Shattering A Crazy Conspiracy Theory Re. Howard Brennan
David Von Pein
BELONGS)......
-----------------------------------------------------------------
A CONSPIRACY KOOK ("WALT") SAID --- He {Howard Brennan} DESCRIBED the
location where he saw the gunman aiming the rifle from the window, and
he did NOT describe the window on the EAST end of the sixth floor.
DVP (DAVID ROBERT VON PEIN; NOT A CONSPIRACY KOOK) --- This is total
nonsense, and anyone who reads all of Howard Brennan's testimony would
know that the CTer who wrote the above bullshit doesn't have the
slightest idea what he's talking about.
Brennan's testimony shows that Brennan saw a man (Lee Harvey Oswald)
in only ONE single window in the Texas School Book Depository on
11/22/63 -- and that window was the southeast corner window on the
sixth floor.
Any reasonable person who examines all of Brennan's Warren Commission
testimony would easily come to the conclusion that Brennan only saw a
man in the EAST-end window. And it's also easy to see that nobody was
manipulating Brennan's words, nor was David Belin preventing any "West
End" references from getting into the WC record.
But, just like almost all other conspiracy kooks who are charter
members of the popular "Anybody But Oswald" club, the CTer who wrote
the above remarks has no idea how to properly and objectively evaluate
physical evidence or witness testimony.
=====================================================
WALT --- Since David Belin did a good job of twisting Brennan's
testimony...
DVP --- Nobody is "twisting" Howard Brennan's testimony except a kook
named Walt. That's for damn sure.
Let's examine it more closely after having read through ALL of
Brennan's WC testimony (which I just now did)......
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brennan.htm
David W. Belin was in NO WAY trying to twist or manipulate Howard
Brennan's words during Brennan's WC session. That's obvious when you
read the transcript.
For, if Belin HAD been on a mission to "twist" Brennan's account of
the shooting (in order to keep any references to a WEST-END shooter
from entering the official record), would Belin have said this to Mr.
Brennan in such an OPEN-ENDED manner, which allows Brennan to say
anything he wants to say with regard any (supposed) WEST-SIDE
assassin?.....
BELIN: "Mr. Brennan, could you please tell the Commission what
happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw?"
And would Belin have been willing to dangle this hot question in front
of Brennan if Belin and the WC had wanted to hush up info re. any west-
end TSBD killer?.....
BELIN: "Did you see any other people in any other windows that you can
recollect?"
And here's yet another question that no idiot would have dared ask
Brennan if that person (Mr. Belin) had been wanting to choke off the
witness in some way.....
BELIN: "Now, after you saw the man--well, just tell what else you saw
during that afternoon."
And below we have still another example of Belin's reckless
questioning tactics (if he'd been wanting to keep a bunch of stuff out
of the record...because how in the heck did Belin know how Brennan
would respond to this question?).....
BELIN: "Would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw him
{the TSBD gunman} this last time?"
Below we have other indications that Howard Brennan was referring to
ONLY the southeast TSBD window.....
BRENNAN: "Spoke to Mr. Sorrels, and told him that those were the two
colored boys that was on the fifth floor, or on the next floor
underneath the man that fired the gun."
~~~~~~~~
BELIN: "Was the man that you saw in the window firing the rifle the
same man that you had seen earlier in the window, you said at least a
couple of times, first stepping up and then going back?"
BRENNAN: "Yes, sir."
BELIN: "About how far were you away from that window at the time you
saw him, Mr. Brennan?"
BRENNAN: "Well, at that time, I calculated 110 foot at an angle. But
closer surveillance I believe it will run close to 122 to 126 feet at
an angle."
~~~~~~~~
Notice the references to "THAT WINDOW" and "THE WINDOW" --- indicating
the ONLY window Brennan EVER refers to specifically throughout his
entire testimony....i.e., the SN/SE window on the 6th Floor.
~~~~~~~~
And then there's the "red pencil" demonstration done by Brennan on
CE482, which is a photo of the SN window, with Brennan marking the
approx. angle of the rifle he saw being fired FROM THAT EXACT WINDOW
(obviously)! .....
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce482.jpg
I guess Walt must think that Brennan marked a simulated rifle angle on
CE482 with a red pencil, even though Brennan knew that he was marking
the WRONG WINDOW! Right, Walt?.....
BELIN: "Now, I wonder if you would take on Exhibit 482, if you can
kind of mark the way the rifle was at the time you saw it. Here is a
red pencil. If you could put on Exhibit 482 the direction that you saw
the rifle pointing, sir."
BRENNAN: "I would say more at this angle. Maybe not as far out as
this."
BELIN: "You have put a line, and I have tried to make a little bit
darker line."
BRENNAN: "That is as close as I can get it."
BELIN: "This is on Exhibit 482--as to the angle at which you saw the
rifle. And you say perhaps it wasn't out of the window as far as this
line goes on Exhibit 482, is that correct?"
BRENNAN: "Right."
GERALD FORD: "That is the angle that you believe the rifle was
pointed?"
BRENNAN: "Yes."
ALLEN DULLES: "And that is from the area in the window from which the
rifle was pointing?"
BRENNAN: "Right."
~~~~~~~~
Please note that Brennan doesn't correct anyone on the Commission as
to CE482 being the WRONG WINDOW from where Howard had seen any gunman
firing a rifle.
And Brennan certainly had every opportunity to make such a correction
if one had been required. Obviously, none was required, because CE482
represented the exact window from which Brennan had seen Oswald firing
a weapon at President Kennedy.
And then we have these remarks made by Belin. (Is he lying his ass off
here?).....
BELIN: "What is the fact as to whether or not I told you what to say
or you yourself just told me what you wanted to tell me?"
BRENNAN: "You did not instruct me what to say at all. I told you in
the best words I could to explain exactly my movements and what
happened."
GERALD FORD: "And here today you have testified freely on your own?"
BRENNAN: "Right, I have."
~~~~~~~~
And then we get Allen Dulles asking Brennan the following loaded-full-
of-potential-dynamite question (if the WC had wanted to keep some
stuff out of the record, that is).....
DULLES: "Anything you would like to add?"
And then we can examine Howard Brennan's 11/22/63 affidavit, where we
can also find verbal indications of an EAST-end shooter (not WEST
end), when Brennan says this.....
BRENNAN: "In the east end of the building and the second row of
windows from the top I saw a man in this window. I had seen him before
the President's car arrived."
A little later in the same affidavit, we find.....
BRENNAN: "I then saw this man I have described in the window and he
was taking aim with a high-powered rifle."
Does Walt want the world to believe that when Brennan said "THE
WINDOW" in that last sentence above, Howard was REALLY referring to
the west end of the Depository, even though just a few sentences
earlier in the same affidavit he said "IN THE EAST END OF THE
BUILDING"?
~~~~~~~~
More useful tidbits from Brennan's WC session (with this being an
excellent question being asked by Mr. Belin, btw).....
BELIN: "You said you saw the man with the rifle on the sixth floor,
and then you said you saw some Negroes on the fifth floor."
BRENNAN: "Yes."
BELIN: "Did you get as good a look at the Negroes as you got at the
man with the rifle?"
BRENNAN: "Yes."
BELIN: "Did you feel that your recollection of the Negroes at that
time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle?"
BRENNAN: "Yes--at that time, it was."
~~~~~~~~
And then there's this regarding the issue of the color of the gunman's
clothing.....
BELIN: "Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man
with the rifle was wearing?"
BRENNAN: "No, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. I
mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words.
If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side."
~~~~~~~~
So, via the above words of Howard Brennan, the gunman could have been
wearing "light"-colored clothing...or "khaki"-colored clothing. But
there's the word "maybe" in there too. And that initial "no" to
Belin's question in the first place.
Plus -- Since we KNOW that Brennan saw the assassin (Oswald) through a
half-opened window on the southeast corner of the TSBD's 6th
Floor...and we also know that the windows in the TSBD were fairly
dirty on 11/22/63...I'm wondering if (just possibly) the "dirty"
status of the TSBD windows might have influenced the "dingy" remark
made by Howard Brennan above.
=====================================================
WALT --- Belin cleverly did not provide a photo that showed the entire
face of the TSBD as it appeared at 12:30 on 11/22/63. He gave Howard
Brennan photos that showed only windows on the upper east side,
forcing Brennan to use those photos to depict the events he witnessed.
DVP --- Oh sure. And Brennan, being the box of dumb rocks you must
think he was, decided to not say the following --- "Well, Mr. Belin,
this photograph doesn't depict the far-west-end window where I saw the
assassin shooting...but, what the fuck....I'll just pretend the
shooter was on the east end." --- right, Mr. Kook?
~LOL~
(And an even bigger: "LOL".)
:)
=====================================================
WALT --- If the truth be known, the gunman was probably planting the
spent shells when Brennan saw him.
DVP --- Yeah...and then these boobs decided they'd shoot from the
exact OPPOSITE end of the sixth floor from where the shells were
"planted", instead of merely using the pre-arranged patsy-creating SN
window.
Yeah, that makes sense .... if you're a Mega-Kook.
Plus -- There are Oswald's fresh prints on those SN boxes too...don't
forget. Were those being "planted" too? Or did the plotters just get
lucky with those prints?
=====================================================
WALT --- Belin twisted the events that happened BEFORE the shooting to
make it look like Brennan was talking about what he saw DURING the
shooting.
DVP --- And how was Belin supposed to prevent Brennan from using the
words "West End" or "The other end of the building is where I saw him
shoot from", etc.?
Belin just got lucky that the word "West" never escaped Brennan's lips
when Howard "DESCRIBED" the location within the TSBD where the
rifleman was located, huh?
=====================================================
WALT --- Brennan is saying that the shirt was a light-colored khaki
shirt; it could have been dingy white, and perhaps you know that dingy
white is a shade of WHITE.
DVP --- But khaki isn't. .... Kook.
=====================================================
WALT --- Early in his testimony Belin asked Brennan how he was dressed
that day, and Brennan said he was dressed in gray KHAKI work clothes.
So KHAKI is a type of material to Howard Brennan, not necessarily a
color.
DVP --- That must be why Brennan TWICE during his WC testimony utters
the specific word "color" immediately after uttering the word "khaki".
Right? But it's best if you just ignore those TWO times Brennan says
"khaki color".....
BRENNAN (Page 144): "...More of a khaki color."
BRENNAN (Page 160): "...And a khaki color."
=====================================================
WALT --- Now you admit the windows were dirty. So how did Brennan see
all of the details he DESCRIBED through TWO thicknesses of dirty
glass?
DVP --- During the shooting, Brennan no doubt saw Oswald crouching
behind the MC rifle BELOW THE LEVEL OF THE DIRTY WINDOWS, i.e.,
through the open bottom half of the SN window, even though Brennan was
of the false impression that Oswald was "standing".
But don't forget he ALSO thought the Negroes on the 5th Floor were
"standing" as well, which is equally (but consistently) as incorrect.
Now, quite obviously, while watching Oswald aim and fire the last
rifle shot, Brennan could have easily seen many of the details
regarding Oswald's general appearance.
But evidently to a kook like Walt ALL of the pertinent data re.
Oswald's clothes and appearance HAD to be witnessed through ONLY the
CLOSED (upper-half) of the SN window.
Go figure.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce482.jpg
=====================================================
WALT --- You're not really this obtuse....are you?!!
DVP --- No, I'm not. But you sure are. Obtuse, kooky, nutty, Oswald-
loving, evidence-skewing....you name it. You're it.
=====================================================
WALT --- We are in total agreement....Brennan was not lying.
DVP --- Yeah...Walt must think that Howard Brennan was merely
MISINTERPRETED when he gave his WC testimony....but not lying.
Brennan circled ONE SINGLE WINDOW on a Commission Exhibit where he saw
A MAN on the 6th Floor...not TWO windows. Just one. And that one
window was the SN window in the SE corner of the building.
Walt thinks that Brennan must have FORGOTTEN about seeing the gunman
in the WEST window DURING the shooting...which is THE most important
information (of course) given by Brennan during his testimony to the
WC. But Brennan never bothered to say this to Mr. Belin:
"Oh, by the way Mr. Belin, that window I circled in CE477 isn't where
I saw the gunman actually shooting from. No, I saw the man firing a
gun from this west-end window over here. Sorry, I didn't mean to
confuse you."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce477.jpg
Brennan saw the man/assassin (later positively IDed by Brennan as Lee
Harvey Oswald) in only ONE window on 11/22/63....that's obvious by his
testimony and by his WINDOW-CIRCLING actions on CE477....and that
window was the SN window on the southeast side of the TSBD.
Walt, being a revisionist CT kook, will continue to make up his own
unique brand of Assassination (Il)Logic (and made-up witness testimony
evidently) in order to promote his own forever-skewed idea that a
gunman was located on the WEST side of the 6th Floor of the Texas
School Book Depository at 12:30 on 11/22/63. (Even though, per Walt,
Oswald was going to be FRAMED AS THE LONE PATSY at a DIFFERENT window
in the building in the southeast corner. Go figure that crackpot pre-
assassination logic, huh?)
=====================================================
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/16b70728d9c8ecd4
=====================================================
RICLAND
> BEATING A STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORY INTO THE BACKWOODS (WHERE IT
> BELONGS)......
David, your presentation of this material was done so poorly, it makes
it all but impossible to read.
Moreover, as I understand it, the problem with Brennan's testimony is
the following:
1. It's inconsistent.
2. Of the 200 people in around Dealey Plaza, no one else saw what he
claimed to see.
3. His distance from the building and window was considerable so much so
that the likelihood he could positively ID a shooter partially hidden
by the window and gun stock is small.
4. He could not ID Oswald in a line-up.
And that's the way you present information, David.
ricland
David Von Pein
Better get glasses then. Nothing wrong with the above presentation.
It's just the way I wanted it. It's not hard to read in the least.
(It's a compilation of individual posts....placed all in one post. I
even IDed the players every step of the way. What do you need....a
road map?)
My main point was to show Walt for what everyone knows he is -- an
evidence-manipulator and a CTer who NEEDS a conspiracy at all costs in
the JFK case.
You can't tell me (honestly), Ric, that even YOU buy into Walt's nutty
"moving window" theory....with open-ended questions by Belin that
nobody would dare ask if the intent was to SHUT BRENNAN UP re. the
true location of a gunman in the TSBD?
Face it, Walt's INVENTED his theory to suit his CT needs.
MARK VII.
Walt
> BEATING A STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORY INTO THE BACKWOODS (WHERE IT
> BELONGS)......
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry I didn't see your post sooner Von Pea Brain or I would have
slapped you up side of you're tiny little head sooner with my reply.
>
> A CONSPIRACY KOOK ("WALT") SAID --- He {Howard Brennan} DESCRIBED the
> location where he saw the gunman aiming the rifle from the window, and
> he did NOT describe the window on the EAST end of the sixth floor.
>
DAVID ROBERT VON PEIN.... The very fact that you would use such a
overblown moniker is a excellent display of your arrogance and
elitism. You think of yourself as superior to anybody who would sign
their post "Pete" or "Walt" or "Bob" or "Luthier". It's very obvious
that you believe you are superior... but I think there are very few
who would agree with your arrogant stance. When I see your moniker I
immediately think of the actor Robert Vaughn, who usually played the
role of a haughty, arrogant, know it all, egotistical son-of bitch.
That's the mental image portrayed.
> DVP (DAVID ROBERT VON PEIN; NOT A CONSPIRACY KOOK) --- This is total
> nonsense, and anyone who reads all of Howard Brennan's testimony would
> know that the CTer who wrote the above bullshit doesn't have the
> slightest idea what he's talking about.
>
> Brennan's testimony shows that Brennan saw a man (Lee Harvey Oswald)
> in only ONE single window in the Texas School Book Depository on
> 11/22/63 -- and that window was the southeast corner window on the
> sixth floor.
>
> Any reasonable person who examines all of Brennan's Warren Commission
> testimony would easily come to the conclusion that Brennan only saw a
> man in the EAST-end window. And it's also easy to see that nobody was
> manipulating Brennan's words, nor was David Belin preventing any "West
> End" references from getting into the WC record.
OK, Mr "reasonable person" let's see how "reasonable you are ......
LOOK at CE 477 on page 62 of the W.R. It is a photo showing Howard
Brennan wearing a hard hat, sitting on the wall surrounding the
reflecting pool, on Houston street,across Elm steet from the TSBD. The
TSBD can be seen in the background. Notice wher Brennan is sitting. He
is facing NORTH toward the south face of the TSBD, so Houston street
will be on his right side or EAST of his position.
The sounds of the gun shots caused Brennan to look up toward the place
where he had earlier seen a man with a rifle. ( Other
witnesses also saw the man up there before the Limo turned left onto
Elm street) As he looked up he could see the man firing the rifle
toward the southwest from the window. or generally in the direction of
the triple underpass. Brennan said As I looked up....... I could see
all of the man's upper body, from his hips to the top of his head. He
was wearing a light colored shirt, possibly a dingy white color, and
trousers that were a shade lighter than his shirt. I could see about
85% of the rifle and I could see all of the barrel. He was standing,
and bracing the rifle against the vertical side of the window, as he
fired the rifle. I jumped down off from that wall and took cover to
put the concrete wall between me and that gunman. I ducked down on
the Houston street side or EAST side of that wall to protect myself
from the gunman who was to my WEST. If he had been firing from the
EAST end window where I had seen him before the motorcade arrived,
diving to the EAST side of that wall would have offered me no
protection at all. You can see from this picture ( CE 477) that I
would have still been in full view of that gunman. I would have had to
have jumped into the water of the reflecting pool and took refuge on
the south side of the wall if that gunman had fired from the window
where I saw him before the motorcade arrived.
I wrote an affidavit just an hour or so after the shooting and
in that affidavit I said that I was sure that I would be able to
identifiy that gunman if I ever saw him again. I remember clearly
that he was a young man in his early thirties, he probably weighed 165
to 175 pounds, I'd guess he was about 5'10" tall, and he was wearinf a
light colored khaki shirt and khaki trousers that were a shade lighter
than his shirt.
I saw Lee Oswald in a line up just a couple of hours after I wrote
that affidavit and he was dresed different ly than the gunman I'd
seen . I did not see the gunman in that line up.
OK, Mr. reasonable person.... Let's see your reasoning about what
Brennan said.
Walt
> "planted", instead of merely using ...
>
> read more ยป
David Von Pein
Walt
> Go home Walt. Your Oswald life-sized cutout needs polishing.
Oh no I'm not going home yet..... I'm having too much fun kicking yer
ass.
Walt
David Von Pein
This thread has totally trashed Walt's "BRENNAN WAS DESCRIBING THE
WEST-END WINDOW" bullshit from pillar to post (and back again)...and
here's what Wacky Walt comes back with....
"Oh no I'm not going home yet. I'm having too much fun kicking yer
ass."
It's all part of the wonderful world of Disney -- er, I mean "CT-
Kooks" .... i.e., part of their lovely "NOTHING IS WHAT IT SEEMS TO
BE" make-believe world of conspiracy. This includes not even realizing
(or dare admitting at any rate) when they (the kooks) have had their
own asses kicked seven ways to Sunday.
I've thoroughly trashed Walt's crackpot Brennan theory in the past
too, of course. This is just the latest time. And Walt still keeps
acting as if his theory remains erect with legs of cast-iron.
A delusional world must be heaven to some.
Bud
RICLAND wrote:
> David Von Pein wrote:
> > BEATING A STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORY INTO THE BACKWOODS (WHERE IT
> > BELONGS)......
>
>
> David, your presentation of this material was done so poorly, it makes
> it all but impossible to read.
Not to literate folks. It`s called supporting his contentions by
citing the evidence.
> Moreover, as I understand it, the problem with Brennan's testimony is
> the following:
The only problems kooks have with Brennan is that he implicates oz.
> 1. It's inconsistent.
With? Itself? Reality? Other things he said? The evidence?
> 2. Of the 200 people in around Dealey Plaza, no one else saw what he
> claimed to see.
But what he said was confirmed by physical evidence found where he
indicated.
> 3. His distance from the building and window was considerable so much so
> that the likelihood he could positively ID a shooter partially hidden
> by the window and gun stock is small.
Which means it`s possible for him to see what he said he saw.
> 4. He could not ID Oswald in a line-up.
Under oath, he said he could have, but declined for reasons of his
own.
> And that's the way you present information, David.
I hope DVP doesn`t adopt this shoddy method of presentation. We
have enough people just "saying" things already.
> ricland
Walt
> Go home Walt. Your Oswald life-sized cutout needs polishing.
Hmmmm .....I believe You may be developing the Roberto Duran
syndrom....No Mas!.... No Mas!
Walt