time the disappearance and reappearance of
stars up to mag 9+ against the dark limb of the moon, the general setup is
to use the scope with a focal reducer in the realm of f4.. Mine is a 12"
LX200.. Come crunch time, I will undoubtedly point to the impact area and
not use a focal reducer..

For an imager, which I am not really, my point is that if you want to see
the plume, you will have to be able to reach the magnitude of the plume.. If
you think the plume will be mag 7, you are going to have to be able to image
a star near the bright limb of that mag.. Or dimmer..

While the images are fantastic for mapping, I have yet to see a single image
that shows a star..

As an imager, when you adjust things to show a star, by longer exposure,
stacking, stretching, whatever you guys do (:-)you will (probably) greatly
over expose the bright limb.. Then you have the problem of irradiance, where
the bright areas appear larger than they are.. Extending out from the limb
and making imaging a star, or an ejecta plume, rather difficult and why
doing this beforehand would be useful so as to know what to expect..

So, any camera, used by any imager, would work, some better than others..
Just aim to show some stars in the images..

If you happen to live near me (Morgan Hill, CA), then I have a camera for
someone to borrow, but that depends on Rick Baldridge.. He is already aware
of the fact we have many cameras in the area that might possibly be loaned
to who needs them as he sees fit.. (He might already have plans along these
lines, otherwise I have at least one extra camera)..

HOWEVER.. There is an old saying.. "You dance with who brung ya".. Use the
setup you have.. After you have acquired your mapping images like you have
been doing, and before you close down shop, go wider angle and image the
stars and the dark limb.. Keep the bright limb to less than 1/4 of the image
or so..

It is not that this is that difficult, it just might not be something you
have tried.. Better now than to be unprepared..

It is all about how dim of a star can you see how close to the bright limb.
More importantly, how close can you see a mag 7 star to the bright limb
before it gets lost in the irradiance??

Hope this is helpful..

Derek

[Derek C Breit]

Does anyone know the expected size of the plume (and magnitude) as a
function of time???

I am interested specifically interested in km above the limb..

Derek
www.poyntsource.com/New/index.htm

[Arnold Ashcraft]

Derek:
My camera (DMK31) records at 30 fps as well as lower rates. I can
take extremely short exposures, as well as time exposures with the
camera. The latter gives essentially time lapsed imagery and can go
pretty faint. Of course, you lose time resolution if you do that. I
have used my camera with a 55mm f/1.4 SLR lens on it and recorded
stars as faint as 12th magnitude. To do this I needed to use
exposures of about 2 seconds. This is my electronic finder mode, and
I find it a really powerful tool for locating faint things for the
main scope.

The telescope I have been using for the lunar photographs is my
7.25" Schupmann medial. It has an unamplified focal length of
100" (f/14), and for planetary photography I normally boost it to f/
35 or higher. When imaging Jupiter at these longer focal lengths,
the 4 Galilean satellites are easily imaged along with Jupiter with
exposures around 1/100th sec, and if I image Jupiter at f/14, they
are very bright. I also have an f/6 12.5" Newtonian which I normally
use with a 2x Barlow and my SBIG ST-8 camera for my double star
program. I will also be using this system to image the event, with a
little help from a friend (hard to use two telescopes at the same time).

My observatory is at 40° 13' 56.6" N Latitude, 75° 26' 37.6" W
Longitude (GPS), 164 ft above sea level (US Geo.Surv.Map).

I'm thinking that imaging the plume will not quite be as hard as
imaging a 7th magnitude star at the bright limb, but not as easy as
imaging the same star at the dark limb. Somewhere in between seems
more likely since up near the poles, the slanting illumination is
just not as bright as at the bright limb. This becomes painfully
obvious when I attempt to make a full lunar mosaic. When the
individual images are adjusted so that there is no obvious change in
illumination at the boundaries, I always end up having to make a
compromise between the correct brightness to do a good job on the
terminator and polar regions, which want more exposure, and the
bright limb or regions with high solar altitudes which need a lot
less to avoid saturating. A little high pass spatial filtering often
helps by toning down on large scale gradients in brightness.

Clif Ashcraft, Perrineville NJ

[Arnold Ashcraft]

Derek:
There's a slide in one of the LCROSS presentations that gives the
expected luminous intensity of the plume as a function of time.
Unfortunately, the units were not magnitudes, but rather watts per
miicron per square meter per steradian. I went through the math to
convert that into electrons per second in a pixel of my camera and
found that I needed an exposure that was quite similar to that
required for getting a good exposure of the nearby lunar limb. The
plume will also be silhouetted against either space or the dark
interior of the crater, so it should stand out. We are thinking that
the plume will get a couple of km above the rim of the crater.
Clif

[Derek C Breit]

Hi Cliff-

Yep!

Exactly..

Only one other thing I would recommend, which is probably automatic for
imagers, is to be sure and save the original, untouched images, before you
stretch, squash, and smash... Ummm I mean beautify... the linearity out of
the images...

:-)

Also.. Anyone not knowing EXACTLY where they are can use one of my
GoogleMaps for Asteroid Occultations and find out..
This one will be up for a few more days..
http://www.poyntsource.com/New/Google/20090125_17195.HTM

Click and zoom on your location and zoom and click etc..

When you see your exact spot, put the cursor over it, double left click, and
read the line of text directly under the map..

The TOPO Button near the top right and for the USA only, you can deduce your
elevation from the USGS TOPO maps..

Derek..

PS.. Cliff, please send me a direct email..

breit...@hotmail.com

[Derek C Breit]

Excellent!

If it hits 3km high, is mag 7 or brighter, and is on a 50% lit moon (or
less), it will be relatively easy for an 8" with video. Should be simple for
my 12"..

Derek

[cano...@yahoo.com]

There is a mission parameter that excludes targets that will be
visible too close to the new or full Moon. See Slide 18 in

Heldmann, J.L. May 30, 2007. Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing
Satellite (LCROSS) Mission: Opportunities for Observations of the
Impact Plumes from Ground-based and Space-based Telescopes. (Slide
presentation). Presentation to American Astronomical Society,
Honolulu, HI. url: http://lcross.arc.nasa.gov/docs/LCROSS.AAS.ppt

- Kurt

[Derek C Breit]

There is a mission parameter that excludes targets that will be visible too
close to the new or full Moon. See Slide 18 in

Heldmann, J.L. May 30, 2007. Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing Satellite
(LCROSS) Mission: Opportunities for Observations of the Impact Plumes from
Ground-based and Space-based Telescopes. (Slide presentation). Presentation
to American Astronomical Society, Honolulu, HI. url:
http://lcross.arc.nasa.gov/docs/LCROSS.AAS.ppt

- Kurt

FABULOUS!

Man if we could only put some mirrors on the impactors and direct some
sunlight glints toward us..

So then my Wish is that impact is as close to the boundary between zone 2
and 3.. Or 7 and 8..

But I had no idea of the projected size of the plume!

This will not be so hard.. And to think I was ready to forget attempting
this when I did the first test and the Moon was 80% lit...

Sweet!.. Thanks for the links!

Derek

[cano...@yahoo.com]

The projected size of the plume is overstated somewhat in NASA-LCROSS
and Northrup animations because they are artist's renderings.

The ejecta plume see in various NASA Ames slide presentations for the
purpose of their Current Best Estimate Impact Model (CBEIM) is 10 km
wide by 5 km tall. At the nominal lunar distance, that's about 5" x
2.5". This is the portion of the ejecta cloud that will contain most
of the visible light reflecting dust particles. But the modeling is
subject to uncertainty - it is possible the dust cloud will be
larger. As Jim's FAQ notes in his review of NASA-LCROSS slide
presentations, the model predicts a concentration of light at the
horizontal edges of the ejecta cloud. The cloud, when viewed close up
will not be a uniform panel reflector. This effect is best seen in
the NASA-Ames "First-Step" video, linked of the "Animations" page
here, at video minute 1:39 in clip from a NASA-Ames high-velocity gun
test.

For the purposes of viewing through an atmospheric seeing and light
diffraction limited amateur telescope from Earth, it is unlikely any
detail will be seen in the cloud. The horizontal edge brightening
seen in the NASA-Ames high-velocity gun test is sub-arcsec feature.
Most amateur imagers (particularly from North America where the Moon
will be at a low altitude when the actual impact happens) will at best
experience 1 arcsec seeing with a FWHM spread across two pixels. In
otherwords, an individual CCD detector well will pick up any of the
sub-arcsec detail described above as a flat one-pixel square. For
apertures of less than 10", the same principle applies except it is
caused by the diffraction limit of the Airy disk. For apertures
above 10" with Airy disks less than 1 arcsec, in theory, at moments of
calm air, some subarcsec detail might be seen.

In conclusion, although there are some non-uniform characteristics to
the dust ejecta cloud, if the cloud is as small as the NASA-LCROSS
modeling suggests, it will not be a factor for amateur Earth-based
imagers - your CCD chip pixel wells will "see" it as flat panel.
Now, if you were using something really big - like the professional's
Keck or NASA IRTF - that with adaptive optics and huge apertures that
can reach down to ridiculously small subarcsec diffraction limits -
then it would make a difference.

Finally, IMHO, there is uncertainty regarding the impact model.
Modeling the impact is difficult and based on assumptions about the
terrain that may be unknown. There are non-linear effects early in
the impact that can throw isolated chunks out to as much as 30km. If
you watch the NASA LCROSS First Step video, you will see one of those
early chunks exiting the frame to the upper left. Because of this
uncertainty, I would not assume that the conservative CBEIM model
what is going to happen. Sometimes you just have to run the
experiment to find out what the answer is.

But as amateurs and hobby science-buffs, we are used to setting up to
view or image astronomical events that may have uncertain
characteristics (that is a low significance level and large confidence
interval) or that may be inherently difficult to image properly. E.g.
- the Feb. 9 preumbral eclipse as a current example. For example,
although we know at lot more about the Moon's regolith than a comet,
the actual brightness of the Deep Impact experiment ejecta cloud was
about a 100 times the best pre-impact model prediction, according to
S&T January issue. Although its not a direct analogy, the Deep Impact
ejecta cloud illustrates that relying entirely on mathematical models,
although a useful guide, does not always work. It's an experiment.
The results are supposed to be uncertain or unknown until you do the
experiment.

That's part of the amateur astronomy game and part of the fun. If the
LCROSS impact was in an imaging category like taking the 10,000th good
Ha photo of the Rossetta nebulae, it probably would not be as
interesting.

The hoped for OH vapor cloud should be distinguished from the dust
ejecta cloud. The OH vapor curtain is shown in the slides as reaching
100km. But this will only be observable at frequencies that are
beyond the range of most amateur spectroscopy equipment and beyond the
response range of amateur CCD chips.

The link to the slide presentation is off the NASA-LCROSS Observing
Campaign site referenced in Jim's FAQ.

http://lcross.arc.nasa.gov/observation.htm

Clear Skies - Kurt

[Greg]

This might sound dumb, but could we wait till the moon is closer to us like what happen at the beginning of the year? If I recall the moon was 50,000 miles closer and 12% brighter. Greg --- On Thu, 2/5/09, cano...@yahoo.com <cano...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Derek C Breit]

* if the cloud is as small as the NASA-LCROSS modeling suggests, it will
not be a factor for amateur Earth-based imagers *

Sure it will!

The Smaller, and closer it remains to the bright limb, the harder it will
be to image at all...

5 arcsec at mag 6 is pretty easy though..

1 arcsec at mag 6 is HIGHLY dependant on phase and weather..

I am going to have to find my full moon graze video which beautifully shows
the issues that concern me..

Derek

[cano...@yahoo.com]

On Feb 5, 3:42 pm, Greg <hih...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This might sound dumb, but could we wait till the moon is closer to us like what happen at the beginning
> of the year? If I recall the moon was 50,000 miles closer and 12% brighter. Greg

Regretably, there are only two ends to a dog. The front - that's
where the professional experimental priorities of LRO and the LCROSS
team are - then there is the back end. That's closer to where we
amateurs who do this for hobby enjoyment are. -:) Seriously, there
are a lot of constaints and factors that go into the launch decision
that will probably always be beyond our amateur understanding.

Clear Skies - Kurt

P.S. - Personally, in light of the national budget and deficit, I'd
like to see them launch tomorrow morning. Once LRO and LCROSS are in
flight - it would be pretty hard to cancel the program.

[cano...@yahoo.com]

To correct:

> As Jim's FAQ notes in his review of NASA-LCROSS slide
> presentations, the model predicts a concentration of light at the
> horizontal edges of the ejecta cloud.  

Should read:

As Jim's FAQ notes in his review of NASA-LCROSS slide

presentations, the model predicts a concentration of reflected light
at the
angled sides of the trapezoidal ejecta cloud.

My bad. - Kurt

[cano...@yahoo.com]

On Feb 3, 10:16 pm, "Rick Baldridge" <rickbaldri...@comcast.net>
wrote:
<snip>

> According to LCROSS PI Anthony Colaprete, the FINAL targeting decision is
> made about 30 days prior to impact.  The actual launch time and date dicate

> most of the major decision points for the mission.- RickBaldridge

30 days before April 24, 2009 is during the 40th Lunar Planetary
Science Conference (March 23-27).

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2009/

Hopefully, there will be many new good things reported during this
year's conference about Kaguya, Chang’e-1, Chandrayaan, LRO and
LCROSS.

Clear Skies - Kurt

[Arnold Ashcraft]

Well, it's fun to see if the tail can wag the dog!

Clif

[cano...@yahoo.com]

On Feb 5, 3:49 pm, "Derek C Breit" <breit_id...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>

>  I am going to have to find my full moon graze video which beautifully shows

> the issues that concern me.. - Derek

That's the kind of practical experience that you occultation and graze
guys can bring to the table and transmit to other intermediate and
advanced amateurs, and later to the general public.

Fortunately, we have all started thinking about this early enough
before the impact, that there are enough lunar libration cycles
between now and July to play around with exposure calibration and get
things figured out.

Personally, I'm planning in terms of a 10 or 11 arcsec square at mag
7. If it happens it happens, if it doesn't, it doesn't.

In the meantime, between now and July I intend to enjoy myself
learning new techniques from advanced amateurs such as yourself.

Clear Skies - Kurt

[Derek C Breit]

I have two JPGs that could be posted..

Both are of the same graze that went thru my front yard, which is rather
rare..

One is with my big scope, a 12" LX200.. Wifey ran the scope (her first time)
and has too much bright moon in the FOV..

The other image is what I acquired a couple kms away with a hand guided 90
mm refractor..

Both images are 10 frame stacks..

They show a mag 7.5 (7.3r) star 15 degrees from the Southern cusp of a 68 %
lit moon..

I will try attaching them..

Derek

Graze Details...

Grazing Occultation of 146201 F0 Magnitude 7.5 [Red = 7.3] v
Date: 2008 Nov 08 1h 32m, to 2008 Nov 08 1h 47m

146201 = LO Aqr, 7.44 to 7.59Hp, Type IB

Librations Long -7.08 Lat -1.96
P +164.47 D -3.56
Illumination of moon 68%+
Elongation of Moon 112
Vertical Profile Scale 2.97 km/arcsec at mean distance of moon

[cano...@yahoo.com]

I have updated the "Atlas" grid for all applicable images through Feb.
4 shown on Jim's "Index to Images". The "Atlas" contains a subset of
images received here and annotated in Jim's Index. The Atlas gives a
graphical presentation of images by illumination (estimated mean
terminator position at equator) and libration (positive for north
polar target regions and negative for south polar target regions)
taken to date where the LCROSS target zones are on the Earthside of
the apparent limb.

Click on http://groups.google.com/group/lcross_observation/web/atlas-of-polar-images-above-lat-80
- or copy & paste it into your browser's address bar if that doesn't
work.

[cano...@yahoo.com]

If have updated the "Atlas" grid highlighting the phase angles that
correspond to likely LCROSS impact parameters. The NASA LCROSS Image
Specifications Press Release states that "[t]he LCROSS mission plans
to impact the moon when the lunar phase is approximately between 76
degrees and 150 degrees and between 210 and 284 degrees."

The purpose of highlighting the grid is to aid imagers in focusing
their efforts on capturing images within those LCROSS mission
parameters. Please note that their is a considerable 3rd Qtr frame
that would require some early morning imaging to capture. See the
"Librations in Latitude List" page for imaging opportunitites.

[cano...@yahoo.com]

The "About" section of this page was substantially reorganized to
improve clarity.

[cano...@yahoo.com]

On Feb. 3, I suggested that if a more detail indexing table of images
was needed, it might be better to index images using the Google "Docs"
utility that an online shareable spreadsheet. I have put together a
table schema (a list of fields) and a public shared spreadsheet for
that purpose. Anyone can view the spreadsheet but you will need a
(free) google account to edit it.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pNGQ8owEHmzwETpW0MkTMDw

The spreadsheet allows for entering detailed information in a portrait
layout for up to 8 images on a worksheet page by multiple users
dispersed on the internet. Fieldnames are built around, whereever
possible, FITS standard or common keywords. Portrait layout was
adopted due to the inherent limitations of the Google Docs spreadsheet
interface (the number of table rows and columns is severly restricted
as compared to desktop Excel). For more than 8 images, just copy the
worksheet "ImageDataPage1".

The sheet was designed with the limitations of the Google Docs
interface in mind. It would be better to have a horizontal layout so
that the image data could be sorted so similar images in libration in
latitude and illuminated fraction could be found. Google Docs
spreadsheets are limited to columns A through X, so a horizontal
layout was not possible.

The spreadsheet can be downloaded as an Excel spreadsheet at any
time. Once in Excel it is possible to use Copy and Paste with the
"Transpose" option to convert the field layout from portrait to
landscape for more sorting and data filtering within Excel.

I put this spreadsheet and table schema (a list of fieldnames)
together out of personal interest and to have a similar spreadsheet
for general personal use.

At present, there are not enough images received to warrant its use,
but this should change at the winter overcast weather passes and
things warm up during the spring. The option for indexing using a
more detailed spreadsheet is there if needed.

Comments or revisions are welcome.

Clear Skies - Kurt

On Feb 3, 2:25 pm, "canopu...@yahoo.com" <canopu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 2, 4:59 pm, Jim Mosher <jimmos...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Kurt,
> > This is a worthwhile effort, but I'm not sure there is any universally
> > useful way to organize photos of the Moon's poles.
> While it is desirable to collect more detailed information on data for
> each image, including expanding data recorded in your "Index to
> Images" table, there are limits to what can be done within the Google
> Groups "Pages" interface and its HTML table creation feature. <snip>
> In short, the Google Groups "Pages" interface does not have the
> features to support such detailed data collection. <snip>
> The Google "Docs" utility contains an online shareable spreadsheet
> feature. That way you can invite multiple people to assist you in
> entering information about the images into a common online
> spreadsheet.
>
> Go to http://www.google.com/intl/en/options/ and see the "Docs"
> option <snip> - Kurt

[Jim Mosher]

Kurt,

This is an interesting concept, but I, at least, am unable to edit
this particular shared document even after signing in.

Based on your earlier suggestion, I did try creating a simple shared
spreadsheet listing the lunar images in the Files area in
chronological order. It is at:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p3d-0_fN_bYr0hngzx3kCeg&hl=en

I tried to set up the permissions so that anyone in the world can view
it; and anyone on the LCROSS mailing list can edit it after signing
in. As with your spreadsheet I have no way to test if the latter is
true or not.

I am a bit leery about making changes to these Google Docs, due, I am
sure to my unfamiliarity with the system. I found a "Save and Close"
button, but due to the "Auto-save" feature I saw running in the
background, the slightest change I made seemed to become permanent.
For example, if I added or deleted something or sorted the data in the
spreadsheet in a certain way, that was the spreadsheet I found on
returning to Google Docs, and there was no obvious way to revert to
the earlier version. If the "auto-save" feature is on by default, I
fear others will also make unintended permanent changes to the shared
database.

-- Jim

> > Go tohttp://www.google.com/intl/en/options/and see the "Docs"
> > option  <snip> - Kurt- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[cano...@yahoo.com]

On Feb 11, 7:32 pm, Jim Mosher <jimmos...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kurt,

> This is an interesting concept, but I, at least, am unable to edit
> this particular shared document even after signing in.

I have misread the instructions. Google Docs requires an email
invitation to allow specific individuals to edit a document. I have
sent you the required invitation.

<snip> As with your spreadsheet I have no way to test if the latter is
> true or not.

I am unable to edit it, but under the "Share" menu, there is an option
to "Invite" an email address that activates permissions to edit.

> I am a bit leery about making changes to these Google Docs, due, I am
> sure to my unfamiliarity with the system.  I found a "Save and Close"
> button, but due to the "Auto-save" feature I saw running in the
> background, the slightest change I made seemed to become permanent.
> For example, if I added or deleted something or sorted the data in the
> spreadsheet in a certain way, that was the spreadsheet I found on
> returning to Google Docs, and there was no obvious way to revert to
> the earlier version.

On the edit menu, there is an Undo button for immediate errors. You
can offline store a local Excel copy with another menu option. There
appears to be no ability for tracing as in Excel, where one can flip
back through prior versions.

- Clear skies, Kurt