JFK DEBATES (PART 12)
David Von Pein
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From February 2006, March
2006, June 2006, November 2006, and March 2007.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- {Lee Harvey} Oswald's ties with the
Soviet Union make me suspicious that they put him up to killing
Kennedy.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- And via such a plot, Oswald was just willing
to use his own rifle to murder the President, huh? And was willing to
leave that traceable weapon in the building after doing the deed?
Now, yes, I believe Oswald did do those two things -- but it ONLY
makes sense if he was acting alone, with nobody pulling his strings.
In the context of Oswald willingly going to the 6th Floor of the Texas
School Book Depository and murdering a U.S. President at the behest of
another party/entity/Government, there is no way he's going to use his
own gun in the crime.
In the "LN" scenario, however, Oswald merely used what was available
to him (which was his own traceable Mannlicher-Carcano rifle).
Via the "Soviet" scenario, you'd have to believe one of two things
occurred on 11/22/63:
1.) Oswald was dumber than the dumbest box of rocks (and willingly
stepped right on in to the Soviet Union's perfect "Patsy" plan).
-- Or: --
2.) In a Non-Patsy-Framing scenario, these crackerjack Soviet Union
behind-the-scenes assassination-planners were so impoverished and
destitute they just simply could not afford to furnish their assassin
(Oswald) with a weapon with which to shoot their U.S. adversary....and
forced Oswald, instead, to use his own 21-dollar and somewhat-shabby
bolt-action carbine to pull off the most important "hit" these Russian
bums will ever attempt in their rotten lives.
I ask -- Is either choice above within the realm of reasonable
probability?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/8845d85a86407d31
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- "The reason I knew that Oswald could not have done it, was
because I could not have done it," said former Marine sniper Craig
Roberts.
DVP -- Yeah, I love meaningless comments like that.
"Oswald couldn't do it because I couldn't."
-- or: --
"Oswald couldn't do it because he missed General Walker."
-- or: --
"Oswald couldn't do it because he was born on a Wednesday."
In other words: The conspiracy buffs choose to just ignore ALL THE
PHYSICAL EVIDENCE that leads back to one man (the man who "couldn't do
it").
I have my doubts that the New York Mets actually won the 1969 World
Series ... because they'd never won before. No way they won that
Series! Couldn't have happened! And Oswald couldn't have shot JFK
either. He'd never shot a President from 60 feet up before; so he
couldn't have done it in '63. Right?
In a word -- Horsefeathers!
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- {Tippit witnesses Virginia and Barbara Davis} did indeed call
the police first, after hearing gunfire.
DVP -- That idea stems from Virginia Davis' testimony, when she said
that a phone call to the police had already been made from her house
before the two Davis ladies saw Lee Harvey Oswald cutting across their
yard following the shooting of Officer Tippit.
Virginia seemed a bit confused as to the exact time when the police
were called from the Davis residence....but let's examine this thing
logically, step-by-step:
1.) Both Davis women heard gunshots from outside their home.
2.) A man whom both Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis later positively
identified as Lee Harvey Oswald was then seen (by both Davis women)
walking briskly through the Davis' yard as he dumped empty bullet
cartridges onto the property.
3.) The police were called from the Davis house at some point after
the women heard the gunshots.
Now, unless Oswald was crawling on his hands and knees and moving
slower than Grandma Moses on crutches, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY
(realistically) that the Davis women could have had time to call the
police PRIOR to their seeing Oswald cut across their lawn. No way.
There was simply not enough time available.
Given the fact that Oswald obviously didn't just stand around on 10th
Street for a few minutes picking lint out of his belly-button after
killing a policeman in front of multiple eyewitnesses, the phone call
to the police from the Davis abode must have occurred AFTER Oswald had
cut through the Davis' yard.
Of course, in reality, it doesn't make a solitary bit of difference
exactly when the police were phoned from the Davis residence, because
both women later IDed Oswald as the man they had seen unloading a gun
while cutting across their front and side yards on November 22, 1963.
CTers like to paint any slight inconsistency in witness testimony as
something "shady" or "conspiratorial"....even when they haven't a leg
to stand on when so doing. (Like in this totally-meaningless "When
Were The Police Called?" instance.)
Let me also add this.....
Based on each of the two Davis ladies' 11/22/63 affidavits, it's
crystal-clear that the police were called from the Davis apartment
house only AFTER the Davises had seen Oswald cut across their yard.
Let's have a look at the key portions of these two affidavits:
"I heard a shot and jumped up and heard another shot. I put on my
shoes and went to the door and I saw this man walking across my front
yard unloading a gun. A woman was standing across the street screaming
that 'he shot him, he killed him' and pointed towards a police
car. ... I ran back in the house and called the operator and reported
this to the police. ... The #2 man in a 4-man lineup was the same man
I saw in my yard, also the one that was unloading the gun." -- Signed,
Barbara Jeanette Davis; 11/22/63
~~~~~
"We heard a shot and then another shot and ran to the side door at
Patton Street. I saw the boy cutting across our yard and he was
unloading his gun. We walked outside and a woman was hollering 'he's
dead, he's dead, he's shot'. This woman told Jeanette {Barbara Davis}
to call the police; and she did. I saw the officer that had been shot
lying on Tenth Street after Jeanette had called the police. Jeanette
found {an} empty shell that the man had unloaded and gave it to the
police. ... The man that was unloading the gun was the same man I saw
tonight as number 2 man in a lineup." -- Signed, Mrs. Virginia Davis;
11/22/63
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bdavis.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/vdavis.htm
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0130a.htm
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0130b.htm
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0128b.htm
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- What about the other guys who brought their rifles to work?
DVP -- And just how many of those other boys brought their rifles to
work ON THE DAY OF THE ASSASSINATION, broken down into pieces, and
wrapped in brown paper?
And how many of those warehouse boys claimed their rifles were
"curtain rods"?
Was there any reason for Oswald to tell lies about the contents of his
package if he was merely bringing his gun to work for "show-and-tell"
purposes?
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- More witnesses said the shots came from the grassy knoll than
from the TSBD.
DVP -- Totally untrue. On a simple "Front vs. Rear" basis, there were
certainly more "Rear" witnesses than "Front" ones. With "Rear", of
course, including the Book Depository.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/shots4.jpg
And one major fact that CTers will never be able to fully (and
believably) reconcile is the incredibly-low percentage of witnesses
who said they heard gunshots from BOTH the front and the rear of the
President's limousine, which is almost a non-existent percentile of
earwitnesses (which is an incredible thing indeed, if we're to believe
Oliver Stone's or Bob Groden's widely-accepted nonsense purporting 3
or 4 separate gunmen spread out all through Dealey Plaza).
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/shots.htm
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- You are describing evidence against one of the shooters, which
was found in the only building that the police happened to search.
DVP -- Well, yeah, that's correct. (I think a "Duh!" might prove
useful here as well.)
I guess CTers think the police were supposed to start searching every
inch of the Courthouse, the Dal-Tex Building, and the Trade Mart too,
even though there wasn't a single logical reason to do so...right?
Nobody claimed to hear shots from any other locations other than the
TSBD or the Grassy Knoll area; and both were searched....with the only
evidence of a gunman turning up in the Depository Building.
As lawyer Vincent Bugliosi is wont to say -- "What were the police
supposed to do....PRETEND that evidence existed elsewhere other than
where they found it and start chasing unknown, unseen killers? That's
crazy talk!" (Paraphrasing from Vince's O.J. Simpson video series; c.
1999.)
Anyhow, I have a strong feeling that even if every last square inch of
Dallas had been thoroughly searched by Sherlock Holmes himself on
11/22/63, and nothing had been found except in the TSBD, rabid CTers
would still find some convenient excuse to work their make-believe
"conspiracy" into the proceedings.
After all, what good is the truth when a conspiracy can be
manufactured from nothingness by scrutinizing to death every
microscopic detail of the crime, and then have the CT-Kooks highlight
with bold magic marker every tiny discrepancy they find (no matter how
well these discrepancies were explained at a later time in non-
conspiratorial ways)?
Some verbatim quotes from Vince Bugliosi this time:
"It couldn't be more obvious that there was no gunman at the Grassy
Knoll. No one SAW anybody with a rifle in that area. No weapon nor
expended cartridges from a weapon were found there. It didn't happen.
"Let's get into the mechanics -- who was this other gunman who, on the
day of the assassination, made his way into the Book Depository
Building, carrying a rifle....went up to the sixth floor....shot and
killed the President....made his way back down to the first
floor....and escaped without leaving a trace?
"How, in fact, if Oswald were innocent, did they GET Oswald, within
forty-five minutes of the assassination, to murder Officer Tippit? Or
was he framed for that murder too?!!
"As surely as I am standing here, as surely as night follows day, Lee
Harvey Oswald -- acting alone -- was responsible for the murder of
President John F. Kennedy." -- VB; 1986
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b3a8181c73cfa095
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Can you provide a shred of evidence which isolates Oswald as
the only sniper?
DVP -- This must be some kind of trick question. Gotta be. Because
nobody could be serious when asking such a lame question.
But, I guess I'll have to bite....
EVERY "shred" of PHYSICAL EVIDENCE "isolates Oswald as the only
sniper". Every piece.
To turn the tables, I'll now ask: What PHYSICAL EVIDENCE OF A
CONSPIRACY (e.g., guns, bullets, bullet shells, fingerprints, and
clothing fibers) can you provide to show that a conspiracy existed
with respect to JFK's assassination in 1963?
I'm still waiting for that first piece of "C.T. PHYSICAL EVIDENCE" to
show up. Will it arrive sometime before the 100th anniversary of the
crime in 2063?
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- You ignore the fact that many lone-gunman books do indeed
present conspiracy arguments.
DVP -- With the Warren Commission Report itself being one such
excellent example. 18.5% of the Warren Report is devoted solely to the
subject of "Investigation Of Possible Conspiracy" (164 of 888 pages,
including the 32-page "Speculations And Rumors" Appendix).
I often wonder if many (or any) CTers are aware of the above-mentioned
statistics regarding the WR?
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0134a.htm
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0331a.htm
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- What part of "occipital" don't you understand, Davey-boy?
DVP -- And what part of "somewhat" don't you understand, Mr.
Conspiracy Kook?
NONE of the autopsy doctors (in any of their official testimony) ever
placed the large JFK head (exit) wound anywhere except on the RIGHT-
FRONT-TOP area of the head. Never the "rear" or "back".
There's also, of course, the Offical JFK Autopsy Report itself (signed
by all three of the autopsists), which clearly indicates that
President Kennedy was shot only TWICE, with both shots coming from
"behind" and "above" the President.
Allow me to quote from the Autopsy Report directly (a document that
most conspiracy theorists must think is a complete fabrication from
Word One; because if it's not, then there's no doubt whatsoever that
JFK was shot only twice and only from behind).....
"It is our opinion that the deceased died as a result of two
perforating gunshot wounds inflicted by high-velocity projectiles
fired by a person or persons unknown. The projectiles were fired from
a point behind and somewhat above the level of the deceased. .... The
fatal missile entered the skull above and to the right of the external
occipital protuberance. .... A portion of the projectile made its exit
through the parietal bone on the right carrying with it portions of
cerebrum, skull and scalp." -- Via Official Autopsy Report of
Assassinated U.S. President John F. Kennedy
~~~~~
So, tell me again, Mr. CTer, how all three autopsy doctors were
rotten, lying cover-up agents? I like hearing that theory...over and
over again. It's a howl.
David Von Pein
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 13):
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From April 2006, June
2006, July 2006, and March 2007.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Evidence and ideas are as useless in
the troll's world as a match is in hell.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- And common sense and logical-thinking are as
useless to a conspiracy-loving kook as a mime was to Ray Charles.
A good example of "CT-Kook Interpretation" of events presents itself
during a certain airport video clip taken at Love Field showing Secret
Service Agent Henry Rybka being told to come away from the
Presidential limousine just as the motorcade is getting underway.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XY02Qkuc_f8
The video's conspiracy-loving narrator says that the "two" agents
being recalled off of JFK's bumper (even though it appears that Emory
Roberts in the SS car is only signalling to Rybka; Clint Hill appears
to have returned to his running-board position on his own) were
originally part of JFK's "bodyguards" assigned to be "human shields"
to protect the President, and that both agents (including Clint Hill)
were assigned to ride JFK's bumper during the ENTIRE motorcade drive
through Dallas.
That statement from that particular video in question is overblown and
just flat-out wrong. There are many films of various JFK motorcades,
and I have NEVER seen two agents constantly riding on the back of
JFK's car. The President wouldn't have permitted that anyway. He hated
the agents riding the bumpers.
As Clint Hill later explained, the agents only rode the bumper of the
President's car when the situation warranted doing so...but certainly
not all the time (nor even most of the time).
Does this mean that Secret Service protocol was violated in all of the
many OTHER parades too (including Kennedy's Inauguration parade in
1961)? Where's the "conspiratorial Secret Service stand-down" in all
of those many other instances where we don't see any agents riding
Kennedy's bumper, such as the examples provided below?.....
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/0/0c/Photo_jfkl-01_0130-AR-7956-1B.jpg
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/Hawaii2.jpg
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/3374883466e6f1e9
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- You see JFK reaching for an exit wound {in the Z-Film}?
DVP -- Of course. That's plain as day. Because it was determined that
the hole in his throat WAS, indeed, an "exit wound". Duh.
Why is reaching for the exit wound not a possibility? He had TWO holes
created in his body by Bullet #CE399....one of them in his throat,
where his hands generally rise toward.
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- I never said that I was the only one who ever discovered this
{the "JFK Was Trying To Cough Up A Bullet" theory}. But I will take
credit for bringing this issue to the attention of the world.
DVP -- And don't forget to take a few additional kook bows for
ISOLATING yet another HIGHLY-SUBJECTIVE hunk of evidence in the
case...and then KEEPING IT ISOLATED without offering up any potential
alternative, other than your "Proof Of Conspiracy" conjecture. Nice
work (for a CT-Kook).
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Arguing with morons like yourself, who can't see a man trying
to cough something up in a video, when the WORLD can see it, is just a
waste of time.
DVP -- Tell me this....did this "coughing" business just suddenly pop
into your head one day last week? Did you wake up in a sweat one night
and have a "coughing vision"? The light bulb of "coughing" TRUTH went
off in your head possibly?
You've probably watched those 26 seconds that comprise the Z-Film
countless times. But it took until viewing #1,478 before the
"obvious" (your word) nature of JFK's cough-fest became so great in
your mind that you felt compelled to say anything about it, eh?
One can only wonder why you failed to note this "obvious" observation
the other 1,477 times.
My guess on that -- You were probably running low on theories this
month, so "The Cough" was recycled from the inventive files of a
fellow member in the "Anybody But Oswald" club for a few more laps
around the kook track. (Plus, the advent of FREE online YouTube video
placement was no doubt attractive as well....a place where any
conspiracy nuthatch can peddle his wares.)
I'm also wondering why the proverbial "Z-Film Alteration Crew" didn't
see the "obvious" nature of the conspiracy-proving "JFK Cough" that's
visible in the film?
I guess the "cough" and the "head snap" (with the latter being
something that seals the "It Was A Conspiracy" deal for a huge number
of people) were things that the Z-Film Fakery team couldn't be
bothered with. They were much more concerned with Mary Moorman's shoes
and socks and a motorcycle cop's helmet bands.
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Hale Boggs suddenly vanished in an airplane crash in 1972.
DVP -- Yeah, that's certainly a "Mystery Death", isn't it? The "Death
Squad" conspirators must have thought it was wise to wait 9 years to
get rid of that guy Boggs. I guess they just crossed their fingers and
hoped that he wouldn't say anything in those nine years to expose the
"plot".
That makes about as much sense as waiting to kill assassination
eyewitness Lee Bowers, who died in a car crash three months AFTER he
had already been filmed by Mark Lane telling "conspiratorial" stuff.
But why would anybody bother to rub out Bowers at that point in time?
He was already ON FILM having gabbed about stuff that any "plotters"
would want kept quiet!
~LOL~
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/d52845e6c744cccf
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/27f90c384bcf02a6
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/524654ee25c81617
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Of course, the classic was the DVP response that there must be
a lone-assassin explanation or else a brilliant man like Bugliosi
wouldn't believe in a lone assassin and surely his book will answer
the question. C'mon!!!
DVP (April 2006) -- Yes, I have basically said that, and shall stand
by that belief, because I think it's 100% true.
Conspiracy addicts, on the other side of the coin, are forced to
disagree with my VB assessment, with those CTers thinking (evidently)
that Vincent is stupid enough or enough of a WC/LN brown-nosing
"robot" to take 20+ years to write a pro-LN book about the JFK case,
when he MUST know that everything he's writing is pure crap.
I cannot wrap myself around that latter CT logic re. Vince Bugliosi
(particular VB, of all people). Never have. Never will.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/cfb02505fe1534df
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- You know where Oswald was aiming? You know it for sure? How do
you know?
DVP -- I don't know to the exact SQUARE INCH where on JFK's body
Oswald was aiming, and neither do you. And I never claimed to know
such an impossible-to-determine thing.
But it's fairly obvious (via plain old common sense) that Oswald was
NOT aiming at the car's rear license plate, or at Jackie, or at Jean
Hill, or at Charles Brehm. He was aiming at JFK, and aiming to kill.
So where do you think he was aiming? His hands perhaps? Or his feet?
Sheesh.
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Tell me what time Oswald left his rooming house?
DVP -- The exact time is unknown (quite obviously), since nobody was
taking detailed notes as to exactly when (to the precise minute) they
saw LHO on 11/22/63; and, of course, nobody had a stopwatch on him
either, as he was walking and/or running from Beckley Avenue to Tenth
Street in Oak Cliff that day.
But the best guess is that Oswald left his roominghouse at approx.
1:03 PM or 1:04 PM (CST). But my own personal guess is it was even
earlier than that; because there's no way (IMO) he was fiddling around
in that shoebox-sized room for "3 or 4 minutes", per housekeeper
Earlene Roberts' account. There would be absolutely no reason
(logically-speaking) for Oswald to have been in that room for more
than 30 seconds at most.
Was Mrs. Roberts lying? Of course she wasn't. But people have a habit
of stretching out time estimates to (incorrect) lengthier guesses when
they're asked to re-create "timelines".
I can think of two good examples of such "time stretching" within the
JFK case alone. One being J.C. Price, who witnessed the assassination
from the roof of the Terminal Annex Building on the south side of
Dealey Plaza. Price said the gunshots were possibly "5 minutes" apart:
"There was a volley of shots, and then much later, maybe as much as
five minutes later, another one." -- Via the 11/22/63 affidavit of
J.C. Price
Another oddity associated with J.C. Price's account of the
assassination is his belief that Kennedy and Connally were travelling
through Dealey Plaza in separate cars. But that's a matter for another
discussion altogether.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/price.htm
And then there's assassination witness James Altgens, whose estimate
for the total length of the shooting was "less than 30 seconds".
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm
Now, yes, Altgens was technically correct in his estimate, but a much-
better estimate, quite obviously, would not have included the
ridiculously-lengthy time period of "30 seconds" within such a piece
of guesswork.
Those extra CTer-created gunmen must have REALLY been popping away
with their 4 or 5 rifles indeed, for it to have taken half-a-minute
(or "5 minutes" even, per Mr. Price!) to dispose of their one target.
~LOL~
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Tell me exactly how far {it was} from the rooming house to
10th and Patton.
DVP -- 0.85 miles. (Via Warren Commission Exhibit CE1119-A; Insert
A.) .....
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce1119a.jpg
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Tell me exactly what time Tippit was killed.
DVP -- That can only be estimated as well. But this "estimate" can
certainly be whittled down to a very few minutes, based on the
official Dallas Police radio logs (which we can only assume have the
correct time stamped to each transmission). Officer Tippit, therefore,
was definitely killed sometime shortly before 1:16 PM.
The whole notion that Oswald was innocent of J.D. Tippit's murder, as
many CTers believe, because he didn't have enough time to reach the
murder site, is completely a moot point based on the wealth of
evidence located at Tenth & Patton.....
E.g.,
1.) Multiple witnesses watching Oswald killing the officer, plus even
more people seeing Oswald (via positive I.D.) flee the scene, revolver
in hand, dumping shells along the way.
2.) The four bullet shells from Oswald's gun that some conspiracy
kooks, evidently, will foolishly insist were planted.
3.) Oswald's suspicious behavior after he killed Tippit.
4.) Oswald being arrested with the Tippit murder weapon on him in the
Texas Theater, wherein he pulls out the gun and fights like a wild
man.
This guy named Oswald sure seemed to be guilty of something here. Was
he willing to burn for murder just because he didn't pay the measly
movie-ticket fee?
The Warren Commission found that Oswald's under-one-mile trek from
Beckley to 10th Street could "easily" have been done (WR; Pg.
648). .....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0336b.htm
Also -- "Time tests of all of Oswald's movements establish that these
movements could have been accomplished in the time available to him."
-- WR; Pg. 649 .....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0337a.htm
Only a CT-Kook would demand absolute to-the-second exactness regarding
"timeline" evidence, when such exactitude is impossible to achieve.
But, then again, that's part of what makes those type of conspiracists
"kooks" in my estimation -- i.e., unreasonable demands so that they
can make mountains out of anthills and make guilty murderers seem
innocent.
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Can you absolutely be sure that he {Tippit} wasn't BM {"Badge
Man"}?
DVP -- Beautiful. I now have to prove that Officer Tippit DIDN'T shoot
at JFK, instead of you proving that he DID. Nice.
I also love the "Twin Tale" of CT-ism that exists within the above-
referenced quote. In that single sentence, that CTer is suggesting two
things that never happened:
1.) The existence of a "Badge Man" assassin on the Grassy Knoll.
And:
2.) The allegation that J.D. Tippit (an innocent murder victim himself
in the 1963 Dallas tragedy) was somehow involved in the killing of the
President.
This appears to be a case of trying to kill two CT birds with one hunk
of "Badge Man" guesswork.
And, yes, the weight of the evidence re. Tippit's movements on
11/22/63 certainly suggests that he was not even close to Dealey Plaza
at 12:30 PM. But don't let that tidbit stop you kooks from accusing
him of various evil deeds. Please.
There are ZERO pieces of evidence to support Tippit's "involvement" in
JFK's death, which must mean (per the rabid CT supporters) that Tippit
WAS involved.*
* = It's that "badge" thing I guess. If there had been a little pair
of wings painted into the Badge Man fuzziness, then the kooks would
probably be saying it was David Ferrie behind that fence. Ferrie was a
pilot you see; so who else COULD it have been, per the CT thought
process. A drawn-in Fedora would have equalled Jack Ruby as the Knoll
shooter. A really skinny gunman drawn into the Mary Moorman Polaroid
photo would have meant Frank Sinatra was taking aim. It's obvious.
There's nothing uglier than a pro-conspiracy kook who wants to smear
J.D. Tippit and free Saint Oswald too. A double-bill of absurdity.
Wanna try for a triple-bill and place Tippit's wife in the Dal-Tex
with a gun too?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4d1790303e6fcc19
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Here's your chance to convince me that Oswald killed Tippit.
DVP -- Any reasonable person looking at the evidence in the Tippit
case wouldn't require another person to "convince" them. I guess this
means that you are not a "reasonable" person who has looked at all of
the evidence that undeniably spells "Oswald Did It".
If you truly believe that Lee Harvey Oswald is innocent of J.D.
Tippit's slaying you probably belong in a padded room.
robc...@netscape.com
> DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 12):
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
> Conspiracy" Debate.
>
> FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From February 2006, March
> 2006, June 2006, November 2006, and March 2007.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- {Lee Harvey} Oswald's ties with the
> Soviet Union make me suspicious that they put him up to killing
> Kennedy.
>
> DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- And via such a plot, Oswald was just willing
> to use his own rifle to murder the President, huh? And was willing to
> leave that traceable weapon in the building after doing the deed?
>
I think these are just long winded discussions DVP has with himself.
Is there really any CTer? He is like Kramer when he hosted his own
talk show in his apartment. LOL
aeffects
LMAO!
David Von Pein
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/browse_thread/thread/daa4149c43e59e75
>>> "I think these are just long-winded discussions DVP has with himself." <<<
Incorrect (as per the Rob norm).
>>> "Is there really any 'CTer'?" <<<
Yes, but it's not always the same "CTer" I'm responding to.
However, I can understand why you might think I merely invented the
"CTer" comments myself, since many of the "CTer" remarks in my
"Debates" series are so incredibly stupid, inane, and kooky. In other
words, it's sometimes difficult to believe that anyone (even a CT-
Kook) would say some of the nutty things that certain CTers say.
Here are some examples of what I mean (and these comments all came
from various conspiracy theorists, believe it or not; you can search
the archives at Google Groups and JFK-Lancer for verification if you
want to). And if you need to take a laugh break while reading the
following CTer comments, I'll understand completely.....
================================================
CTer -- "{Tippit witnesses Virginia and Barbara Davis} did indeed call
the police first, after hearing gunfire."
CTer -- "More witnesses said the shots came from the grassy knoll than
from the TSBD."
CTer -- "Can you provide a shred of evidence which isolates Oswald as
the only sniper?"
CTer -- "You know where Oswald was aiming? You know it for sure? How
do you know?"
CTer -- "Can you absolutely be sure that he {Tippit} wasn't BM {"Badge
Man"}?"
CTer -- "I defy anybody to imagine that the bag Montgomery was
carrying would be thought of as a "guncase". ... It's nothing but a
large rectangular paper sack. And the creases on it indicate it had
been folded around some books."
CTer -- "You WC defenders will latch onto ANYTHING and claim that it
proves Oswald's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Such as his leaving
his wedding ring in the cup."
CTer -- "At the time of Tippit's murder, Oswald's hair was probably
not messed up because he had been in his room at 1:02/1:03 where he
changed his clothes and ran a comb through his hair."
CTer -- "{The} Weaver pic proves conspiracy. {The} only corner window
in the upper right-hand corner of the Depository in which the Brennan/
Fischer/Walther/Edwards suspect could be, in the Weaver Polaroid, is
on the 5th floor."
CTer -- "Any photo which shows the box sitting on the windowsill is a
fake."
CTer -- "NO ONE ever put Lee Harvey Oswald on the 6th floor at the
time of the shooting. It's a lie to assert otherwise."
CTer -- "He {James Powell} snapped his picture just a couple of
minutes BEFORE the motorcade arrived when "Oswald" stuck his rifle out
of that window."
CTer -- "Well at least you're consistent....most everything you post
is just a wild guess."
CTer -- "The DPD's case was so weak {against Oswald} that it was
nearly non-existent."
CTer -- "LHO was one of the lousiest shots the Marines ever had on the
shooting line!"
CTer -- "The revolver-emptier had a different jacket on than LHO."
CTer -- "David, You seem to have forgotten that LHO had an alibi for
his whereabouts during the shooting."
CTer -- "The curtains and curtain rods in his {LHO's} room were very
flimsy and he wanted to put in a different type. .... He forgot them
after being confronted by the cop. He didn't have time to go back and
get them before the police sealed off the building."
CTer -- "You should apologize to everyone for not researching before
posting your untrue opinions."
CTer -- "You think his {Oswald} being in the TSBD was an accident? I
will remind you of the power wielded by the men behind this
operation."
CTer -- "The LN scenario has sunk so low that it is about to
disappear. With each passing investigation, or lack thereof, new
evidence is unearthed that causes it to sink further. Mr. B had better
hurry up with his book or he will be too late to pull you out of the
quicksand."
CTer -- "Before the forensic exam, the gunshot wounds were rearranged
by a covert team to prove one, lone assassin."
CTer -- "There is persuasive evidence to believe that there never was
a paper bag--until it was realized that some method of introducing the
rifle to the TSBD by Oswald was needed."
CTer -- "It's quite easy to control the evidence when you are in
charge of the evidence. Evidence can be destroyed. Evidence can be
made to disappear. It's quite easy when everything is secret."
CTer -- "The Croft photo shows the tiny piece of JFK's shirt exiting
through his suit jacket."
CTer -- "The bullet that hit JFK in the throat was a TINY high-
velocity projectile. It didn't have the impact energy of a larger and
heavier bullet."
CTer -- "{Oswald's declaration that the backyard photo he was shown
was a fake} startled the cops...who reasoned that if the fakery was so
obvious that Lee Oswald spotted it, they could not allow it to be seen
by a nosy public."
CTer -- "We have a rifle found on the 6th floor of dubious origin."
CTer -- "There is no proof that any bullets were fired from the
Carcano that day."
CTer -- "Dale Myers' rear view is his own conception."
CTer -- "The book "Best Evidence" was a truly brilliant analysis.
Simply amazing."
CTer -- "I couldn't care less about an animation, David. An animation
is an animation is an animation."
CTer -- "The "coat bunch" is a non-issue. It is impossible for the
coat to rise up enough to make the SBT work."
CTer -- "This only goes to show LHO was a "plant" (i.e., patsy)."
CTer -- "The CT theory explains ALL the eyewitness testimony...such as
those who testified that LHO was wearing different clothes."
CTer -- "{Officer Marrion L. Baker} lied a minimum of THREE times."
CTer -- "The person who was seen in the shoe-store window, and went
into the balcony {of the Texas Theater} and got arrested there, needed
an alibi, until the wrong one got arrested."
CTer -- "After Oswald was arrested, someone figured out that LHO's
pistol and the cartridges {at the Tippit murder site} didn't match. So
into the trash go some cartridges, and into the record go others."
CTer -- "Howard Brennan DESCRIBED the gunman in the WEST-end window."
CTer -- "Given the FACT some {people} believe the Zapruder film is a
complete fabrication, it makes the above {"Z-Film Supports The SBT"
declaration} rather suspect; not to mention {rendering} Myers' cartoon
useless."
CTer -- "How in God's name could Lee Harvey Oswald have the power to
get the Secret Service, protecting Kennedy's limousine, to stand
down?"
CTer -- "When the SBT is patently false, it's just one step to knowing
that there is a greater possibility of multiple shooters."
CTer -- "There's every possibility that Oswald helped a shooter sneak
into the building."
CTer -- "It is physiologically impossible for him {JFK} to have been
struck at Z224 and be making VISIBLE major muscle arm movements 1/18th
to 2/18ths of a second later."
CTer -- "The bullet that entered his {JFK's} throat was lodged in it."
CTer -- "If you run Zapruder frames 350-355 back-and-forth
successively in stabilized form, watching Altgens' leg shadows on the
curb area, can you believe what you see? ... Z350, 352, and 354 have
similar angles, and the intervening 351 and 353 have the section on
the curbstone kinking back absurdly."
CTer -- "It would worry me if you DID believe it was one superhuman
shooter from a window."
CTer -- "The {Sniper's-Nest} boxes are comparatively insignificant."
CTer -- "The government never has proven its case."
CTer -- "One photo was taken of a bullet being recovered that is
nowhere in evidence."
CTer -- "The FBI was there to re-write history if needed; as they did
with any number of eyewitness accounts."
CTer -- "David, you wouldn't even admit to the visible damage at the
rear of Kennedy's head in the Zapruder film."
CTer -- "The gun used by Oswald in the theater was not the same
weapon, as it had a misfiring pin."
CTer -- "There's documentation to suggest that only two bullets were
fired from that location {the SN in the TSBD} -- or at least, only two
bullet casings were found, not three as was later claimed."
CTer -- "Tina Towner's film has a splice just as JFK's car is opposite
the TSBD entrance. Do you suppose LHO standing out front may be the
reason for the missing frames?"
CTer -- "The mastoid process is an unfixed point {on the body}."
CTer -- "{David} Belin's methods and spouting off without any real
evidence are also known to be highly despicable."
CTer -- "Almost everything you propose {re. JFK's throat wound being
one of exit} should be dismissed immediately."
CTer -- "They {the Secret Service} would have never allowed open
windows {along the motorcade route}."
CTer -- "Davey-boy is free to explain why Parkland felt the need to
insert chest tubes if no damage ever occurred in the chest."
CTer -- "Circumstantial evidence is never sufficient in and of itself
to give anything other than a likelihood. It's an indication, but it's
not proof."
CTer -- "Ruby was let inside {the DPD basement} by one of his many
police friends."
CTer -- "Oswald's fingerprints were not located on the rifle."
CTer -- "{Dale} Myers is a chronic liar and a phony."
CTer -- "Oh my God! You are appalled at the idea that Oswald might
steal some curtain rods, but think nothing of accusing him of a double
murder?"
CTer -- "I don't think the things you list tell anyone that Oswald
murdered Tippit."
CTer -- "The best piece of evidence of a conspiracy is the way JFK's
head jerks backward after being shot."
CTer -- "The shell casings from the Tippit killing got changed. An
officer wrote his initials on them."
CTer -- "CE399 could have indeed come from near the top of the Dal-Tex
building."
CTer -- "Just a few inches one way {the SBT bullet's path, that is,
per this kook's Oscar-worthy fantasy account of the event} and then it
suddenly stops, reverses direction...I don't believe LHO even was a
shooter...And that piece-of-junk rifle..."
CTer -- "The pattern didn't look like one bullet going through two
bodies. The Warren Commission was forced to make it so appear. You're
stuck with a zig-zagging bullet."
CTer -- "The killer would not need to run if he knew that the police
were going to blame the murder on Lee Oswald."
CTer -- "Because Ruby killed Oswald before the trial, Oswald is
innocent. Innocent of killing Kennedy and Tippit."
CTer -- "The CTers' theory explains the frame-up being performed on
Oswald PRIOR to the assassination (the car lot, the rifle range, the
scope being mounted...)."
CTer -- "The only evidence as to his {Oswald's} location suggests he
wasn't on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting."
CTer -- "He {Howard Brennan} knew Lee was not the man whom he had seen
with a rifle."
CTer -- "The crime was quite simple to solve until someone dreamed up
the SBT."
CTer -- "Multiple shooters from multiple positions, firing in-synch,
would cause confusion as to where shots were coming from, and
ultimately make it seem plausible they came from wherever would be
convenient."
CTer -- "Someone wanting to forge photos might have only one reference
photo of Oswald looking straight forward and need to use it for all
the photos."
CTer -- "When JFK is shot in the head, why does his wife suddenly move
to the back of the car like she's trying to get out? I never
understood why she did that."
CTer -- "The bullet {CE399} was found and handled by a civilian,
Darrell Tomlinson. Therefore, the bullet is not evidentially
preserved."
CTer -- "There is absolutely no limit to the number of people who are
willing to cooperate in the cover-up."
CTer -- "Anyone can plant shell casings on the floor."
CTer -- "You don't have a single clue to what the conspirators were
thinking, nor can you even name them."
CTer -- "There seems to be plenty of reliable evidence that it wasn't
Oswald who killed Tippit."
CTer -- "The exact location and nature of JFK's wounds have been
totally fouled up for the historical record; and it wasn't by accident
or through incompetence."
================================================
DEBATING THE JFK MURDER CASE (ALL 60 VOLUMES):
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/d64779e514304326
================================================
aeffects
> www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/browse_thread/thread/daa4149c...
>
> read more ยป
you're either well on the way to losing it, or it's already gone, son!
Things slow down on your blog, LMFAO!