good free PCB software
ivan
what is a good free capture and layout software?
Ivan
Christian Treldal
Mike Monett
> Den Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:28:01 +0100 skrev ivan:
>> hi,
>>
>> what is a good free capture and layout software?
>>
>> Ivan
> http://www.geda.seul.org/
Just took a brief look - very interesting. I have a few questions I didn't
notice while glancing through:
1. Is there any way to back annotate pcb changes to the schematic?
2. Does the pcb have full DRC?
3. Can it generate a BOM?
Regards,
Mike Monett
Antiviral, Antibacterial Silver Solution:
http://silversol.freewebpage.org/index.htm
SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators:
http://silversol.freewebpage.org/spice/xtal/clapp.htm
Noise-Rejecting Wideband Sampler:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/add.automation/sampler/intro.htm
Jan Panteltje
<N...@email.adr> wrote in <Xns988A4DA001...@208.49.80.251>:
>Christian Treldal <ch...@taarnkammeret.dk> wrote:
>
>> Den Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:28:01 +0100 skrev ivan:
>
>>> hi,
>>>
>>> what is a good free capture and layout software?
>>>
>>> Ivan
>
>> http://www.geda.seul.org/
>
>Just took a brief look - very interesting. I have a few questions I didn't
>notice while glancing through:
>
>1. Is there any way to back annotate pcb changes to the schematic?
>
>2. Does the pcb have full DRC?
>
>3. Can it generate a BOM?
>
>Regards,
>
>Mike Monett
What is wrong with Eagle for small boards and 2 layers?
http://www.cadsoft.de/
DJ Delorie
Mike Monett <N...@email.adr> writes:
> 1. Is there any way to back annotate pcb changes to the schematic?
Not yet, but it's being worked on. I just keep both windows open, and
make changes simultaneously. I haven't found it too annoying yet. In
fact, with pcb's rats code, it's easier (design-wise) to make the
change in the schematic, export a new netlist, and let the rats code
guide you through the trace changes, since it highlights the
mismatched traces and tells you when they're reconnected right.
> 2. Does the pcb have full DRC?
Yes.
> 3. Can it generate a BOM?
Yes.
Joel Kolstad
news:ekk0fe$5oa$1...@news.datemas.de...
I believe the common objections are that it isn't free (as in beer) for
commercial usage and that some people really, REALLY want a piece of software
with the source code provided so that they can modify/patch it if they feel
like it.
Jan Panteltje
<JKolstad7...@yahoo.com> wrote in <12mrffo...@corp.supernews.com>:
OK, no beer.
As to patching, hey I am an active Linux contributor, and added important
functionality to several open source packages ( dvdauthor, tcmplex-panteltje
for example), also wrote some totally new ones: xste, multimux... many of that stuff,
and I _tried_ to get mplayer fixed and I _tried_ to get DVB driver fixed..... well,
I ain't gona patch for them if they want to do their own trip.
I have looked (downloaded geda whatever that package years(!) ago, and it
needed so many other packages, and with all that it still did not work,
so better use something that works.
(I found somebody in France IIRC made a Linux distro CD size with all working,
but hey do you want me to remove the current distro? ;-) )
Of course when it does not work, patching it is even further in the future.
So your second argument may be valid for somebody, but how many do you think
that are?
If I download a program, open source or closed source, I usually do that because
I want to use it for something, not to 'improve on it' if in any way possible.
If it is the only program, and I can figure out how to improve it, I will.
But if I need to make a PCB, have it ready say end of week, I will use
something that works.
That is for private use.
As a company, the cost of time spend 'patching' (never mind time installing
even) is likely more then a brand new version of eagle.
So economics apply.
And then there are the libraries.
Why does spellchecker want to replace 'distro' with 'bistro' :-)
Mike Monett
> What is wrong with Eagle for small boards and 2 layers?
> http://www.cadsoft.de/
Hi Jan.
I am running Eagle on Suse. It works, but I still can't get used to the
large number of mouse clicks needed to do a board.
One thing I do appreciate is the utter reliability of Linux. I would leave
Eagle running six months or more at a time and never had a crash. But I
got into the habit of rebooting Windows several times a day, especially
before doing anything critical.
Joel Kolstad
"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ekkfnf$c3t$1...@news.datemas.de...
> So your second argument may be valid for somebody, but how many do you think
> that are?
I think that objectively it applies to less than 1 person in 1000 that wants
to do a PCB, but I'm welling to bet that there are at least ten times that
many people who go to open source because their mindset is "must use open
source software; closed source evil! Bill Gates is spawn of Satan!"
> If I download a program, open source or closed source, I usually do that
> because
> I want to use it for something, not to 'improve on it' if in any way
> possible.
I agree with you... although there are people in commercial situations (i.e.,
they can't choose for themselves what software they're using) who I think
would go and improve software (if only to patch bugs) if they had the source
code available. (ORCAD is a good example... has lots of weird crappy little
bugs.)
> As a company, the cost of time spend 'patching' (never mind time installing
> even) is likely more then a brand new version of eagle.
> So economics apply.
In general I agree, but I think there are a lot of people out there whose
companies use a "low value" product such as, say, PADS (powerful package that
gets the job done, but *quite* expensive compared to other packages that are
just as good... company is unwilling to switch because they have, say, 20
people using it who they don't want to re-train... penny-wise and
pound-foolish, perhaps, but that's the way many companies are) where it
probably *would* have real commercial payback to fix things yourself.
---Joel
DJ Delorie
Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> writes:
> I have looked (downloaded geda whatever that package years(!) ago, and it
> needed so many other packages, and with all that it still did not work,
> so better use something that works.
Did you use the cvs download, or the installer CD? The installer CD
has everything you need on one disk, and builds/installs it all for
you.
Andy Peters
Joel,
Methinks you read to much into Ivan's request for "free software."
It's likely that he doesn't care about open-source and he just wants
something for nothing.
As it turns out, the free (as in beer) PCB software is worth exactly
what you pay for it.
-a
RST Engineering (jw)
through Orcad, and wound up as a beta tester for Circuitmaker/Traxmaker 2K,
the problem with Eagle is that it is completely counterintuitive.
I was up and running (well, OK, maybe a brisk walk) with those first three
packages within a couple of days. Two MONTHS with Eagle and I still was
struggling.
If you gave the German source code for Eagle to a Brit or an Aussie to
massage you'd probably have something to take the world on with. As it
stands, it is a monument to German engineering that is, for the most part,
useless.
Jim
Jan Panteltje
<d...@delorie.com> wrote in <xnac2a8...@delorie.com>:
I tried it from source.
As I stated some years ago.
I just checked out that site again, and I see now there is an installer CD.
The reason for 'from source' is that this system I have looks like debian,
but is totally modified, although many packages are there, a debian
install would perhaps not find these, and mess up the system installing in
other locations perhaps.
I use grml ( www.grml.org ), but removed all stuff that I thought was not
needed (and clearly was not needed as it has been up and running 24/7 as
server now for more then a year).
So I am scared of installer CD too.
WTF is wrong with a tgz.
Maybe MAYBE if I feel the inspiration and need, I will have a go again.
I do have a backup system :-)
That said, I am downloading the 129MB ISO image and will check out what is
on it.
Probably will not work ;-)
Some stuff I already have of course, PCB, iverilog...
PCB is OK, made some layouts with that too, however it is on the other harddisk.
(old suse distro).
I did have that working in qemu at the same time once IIRC.
Have to stay clear of these experiments.....
Maybe it is all to complicated for me :-)
DJ Delorie
"Andy Peters" <Bassm...@yahoo.com> writes:
> As it turns out, the free (as in beer) PCB software is worth exactly
> what you pay for it.
Why?
DJ Delorie
Ok, a lot has changed in the last few years.
> WTF is wrong with a tgz.
The installer CD has all the tgzs you need, plus a script to build
what you're missing and install it - all in a separate directory, so
it wouldn't mess up your system.
So you can just build the tgz off the CD if that's what you want.
> Probably will not work ;-)
If not, we want to know. Ok, Stuart wants to know ;-)
Joel Kolstad
news:D_jbh.33$zU4....@news.sisna.com...
> Having started off life with the 1.2 version of EasyPC for DOS, waded
> through Orcad, and wound up as a beta tester for Circuitmaker/Traxmaker 2K,
> the problem with Eagle is that it is completely counterintuitive.
I've read this several times now, and whenever I do it often takes me back to
the early '90s when I was using ProBoard/ProNet on an Amiga 3000 to layout
PCBs... it was another classic example of completely throwing away the "theme"
of the GUI within the OS and inventing their own from scratch!
Anyone else here ever use that package?
I remember calling up for tech support one and the guy yelled at me because I
had taken advantage of their "beta tester" discount -- which wasn't much,
maybe 20% off the regular price -- but then not actually had a board to do
right then and therefore was unable to provide them feedback as to what worked
and what didn't. Sheesh.
I also remember how it wasn't even smart enough to "rubber band" wires or nets
if you moved components around (and this was during the ORCAD SDT 386 days,
which certainly *could*). Aieee...
Stuart Brorson
: On a sunny day (29 Nov 2006 12:57:11 -0500) it happened DJ Delorie
:>Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> writes:
:>> I have looked (downloaded geda whatever that package years(!) ago, and it
:>> needed so many other packages, and with all that it still did not work,
:>> so better use something that works.
:>
:>Did you use the cvs download, or the installer CD? The installer CD
:>has everything you need on one disk, and builds/installs it all for
:>you.
: I tried it from source.
: As I stated some years ago.
Well, let's see. First you tried it out "some years ago". It didn't
meet your needs at the time, so you now dismiss it out of hand.
As for me, I tried driving a car "some years ago". I got my hands on
something called a "Model T". It was hard to start, didn't go fast
enough, and didn't meet my needs. Therefore, I have stuck to walking
ever since then because cars don't meet my needs.
: I just checked out that site again, and I see now there is an installer CD.
Oh! You mean that the project has evolved over the last few years!?
You don't say.....
: The reason for 'from source' is that this system I have looks like debian,
: but is totally modified, although many packages are there, a debian
: install would perhaps not find these, and mess up the system installing in
: other locations perhaps.
Ummm, there are several installation methods listed on this page:
http://geda.seul.org/download.html
including Debian .debs, Fedora RPMs, and the install CD.
: So I am scared of installer CD too.
That's fine. That's why there are multiple install options. Chose
the one you are most comfortable with.
: WTF is wrong with a tgz.
Ummm, the there are all source files in tgz format available on this
page (linked on the main download page):
http://geda.seul.org/sources.html
: That said, I am downloading the 129MB ISO image and will check out what is
: on it.
: Probably will not work ;-)
Let us know if it doesn't. If it fails, please report the distro you
are using along with including the Install.log file with your report.
If you just e-mail the developers a note saying "I tried your
installer and it failed. Why?" they will treat you like a two month
old sandwich found in the back of the fridge.
Have fun!
Stuart
Jan Panteltje
<d...@delorie.com> wrote in <xn1wnm8...@delorie.com>:
OK, here you have it, downloaded geda-install-20060907.iso
Mounted it in loop
mount -t iso9660 -o ro,loop=/dev/loop0 geda-install-20060907.iso /mnt/loop
Made a directory as root:
mkdir /root/compile/geda
cd /root/compile/geda
grml: ~/compile/geda # /mnt/loop/installer --log
print: About to call gtk.main
/mnt/loop/installer --log 4.73s user 1.84s system 33% cpu 19.509 total
Here is your firts mistajke, i taskes me for root password, and I AM already root.
And what guarantee do I have it is not send to you (this is a server remember), security risk.
Anyways it tells me it wil linstall 'gd' and the crashes, with nothing of use in the log.
grml: ~/compile/geda # cat Install.log
This is the log window which will display the
spew generated by the installation process
gEDA Installer -- version 20060907,
Copyright (C) 2004 -- 2006 Stuart D. Brorson.
This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
GNU General Public License for more details:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software
Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA.
Checking for various required programs . . .
which gcc
/usr/bin/gcc
which make
/usr/bin/make
which gtk-config
gtk-config not found
gtk-config is missing on this machine.
We'll tell the user about that in a minute.
which pkg-config
/usr/bin/pkg-config
pkg-config version 0.20 found.
pkg-config version found on this system is good. Great!
find /usr/include /usr/local/include -name 'readline.h' -print | grep 'include/readline/readline.h'
/usr/include/readline/readline.h
readline.h found on this system. Great!
which gettext
/usr/bin/gettext
which autopoint
/usr/bin/autopoint
A complete gettext installation found on this system. Great!
which gdlib-config
gdlib-config not found
We need to install gdlib-config on this machine. We'll do that in a minute.
which guile
guile not found
We need to install guile on this machine. We'll do that in a minute.
which wx-config
wx-config not found
We need to install wx-config on this machine. We'll do that in a minute.
which wish
/usr/bin/wish
tclsh version 8.4 found.
tclsh version found on this system is good. Great!
Preparing to install gd libraries. . . .
Now start process of building and installing gd.
I need root in order to execute this command.
--- Starting expect session ---
Sending su
Timeout waiting for password prompt
--------------------------------------------------
End of log. CRASHED here
Maybe you now get why you should release a stail linked version......
Anyways it did not get very far now did it?
I stop here (no more tests).
umount /dev/loop
Jan Panteltje
<s...@cloud9.net> wrote in <12mrq3l...@corp.supernews.com>:
: That said, I am downloading the 129MB ISO image and will check out what is
>: on it.
>: Probably will not work ;-)
>
>Let us know if it doesn't. If it fails, please report the distro you
>are using along with including the Install.log file with your report.
>If you just e-mail the developers a note saying "I tried your
>installer and it failed. Why?" they will treat you like a two month
>old sandwich found in the back of the fridge.
>
>Have fun!
>
>Stuart
See my other posting how it failed and your no clue about security.
JeffM
**What's Wrong with Cadsoft EAGLE" by Markus Zingg
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/browse_frm/thread/f794e82d26b59e18/d7cf4149edb93ac7?q=*-*-website+reuse+paying.*+*-I-will-switch+cracked-*+*.would.not.help.*+zzz+after-*-*-version-*+copied+*.*.unlock.*.designs+*-*-*-*-exchange-*-*-*-*-third-party+reused+qq+*-*-single-bit-*-*-*-*+useless+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened
BTW, it's not really necessary to include the full text
from the 3 previous posters. Feel free to TRIM.
Jan Panteltje
<jef...@email.com> wrote in
<1164832170.9...@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>:
Well, there is always pro and contras.
Nothing is perfect, at least it installed, 3.55r and 4.09 and both work
in Linux, unlike geda that 1) does not install 2) does not have back-annotation.
I will quote what I want to quote, you play usenet police or cad police, but not
in my reader.
Stuart Brorson
: <s...@cloud9.net> wrote in <12mrq3l...@corp.supernews.com>:
1. You didn't specify your Linux distro as asked. I can't offer any
advice if I don't know what distro you are using. FWIW, a bunch of
install tips (distro specific) are available here:
http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:installation
2. You didn't read any of the supporting docs, which talk about this
issue, and offer suggestions about what to do if you don't like giving
the root password.
3. You shouldn't run the installer as root, as discussed clearly in
the accompanying documentation.
4. You evidently don't have the time or patience to read the website
since you are manifestly unable or unwilling to try any of the other
installation methods.
5. You also have a bad attitude, at least in your postings, which
suppresses any interest I might have in lending you a hand. One
advantage (for the user/consumer) commercial software has over
open-source is that the user can abuse the poor support slob when the
sofware doens't work. As an open-source developer, I can walk away
from cranky users.
6. GEDA, PCB, the install CD and the rest of the stuff is open-source
software which presupposes a threshold of cluefulness and
resourcefulness from its uses. Lots of people use it successfully. I
guess you won't be one of them. Sorry!
I remain interested in hearing from other users who have install or
usage problems. Please don't forget to supply details about your
distro and what you tried before things went south. Indeed, I wonder
what Ivan -- the OP -- ended up using for his free EDA stuff, and if
he tried gEDA.
Stuart
JeffM
>what is a good free capture and layout software?
Hmmm. Has another week passed already?
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=ingroup:sci.electronics.*+insubject:free+insubject:PCB+insubject:software
No one has mentioned KiCAD yet in this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/f3834268f341b3f3/ecede39aa3736357?q=zzz+*-use-Kicad+look-at-gEDA+qq-qq+*-*-flexibility-of-an-open-design-flow-suite+well-established-*-*-*-*-*-community+*-*-*-*-fully-integrated-suite+well-documented
http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/index.html
Jan Panteltje
<s...@cloud9.net> wrote in <12mrsrj...@corp.supernews.com>:
>
>: See my other posting how it failed and your no clue about security.
>
>1. You didn't specify your Linux distro as asked.
Look buster, read the thread again.
Bye.
I was not posting a bug report, but if you have half a clue you can get a long way
understanding you need to revise a lot.
plonk
bill....@ieee.org
Mike Monett wrote:
> Christian Treldal <ch...@taarnkammeret.dk> wrote:
>
> > Den Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:28:01 +0100 skrev ivan:
>
> >> hi,
> >>
> >> what is a good free capture and layout software?
> >>
> >> Ivan
>
> > http://www.geda.seul.org/
>
> Just took a brief look - very interesting. I have a few questions I didn't
> notice while glancing through:
>
> 1. Is there any way to back annotate pcb changes to the schematic?
Not yet, but it is definitely on the wish list.
> 2. Does the pcb have full DRC?
Loads of options.
> 3. Can it generate a BOM?
Yes.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen (but in Sydney at the moment)
bill....@ieee.org
Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:06:00 -0800) it happened "Joel Kolstad"
> <JKolstad7...@yahoo.com> wrote in <12mrffo...@corp.supernews.com>:
>
> >"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:ekk0fe$5oa$1...@news.datemas.de...
> >> What is wrong with Eagle for small boards and 2 layers?
> >> http://www.cadsoft.de/
> >
> >I believe the common objections are that it isn't free (as in beer) for
> >commercial usage and that some people really, REALLY want a piece of software
> >with the source code provided so that they can modify/patch it if they feel
> >like it.
>
> OK, no beer.
> As to patching, hey I am an active Linux contributor, and added important
> functionality to several open source packages ( dvdauthor, tcmplex-panteltje
> for example), also wrote some totally new ones: xste, multimux... many of that stuff,
> and I _tried_ to get mplayer fixed and I _tried_ to get DVB driver fixed..... well,
> I ain't gona patch for them if they want to do their own trip.
> I have looked (downloaded geda whatever that package years(!) ago, and it
> needed so many other packages, and with all that it still did not work,
> so better use something that works.
I've been reinstalling gEDA for years too. The process got a lot easier
a few years ago, when they put together a CD-sized collection of source
files and make files that automatically compiles the whole package on
your computer. Worked fine for me under SuSE 10.0, and they monitor
it's perfromance on a bunch of other popular distributions.
Once installed, the package can be used to do serious work - check out
the mailing list.
There is a learning curve, as there is with every circuit design
program, but it does seem to be surviveable.
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen (but in Sydney at the moment, and gEDA-less)
Andy Peters
Well, I installed gEDA. I wanted to see whether gEDA is "good enough,"
and also to see if my comment about "you get what you pay for" is true.
(I already know that it's not, because I depend on Subversion and
Apache.) Also, I really want to do as little in Windows as possible;
I've got a new Mac Book Pro in addition to the eMac and a G4 so clearly
Mac OS X is my preferred platform.
I started with the fink packages (http://www.ghz.cc/charles/fink/). I
haven't been using fink because for me, it hasn't been necessary (I was
able to build Subversion and Apache from source), but the sheer number
of packages and potential dependency issues are daunting. So I
downloaded fink from
http://fink.sourceforge.net/download/index.php?phpLang=en, installed
it, ran the update and then did a fink install geda-bundle. The
download started, I was asked some questions (and chose the default
answers, 'cause I had no idea otherwise), and it started downloading,
configuring and make-ing. After awhile it was done, and I typed gschem
from an xterm prompt, and voila, the schematic tool started. I type
pcb from the xterm and the PCB tool started.
Looks like there's a bunch of decent footprints in the PCB library.
I'll have to make my own schematic library, as I like to select a part
from the library and have it know the footprint and a valid vendor part
number (useful when generating the BOM). So there's some playing
around to do.
I suppose I should be happy that the damn thing built and installed,
which is usually an arcane process fraught with peril.
-a
Andy Peters
I think I asked myself that exact question when I committed some
changes to my subversion repository, which is served by apache ...
So scratch that statement.
-a
DJ Delorie
"Andy Peters" <Bassm...@yahoo.com> writes:
> I'll have to make my own schematic library, as I like to select a part
> from the library and have it know the footprint and a valid vendor part
> number (useful when generating the BOM).
This is the well known "heavy vs light symbols" debate, and there are
pros and cons to each side.
Me, I use gattrib to fill in the footprints and ordering info.
Gattrib is a spreadsheet-like tool that manages the information stored
in all the symbols in all your schematic pages, and it's a lot easier
to manage the data that way than to put it in the individual symbols
(either when you create them, or as you edit the schematic).
I pull the BOM from the schematics (gattrib's info) too. There's a
BOM exporter in PCB too, but the footprints in PCB can't hold as much
info as the schematics. The PCB BOM exporter is used more for driving
pick and place machines.
Robert Baer
> On a sunny day (Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:38:15 -0500) it happened Mike Monett
> <N...@email.adr> wrote in <Xns988A4DA001...@208.49.80.251>:
>
>
>>Christian Treldal <ch...@taarnkammeret.dk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Den Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:28:01 +0100 skrev ivan:
>>
>>>>hi,
>>>>
>>>>what is a good free capture and layout software?
>>>>
>>>>Ivan
>>
>>>http://www.geda.seul.org/
>>
>>Just took a brief look - very interesting. I have a few questions I didn't
>>notice while glancing through:
>>
>>1. Is there any way to back annotate pcb changes to the schematic?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Mike Monett It *might* work for him; I tried 4 different times, different
versions - they either failed to install, or when installed were
completely impossible to use for any purpose except give a decorative
screen.
Jeroen Belleman
> [...]
> If you just e-mail the developers a note saying "I tried your
> installer and it failed. Why?" they will treat you like a two month
> old sandwich found in the back of the fridge.
>
These days, most software doesn't keep any longer than that
sandwich.
Jeroen Belleman
(Sick and tired of 'upgrading')
Paul Burke
> I'm welling to bet that there are at least ten times that
> many people who go to open source because their mindset is "must use open
> source software; closed source evil! Bill Gates is spawn of Satan!"
You're telling me he isn't?
Jan Panteltje
<pa...@scazon.com> wrote in <4t7p5qF...@mid.individual.net>:
Just as an aside, nobody is 'evil' or at least not more or less then anybody else
in that contexts.
Although it maybe right some people / companies got pestered / swallowed /
put out of bussines, etc.. by Gates ULTD, at least for me when I started using Linux
it had nothing to do with that.
The reason was (about Linux 0.9 IIRC) that it had a free compiler (as in beer),
did not have a silly memory limit as MS DOS had (times of win 3.1 build on
MS DOS), and was free on top of that, and I liked Unix more.
It did mean I had to write almost every application I needed myself though.
Some did exist, some did but then did not work.. I would not expect these to
exist.
Much later came the open source advocacy, and along with Linux came people
who _demanded_ you added functionality to the apps you did put out as open
source but actually wrote for yourself.
I _did_ get an email almost exactly like this:
'You program sucks because it is spelled NewsFleX and that is to difficult to
type for me, and I do not like the GUI either'.
In those times I was polite and may have replied use a ln -s q NewsFleX, so
you only have to type 'q'.
These days I frankly tell them to go to you know where.
Somebody just emailed me the mpeg1 movies made with my multiplexer play OK on
all Linux players, but not MS mediaplayer.
I wrote back it was difficult to test for me (I have no recent MS software,
let alone mediaplayer), but that it was MS sabotage.
Then I was told it was so easy to have a scapegoat.
But hey should I install Vista to see of it will run my movies?
That is sort of defeating the purpose of why I use Linux in the fist place.
So I still have top make a politically correct follow up reply to that one,
but I did insert twice the word 'perhaps' in my original reply.
Now with the Novell / MS deal and Balmer accusing Linux of violating patents,
I do not even want Vista in a one mile range, even if it came for free (as in
beer) with free hardware for the bloat.
ivan
news:12mrsrj...@corp.supernews.com...
I haven't had the time to try anything yet... here they use only Windows...
tried to talk them into linux but without success... however I bookmarked
the link for my personal use... will look into it in the future
thanks
ivan
>
>
>
DJ Delorie
"ivan" <tec...@wolfsafety.it> writes:
> I haven't had the time to try anything yet... here they use only Windows...
> tried to talk them into linux but without success... however I bookmarked
gEDA runs on windows and mac too.
Frank Miles
>>>What is wrong with Eagle for small boards and 2 layers?
>>>http://www.cadsoft.de/
[snip]
>Well, there is always pro and contras.
>Nothing is perfect, at least it installed, 3.55r and 4.09 and both work
>in Linux, unlike geda that 1) does not install 2) does not have back-annotation.
[snip]
It is possible that your -ah- "personalized" Linux may have problems installing
some software that don't occur with more standard distributions. ISTM that
when you have that degree of personalization that you have to accept some
additional problems with installing new software. Speaking as someone that
runs Debian, installing geda and cohorts is as ridiculously simple as installing
anything else, and has been for some time.
As far as lacking back-annotation, you are completely right - the geda web site
clearly notes this as an existing deficiency.
-f
--
Joel Kolstad
news:1164860445.3...@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> I suppose I should be happy that the damn thing built and installed,
> which is usually an arcane process fraught with peril.
A lot of big installs like that are arcance processes fraught with PERL...
Ian Bell
> hi,
>
> what is a good free capture and layout software?
>
> Ivan
Try kicad at http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/index.html
It is very good, completely free and work both on Windows and Linux.
Ian
JeffM
>>>[...]their mindset is "must use open source software;
>>>closed source evil! Bill Gates is spawn of Satan!"
>>>
>>You're telling me he isn't?
>>
>Just as an aside, nobody is 'evil'
>or at least not more or less then anybody else in that contexts.
Heh. That's a good one. Now tell us the one about The Three Bears.
Surely your memory is not that short.
See if any of these ring a bell:
Gary Kildall, Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds.
As for Bill Gates:
http://www.google.com/search?q=*-*-*-*-vs-Microsoft+the-case+court&num=100
Specifically
http://www.google.com/search?q=United-States-v-Microsoft+*-Penfield-*+Findings-of-Fact
Jan Panteltje
<jef...@email.com> wrote in
<1164914109.8...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
>Paul Burke wrote
>>>>[...]their mindset is "must use open source software;
>>>>closed source evil! Bill Gates is spawn of Satan!"
>>>>
>Joel Kolstad wrote:
>>>You're telling me he isn't?
>>>
>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>Just as an aside, nobody is 'evil'
>>or at least not more or less then anybody else in that contexts.
>
>Heh. That's a good one. Now tell us the one about The Three Bears.
>
>Surely your memory is not that short.
>See if any of these ring a bell:
>Gary Kildall, Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds.
I am under the impression that many 'leaders of the free software blah blah'
run this as a business.
Just like the green politicians make money, these are politicians too.
The issue with software is that you write it.
It is possible to write a 1000 page book about a 100 line C program.
Even more then one book. And people will buy it, spend month reading it,
and say AHHHH and OOOOOH.
You can make politics with it, and make a good living from that.
Sell space for conferences about it, the works.
Others will write the 100 lines of C code themselves, and save lots of time.
Human species, the 'character' is a variable, although for many it may
be fixed at some point in youth, it can be altered.
The potential is for all men to be able to be a beast or a saint.
So if you call Gates 'evil' then you are merely pointing out a facet
that may very well be somewhere manifest in you too.
That brings us to the question what is good and bad.
That what is really good is happiness happening within us.
I could image that Bill Gates left MS perhaps just to get aways from the
demonising done by others.
Remember in the evolution US committed genocide on the native Americans, we in
Europe possibly did the same with 'Neandertalers'.
The right of the strongest.
There is nothing wrong with evolution and fighting.
So, with all that 'character', make belief, illusions employed, an uncertain outcome
for the human species, the _only_ thing that counts is how much of the time you
can be happy.
Your efficiency in percent is: 100 x days_happy / days_lived.
And it does not matter if kill or let live, fight or live in peace.
What does matter is that you find how the inner workings of your brain are and
chose happiness.
Do meditation.
So, as to the software, I wrote my programs because I needed the functionality,
for study, for fun.
Gate did the same, wrote a simple BASIC IIRC.
He just knows how to make $$$ with it, so let him, it is a free world, capitalism,
I chose not to pay him those $$$, use Linux and write what I need.
What Torvalds and others do I really do not care a lot, our vision on DRM is different.
I have written 2 operating systems, a CP/M clone (in that time) and a windowing multitasker.
If Linux goes in a direction that I find not agreeable I will write my own.
For now it does what I need, server, communication, plays my TV and videos, not even need
for faster hardware.
I hope to get a Sony PS3 next year (March announced in Europe) and run Linux on it.
Already there is Linux available for it now.
That will up my speed and resolution to HDTV, give me blue ray playback all for 499 Euro.
Goodbye PC, that thing (Cell processor) can run as server too, looks better then the
beige box....
But it is also easy to write a small multitasker and run on one of the Cell co-processors.
It is a free world, and you can choose.
Balmer is not dictating anything, he may think he does, but as long as there is competition
he is always in danger of going belly up, I have seen big companies make big losses.
The original idea of an 'operating system' was to make a standard interface for software
to talk to the hardware, provide some basic functions.
Both MS windows and Linux are getting a bit bloated, a lot actually, and not always better.
The hardware will be getting faster....but power consumption should go way down.
Pro of Linux is that you can run it small, I have it on a USB memory stick too.
Try that with Vista? So Balmer will face a formidable challenge.
Fight for survival.
Nico Coesel
Schematic capture is quite allright (you'll still need too many clicks
to set parameters), but the PCB package has -IMHO- a severe flaw in
it: it doesn't link the traces and polygons to the nets. This may seem
unimportant but once you've made a short circuit PCB can't figure out
which net belongs to a trace. The result is a big mess which is
difficult to sort out.
I've raised this issue before, maybe DJ fixed this in the meanwhile?
Another thing with PCB is the footprint editing. It made me write some
C functions that can be used to put a footprint together. Positive
side effect is that the footprints are absolutely accurate so I can't
really call this a downside.
--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
JeffM
>The potential is for all men to be able to be a beast or a saint.
>So if you call Gates 'evil' then you are merely pointing out a facet
>that may very well be somewhere manifest in you too.
>
The same holds for the 3 individuals I named.
Not everyone has a broken moral compass.
In a properly-structured society, people who break the rules are
punished.
>It is a free world, and you can choose.
>
Point out a place where I can buy a PeeCee without Windoze installed
cheaper than I can buy one with Windoze--or even for the same price.
>Balmer is not dictating anything,
>
It's called momentum. M$ started early with their dirty tricks
and established an ill-gotten beachhead.
They figured that the slow nature of government and prosecution
might eventually cost them--but by then it wouldn't matter.
It would have been interesting to have seen the penalty phase
of US vs Microsoft come under a non-Republican administration
as the conviction did.
M$'s success is like the guy that brings home a feast to his family
which he got by murdering a guy who earned it fair and square
and was bringing it to HIS family.
bill....@ieee.org
Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (30 Nov 2006 11:15:09 -0800) it happened "JeffM"
> <jef...@email.com> wrote in
> <1164914109.8...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
>
> >Paul Burke wrote
> >>>>[...]their mindset is "must use open source software;
> >>>>closed source evil! Bill Gates is spawn of Satan!"
> >>>>
> >Joel Kolstad wrote:
> >>>You're telling me he isn't?
> >>>
> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
<snip>
> Remember in the evolution US committed genocide on the native Americans, we in
> Europe possibly did the same with 'Neandertalers'.
> The right of the strongest.
> There is nothing wrong with evolution and fighting.
There is quite a lot wrong with evolution by fighting - social animals
like us evolve by finding better and more efficient ways to cooperate,
and the development of Linux is very interesting and potentially
socially significant exercise in non-competitive development.
Microsoft's reaction to Linux has been to attempt to generate fear,
uncertainty and doubt, which isn't exactly constructive
> So, with all that 'character', make belief, illusions employed, an uncertain outcome
> for the human species, the _only_ thing that counts is how much of the time you
> can be happy.
> Your efficiency in percent is: 100 x days_happy / days_lived.
> And it does not matter if kill or let live, fight or live in peace.
It matters a lot - fighting is destructive, peace can be a time of
construction and positive development.
> What does matter is that you find how the inner workings of your brain are and
> chose happiness.
> Do meditation.
>
> So, as to the software, I wrote my programs because I needed the functionality,
> for study, for fun.
> Gate did the same, wrote a simple BASIC IIRC.
> He just knows how to make $$$ with it, so let him, it is a free world, capitalism,
So he was free to wipe out Netscape by making continuous changes to the
(crappy) Microsoft web-server of the period, so that Netscape kept on
crashing when dealing with a Microsoft URL
> I chose not to pay him those $$$, use Linux and write what I need.
> What Torvalds and others do I really do not care a lot, our vision on DRM is different.
> I have written 2 operating systems, a CP/M clone (in that time) and a windowing multitasker.
> If Linux goes in a direction that I find not agreeable I will write my own.
> For now it does what I need, server, communication, plays my TV and videos, not even need
> for faster hardware.
> I hope to get a Sony PS3 next year (March announced in Europe) and run Linux on it.
> Already there is Linux available for it now.
> That will up my speed and resolution to HDTV, give me blue ray playback all for 499 Euro.
> Goodbye PC, that thing (Cell processor) can run as server too, looks better then the
> beige box....
> But it is also easy to write a small multitasker and run on one of the Cell co-processors.
> It is a free world, and you can choose.
You can, maybe - it would take me ages to learn how to write an
operating system.
> Balmer is not dictating anything, he may think he does, but as long as there is competition
> he is always in danger of going belly up, I have seen big companies make big losses.
When you have 95% of the market the situation is a little more
predictable.
> The original idea of an 'operating system' was to make a standard interface for software
> to talk to the hardware, provide some basic functions.
> Both MS windows and Linux are getting a bit bloated, a lot actually, and not always better.
> The hardware will be getting faster....but power consumption should go way down.
Why? For modern CMOS power consumption is pretty much directly
proportional to clock frequency.
> Pro of Linux is that you can run it small, I have it on a USB memory stick too.
> Try that with Vista? So Balmer will face a formidable challenge.
> Fight for survival.
Balmer is stuck with fighting dirty ....
--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen (but in Sydney at the moment)
DJ Delorie
ni...@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) writes:
> it doesn't link the traces and polygons to the nets.
>
Nope, no change in this yet.
> Another thing with PCB is the footprint editing. It made me write some
> C functions that can be used to put a footprint together. Positive
> side effect is that the footprints are absolutely accurate so I can't
> really call this a downside.
Most of the footprints these days are either (1) edited in pcb itself,
or (2) pre-generated with your favorite language (I use perl, see
http://www.gedasymbols.org/user/dj_delorie/tools/dilpad.html for an
example)
The old way was to use M4 which was too obscure for most people,
although we still use it for the core libraries when it makes sense
to.
Christian Treldal
<snip>
> Just took a brief look - very interesting. I have a few questions I didn't
> notice while glancing through:
>
> 1. Is there any way to back annotate pcb changes to the schematic?
No not yet. Discussions about how to do is going on.
> 2. Does the pcb have full DRC?
Yes, and you can turn it off as well.
>
> 3. Can it generate a BOM?
Yes, in xx different ways, and it's very easy to make your own.
>
--
Vy73 de OZ1GNN
Christian Treldal
Geoff Harland
> gEDA runs on windows and mac too.
Can gEDA be compiled to run as a "standalone" Windows application, or is it
necessary to also run some type of (Linux-Windows) interface/emulation
program?
I could probably investigate this myself, but when I last looked at the gEDA
website (~ a month ago?), it wasn't obvious to me at that time that it could
be run on Windows. So can anyone provide any "off the cuff" clarification on
what is involved?
Regards,
Geoff Harland.
g_ha...@optum12net.cos.au
(Transpose m & s in address
provided - then also remove
cuberoot of 10^3 + 9^3 - 1^3.)
Robert Baer
amount of RAM, so much of the total 64Kbytes that there was only 56K of
TPA (Total Program space Available)!
And MPM was worse; only 48K TPA!
Then there was Wordstar that easily fit in that humongous space and
allowed one to easily and rapidly edit multiple megabyte text files.
And there were spreadsheet programs and database programs for DOS
that was as bad in memory useage.
Such memory hogs!
Mike Monett
> Den Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:38:15 -0500 skrev Mike Monett:
>
> <snip>
>> Just took a brief look - very interesting. I have a few questions I
>> didn't notice while glancing through:
>>
>> 1. Is there any way to back annotate pcb changes to the schematic?
>
> No not yet. Discussions about how to do is going on.
Thanks, Christian. This will become very interesting when back-annotation
is available.
Regards,
Mike Monett
Antiviral, Antibacterial Silver Solution:
http://silversol.freewebpage.org/index.htm
SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators:
http://silversol.freewebpage.org/spice/xtal/clapp.htm
Noise-Rejecting Wideband Sampler:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/add.automation/sampler/intro.htm
ivan
"DJ Delorie" <d...@delorie.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:xnwt5dj...@delorie.com...
you mean with cygwin? I could not see anithing about it in the
documentation...
ivan
"Geoff Harland" <g_ha...@optum12net.cos.au> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:456f965d$0$5748$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
ok I have found it!! you will find everything you need to install in
windows here:
http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:cygwin
have fun
The Real Andy
I bet if you were bill gates you would be happy..
Jan Panteltje
<jef...@email.com> wrote in
<1164928062.0...@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>:
>
>>It is a free world, and you can choose.
>>
>Point out a place where I can buy a PeeCee without Windoze installed
>cheaper than I can buy one with Windoze--or even for the same price.
There are several shops in the Netherlands that will be more then happy to
sell you the PC without windows.
And made to custom spec too ,and you can chose parts and configuration yourself.
www.alternate.nl
PC builder:
http://www.alternate.nl/html/includeStaticBig.html?treeName=Builder&file=BuildersInc
I just ran a test and ended up with a simple 324 Euro PC without OS.
Jan Panteltje
wrote in <1164932161.4...@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com>:
>You can, maybe - it would take me ages to learn how to write an
>operating system.
No it is simple.
>> The hardware will be getting faster....but power consumption should go way down.
>
>Why? For modern CMOS power consumption is pretty much directly
>proportional to clock frequency.
Intel has now 45nm working, article in German:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/81728
lower power consumption comes with it.
Jan Panteltje
<rober...@earthlink.net> wrote in
<b6Nbh.5966$1s6....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>:
> Once upon a time there was CP/M which used an absolutely stunning
>amount of RAM, so much of the total 64Kbytes that there was only 56K of
>TPA (Total Program space Available)!
> And MPM was worse; only 48K TPA!
> Then there was Wordstar that easily fit in that humongous space and
>allowed one to easily and rapidly edit multiple megabyte text files.
> And there were spreadsheet programs and database programs for DOS
>that was as bad in memory useage.
> Such memory hogs!
Yea, what do we need Vista for ;-)
Geoff Harland
> Geoff Harland wrote
> > DJ Delorie wrote
> > > gEDA runs on windows and mac too.
> >
> > Can gEDA be compiled to run as a "standalone" Windows application, or is
> > it necessary to also run some type of (Linux-Windows)
interface/emulation
> > program?
> >
> > I could probably investigate this myself, but when I last looked at the
> > gEDA website (~ a month ago?), it wasn't obvious to me at that time
> > that it could be run on Windows. So can anyone provide any "off the
> > cuff" clarification on what is involved?
>
> windows here:
> http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:cygwin
> have fun
Thanks for the tip; I don't know if I would have found that page otherwise.
And I'll certainly have a go at building and running gEDA when I can find a
bit of time.
ivan
"Ian Bell" <ruffr...@yahoo.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:456f261e.0@entanet...
this sounds good, can't quite figure out how to convert capture libraries
and schematics....
I quote from ftp site:
Orcad to eeschema converter (tested only on Orcad SDT386 files)
liborcad2eeschema is the Orcad library to eeschema library converter
Usage:
1 decompile Orcad library file ( i.e. convert it to is ascii form).
Usualy the Orcad lib is something as file.lib and is decompiled form is
file.src
....how do you decompile .lib into .src?
2 Run liborcad2eeschema.exe with the two args <file.src> <libeeschema.lib>,
i.e.:
liborcad2eeschema.exe file.src libeeschema.lib
orc2eeschema.exe is the Orcad Schematic to eschema schematic converter
1 Create an library archive (with Orcad Libarch) (something as
mylibarch.src)
....when I create an archive it just copies the project into a different
dir, managed to create a lib with the design cache but then I am back to
square one.
2 Convert Orcad Schematic to .aex form( exchange form)
3 for each .aex file run
....again, could not find how
orc2eeschema.exe <source orcad> <output eeschema> <mylibarch> (with no
extension for filenames)
4 - Add mylibarch.lib to eeschema list libraries (in first position)
5 - Global Labels must be adjusted in eeschema.
....it is quite unfortunate that there is no development support for these
tools, in fact it would be nice to be able to convert orcad pcb layout files
too...
thanks
ivan
Rich Grise
> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>It is a free world, and you can choose.
>>
> Point out a place where I can buy a PeeCee without Windoze installed
> cheaper than I can buy one with Windoze--or even for the same price.
Fry's.
Cheers!
Rich
Joel Kolstad
"Robert Baer" <rober...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:b6Nbh.5966$1s6....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Then there was Wordstar that easily fit in that humongous space and
> allowed one to easily and rapidly edit multiple megabyte text files.
I've used Wordstar on a CP/M machine and, yeah, it was quite impressive for
the time, but I distinctly remember that there were plenty of 3-5 second
pauses depending on what you were doing while the program went and loaded an
overlay, loaded the next section of your file, etc. I think there have been
significant productivity gains with modern word processors like Word of
OpenOffice Writer.
> And there were spreadsheet programs and database programs for DOS that was
> as bad in memory useage.
> Such memory hogs!
It's kinda a resource thing... gas is cheaper in the U.S. than in other
countries, so we drive bigger cars... memory is dirt cheap everywhere, so
people write bigger programs... :-)
Rich Grise
> On a sunny day (Fri, 01 Dec 2006 03:14:15 GMT) it happened Robert Baer
>
>>amount of RAM, so much of the total 64Kbytes that there was only 56K of
>>TPA (Total Program space Available)!
>> And MPM was worse; only 48K TPA!
>> Then there was Wordstar that easily fit in that humongous space and
>>allowed one to easily and rapidly edit multiple megabyte text files.
>> And there were spreadsheet programs and database programs for DOS
>>that was as bad in memory useage.
>> Such memory hogs!
>
> Yea, what do we need Vista for ;-)
So the kiddies can play "Kill the Humans" with photo-grade animation? =:-O
Thanks,
Rich
Rich Grise
I once worked as a programmer at some outfit that had MP/M 8-16 -
essentially, multi-user CPM. (dual processor - 1 ea. 8085 and 1 ea. 8086.)
I was one of about five users; we each had a dumb terminal. Everybody used
WordStar (which actually was kinda pleasant to use), but it bogged down so
bad that the boss started calling it "WordHog."
Cheers!
Rich
Mike Monett
> I've used Wordstar on a CP/M machine and, yeah, it was quite
> impressive for the time, but I distinctly remember that there were
> plenty of 3-5 second pauses depending on what you were doing while the
> program went and loaded an overlay, loaded the next section of your
> file, etc. I think there have been significant productivity gains
> with modern word processors like Word of OpenOffice Writer.
floppies, but disappeared when I upgraded to hard disks. Two Seagate ST412,
10 megabytes each. They held everything needed to run a small business -
accounting, engineering, inventory, billing, customer correspondence, and
plenty of room left over for growth.
Over two decades later, we now need 1 gig of ram, 2 gigs of hard disk
space, and 1 GHz cpu just to install the operating system.
And the word processor still works as if you were using floppies:)
Joel Kolstad
"Mike Monett" <N...@email.adr> wrote in message
news:Xns988C9A1BF2...@208.49.80.251...
> I also started with Wordstar on CP/M. The delay was quite apparent on
> floppies, but disappeared when I upgraded to hard disks.
I never had the luxury of hard disks with CP/M... first hard disk I
encountered was on a PC, and also 10MB. (And the first non-PC I had with a
hard drive was an Amiga, with an ST296N... 80MB... seemed limitless!)
> Over two decades later, we now need 1 gig of ram, 2 gigs of hard disk
> space, and 1 GHz cpu just to install the operating system.
Sure, but the price has dropped substantially... you can get a respectable PC
for <$500, complete, these days!
BTW, nice web page you have on crystal oscillators and SPICE.
---Joel
Andy Peters
> Christian Treldal <ch...@taarnkammeret.dk> wrote:
>
> > Den Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:38:15 -0500 skrev Mike Monett:
> >
> > <snip>
> >> Just took a brief look - very interesting. I have a few questions I
> >> didn't notice while glancing through:
> >>
> >> 1. Is there any way to back annotate pcb changes to the schematic?
> >
> > No not yet. Discussions about how to do is going on.
>
> Thanks, Christian. This will become very interesting when back-annotation
> is available.
Indeed. I haven't dug deep enough into it yet, but I'm hoping that the
PCB tool has a feature to re-do refdeses based on board location, then
back-annotate that to the schematic.
-a
Robert Baer
But Microsoft writes programs that *demand* more resources than the
typical PC being sold at time of release.
"Vista" is a very good example of this nasty behavior.
Mike Monett
>> Over two decades later, we now need 1 gig of ram, 2 gigs of hard
>> disk space, and 1 GHz cpu just to install the operating system.
> Sure, but the price has dropped substantially. You can get a
> respectable PC for <$500, complete, these days!
So true. I bought a bunch of IBM XT's when they came out. I think
they were something like $7,500 each. But that got rid of the
Selectrics.
Our biggest problem was when a secretary accidentally loaded
command.com into Wordstar, then followed our strict instructions to
save everything before exiting the program.
Command.com formatted in Wordstar doesn't work. They would burst
into tears thinking they were going to be fired for wrecking the
computer.
> BTW, nice web page you have on crystal oscillators and SPICE.
Thanks very much. I plan to add a lot of new stuff on Pierce and
overtone oscillators, but haven't had much time lately. I'll post a
note when I finally get around to doing it.
BTW, if you have a web site and find you are wasting a lot of time
uploading files one by one, try Free FTP Manager:
http://www.download3000.com/download_10986.html
This was originally open source but was removed from the web. Then
some company grabbed it and added a spyware program to the
installation program.
You can just stop the installation of the spyware program and
continue with Free FTP manager. The installation will complain but
still allow you to do it. Then erase the spyware directory and you
now have a free ftp sync program.
Works like a charm, especially on web sites that limit the number of
users so you have to keep hammering until you finally connect.
> ---Joel
Robert Baer
> "Joel Kolstad" <JKolstad7...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I've used Wordstar on a CP/M machine and, yeah, it was quite
>>impressive for the time, but I distinctly remember that there were
>>plenty of 3-5 second pauses depending on what you were doing while the
>>program went and loaded an overlay, loaded the next section of your
>>file, etc. I think there have been significant productivity gains
>>with modern word processors like Word of OpenOffice Writer.
>
>
> I also started with Wordstar on CP/M. The delay was quite apparent on
> floppies, but disappeared when I upgraded to hard disks. Two Seagate ST412,
> 10 megabytes each. They held everything needed to run a small business -
> accounting, engineering, inventory, billing, customer correspondence, and
> plenty of room left over for growth.
>
> Over two decades later, we now need 1 gig of ram, 2 gigs of hard disk
> space, and 1 GHz cpu just to install the operating system.
>
> And the word processor still works as if you were using floppies:)
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Monett
Exactly my point!
Robert Baer
Lessee...an order of magnitude for the price decrease, but at least
*three* orders of magnitude for required resources.
Seems the tradeoff is not so good...
Joel Kolstad
> Lessee...an order of magnitude for the price decrease, but at least
> *three* orders of magnitude for required resources.
> Seems the tradeoff is not so good...
Next you're going to be telling me there's no reason to drive a Humvee to the
grocery store a mile away just to pick up eggs and milk when you could ride
your bicycle there instead. :-)
Chuck Harris
>> I never had the luxury of hard disks with CP/M... first hard disk I
>> encountered was on a PC, and also 10MB. (And the first non-PC I had
>> with a hard drive was an Amiga, with an ST296N... 80MB... seemed
>> limitless!)
>>
>>
>>> Over two decades later, we now need 1 gig of ram, 2 gigs of hard disk
>>> space, and 1 GHz cpu just to install the operating system.
>>
>>
>> Sure, but the price has dropped substantially... you can get a
>> respectable PC for <$500, complete, these days!
>>
>> BTW, nice web page you have on crystal oscillators and SPICE.
>>
>> ---Joel
>>
>>
> Lessee...an order of magnitude for the price decrease, but at least
> *three* orders of magnitude for required resources.
> Seems the tradeoff is not so good...
Really? How do you figure? Let's talk about resources:
1) a 20G drive is now the size of a stack of 5 credit cards
(remember the 20Mb Seagates?)
2) 1Gb of ram is now the size of a stick of chewing gum
(remember how big a 64k x1 ram chip was?)
3) a $500 PC typically fits inside of the LCD monitor.
(remember the IBM-PC/AT?)
The footprint on my desk for a modern PC is now tiny.
The power consumption of my current setup doesn't even register on the
power meter of my UPS. My previous setup drew 200W just for the
19 inch monitor.
My previous 19 inch monitor hurt my eyes, but my new LCD has text that
is equal to printed text in clarity.
My IBM-PC/AT cost $5000 with a 20Mb drive, and 128K of ram.
The Princeton Graphics monitor I used with it cost $800. The 30Mb
driver I replaced the unreliable 20Mb CMI drive with cost $800
Dare I talk of the price of the Laser Printer I used with this early
machine ($2450)
Resources as you are measuring them mean nothing!
-Chuck
Andy Peters
Ah, interesting.
So I tried it, and the configure script for libgeda-200601020 bombed
out looking for guile. For some reason, there's a hardcoded path for
it. Here's the output from that configure, which is called from "make
install" at the top of the geda directory tree:
libgeda-20061020/config.log:GUILE_LDFLAGS=' -lguile -lltdl
-L/home/janneke/vc/gub-dev/target/cygwin/system/usr/lib
-L/home/janneke/vc/gub-dev/target/cygwin/system/usr/bin
-L/home/janneke/vc/gub-dev/target/cygwin/system/usr/lib/w32api -lgmp
-lcrypt -lm -lltdl'
I know I'm not logged into cygwin as janneke ...
grepping through the entire gEDA tree for "janneke" turned it up only
in libgeda-20061020/config.log.
Very odd.
(The tools built and run well on a Mac Book Pro and OS X.)
-a
Mike Monett
> Lessee. An order of magnitude for the price decrease, but at least
> *three* orders of magnitude for required resources.
> Seems the tradeoff is not so good.
I still use Borland Sprint as my main editor. It was released in
1988, and was designed to run on a 4.77MHz 8088 with several hundred
k of ram. It runs fine on modern cpu's.
The nice thing is it uses macros which you write yourself. I now
have the world's fastest and most powerful editor. It can open 26
files simultaneously, and it autodetects all the different file
types, such as html, Pascal, Assembly, C, plain ascii text, email,
etc.
This means I can use the same function key to perform the same
function, such as formatting a paragraph. For example, F4 formats
this entire message in square justification. In Pascal and C, the
same function key indents each line to identify blocks of code, like
this:
begin
GetFileName(true, cpos);
if (ErrorNum = 0) then
begin
case FileOption('Change Date on') of
'A' : Msv := AMBF;
'F' : Msv := FileStr;
else
exit;
end;
if (Msv > '') then
begin
DosExec(TouchFDate, Msv);
UpDateFiles;
GetSpot;
end;
end;
end;
The software automatically switches to the appropriate routine
needed for that file type, so I don't have to have a dozen different
editors, each with their own keystroke definitions.
This is a real problem when one editor uses one keystroke to
accomplish a function, and another editor uses a different keystroke
for the same function. You can never learn which keystroke to use
for each editor. This makes editing extremely error-prone, and it
can slow you down by an order of magnitude.
Robert Baer
Better yet....a 4 letter word.... w a l k .
Robert Baer
Sigh! One cannot price nostalga!
Robert Baer
Yup! there are a number of DOS-type programs that run circles around
WinDoze crap.
Jan Panteltje
<N...@email.adr> wrote in <Xns988CBA01E5...@208.49.80.251>:
> The software automatically switches to the appropriate routine
> needed for that file type, so I don't have to have a dozen different
> editors, each with their own keystroke definitions.
>
> This is a real problem when one editor uses one keystroke to
> accomplish a function, and another editor uses a different keystroke
> for the same function. You can never learn which keystroke to use
> for each editor. This makes editing extremely error-prone, and it
> can slow you down by an order of magnitude.
I like the software formatting, great.
But I wonder why the variable spaces to nicely get the left border straight
in the above text.
Spaces are as apuse in spoken text, all these different pauses between words..
Personally I use 'joe' in Linux, it is great for programming, reminds a bit
of wordstar.
My last DOS editor was 'boxer' even have a license for it.
Jan Panteltje
<rober...@earthlink.net> wrote in
<Qv9ch.5584$sf5....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>:
> Sigh! One cannot price nostalga!
Sure, some have a PDP10 at home.
Chuck Harris
I have a working PDP8/E in my shop... I probably ought to
turn it on sometime, and see if it is still working, or if
my memory of its working is just nostalgia.
I would sure like to find a nice Tektronix 4010 (or 4012),
or ASR33 to go with the 8/E... Something about using a Pentium
laptop with 20G HD to act as a terminal for a PDP8/E
bothers me.
-Chuck
Jan Panteltje
<cf-NO-SP...@erols.com> wrote in
<fp6dnQff1NNmM-zY...@rcn.net>:
I have an old NEC cashier terminal with RS232 in the attic.
All TTL, looks futuristic :-)
But it is kaput, started fixing it, but no diagram, use the PC for
terminal was easier.
It was in an unheated space, died when it once was -20 C.
No microprocessor that I could find, all true TTL!
Jan Panteltje
<pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote in <eksbo0$b0i$1...@news.datemas.de>:
>I have an old NEC cashier terminal with RS232 in the attic.
>All TTL, looks futuristic :-)
Actually it is a NCR, not NEC, just looked.
Ian Bell
>
> "Ian Bell" <ruffr...@yahoo.co.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio
>>
>> Try kicad at http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/index.html
>>
>> It is very good, completely free and work both on Windows and Linux.
>>
>> Ian
>
> this sounds good, can't quite figure out how to convert capture libraries
> and schematics....
> I quote from ftp site:
>
snip
>
>
> ....it is quite unfortunate that there is no development support for these
> tools, in fact it would be nice to be able to convert orcad pcb layout
> files too...
>
I do not know the answers to these questions myself. But there is a very
active Kicad user group at yahoo which I moderate. I know many users have
successfully imported Orcad libraries so if you join the group I am sure
they will be able to tell you exactly what to do. The yahoo group is at:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-users/
HTH
ian
Michael A. Terrell
Three miles each way on a busy highway, no sidewalks and use my
cane? You're insane.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Robert Baer
*wide* carriage version.
It is in Visalia CA and free for the asking.
Robert Baer
> Robert Baer wrote:
>
>>Joel Kolstad wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Robert Baer" <rober...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>news:cA0ch.6173$1s6....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Lessee...an order of magnitude for the price decrease, but at least
>>>>*three* orders of magnitude for required resources.
>>>> Seems the tradeoff is not so good...
>>>
>>>
>>>Next you're going to be telling me there's no reason to drive a Humvee to the
>>>grocery store a mile away just to pick up eggs and milk when you could ride
>>>your bicycle there instead. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Better yet....a 4 letter word.... w a l k .
>
>
>
> Three miles each way on a busy highway, no sidewalks and use my
> cane? You're insane.
>
>
You need the exercise; good for the heart and the body.
I walk 3 miles in about 30 minutes on a good day, and about 45
minutes if lazy.
joseph2k
If you had read the post, try walking 3 miles when you require a cane or two
just to walk at all.
--
JosephKK
Gegen dummheit kampfen die Gotter Selbst, vergebens.
--Schiller
Michael A. Terrell
>
> You need the exercise; good for the heart and the body.
> I walk 3 miles in about 30 minutes on a good day, and about 45
> minutes if lazy.
Good for you. I can no longer walk more than 1/4 mile, and I sure as
hell can't carry 50 pounds or more for three miles. I am gasping for
air and ready to faint if I try to push it too far. Two years ago I
could walk to the entrance of my subdivision (1/2 mile), rest on a bench
at the Church on the corner for a half hour and walk back home. If you
live long enough you will have health problems, as well.
I am 54, and 100% disabled. Six years ago I was in decent health. I
was working full time in aerospace electronics, and spending hours a day
on my feet. Some days its all that I can do to walk to the bathroom,
and I have to do that barefoot, because I have a very poor sense of
balance.
Michael A. Terrell
Not to mention in traffic that is moving at 55 MPH. It is along Hwy.
441, south of Ocala. No sidewalks, and some places you would have to
walk on the asphalt to go around fenced off retention ponds.
Rich the Philosophizer
> Robert Baer wrote:
>>
>> You need the exercise; good for the heart and the body.
>> I walk 3 miles in about 30 minutes on a good day, and about 45
>> minutes if lazy.
>
> Good for you. I can no longer walk more than 1/4 mile, and I sure as
> hell can't carry 50 pounds or more for three miles. I am gasping for
> air and ready to faint if I try to push it too far. Two years ago I
> could walk to the entrance of my subdivision (1/2 mile), rest on a bench
> at the Church on the corner for a half hour and walk back home. If you
> live long enough you will have health problems, as well.
>
> I am 54, and 100% disabled. Six years ago I was in decent health. I
> was working full time in aerospace electronics, and spending hours a day
> on my feet. Some days its all that I can do to walk to the bathroom,
> and I have to do that barefoot, because I have a very poor sense of
> balance.
Have you contemplated alternative approaches?
Here's an idea:
http://healingtowholeness.com/
It involves mind control, a lot like hypnosis, but it's working for
me.
Good Luck!
Rich
Joel Kolstad
news:pan.2006.12.06....@example.com...
> Have you contemplated alternative approaches?
I have first dibs on hiring Michael if he does recover. :-)
JeffM
>>>I am 54, and 100% disabled.
>>>
>I have first dibs on hiring Michael if he does recover. :-)
...but will he move from sub-tropical small town
to a big city in the rain forest?
The Real Andy
>Christian Treldal <ch...@taarnkammeret.dk> wrote:
>
>> Den Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:28:01 +0100 skrev ivan:
>
>>> hi,
>>>
>>> what is a good free capture and layout software?
>>>
>>> Ivan
>
>> http://www.geda.seul.org/
>
>Just took a brief look - very interesting. I have a few questions I didn't
>notice while glancing through:
>
>1. Is there any way to back annotate pcb changes to the schematic?
>
>2. Does the pcb have full DRC?
>
>3. Can it generate a BOM?
>
>Regards,
>
>Mike Monett
>
>Antiviral, Antibacterial Silver Solution:
> http://silversol.freewebpage.org/index.htm
>SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators:
> http://silversol.freewebpage.org/spice/xtal/clapp.htm
>Noise-Rejecting Wideband Sampler:
> http://www3.sympatico.ca/add.automation/sampler/intro.htm
I had a play with geda the other day. It is free, so I guess one cant
complain, but the interface is just plain horrible and unproductive.
Add to that its like using the old dos protel.
DJ Delorie
The Real Andy <will_get_back_to_you_on_This@b.c> writes:
> but the interface is just plain horrible and unproductive.
Could you be more specific?
Joel Kolstad
news:1165372611....@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
Small city (Grants Pass/Rogue River in Southern Oregon) and not nearly as wet
as Portland (which is actually considered a downside by some... there's a big
sign downtown across one of the main streets here that says, "It's the
Climate!" -- the running joke is that it's actually an apology :-) ).
I've lived in the Willamete Valley in Oregon for the past 12 years now, from
one end of the state to the other, and I've always been quite pleased with the
climate.
Ian Bell
>
> I had a play with geda the other day. It is free, so I guess one cant
> complain, but the interface is just plain horrible and unproductive.
> Add to that its like using the old dos protel.
Try kicad, it is also free but has a much better UI.
http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/index.html
Ian
Ales Hvezda
Yes, as DJ points out, some specifics would be nice.
* Which of the "geda" program(s) did you try?
* Which version?
* What platform/OS did you run it on?
* What was wrong with it?
This information would better help us understand why "the interface
is plain horrible and unproductive". The interface takes a little
time to get used to, but once you are familiar with it, the interface
is quite unintrusive.
It seems kind of silly, odd, and rather unproductive to post a short
negative quib and then not respond for more info requests. Especially
since constructive bug/usability reports are taken seriously by myself
and the other gEDA developers.
-Ales
--
Ales Hvezda
ahv...@seul.org
http://geda.seul.org
jasen
> I still use Borland Sprint as my main editor. It was released in
> 1988, and was designed to run on a 4.77MHz 8088 with several hundred
> k of ram. It runs fine on modern cpu's.
>
> The nice thing is it uses macros which you write yourself. I now
> have the world's fastest and most powerful editor.
no, emacs is the worlds most powerful editor... at 30+MB it's a bit
larger than sprint though,
> It can open 26
> files simultaneously, and it autodetects all the different file
> types, such as html, Pascal, Assembly, C, plain ascii text, email,
> etc.
only 26?
emacs has an entire usenet client (gnus) written it its scripting language,
(some sort of LISP) also a couple of games (incl eliza and tetris)
> This means I can use the same function key to perform the same
> function, such as formatting a paragraph. For example, F4 formats
> this entire message in square justification. In Pascal and C, the
> same function key indents each line to identify blocks of code, like
> this:
having a good text editor is handy
Bye.
Jasen
Mike Monett
jasen <ja...@free.net.nz> wrote:
> On 2006-12-01, Mike Monett <N...@email.adr> wrote:
>> I still use Borland Sprint as my main editor. It was released in
>> 1988, and was designed to run on a 4.77MHz 8088 with several
>> hundred k of ram. It runs fine on modern cpu's.
>> The nice thing is it uses macros which you write yourself. I now
>> have the world's fastest and most powerful editor.
> no, emacs is the worlds most powerful editor. At 30+MB it's a bit
> larger than sprint though,
Sprint has a macro package to emulate Emacs as well as a dozen other
editors. I prefer the old Wordstar keyboard commands, probably
because that's what I started with.
I cannot believe software can require tens of megabytes. That cannot
all be executable code. There has to be other things that take up
all that room, such as images or old leftover code.
>> It can open 26 files simultaneously, and it autodetects all the
>> different file types, such as html, Pascal, Assembly, C, plain
>> ascii text, email, etc.
> only 26?
That's about three times as many as I can keep track of at once:)
> emacs has an entire usenet client (gnus) written it its scripting
> language, (some sort of LISP) also a couple of games (incl eliza
> and tetris)
I can play the Towers of Hanoi:)
>> This means I can use the same function key to perform the same
>> function, such as formatting a paragraph. For example, F4 formats
>> this entire message in square justification. In Pascal and C, the
>> same function key indents each line to identify blocks of code,
>> like this:
> having a good text editor is handy
> Bye.
> Jasen
Regards,
Chuck Harris
> jasen <ja...@free.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > On 2006-12-01, Mike Monett <N...@email.adr> wrote:
>
> >> I still use Borland Sprint as my main editor. It was released in
> >> 1988, and was designed to run on a 4.77MHz 8088 with several
> >> hundred k of ram. It runs fine on modern cpu's.
>
> >> The nice thing is it uses macros which you write yourself. I now
> >> have the world's fastest and most powerful editor.
>
> > no, emacs is the worlds most powerful editor. At 30+MB it's a bit
> > larger than sprint though,
>
> Sprint has a macro package to emulate Emacs as well as a dozen other
> editors. I prefer the old Wordstar keyboard commands, probably
> because that's what I started with.
Emulating the key stroke commands of emacs is hardly at all like emulating
emacs.
>
> I cannot believe software can require tens of megabytes. That cannot
> all be executable code. There has to be other things that take up
> all that room, such as images or old leftover code.
There are no images in emacs, and the code is all real. Go check out
the source, it is all open and available to you.
-Chuck
Joel Kolstad
news:Xns9894C5C3ED...@208.49.80.251...
> I cannot believe software can require tens of megabytes. That cannot
> all be executable code. There has to be other things that take up
> all that room, such as images or old leftover code.
EMACS is often described as more like an operating system that happens to
use a text editor as its "desktop." Of that 30MB, for the average person
editing a text file, probably something under 300kB is being "exercised."
Mike Monett
> EMACS is often described as more like an operating system that
> happens to use a text editor as its "desktop." Of that 30MB, for
> the average person editing a text file, probably something under
> 300kB is being "exercised."
Apparently a great deal of code is devoted to handling images and
fonts for different languages. That might take some space, but it's
still difficult to see how that could add up to 30 megs.
The basic idea of extensibility is the key advantage. Here is a 1981
paper by Richard Stallman, describing the design of the original
Emacs:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EMACS is a real-time display editor which can be extended by the
user while it is running.
Extensibility means that the user can add new editing commands or
change old ones to fit his editing needs, while he is editing.
EMACS is written in a modular fashion, composed of many separate
and independent functions. The user extends EMACS by adding or
replacing functions, writing their definitions in the same
language that was used to write the original EMACS system. We will
explain below why this is the only method of extension which is
practical in use: others are theoretically equally good but
discourage use, or discourage nontrivial use.
Extensibility makes EMACS more flexible than any other editor.
Users are not limited by the decisions made by the EMACS
implementors. What we decide is not worth while to add, the user
can provide for himself. He can just as easily provide his own
alternative to a feature if he does not like the way it works in
the standard system.
A coherent set of new and redefined functions can be bound into a
library so that the user can load them together conveniently.
Libraries enable users to publish and share their extensions,
which then become effectively part of the basic system. By this
route, many people can contribute to the development of the
system, for the most part without interfering with each other.
This has led the EMACS system to become more powerful than any
previous editor.
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-paper.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sprint is also an extensible editor that runs in DOS. You can write
your own macros and make it do whatever you want. You can exchange
macros with other users and take advantage of the time they spent
debugging their code.
This is much better than editors with canned instructions that you
cannot change.
jasen
> jasen <ja...@free.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > On 2006-12-01, Mike Monett <N...@email.adr> wrote:
>
> >> I still use Borland Sprint as my main editor. It was released in
> >> 1988, and was designed to run on a 4.77MHz 8088 with several
> >> hundred k of ram. It runs fine on modern cpu's.
>
> >> The nice thing is it uses macros which you write yourself. I now
> >> have the world's fastest and most powerful editor.
>
> > no, emacs is the worlds most powerful editor. At 30+MB it's a bit
> > larger than sprint though,
>
> Sprint has a macro package to emulate Emacs as well as a dozen other
> editors.
does the macro package include a full lisp interpreter? ;^>
> I prefer the old Wordstar keyboard commands, probably
> because that's what I started with.
>
> I cannot believe software can require tens of megabytes. That cannot
> all be executable code. There has to be other things that take up
> all that room, such as images or old leftover code.
there's a gui but only a few kilobytes of images are involved in that,
there's the on-line help 1700K of compressed files.
the binary itself is over 4 megabytes, containg a lisp interpreter and an
editor with both gui and console modes,
by far the bulk of the package is the extensions written in emacs-lisp.
28 'games',
an email client
a bunch of network plugins
a bunch of different text editing modes , sgml, roff, tex, etc...
support for 21 different programming languages, from ada to VHDL
a usenet client (gnus - occasionally i've seen it in peoples header lines)
modes for different (human) languages (apparently no special mode for klingon yet)
losts of stuff I don't even know about...
> > emacs has an entire usenet client (gnus) written it its scripting
> > language, (some sort of LISP) also a couple of games (incl eliza
> > and tetris)
>
> I can play the Towers of Hanoi:)
got that too. life, pong, blackbox, etc...
it just whipped me in a game of gomoku.
--
Bye.
Jasen