Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 59)
David Von Pein
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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From March 2007.
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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Compared to today's police lines and
CSI methods, the {JFK crime-scene} scenario is a desperate joke. ....
And not a word {of LHO's interrogations} was actually recorded!
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- I, too, realize that the police work (the
"CSI" type stuff) that was done by the DPD in '63 was not nearly what
we'd encounter in circa 21st Century. But it was obviously a different
world (and police mindset) in '63.
And I, too, am also shocked (in hindsight) that none of Oswald's 12
hours of interrogation was recorded (or even transcribed in any
verbatim fashion).
But the DPD just did not do that type of detailed recording of
suspects circa '63 -- Will Fritz verified that fact when he said to
the WC that he had asked his superiors for a tape recorder, but they
never had gotten him one. .....
JOSEPH BALL -- "Did you have any tape recorder?"
CAPTAIN J. WILL FRITZ -- "No, sir. I don't have a tape recorder. We
need one; if we had one at this time we could have handled these
conversations far better."
MR. BALL -- "The Dallas Police Department doesn't have one?"
MR. FRITZ -- "No, sir. I have requested one several times but so far
they haven't gotten me one."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm
Therefore, we're left with sketchy notes by different people, who
heard different things at different times from suspect Lee
Oswald...only adding fuel to the conspiracy fire for the CTers of the
world -- i.e., What did Oswald say? When did he say it? Or did he
REALLY say this or that?
And the one thing that really amazes me (in the "CSI" type regard) is
the fact that the police didn't even bother to shut down Elm Street to
regular traffic after JFK's shooting. Cars can be seen travelling
right over the assassination spot on Elm just minutes after the
assassination. Incredible indeed...but, again...a different mindset,
circa 1963.
Today, the whole Plaza would probably be "yellow taped"...as well as
the limo at Parkland, where photogs were able to get within feet of
the bloody limo just after the event took place, which, IMO, is one of
the reasons why the SS decided to wipe out some of the blood from the
limousine at the hospital (in order to minimize the amount of gore in
the back seat in case a nosy cameraman got too close).
In retrospect, that limo wipe-down looks terrible and possibly
"suspicious" to many people. But, then again, the agent did it while
he had to know he was being FILMED while cleaning up the limo. That's
certainly not indicative of someone wanting to HIDE anything.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b72e39e0b25f7473
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CTer -- Who gave the order to abscond with JFK's body?
DVP -- In my opinion, many of the so-called "pro-conspiracy" points
that have been brought up by CTers over the years can be countered in
a non-conspiratorial fashion with the use of one single word --
JACKIE.
Because it was Jackie Kennedy who was, unwittingly, actually
responsible for JFK's body being moved to Washington.
Why do I say that? You only need to read the Warren Commission
testimony of Kennedy aide Ken O'Donnell to know why I say that. Let's
take a peek:
KENNETH O'DONNELL -- "Her {Jackie's} response to me was she would not
leave her husband's body. At that point, I realized that she would
not. The doctor had continually attempted to get her to take some form
of sedation. And she had consistently refused, and told me she would
not take anything, that she was going to stay with her husband.
"I realized that she was going to stay with her husband, no matter
what anybody did, and there was no possible way of in any way getting
her to leave. And so, therefore, the only alternative I could see was
that we move the President. It is an assumption I probably would have
arrived at anyway, but I arrived at it in this manner.
"So I went out and got hold of Dr. Burkley and General McHugh, and one
of the agents, and Andy Berger, as I recall, and told them to get a
casket, to bring it back, and Dr. Burkley would have the doctors
prepare the body for removal, and that we would proceed to the airport
and go to Washington. This was done very rapidly, as I recollect. It
seems to me it wasn't more than half an hour that they arrived with
the casket.
"I remember just before they arrived I got Dave Powers and said there
was a little room in the back that we ought to just take Mrs. Kennedy
under some subterfuge, and talk to her in the room while we brought
the casket in, because I thought that might be the final blow. And we
did, and--but she knew what was going on. She came out and said, "No,
I want to watch it all'. And she stood in the doorway, and thanked us
for our attempt at being compassionate. And then they took it in, and
put the body in the casket."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/odonnell.htm
~~~~~~
So, as can be seen from O'Donnell's words, it was actually O'Donnell
(based on Jackie's actions) who ultimately decided that JFK's body had
to be moved.
"The only alternative I could see was that we move the President."
O'Donnell did also say: "It is an assumption I probably would have
arrived at anyway" --- but it was Jackie's refusal to leave JFK's side
that ultimately led to the body-moving decision.
I have a feeling that many conspiracy theorists do not realize how
much input Jacqueline Kennedy had on the post-12:30 events of November
22, 1963.
Jackie decided WHERE the autopsy would be performed -- Bethesda. She
could have chosen Walter Reed (or some other location possibly)...but
the fact that the decision was left to Jackie herself is a strong
indication (in fact, it's pretty much ironclad PROOF, in my opinion)
that no shady goings-on were transpiring re. JFK's body and his
wounds.
I guess David Lifton and the "Body Alterationists" must feel that the
"plotters" had Government-sponsored shills and evil crooks and liars
at the ready at SEVERAL different hospitals in Washington (just in
case JFK would be taken to those non-Bethesda locations).
And that's one thing that makes Mr. Lifton's nutty theory all the more
ridiculous, of course. Lifton almost has to make JACKIE a conspirator
in order for his theory to work out right. (In addition to O'Donnell,
Larry O'Brien, Dr. Burkley, and Dave Powers, to boot.)
Similar to O'Donnell's account of the events at Parkland that led to
JFK's body being taken to Washington, there's this testimony from
another top Kennedy aide, Lawrence O'Brien:
MR. O'BRIEN -- "The reference was made that this had to be treated as
just another homicide, and that no special considerations could be
given to the problem. That, of course, increased our concern about
Mrs. Kennedy, who said she would not leave her husband, and that we
could envision Mrs. Kennedy in that state in the hospital for hours or
even longer. So, therefore, it was our determination that the
President should be taken from the hospital."
MR. ADAMS -- "This was the determination of you, Mr. O'Donnell, and
Dr. Burkley?"
MR. O'BRIEN -- "That is right."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/obrien.htm
~~~~~~
Plus -- Jackie and Robert Kennedy were pretty much controlling the
tempo of that autopsy too. They wanted it done fast...in fact, at
first they didn't even want ANY autopsy...but luckily somebody changed
their minds on that.
The autopsy certainly wasn't ideal. Far from it. But it wasn't the
total botch-job that many CTers feel it was. The wounds were duly
noted (save the throat wound, which was a goof by Humes; he should
have phoned Dr. Perry in Dallas WHILE PRESIDENT KENNEDY WAS STILL ON
THE SLAB, but he didn't)...and photos and X-rays were taken, per
procedure.
Would Dr. Rose in Dallas have performed a better autopsy? No one can
say. But IMO, given the tremendous pressures from Jackie, RFK, and
Burkley...I believe that Humes, et al, did a good job that night. Not
perfect, no. But the autopsy was good enough, certainly, to determine
that NO SHOTS HIT JOHN F. KENNEDY FROM THE FRONT. Period. And that's,
ultimately, what kills ALL "multi-shooter" conspiracy theories.
That doesn't kill a smaller two-man "plot", I suppose. I.E., maybe
Oswald had someone urging him on, but LHO was the only gunman. That
type of "unknown" can never be solved 100%.
It's my opinion, though, that that type of smaller plot did not exist
either...because if it had existed -- why was Oswald left hung out to
dry after shooting the President? Where's the #2 man when Oz needed
the bum? He's nowhere to be seen. No getaway car. Nothing. Oswald is
left to take a bus and a cab and his own two feet to get away. That
indicates a SOLO act, IMO.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/68583bc9db71eaa3
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CTer -- Before the forensic exam, the gunshot wounds were rearranged
by a covert team to prove one, lone assassin.
DVP -- This stupid scenario is not even remotely possible, of course,
and everybody knows it. And yet the Lifton-esque shit just keeps on a-
comin' from certain conspiracy-loving quarters.
I guess BOTH Barbara Eden and Elizabeth Montgomery must have aided the
"covert team" of head-altering surgeons on 11/22/63, in order to
(firstly) get the body off of Air Force One and into the hands of the
proverbial and never-identified "covert team" of incredible
surgeons...and (secondly) to be able to re-arrange JFK's head wounds
so beautifully and perfectly so as to fool all the autopsists at
Bethesda come 8 PM on the night of Nov. 22nd. (Humes, Finck, and
Boswell are ALL rotten liars and military cover-up
operatives...right?)
Pure bunk.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/598f57a52bc3affe
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CTer -- He {Howard Brennan} DESCRIBED the location where he saw the
gunman aiming the rifle from the window, and he did NOT describe the
window on the EAST end of the sixth floor.
DVP -- This is total nonsense, and anyone who reads all of Howard
Brennan's testimony would know that the CTer who wrote the above tripe
doesn't have the slightest idea what he's talking about.
Brennan's testimony shows that he saw a man (Lee Harvey Oswald) in
only ONE single window in the Texas School Book Depository on 11/22/63
-- and that window was the southeast corner window on the sixth floor.
Any reasonable person who examines all of Brennan's Warren Commission
testimony would easily come to the conclusion that Brennan only saw a
man in the EAST-end window. And it's also easy to see that nobody was
manipulating Brennan's words, nor was David Belin preventing any "West
End" references from getting into the official record.
But, just like almost all other conspiracy kooks who are charter
members of the popular "Anybody But Oswald Was Involved In This
Murder" club, the CTer who wrote the above remarks has no idea how to
properly and objectively evaluate physical evidence or witness
testimony.
~~~~~~
LOTS MORE STUFF ABOUT ASSASSINATION EYEWITNESS HOWARD L. BRENNAN (AND
THE CRAZY WORLD OF CONSPIRACY KOOKS):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7d3264251021ff76
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CTer -- How can you tell that the {head} turns {of the limo's
occupants} toward the north side of Elm St. are NOT in response to the
cheering that Mary Woodward's group gave?
DVP -- Obviously, I cannot prove that those right turns by JFK, JBC,
and Jackie weren't as a result of such crowd cheering. But I do know
that a rifle shot from the TSBD was occurring at just about that same
point in time (approx. Z160 on the Zapruder Film), and it was a
gunshot that came from over the right shoulders of all three of those
individuals I just mentioned.
Regarding other "witness" difficulties for the "LN" scenario:
I also cannot fully explain why certain witnesses insisted they saw
JFK reacting to being shot immediately after the FIRST shot. I'm
wondering, though, if the mind didn't play tricks on the witnesses'
eyes (and ears) in this regard.
Admittedly this is just a guess....but many witnesses said the first
shot sounded softer or like a "firecracker". They didn't immediately
equate it to a GUNSHOT or an attempt on the President's life. The mind
perhaps dismissed this "firecracker" noise. When the second (louder)
shot occurred, the witnesses now associated this as the FIRST
"GUNSHOT", then they see JFK's arms rise.
I haven't memorized each witness' exact testimony or "firecracker"
timelines, and I'd probably find conflicting testimony re. this theory
of "Disassociating The Firecracker Noise From Shot #2" in the record
if I scoured it. I'm just saying the mind can play tricks, and the
witness record in this case is, indeed, a varied one in many different
respects.
But the "Z224 SBT hit" on the Zapruder Film is hard to fight, in my
very strong opinion. It's there...to see...again...and again. ....
http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/4594.gif
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Re. the question of a large "cover-up"......
DVP -- I'd submit that many CTers possibly haven't thought through the
question of how MANY different people and different AGENCIES would
have to be involved in order to pull off the type of plot and cover-up
that many CTers think DID occur in November of 1963.
The cover-up would almost certainly require the participation of THREE
different law-enforcement agencies -- the Dallas Police Department,
the Secret Service, and the FBI. (Plus the Dallas County Sheriff's
Office as well, which could be considered a separate {fourth} agency
here.)
This is due to the timeline factor of WHEN evidence was collected and
WHERE....and by WHAT law-enforcement agency.
E.G.:
The DPD collected all of the Book Depository evidence (which, of
course, ALL hangs Lee Harvey Oswald) -- the rifle, the bullet shells,
the empty paper bag, and LHO's fingerprints.
The SS was the first official agency to handle other evidence that
also implicates Oswald -- Bullet CE399 and the bullet fragments in the
President's limousine (which were then handed over to Robert Frazier
of the FBI on the night of Nov. 22nd).
And the FBI took charge of all the evidence at about 11:30 PM on
11/22/63.
So, without all of these agencies working in "LET'S FRAME OSWALD"
unison/tandem, I cannot see how such a cover-up plot could have
succeeded. And the notion that all of these many people, within
different agencies, all had the desire to frame an innocent man (for
TWO murders, no less, including Officer J.D. Tippit's), all the while
allowing the "Real Killers" to escape scot-free, is just absolutely
beyond crazy, in my view.
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CTer -- As you click rapidly back-and-forth between {Zapruder Film
frames} 225-235, can you tell me you can really believe that Connally
could have juggled his Stetson with his just-shattered right wrist,
holding it on the edge?
DVP -- This one is a no-brainer. Mrs. Nellie Connally has confirmed
that her husband NEVER DROPPED HIS HAT during the entire drive to
Parkland Hospital. Many people feel this would be impossible if
Governor Connally's right wrist had been fractured the way it was
fractured. Obviously, those people are simply 100% wrong. Let's look:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/nellie.txt
An excerpt from the above-linked webpage:
"He had the hat in his hand when I pulled him over and crouched him
down and he was holding that hat up against him. He closed up that
wound that would've killed him before we got to the hospital." --
Nellie Connally; 1998
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CTer -- If you run Zapruder frames 350-355 back-and-forth successively
in stabilized form, watching Altgens' leg shadows on the curb area,
can you believe what you see? ... Z350, 352, and 354 have similar
angles, and the intervening 351 and 353 have the section on the
curbstone kinking back absurdly.
DVP -- First off, WHY would anyone have any desire at all to alter the
shadows of the people in the film? You surely don't believe in the
crazy notion (postulated by some CTers) that the Z-Film was "wholly
fabricated" (words from Jim Fetzer's crackpot book), do you?
Altgens' shadows don't look particularly skewed or crazy to me. The
zig-zag in the shadows is obviously occurring due to the blurred
motion pan of Mr. Zapruder. (Well, that seems "obvious" to me at any
rate....although, admittedly, I'm no photo expert.)
But I'll still never be able to reconcile the idea that some group of
film-fakers would have had a need to play around with the shadows in
the film....and especially around frames 350-355, which was well AFTER
anybody in the limousine had been shot. Makes no sense at all.
People who continually micro-examine the Zapruder Film for strange,
unexplainable "anomalies" (especially within parts of the film that
have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the VICTIMS in the limo) are just
asking to be laughed at, in my personal opinion.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2468ba452baf99c0
eca...@tx.rr.com
Something Fishy Here" gang: This one
has been posted by DVP before and I'm
so glad he posted it again.. If you
have any doubts re Brennan please
read this one..
Note to Ric who is too damned LLAAaaaazzy
to read long posts:
*************
Ric it's bad for your side.
*************
MR ;~D
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/th...
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> CTer -- Before the forensic exam, the gunshot wounds were rearranged
> by a covert team to prove one, lone assassin.
>
> DVP -- This stupid scenario is not even remotely possible, of course,
> and everybody knows it. And yet the Lifton-esque shit just keeps on a-
> comin' from certain conspiracy-loving quarters.
>
> I guess BOTH Barbara Eden and Elizabeth Montgomery must have aided the
> "covert team" of head-altering surgeons on 11/22/63, in order to
> (firstly) get the body off of Air Force One and into the hands of the
> proverbial and never-identified "covert team" of incredible
> surgeons...and (secondly) to be able to re-arrange JFK's head wounds
> so beautifully and perfectly so as to fool all the autopsists at
> Bethesda come 8 PM on the night of Nov. 22nd. (Humes, Finck, and
> Boswell are ALL rotten liars and military cover-up
> operatives...right?)
>
> Pure bunk.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/598f57a52bc3...
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2468ba452baf99c0