Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 18)
David Von Pein
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From March 2006, April
2006, and May 2006.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- So you're saying they can't close down
roads for the President?
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- Of course they (the police) can close down
roads, etc. -- in fact, they DID do this...all throughout the
motorcade route.
But a "Main Street to Stemmons Freeway" access route (circa 1963)
wasn't just a matter of closing down some roads and re-routing
traffic. A portion of the street would physically have needed to be
ripped apart in order to allow the motorcade access to Stemmons
directly from Main Street. A concrete barrier between Elm and Main
would need to be removed (then replaced afterward obviously) to get
the President directly from Main Street to Stemmons. ....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0282b.htm
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0283a.htm
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- {Lee Harvey Oswald was seen} in the break room 90 seconds
{after the assassination}, and was not out of breath, but had been
there for some time.
DVP -- A wild guess on your part re. Oswald having "been there for
some time". If you're basing that comment on Carolyn Arnold's
testimony about seeing Oswald at either 12:15 or 12:25 on Friday
(11/22/63), it's a weak argument....because Arnold's account has
conveniently changed over the years, and it still wouldn't give Oswald
an alibi for the precise time of the assassination as well (12:30 PM).
And the "not out of breath" argument has always been a very weak one
in this case when it comes to discussing Oswald's trip DOWN four
flights of stairs. Anyone who is not significantly overweight can
easily descend four flights of stairs and not be panting like mad.
This has always been a crazy CT argument, IMO.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/aaeb4a1389e69938
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0088b.htm
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Ruby was let inside {the DPD basement} by one of his many
police friends.
DVP -- I don't suppose it matters to you that there's no proof
whatsoever that Jack Ruby was "let inside by one of his many police
friends", does it?
The most-likely-to-be-correct solution is that Ruby simply walked down
the ramp just like he told the Warren Commission on July 18, 1964.
Let's listen:
JACK RUBY -- "As I left the Western Union, I walked toward the ramp,
and as I walked down, Lieutenant Pierce's car was parked already on
the curb, partly on the curb and partly some of it was on the ramp,
and some officer was talking to him...?"
ARLEN SPECTER -- "Did you walk by his car?"
MR. RUBY -- "Yes."
MR. SPECTER -- "At the same time it was parked there?"
MR. RUBY -- "Yes."
MR. SPECTER -- "So that the officer did not see you..."
MR. RUBY -- "That's correct."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/ruby_j2.htm
~~~~~~
Now, I'm not going to say that comments made by criminals in custody
are the best way to arrive at "the truth"; because, obviously, that's
not the case. With a good example being Lee Oswald and the many lies
he told almost non-stop after his arrest. ....
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/beb8390c3526124d
But criminals don't always lie. Oswald told a few truths mixed in with
his wealth of falsehoods. And Ruby's details surrounding his basement/
garage entry into the DPD are rather interesting and convincing
overall.
For example, how did Ruby know that Pierce was talking to another
officer at just that time if he (Ruby) wasn't there? Or do CTers think
that that info was "leaked" to Ruby in his Dallas jail cell before he
testified with the above quote in front of the WC?
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- The HSCA determined the bullet path {through JFK's upper back
and neck} was in a slightly UPWARD direction.
DVP -- Yes...and it's an incorrect determination too. And all a person
really needs to do is try a simple test on themselves or another
person...and measure 5.5 inches from their "Mastoids" (at the lower
tip of the ear) and then compare it with the area of the neck below
the Adam's Apple to determine the slightly DOWNWARD trajectory (back
to front) between these two points.
Obviously, that kind of simplistic test is not going to be perfect,
since the autopsy measurements were based on Jack Kennedy's body and
not yours or mine or John Doe's. But it gives a good general idea of
the downward path the SBT bullet took through JFK's body.
http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/autopsy_slideshow/images/jfk_zeroang.jpg
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- The Warren Commission managed to publish 26 volumes of
evidence, yet missed the very first document created--the death
certificate.
DVP -- So what? Are you saying JFK isn't really dead? Or that Admiral
Burkley, who signed the death certificate, is one of the main
"conspirators" in the case? What IS your point here? I see none.
Except the probable CT suspicion of "moving wounds" on JFK's back. But
the death certificate placement of the back wound says "back", not
"neck", which is perfectly consistent with the autopsy photograph of
President Kennedy's back wound. So, again, what's your point?
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- You have no clue about how many shots might have been fired
that were inaudible or nearly simultaneous with other audible shots.
DVP -- Via this argument, NO crime involving guns could ever be
thoroughly solved or blamed on a lone shooter....because there COULD
have always been another gunman somewhere who fired an "inaudible" or
"simultaneous" shot.
Great argument, huh? Nobody hears that shot over there, and there's no
physical evidence of it either....meaning: there MUST have actually
been a shot from over there (of a totally-silenced and unprovable
variety).
That's akin to the proverbial pro-conspiracy argument of:
"Since virtually all the evidence leads to only Oswald...that must
mean just the OPPOSITE (i.e., Oswald's perfectly innocent somehow)!"
Logical? Hardly.
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Oh my God! You are appalled at the idea that Oswald might
steal some curtain rods, but think nothing of accusing him of a double
murder?
DVP -- In the "He's Innocent, But Is Part Of The Plot In Some Fashion"
CT scenario (which almost all CTers believe, if they have at least one
active brain cell, that is) --- "stealing" the curtain rods from Ruth
Paine's home, and not saying a thing about any "curtain rods" to
either Ruth Paine or his wife Marina, is a stupid act on LHO's part.
Because, in such a case, the more people who can verify the package as
"curtain rods", the better Oswald is going to be.
Of course, to believe such a silly thing as: "Oswald Was Part Of The
JFK Plot, But Didn't Shoot Anybody, And Only Went To Irving On An
Unannounced Thursday Night Instead Of Friday In Order To STEAL Some
Curtain Rods From Ruth Paine" -- we'd have to believe, I suppose, that
Lee Oswald was the dumbest of all Patsies to come down the pike. ....
In such a crazy scenario, Oswald knows he's bringing a perfectly-
innocent, non-lethal item into work on 11/22/63 (unless he figured he
was going to be assigned the job of beating the passing President to
death with the curtain rods) .... and he knows there's a plot brewing
to kill Kennedy that very day from the very Plaza that his workplace
overlooks. ....
And yet he carts the bulky package into work wrapped up like a mummy
anyway (having to KNOW what the consequences of doing this might be
later on, because he KNOWS there's a plot to kill the President, and,
per Oliver Stone, Oswald is made to believe that he was going to serve
some purpose as some kind of useless telephone "contact" on the 2nd
Floor of the Depository, as he "waits for a phone call that never
comes") .... and even though the package has only innocent curtain
rods in it, he decides to hide the package somewhere in the building
where nobody will see it. ....
And then he decides to leave the rods behind in the TSBD after 12:33
on Nov. 22, and then decides he's going to lie to the police when he
tells them he didn't take any bulky package into work (even though the
package contains only perfectly-innocent curtain rods).
Gee, what a nice "Patsy" Lee Harvey Oswald was. He tried to frame
HIMSELF it would seem. He was just "aiding" his fellow Patsy-Framing
conspirators when he wouldn't tell the police he really had curtain
rods with him that morning. And he was trying to help his frame-up
even more by making the "curtain rod" incident look more "suspicious"
and covert by stealing them from the Paine garage, instead of creating
a better alibi for himself by simply asking Ruth Paine if he could
have the rods.
You don't find cooperative patsies like Lee Harvey every day of the
week. Good thing for the "real killers" they had such a nice guy like
Oswald working for them....in that he was willing to take the WHOLE
blame for TWO murders he evidently never committed on November 22.
And he was also willing to "play along" with the Patsy-Framers by
ACTING LIKE THE GUILTIEST MAN IN DALLAS just after BOTH the Kennedy
and Tippit murders were committed by OTHER people.
What a guy!
Maybe Lee's mom was right after all when she said this about her boy
shortly after he was killed by Jack Ruby:
"Lee Harvey Oswald, my son, even after his death, has done more for
his country than any other living human being." -- Marguerite Oswald
~LOL!~
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/85290a6703a31221
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Just a few inches one way {the SBT bullet's path, that is, per
this kook's Oscar-worthy fantasy account of the event} and then it
suddenly stops, reverses direction...I don't believe LHO even was a
shooter...And that piece-of-junk rifle...
DVP -- Okay. I'll stop you right there. This is more than enough to
fully establish your status as another conspiracy-loving kook, as you
babble the nearly-verbatim pro-conspiracy nonsense as thousands before
you. (It was the "I don't believe LHO even was a shooter" line that
cemented your "kook" status).
Then there's also:
The zig-zag SBT path....
Oswald was the lousiest shot in America....
That crappy POS rifle!....
Joseph Milteer said this....
James Files said that....
Gerry Ford's a crook too (right?)....
The SBT is a ruse.
Perhaps you'd like to add these items too:
Kennedy wasn't even killed.
Neither was Malcolm X.
Barbara Eden has got them both in her bottle right now.
And Khrushchev is cute as a button.
Fantasies....it's hard to live without them.
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Because Ruby killed Oswald before the trial, Oswald is
innocent. Innocent of killing Kennedy and Tippit.
DVP -- This argument won't hold up in any way. Because, based on the
overwhelming evidence in the case, Oswald was certainly NOT "innocent"
of killing either man in 1963.
Via this "He was killed, therefore he's innocent" logic, would you
have said O.J. Simpson was "innocent" of the two murders he so
obviously committed in 1994 if Simpson had been shot and killed prior
to his trial?
Yes, I know that Simpson was found "Not Guilty" by the jury; but that
is a long way from declaring him "innocent", and I think everybody
realizes the difference of course.
If ever a jury came to a wrong verdict, that was the one. But my main
point is that O.J. would have been just as guilty (based on the
evidence in his case), even if he had died before his trial commenced.
Death wouldn't have taken him off the hook for knifing Nicole Brown
and Ronald Goldman. No way. Same goes for Lee Harvey Oswald. Jack
Ruby's bullet didn't suddenly WIPE OUT the vast evidence that tells us
Oswald is guilty.
eca...@tx.rr.com
> DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 18):
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
> Conspiracy" Debate.
>
> FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From March 2006, April
> 2006, and May 2006.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- So you're saying they can't close down
> roads for the President?
>
> DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- Of course they (the police) can close down
> roads, etc. -- in fact, they DID do this...all throughout the
> motorcade route.
>
> But a "Main Street to Stemmons Freeway" access route (circa 1963)
> wasn't just a matter of closing down some roads and re-routing
> traffic. A portion of the street would physically have needed to be
> ripped apart in order to allow the motorcade access to Stemmons
> directly from Main Street. A concrete barrier between Elm and Main
> would need to be removed (then replaced afterward obviously) to get
> the President directly from Main Street to Stemmons. ....
>
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0...
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
David these posts re Debating The
Kennedy Assassination are Gold
Label material.. This particular
one is a beauty.. Here's hoping
what's left of the TSFH gang will
read them, and if they do, read
them *objectively*
Nice going DVP.
Ed 0302Mar1507
tomnln
Exactly what position was officer Baker in when he spotteed Oswald?
ed cage;
Exactly what position was Oswald in when Baker spotted him?
<eca...@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1173945836....@l75g2000hse.googlegroups.com...