Many of you think we discarded the old MooTools site in exchange for a bland boring alternative. The reason we've upgraded the site to the new beautiful, simple, not-flashy-at-all site is because we want people to understand what MooTools is before they attempt to use it. We love the new site, and it's exactly what we want it to be. The old site did not convey the right image for the framework. MooTools was never meant to be a script that you drop in and paste some code from an example to add some crazy effects to your site, even though you know nothing about JavaScript. It is a framework for javascript developers. If that makes us sound eliteist, well then so be it, but understand that's not our goal. That being said, we also understand that no matter what we tell anyone, we cant force them to learn anything, and many people will use the tools we develop the wrong way... that's fine, they are open source for a reason.
We like the mailing list format a lot better, as it's what all developers around the world use, and we can view it from our own mail clients at our leisure. Please stop asking us to bring the forum back, or feel free to switch to another framework that provides their users with an official bulletin-board like forum software... (keep in mind, all other frameworks, including jQuery use a mailing list. None have an official forum, and none of their users complain about it)
That being said, there are other solutions. If you've never heard of Nabble, check it out. http://n2.nabble.com/MooTools-Users-f660466.html It's basically a forum interface for the mailing list. Also, the guys over at mooforum.net are doing a great job, better than we could ever have done with the mootools forum, so sign up there and use it instead of the mailing list if you wish.
To the developers and moderators at mooforum.net, if you ever need anything, or think there is an important post any of the MooTools developers should check out, please let me know via email, and i will get right back to you. Thanks for all your hard work over there, we all appreciate it.
Valerio and I have spent this entire week since Fronteers 2008 (more on that in a minute) working on the new MooTools blog. Mephisto has given us tons of problems, and cannot be styled properly like the rest of the site so we had to ditch it. This was no easy task, but as soon as it is done, (by the end of this week) I myself and the other developers will be posting to it regularly with more updates / useful information. We are actually ditching all the subdomains for simpler alternatives, and a faster, less problematic site. Check for updates at mootools.net later this week.
Last week I spoke at a conference in Amsterdam called Fronteers about Object Oriented Design in JavaScript, and how we use some principles in MooTools. Valerio attended the conference with me, and while we were there, we talked about MooTools... a lot.
As the other speakers / developers at Fronteers and i chatted about, we are all on the same team! We love the other frameworks, and the contributions they make to the JavaScript community, and we want all of you to also. We are not competing with any of them. If you think jQuery is better suited for your current project, by all means, use it! It is a well tested, well rounded framework. I also want the framework wars to stop. If the developers are all cool with each other, then so should the users be. No more bashing other frameworks, okay everyone?
We are working to release 1.2.1 very very soon. The biggest issues that need to be addressed lie in Class.js, but for anyone who has looked at and understood the code, it's not exactly trivial stuff. I have been working on rewriting Class.js to work again in Safari2, and work in Opera without an ugly hack. I'll let you know when we are finished and everything is tested. 1.2.1 will also contain many other bug fixes, and at this point, will be a drop in replacement for 1.2. There is one Reqeust issue which im looking into that might require us to make a minor change to the API. If this does happen, I will let you know how to address the minor change when we release.
After 1.2.1, we will be developing MooTools 1.3. If there are any other changes we decide must be released, we may release one or two more minor releases, but we will decide if they are necessary as we develop. 1.3 will include a few new features, though we havent decided on them definitely yet. I will make some blog posts about new stuff as it's finished, and when you can expect to start using it.
On Sep 17, 2008, at 2:16 AM, Tom Occhino wrote:
> a ton of crap...
links to:
Attention: The forum is now read-only. Please see the MooTools
Development Wiki for current support options.
http://github.com/mootools/mootools-core/wikis/support
> What about Forums?
> There are no official MooTools forums.
>
> There are a number of unofficial places where you can discuss
> MooTools and ask for support.
>
> Unofficial MooForum
> Why no official forum?
>
"Unofficial MooForum" links to "mooforum.net"
All support options are listed on that page. All links to support
options to link to this wiki page.
—Thomas Aylott / subtleGradient
We'd been having some server issues which is what prompted the need to
move off our box for the most part.
—Thomas Aylott / subtleGradient
Will this ever stop? :-P
guys, remember, this list is not the right place for this, redirect
all your complaints to mootools...@googlegroups.com
Again... for our own personal use
> 2. Why are few people using it?
Because it doesn't fit their needs.
We develop MooTools for ourselves... if others find it useful,
awesome, we encourage them to use it as well. Why is it so hard for
you to understand this.
MX3Design, I hate to have to say this, but please, refrain from
posting to the mailing list anymore. Stop calling our users arrogant
and unfriendly, and stop picking fights for no reason. If you are not
happy here, no one is forcing you to stay. Your comments have been
neither constructive, nor helpful. We all have full time jobs, and a
ton of other things going on, and don't have time to cater to your
every whim.
That being said, to the MooTools users out there who do find the
framework useful... I promise I'll always work my hardest to
incorporate the best code and all of my knowledge into the framework
as I possibly can. Even though I'm not getting paid to put 30+ hours
a week into this, I do it because I love it, and I am committed to
providing the best possible toolkit for myself, and those who find it
useful.
Seriously... we are not at war with each other, or with any other
framework. How come all the framework authors understand this, but
seemingly, none of the users get it?
Reinhard, Im no mootools developer, im just a regular mooUser....
arrogant??/ Why? Because Im not whining like you guys do??? stop it...
ask smth, you will get a response... hey.. I have found ALL MY ANSWERS
here.... Ive never cared if there is or isnt an "official forum" or
the like... just ask, you will get a response...
I Love mootools, im right now comparing it to other frameworks as
well... I guess I will stick to mootools mainly, and will
bring/transcode everything I find (and can) in other frameworks to
make it useful in mootools as well... I give a d... if theres a forum
or not.. this is as good as anything else to share ideas/questions or
anyting
STOP THE WHINING ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!
Just wanted to throw in the link for backwards compatibility layer that has been floating around since 1.2:
http://digitarald.de/journal/38150523/mootools-1-1-to-1-2-compatibility-layer/
Aaron
"If you can't say something nice, go help someone else."
-----
The MooTools Tutorial: http://www.mootorial.com www.mootorial.com
CNET Clientside: http://clientside.cnet.com clientside.cnet.com
--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/What%27s-going-on-in-MooTools...-tp1094017p1213105.html
For me.. I dont give a heck if the people around here are snob (not
that I have found anyone but the whiners themself)...
Mootools Its a great framework, better, worse, whatever... I just
happen to like it... a lot...
Would I care if most posts here are about *oh, I miss the forums*,
*oh, I NEED the forums* , '*Oh, you mootoolers are snobs*"..
etc......???????
Answer: NO, I dont give a damn, this is a pretty good framework aside
from all its users comments...
So, if you ever decide to stop using a framework.. JUST because its
community is (add whatever despective adjective here), man...... you
are just as lost as you could ever be....
About this post of mine:
On Oct 3, 10:09 am, "Iván N Paz" <ivann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> great!!! byeee!!!!!! ;-)
I just regret it, and would love to take it back... I just cant... I
was brought into it :-(
ps. Actually I would love to take back all of my posts regarding this
issue altogether... this is nonsense, and should be happening....
ps2. Most of the whiners... what is their claim???? Have they asked
for smth and havent gotten their answer or what????
IoC ... neither of the two expansions I know of fits this context ...
Inversion of Control ? design pattern applied to SCM ... GoF needs to
be notified ;)
International Olympic Committee ? ....oO
Regards
Rajeev J Sebastian
By "alphapng" fix ... do you mean fixing transparency of PNG images on
IE ? CNET Javascript seems to have something for that ...
When the new forge opens up, you should be able to Build your own
mootools with these (and other plugins) ... assuming that you do mean
the IE PNG thing of course.
Regards
Rajeev J Sebastian
Your message was idiotic, in bad taste, has bad timing, and absolutely
useless (also you forgot to insert a lot of smileys).
This attempt at legal threats is seriously pathetic, especially coming
from a businessman.
Moreover, you are still free to continue using Mootools 1.11 or
whatever version that fits for you ... that should avoid your "5
digit" losses. Heck, you could make a lot of money maintaining
mootools 1.11 :))
Regards
Rajeev J Sebastian
Honestly, I think the CodeIgniter quote sinches it - the MooTools dev
team's priorities may not be yours. And they shouldn't be. You know
how long I've been bugging to get an alphaPNG fix added to MooTools?
They said no. Repeatedly. And I listened. I moved on. Sure, I cried
myself to bed that night because some one on the internet was brash
with me, but I realized something that night...
Add this to a CSS file or style tag:
.png24{filter:expression(applyPNGFilter(this))}
Add this to your javascript:
function applyPNGFilter(img) {
var t="images/a_pixel.png";
if( img.src != t ) {
var s=img.src;
img.src = t;
img.runtimeStyle.filter =
"progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.AlphaImageLoader(src='"+s
+"',sizingMethod='scale')";
}
}
You need a_pixel.png, the ubiquitous single transparent pixel and you
need to point the code to it.
To use it, just add class="png24" to any 24 bit image. It can be a
static image in the page, content loaded asynchronously or
programmatically generated content. All browsers except IE will
ignore the filter:expression in CSS and if you really want, you can
use an <!--[if IE 6]>...<![endif]--> around the CSS or stylesheet.
Cheers
Paul
On 6-Oct-08, at 2:08 PM, nutron wrote:
> Honestly, I think the CodeIgniter quote sinches it - the MooTools dev
> team's priorities may not be yours. And they shouldn't be. You know
> how long I've been bugging to get an alphaPNG fix added to MooTools?
> They said no. Repeatedly. And I listened. I moved on. Sure, I cried
> myself to bed that night because some one on the internet was brash
> with me, but I realized something that night...
>
> Just FYI:
>
> http://clientside.cnet.com/wiki/cnet-libraries/02-browser/01-fixpng
> The MooTools Tutorial: www.mootorial.com CNET Clientside:
> clientside.cnet.com
>
I haven't checked out CNET's but mine is based off of Tobius's from the old
forum.
It does anything with a src$=.png (so images and inputs), inline CSS,
external CSS (except I recently discovered if you do an external CSS with
@import it won't traverse to those style sheets).
It also does background positioning, but not repeatable bacgrounds, and I
don't know if that'd account for all cases.
When I've got a couple more bugs kinked out I'll do a demo page.
-keif
zalun wrote:
>
> Offtopic@Paul,
> Your solution does not work with background images
> zalun
>
>
> Paul Spencer wrote:
>>
>>
>> FWIW, I've been using the following code for a couple of years:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> On 6-Oct-08, at 2:08 PM, nutron wrote:
>>
>>> Honestly, I think the CodeIgniter quote sinches it - the MooTools dev
>>> team's priorities may not be yours. And they shouldn't be. You know
>>> how long I've been bugging to get an alphaPNG fix added to MooTools?
>>> They said no. Repeatedly. And I listened. I moved on. Sure, I cried
>>
>
>
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Really guys... IE6 support has to DIE right now... personally I'm
considering not implementing a single hack to support it any
longer....
We, the developers and designers, have to end that NOW.....
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www.ivanicus.com
A nice thought Ivan but...
September 2008 IE6 browser stats:
w3c = 22.3%
thecounter.com = 36%
it's still being used a lot.
Yes... its being used BECAUSE, we still support it... because we do
not join the cause to stop its usage.... what Im doing here is making
a "call to arms", join the fight, and FORCE people to upgrade... when
we FORCE the final user to upgrade, they will force their admins to
let them do it... we can do it not only by encouraging them to switch
browser, but to al LEAST upgrade IE..... its worth the try...
>
> A nice thought Ivan but...
> September 2008 IE6 browser stats:
>
> w3c = 22.3%
> thecounter.com = 36%
>
> it's still being used a lot.
>
>
> 2008/10/16 Iván N Paz <ivannpaz@...>:
>>
>> IE6 MUST DIE...
>>
>> Really guys... IE6 support has to DIE right now... personally I'm
>> considering not implementing a single hack to support it any
>> longer....
>>
>> We, the developers and designers, have to end that NOW.....
>>
>> >
>>
>
--
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www.ivanicus.com
@aaron:
My friend, I live in such country (Cuba, I think I'm the only cuban
here, which is pretty cool btw)... a very under-developed country...
trust me... internet explorer 6 is gone here 4EVER... ;-)
In general, IE6 is still used due to:
1. Ignorance (in the best sense): users that just dont know HOW to upgrade
2. Corp Rules: Enforced by corporations
Why are they still there? Because we still support it.. not just us,
the mootools community but the whole web[development && design] sector
as well.
Its time to STOP... there are over 100+ sites promoting it... what has
failed is the proposition to Switch (which is GOOD) but strikes fear
in a hell lotta people.... what about.... UPGRADE or SWITCH? Thats
less fearful, I guess...
I'm joining the parade on stopping IE6 usage... I'm just starting my
own personal site after 4 years owning my personal domain... (shame on
me!) I will do it from there in the meantime, so far, after reviewing
the logs and analytics reports.... do you know how many people used
IE6? NONE... I know my own mini-personal site is not reference for
this... I STILL have IE6 on my machine to test sites... and IE7 on
another... but its enough... I'm fed up with this...
Supporting IE6 is like supporting 800x600... its exactly the same...
how many NEW sites support 800x600? mmm.... about 1-3%??? How many of
you guys still build sites for 800x600??? [I know some still do it in
their personal sites, but really... do you still do it for the sites
you build for your clients?]
Maybe we cannot change the world, but we certainly can give it a small
push in the right direction...
</rant>
We say we can't upgrade IE6 because of this 20-30% of people who can't
won't/don't know.
But we *WILL* tell flash users they need to upgrade - and then wonder why
95% of Flash users are all using the most recent version.
We don't want to tell people "best viewed in" but people in IE6 should be
given a banner/message at the top of the site that basically explains
reasons why they should upgrade.
Or someone needs to write a global virus that targets IE6 and does nothing
but check if they can upgrade to IE7 and forwards them to the windows update
page.
Just sayin'
-keif
anutron wrote:
>
> Ivan, there are a LOT of reasons that IE6 is in use and why we, web
> developers can't do much about it. For starters, there are a lot of old
> computers out there, esp in developing countries. Go spend some time in
> S.E.
> Asia and walk into an internet cafe. Who's going to up grade that browser?
> There are a lot of schools running donated machinery and their main
> objective is to just keep them running, not add the latest bloatware from
> MSFT or install some 3rd party browser. The same goes for small libraries.
> You and I might wish IE6 a fast death, but the only people who can do
> anything about it are MSFT and users. If you aren't building a site for
> wide
> use, you can turn your back on it. But if you're working for a business
> that
> needs web traffic, you just can't afford to be picky.
>
> C'est la vie.
>
> -aaron
>
> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Iván N Paz <
> ml-user+576...@n2.nabble.com<ml-user%2B57637-...@n2.nabble.com>
>> wrote:
>
>> Yes... its being used BECAUSE, we still support it... because we do
>> not join the cause to stop its usage.... what Im doing here is making
>> a "call to arms", join the fight, and FORCE people to upgrade... when
>> we FORCE the final user to upgrade, they will force their admins to
>> let them do it... we can do it not only by encouraging them to switch
>> browser, but to al LEAST upgrade IE..... its worth the try...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 2:05 PM, MX3 Design
>> <mx3design@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=1342453&i=0>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > A nice thought Ivan but...
>> > September 2008 IE6 browser stats:
>> >
>> > w3c = 22.3%
>> > thecounter.com = 36%
>> >
>> > it's still being used a lot.
>> >
>> >
>> > 2008/10/16 Iván N Paz
>> <ivannpaz@...<http://n2.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=1342453&i=1>>:
>>
>> >>
>> >> IE6 MUST DIE...
>> >>
>> >> Really guys... IE6 support has to DIE right now... personally I'm
>> >> considering not implementing a single hack to support it any
>> >> longer....
>> >>
>> >> We, the developers and designers, have to end that NOW.....
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦◦
>> www.ivanicus.com
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> View message @
>> http://n2.nabble.com/What%27s-going-on-in-MooTools...-tp1094017p1342453.html
>> To start a new topic under MooTools Users, email
>> ml-node+6604...@n2.nabble.com<ml-node%2B660466-...@n2.nabble.com>
>> To unsubscribe from MooTools Users, click here< (link removed) >.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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> But we *WILL* tell flash users they need to upgrade - and then wonder why
> 95% of Flash users are all using the most recent version.
EXACTLY the SAME....
Since I dont want to be just plain rude, I will certainly give my
portion of help to this. Provide a cute banner, info, reasons, etc...
Dont know how much coverture I can take on this, but I will certainly
feel happier if I do it, and dont just stand here putting up with
it...
Im TIRED of pngHacking, Double Margins, Float Errors, BorderCollapse,
/*weirdhackcommentrules*/, its ENOUGH!!!
To those that love win2k and hate winXP, they have a whole myriad of
Linuxes that will work much better [that was a just a joke, hehehe,
nevermind it! ;-)]
Not that you can just bail out of it, and certainly you would need
your client's aproval to place a banner or notice on their sites in
orther promote upgrade... there are tons of ways to convince your
client to join this movement as well, to teach them, to educate them.
(though you can not force anyone to learn, you can always tell them
the difference)
800x600 is dead, its been dead since long time ago.... right now,
designing for "normal" web, and for mobile its a whole different
deal... there are other limitations in here already besides screen
resolution, that make you follow two different paths anyways...
However, the figure is always different.
Some clients don't see a significant number of IE6 users to really justify
support or spending time accounting for the myriad of issues (PNG filtering,
rendering, etc. etc.)
It's a matter of metrics - if the client has a year's worth of data,
checking what percentage of their users are really IE6 users. The excuse of
"potentially, 25% of THE WORLD uses IE6" doesn't mean you should have to
deal with it because one day the world may visit your site and get a
downgraded experience. If you're talking small percentages, you have to
factor - is it worth the effort, or is it better to just tell people they
need a new option?
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You have the whole world, and its 25% IE6 users.... but what you
really need is the % of people that will *actually* visit that type of
site... WHAT are the odds!!! ;-)
This is almost the same as keif's point on flash upgrade.. :-P
People don't like change, they feel comfortable with the interface
they're used to. If you owned a 10 year old car would you be happy if
suddenly no parts were manufactured for it just because a new model
was released?
Yes, but you are merging data from 1000+ different sites... lets say
there are certain sites, that will definitely NOT be visited by IE6
users... would you still support it even of the % of that browser
access is less than 2% to a given site?
Besides, no one is talking about redirecting people away from your
site but alerting them of a *better* way to surf the net... educate
them.. show a pretty (pretty not as in cute or beatiful, but very
simple) downgraded page... no more pnghack, no more dblmarginfloats,
weird hacking that makes life s*ck, that makes us waste our time.. etc
etc etc...
You said time will tell and IE6 will die.. have patience... do you
know since when we are dealing with such a beast? August 27, 2001!!!
> People don't like change, they feel comfortable with the interface
> they're used to. If you owned a 10 year old car would you be happy if
> suddenly no parts were manufactured for it just because a new model
> was released?
Bad example.... That REALLY happens in the real world!!! ;-)
Lets say.... Im pretty happy with my Pentium II.... I need to buy some
SDRAM for it... what would happen? [thats a very extreme example as
well, btw... ;-)]
And tha'ts why we fail sometime with the IE6 user... the first
reaction is always to promote the switch to Firefox, opera,
whatever.... cmon!! if we tell them to at least upgrade their
browsers... that's a big step ahead!
That's not a big margin if people aren't aware of something better - people
just assume "I know, so everyone knows" - I've got stats showing earlier
firefox browsers, opera browers, etc - It's highly possible that some people
just switched a browser because someone told them too, and they never
bothered to upgrade because NO ONE TOLD THEM.
As developers/designers - we make a LOT of assumptions. People are afraid of
change. People don't know how. People can't upgrade because of XYZ.
Really? I have yet to see any statistics/information that backs this up.
It's always been "I read somewhere" or some article from 2002 where someone
did an informal web survey on a web site that caters to developers.
I have my friends/family that aren't familiar with the web upgrade (I offer
to do it for them).
The problem is the movement is *HUGE* in the development/design community.
BUT non-tech people aren't reading this! They don't care! When they go to a
browser, they need to be told that their browser is updated, and how to
update it! Personally, I think telling people that IE6 is a cancer that
needs to be erased from the web is necessary. The time of holding everyone's
hand and "dealing it" is very obviously coming to a head.
I hate dealing with IE6. It's like the ex-girlfriend that won't let go. I'm
over you, bitch. Get over it.
> People don't like change, they feel comfortable with the interface
> they're used to. If you owned a 10 year old car would you be happy if
> suddenly no parts were manufactured for it just because a new model
> was released?
>
There is SO much wrong with that statement. We're talking about a browser.
The only thing that's changed ultimately matters to the developer - for the
most part the UI has stayed the same. We're not asking people to switch OS
or upgrade to the new Office (which *IS* a drastic change of UI) we're
asking them to make development easier, and help close loopholes and bugs.
That exist on a piece of software that isn't being developed anymore.
By that same logic, if IE5 for the Mac suddenly picked up because a bunch of
old macs came around, we should support them instead of saying "you need to
switch browsers" because of the numerous issues it would cause.
The excuse of "a lot of people still use it" is a moot one. A lot of people
use it because no one tells them to upgrade, no one tells them they have
options anymore.
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Have fun with that, I'll stick to my targeted supported browser list that
depends on the clients needs and the determination that metrics provides. To
just blindly support everything "because someone could show up" is a fool's
errand.
--
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Again I say, I use METRICS to determine what browsers to support. I don't
*NOT* support IE6 - I only support it if the evidence says I should. If you
support it and you have no visitors, who's the bigger fool?
--
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I just don't want to support IE6 any more, even if I can test IE4-IE10
con the same machine ;-)
--
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Ivanicus' Code Box
http://ivanicus.com/