Rötschreck (Again, I know, I'm sorry...)
Shockwave
Is there any disadvantage whatsoever in packing this, or any way to
reliably foible it? I ask because in a regular 5 player group, we've
now got 3 decks all regularily packing it (all Agg Hand, so
Imm.Grapple / Thoughts to void the Agg in the first place is out) and
it's beginning to get tedious. It just seems supremely 'usable'
compared to the few counters it has, hell, it's not even a Frenzy
*resists the urge to vent, lore wise* on the card, but Sire's defeats
it, which I'm a little bewildered about. Does this mean Tranquility
does too?
Also, I did want to query LSJ on the thinking behind when it's played.
(Incidentally, it's your ball, your game, so I'm not trying to argue
against it, rather understand how you got there!) because I keep
coming back to the word 'inflict' on the card, and thinking that the
Strike Announcement phase is just the Minion choosing a Strike, they
don't 'inflict' anything until resolution, surely?
As you invariably can't Sudden it (as you're invariably the Acting
Minion) I'm just searching for ideas here, because the card probably
vexes me more than anything else in the whole game right now.
Ah well, at least it's not a thread on dealmaking, eh? *Grin*
- Dave
coincoi...@hotmail.com
and wait for them to announce both strikes to play Rotschreck on one
of the two strikes ^^
Martin.C...@googlemail.com
I thought both Psyche! and Telepathic Tracking got round Rotschreck
now - or has that changed in my absence?
Bram Vink
If it is that prevalent, there's a viable, workable way to metagame
against it.
How to beat it is this:
Psyche/Telepathic Tracking.
Very viable cards in their own right, they also almost completely
negate the effect of rötschreck.
If you start a new combat or round, this portion of rötschreck: "This
vampire is tapped and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap as
normal. During this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card." is
lost.
Also, not letting them get into combat out of their own turn is a good
option. Build a deck with enough stealth (say, 25+ cards) and perhaps
a few change of targets to make them clog in their combat if they do
happen to catch you.
Cheers,
B
Kalle Cederström
tony...@gmail.com
As has been mentioned:
Psyche!
Telepathic Tracking
Abombwe has metric loads of combat/modifiers that shields you from
frenzy
Blade of Enoch and Sire´s Index Finger.
So, yes Rotschreck is indeed a Frenzy card.
nys...@cs.com
Shockwave wrote:
> Excuse my soapboxing, I'm totally aware I am doing it. :)
>
> Is there any disadvantage whatsoever in packing this, or any way to
> reliably foible it?
Someone else just mentioned psyche/telepathic tracking. I think
that's the only reliable counter -- once rotschreck has been
legitimately played.
But if you are expecting ag hand damage + rotschreck, you can go to
long range, or stealth past it, or end combat before strikes are
chosen (IIRC, Alpha Glint, Mariel Lady Thunder, Elesium the Arboretum)
or can play Song of Serentity before range is chosen and reduce their
ag-hand damage to zero.
And, though I have never seen a ruling on this, I suspect you can play
skin of night (or similar effect) before range is chosen, making it
impossible for anyone to "attempt to inflict ag damage" on you in any
meaningful sense of the word "attempt" thereafter.
You could just make an imbued deck -- or other ally-based deck, and
play it until they all get bored of their now useless Rotschrecks.
Orpheus
> Very viable cards in their own right, they also almost completely
> negate the effect of rötschreck.
> If you start a new combat or round, this portion of rötschreck: "This
> vampire is tapped and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap as
> normal. During this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card." is
> lost.
Are you sure about that ? I mean, the part about not going to torpor, sure,
but for some reason we've always played it so that the untap part stays,
because the card has been played on the minion and is there during the untap
phase...
--
Orpheus
--------------------
"Never Kill Again To Live Another Golden Day", the James Bond movie you'll
never see.
LSJ
> Is there any disadvantage whatsoever in packing this, or any way to
Card slot, same as any card.
If you play it, there's opportunity cost and MPA cost and OOT blocking.
> reliably foible it? I ask because in a regular 5 player group, we've
> now got 3 decks all regularily packing it (all Agg Hand, so
> Imm.Grapple / Thoughts to void the Agg in the first place is out) and
> it's beginning to get tedious. It just seems supremely 'usable'
> compared to the few counters it has, hell, it's not even a Frenzy
> *resists the urge to vent, lore wise* on the card, but Sire's defeats
> it, which I'm a little bewildered about. Does this mean Tranquility
> does too?
>
> Also, I did want to query LSJ on the thinking behind when it's played.
And remember, I didn't design the card.
> (Incidentally, it's your ball, your game, so I'm not trying to argue
> against it, rather understand how you got there!) because I keep
> coming back to the word 'inflict' on the card, and thinking that the
> Strike Announcement phase is just the Minion choosing a Strike, they
> don't 'inflict' anything until resolution, surely?
Try going back to the word "attempt" instead.
Choosing your strike constitutes the attempt.
> As you invariably can't Sudden it (as you're invariably the Acting
> Minion) I'm just searching for ideas here, because the card probably
> vexes me more than anything else in the whole game right now.
Agg hands is avoided by being at long range.
Or by reducing the striker's strength to zero before the strike announcement.
LSJ
They get 'round the torpor effect, which is what most players are after. The do
not untap effect from the card being in play still applies, however.
Shockwave
> Shockwave wrote:
> > Is there any disadvantage whatsoever in packing this, or any way to
>
> Card slot, same as any card.
> If you play it, there's opportunity cost and MPA cost and OOT blocking.
>
> > reliably foible it? I ask because in a regular 5 player group, we've
> > now got 3 decks all regularily packing it (all Agg Hand, so
> > Imm.Grapple / Thoughts to void the Agg in the first place is out) and
> > it's beginning to get tedious. It just seems supremely 'usable'
> > compared to the few counters it has, hell, it's not even a Frenzy
> > *resists the urge to vent, lore wise* on the card, but Sire's defeats
> > it, which I'm a little bewildered about. Does this mean Tranquility
> > does too?
>
> > Also, I did want to query LSJ on the thinking behind when it's played.
>
> And remember, I didn't design the card.
Totally, no attempt at 'blame' being made! I was more curious on the
ruling than the card, the hatred is totally directed at the card
itself :)
>
> > (Incidentally, it's your ball, your game, so I'm not trying to argue
> > against it, rather understand how you got there!) because I keep
> > coming back to the word 'inflict' on the card, and thinking that the
> > Strike Announcement phase is just the Minion choosing a Strike, they
> > don't 'inflict' anything until resolution, surely?
>
> Try going back to the word "attempt" instead.
> Choosing your strike constitutes the attempt.
That makes more sense at least, rereading it. I personally don't
agree, but yes, I can see how you got there.
Time to make !Tor guns for both, I guess. *Grin*
tbz_...@hotmail.com
Just cos you know I love pissing on your chips, that'll just make me
pack more chiropterans / breath of the dragons. :P Also, unless
they're some pretty scary guns, why would I waste a rotty on them?
a-e
all you need is to pack some drawing out the beast's if you are
playing tzimisce to counter cel guns
rptre...@aol.com
> > Just cos you know I love pissing on your chips, that'll just make me
> > pack more chiropterans / breath of the dragons. :P Also, unless
> > they're some pretty scary guns, why would I waste a rotty on them?
>
> all you need is to pack some drawing out the beast's if you are
> playing tzimisce to counter cel guns-
Always find that a little risky vs. cel/CEL guns as that gives them
+1str with a blur (not uncommon in that deck :o) that's 6 damage from
a CEL vamp... which is not very funny unless you put them down with
Chi Maraud etc. first.
witness1
> Excuse my soapboxing, I'm totally aware I am doing it. :)
>
> Is there any disadvantage whatsoever in packing this, or any way to
> reliably foible it? I ask because in a regular 5 player group, we've
> now got 3 decks all regularily packing it (all Agg Hand, so
> Imm.Grapple / Thoughts to void the Agg in the first place is out) and
> it's beginning to get tedious. It just seems supremely 'usable'
> compared to the few counters it has, hell, it's not even a Frenzy
> *resists the urge to vent, lore wise* on the card, but Sire's defeats
> it, which I'm a little bewildered about. Does this mean Tranquility
> does too?
It is a Frenzy card by most recent printing. Yes, Tranquility works.
witness1
Salem
> Shockwave wrote:
>> Excuse my soapboxing, I'm totally aware I am doing it. :)
>>
>> Is there any disadvantage whatsoever in packing this, or any way to
>> reliably foible it?
> And, though I have never seen a ruling on this, I suspect you can play
> skin of night (or similar effect) before range is chosen, making it
> impossible for anyone to "attempt to inflict ag damage" on you in any
> meaningful sense of the word "attempt" thereafter.
that is not the case. the damage is still aggravated. it is only how the
vampire who played SoN handles that aggravated damage that changes with
SoN. Rotschrek doesn't care how the minion might handle it, it just
needs there to be agg damage (that will work at the current range).
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
Orpheus
> vampire who played SoN handles that aggravated damage that changes with
> SoN. Rotschrek doesn't care how the minion might handle it, it just needs
> there to be agg damage (that will work at the current range).
And if you want a background explanation, it's very easy : the vampire sees
he's attacked by fire, or threatened with aggravated damage, and he panics :
combat stops and he goes into frenzy, before he gets hit. Simple as that
(although in the RPG only fire / sunlight / maybe being hit for aggravs
could do that, I think).
--
"All Hail the Lords of the Night !"
Orpheus
Shockwave
> he's attacked by fire, or threatened with aggravated damage, and he panics :
> combat stops and he goes into frenzy, before he gets hit. Simple as that
> (although in the RPG only fire / sunlight / maybe being hit for aggravs
> could do that, I think).
Actually Orpheus, that's exactly why I don't agree (personally once
again, I'm not advocating everyone change because of my opinion) with
the card. If Strikes are resolved simultaneously, then Rotshreck
should be an additional effect to the Strike, and be played when
they're resolved (because that's when the minion 'performs' it) rather
than just when they choose it.
But hey, we've time & time again noted that cards & background do not
(and sometimes, nor should they) gel appropriately. :)
But it's nice to know it's actually a Frenzy card now, I don't own any
copies of it since reprinting and Monger doesn't mention it.
LSJ
>> And if you want a background explanation, it's very easy : the vampire sees
>> he's attacked by fire, or threatened with aggravated damage, and he panics :
>> combat stops and he goes into frenzy, before he gets hit. Simple as that
>> (although in the RPG only fire / sunlight / maybe being hit for aggravs
>> could do that, I think).
>
> Actually Orpheus, that's exactly why I don't agree (personally once
> again, I'm not advocating everyone change because of my opinion) with
> the card. If Strikes are resolved simultaneously, then Rotshreck
> should be an additional effect to the Strike, and be played when
> they're resolved (because that's when the minion 'performs' it) rather
> than just when they choose it.
Consider "choosing" you strike as readying it (in the view of your opponent).
Pop your claws and show them to your opponent as you get ready to scratch.
Or point your flamethrower at your opponent.
He panics and runs to ground before you swing or squeeze the trigger. (Before
strike resolution.)
Dasein
It is a frenzy card.
It is beaten by:
Psyche
Telepathic Tracking
Tranquility
A whole host of Abombwe cards
Index Finder
Blade of Enoch
Armor of Caine's Fury
Call the Wild Hunt
And don't forget... Mirror Walk. Avoids combat entirely.
Mirror Walk hoses block/fight decks so badly it's embarassing.
They jam on their intercept AND combat. Combine with stuff that makes
it unpleasant to attempt to block, like Croc Tongue or Dominion or
Camm Exemplerary or whatever.
It is a strong card, but there are plenty of ways around Rotschreck.
Klai...@gmail.com
>
> - Näytä siteerattu teksti -
Also make sure your packing Lord Aaron Wesley Wilkshire in your cel
gun deck so they have to pay pool just to attempt to rotsch. That you
can then psyche through anyway. ;)
XZealot
What about?
Fast Reaction
Coordinate Attacks
Hidden Lurker
Follow the Alpha
LSJ?
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
bwross
> And don't forget... Mirror Walk. Avoids combat entirely.
> Mirror Walk hoses block/fight decks so badly it's embarassing.
> They jam on their intercept AND combat.
Oh, they might well jam on combat (although the DNR clause makes it
hard to use a lot of Mirror Walk to shut them out), but they probably
aren't going to jam on intercept. Mirror Walk adds stealth, and if
you're using the "end action" part that can only mean that they've
taken the opportunity you've given them to play intercept. That's a
lot better flow than facing a bruise or combat deck that almost never
stealths.
Brent Ross
The Lasombra
>And, though I have never seen a ruling on this, I suspect you can play
>skin of night (or similar effect) before range is chosen, making it
>impossible for anyone to "attempt to inflict ag damage" on you in any
>meaningful sense of the word "attempt" thereafter.
This is covered in the FAQ, section 3.5.
http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_faq.htm
3.5. Can Rötschreck still be played...
---------
Can Rötschreck still be played at long range while the reacting minion
declares an aggravated hand strike?
No. Cannot be used if the "attempt to use aggravated damage" is not
applicable at the current range. The most common example is an
aggravated hand strike done at long range.
---------
Can I play a Rotschrek if I am attempting to do 0 aggravated hand
damage?
No.
---------
Minion A announced his Ivory Bow as a strike, and the opposing Minion
B played Blood Rage. Can Rötschreck be played on Minion B?
Yes.
Blood Rage does not resolve before the Strike Announcement phase,
which is when you play Rotschreck, so Rotschreck can still be played.
---------
Can Rötschreck still be played if the opposing minion plays a Strike:
Combat Ends?
Yes.
Rötschreck cares about the attempt to inflict aggravated damage, not
whether or not the strike will successfully resolve.
---------
Can Rötschreck still be played if the opposing minion is treating
aggravated damage as normal damage? What if they played a Skin of
Night, Armor of Terra, or Adaptability?
Yes.
Rötschreck cares about the attempt to inflict aggravated damage, not
whether or not the vampire receiving the damage can prevent it or
treat it as normal damage.
---------
Can Rötschreck still be played if the opposing minion has a Flak
Jacket, Leather Jacket, or some other way to prevent the damage?
Yes.
Rötschreck cares about the attempt to inflict aggravated damage, and
the damage resolution stage is never reached.
The Lasombra
>What about?
>Fast Reaction
>Coordinate Attacks
>Hidden Lurker
>Follow the Alpha
These are covered in the rulings.
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=rulings
Rotschreck:
# If combat is continued or a new combat started, then rest of the
effect of Rotschreck is lost. [RTR 20020501]
Rules Team Rulings 01-MAY-2002
(Changes: Rotschreck followed by Fast Reaction or
Psyche! will nullify the torpor effect.)
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/399cda7d99025c44
a-e
and without it it will be .44 + blur for 6 damage without you hitting
back and thats no fun either...
rptre...@aol.com
How strange, you make it sound like there are no alternatives.
Terror Frenzy is preferable in this instance I think and gives you
some flexibility. I see the application of DoTB with Claws /Rots
though so if you are running that combo fair enough. I have just been
stung with Tzi in the past using DotB, that's all.
hugh.an...@gmail.com
> Can Rötschreck still be played if the opposing minion is treating
> aggravated damage as normal damage? What if they played a Skin of
> Night, Armor of Terra, or Adaptability?
>
> Yes.
> Rötschreck cares about the attempt to inflict aggravated damage, not
> whether or not the vampire receiving the damage can prevent it or
> treat it as normal damage.
>
I believe that adaptability still changes the type of damage being
inflicted @ pro & therefore as it's changed to normal the Rotshreck
cannot be played.
I know that LSJ was considering 'fixing' this to bring it inline with
other cards at some point, but I don't think this has occured yet:
Adaptability
Type: Combat
Requires: Protean
Cost: 1 blood
[pro] Change all aggravated damage from the opposing minion's strike
to normal damage.
[PRO] Prevent all aggravated damage from the opposing minion's strike.
The Lasombra
>> Can Rötschreck still be played if the opposing minion is treating
>> aggravated damage as normal damage? What if they played a Skin of
>> Night, Armor of Terra, or Adaptability?
>> Yes.
>> Rötschreck cares about the attempt to inflict aggravated damage, not
>> whether or not the vampire receiving the damage can prevent it or
>> treat it as normal damage.
>I believe that adaptability still changes the type of damage being
>inflicted @ pro & therefore as it's changed to normal the Rotshreck
>cannot be played.
Rotschreck does not care about "inflicted damage".
Rotschreck cares about the announcement of aggravated damage as a
strike.
The victim's response to the damage is never a concern.
Robert Scythe
this game is S:CE which a variety of discplines can do. Rotty allows
non potence-celerity decks a chance to deal with this nonsense (do not
mention dominate and auspex responses since those disciplines are easy
to play no matter what type of strat you're attempting). Rot can only
be played once a round and if you are a combat deck you can fuck them
if they try to block your rescue, otherwise, if you are S:CE then you
can eat it as far as I'm concerned. This is a necessary evil in this
game among a myriad of necessary evils (except PTO but am not really
going there). I'm not terribly happy to see a Rot deck in front of me,
but am much less happy to see a Malk/!Malk deck behind me or an IC
deck anywhere on the table when I'm not Cam or do not have bounce
(blocking and Rotschreking is a possibility though!).
hugh.an...@gmail.com
Does adapatability not change the source of the damage though so it's
no longer aggravated?
e.g.
Acting player plays an earth meld
Player B plays breath of the dragon
Player A then plays adaptability to change the damage (not yet
inflicted) to normal
Player B then couldn't play Rotschrek as there is no aggravated damage
attempting to be inflicted.
The Lasombra
>Does adapatability not change the source of the damage though so it's
>no longer aggravated?
I would say no.
Scott may say otherwise.
>e.g.
>Acting player plays an earth meld
>Player B plays breath of the dragon
>Player A then plays adaptability to change the damage (not yet
>inflicted) to normal
>Player B then couldn't play Rotschrek as there is no aggravated damage
>attempting to be inflicted.
Adaptability [Sabbat:R, SW:R]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Protean
[pro] Change all aggravated damage from the opposing minion's strike
to normal damage.
[PRO] Prevent all aggravated damage from the opposing minion's strike.
Artist: Hannibal King
hugh.an...@gmail.com
OK i was under the impression that adaptability did work like this and
because it did it would most likely be re-worded if ever printed.
ah found LSJ's last post with regards to this:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/46f8e99a98140e0a
as not yet re-printed I assuem it still works to thwart rotshreck.
however extremely marginal this is!