Your mental life: How has it changed with DNB?
Mike L.
Any changes in the workplace, studies, overall mental abilities? How
so? What can qualify or rather, quantifiy these changes?
Gwern Branwen
Hash: SHA512
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:45 PM, Mike L. wrote:
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>
> What differences have you seen in your daily life with DNB?
A question much like this has been asked before; I've compiled many of
the responses in my FAQ:
http://community.haskell.org/~gwern/wiki/N-back FAQ.page (scroll down
to '### Benefits'). I'll paste them here for your convenience anyway:
-----------------
[Jack Nguyen asked](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/14c843162167c376)
what benefits people saw from N-back use. The responses (and quotes
from other threads) are, of course, entirely anecdotal, so take them
as you will.
- Ashirgo: "To be honest, I do not feel any obvious difference. There
are moments in which I perceive a significant improvement, though, as
well as particulars task which are much easier now."<br> "I have also
experienced better dream recalling, with all these reveries and other
hallucinations included ;) I am more happier now than ever. I did
doubt it would be ever possible! I am also more prone to get
excited...Now people in my motherland are just boring to listen to.
They speak too slow and seem as though it took them pains to express
anything. I did not notice that after I had done my first ninety days
of n-back, but now (after 2.5 months) it is just
conspicuous."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/1c44c7570cdb4a35)
- chinmi04: "For me, it definitely has taught me how to focus. But I'm
still not sure whether that has something to do with merely coming to
realize the importance of focusing, or whether the program has really
physically rewired my brain to focus better. In any case, it appears
that I'm now faster at mental reasoning, creative thinking and
speaking fluency. But again, the effects are not so clear as to
completely eliminate any doubt regarding the connection with the
n-back program."<br> "I have been maintaining a personal blog on
wordpress since 3 years ago. Average post per month : a little over 1.
Then I started with dual-n-back at the end of november... number of
posts in January : 7! (none are about n-back)"
- Confuzedd: "[asked if felt 'sharper']: Nothing."
- ArseneLupin: "Not much, yet, but I feel that I can easier get a hold
of a discussion. The feeling is the same as when I am mastering a
certain n-back in the game (a bit hard to explain)."
- John: "I feel much sharper since I started in the middle of last
November...My productivity is much higher these days. I'm a
non-fiction writer, so having a higher working memory and fluid
intelligence directly leads to better (and faster) performance. It's
amazing to see the stuff I produce today and compare it to before I
began the Dual N-Back training. Also, I am simultaneously learning
German, French and Spanish, and I'm certain this is helping me learn
those languages faster."
- Ginkgo: "DN-Back has probably helped me with one of my hobbies."
- BamaDoc: "I note a subjective difference in recall. There might be
some increase in attention, but I certainly do notice a difference in
recall. It might be placebo, but I am convinced enough that I
continue to find time to use the
program."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/f11ff07eb9eba1a4)
- karnautrahl: "Since November however, I began to read the
Neuroscience book in more detail. I mentioned late December I think
that I was finding I could understand more stuff. I've spent about
£1000 on books since November. The large majority are books on the
brain, source from Amazon reviews, reading lists and out of my own
pirate list when I liked a book. I stopped Dual n Back in December,
early. The benefits have stayed however. I tested this the other day,
very easily going to 3 n back, which was mostly where I was before. I
guess in a way I'm trying to say that for me, whilst the focus may
have been on G increase and IQ etc, now the focus is on--what's
*really* happened and what can I do with it :). What I can do with it
is choose to concentrate long enough to genuinely understand fairly
technical in depth chapters on subjects often new to
me."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/7a674cf0305a6f5c)<br>
"After not using this since around December last year, I still
attribute my vastly improved concentration to DNB training...Some are
degree textbooks or for med school students. I'm having no real
trouble working through any of these....This isn't a case of how smart
I became because I definitely have no comparison for this as I'm not
on a course nor am I eligible for any degree placements at this time.
What it is though, is my own personal testimony as to how much greater
concentration I have than I ever
had."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/a9e8c326d95f0da6)
Karnautrahl writes more on his self-improvements in his thread
["Second lot of training started-and long term experience overall.
"](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/9c233ef7c68b16dc)
- negatron: "One perhaps coincidental thing I noticed is that dream
recollection went up substantially. A good while after I stopped I
developed an odd curiosity for what I previously considered unpleasant
material, such as advanced mathematics. Never imagined I'd consider
the thought of advanced calculus exciting. I began reading up on such
subjects far more frequently than I used to. This was well after I've
long forgotten about dual n-back so I find it hard to attribute it to
a placebo effect, believing that I'm more adapted to this material. On
the other hand I don't recall reading anything about motivational
benefits to dual n-back training so I still consider this conjecture
and perhaps an eventful coincidence just the
same."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/7a674cf0305a6f5c)
- Chris: "One thing I have noticed is the recollection of a number of
very unpleasant images in dreams. Specifically, images of bodily
disease, mutilation, injury and post-mortem decomposition. I find it
difficult to believe it's just a coincidence, because I can't remember
when I last had such a dream, and I've had maybe half a dozen since I
started dual n-back. But perhaps it's simply owing to better
recall."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/7a674cf0305a6f5c)
- sutur: "i didn't really notice any concrete changes in my thinking
process, which probably, if existent, are rather hard to detect
reliably anyway. one thing i did notice however is an increased sense
of calmness. i used to move my legs around an awful lot while sitting
which i now don't feel the urge to anymore. but of course this could
be placebo or something else entirely. i also seem to be able to read
text (in books or on screen) more fluently now with less danger of
distraction. however, personally i am quite skeptic when people
describe the changes they notice. changes in cognitive capacity are
probably quite subtle, build up slowly and are hard to notice through
introspection."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/1c44c7570cdb4a35)
- astriaos: "By 'robust', I mean practically everything I do is
qualitatively different from how I did things 30 days previous to the
dual n-back training. For instance, in physics class I went from
vaguely understanding most of the concepts covered in class to a
mastery thorough enough that now my questions usually transcend the
scope of the in-class and textbook material, routinely stupefying my
physics teacher into longer-than-average pauses. It's the same
experience for all of my classes. Somehow, I've learned more-than-I
usually learn of physics/government/ etc. (all of my classes, and any
topic in general) information from sources outside of class, and
without what I consider significant effort. I feel like my learning
speed has gone up by some factor greater than 1; I can follow longer
arguments with greater precision; my vocabulary has improved; I can
pay attention longer; my problem solving skills are significantly
better... Really, it's amazing how much cognition depends on
attention!"[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/1c44c7570cdb4a35)
- flashquartermaster reports N-back cured his [chronic fatigue
syndrome](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/84d227fee313b60a)?
- UOChris1: "Harry Kahne was said to have developed the ability to
perform several tasks at one time involving no less the 16 different
areas of the brain....Surprisingly, I am slowly developing the ability
simultaneously perform quad combination 3-back while reciting the
alphabet backwards. The practice is very difficult and requires loads
of concentration but I am experiencing perceivable gains in clarity of
thought from one day of practice to the next whereas my gains from
brainworkshop alone were not perceivable on a daily
basis."[](http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/18eeddd23451f1f0)
-----------------
> Any changes in the workplace, studies, overall mental abilities? How
> so? What can qualify or rather, quantifiy these changes?
Large-scale studies which haven't been done? Those are hard things to measure.
--
gwern
Mike L.
asking for anecdotal evidence.
How about you, gwern? Notice anything different in your life?
On Apr 25, 9:27 pm, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
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>
>
> > What differences have you seen in your daily life with DNB?
>
> A question much like this has been asked before; I've compiled many of
>
> -----------------
> from other threads) are, of course, entirely anecdotal, so take them
> as you will.
>
> - Ashirgo: "To be honest, I do not feel any obvious difference. There
> are moments in which I perceive a significant improvement, though, as
> well as particulars task which are much easier now."<br> "I have also
> experienced better dream recalling, with all these reveries and other
> hallucinations included ;) I am more happier now than ever. I did
> doubt it would be ever possible! I am also more prone to get
> excited...Now people in my motherland are just boring to listen to.
> They speak too slow and seem as though it took them pains to express
> anything. I did not notice that after I had done my first ninety days
> of n-back, but now (after 2.5 months) it is just
> Neuroscience book in more detail. I mentioned late December I think
> that I was finding I could understand more stuff. I've spent about
> £1000 on books since November. The large majority are books on the
> brain, source from Amazon reviews, reading lists and out of my own
> pirate list when I liked a book. I stopped Dual n Back in December,
> early. The benefits have stayed however. I tested this the other day,
> very easily going to 3 n back, which was mostly where I was before. I
> guess in a way I'm trying to say that for me, whilst the focus may
> have been on G increase and IQ etc, now the focus is on--what's
> *really* happened and what can I do with it :). What I can do with it
> is choose to concentrate long enough to genuinely understand fairly
> technical in depth chapters on subjects often new to
> attribute my vastly improved concentration to DNB training...Some are
> degree textbooks or for med school students. I'm having no real
> trouble working through any of these....This isn't a case of how smart
> I became because I definitely have no comparison for this as I'm not
> on a course nor am I eligible for any degree placements at this time.
> What it is though, is my own personal testimony as to how much greater
> concentration I have than I ever
> ["Second lot of training started-and long term experience overall.
> recollection went up substantially. A good while after I stopped I
> developed an odd curiosity for what I previously considered unpleasant
> material, such as advanced mathematics. Never imagined I'd consider
> the thought of advanced calculus exciting. I began reading up on such
> subjects far more frequently than I used to. This was well after I've
> long forgotten about dual n-back so I find it hard to attribute it to
> a placebo effect, believing that I'm more adapted to this material. On
> the other hand I don't recall reading anything about motivational
> benefits to dual n-back training so I still consider this conjecture
> and perhaps an eventful coincidence just the
> very unpleasant images in dreams. Specifically, images of bodily
> disease, mutilation, injury and post-mortem decomposition. I find it
> difficult to believe it's just a coincidence, because I can't remember
> when I last had such a dream, and I've had maybe half a dozen since I
> started dual n-back. But perhaps it's simply owing to better
> process, which probably, if existent, are rather hard to detect
> reliably anyway. one thing i did notice however is an increased sense
> of calmness. i used to move my legs around an awful lot while sitting
> which i now don't feel the urge to anymore. but of course this could
> be placebo or something else entirely. i also seem to be able to read
> text (in books or on screen) more fluently now with less danger of
> distraction. however, personally i am quite skeptic when people
> describe the changes they notice. changes in cognitive capacity are
> probably quite subtle, build up slowly and are hard to notice through
> qualitatively different from how I did things 30 days previous to the
> dual n-back training. For instance, in physics class I went from
> vaguely understanding most of the concepts covered in class to a
> mastery thorough enough that now my questions usually transcend the
> scope of the in-class and textbook material, routinely stupefying my
> physics teacher into longer-than-average pauses. It's the same
> experience for all of my classes. Somehow, I've learned more-than-I
> usually learn of physics/government/ etc. (all of my classes, and any
> topic in general) information from sources outside of class, and
> without what I consider significant effort. I feel like my learning
> speed has gone up by some factor greater than 1; I can follow longer
> arguments with greater precision; my vocabulary has improved; I can
> pay attention longer; my problem solving skills are significantly
> better... Really, it's amazing how much cognition depends on
> perform several tasks at one time involving no less the 16 different
> areas of the brain....Surprisingly, I am slowly developing the ability
> simultaneously perform quad combination 3-back while reciting the
> alphabet backwards. The practice is very difficult and requires loads
> of concentration but I am experiencing perceivable gains in clarity of
> thought from one day of practice to the next whereas my gains from
> brainworkshop alone were not perceivable on a daily
Gwern Branwen
Hash: SHA512
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 9:52 PM, Mike L. wrote:
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>
> Hey, thanks for taking your time to respond. I suppose i was rather
> asking for anecdotal evidence.
>
> How about you, gwern? Notice anything different in your life?
Me? No, not really. My practice is unfortunately irregular, and I've
only gone from 2-back to barely 3-back; so any benefit would be
correspondingly small.
--
gwern
Mike L.
so i i guess what you're saying is that you dont really play all that
much?
Why then such an avid poster on this group?
On Apr 25, 9:59 pm, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
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> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 9:52 PM, Mike L. wrote:
>
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Gwern Branwen
Hash: SHA512
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 10:05 PM, Mike L. wrote:
> Why then such an avid poster on this group?
- - it's a very interesting & active area of research
- - it's potentially quite valuable to me (right up there with learning
to read & type fast, using a spaced repetition flashcard program,
meditation, using melatonin, etc.)
- - there's something I can do to help out: it's obvious to me that
there's a need for a 'systematizer', someone who brings together the
extant knowledge in one place. I believe the number of times I've used
even my haphazard & in-complete FAQ demonstrate this need.
- - while I don't play a whole lot, that's just from lack of time and
mental energy. I certainly do indeed to play more than I currently do!
- --
gwern
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Dennis Peterson
kahreez...@hotmail.com
Unfortunately for me, today I plan to take it at 6:00 p.m. and go to
sleep at 7:00 p.m. I woke up at 7:14 p.m. yesterday. I've tried
several attempts of "cycles" to reset my sleep schedule but I get
mentally destroyed. God damn, I can't stay consistent with my
academic goals this way.
Gwern Branwen
Hash: SHA512
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 12:55 PM, wrote:
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See http://community.haskell.org/~gwern/wiki/Melatonin.page
Long story short: melatonin is safe, easy, dirt-cheap, and saves you
an hour or half-hour of sleep (and for college students, it's a great
way to enforce a bedtime). All considered, it's an incredible deal; I
used to be baffled why more people didn't use melatonin until I
realized they simply didn't know.
--
gwern
kahreez...@hotmail.com
to see if I can find anything that mentions of "1400 women in Norway
study ingest 75 mg of melatonin for 4 years with no ill effect" which
was mentioned in some website I stumbled on a few mins ago.
Iron
certain percentage of male users get messed up spermies... When I
heard that I decided it wasn't worth the risk for me. The study I
remember said that some of the men had their sperm return to normal,
but some stayed messed up even after ending their use.
Matthew Chadwell
Gwern Branwen
Hash: SHA512
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Matthew Chadwell wrote:
> I just did a quick search on PubMed about melatonin. One review article
> states, "no long-term safety data exist..." for melatonin. ("Melatonin as a
> chronobiotic" Sleep medicine reviews. Feb 2005 ; 9(1): 25-39.)
Well, besides its natural secretion and intrinsic use in the human
sleep cycle, I guess there is no *real* long-term safety data.
But seriously, there's plenty of short-term safety indications. The
main risk seems to be that the manufacturer might've screwed up, but I
don't see any reason to think melatonin makers are any more dangerous
than the peanut-butter makers*.
* too soon for that joke?
- --
gwern
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Iron
So because men have some estrogen naturally, its safe to supplement
with an external source? You cannot extrapolate safety based on
natural existence in the human body. Levels of the chemicals are very
important.
Gwern Branwen
Hash: SHA512
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Iron wrote:
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Do you have any net conclusion to this, or is this basically "Woo-Woo
one tiny study found some oddities with sperm and 'the dose makes the
poison'! Be afraid!"
If I wanted to argue this sort of thing, I could probably dredge up a
dozen effects from
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Melatonin#Current_and_potential_medical_indications
(melatonin fights cancer! it fights obesity! it helps ADHD
sufferers!); but what good would that be? The net from decades of
studies is that melatonin is safe, very good at helping sleep; we use
it in amounts similar to naturally; we probably don't secret as much
as we should due to modern illumination; and this is all as we would
expect when we considered the evolutionary conditions for humanity and
melatonin's crucial role in sleep.
--
gwern
Iron
logic that because something is "excreted naturally" it is safe to
supplement with. I believe my previous example is adequate at
showcasing this.
And yes, the study was small, but ultimately the choice to supplement
is a matter of risk management. I want a family and children in 10 to
15 years, and risking long-term reproductive damage through
unnecessary supplementation is simply not a choice I will ever be
making. Once I've had children then I will reexamine supplementation
with melatonin because, as you've said, it has many benefits.
I don't know why this seems to be such an emotional topic for you, but
I don't appreciate being mocked and having words put in my mouth. I
don't see how providing an interesting study that some may be
interested in and saying that dosing is important warranted such a
response.
Mike L.
how the hell did this topic all-of-a-sudden become a melatonin one?
i think, if my memory serves me well, the original topic was that of
the benefits of DNB as expressed through anecdote.
lol
interesting stuff though, now that i think about it...
I might need it... O_o
Pheonoxia
back. I got to 3-back quickly and now I'm at 6-back and am
consistently between 50 and 80% accurate. In the early stages, my
visual accuracy was way better than my auditory accuracy, but now it's
practically reversed. All that said, I have NOT noticed any
differences in my mental capacity, intelligence, daily life, or even
ability to remember things that just happened. I still sometimes
forget people's names right after they tell me them. I'm going to keep
training though, because just because I haven't consciously noticed
these things, I have faith in scientific studies, so with enough
training hopefully I'll yield some positive benefits.
Off-Topic: Allow me to reconcile you two, Gwen and Iron. MIT says that
commercially available melatonin supplements contain 10x the needed
amount of melatonin to be an effective sleep aid. Anything more than
0.3 mg is ineffective, whereas your typical pill contains 3 mg. Brain
receptors eventually become unresponsive at high dosages anyways.
Granted, this study was conducted in 2005 and dosages may have changed
in light of recent evidence. Have they, Gwen?
http://www.sleepdex.org/mit-melatonin.htm
Iron, the study you posted from the Journal of Andrology tested men
taking 3 mg, 10x the needed amount for melatonin to work as a sleep
aid. Will it really hurt seamen and sperm production if you take 10%
of what they study tested? Maybe or maybe not. I know drinking 10
beers per day results in irreversible brain damage, but one beer per
day doesn't, not even 10% as much. But this is the male reproductive
system we're talking about, not the brain, so that comparison might
not be appropriate.
Mike L.
how long have you've been training with dnb?
You know something i find intruiging, however:
The fact that ashirgo, an avid poster on here, as i remember reading
clearly mentionted in january (after 90 days of training) having
noticed very little improvement only to write 2.5 months later that
they felt significantly smarter...
interesting, i think..
maybe the brain has a belated way of manifesting these improvements
and it just arises varyingly for different people...who knows...
Either way though, i too have faith in scientific studies, especially
ones as credible the Jaeggi one...hopefully with time we'll see some
more studies (along with those which have already been made and
published) which can solidify to a certain extent these findings...
gluck mate ;-)
On Apr 27, 1:36 am, Pheonoxia <b...@brockman.info> wrote:
> On-Topic: I started a 2-back and have never been knocked down to 1-
> back. I got to 3-back quickly and now I'm at 6-back and am
> consistently between 50 and 80% accurate. In the early stages, my
> visual accuracy was way better than my auditory accuracy, but now it's
> practically reversed. All that said, I have NOT noticed any
> differences in my mental capacity, intelligence, daily life, or even
> ability to remember things that just happened. I still sometimes
> forget people's names right after they tell me them. I'm going to keep
> training though, because just because I haven't consciously noticed
> these things, I have faith in scientific studies, so with enough
> training hopefully I'll yield some positive benefits.
>
> Off-Topic: Allow me to reconcile you two, Gwen and Iron. MIT says that
> commercially available melatonin supplements contain 10x the needed
> amount of melatonin to be an effective sleep aid. Anything more than
> 0.3 mg is ineffective, whereas your typical pill contains 3 mg. Brain
> receptors eventually become unresponsive at high dosages anyways.
> Granted, this study was conducted in 2005 and dosages may have changed
Mike L.
the things we learn and how efficiently, or rather, how well we learn
them or remember things are highly selective...
That is to say, we learn more prominently those things which we have a
genuine propensity to learn. This characteristic, on top of itself, it
should be noted, is found more prevalently in people with a higher
"intelligence" -to use an ambiguous term-
who knows though...heh
> back. I got to 3-back quickly and now I'm at 6-back and am
> consistently between 50 and 80% accurate. In the early stages, my
> visual accuracy was way better than my auditory accuracy, but now it's
> practically reversed. All that said, I have NOT noticed any
> differences in my mental capacity, intelligence, daily life, or even
> ability to remember things that just happened. I still sometimes
> forget people's names right after they tell me them. I'm going to keep
> training though, because just because I haven't consciously noticed
> these things, I have faith in scientific studies, so with enough
> training hopefully I'll yield some positive benefits.
>
> Off-Topic: Allow me to reconcile you two, Gwen and Iron. MIT says that
> commercially available melatonin supplements contain 10x the needed
> amount of melatonin to be an effective sleep aid. Anything more than
> 0.3 mg is ineffective, whereas your typical pill contains 3 mg. Brain
> receptors eventually become unresponsive at high dosages anyways.
> Granted, this study was conducted in 2005 and dosages may have changed
Ashirgo
mood, in coincidence with the mere fact that the winter days have
passed and now there is a bright and sunny Spring in my country:)
Mike L.
Looking back though, in retrospect, could you now say that such a
change in opinion is with good reason?
Paul
than the liquid or instant tablets.
On 27-Apr-09, at 4:54 PM, kahreez...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Off-Topic? Kinda. But since sleep is important for intelligence
> (memory consolidation for learning), why not? ;)
> On Apr 27, 1:36 am, Pheonoxia <b...@brockman.info> wrote:
>
>> Iron, the study you posted from the Journal of Andrology tested men
>> taking 3 mg, 10x the needed amount for melatonin to work as a sleep
>> aid.
>
> bottle says take the ENTIRE dropper (1mg) but I take a couple of
> drops; should be less than 750 mcg. The first time I took only 2
> drops (about <300 mcg) I slept for 9 hours which felt like a 15
> minute nap, it went by that quickly. The following couple of days, I
> took only 2 drops but my sleep was borked once again (normally is).
> So I tried increasing to a couple of more drops but it didn't really
> do anything again. I actually fell asleep but it just no longer kept
> me asleep like the first encounter (9 hours sleep). But here is what
> concerns me. I don't remember dreaming that first night, which I
> think is because I basically forced my body to sleep at the wrong time
> of the day. In other words, it was "fake" sleep. I went back to bed
> 3 hours later for a couple of hours after waking.
>
> Taking a break for several days from melatonin, and being up, yet
> again, for about 24 hours trying to reset my ciradian rhythm,
> miraculously I slept again like a baby! 10 hours, but I felt the same
> "fake sleep" during the day! Luckily I was in school to prevent me
> from dozing off. What will it be like tonight? I bet I'll only sleep
> for 3 hours and stay up for the rest of the night... we'll see.
> On Apr 26, 9:45 pm, "Mike L." <cool2bwi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> interesting stuff though, now that i think about it...
>>
>> I might need it... O_o
>
> research unless you don't take any medication and other nutritional
> supplements.
>
> Also may I ask, does anyone know the link for the formal paper or link
> regarding a Harvard research about our "secondary biological clock",
> which is food?
>
> http://parentingsquad.com/easy-way-to-reset-your-sleep-cycle-stop-eating
>
> "Simply stop eating during the 12-16 hour period before you want to be
> awake."
> >
Mike L.
On Apr 27, 8:01 pm, Paul <plh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if a time-release formulation of melatonin might be better
> than the liquid or instant tablets.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Gwern Branwen
> I never said that the dose makes it poison. I pointed out your flawed
> logic that because something is "excreted naturally" it is safe to
> supplement with. I believe my previous example is adequate at
> showcasing this.
If your argument is not 'the dose makes the poison', then I have no
idea what it is.
(Melatonin is unsafe, period? But then natural secretion would indeed
be a strong counterargument... Melatonin is safe? But then what are we
arguing over? Melatonin is safe, except when consumed as a supplement?
What, is there a chemical difference betwene 'natural' melatonin and
the form in supplements?)
> And yes, the study was small, but ultimately the choice to supplement
> is a matter of risk management. I want a family and children in 10 to
> 15 years, and risking long-term reproductive damage through
> unnecessary supplementation is simply not a choice I will ever be
> making. Once I've had children then I will reexamine supplementation
> with melatonin because, as you've said, it has many benefits.
The study is small, but there's no more risk-management here than
anywhere else. Everything you consume could potentially be a problem;
the question is whether something is more dangerous than that.
Let's look at the study again:
- 8 participants
This alone would render it useless for me; over on the Mnemosyne
mailing list, we've been discussing a study one member conducted for
his honor's thesis, and the study isn't too informative in large part
because it has merely 20 or so participants, and so the data is noisy
as hell - you have to remove 1 or 2 outliers and massage statistically
before one sees any effect like one would expect (higher mean for
spaced users compared to 'intuitive' scheduled users). If one removed
1 or 2 outliers here, there goes the entire study...
- " In 6 men, there was no change in semen quality or in serum and
seminal plasma hormone levels during the study period." "Sperm
morphology remained unaltered in all 8 men throughout the study."
So in 2/3 the group, nothing whatsoever happened. That is, the results
of 2 guys is the *sole* basis for this study. Man, 2 guys - maybe one
just was stressed at school and the other got kicked in the nuts
during a bar fight or something!
- "Six months after the cessation of melatonin, sperm concentration
and motility were normal in 1 man but remained abnormal in the other
one with a still elevated testosterone:E2 ratio."
And one recovered all on his own, if indeed melatonin was responsible.
It's nice that they verify p<0.05, but remember what this implies - ~5
studies out of 100 will be utterly bogus.
But seriously, 2 guys? When I consider my reservations, I find some of
the passages inadvertently funny:
"We also observed an increase in sperm concentration in 3 subjects
during melatonin administration. These counts were within the normal
range and were not associated with similar changes in sperm motility
or with hormone concentrations. Therefore, these subjects were not
regarded as melatonin responders. We attributed this isolated change
in sperm concentration to the well-known variations between samples
that exist in the same individual (World Health Organization, 1993)."
(This is particularly amusing for me since their suggested mechanism
is that melatonin is an aromatase-inhibitor; aromatase promotes
estrogens, so one would expect a greater testosterone level if this
mechanism is correct. That is, melatonin would make you more manly!)
Also worth noting is that the mechanisms are all short-term - binding
to the sperm, changing hormonal balance etc.
> I don't know why this seems to be such an emotional topic for you, but
> I don't appreciate being mocked and having words put in my mouth.
I'm being sarcastic here because I think this is a lousy study, which
you are misinterpreting, that your cost/benefit analysis is plain
wrong, and I'm shocked you're seriously planning your life on such
flimsy work.
(And as Pheonexia says, it's perfectly possible that this effect -
assuming it exists - is irrelevant at practical levels; I know I don't
take 3mg, but no more than 1.5)
--
gwern
Gwern Branwen
>
> I wonder if a time-release formulation of melatonin might be better
> than the liquid or instant tablets.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/438194.html seems to
be a good summary.
My general impression has always been that time-release is better, but
noticeably more expensive & somewhat harder to know when to take the
dose (with regular melatonin, you just take it 20-30 minutes before
bedtime, and you're done; but the correct time seems to vary from
time-release brand to brand).
--
gwern
Gwern Branwen
>
> Off-Topic? Kinda. But since sleep is important for intelligence
> (memory consolidation for learning), why not? ;)
Sleep is important not just for learning!
As I think I've mentioned earlier, one of the papers I uploaded was on
timing n-back sessions - before going to bed, and on getting up; they
found faster increases in n-back performance in the former group.
True? Dunno. (But I don't care whether I do it in the morning or
evening, so I've switched to the latter. Could use some help :))
--
gwern
Gwern Branwen
...
> Off-Topic: Allow me to reconcile you two, Gwen and Iron. MIT says that
> commercially available melatonin supplements contain 10x the needed
> amount of melatonin to be an effective sleep aid. Anything more than
> 0.3 mg is ineffective, whereas your typical pill contains 3 mg. Brain
> receptors eventually become unresponsive at high dosages anyways.
> Granted, this study was conducted in 2005 and dosages may have changed
> in light of recent evidence. Have they, Gwen?
> http://www.sleepdex.org/mit-melatonin.htm
I certainly agree that 3mg is too much; but I'm not certain that the
MIT study is correct. Speaking only from my own experience, I found
doses of 0.5-0.75mg to be only minimally effective, and 1-1.5mg worked
much better for me.
(That page says the metastudy found statistically significant effects;
perhaps it's just that I want a greater effect than 'promoting' sleep,
something more akin to 'out like a light', and have learned to dose
myself appropriately?)
--
gwern
Gwern Branwen
Hm. That's a little disappointing. Your 2 statements were some of the
most inspirational. Do you now think the entire positiveness of your
second statement is due just to Spring, and not to any effects from
N-back?
--
gwern
Ashirgo
various tasks with little effort and it takes me much less time in
comparison with others (especially when I know what to do:) ).
Nevertheless, the main problem for me is that I am also occupied with
few things that I suppose to be able to test my newly acquired
potential, therefore I cannot say that "changes" are explicit
everywhere.
On the other hand, I am starting to believe that any improvements
(that one can expect) so smoothly and swiftly become a natural part of
one's capabilities that it makes them hardly noticeable until some
tests/measures are taken.
Gwern Branwen
> Fortunately, I can attribute many changes to n-back, I can now handle
> various tasks with little effort and it takes me much less time in
> comparison with others (especially when I know what to do:) ).
> Nevertheless, the main problem for me is that I am also occupied with
> few things that I suppose to be able to test my newly acquired
> potential, therefore I cannot say that "changes" are explicit
> everywhere.
Hm. The other poster, what's-his-name the one obsessed with
neurobiology, reported with his abilities came insatiable curiosity.
FWIW, this is the Internet - it's not like there's any lack of
challenging material to tackle. There're tons of textbooks to work
through; this is particularly true of philosophy & computer science,
but the various open access and opencoursewares mean there's material
on everything you could wish to study. Do you just not want to? Is
this lack of motivation consistent with your before-n-back life?
> On the other hand, I am starting to believe that any improvements
> (that one can expect) so smoothly and swiftly become a natural part of
> one's capabilities that it makes them hardly noticeable until some
> tests/measures are taken.
Good points. I've added your quotes and Pheonexia to my FAQ's
testament list (I try to include even null or negative assessments
like Pheonexia; be dishonest to exclude them. If anyone has any I
missed, that'd be great.)
--
gwern
Ashirgo
>this lack of motivation consistent with your before-n-back life?
attend with equal attention, nevertheless I would not call them
"demanding" save for learning English.
Vlad
the faq is not working)
"For me, there are clear improvements - I find it "easier" to focus,
think, and memorize. For example, with my father I seldom won at
scrabble or chess. Now, after cca 2 months of dual-n back training
(fyi n=4...), I win like half games in scrabble, and am often
stalemating in chess! My non-intentional memory clearly improved too,
I'm now more able to recall conversations or texts which I didnt try
to remember. And <i>very</i> subjectively, I'm more creative"
now, I want to add that I agree with sutur - I had the same "leg
speediness" and it went away (even for the months without n-back
training). And, I definitely experience kind of "intelectual hunger",
I was not aware of that before. I returned to topics from math I did
not understood fully before some years, and started to learn about
history (i never really did that).
