Continuation of benefit, yet not used DNB for ages :)
567 views
Skip to first unread message
karnautrahl
Feb 12, 2009, 11:13:23 AM2/12/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Well guys,
I posted weeks back that I'd had things change for me since I started
dual n back last October.
After a month of using it, I got mentally "itchy" whilst reading
Cryptonicom, itchy to study stuff. This is after months of doing
NOTHING. Drinking, maybe exercise, boating but wasting time on the
whole. So I started a little math and at the start of November I
bought Mark Bear's Neuroscience book.
Now in the past, such "enthusiasms" do not go too deep, and are
shortlived. Also study sessions rarely went past 1/2 hour and were not
that good. Since November however, I began to read the Neuroscience
book in more detail. I mentioned late December I think that I was
finding I could understand more stuff.
I've spent about £1000 on books since November. The large majority are
books on the brain, source from Amazon reviews, reading lists and out
of my own pirate list when I liked a book. I stopped Dual n Back in
December, early. The benefits have stayed however. I tested this the
other day, very easily going to 3 n back, which was mostly where I was
before.
When I left school I had an average GCSE set (16 yr old I was) with
decent science grades so my interest was there at the time.
I'm planning to go to University after doing an Access course because
I think it's worth my getting a degree in this subject now. Especially
when my bedtime reading recently included chapter from Molecular
Neuropharmacology by Malenka...and that I could follow 60% of what I
was reading! :).
Morning and night I do at least an hour or 2 consistently now, with my
core books being Neuroscience by Bear, Biopsychology (a simpler core
text) by Whitten, Biochemistry by Stryer (I just got this...but I've
covered alpha helices/beta sheets-how and why they form etc),
Neurobiology of Memory by Rudy and a few others including a Netter's
Neuroanatomy.
This self teaching has been for the first time quite consistent and my
standards are becoming a lot higher :). For someone who is already at
university what I'm describing is probably far less than the effort
they routinely put in-I realise when I attend I'll have to triple the
reading time and add in a lot of journals, essays and similar. However
from the position I was in before Paul's program came along, I've made
progress that I'm really really pleased about.
I guess in a way I'm trying to say that for me, whilst the focus may
have been on G increase and IQ etc, now the focus is on--what's
*really* happened and what can I do with it :).
What I can do with it is choose to concentrate long enough to
genuinely understand fairly technical in depth chapters on subjects
often new to me. Calladine's understanding DNA is a book I have on my
Elibrary. Half an hour with that book and I had a clear picture of why
DNA coils in the way it does...this was weeks back before I started
work on doing basic chemistry again.
For me, the original effort, 20 minutes a day has made it possible to
do more with what I do have. I may certainly not test out as a top of
the degree class IQ, but what's there I can use far better :). That
will do.
Still weak on math..but I would be-I ain't trained in that yet.
I posted weeks back that I'd had things change for me since I started
dual n back last October.
After a month of using it, I got mentally "itchy" whilst reading
Cryptonicom, itchy to study stuff. This is after months of doing
NOTHING. Drinking, maybe exercise, boating but wasting time on the
whole. So I started a little math and at the start of November I
bought Mark Bear's Neuroscience book.
Now in the past, such "enthusiasms" do not go too deep, and are
shortlived. Also study sessions rarely went past 1/2 hour and were not
that good. Since November however, I began to read the Neuroscience
book in more detail. I mentioned late December I think that I was
finding I could understand more stuff.
I've spent about £1000 on books since November. The large majority are
books on the brain, source from Amazon reviews, reading lists and out
of my own pirate list when I liked a book. I stopped Dual n Back in
December, early. The benefits have stayed however. I tested this the
other day, very easily going to 3 n back, which was mostly where I was
before.
When I left school I had an average GCSE set (16 yr old I was) with
decent science grades so my interest was there at the time.
I'm planning to go to University after doing an Access course because
I think it's worth my getting a degree in this subject now. Especially
when my bedtime reading recently included chapter from Molecular
Neuropharmacology by Malenka...and that I could follow 60% of what I
was reading! :).
Morning and night I do at least an hour or 2 consistently now, with my
core books being Neuroscience by Bear, Biopsychology (a simpler core
text) by Whitten, Biochemistry by Stryer (I just got this...but I've
covered alpha helices/beta sheets-how and why they form etc),
Neurobiology of Memory by Rudy and a few others including a Netter's
Neuroanatomy.
This self teaching has been for the first time quite consistent and my
standards are becoming a lot higher :). For someone who is already at
university what I'm describing is probably far less than the effort
they routinely put in-I realise when I attend I'll have to triple the
reading time and add in a lot of journals, essays and similar. However
from the position I was in before Paul's program came along, I've made
progress that I'm really really pleased about.
I guess in a way I'm trying to say that for me, whilst the focus may
have been on G increase and IQ etc, now the focus is on--what's
*really* happened and what can I do with it :).
What I can do with it is choose to concentrate long enough to
genuinely understand fairly technical in depth chapters on subjects
often new to me. Calladine's understanding DNA is a book I have on my
Elibrary. Half an hour with that book and I had a clear picture of why
DNA coils in the way it does...this was weeks back before I started
work on doing basic chemistry again.
For me, the original effort, 20 minutes a day has made it possible to
do more with what I do have. I may certainly not test out as a top of
the degree class IQ, but what's there I can use far better :). That
will do.
Still weak on math..but I would be-I ain't trained in that yet.
negatron
Feb 12, 2009, 10:16:02 PM2/12/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I started n-back for a while in the summer and reached a fairly solid
6-back, then I stopped for many months due to a lack of perceived
benefit. One perhaps coincidental thing I noticed is that dream
recollection went up substantially.
A good while after I stopped I developed an odd curiosity for what I
previously considered unpleasant material, such as advanced
mathematics. Never imagined I'd consider the thought of advanced
calculus exciting. I began reading up on such subjects far more
frequently than I used to. This was well after I've long forgotten
about dual n-back so I find it hard to attribute it to a placebo
effect, believing that I'm more adapted to this material. On the other
hand I don't recall reading anything about motivational benefits to
dual n-back training so I still consider this conjecture and perhaps
an eventful coincidence just the same.
In any case I'm understanding the advanced materials I've taken a
shine to thoroughly and I've resumed n-back, now working at a strong 8-
back. I can't confidently attribute the changes to dual n-back.
Whatever it has given me, it has been accumulated over a large enough
time span to not notice any drastically apparent alterations to my
psyche.
6-back, then I stopped for many months due to a lack of perceived
benefit. One perhaps coincidental thing I noticed is that dream
recollection went up substantially.
A good while after I stopped I developed an odd curiosity for what I
previously considered unpleasant material, such as advanced
mathematics. Never imagined I'd consider the thought of advanced
calculus exciting. I began reading up on such subjects far more
frequently than I used to. This was well after I've long forgotten
about dual n-back so I find it hard to attribute it to a placebo
effect, believing that I'm more adapted to this material. On the other
hand I don't recall reading anything about motivational benefits to
dual n-back training so I still consider this conjecture and perhaps
an eventful coincidence just the same.
In any case I'm understanding the advanced materials I've taken a
shine to thoroughly and I've resumed n-back, now working at a strong 8-
back. I can't confidently attribute the changes to dual n-back.
Whatever it has given me, it has been accumulated over a large enough
time span to not notice any drastically apparent alterations to my
psyche.
Meishu
Feb 13, 2009, 12:12:34 AM2/13/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
May I play Devil's Advocate for the sake of discussion?
Long before you started with all these books, something caused you to
use n-back in the hope of improvement. Meaning you had a need and
motivation, at least to some degree, for personal development even
before n-back. Your current interest in studies might be a natural
progress of this urge.
Long before you started with all these books, something caused you to
use n-back in the hope of improvement. Meaning you had a need and
motivation, at least to some degree, for personal development even
before n-back. Your current interest in studies might be a natural
progress of this urge.
negatron
Feb 13, 2009, 12:41:48 AM2/13/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I find this probable, but on the other hand n-back isn't
intellectually difficult, anyone could show an interest and succeed. I
also recall recent reading that high working memory has anti-
depressant effects. I don't doubt the training has made an impact, I'm
merely unsure of it's direct extent.
intellectually difficult, anyone could show an interest and succeed. I
also recall recent reading that high working memory has anti-
depressant effects. I don't doubt the training has made an impact, I'm
merely unsure of it's direct extent.
karnautrahl
Feb 13, 2009, 3:55:22 AM2/13/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
All I can say is that its my anecdotal experience to date.
My prior interest was vague and unfocussed. Also motivation was
low :)
My prior interest was vague and unfocussed. Also motivation was
low :)
Chris
Feb 18, 2009, 7:02:47 PM2/18/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
On Feb 13, 3:16 am, negatron <lokieff...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One perhaps coincidental thing I noticed is thatdream recollection went up substantially.
unpleasant images in dreams. Specifically, images of bodily disease,
mutilation, injury and post-mortem decomposition. I find it difficult
to believe it's just a coincidence, because I can't remember when I
last had such a dream, and I've had maybe half a dozen since I started
dual n-back. But perhaps it's simply owing to better recall.
karnautrahl
Feb 19, 2009, 12:31:45 PM2/19/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
It's made a difference to consistency, commitment and ability to
process difficult text.
Now I get up most morning for at least 45 mins if not longer to review
the prior nights work. I'll pick some up during the day too then at
night about 2-3 hrs worth. This is after a full days' work at the pc
doing my day job.
Right now I'm systematically tackling biochemistry by Stryer et el
(hardback blue book), Organic Chemistry by Jonathon Claydon,
Neuroscience by Bear, Psychology by Richard Gross and I just finished
my first proper reading of Rudy's Neurobiology of memory and
learning :-). These are the ones I'm working through in a rather slow
thorough fashion, as if going for an exam. The reality is with no A
levels, I have to do an access to Science or A levels to go onto Uni,
so I'm building up a decent foundation in the meantime :).
Interestingly the books reinforce each other quite well. I think from
a standing start of nearly zero knowledge in November 2008, I'm making
decent progress overall. The fact that right now I can understand
dipoles, covalent/non covalent bonds and how they relate to protein
structure (primary/secondary/tertiary/quaternary) pleases me I have to
confess, it's like having new possessions-only better LOL. I also like
the fact that I can start to predict by the latin/greek used where a
structure might be/what it does. To build on that I got me a nice
little medical roots book today.
The thing is guys-for me this is something else. I've never had such a
length of time with consistent progressive study, that's quite self
reinforcing. Even when I'm tired and fedup I'm still sitting down to
complete that one last section/chapter or whatever. Instead of
quitting I sit up and sleep for a few moments, drink water and
continue.
So yeah, I'm thinking that it's not really placebo to be honest.
My previous enthusiasms were much shallower and stopped when it got
"hard" to go any further. Right now my only glaring gaping gap in
ability is maths-and that's a weakness I plan to tackle with a private
tutor before I hit college. All I need there is a very good teacher
and plenty of effort. I figure there'll be uni students that would do
a good job of teaching that for double what they get paid in part time
bar jobs-what do you reckon? :-).
My long term goal is to get a docterate in my early 40's and get into
research :).
process difficult text.
Now I get up most morning for at least 45 mins if not longer to review
the prior nights work. I'll pick some up during the day too then at
night about 2-3 hrs worth. This is after a full days' work at the pc
doing my day job.
Right now I'm systematically tackling biochemistry by Stryer et el
(hardback blue book), Organic Chemistry by Jonathon Claydon,
Neuroscience by Bear, Psychology by Richard Gross and I just finished
my first proper reading of Rudy's Neurobiology of memory and
learning :-). These are the ones I'm working through in a rather slow
thorough fashion, as if going for an exam. The reality is with no A
levels, I have to do an access to Science or A levels to go onto Uni,
so I'm building up a decent foundation in the meantime :).
Interestingly the books reinforce each other quite well. I think from
a standing start of nearly zero knowledge in November 2008, I'm making
decent progress overall. The fact that right now I can understand
dipoles, covalent/non covalent bonds and how they relate to protein
structure (primary/secondary/tertiary/quaternary) pleases me I have to
confess, it's like having new possessions-only better LOL. I also like
the fact that I can start to predict by the latin/greek used where a
structure might be/what it does. To build on that I got me a nice
little medical roots book today.
The thing is guys-for me this is something else. I've never had such a
length of time with consistent progressive study, that's quite self
reinforcing. Even when I'm tired and fedup I'm still sitting down to
complete that one last section/chapter or whatever. Instead of
quitting I sit up and sleep for a few moments, drink water and
continue.
So yeah, I'm thinking that it's not really placebo to be honest.
My previous enthusiasms were much shallower and stopped when it got
"hard" to go any further. Right now my only glaring gaping gap in
ability is maths-and that's a weakness I plan to tackle with a private
tutor before I hit college. All I need there is a very good teacher
and plenty of effort. I figure there'll be uni students that would do
a good job of teaching that for double what they get paid in part time
bar jobs-what do you reckon? :-).
My long term goal is to get a docterate in my early 40's and get into
research :).
Iron
Feb 19, 2009, 1:36:47 PM2/19/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I'm really hoping that these are results that we can all expect to see
after continued use of DNB. Its really exciting to see people who
have finished this process and have gotten seemingly amazing results.
For me it is very motivational to hear about stories like this. I
hope anyone else who has success stories shares them with the group.
Thanks a lot!
after continued use of DNB. Its really exciting to see people who
have finished this process and have gotten seemingly amazing results.
For me it is very motivational to hear about stories like this. I
hope anyone else who has success stories shares them with the group.
Thanks a lot!
Ron Williams
Feb 19, 2009, 4:43:56 PM2/19/09
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
Of course I'd like to believe the DNB is the cause of Karn's improvement, however it could easily be that he/she/it is a pretty smart guy who just needed to believe it was possible. I'm not saying that that's what happened (i.e. DNB made this improvement), but we have to be rational about this, right?
Anecdotal reasoning is why homeopathy is still taken seriously by anyone.
Anecdotal reasoning is why homeopathy is still taken seriously by anyone.
karnautrahl
Feb 20, 2009, 3:53:15 PM2/20/09
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Ron is right. Overstating cases based on anecdotal experience or
limited experimental datasets leads to "neuromyths" such as the
notorious 10% myth and the Mozart effect that apparently led to a
budget/policy influece in one state of the USA.
If the dual n back effect is given too much credit without proper
scientific evidence it could lead to similar "myths".
My experience IS anecdotal, and it's possible that belief had
something to do with it for sure. I don't go with the "smart" bit
personally but thats cos I still have a huge hole where math knowledge
needs to go for one. Plenty of rereading can make one appear quite
clever in a particular area for sure.
Whats needed is larger trials and more in depth research. Our own
stories I hope would serve to fuel the further experiments rather than
further neuromyths.
:-).
On Feb 19, 9:43 pm, Ron Williams <rhwil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course I'd like to believe the DNB is the cause of Karn's improvement,
> however it could easily be that he/she/it is a pretty smart guy who just
> needed to believe it was possible. I'm not saying that that's what happened
> (i.e. DNB made this improvement), but we have to be rational about this,
> right?
>
> Anecdotal reasoning is why homeopathy is still taken seriously by anyone.
>
limited experimental datasets leads to "neuromyths" such as the
notorious 10% myth and the Mozart effect that apparently led to a
budget/policy influece in one state of the USA.
If the dual n back effect is given too much credit without proper
scientific evidence it could lead to similar "myths".
My experience IS anecdotal, and it's possible that belief had
something to do with it for sure. I don't go with the "smart" bit
personally but thats cos I still have a huge hole where math knowledge
needs to go for one. Plenty of rereading can make one appear quite
clever in a particular area for sure.
Whats needed is larger trials and more in depth research. Our own
stories I hope would serve to fuel the further experiments rather than
further neuromyths.
:-).
On Feb 19, 9:43 pm, Ron Williams <rhwil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course I'd like to believe the DNB is the cause of Karn's improvement,
> however it could easily be that he/she/it is a pretty smart guy who just
> needed to believe it was possible. I'm not saying that that's what happened
> (i.e. DNB made this improvement), but we have to be rational about this,
> right?
>
> Anecdotal reasoning is why homeopathy is still taken seriously by anyone.
>
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages