Humorous Mistake on Goethe Institute Poster
hanum...@gmail.com
Notice that the deferential Korean greeting in Hangeul, rendered in
Latin script as 'annyeong ha shim ni kha', is definitely upside
down...I make a point of showing this to anyone who is at least half
Korean.
I told the Institute about it, but despite what the picture suggests, I
wasn't nasty about it. I'm on their mailing list now to boot. :)
All those years of using Emacs have finally paid off, LOL
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
> http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5900/00002395mp.jpg
>
> Notice that the deferential Korean greeting in Hangeul, rendered in
> Latin script as 'annyeong ha shim ni kha', is definitely upside
> down...I make a point of showing this to anyone who is at least half
> Korean.
>
> I told the Institute about it, but despite what the picture suggests, I
> wasn't nasty about it. I'm on their mailing list now to boot. :)
And, if that Dobrý Den is supposed to be Czech, then the 'Den' should
not be capitalized.
>
> All those years of using Emacs have finally paid off, LOL
>
...unless one prefers vi :-)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
Paul J Kriha
news:e9524g$tq5$1...@ns.felk.cvut.cz...
> hanum...@gmail.com wrote:
> > http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5900/00002395mp.jpg
> >
> > Notice that the deferential Korean greeting in Hangeul, rendered in
> > Latin script as 'annyeong ha shim ni kha', is definitely upside
> > down...I make a point of showing this to anyone who is at least half
> > Korean.
> >
> > I told the Institute about it, but despite what the picture suggests, I
> > wasn't nasty about it. I'm on their mailing list now to boot. :)
>
> And, if that Dobrý Den is supposed to be Czech, then the 'Den' should
> not be capitalized.
What if 'Den' is the other person's name? :-))
pjk
Dylan Sung
<hanum...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152772462.1...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Perhaps they should stick a pin in the middle and spin it. At least it will
be the right way up some of the time.
Dyl.
hanum...@gmail.com
Paul J Kriha wrote:
> <garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk> wrote in message
> news:e9524g$tq5$1...@ns.felk.cvut.cz...
> > hanum...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5900/00002395mp.jpg
> > >
> > > Notice that the deferential Korean greeting in Hangeul, rendered in
> > > Latin script as 'annyeong ha shim ni kha', is definitely upside
> > > down...I make a point of showing this to anyone who is at least half
> > > Korean.
> > >
> > > I told the Institute about it, but despite what the picture suggests, I
> > > wasn't nasty about it. I'm on their mailing list now to boot. :)
> >
> > And, if that Dobrý Den is supposed to be Czech, then the 'Den' should
> > not be capitalized.
>
> What if 'Den' is the other person's name? :-))
Anyway, what is the origin of all these greetings, which seem very
similar? Dobry den, dobar dan, etc...the only one I really knew was the
aforementioned Czech greeting; I suppose the remainder also belong to
Slavic languages spoken in Eastern Europe?
hanum...@gmail.com
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk wrote:
> >
> > All those years of using Emacs have finally paid off, LOL
> >
>
> ...unless one prefers vi :-)
Don't make me dig out my eyes with a spoon. :)
Actually, my journey into Unix, the best of the bagbiting loser
operating systems we have today, began when I used some freeware clone
of vi on DOS. I guess it still has a place in my heart. But it still
doesn't have that nifty HELLO file.
One of the reasons I ended up going to Emacs was the superior support
for Indic text (among others) and a better extension language than in
Vim. Vim 7.x seems to have fixed a lot of that, but Emacs still wins
because of inertia.
In experimenting with Java and finding a decent coding editor with
shallow learning curve for someone whom I will be teaching to program,
I stumbled on jEdit and found it to be pretty sweet. Who knows, I might
just drop out of the vi vs. Emacs war altogether...
(And this person I am teaching happens to be half-Korean no less!!!)
Paul J Kriha
<hanum...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152851491.2...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>Paul J Kriha wrote:
>> <garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk> wrote in message
>> news:e9524g$tq5$1...@ns.felk.cvut.cz...
>> > hanum...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5900/00002395mp.jpg
>> > >
>> > > Notice that the deferential Korean greeting in Hangeul, rendered in
>> > > Latin script as 'annyeong ha shim ni kha', is definitely upside
>> > > down...I make a point of showing this to anyone who is at least half
>> > > Korean.
>> > >
>> > > I told the Institute about it, but despite what the picture suggests, I
>> > > wasn't nasty about it. I'm on their mailing list now to boot. :)
>> >
>> > not be capitalized.
>>
>> What if 'Den' is the other person's name? :-))
>
>Anyway, what is the origin of all these greetings, which seem very
>similar? Dobry den, dobar dan, etc...the only one I really knew was the
>aforementioned Czech greeting; I suppose the remainder also belong to
>Slavic languages spoken in Eastern Europe?
No, it's a hotch-potch of different languages, only some of which
are European. Only two of them are from Eastern Europe.
Four of them are "good day"s in various Slavic languages, i.e.
Polish, Bulgarian(?), Czech, and Russian.
I am not sure what you mean by "origin" when you ask about
the origins of those greetings. Would their origins be much different
from the origin of English "good day"?
BTW,
"dobrı" (good) is a masculine singular adjective in nominative declension.
"den" (day) is a masculine singular noun in nominative.
It's a short version of "Pr^eji va'm dobry' den", i.e. "I wish you good day".
pjk
hanum...@gmail.com
Paul J Kriha wrote:
> <hanum...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1152851491.2...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> >Paul J Kriha wrote:
> >> <garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk> wrote in message
> >> news:e9524g$tq5$1...@ns.felk.cvut.cz...
> >> > hanum...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> > > http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5900/00002395mp.jpg
> >> > >
> >> > > Notice that the deferential Korean greeting in Hangeul, rendered in
> >> > > Latin script as 'annyeong ha shim ni kha', is definitely upside
> >> > > down...I make a point of showing this to anyone who is at least half
> >> > > Korean.
> >> > >
> >> > > I told the Institute about it, but despite what the picture suggests, I
> >> > > wasn't nasty about it. I'm on their mailing list now to boot. :)
> >> >
> >> > not be capitalized.
> >>
> >> What if 'Den' is the other person's name? :-))
> >
> >Anyway, what is the origin of all these greetings, which seem very
> >similar? Dobry den, dobar dan, etc...the only one I really knew was the
> >aforementioned Czech greeting; I suppose the remainder also belong to
> >Slavic languages spoken in Eastern Europe?
>
> No, it's a hotch-potch of different languages, only some of which
> are European. Only two of them are from Eastern Europe.
> Four of them are "good day"s in various Slavic languages, i.e.
> Polish, Bulgarian(?), Czech, and Russian.
>
> I am not sure what you mean by "origin" when you ask about
> the origins of those greetings. Would their origins be much different
> from the origin of English "good day"?
Well, compare to 'Guten Tag' (German) and 'Goeden dag' (Dutch). I have
an idea of the common source of these greetings, knowing about the
history of Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, etc. but I was just
wondering if there was any particular tribe or group of tribes,
whathaveyou, that caused greetings like 'Dobry den' to be shared among
a number of languages, mostly Slavic it would seem.
Marco Pagliero
Paul J Kriha schrieb:
> No, it's a hotch-potch of different languages, only some of which
> are European. Only two of them are from Eastern Europe.
> Four of them are "good day"s in various Slavic languages, i.e.
> Polish, Bulgarian(?), Czech, and Russian.
Which two of them are from Eastern Europe?
> I am not sure what you mean by "origin" when you ask about
> the origins of those greetings. Would their origins be much different
> from the origin of English "good day"?
"Gruezi" has no relation with "Day" but with "Greetings" instead.
I believe in Arabic they say "Peace" or "God with you" and in Swaeli
"(Good) business".
Maybe would hanumiz...@gmail.com kindly translate literally 'annyeong
ha shim ni kha'?
> It's a short version of "Pr^eji va'm dobry' den", i.e. "I wish you good day".
Is this "dobry' den" in accusative?
Thanks
Marco P
John Atkinson
"Marco Pagliero" <mar...@web.de> wrote...
>
> Paul J Kriha schrieb:
>
>> No, it's a hotch-potch of different languages, only some of which
>> are European. Only two of them are from Eastern Europe.
>> Four of them are "good day"s in various Slavic languages, i.e.
>> Polish, Bulgarian(?), Czech, and Russian.
> Which two of them are from Eastern Europe?
>
>> I am not sure what you mean by "origin" when you ask about
>> the origins of those greetings. Would their origins be much different
>> from the origin of English "good day"?
No different at all.
Since calques of "Good day" are widespread throughout Europe, and hardly
known in non-european languages AFAIK, it must have started at one
particular place and time and spread from there. What's the oldest known
use of the form, and which language was it?
> "Gruezi" has no relation with "Day" but with "Greetings" instead.
> I believe in Arabic they say "Peace" or "God with you" and in Swaeli
> "(Good) business".
No. In Swahili the standard greeting is "Hujambo?" "Jambo" by itself could
be translated as "business", or, more accurately, "matter of concern", but
"hu-" is the second person negative prefix, so "Hujambo?" is a question
meaning something like "There's nothing wrong with you, I hope?", or "No
hassles?" Standard reply is "Sijambo", "Nothing wrong with me".
Non-first-language speakers in East Africa, especially wazungu, usually
abbreviate the greeting to "Jambo", which is presumably what you've heard,
and misinterpreted.
"Salamu" (from arabic) also occurs as a greeting in Swahili. More formal,
it's often used in the opening paragraph of letters.
John.
Marco Pagliero
John Atkinson schrieb:
> Since calques of "Good day" are widespread throughout Europe, and hardly
> known in non-european languages AFAIK, it must have started at one
> particular place and time and spread from there. What's the oldest known
> use of the form, and which language was it?
I remember in classic latin they said "Ave atque vale", but this was
the opening of a formal letter. I have no idea if they said "Bona die"
in the street.
Also I don't know if "Kalimera" was already used in classical time.
> Non-first-language speakers in East Africa, especially wazungu, usually
> abbreviate the greeting to "Jambo", which is presumably what you've heard,
> and misinterpreted.
Yes. I learnt this "Jambo" from a girl friend who had spent two years
in Lamu. This is in the East.
Gruezli
Marco
Paul J Kriha
>Paul J Kriha wrote:
>> <hanum...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1152851491.2...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> >Paul J Kriha wrote:
>> >> <garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk> wrote in message
>> >> news:e9524g$tq5$1...@ns.felk.cvut.cz...
>> >> > hanum...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> > > http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5900/00002395mp.jpg
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Notice that the deferential Korean greeting in Hangeul, rendered in
>> >> > > Latin script as 'annyeong ha shim ni kha', is definitely upside
>> >> > > down...I make a point of showing this to anyone who is at least half
>> >> > > Korean.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I told the Institute about it, but despite what the picture suggests, I
>> >> > > wasn't nasty about it. I'm on their mailing list now to boot. :)
>> >> >
>> >> > not be capitalized.
>> >>
>> >> What if 'Den' is the other person's name? :-))
>> >
>> >Anyway, what is the origin of all these greetings, which seem very
>> >similar? Dobry den, dobar dan, etc...the only one I really knew was the
>> >aforementioned Czech greeting; I suppose the remainder also belong to
>> >Slavic languages spoken in Eastern Europe?
>>
>> No, it's a hotch-potch of different languages, only some of which
>> are European. Only two of them are from Eastern Europe.
>> Four of them are "good day"s in various Slavic languages, i.e.
>> Polish, Bulgarian(?), Czech, and Russian.
>>
>> I am not sure what you mean by "origin" when you ask about
>> the origins of those greetings. Would their origins be much different
>> from the origin of English "good day"?
>
>Well, compare to 'Guten Tag' (German) and 'Goeden dag' (Dutch). I have
>an idea of the common source of these greetings, knowing about the
>history of Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, etc. but I was just
>wondering if there was any particular tribe or group of tribes,
>whathaveyou, that caused greetings like 'Dobry den' to be shared among
>a number of languages, mostly Slavic it would seem.
Tribe? Group of tribes? I like that... :-)
Surely, that particular greeting with all it's European calques
has been spread around by the early Christian church.
I guess, the only question of interest is whether they
picked up an existing Latin, Greek, or some other language
greeting, whether it's based on some quotation from the
Scriptures, or whether they just made it up.
I believe, by about 800-900 AD, the longer, formal versions
of it were already well spread around Europe.
pjk
Paul J Kriha
Marco Pagliero <mar...@web.de> wrote in message
news:1152884403.5...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Paul J Kriha schrieb:
>
> > No, it's a hotch-potch of different languages, only some of which
> > are European. Only two of them are from Eastern Europe.
> > Four of them are "good day"s in various Slavic languages, i.e.
> > Polish, Bulgarian(?), Czech, and Russian.
>
> Which two of them are from Eastern Europe?
I am confused. Is this a joke of some kind? :-)
From your email address and your name I assume that you
are a European, yet you pretend not to know which countries
are traditionally regarded as part of Western Europe,
Northern Europe, Central Europe, Southern Europe, and
Eastern Europe.
If you make a rule-of-thumb assumption that Polish is
spoken mostly in Poland, Bulgarian in Bulgaria, Czech
in Czech Republic, and Russian in Russia you can then
easily locate these countries on the map of Europe.
> > I am not sure what you mean by "origin" when you ask about
> > the origins of those greetings. Would their origins be much different
> > from the origin of English "good day"?
>
> "Gruezi" has no relation with "Day" but with "Greetings" instead.
> I believe in Arabic they say "Peace" or "God with you" and in Swaeli
> "(Good) business".
> Maybe would hanumiz...@gmail.com kindly translate literally 'annyeong
> ha shim ni kha'?
I was fishing for an explanation of your term "origin".
I wasn't sure if you meant linguistic origins, political origins,
religious origins, or what?
> > It's a short version of "Pr^eji va'm dobry' den", i.e. "I wish you good day".
>
> Is this "dobry' den" in accusative?
Yes, correct, it actually is an accusative.
By co-incidence (I realize some slavicists may correct me,
that it's no co-incidence at all), inanimate masculine accusative
happens to be identical to the nominative.
In "Pr^eji va'm dobry' den" it obviously is an accusative,
but it is not so obvious whether it is an accusative or
nominative in "Dobry' den".
Another, perhaps older traditional versions are
"Pr^eji va'm dobre'ho dne" and "Dobrého dne pr^eji",
where "dobre'ho dne" could be analyzed as inanimate
genitive or animate accusative.
In relatively recent modern times, the animate forms have
been strictly limited to biologically animate objects.
There are numerous examples of animate forms used for
inanimate objects in the Old Czech poetry.
My guess(!) is, that "dobre'ho dne" was an animate accusative.
I hazzard another guess, and it is that treating an inanimate
object as animate increased it's status.
pjk
> Thanks
> Marco P
Christian Weisgerber
> > Which two of them are from Eastern Europe?
>
> I am confused. Is this a joke of some kind? :-)
> From your email address and your name I assume that you
> are a European, yet you pretend not to know which countries
> are traditionally regarded as part of Western Europe,
> Northern Europe, Central Europe, Southern Europe, and
> Eastern Europe.
Central Europe, at least, is indeed problematic.
> If you make a rule-of-thumb assumption that Polish is
> spoken mostly in Poland, Bulgarian in Bulgaria, Czech
> in Czech Republic, and Russian in Russia you can then
> easily locate these countries on the map of Europe.
Well, a great many Germans would consider all of these countries
to be in Eastern Europe and would probably be quite surprised to
learn that Poles and Czechs understand themselves as Central
Europeans.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Aidan Kehoe
Ar an cúigiú lá déag de mí Iúil, scríobh Christian Weisgerber:
> > If you make a rule-of-thumb assumption that Polish is
> > spoken mostly in Poland, Bulgarian in Bulgaria, Czech
> > in Czech Republic, and Russian in Russia you can then
> > easily locate these countries on the map of Europe.
>
> Well, a great many Germans would consider all of these countries
> to be in Eastern Europe and would probably be quite surprised to
> learn that Poles and Czechs understand themselves as Central
> Europeans.
Ditto lots of Irish and British, but that doesn’t make them right. (Would
Bohemia in the context of the Austro-Hungarian Empire be Eastern
European to those Germans?)
--
Santa Maradona, priez pour moi!
Paul J Kriha
news:e9ampd$15qj$1...@kemoauc.mips.inka.de...
> Paul J Kriha <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > > Which two of them are from Eastern Europe?
> >
> > I am confused. Is this a joke of some kind? :-)
> > From your email address and your name I assume that you
> > are a European, yet you pretend not to know which countries
> > are traditionally regarded as part of Western Europe,
> > Northern Europe, Central Europe, Southern Europe, and
> > Eastern Europe.
>
> Central Europe, at least, is indeed problematic.
Dead centre of gravity of Europe with all its islands is some
40km south of Prague. All Germans I know believe German
Federal Republic is a Central European power.
> > If you make a rule-of-thumb assumption that Polish is
> > spoken mostly in Poland, Bulgarian in Bulgaria, Czech
> > in Czech Republic, and Russian in Russia you can then
> > easily locate these countries on the map of Europe.
>
> Well, a great many Germans would consider all of these countries
> to be in Eastern Europe and would probably be quite surprised to
> learn that Poles and Czechs understand themselves as Central
> Europeans.
Those great many Germans must be elderly people using
Cold War political newspaper terminology which was in vogue
for couple score years in the last century.
The WE, NE, CE, SE, and EE are geographical, not political,
terms that have been in common use for centuries.
How many Austrians, would you say Christian, believe they
live in Eastern Europe? Are there also great many Germans
who'd consider Austria to be in Eastern Europe.
Is Berlin still in Eastern Europe?
pjk
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
Ο "Christian Weisgerber" <na...@mips.inka.de> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
news:e9ampd$15qj$1...@kemoauc.mips.inka.de...
Land sagen,oder ein Ost-Europa Land?Das ist vielleicht eine Konvention.
Vielleicht mit Lander wie Osterreich ist das sicher.Ist die Turkei
schlie?lich ein Europaisches Land, und gehort damit zum EU, oder nicht?
But would you call the old East Germany East Europe then, but now Central
Europe?This might be a convention.Maybe with countries like Austria this is
certain.Is Turkey at least a European country, and can join the EU, or not?
--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering,freelance electrician
542nd mechanized infantry batallion
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
Paul J Kriha
Aidan Kehoe <keh...@parhasard.net> wrote in message news:17592.64006....@parhasard.net...
Apart from the period of Cold War, the traditional cultural
division between West and East has roughly following
the border between the Western Catholic&Protestant church
and Eastern Orthodox church. Which very roughly survives
till today as border between latin and cyrillic scripts. :-)
pjk
al-waTnî
<paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
><hanum...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1152851491.2...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>>Paul J Kriha wrote:
>>> <garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk> wrote in message
>>> news:e9524g$tq5$1...@ns.felk.cvut.cz...
>>> > hanum...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> > > http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5900/00002395mp.jpg
>>> > >
>>> > > Notice that the deferential Korean greeting in Hangeul, rendered in
>>> > > Latin script as 'annyeong ha shim ni kha', is definitely upside
>>> > > down...I make a point of showing this to anyone who is at least half
>>> > > Korean.
>>> > >
>>> > > I told the Institute about it, but despite what the picture suggests, I
>>> > > wasn't nasty about it. I'm on their mailing list now to boot. :)
>>> >
>>> > And, if that Dobrý Den is supposed to be Czech, then the 'Den' should
>>> > not be capitalized.
>>>
>>> What if 'Den' is the other person's name? :-))
>>
>>Anyway, what is the origin of all these greetings, which seem very
>>similar? Dobry den, dobar dan, etc...the only one I really knew was the
>>aforementioned Czech greeting; I suppose the remainder also belong to
>>Slavic languages spoken in Eastern Europe?
>
>No, it's a hotch-potch of different languages, only some of which
>are European. Only two of them are from Eastern Europe.
>Four of them are "good day"s in various Slavic languages, i.e.
>Polish, Bulgarian(?), Czech, and Russian.
>
>I am not sure what you mean by "origin" when you ask about
>the origins of those greetings. Would their origins be much different
>from the origin of English "good day"?
>
>BTW,
>"dobrý" (good) is a masculine singular adjective in nominative declension.
>"den" (day) is a masculine singular noun in nominative.
>It's a short version of "Pr^eji va'm dobry' den", i.e. "I wish you good day".
>
>pjk
>
The words 'dobrý den' ARE NOT 'masculine singular adjective in
nominative declension' as you say. The are the *direct complement* of
'Pr^eji', and therefor in the accusative, even if this does not show
in Czech, since accusative coincides with nomitative for inanimated
masculine singular nouns. They are in the accusative as are 'guten
Tag' in German, where accusative is differenciated form nominative in
masculine singular nouns. So goes Czech.
aW
al-waTnî
<paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote in message
>news:e9ampd$15qj$1...@kemoauc.mips.inka.de...
>> Paul J Kriha <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>> > > Which two of them are from Eastern Europe?
>> >
>> > I am confused. Is this a joke of some kind? :-)
>> > From your email address and your name I assume that you
>> > are a European, yet you pretend not to know which countries
>> > are traditionally regarded as part of Western Europe,
>> > Northern Europe, Central Europe, Southern Europe, and
>> > Eastern Europe.
>>
>> Central Europe, at least, is indeed problematic.
>
>Dead centre of gravity of Europe with all its islands is some
>40km south of Prague. All Germans I know believe German
>Federal Republic is a Central European power.
>
First define Europe if you want to find its centre of gravity.
aW
mb
The vast majority of non-German Europe (and possibly other places) also
does just that (including some German-speaking).
Bart Mathias
> [...]
> "Gruezi" has no relation with "Day" but with "Greetings" instead.
> I believe in Arabic they say "Peace" or "God with you" and in Swaeli
> "(Good) business".
> Maybe would hanumiz...@gmail.com kindly translate literally 'annyeong
> ha shim ni kha'?
Since he hasn't (by the way, I hope "Hanamizzle" isn't a play on
Japanese), I will offer a tentative free translation of
"annyeonghasimnikka (Yale: annyenghasipnikka)": "Is the world treating
you well, Sir or Ma'am as the case may be?"
It's the question form of a respectful adjective based on a Chinese noun
(Koreanized as "annye(o)ng") meaning "(public) peace, tranquility."
Rather different from most of the others.
Bart Mathias
Paul J Kriha
al-waTnî <al-w...@bellenette.ca> wrote in message
news:o7cib2lebmldjhanj...@4ax.com...
Which is more-or-less what I said about the long version
in the yesterday's append number 1152772462.168714.120740.
pjk
Joachim Pense
That's a consequence of the Iron Curtain, of course, which introduced
a now two-part division east/west. The old three-part division
east-middle-west became largely useless; and now, if you want to
re-introduce "middle", the middle is of course where the old division
line was, that is, Germany.
I once read that the "geographical" center of Europe (I don't know by
which exact definition of "center" this was derived, though) was
somewhere in Lithuania. I think most of the Germans you mention (me
included) would look for that point somewhere in south-western Poland.
Joachim
Paul J Kriha
Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote in message
news:xv5aqlz9hkk6$.1bpwzmfrwkt0a$.dlg@40tude.net...
Here are the DIY instructions for establishing the dead
centre of gravity of Europe:
First you have to settle the perennial question of exactly
what is and what isn't part of Europe. Then you make
a precise cutouts of Europe with all its islands and to
find where the centre is you try to balance it on a point
of a pin. :-)
You have to be careful with what territory you include.
Small changes around the fringes of Europe will have
noticeable influence. For example, which little islands in
the Atlantic and Northern Sea "belong" to Europe, where
do you exactly draw the border in Caucasus, do you or
don't you include the little bulge around Yekaterinburg
which seems to be on the wrong side of Urals, etc.
Then you will have difficult job of joining all the cutouts
of zillions of islands together with zero-weight material.
You might decide to represent it notionally on a computer
and let a computer program calculate the centre of
gravity for you.
> was somewhere in Lithuania. I think most of the Germans you mention (me
> included) would look for that point somewhere in south-western Poland.
All you need is to look at the map to see that it couldn't
possibly be anywhere in Lithuania. The south-western Poland
is much more likely. In the high school I was taught it was
somewhere in Bohemia, south of Prague.
You'd find that the today's German-Polish border, Bohemia,
and Austria are in the middle geographical Central Europe.
pjk
Oliver Cromm
> Ï "Christian Weisgerber" <na...@mips.inka.de> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
Would this line make sense once you declared what character set was
intended?
>> Paul J Kriha <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>>> > Which two of them are from Eastern Europe?
>>>
>>> I am confused. Is this a joke of some kind? :-)
>>> From your email address and your name I assume that you
>>> are a European, yet you pretend not to know which countries
>>> are traditionally regarded as part of Western Europe,
>>> Northern Europe, Central Europe, Southern Europe, and
>>> Eastern Europe.
I don't think I was taught that at school (in the 70s). And it's not
only Central Europe that didn't exist as a concept at that time; I would
also hesitate where to put Portugal or Bulgaria, when SW and SE aren't
options.
>> Central Europe, at least, is indeed problematic.
>>
>>> If you make a rule-of-thumb assumption that Polish is
>>> spoken mostly in Poland, Bulgarian in Bulgaria, Czech
>>> in Czech Republic, and Russian in Russia you can then
>>> easily locate these countries on the map of Europe.
>>
>> Well, a great many Germans would consider all of these countries
>> to be in Eastern Europe and would probably be quite surprised to
>> learn that Poles and Czechs understand themselves as Central
>> Europeans.
Not only that - sometimes, as a test, I declare on Usenet that Germany
is culturally nearer to Poland and Czechia than to France; you can be
sure that very soon, someone will reject this idea, strongly.
> Aber wurde man die ehemalige DDR bzw.Ostdeutschland ein Mitteleuropaisches
> Land sagen,oder ein Ost-Europa Land?
In der Zeit des kalten Krieges gehörte die DDR zum Ostblock, aber
"Osteuropa" hätte ich in diesem Fall nicht gesagt. Was die *ehemalige*
DDR betrifft, würde man in viele politische Fettnäpfe treten, wenn man
sie zu einem anderen Teil zählen würde als Westdeutschland.
> Is Turkey at least a European country, and can join the EU, or not?
No *geographical* obstacle to that.
--
Oliver C.
Joachim Pense
I wasn't sure if that "center" was the center of gravity or just the
center of the rightangle defined by the extreme values of longitudes
and latitudes, and how the islands were taken into account etc. And I
didn't bother to check. BTW, I now recall that remark was in the
German Edition of "Moskau News" that existed for a few years after
'89.
> First you have to settle the perennial question of exactly
> what is and what isn't part of Europe. Then you make
> a precise cutouts of Europe with all its islands and to
> find where the centre is you try to balance it on a point
> of a pin. :-)
Yes.
>
> You have to be careful with what territory you include.
> Small changes around the fringes of Europe will have
> noticeable influence. For example, which little islands in
> the Atlantic and Northern Sea "belong" to Europe, where
> do you exactly draw the border in Caucasus, do you or
> don't you include the little bulge around Yekaterinburg
> which seems to be on the wrong side of Urals, etc.
>
> Then you will have difficult job of joining all the cutouts
> of zillions of islands together with zero-weight material.
> You might decide to represent it notionally on a computer
> and let a computer program calculate the centre of
> gravity for you.
>
>> was somewhere in Lithuania. I think most of the Germans you mention (me
>> included) would look for that point somewhere in south-western Poland.
>
> All you need is to look at the map to see that it couldn't
> possibly be anywhere in Lithuania. The south-western Poland
> is much more likely. In the high school I was taught it was
> somewhere in Bohemia, south of Prague.
>
Really? Well, if you calculate the center of gravity, then this might
hold. If you just look at longitudes and latitudes, it'll probably
depend on the question if they forgot to include Iceland. (Should it
even be included?). But the center of gravity is of course a much
better definition.
> You'd find that the today's German-Polish border, Bohemia,
> and Austria are in the middle geographical Central Europe.
>
My bottom line: There goes a good party remark.
Joachim
Joachim Pense
> Not only that - sometimes, as a test, I declare on Usenet that Germany
> is culturally nearer to Poland and Czechia than to France; you can be
> sure that very soon, someone will reject this idea, strongly.
>
I don't know about Poland. But my various experiences with Chech and
French people at work support your theory.
>
>> Is Turkey at least a European country, and can join the EU, or not?
>
> No *geographical* obstacle to that.
Turkey is Little Asia, which was a substantial contributor to the
European culture.
(Apart from that, let me do an OT remark: you have an Islamic nation
with a laicistic constituation that really and actively desires to
join the European club instead of becoming yet another center of
theocratic craze in the area - it sounds just stupid in my ears to
miss that opportunity and say "no".)
Joachim
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
? "Oliver Cromm" <lispa...@internet.uqam.ca> ?????? ??? ??????
news:1apm3to3...@ocromm.my-fqdn.de...
> Tzortzakakis Dimitrios wrote:
>
> > Ï "Christian Weisgerber" <na...@mips.inka.de> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
>
> Would this line make sense once you declared what character set was
> intended?
>
sig...@binet.is
Joachim Pense wrote:
> > All you need is to look at the map to see that it couldn't
> > possibly be anywhere in Lithuania. The south-western Poland
> > is much more likely. In the high school I was taught it was
> > somewhere in Bohemia, south of Prague.
> >
>
> Really? Well, if you calculate the center of gravity, then this might
> hold. If you just look at longitudes and latitudes, it'll probably
> depend on the question if they forgot to include Iceland. (Should it
> even be included?).
Yes, Iceland is always included.
Paul J Kriha
Oliver Cromm <lispa...@internet.uqam.ca> wrote in message
news:1apm3to3...@ocromm.my-fqdn.de...
> Tzortzakakis Dimitrios wrote:
>
> > Ï "Christian Weisgerber" <na...@mips.inka.de> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
>
> Would this line make sense once you declared what character set was
> intended?
He seems to be using trn, so it should be possible for him
to include "Content-Type" and "charset" parameters in the
headers of his posts.
> >> Paul J Kriha <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> >>
> >>> > Which two of them are from Eastern Europe?
> >>>
> >>> I am confused. Is this a joke of some kind? :-)
> >>> From your email address and your name I assume that you
> >>> are a European, yet you pretend not to know which countries
> >>> are traditionally regarded as part of Western Europe,
> >>> Northern Europe, Central Europe, Southern Europe, and
> >>> Eastern Europe.
>
> I don't think I was taught that at school (in the 70s). And it's not
> only Central Europe that didn't exist as a concept at that time; I would
The concept existed in literature, especially geographically orientated
literature, since medieval times. You may not have been aware of
it or have heard it in your school but you cannot say it didn't exist.
> also hesitate where to put Portugal or Bulgaria, when SW and SE aren't
> options.
Perhaps Portugese and Bulgarian natives might have some
reasoned opinion about it. :-)
> >> Central Europe, at least, is indeed problematic.
> >>
> >>> If you make a rule-of-thumb assumption that Polish is
> >>> spoken mostly in Poland, Bulgarian in Bulgaria, Czech
> >>> in Czech Republic, and Russian in Russia you can then
> >>> easily locate these countries on the map of Europe.
> >>
> >> Well, a great many Germans would consider all of these countries
> >> to be in Eastern Europe and would probably be quite surprised to
> >> learn that Poles and Czechs understand themselves as Central
> >> Europeans.
>
> Not only that - sometimes, as a test, I declare on Usenet that Germany
> is culturally nearer to Poland and Czechia than to France; you can be
> sure that very soon, someone will reject this idea, strongly.
>
> > Aber wurde man die ehemalige DDR bzw.Ostdeutschland ein Mitteleuropaisches
> > Land sagen,oder ein Ost-Europa Land?
>
> In der Zeit des kalten Krieges gehörte die DDR zum Ostblock, aber
> "Osteuropa" hätte ich in diesem Fall nicht gesagt. Was die *ehemalige*
> DDR betrifft, würde man in viele politische Fettnäpfe treten, wenn man
> sie zu einem anderen Teil zählen würde als Westdeutschland.
Agreed.
I'd also say that when one talks about geographical locations
in Europe one shouldn't let the terminology get polluted with
political terms especially not the ones from the Cold War or Nazi eras.
pjk
Paul J Kriha
> Oliver Cromm <lispa...@internet.uqam.ca> wrote in message
> news:1apm3to3...@ocromm.my-fqdn.de...
> > Tzortzakakis Dimitrios wrote:
> >
> > intended?
>
> He seems to be using trn, so it should be possible for him
> to include "Content-Type" and "charset" parameters in the
> headers of his posts.
Correction.
Sorry, I was looking at Christian's headers instead of Tzortzakakis'.
I believe if Tzortzakakis managed to include the explicit
definitions of "Content-Type" and "charset" parameters in his
post's headers the recipients' newsreaders wouldn't apply
their various default settings and consequently misinterpret
all Greek characters (i.e. above 127 ASCII value).
Generally speaking, if somebody uses non-standard-ASCII
characters it is his responsibility(duty?) to make sure the
headers contain the correct charset definitions.
pjk
Paul J Kriha
> Am Mon, 17 Jul 2006 00:38:28 +1200 schrieb Paul J Kriha:
> > Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote in message
> > news:xv5aqlz9hkk6$.1bpwzmfrwkt0a$.dlg@40tude.net...
> >> I once read that the "geographical" center of Europe (I don't know by
> >> which exact definition of "center" this was derived, though)
> >
> > Here are the DIY instructions for establishing the dead
> > centre of gravity of Europe:
>
> I wasn't sure if that "center" was the center of gravity or just the
> center of the rightangle defined by the extreme values of longitudes
> and latitudes, and how the islands were taken into account etc.
Oh I see what you mean. I haven't even thought of that particular
method of averaging the four extreme values of longitude and latitude.
Not surprisingly the Czech school books describe the method
of calculating the dead centre as the centre of gravity.
As if having it in your backyard was of any cultural value. :-)
Myself, I would employ a slightly different method designed
to discount heavy influence exerted by small outlining territories.
The East-West-centre line (i.e. the line running North to South)
is where there is equal area of land to the East of it as there is
to the West, no matter how far or close from the line it is.
Similarly, the North-South-centre line is where there is exactly
the same land area to the North of it as there is to the South,
regardless of the distance from it.
I have no idea where the dead centre calculated this way
would be. Perhaps the compact chunky Russia before the
Urals would shift the centre a little distance farther to the East.
pjk
I looked up the extreme latitudes and longitudes in my atlas.
West coast of Iceland gave me approx 24 degrees west, Urals sit
around 60 degrees east, northern tip of Sweden roughly at 71
degrees north and south coast of Crete sits around 35 degrees
north. This gave me a point somewhere between Poznan and
Bydgoszcz, i.e. West Poland.
Even with Island included, this method seems to indicate
a dead centre point farther East and North than does
the centre of gravity method.
pjk
sig...@binet.is
Paul J Kriha wrote:
> >
> > Really? Well, if you calculate the center of gravity, then this might
> > hold. If you just look at longitudes and latitudes, it'll probably
> > depend on the question if they forgot to include Iceland. (Should it
> > even be included?).
>
> I looked up the extreme latitudes and longitudes in my atlas.
> West coast of Iceland gave me approx 24 degrees west, Urals sit
> around 60 degrees east, northern tip of Sweden roughly at 71
> degrees north and south coast of Crete sits around 35 degrees
> north.
Norway extends to the north of Sweden and the islands of Spitsbergen
and Novaya Zemlya are in Europe as well.
Andreas Prilop
> Generally speaking, if somebody uses non-standard-ASCII
> characters
What are "non-standard-ASCII characters"?
> it is his responsibility(duty?) to make sure the
> headers contain the correct charset definitions.
Perhaps you mean "non-ASCII characters"?
--
Netscape 3.04 does everything I need, and it's utterly reliable.
Why should I switch? Peter T. Daniels 2005 in <news:sci.lang>
Andreas Prilop
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
>
> It's greek.I have no idea how to change it.
Tools > Options > Send
Mail Sending Format > Plain Text Settings > Message format MIME
News Sending Format > Plain Text Settings > Message format MIME
Encode text using: None
Or better: use a real newsreader.
neeraj....@gmail.com
Marco Pagliero wrote:
> John Atkinson schrieb:
>
> > Since calques of "Good day" are widespread throughout Europe, and hardly
> > known in non-european languages AFAIK, it must have started at one
> > particular place and time and spread from there. What's the oldest known
> > use of the form, and which language was it?
>
> I remember in classic latin they said "Ave atque vale", but this was
> the opening of a formal letter. I have no idea if they said "Bona die"
> in the street.
'Ave atque vale' was never used as a greeting, written or not; it was a
formula for addressing a corpse at a funeral. There is the poem by
Catullus (101 - 'multas per gentes et multa per aequora vectus...') in
which he arrives at his brother's funeral, which closes with the
phrase: 'atque in perpetuum, frater, ave atque vale.'
'Ave(te)' was the standard greeting; it was spoken, but it probably
jumped around in register over time. 'Vale(te)' was the standard for
'goodbye'; it literally translates 'farewell / fare well'.
The written salutation usually had the name of the addresser and
addressee combined in a sentence with 'salutem dicit'.
> Also I don't know if "Kalimera" was already used in classical time.
The standard greeting in Classical Attic was 'khaire', which translates
to 'rejoice'.
Neeraj Mathur
Oliver Cromm
> Oliver Cromm <lispa...@internet.uqam.ca> wrote in message
> news:1apm3to3...@ocromm.my-fqdn.de...
>>>> Paul J Kriha <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> > Which two of them are from Eastern Europe?
>>>>>
>>>>> I am confused. Is this a joke of some kind? :-)
>>>>> From your email address and your name I assume that you
>>>>> are a European, yet you pretend not to know which countries
>>>>> are traditionally regarded as part of Western Europe,
>>>>> Northern Europe, Central Europe, Southern Europe, and
>>>>> Eastern Europe.
>>
>> I don't think I was taught that at school (in the 70s). And it's not
>> only Central Europe that didn't exist as a concept at that time; I would
>
> The concept existed in literature, especially geographically orientated
> literature, since medieval times. You may not have been aware of
> it or have heard it in your school but you cannot say it didn't exist.
Sorry, I was expressing myself very sloppily. It was a time when the
concept virtually didn't exist in daily life. On top of that, I had a
bad geography teacher when these things were due.
>> also hesitate where to put Portugal or Bulgaria, when SW and SE aren't
>> options.
>
> Perhaps Portugese and Bulgarian natives might have some
> reasoned opinion about it. :-)
Sure, I'd like to hear that.
> I'd also say that when one talks about geographical locations
> in Europe one shouldn't let the terminology get polluted with
> political terms especially not the ones from the Cold War or Nazi eras.
Dismissing the ideas that were common at that time is as ahistorical as
forgetting what was usual before that.
This seems to be a very emotional matter to people from Poland, Czechia,
Hungary. While I have no objections to you constituting Central Europe
with us Germans, why, on the other hand, is so objectionable for you to
be put into Eastern Europe _in another, coarser system_? As if there
were exactly one "correct" subdivision of Europe. I sense a latent
racism there.
--
Performance: A statement of the speed at which a computer system works.
Or rather, might work under certain circumstances. Or was
rumored to be working over in Jersey about a month ago.
Peter T. Daniels
Andreas Prilop wrote:
> --
> Netscape 3.04 does everything I need, and it's utterly reliable.
> Why should I switch? Peter T. Daniels 2005 in <news:sci.lang>
You didn't have the courtesy to reply to my query about this quotation.
You will be delighted to learn that my dial-up modem no longer works
(it seems to have gotten zapped in a momentary power ouitage or power
surge a few days ago, even though I was not on line at the time), so I
can no longer use Netscape 3.04.
I have been using Verison Yahoo! DSL for several months, but newsgroups
cannot be accessed through it, so I am now force to "rely" on google
groups, which is almost as bad as everyone says.
Is there any way to mark threads to not be shown? to mark individual
postings as having been read, and so not be shown? to killfile?
And, above all, to keep a page from "expiring" in less than a minute?
Aidan Kehoe
Ar an seachtú lá déag de mí Iúil, scríobh Peter T. Daniels:
> Andreas Prilop wrote:
> > --
> > Netscape 3.04 does everything I need, and it's utterly reliable.
> > Why should I switch? Peter T. Daniels 2005 in <news:sci.lang>
Regarding your subject line: What do you find malicious about it, and if it
is accurate, as a few minutes’ searching in Google Groups implies it is, why
do you not assume that it’s as constructive in the context of someone’s
signature as it was when you said it? Are you being wilfully antagonistic?
> You didn't have the courtesy to reply to my query about this quotation.
> You will be delighted to learn that my dial-up modem no longer works
> (it seems to have gotten zapped in a momentary power ouitage or power
> surge a few days ago, even though I was not on line at the time), so I
> can no longer use Netscape 3.04.
>
> I have been using Verison Yahoo! DSL for several months, but newsgroups
> cannot be accessed through it, so I am now force to "rely" on google
> groups, which is almost as bad as everyone says.
>
> Is there any way to mark threads to not be shown? to mark individual
> postings as having been read, and so not be shown? to killfile?
>
> And, above all, to keep a page from "expiring" in less than a minute?
I have no experience using Google Groups, and have no intention of
suggesting any alternative to you, because I suspect my suggesting anything
would mean you would immediately rule it out.
Artur Jachacy
> I have been using Verison Yahoo! DSL for several months, but newsgroups
> cannot be accessed through it, so I am now force to "rely" on google
> groups, which is almost as bad as everyone says.
news.verizon.net doesn't work for you?
News server settings
* News (NNTP) server: news.verizon.net
* Your Verizon Online user name
* Your Verizon Online password
Artur
--
Washington, Washington
Six-foot-twenty, fuckin' killing for fun
André G. Isaak
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Andreas Prilop wrote:
> > --
> > Netscape 3.04 does everything I need, and it's utterly reliable.
> > Why should I switch? Peter T. Daniels 2005 in <news:sci.lang>
>
> You didn't have the courtesy to reply to my query about this quotation.
>
> You will be delighted to learn that my dial-up modem no longer works
> (it seems to have gotten zapped in a momentary power ouitage or power
> surge a few days ago, even though I was not on line at the time), so I
> can no longer use Netscape 3.04.
>
> I have been using Verison Yahoo! DSL for several months, but newsgroups
> cannot be accessed through it, so I am now force to "rely" on google
> groups, which is almost as bad as everyone says.
I'm not sure how verizon works in NY, but in MA where I resided up until
a but under a year ago, there was definitely usenet access through
verizon DSL. You just need to reconfigure your newsreader with the
correct server (try news.verizon.net).
André
--
n.b. there are no monotremes in my email address
Oliver Cromm
> "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in
> news:44bb...@clear.net.nz:
>> Not surprisingly the Czech school books describe the method
>> of calculating the dead centre as the centre of gravity.
>> As if having it in your backyard was of any cultural value. :-)
>
> There are many different published "midpoints" of Europe, and
> surprisingly most are in the country of the people who did the
> calculations, and most don't publish the exact method used.
The same competition goes or went on for the center of Germany, and
surely elsewhere as well. One more slogan for the tourism industry ;-)
>> I have no idea where the dead centre calculated this way
>> would be. Perhaps the compact chunky Russia before the
>> Urals would shift the centre a little distance farther to the East.
>
> The centre of gravity method pushes the midpoint towards the east,
> because that's where the biggest landmass is. My gut feeling is that
> it's supposed to be in Eastern Poland or Western Ukraine.
Other methods that might provide even more useful information would be
the center of gravity of the population, or the median lines of
population.
--
Oliver C.
greg.j...@gmail.com
> I believe in Arabic they say "Peace" or "God with you" and in Swaeli
> "(Good) business".
sabaaH al-khayr, would be "Good morning"
masaa al-khayr for "Good evening/afternoon"
(xxxx an-nuur is the response to either)
As-salaamu :alay-kum, a greeting, means "May peace be upon you"
Wa :alay-kum as-salaamu = "And upon you be peace"
The "God with you" you're thinking of might be "al-Hamdu lil-laah,"
("Praise be to God") as a response to "How are you?"
Yusuf B Gursey
greg.j...@gmail.com wrote:
> Marco Pagliero wrote:
> > I believe in Arabic they say "Peace" or "God with you" and in Swaeli
alla:h(u) ma3aka "God be with you" for "good-bye"
Peter T. Daniels
Aidan Kehoe wrote:
> Ar an seachtú lá déag de mí Iúil, scríobh Peter T. Daniels:
>
> > Andreas Prilop wrote:
> > > --
> > > Netscape 3.04 does everything I need, and it's utterly reliable.
> > > Why should I switch? Peter T. Daniels 2005 in <news:sci.lang>
>
> Regarding your subject line: What do you find malicious about it, and if it
> is accurate, as a few minutes' searching in Google Groups implies it is, why
> do you not assume that it's as constructive in the context of someone's
> signature as it was when you said it? Are you being wilfully antagonistic?
People generally put quotations from fellow posters into their sigs to
ridicule them.
Don't tell me this comes as a shock to you.
> > You didn't have the courtesy to reply to my query about this quotation.
> > You will be delighted to learn that my dial-up modem no longer works
> > (it seems to have gotten zapped in a momentary power ouitage or power
> > surge a few days ago, even though I was not on line at the time), so I
> > can no longer use Netscape 3.04.
> >
> > I have been using Verison Yahoo! DSL for several months, but newsgroups
> > cannot be accessed through it, so I am now force to "rely" on google
> > groups, which is almost as bad as everyone says.
> >
> > Is there any way to mark threads to not be shown? to mark individual
> > postings as having been read, and so not be shown? to killfile?
> >
> > And, above all, to keep a page from "expiring" in less than a minute?
>
> I have no experience using Google Groups, and have no intention of
> suggesting any alternative to you, because I suspect my suggesting anything
> would mean you would immediately rule it out.
Probably, but I didn't ask _you_, did I.
Peter T. Daniels
Artur Jachacy wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > I have been using Verison Yahoo! DSL for several months, but newsgroups
> > cannot be accessed through it, so I am now force to "rely" on google
> > groups, which is almost as bad as everyone says.
>
> news.verizon.net doesn't work for you?
>
> News server settings
>
> * News (NNTP) server: news.verizon.net
> * Your Verizon Online user name
> * Your Verizon Online password
>
> <http://netservices.verizon.net/portal/site/msa/index.jsp?epi_menuItemID=c567d167631f692124525d7253295c48&problem=14481>
It is not available to Verizon Yahoo! users, because Yahoo! has decreed
that it does not support newsgroups.
This little piece of information was withheld when I signed up and was
offered the choise between Verizon MSN and Verizon Yahoo!.
Having been exposed to about 15 years of horror stories of MS's
internet services, I did not want to be involved with it.
Paul J Kriha
<sig...@binet.is> wrote in message news:1153132921.9...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Paul J Kriha wrote:
>
>
> > >
> > > Really? Well, if you calculate the center of gravity, then this might
> > > hold. If you just look at longitudes and latitudes, it'll probably
> > > depend on the question if they forgot to include Iceland. (Should it
> > > even be included?).
> >
> > I looked up the extreme latitudes and longitudes in my atlas.
> > West coast of Iceland gave me approx 24 degrees west, Urals sit
> > around 60 degrees east, northern tip of Sweden roughly at 71
> > degrees north and south coast of Crete sits around 35 degrees
> > north.
>
> Norway extends to the north of Sweden
"Sweden" is a typo.... would you believe a spelling mistake? :-)))
I meant to say Norway, the 71 degrees north is actually the
northern coast of Norway.
> and the islands of Spitsbergen
> and Novaya Zemlya are in Europe as well.
Yeaaas. Novaya Zemlya is not as far north as Spitsbergs.
But what about Franz Josef Land? That's even farther north.
The authors of my atlas were very careful to avoid any
contraversy by not providing a slightest information about what
traditionally are and what aren't the constituents of continents.
They mostly concentrated on the administration releationships.
They show Greenland with (Den.) after its name. They mark
French Pacific Islands as part of France. But they avoid any
indication whether Greenland is part of America or Europe.
pjk
(hmmm, rather off subject, off topic)
Paul J Kriha
Andreas Prilop <nhtc...@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.44.060717...@s5b004.rrzn.uni-hannover.de...
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2006, Paul J Kriha wrote:
>
> > Generally speaking, if somebody uses non-standard-ASCII
> > characters
>
> What are "non-standard-ASCII characters"?
Sorry, I assumed that it would be clear from the (now erased)
line just above the one you quoted, that I meant characters
with ord value from 128 to 255.
To interpret correctly the 8-bit ASCII characters with ordinal
values 128-255 the reader needs to know which character
set to use. If the sender doesn't provide a hint in the form
of a message header "charset" parameter then the reader
can do nothing better than use a default set. In the earlier
example the reader displayed the high value chars as gobbledy-
gooks because it wasn't given the hint to use a Greek set for
high value 8-bit ASCII.
pjk
Paul J Kriha
[...]
> This seems to be a very emotional matter to people from Poland, Czechia,
> Hungary.
Are you implying that Austrians are generally happy with their
country being regarded as part of Eastern Europe?
I doubt it.
Of course it is emotional matter to most of the people living
in the countries you mentioned. How could it be not?
Terms like Eastern Europe (when applied to these CE countries),
Eastern Block, Iron Curtain, at al. are political products of Cold
War era. These terms were coined during the enslavement
of CE countries by communist regimes dictated from the
Soviet Union. Some (many) Poles, Czechs, Hungarians dislike
the EE term because it is reminding them of the communist
era which was equally painful for them as the nazi era was
and it lasted much longer.
Germans generally avoid the name "Tschechei" because of
the history of its frequent use during the Nazi era. They invented
"Tschechien" instead. Well, good. It was a nice gesture.
The Czechs never minded "Boehmen" and would probably
not mind "Tschechei" that much either.
But it shows that Germans too are sensitive to old political terms.
> While I have no objections to you constituting Central Europe
> with us Germans, why, on the other hand, is so objectionable for you to
> be put into Eastern Europe
:-) Me? Personally, I haven't been a European for almost 40 years. :-)
> _in another, coarser system_? As if there
> were exactly one "correct" subdivision of Europe.
There is nothing wrong with eastern half of Europe and western
half of Europe. But when you talk geography or contemporary
politics then EE (applied to CE) seems to be out of place.
When you talk specifically about Central American countries
don't you also use the term CE, not NA or SA?
> I sense a latent racism there.
Wrong.
Don't be silly. :-)
pjk
O-V R:nen
> Are you implying that Austrians are generally happy with their
> country being regarded as part of Eastern Europe?
I guess it's always better than Oceania...
Ruud Harmsen
<paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz>: in sci.lang:
>Sorry, I assumed that it would be clear from the (now erased)
>line just above the one you quoted, that I meant characters
>with ord value from 128 to 255.
>
>To interpret correctly the 8-bit ASCII characters with ordinal
>values 128-255 the reader needs to know which character
>set to use.
ASCII is 7-bits only.
If the sender doesn't provide a hint in the form
>of a message header "charset" parameter then the reader
>can do nothing better than use a default set. In the earlier
>example the reader displayed the high value chars as gobbledy-
>gooks because it wasn't given the hint to use a Greek set for
>high value 8-bit ASCII.
There is no 8-bit ASCII, or it wouldn't be ASCII.
For details, see:
http://czyborra.com/charsets/iso8859.html
http://czyborra.com/charsets/iso646.html
http://czyborra.com/
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com
Artur Jachacy
That sucks. There are at least 2 sites, Teranews and Bubbanews, that
offer 'free' Usenet access for a one-time setup fee of $3.95. Or you
could try using news.aioe.org, but they have some weird policies there.
António Marques
>>> Andreas Prilop wrote:
>>>> -- Netscape 3.04 does everything I need, and it's utterly
>>>> reliable. Why should I switch? Peter T. Daniels 2005 in
>>>> <news:sci.lang>
>>
>> Regarding your subject line: What do you find malicious about it,
>> and if it is accurate, as a few minutes' searching in Google Groups
>> implies it is, why do you not assume that it's as constructive in
>> the context of someone's signature as it was when you said it? Are
>> you being wilfully antagonistic?
>
> People generally put quotations from fellow posters into their sigs
> to ridicule them.
I think it can be readily construed as an exhibition of an extremely
rare specimen of a magnificent illustration of 'if it ain't broke, don't
fix it'.
--
am
laurus : rhodophyta : brezoneg : smalltalk : stargate
António Marques
<paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz>: in sci.lang:
> Sorry, I assumed that it would be clear from the (now erased) line
> just above the one you quoted, that I meant characters with ord value
> from 128 to 255.
>
> To interpret correctly the 8-bit ASCII characters with ordinal values
> 128-255 the reader needs to know which character set to use.
Just a note, ASCII only uses 0-127. The value of the rest is defined by
the charset, as you mention.
> If the sender doesn't provide a hint in the form of a message header
> "charset" parameter then the reader can do nothing better than use a
> default set. In the earlier example the reader displayed the high
> value chars as gobbledy- gooks because it wasn't given the hint to
> use a Greek set for high value 8-bit ASCII.
Which would be ISO 8859-7, Windows-1253 or some such.
There is also UTF-8, which doesn't map 128-255 to characters but uses
sets of them to represent unicode positions (so, for instance, any greek
letter is represented by two bytes of the 128-255 region).
On top of that, e-mail/news doesn't necessarily support all the 8 bits,
so values in the 128-255 region must be escaped for their transmission
to be ensured. So, a simple greek letter will take 6 bytes to encode:
(escape byte + hexadecimal value <2 bytes>)
*
number of bytes per greek letter in UTF-8 <2 bytes>
=
(1+2)*2
=
6
There's UTF-7 to deal simultaneously with both phases of the encoding
and avoid some of the cost, but it's never become popular.
Oliver Cromm
> Wed, 19 Jul 2006 03:59:43 +1200: "Paul J Kriha"
> <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz>: in sci.lang:
>
>>In the earlier
>>example the reader displayed the high value chars as gobbledy-
>>gooks because it wasn't given the hint to use a Greek set for
>>high value 8-bit ASCII.
>
> There is no 8-bit ASCII, or it wouldn't be ASCII.
One can call it an 8-bit ASCII extension.
--
Bug: An elusive creature living in a program that makes it incorrect.
The activity of "debugging," or removing bugs from a program, ends
when people get tired of doing it, not when the bugs are removed.
Peter T. Daniels
That sounds reasonable. I'll look for them tomorrow -- teranews.com and
bubbanews.com? Is the latter Arkansas-based?
It's tera as in bigger than giga, not terra as in earth?
Peter T. Daniels
Paul J Kriha wrote:
> Oliver Cromm <lispa...@internet.uqam.ca> wrote in message
> news:16e2whmy2u5l7$.dlg@ocromm.my-fqdn.de...
>
> [...]
>
> > This seems to be a very emotional matter to people from Poland, Czechia,
> > Hungary.
>
> Are you implying that Austrians are generally happy with their
> country being regarded as part of Eastern Europe?
> I doubt it.
Surely Praha and Wien are the very heart of Mitteleurop? The problem
may be that there's no English equivalent for _that_ (well, to keep MKS
happy, I suppose I have to call it word, but "phrase" seems more
natural) word; but isn't that what you mean by the old sense of
"Central Europe"?
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
<news:1153278918.7...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> Artur Jachacy wrote:
[...]
>> That sucks. There are at least 2 sites, Teranews and Bubbanews, that
>> offer 'free' Usenet access for a one-time setup fee of $3.95. Or you
>> could try using news.aioe.org, but they have some weird policies there.
> That sounds reasonable. I'll look for them tomorrow -- teranews.com and
> bubbanews.com? Is the latter Arkansas-based?
Dunno, but the decor is hillbilly:
<http://www.bubbanews.com/>.
> It's tera as in bigger than giga, not terra as in earth?
Yes: <http://www.teranews.com/>.
Brian
Ruud Harmsen
<lispa...@internet.uqam.ca>: in sci.lang:
>* Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> Wed, 19 Jul 2006 03:59:43 +1200: "Paul J Kriha"
>> <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz>: in sci.lang:
>>
>>>In the earlier
>>>example the reader displayed the high value chars as gobbledy-
>>>gooks because it wasn't given the hint to use a Greek set for
>>>high value 8-bit ASCII.
>>
>> There is no 8-bit ASCII, or it wouldn't be ASCII.
>
>One can call it an 8-bit ASCII extension.
Can call, yes, but is, no, also because there are so many different
ones.
Paul J Kriha
Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1153279222.1...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Yes, I do.
Actually, I have come across the term "Middleeurope" used
in anger, so to speak. :-)
I don't know how it's spelled in writing since I only heard it.
IIRC, I heard it said by some Czech emmigrees when
some years ago I was visiting in Canada.
Unlike the German term "Mitteleurop", "Middleurope"
(a'la Middle Earth) is a slightly(moderately) derrogatory
term with political connotations refering specifically to
the Czech Republic.
Since it is meant to be somewhat insulting, I am sure it
will not become a main-stream term.
pjk
Paul J Kriha
O-V R:nen <Otto-Ville...@ling.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:ysrxslky...@venus.ling.helsinki.fi...
Ke?
Paul J Kriha
> * Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> > Wed, 19 Jul 2006 03:59:43 +1200: "Paul J Kriha"
> > <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz>: in sci.lang:
> >
> >>In the earlier
> >>example the reader displayed the high value chars as gobbledy-
> >>gooks because it wasn't given the hint to use a Greek set for
> >>high value 8-bit ASCII.
> >
> > There is no 8-bit ASCII, or it wouldn't be ASCII.
Wasn't it originally 8 bit, 7-bit + parity?
> One can call it an 8-bit ASCII extension.
I think it was called that by several computer manufacturers.
We got into this discussion by me calling it "non-standard-ASCII".
The original purpose of this subject diversion was to let
Tzortzakakis know that his Greek (i.e. value >127) characters
don't get displayed as Greek on some readers' screens because
the information about which set is to be used to interpret them
has to be passed across to the reader via the header.
pjk
Paul J Kriha
Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in message
news:xgyzy8fgxsch$.1gvp58j8ypfep.dlg@40tude.net...
Peter, you may find a reasonable internet news service but
the funcionality and speed of your own dedicated newsreader
will be difficult to beat. If the problem is just a fried modem,
it might be easier to buy a new one, even the fast ones
(56kb/s) cost only a few dollars these days.
If you are h/w shy, then I'd suggest getting an external
modem connected via a serial interface or UBS.
Since the external modem has a number of other advantages
over the internal one it's worth paying a few extra dollars
for the free-standing box.
pjk
Oliver Cromm
Note the indefinite article (ha! we're headed towards language again.)
"Extension" because the lower 128 characters are identical to ASCII.
Sounds good to me.
--
Oliver C.
Die demoskopische Hauptzielgruppe von "Focus" sind Maenner aus dem
gehobenen Mittelstand zwischen 40 und 65 (IQ, nicht Alter).
Andreas Kabel in de.etc.sprache.deutsch
Oliver Cromm
> Oliver Cromm <lispa...@internet.uqam.ca> wrote in message
> news:16e2whmy2u5l7$.dlg@ocromm.my-fqdn.de...
>
> [...]
>
>> This seems to be a very emotional matter to people from Poland, Czechia,
>> Hungary.
>
> Are you implying that Austrians are generally happy with their
> country being regarded as part of Eastern Europe?
> I doubt it.
No, I just happen to not have had a discussion on the topic with
Austrians or Slovaks, to name one more. In the case of Slovaks, it is
because I don't know any, presently, in the case of Austrians, it may be
because no one ever calls them Eastern Europe - and there you have your
point, I admit.
>> While I have no objections to you constituting Central Europe
>> with us Germans, why, on the other hand, is so objectionable for you to
>> be put into Eastern Europe
>
> :-) Me? Personally, I haven't been a European for almost 40 years. :-)
Ah, then you can't be much older than me (supposing that after the age
of 15 or so, you can't seize being a European.) But, you see, your name
looks distinctly Central European, and me, I'm not a Canadian at all ...
> There is nothing wrong with eastern half of Europe and western
> half of Europe. But when you talk geography or contemporary
> politics then EE (applied to CE) seems to be out of place.
> When you talk specifically about Central American countries
> don't you also use the term CE, not NA or SA?
Right. OTOH, sometimes I talk about Latin America. Or North-and-Central
America. Or the ABC-countries. So it's good to have a variety of
subdivisions, but they should be clearly distinct. I'll try your
"Eastern half" next time.
>> I sense a latent racism there.
>
> Wrong.
> Don't be silly. :-)
Who want's to be lumped in with those Russians, I say? Are they really
Europeans? ;-)
Oliver Cromm
I suppose the context is this: When outside of Europe, it is good
practice to write "Austria, Europe" on your letters, because the route
via Sydney is slower.
--
*Hardware* /n./ The parts of a computer that can be kicked
Ruud Harmsen
<lispa...@internet.uqam.ca>: in sci.lang:
>I suppose the context is this: When outside of Europe, it is good
>practice to write "Austria, Europe" on your letters, because the route
>via Sydney is slower.
Isn't Österreich so much clearer, from anywhere in the world? It
happen to be the NAME of that country.
Andreas Prilop
>>> There is no 8-bit ASCII, or it wouldn't be ASCII.
>
> Wasn't it originally 8 bit, 7-bit + parity?
Well, of course you can write ASCII using 8 bits - whether
the last bit is parity or zero. In fact, today we have only
8-bit ASCII on the Internet. The days of 7-bit punched tape
are long gone.
But the point is that ASCII consists of 128 characters only.
Andreas Prilop
>> What are "non-standard-ASCII characters"?
>
> Sorry, I assumed that it would be clear from the (now erased)
> line just above the one you quoted, that I meant characters
> with ord value from 128 to 255.
ASCII contains only 128 characters; see ANSI X3.4 and
http://czyborra.com/charsets/iso646.html
The term "non-standard-ASCII characters" is a contradiction
in itself.
Andreas Prilop
> I think it can be readily construed as an exhibition of an extremely
> rare specimen of a magnificent illustration of 'if it ain't broke, don't
> fix it'.
However, Netscape 3 (three) is clearly broken! And only a minority
of webmasters even bothers with Netscape 4 (four) these days!
Peter T. Daniels
Andreas Prilop wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, António Marques wrote:
>
> > I think it can be readily construed as an exhibition of an extremely
> > rare specimen of a magnificent illustration of 'if it ain't broke, don't
> > fix it'.
>
> However, Netscape 3 (three) is clearly broken! And only a minority
> of webmasters even bothers with Netscape 4 (four) these days!
What was "broken" about Netscape 3.04?
It was far better for newsgroups than google groups is, and Verizon
Yahoo! Beta email is an almost exact clone of Netscape 3.04 (except
that it doesn't seem to have a bunch of "Go to" commands -- First
Unread, Next Unread, Last Unread, the same for Flagged, etc.
Of course I had to go to later versions of Netscape for many (usually
the more commercial) websites because of such useless clutter as
"Javascript" and "Flash."
Peter T. Daniels
I don't think anyone supports Performas any more.
It's pre-UBS -- what did they call it, something like ADT?
Peter T. Daniels
"The Eastern Empire"? Isn't that a bit anachronistic? and Eurocentric?
Artur Jachacy
> That sounds reasonable. I'll look for them tomorrow -- teranews.com and
> bubbanews.com? Is the latter Arkansas-based?
>
> It's tera as in bigger than giga, not terra as in earth?
The former. It probably refers to terabytes of data that are moved
through their servers. The main business of companies like Teranews is
selling access to high-speed servers carrying binaries newsgroups.
Richard Herring
<arturj...@gmail.com> writes
>Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> That sounds reasonable. I'll look for them tomorrow -- teranews.com and
>> bubbanews.com? Is the latter Arkansas-based?
>> It's tera as in bigger than giga, not terra as in earth?
>
>The former. It probably refers to terabytes of data that are moved
>through their servers. The main business of companies like Teranews is
>selling access to high-speed servers carrying binaries newsgroups.
>
starts to coalesce ;-)
--
Richard Herring
Horace LaBadie
ADB (Apple Desktop Bus) was the slow speed serial connector for the
keyboard and mouse.
The Performas have two serial DIN-8 RS-422 ports for printer and modem
that are signal compatible with the standard D-sub 9 and D RS-232 that
appear on IBM/Microsoft PCs.
You should be able to use any Hayes-compatible RS-232 serial modem with
the Performa through a simple adapter cable and the generic Hayes modem
script (might require fiddling with the initialization code, though).
There are a few serial Mac modems available still. Best Data Smart One,
for instance. You could pick up a used unit on eBay or from a place that
sells refurbished Mac equipment.
Alternately, there are simple USB/Serial converters that would connect a
USB modem to the old style serial port, but there are other issues that
might complicate things.
HWL
Oliver Cromm
Not to the average Japanese postal worker, I assume. Unfortunately, in
Katakana the two are even more similar than in Latin alphabet:
オーストリア ôsutoria
オーストラリア ôsutoraria
You can always write Australia clearer as 豪州, but there are no common
Kanji for Austria.
--
Skyler: Uncle Cosmo ... why do they call this a word processor?
Cosmo: It's simple, Skyler ... you've seen what food processors do
to food, right?
Cartoon by Jeff MacNelley
garabik-ne...@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
> the more commercial) websites because of such useless clutter as
> "Javascript" and "Flash."
and, unfortunately, also for such very important features as
UTF-8 support...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
Paul J Kriha
> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
> > Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:57:36 -0400: Oliver Cromm
> > <lispa...@internet.uqam.ca>: in sci.lang:
> >
> >>* Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >>
> >>> There is no 8-bit ASCII, or it wouldn't be ASCII.
> >>
> >>One can call it an 8-bit ASCII extension.
> >
> > Can call, yes, but is, no, also because there are so many different
> > ones.
>
> Note the indefinite article (ha! we're headed towards language again.)
> "Extension" because the lower 128 characters are identical to ASCII.
> Sounds good to me.
It certainly sounds better than my earlier "non-standard-ascii" used
when I couldn't recall the term "extension".
<quote>
The term extended ASCII (or high ASCII) describes eight-bit or
larger character encodings that include the standard seven-bit
ASCII characters as well as others.
The use of the term has sometimes been criticized, because
it can be mistakenly interpreted that the ASCII standard has
been updated to include more than 128 characters or that
the term unambiguously identifies a single encoding, both
of which are untrue.
<unquote>
Interesting...... I knew all that, I only wish I could write like that.
pjk
P.S. Yes, I quoted from wiki, for the first time in my life....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_ASCII
P.P.S. Hey, dear reader, when was the last time when you
did something for the first time in your life? Eh?
Paul J Kriha
> Paul J Kriha wrote:
> > Oliver Cromm <lispa...@internet.uqam.ca> wrote in message
> > news:16e2whmy2u5l7$.dlg@ocromm.my-fqdn.de...
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> This seems to be a very emotional matter to people from Poland, Czechia,
> >> Hungary.
> >
> > Are you implying that Austrians are generally happy with their
> > country being regarded as part of Eastern Europe?
> > I doubt it.
>
> No, I just happen to not have had a discussion on the topic with
> Austrians or Slovaks, to name one more. In the case of Slovaks, it is
> because I don't know any, presently, in the case of Austrians, it may be
> because no one ever calls them Eastern Europe - and there you have your
> point, I admit.
Noone ever calls Austria that, so it was an easy point. :-)
> >> While I have no objections to you constituting Central Europe
> >> with us Germans, why, on the other hand, is so objectionable for you to
> >> be put into Eastern Europe
> >
> > :-) Me? Personally, I haven't been a European for almost 40 years. :-)
>
> Ah, then you can't be much older than me (supposing that after the age
> of 15 or so, you can't seize being a European.)
cease?
Being a E. is just a state of mind. I claim to have ceased
to be one (admittedly only to some degree) in my twenties.
> But, you see, your name looks distinctly Central European, and me,
Hullo, hullo, a Central European name you say? :-)
As it happens it is an old cognate of another name
(Kristian, and ultimately Kristus :-)
You find it in Süd Bayern, Oberöstereich, and also in
South Bohemia. In the mid 1400s when it crossed over
from G into the Cz speaking area it acquired a couple
of diacritics to palatalize "r" and lengthen "i".
These days you may also find this name the SE USA.
> I'm not a Canadian at all ...
An amateur lisp speaker? Where do lisp speakers come from? :-)
Many years ago I wrote a part of a lisp interpreter in Algol.
So here we are. We have at least two languages in common.
> > There is nothing wrong with eastern half of Europe and western
> > half of Europe. But when you talk geography or contemporary
> > politics then EE (applied to CE) seems to be out of place.
> > When you talk specifically about Central American countries
> > don't you also use the term CE, not NA or SA?
>
> Right. OTOH, sometimes I talk about Latin America. Or North-and-Central
> America. Or the ABC-countries. So it's good to have a variety of
> subdivisions, but they should be clearly distinct. I'll try your
> "Eastern half" next time.
>
> >> I sense a latent racism there.
> >
> > Wrong.
> > Don't be silly. :-)
>
> Who want's to be lumped in with those Russians, I say? Are they really
> Europeans? ;-)
Why wouldn't they be?
pjk
Paul J Kriha
news:3ghsb2h39mkpaiono...@4ax.com...
> Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:13:01 -0400: Oliver Cromm
> <lispa...@internet.uqam.ca>: in sci.lang:
>
> >I suppose the context is this: When outside of Europe, it is good
> >practice to write "Austria, Europe" on your letters, because the route
> >via Sydney is slower.
>
> Isn't Österreich so much clearer, from anywhere in the world?
Of course not.
> It happen to be the NAME of that country.
How old are you?
Haven't you realized yet that the name of the country you
are sending your letter _TO_ is intended for the postal
worker in the country where you are sending your
letter _FROM_?
pjk
Paul J Kriha
news:1153322222.1...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Good one, I like it, Eurocentric :-)
As to anachronistic, yes it is, but, they all are in that neck
of the woods. Böhmen is even more anachronistic, by
another millennium at least. When was the last time
the Boiis spoke Celtic language around there? :-)
pjk
Ruud Harmsen
<paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz>: in sci.lang:
>> Isn't Österreich so much clearer, from anywhere in the world?
>
>Of course not.
>
>> It happen to be the NAME of that country.
>
>How old are you?
Old enough.
>Haven't you realized yet that the name of the country you
>are sending your letter _TO_ is intended for the postal
>worker in the country where you are sending your
>letter _FROM_?
Good point. I often apply that principle in translations. OTOH, don't
post workers have access to lists of local country names too? And
isn't French an official international mail language? So Autriche?
Oliver Cromm
> Oliver Cromm <lispa...@internet.uqam.ca> wrote in message
> news:1brxry4n...@ocromm.my-fqdn.de...
>>>> While I have no objections to you constituting Central Europe
>>>> with us Germans, why, on the other hand, is so objectionable for you to
>>>> be put into Eastern Europe
>>>
>>> :-) Me? Personally, I haven't been a European for almost 40 years. :-)
>>
>> Ah, then you can't be much older than me (supposing that after the age
>> of 15 or so, you can't seize being a European.)
>
> cease?
>
> Being a E. is just a state of mind. I claim to have ceased
> to be one (admittedly only to some degree) in my twenties.
I once met a guy, from Roumania or somewhere, who claimed to be
American, as a state of mind, despite never even having visited the US.
I wasn't convinced he knew what he was talking about ...
>> I'm not a Canadian at all ...
>
> An amateur lisp speaker? Where do lisp speakers come from? :-)
From misaligned teeth?
> Many years ago I wrote a part of a lisp interpreter in Algol.
> So here we are. We have at least two languages in common.
I have a little experience in Scheme, but nothing deep. Lispamateur is
the nicest word I could think of containing "spam". And yes, that helps,
a lot. I have written thousands of Usenet posts with this address and
get a handful of spams each day. Another address that I used for three
or four posts a year or so ago and never for anything before or since is
still getting one or two dozen spams a day.
--
Smith & Wesson--the original point and click interface
Oliver Cromm
> Thu, 20 Jul 2006 20:58:15 +1200: "Paul J Kriha"
> <paul.nos...@paradise.net.nz>: in sci.lang:
>
>>Haven't you realized yet that the name of the country you
>>are sending your letter _TO_ is intended for the postal
>>worker in the country where you are sending your
>>letter _FROM_?
>
> Good point. I often apply that principle in translations. OTOH, don't
> post workers have access to lists of local country names too?
Not the ordinary guy or girl at the counter, I don't think so. Some
specialist in a back room where all the undecipherable addresses are
routed to, maybe. But I'm not so sure they go to the trouble nowadays.
I once had a parcel sent to me from Germany to Canada, because the civic
number was missing. There are maybe 20 buildings with 100 civic numbers
in the postal code area, but they send it back at 50 Dollars or more.
> And
> isn't French an official international mail language? So Autriche?
I wouldn't rely on it. Surely not in countries where the Latin alphabet
isn't ingrained. For them, Autriche and Australie may still look very
similar.
--
ASCII to ASCII, DOS to DOS
António Marques
>> I think it can be readily construed as an exhibition of an
>> extremely rare specimen of a magnificent illustration of 'if it
>> ain't broke, don't fix it'.
>
> However, Netscape 3 (three) is clearly broken! And only a minority of
> webmasters even bothers with Netscape 4 (four) these days!
NS3 isn't broken, it does its stuff reasonably well. It doesn't support
things that appeared later, but that's not being broken, or you'd have
to consider, say, lynx, completey broken.
NS4 *is* seriously broken. It mishandles a host of things that it
claimed to support, is a UI regression (unfortunately carried on to the
Mozillas) and a sloth (ditto).
NS6 was a complete joke based on an unready Mozilla (NS had to have
something out, even if Mozilla wasn't prime-time yet). The latest
Mozilla Suite releases were getting steadily better and faster, but then
the Twerps had their way.
IE5 for Windows is somewhat broken (IE5 for Mac is better), and IE6 is
almost there but still more broken than the alternatives. IE7 is
announced to be broken in some regards as well. Safari/Konqueror, Opera
and the Mozillas are not properly broken, but just incomplete (the
latter more so).
Mail and news haven't evolved as such since NS3, except for improvements
in the area of encodings, which might be interesting for Peter. Not that
I don't think that there's plenty of room to evolve, but since the Great
Aviary Leap Backward inside Mozilla I have little hope.
--
am
laurus : rhodophyta : brezoneg : smalltalk : stargate
Andreas Prilop
>> However, Netscape 3 (three) is clearly broken! And only a minority
>> of webmasters even bothers with Netscape 4 (four) these days!
>
> What was "broken" about Netscape 3.04?
Please refer to
<news:comp.infosystems.www.browsers.mac>
<news:comp.sys.mac.comm>
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.infosystems.www.browsers.mac
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.comm
I remind you of your own words
| But that doesn't give you license to discuss computers in sci.lang,
| which is about language and linguistics, not computers.
I'm reluctant to discuss the obsolete Netscape 3.
> Of course I had to go to later versions of Netscape for many (usually
> the more commercial) websites because of such useless clutter as
> "Javascript" and "Flash."
IIRC you have been told here several times that the crucial points are
- support for HTML version 4 (with Unicode as character set),
- support for cascading style sheets (CSS).
Nevertheless, you still come up with this Javascrap and Falsh myths.
For example, these pages (without Javascrap and Falsh)
http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/western-panjabi-alphabet.html
http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/sanskrit-alphabet.html
don't look convincing in Netscape 3.
Ruud Harmsen
>> What was "broken" about Netscape 3.04?
It doesn't do CSS. That makes it useless.
Peter T. Daniels
Andreas Prilop wrote:
> On 19 Jul 2006, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> >> However, Netscape 3 (three) is clearly broken! And only a minority
> >> of webmasters even bothers with Netscape 4 (four) these days!
> >
> > What was "broken" about Netscape 3.04?
>
> Please refer to
> <news:comp.infosystems.www.browsers.mac>
> <news:comp.sys.mac.comm>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.infosystems.www.browsers.mac
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.comm
>
> I remind you of your own words
>
> | But that doesn't give you license to discuss computers in sci.lang,
> | which is about language and linguistics, not computers.
>
> I'm reluctant to discuss the obsolete Netscape 3.
>
> > Of course I had to go to later versions of Netscape for many (usually
> > the more commercial) websites because of such useless clutter as
> > "Javascript" and "Flash."
>
> IIRC you have been told here several times that the crucial points are
>
> - support for HTML version 4 (with Unicode as character set),
> - support for cascading style sheets (CSS).
>
> Nevertheless, you still come up with this Javascrap and Falsh myths.
"Still"? I don't think I've ever mentioned them before.
> For example, these pages (without Javascrap and Falsh)
> http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/western-panjabi-alphabet.html
> http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/sanskrit-alphabet.html
> don't look convincing in Netscape 3.
I wouldn't know, I wouldn't care, and now I'll never be able to find
out.
Peter T. Daniels
Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >On 19 Jul 2006, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> What was "broken" about Netscape 3.04?
>
> It doesn't do CSS. That makes it useless.
I have yet to encounter CSS in either email or newsgroups. How does
that make it useless?
If it's so "useless," howcome Verizon Yahoo! Beta has copied it exactly
(except for its more useful search features)?
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>
>Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >On 19 Jul 2006, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> >> What was "broken" about Netscape 3.04?
>>
>> It doesn't do CSS. That makes it useless.
>
>I have yet to encounter CSS in either email or newsgroups. How does
>that make it useless?
Netscape is a browser. We've had this discussion before.
And yes, CSS is used in e-mail, although in my opinion it shouldn't
be. CSS is only for the web.
We've had this discussion before too. See google archives.
Peter T. Daniels
Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> 21 Jul 2006 14:12:01 -0700: "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>
> >
> >Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> >On 19 Jul 2006, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> >> What was "broken" about Netscape 3.04?
> >>
> >> It doesn't do CSS. That makes it useless.
> >
> >I have yet to encounter CSS in either email or newsgroups. How does
> >that make it useless?
>
> Netscape is a browser. We've had this discussion before.
I don't know what that's supposed to mean, or how it's relevant to
email and newsgroups.
> And yes, CSS is used in e-mail, although in my opinion it shouldn't
> be. CSS is only for the web.
I have never received email I can't read (except commercial
announcements bordering on spam that I have no interest in reading
anyway).
> We've had this discussion before too. See google archives.
No, thank you.
Ruud Harmsen
<gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>> We've had this discussion before too. See google archives.
>
>No, thank you.
End of discussion then. Why bring it up if you don't want to talk
about it?
Artur Jachacy
> 22 Jul 2006 05:30:48 -0700: "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>
>>> We've had this discussion before too. See google archives.
>> No, thank you.
>
> End of discussion then. Why bring it up if you don't want to talk
> about it?
Bring what up? Peter wanted to talk about Andreas's signature, and
Andreas brought up the web browser Netscape 3.04, which was beside the
point.
Brian M. Scott
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote in
<news:1153571448.8...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
in sci.lang:
> Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> 21 Jul 2006 14:12:01 -0700: "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>>>Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>>> >On 19 Jul 2006, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> >> What was "broken" about Netscape 3.04?
>>>> It doesn't do CSS. That makes it useless.
>>>I have yet to encounter CSS in either email or newsgroups. How does
>>>that make it useless?
>> Netscape is a browser. We've had this discussion before.
> I don't know what that's supposed to mean, or how it's relevant to
> email and newsgroups.
It means that Netscape's primary purpose is to display web
sites. Its ability to function as an e-mail client and
newsreader is secondary (and inferior to that of decent
dedicated e-mail and news clients). Its inability to handle
CSS (Cascading Style Sheets) means that it cannot display
properly a large and increasing number of perfectly ordinary
web pages. This has nothing to do with such bells and
whistles as Flash and Javascript, but rather with
improvements in the way web pages are written and intended
to be processed.
[...]
Brian
Peter T. Daniels
But since I was using it for email and newsgroups, how is any of that
relevant?
Peter T. Daniels
Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> 22 Jul 2006 05:30:48 -0700: "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net>: in sci.lang:
>
> >> We've had this discussion before too. See google archives.
> >
> >No, thank you.
>
> End of discussion then. Why bring it up if you don't want to talk
> about it?
How's that?
You brought up something irrelevant, I dismissed it, you said what
you've begun the quoting above with, telling me to see a previous
discussion, and you accuse _me_ of ending the discussion??