Learning Tamil as a second language
Jean-Luc Chevillard
I was already tempted to give a few details
when the thread
"தமிழ் மொழியைக் - கற்பிப்பதும் கற்றுக் கொள்வதும் எப்படி?"
started three days ago
but I did not have the time at that moment to read all the messages
in the thread and then the thread seemed to deviate
towards a discussion of the script reforms advocated by some
and I decided to abstain.
I suppose that the problem of learning Tamil as a second (or third,
etc.) language
is not the same at all
*(A)* in the case of a complete foreigners, like me,
and
*(B)* in the case of the children of Tamil expatriates (in the USA, the
UK, Germany, France, etc.)
who live they daily lives in a universe dominated by another language
(English, German, French, etc.)
but who have at home their parents who are native speakers of Tamil.
And
*(C)* the case of people who live in India,
who have Kannada, Telugu, Hindi, etc.
as a mother tongue
and who pick up Tamil as an additional language
is certainly also very different
Therefore, what I shall try to summarize
concerns only the *(A)* case
(and not *(B)* or *(C)*).
As Vijayaraghavan put it on the other thread,
(SEE:
<http://groups.google.com/group/mintamil/browse_thread/thread/964d148392158888#>)
"A Tamil learner must first decide whether he wants to learn Spoken
Tamil or Written tamil."
My initial choice was that I wanted to study "Spoken Tamil",
because, being a student of linguistics at the time of my first coming
to India
(in july 1981), I thought that it was the only one which was REAL.
Before coming to India,
I had acquired 2 books:
The first one was a method by Pierre Meile (1911-1963)
/Introduction au tamoul/, G. P. Maisonneuve , Paris, 1945
The second one was
/An Introduction to colloquial Tamil/
by J.R. Marr, P. Kothandaraman, A. Kandiah
(Copyright 1971: School of Oriental and African Studies, Voluntary
Service Overseas, Revised 1979)
The first one was very useful for learning the script
and for getting a preliminary idea of the verbal and nominal paradigms
in Written Tamil.
The second one was my first exposure
to the Tamil diglossia, which came as quite a shock,
when I started to try to understand the logic
connecting the various columns in some pages:
-- the Spoken Tamil (in transliteration)
-- the English equivalent
-- the Written Tamil (in Tamil script)
Since I am sure most people on the list won't be able to read the diacritics
which would be necessary for reproducing the 1st column,
and to give you an idea of the way the data was provided
by Marr, Kothandaraman, and Kandiah,
I shall the Tamil script both for the 1st and the 3rd columns.
There was for instance on the page 13, the following words:
வர்றே(ன்) I come வருகிறேன்
வர்றிங்க(ள்) you come வருகிறீர்கள்
செய்யிறே(ன்) I do, I make செய்கிறேன்
செய்யிறிங்க(ள்) you do செய்கிறீர்கள்
etc.
Therefore, you might say that I was warned about what to expect,
even before setting foot on the Indian soil.
When I arrived, I saw indeed that the script was identical with what I
had learned
(I could read the word சென்னை)
but as far as spoken Tamil was concerned,
it was quite a shock.
I acquired more books, like for instance:
/A Progressive Grammar of the Tamil Language/, by A.H. Arden, revised by
A.C. Clayton, The Christian Literature Society.
(fifth reprint, 1976)
/Grammatika Tamil'skogo Jazyka/, M.S. Andronov, Izdatel'stvo "Nauka",
Moskva 1966
(it was for sale at NCBH on Mount Road)
/A Grammar of Spoken Tamil/, Harold Schiffman (University of
Washington), The Christian Literature Society, 1979.
I told my new Tamil friends at the Lycée Français de Pondichéry
that I wanted to learn Tamil
[[At the lycée, I was teaching mathematics, as a Voluntary 2 years Civil
Service,
because I had some degrees and diplomas in Mathematics,
and because I did not want to do a (1 year) military service
(for which the civil service was considered as an acceptable (longer)
substitute)]]
A Tamil teacher offered to help me.
I was thus regularly visiting Mrs ச. மதனகல்யாணி,
who was at the time teaching Tamil to the pupils of the Lycée Français,
and she gave me a lot of useful explanations.
I also tried other ways
I decided to also acquire school books for children (1st standard, 2nd
standard),
in order to see how children were taught.
One day, I was sitting on the sea side and trying to memorize the
vocabulary in some children school books
and some unknown man started to speak with me
and also offered to give me lessons in Tamil.
I agreed
and went the next day to the small hut on the outskirts of Pondicherry
(without electricity)
where he was living with his wife and children
to have a lesson of another kind,
with "teachers" who were to become
the first in a series of informants
in my linguistics field work.
In all those early experiments (in 1981),
the difficult thing was the discrepancy
I felt between what people tried to teach me
and what they really spoke themselves.
It was quite tricky to disentangle between all those varieties.
The variety of Tamil described in the books by Meile or by Arden/Clayton
was visible everywhere but was never heard,
except in very special cases (some speeches, etc.)
or when people were reading from books.
And the varieties of Spoken Tamil
described by Marr, Kothandaraman, and Kandiah
or by Schiffman
was often "almost" there,
but what I could pick up with my own ears
was often slightly different, or sometimes very different,
like for instance the local equivalent of forms like
பேசிக் கொண்டு,
which did not become பேசி கிட்டு
as expected but something else in Pondicherry.
Standard Spoken Tamil
was elusive: it was understood but not used
as "by the book".
And of course, when I asked people to repeat what they had just said,
they would say something different :-)
A few weeks later,
I heard that a book, /Conversational Tamil/
by (the late) N. Kumaraswamy Raja
was available at the Annamalai University press.
I went there and bought it
(and of course many other books).
When I went back to Pondicherry,
I had a look at that book
and decided that I would try to have
all the lessons in Spoken Tamil in that book
translated into the Pondicherry dialect.
by my informants.
This was of course only the beginning of a long story
Later, I started to make recordings of folk tales
on audio cassettes
and to transcribe them.
(I had come to India with a tape recorder).
I wanted to have more spontaneous data.
My involvement with Modern written Tamil,
came after more than one year of immersion into spoken Tamil.
[I started to feel that my picture of Tamil was incomplete
without the other half of the diglossia]
Later, I also became interested in Classical Tamil.
That would be a very very long story
I hope this small beginning of a story
throws light on some of the difficulties
which a complete foreigner meets with
when he/she want to learn Tamil.
Best wishes
-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
Le 2/20/2010 1:36 AM, N. Kannan a écrit :
> Dear Jean:
>
> Though it is not exactly a part of this thread, you may give us some
> feedback on learning Tamil as a second language.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Kannan
>
>
விஜயராகவன்
should be held in International Tamil conferences. Semmozhi
conferences are invariably occasions and rituals to sing praises of
Tamil's antiquity i.e. தமிழின் தொன்மை.
Perhaps JLC may expand his adventures in Tamil learning into a small
book , in French, English and Tamil and publsih it. Learning Tamil is
a story in itself
Vijayaraghavan
On 20 Feb, 12:39, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevill...@univ-paris-
> <http://groups.google.com/group/mintamil/browse_thread/thread/964d1483...>)
> > Kannan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
வினோத் ராஜன்
And with regards to all that Mother Tongue learning stuff, I always
wondered what different would it make if we chose Standard Tamil to
English/French or whatever. None is actually used by the children, and
in all cases, they are alien to the day-to-day language used by the
kids, and essence they learn something entirely new during
schooling. Duh ! what big difference is it going to make ?
V
On Feb 20, 5:39 pm, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevill...@univ-
> <http://groups.google.com/group/mintamil/browse_thread/thread/964d1483...>)
N. Kannan
Thank you so much for this wonderful feedback.
I completely sympathize with you as I face all the difficulties you
mentioned in learning Tamil in my Korean learning. Spoken Korean is so
very different from written Korean. They speak something and when you
stop them and ask, they say something entirely different. I see your
frustration fully.
Native speakers of Tamil and Korean often tell foreigners that their
language is the easiest and Noble one ;-))
I encourage you to delve in this further when you have time. It is
fascinating and it may open up a new door for my Korean learning !!
Kannan
தாரகை
> on which talks should be held in International Tamil conferences.
For a start this would be the first time there will be a conference
under the title "Chemmozhi".
Moreover, if the respondent can please browse through the previous
Tamil Research conferences magazines & program brochures - one would
find the various sessions in English and one certainly on spoken Tamil
& the developments. As a delegate of the last Tamil Research
conference in Thanjavur, I had the pleasure to engage in a session
where spoken Tamil & the constraints where discussed.
Hence,it is better not to draw conclusions about Tamil conferences
main ritual is to sing praises of
Tamil's antiquity i.e. தமிழின் தொன்மை. Since, it would be worthwhile
to pass judgement after the Chemmozhi conference program list has been
released!
விஜயராகவன்
Korean language is not known to be diglossic such as Arabic or Tamil.
According to Wikipedia
The United States' Defense Language Institute classifies Korean
alongside Arabic, Chinese, and Japanese as a Category IV language,
meaning that 63 weeks of instruction (as compared to just 25 weeks for
French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian) are required to bring an
English-speaking student to a limited working level of proficiency in
which he or she has "sufficient capability to meet routine social
demands and limited job requirements" and "can deal with concrete
topics in past, present, and future tense."[20] As a result, the study
of the Korean language in the United States is dominated by Korean
American heritage language students; they are estimated to form over
80% of all students of the language at non-military universities.[21]
However, Korean is considerably easier for speakers of certain other
languages, such as Japanese; in Japan, it is more widely studied by
non-heritage learners.[22] The Korean Language Proficiency Test, an
examination aimed at assessing non-native speakers' competence in
Korean, was instituted in 1997; 17,000 people applied for the 2005
sitting of the examination.[23]
Perhaps after 63 weeks of instruction in korean, you may be ease in
many situations !!
> > when he/she want to learn Tamil.- Hide quoted text -
விஜயராகவன்
> Hence,it is better not to draw conclusions about Tamil conferences
> main ritual is to sing praises of
> Tamil's antiquity i.e. தமிழின் தொன்மை. Since, it would be worthwhile
> to pass judgement after the Chemmozhi conference program list has been
> released!
OK, Mr.Tharakai, I'll withhold judgement till much after the events
Vijayaraghavan
விஜயராகவன்
கொடுப்பது - நேரடியாக இல்லாவிட்டாலும், மறைமுகமாக - ஏன் தமிழை பல சமூக
சூழ்நிலைகளில் தமிழர்கள் பயன்படுத்துவதில்லை என்பதில் தொடர்பு
கொண்டுள்ளது என நினைக்கிறேன்
விஜயராகவன்
தாரகை
> language is the easiest and Noble one ;-))
Its a salient point that you have touched Dr Kannan.
Since being associated with Ethnic Schools teaching in the country of
my residence, I comprehend the difficulties faced by Jean & yourself
with Tamil & Korean is no different to foreign language learners
trying to learn languages which don't figure in the top 10 easy,
useful & logical language learning.
The 10 languages are;
1. English
2. Spanish
3. Mandarin
4. German
5. French
6. Japanese
7. Dutch
8. Italian
9. Russian
10.Portuguese
Moreover,some of the foreign languages have prepared very good text &
audio materials for new learners and their pedagogy though initially
stresses spoken language,within about the 3rd or the 4th class/session
- written & grammatical logistics play a significant role.
Subsequently,spoken language dovetails the written/lgrammatical
strategies. Since colloquialism expresses the prevailing lingua-scope
of any spoken language & to rapidly learn a foreign language - the
initiation is to pick up the perspectival aspects of the spoken
language & gradually wade into the the written context.
For spoken language & pronunciation techniques - foreign language labs
model as in German, French, Russian need to be considered in Tamil.
Learning another language should be made easy with 24 hours free phone
call service/radio station/an auxillary TV Channel in every province
of the state of the local language for foreigners.
On the eve of International Mother tongue day - Sunday the 21st
February - this discussion should instill some thought amongst us of
finding the means to spearhead easy learning of Thamizh not only for
our future generation but to foreigners visiting Tamilnadu.
வாழ்க நிரந்தரம் வாழ்க தமிழ்மொழி
வாழிய வாழியவே! - மாகவி
Please browse www.unesco.org/en/languages-in-education about
International Mother Language Day - IMLD2010
Is technology friend or foe when it comes to preserving local
languages? That’s one of the questions to be posed as part of a two-
day event to mark the 11th International Mother Language Day (IMLD).
The International Symposium:- Translation and Cultural Mediation will
bring together experts in Paris on February 22 and 23 to discuss
topics including bridging global and local languages and Translation,
Mutual Understanding and Stereotypes.
Information sessions on UNESCO’s languages and multilingualism
activities will include one on the New Atlas of Endangered Languages.
In addition there will be two education presentations, one on mother
tongue instruction in bilingual or multilingual education and the
other entitled Technology and the Mother Tongue; Friend or Foe?
N. Kannan
We need to bring an awerness on Mother Tongue & development of easy
learning techniques.
Kannan
2010/2/20 தாரகை <thar...@gmail.com>:
N. Kannan
In fact, there is a popular show every Monday, called 'Little Talk'.
The most beautiful women of the world sitting together and carrying
out 'little talk' in Korean!! பொறாமையாக இருக்கும். உலகின் அனைத்து
மொழிக்காரர்களும் (மங்கோலியன் உட்பட) அதில் கலந்து கொண்டு கலக்குவர்.
They all study under special University programs. The (basic) Hangul
script is so easy to learn that a Tamil colleague from KAIST taught me
in an hours time while waiting for a connecting bus. In fact, it is
much easier if a Tamil teaches you Korean as there are so much
similarities (these guys learn at their respective institutes).
Unfortunately, mine is not a University but a pure research institute.
So no regular teachers. அன்புள்ளம் கொண்ட சகாக்கள் சொல்லிக்
கொடுக்கின்றனர். They are not language teachers. Hence, they can't
explain any critical grammatical/linguistic questions. Anyway, as an
adult, it is always hard to learn a language. We lost our innocence.
BTW, your notes will carry more meaning if you bring in comparative
statements on Tamil learning!
Kannan
2010/2/20 விஜயராகவன் <vij...@gmail.com>:
> Hi Kannan
>
> Korean language is not known to be diglossic such as Arabic or Tamil.
>
Tamil Heritage Foundation - http://www.tamilheritage.org/
விஜயராகவன்
On 21 Feb, 02:44, "N. Kannan" <navannak...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's true Raghavan.
> BTW, your notes will carry more meaning if you bring in comparative
> statements on Tamil learning!
>
> Kannan
அமெரிக்க ராணுவம் கொரியாவில் 60 வருடங்களாக ஈடுபட்டுள்ளதால், அவர்கள்
கொரிய மொழியில் ஆர்வமெடுத்து, மேலே சொன்னதைப் போல் கொரியன் கத்துக்க
எவ்வளவு காலம் ஆகும் என்றெல்லாம் கணக்கிட்டுள்ளனர். அதைப்போல் எங்கெங்கு
அமெரிக்க ராணுவ தளங்கள் உள்ளதோ, அம்மொழிகளில் ஓரளவு பாண்டித்யம் பெற்று,
அம்மொழிகளின் கற்றுதலை சுலபம் ஆக்குகின்றனர்.
தமிழும், தமிழ்நாடும் அந்த அளவு அமெரிக்க ராணுவ சமாசாரங்களில் ஈடு படாதது
நல்லதே.
ஆனால் அதைப் போல் தமிழ் மொழி கத்துப்பதில் ஒரு சிஸ்டம் கொண்டுவருவதும்,
பல துறைகளுக்கு ஏற்ப, எவ்வாறு, எந்த அளவு தமிழ் பரிச்சயமும், வல்லமையும்
வேண்டும் என்பதில் தமிழ்நாடு அரசாங்கமும், மற்றவர்களும் ஆர்வம்
செலுத்தினால் நல்லது விளையும். உதாரனமாக டூரிஸ்டுகளுக்கு ஒரளவு தமிழ்
இருந்தால் போதும். ஹோட்டல் ரிசப்ஷனில் வேலைக்கு மற்றொரளவு, கோர்ட்டில்
வேலை செய்வதற்கு இன்னொரளவு, இதைப்போல் ஒவ்வொரு சூழ்நிலைக்கும்
அதற்க்கேற்ப்ப தமிழ் பேச்சு, எழுத்து பரிச்சயம், புரிதல் இருந்தால்
போதும்.
இதையெல்லாம், நேர் பார்வை, நேர் கண்காணிப்பு, நேர் அவதானம் இவற்றால்தான்
செய்யமுடியும். இதை தமிழ்நாடு அரசும், தமிழர்களும் செய்யாவிட்டால், வேறு
யாரும் செய்ய மட்டார்கள், ஏனெனில் உலக அளவில் தமிழின் முக்கியத்துவம்
மிகக் குறைவு. தமிழ் பிரதேசங்கள் பணத்தில் கொழிப்பதல்ல, பெட்ரோலியம்
போன்ற மூல தாதுக்களையும், தொழில் உற்பத்திகளையும் பெரும் அளவில் ஏற்றுமதி/
இறக்குமதி செய்பவை அல்ல, உலக அலவில் ராணுவ/ யுக்திபுஷ்டியுள்ள
(ஸ்ட்ராடெஜிக்) முக்கியத்துவம் இல்லை. அல்-கைதா போன்ற உலக அளவு பயங்கர
வாதிகளையும் உற்பத்தி செய்பவை அல்ல.
விஜயராகவன்
kra narasiah
| First of all what is a mother tongue? Oxford dic says the language that is spoken GENERALLY in the family is the mother tongue . So it is not mother's tongue. In which case what is the mother tongue of my grandchildren whose mother's toungue is Gujarati? They generally speak English at home! Our family is a cosmopolitan family. We have a bengali son in law, and a marathi son in law. In the changed life style and paradigm shift does mother tongue have any place? I love English and Tamil. they definitely are not my mother tongues What is your advice to me? I still consider two sweetest spoken languages in India are Bengali and Telugu. I really dont care if somebody disputes. That is my belief. Narasiah. --- On Sat, 2/20/10, N. Kannan <navan...@gmail.com> wrote: |
|
N. Kannan
>
> I still consider two sweetest spoken languages in India are Bengali and Telugu.
>
I thought they were Bengali and Malayalam ;-)
K.>
Jean-Luc Chevillard
there is another parameter which I forgot to mention:
it is of course the presence of English.
In order try to learn Tamil,
in the early eighties
I often had to pretend not to know English.
After a few words exchanged in Tamil,
people would switch to English.
My standard constant answer was that I was French and did not know English.
Or I might ask them whether they knew French,
find out that they did not
(there are very few French speakers in Pondicherry),
and conclude that we had to manage
our communication with the only language
which we had in common, namely Tamil.
Therefore, among the factors that make Tamil difficult to learn,
is the fact that native Tamil speakers
(especially those who have a good command of English)
expect (or prefer to think)
that any foreigner will prefer English,
to a mixture of vernacular Tamil and formal Tamil,
which is in fact what I am able to use
[and which will include from time to time one English word/expression,
for which I don't have in my immediate memory the Tamil equivalent,
although I may have a passive knowledge of it].
The EXPECTATIONS of the target society
in any learning situation
play an important role
in what the learner manages to learn.
Therefore, after an initial period where progress is fast,
one reaches a "plateau",
in which progress becomes slow,
or even very slow,
because progress would mean an enormous increase
in the active vocabulary,
in order to fulfill the needs of intellectual communication.
A possible answer to the problem
is to equip the learner with EPILINGUISTIC SKILLS,
i.e. the spontaneous manifestations of the METALINGUISTIC function of
language,
that function which allows one to use language in order to comment/talk
about language.
The metalinguistic function of language is what is alluded to in the
தொல்காப்பியம் verse which says:
பொருண்மை தெரிதலுஞ் சொன்மை தெரிதலுஞ்
சொல்லின் ஆகும் என்மனார் புலவர்.
(TC153i)
Those epilinguistic skills
will allow the learner to ask,
among other things,
for VERBATIM repetion
of what has just been said
(pretending to be slightly deaf ..., asking people to speak louder ...
are possible techniques but they are not the only ones)
That being said,
why did I say all that in English,
in this my present message to the மின்-தமிழ் குழுமம்?
It is because I don't think I am able to express
those thoughts efficiently and clearly,
in dignified Tamil.
தயவு செய்து, நான் மேலே எழுதினதெல்லாம் தமிழில் மொழிபெயர்த்து அருளுங்கள்
நன்றி
ழான் லூய்க் செவ்வியார் (Paris)
kra narasiah
| Among the Dravidian languages Telugu is the sweetest Thats why Barathi said சுந்தர்த்தெலுங்கினில் இசை பாடி! நரசய்யா |
--- On Mon, 2/22/10, N. Kannan <navan...@gmail.com> wrote: |
|
K R A Narasiah
narasiah
N. Kannan
N. Kannan
மறுமொழியை ஆங்கிலத்தில் தரமுடிந்தாலும் உங்கள் ஆசைப்படி தமிழில்
எழுதுகிறேன். ஆங்கிலம் எனும் மொழி உலகப்பொது மொழியான பிறகு, பல்வேறு மொழி
கற்றலில் அது தடையாக நிற்கிறது. மொழிப்பற்று உள்ள பிரான்சு, ஜெர்மனி,
ஜப்பான் போக இதர நாடுகளில் மக்கள் ஒரு வெளிநாட்டாரைக் கண்டால்
ஆங்கிலத்தில் கதைக்கவே ஆசைப்படுகின்றனர். இங்கு கொரியாவிலும் அதே நிலமை.
எனவே ஆங்கிலம் தெரிந்துவிட்டால் பிற மொழி கற்றல் தள்ளாடுகிறது ;-)
அமெரிக்கன் கல்லூரியில் எனக்கு ஆங்கிலம் கற்றுத்தந்த அமெரிக்க ஆசிரியர்
வீட்டில் தினத்தந்தி வாங்கி வைத்துப் படிப்பார். அதுவே புதிதாய் தமிழ்
கற்போருக்கு எளிய வழி என்பார்!
க.>
Hari Krishnan
Dear Narasiah:Our beloved A.K.Ramanujan adds one more tongue called 'Kitchen Tongue'. At his home, his "mother tongue" was Kannada, he studied English and Sanskrit (in which he called Sanskrit as 'Father-tongue' எம் தந்தையர் நாடெனும் போதினிலே ஒரு சக்தி பிறக்குது மூச்சினிலே) but there was another tongue which was spoken at the kitchen with his parents and sibbling that was Tamil. Being a Tamil Vaishnavite migrated to Karnataka, his family retained the tradition of Tamil at their home. I remember he mentioned, எம்மொழி பசிக்கு உணவிடுகிறதோ அதுவே இதயத்திற்கு நெருங்கிய மொழி என்று. அதனால்தானே அவரால் சங்க இலக்கியங்கள், திருவாய்மொழி இவைகளை மொழிபெயர்க்க முடிந்தது?நாம் எம்மொழியில் சரளமாய் சிந்திக்கிறமோ அதுவே நம் தாய்மொழி.க.>
There is another suggestion. Taking all these for granted, how is it that I do not remember anything of my past life ? This can be easily explained. I am now speaking English. It is not my mother tongue, in fact no words of my mother tongue are now present in my consciousness; but let me try to bring them up, and they rush in. That shows that consciousness is only the surface of the mental ocean, and within its depths are stored up all our experiences. Try and struggle, they would come up and you would be conscious even of your past life.
This is direct and demonstrative evidence. Verification is the perfect proof of a theory, and here is the challenge thrown to the world by the Rishis. We have discovered the secret by which the very depths of the ocean of memory can be stirred up — try it and you would get a complete reminiscence of your past life.
=================
Does it answer or adds to the puzzle? IDK :-)
அன்புடன்,
ஹரிகி.
kra narasiah
| நான் சரளமாய் சிந்திப்பது ஆங்கிலத்தில்! அப்படியானல் எனது தாய் மொழி ஆங்கிலமா? When my Kadalodi was reviewed in 1972 by S R Govindarajan, in The Hindu he wrote "The author thinks in English and translates his thoughts into Tamil with a result that the book appears to be a Tamil translation of an original English" இப்போ என்ன சொல்லுகிறீர்கள்? நரசய்யா --- On Mon, 2/22/10, Hari Krishnan <hari.har...@gmail.com> wrote: |
|
|
Innamburan Innamburan
nazer ali
one's native language;
Tirumurti Vasudevan
>
> நான் சரளமாய் சிந்திப்பது ஆங்கிலத்தில்! அப்படியானல் எனது தாய் மொழி ஆங்கிலமா?
இந்த கேள்விக்கு கல்லுரி நாட்களில் நண்பர் ஒருவர் கொடுத்த பதில்: எந்த
மொழியில் ஆண்டவனிடம் வேண்டிக்கொள்கிறோமோ அதுவே அவர் தாய் மொழி.
--
My blogs: [all in Tamil]
http://anmikam4dumbme.blogspot.com/
http://chitirampesuthati.blogspot.com/ photo blog now with english text too!
http://kathaikathaiyaam.blogspot.com/
BE HAPPY! LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO BE UNHAPPY!
Jean-Luc Chevillard
நீங்கள் நடந்ததை கொஞ்சம் விவரமாக எழுதினால் நன்றாய் இருக்கும்
-- ழான் லூய்க் செவ்வியார் (Paris)
Madhurabharathi
On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 3:32 PM, kra narasiah <nara...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> நான் சரளமாய் சிந்திப்பது ஆங்கிலத்தில்! அப்படியானல் எனது தாய் மொழி ஆங்கிலமா?
இந்த கேள்விக்கு கல்லுரி நாட்களில் நண்பர் ஒருவர் கொடுத்த பதில்: எந்த
மொழியில் ஆண்டவனிடம் வேண்டிக்கொள்கிறோமோ அதுவே அவர் தாய் மொழி.
Jean-Luc Chevillard
there are two other frequently given answers:
1. the language in which one dreams
2. the langue which one uses for counting/calculating
But all those criteria might give different answers
Someone born in a catholic family in France in the thirties and having
emigrated to the USA long ago might:
-- pray in Latin
-- dream in English
-- count in French
-- jlc
N. Ganesan
On Feb 22, 4:02 am, kra narasiah <naras...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> நான் சரளமாய் சிந்திப்பது ஆங்கிலத்தில்! அப்படியானல் எனது தாய் மொழி ஆங்கிலமா?
> When my Kadalodi was reviewed in 1972 by S R Govindarajan, in The Hindu he wrote "The author thinks in English and translates his thoughts into Tamil with a result that the book appears to be a Tamil translation of an original English"
>
> இப்போ என்ன சொல்லுகிறீர்கள்?
> நரசய்யா
>
Like SRG, I've heard from George Hart in early 90s: "Ganesan, the
translations by Tamils into English
do not read like English. Rather, they read more like Tamil."
I guess very few like A K Ramanujan succeed in convincing English
native speakers that
their re-creations read well.
NG
> --- On Mon, 2/22/10, Hari Krishnan <hari.harikrish...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Hari Krishnan <hari.harikrish...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MinTamil] Re: Learning Tamil as a second language
> To: mint...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Monday, February 22, 2010, 3:50 AM
>
> 2010/2/22 N. Kannan <navannak...@gmail.com>
விஜயராகவன்
> On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 3:32 PM, kra narasiah <naras...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > நான் சரளமாய் சிந்திப்பது ஆங்கிலத்தில்! அப்படியானல் எனது தாய் மொழி ஆங்கிலமா?
>
> இந்த கேள்விக்கு கல்லுரி நாட்களில் நண்பர் ஒருவர் கொடுத்த பதில்: எந்த
> மொழியில் ஆண்டவனிடம் வேண்டிக்கொள்கிறோமோ அதுவே அவர் தாய் மொழி.
>
> --
Does it mean Atheists don't have a mother tongue?
Vijayaraghavan
K R A Narasiah
Ramesh
--
regards,
Ramesh
Lead me from the unreal to the truth;
Lead me from darkness to the light;
Lead me from death to immortality.
விஜயராகவன்
> அளவற்ற வலியில் தன்னை மறந்து எந்த மொழியில் கூவுவீர்களோ அது.
>
> உங்கள் பரம் வைரியை திட்டுவதற்கு பயன்படுத்தும் மொழியும்.
Or what a man or woman uses in sex and ecstasy is mother tongue !
Vijayaraghavan
Innamburan Innamburan
Tthamizth Tthenee
exactly a mother tongue?
பிறந்தது முதல் எந்த மொழியை காதால் கேட்டு, மூளையில் பதிவாகி, இதயத்தில்
கலந்து உள்ளத்திலே ஊறி, உணர்வுகளில் மொத்தமாகக் இணைந்து,பிணைந்து,
இரண்டறக்கலக்கும் மொழியே தாய் மொழி,
தன்னுணர்வற்ற நிலையிலும் தன்னையறியாமல் வெளிப்படும் மொழி
தாய் மொழி,
உண்மையைச் சொன்னால் தாய்ப்பாலுடன் கலந்து நமக்கு வருவதே தாய் மொழி,
அன்புடன்
தமிழ்த்தேனீ
2010/2/22, விஜயராகவன் <vij...@gmail.com>:
> --
> "Tamil in Digital Media" group is an activity of Tamil Heritage Foundation. Visit our website: http://www.tamilheritage.org; you may like to visit our Muthusom Blogs at: http://www.tamilheritage.org/how2contribute.html To post to this group, send email to minT...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to minTamil-u...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minTamil
--
மனிதமும்,உலகமும் காப்போம்,
மௌனம் உணர்த்தாத பொருளை வார்த்தை உணர்த்தாது
அன்புள்ள
தமிழ்த்தேனீ
http://www.peopleofindia.net
rkc...@gmail.com
http://thamizthenee.blogspot.com
தாரகை
Below is an article titled Do you ‘think’ in your mother tongue?
When the mind is thinking it is talking to itself. ~ Plato
I talk to myself all the times, I always have. Bigger the dilemma,
more I talk; this is also another way of my brainstorming and mulling
over new ideas.
Be it a thinking out loud or in whispers or in silence, thinking is
part of being human.
Thinking and logic is what separates us from the animals. We all
think, it is a part of our problem solving nature.
For those living overseas or away from the place of your childhood, do
you ‘think’ in your mother tongue or the adopted foreign/new language?
Back home in India, my train of thought was always in my mother
tongue. It was natural; speaking the same language as my brain,
thinking something and then saying it loud during the conversation. It
was automatic -without noticeable delays.
And then, I came to America. :)
When I first came here, I recall that I continued to think in my
mother tongue, even when talking to my American colleagues - in a
meeting at work or any other social settings. I used to think in my
Indian language, and then translate my thoughts it into English for
the verbal exchange. At times it slowed me down; It was no longer
automatic. I used to re-phrase a lot. This is how it was; I never
thought it would change much.
However, lately I find myself thinking in English more and more often.
Over the years, it seems, my thinking mechanism has also adapted to
the local language, the local way of communication. Even when talking
to myself or brainstorming alone, I generally think/talk in English –
most of the time. I don’t recall paying any special attention or
making extra effort to thinking the ‘foreign’ way. Over the years, my
thought process has adapted to the language that I speak more often.
This is an example of the ‘unconscious adaption’; we are adapting to
our surroundings without any special effort or realization.
Interestingly though, on some occasions - under very demanding
conditions - I switch my thinking to my mother tongue. For example,
during the last parts of my exercise or work-out routines at the
gymnasium; when there is no energy or will-power left, I have found
myself counting towards zero in my mother tongue. On other times, if I
am very upset, I switch to the language that my mother taught me –
mainly to scold myself if it was my mistake.
Our logic and thinking – our brain – seems to adapt to the foreign
culture over time, just like we all do.
However, if we dig deep enough, we can still find the residue of our
heritage and cultures in the depth of our existence.
The past never leaves us, even though it is gone.
Courtesy:- The Indiansabroad.com
On Feb 22, 8:02 pm, kra narasiah <naras...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> நான் சரளமாய் சிந்திப்பது ஆங்கிலத்தில்! அப்படியானல் எனது தாய் மொழி ஆங்கிலமா?
> இப்போ என்ன சொல்லுகிறீர்கள்?
தாரகை
Scientific monogenesis: The Mother Tongue theory.
Theories of monogenesis do not necessarily derive from religious
belief. Many modern scholars believe in a theory of monogenesis that
has come to be called the Mother Tongue Theory. This theory holds that
one original language spoken by a single group of Homo sapiens perhaps
as early as 150 thousand years ago gave rise to all human languages
spoken on the Earth today. As humans colonized various continents,
this original mother tongue diverged through time to form the numerous
languages spoken today. Since many scientists believe that the first
fully modern humans appeared in Africa, the mother tongue theory is
connected with a more general theory of human origin known as the Out
of Africa theory. Currently, the theory of evolutionary monogenesis
tends to be favored by a group of linguists working in the United
States.
Regardless of the origin of language, the fact remains that there are
over 5,000 mutually unintelligible forms of human speech used on Earth
today. And, although many are radically different from one another in
structure--the differences are superficial since each and every one of
these languages can be used creatively.
Languages do not differ in terms of their creative potential but
rather in terms of the level upon which particular distinctions are
realized in each particular language. What is expressed concisely in
one language requires a phrase in another language. (Examples of
aspect and evidentiality; also words like Swahili mumagamagama "a
person who habitually loses things" and Russian zajchik "the rainbow
reflection from glass." Linguists study how each particular language
structures the expression of concepts. Such cross-language comparisons
fall under a branch of linguistics called language typology.
If the structural diversity of human languages is superficial, then
why in language typology important?
Why do so many linguists spend so much time studying language
diversity?
1) First, to try to trace the original mother tongue (or mother
tongues). Linguists who compare modern languages try to reconstruct
ancient languages are called comparative linguists.
2) Second, because languages change more slowly than the environment
in which they are spoken, languages contain all sorts of indications
of bygone culture. For historians and anthropologists, language
provides a special window into the past: ursus/bear/ medved; time/
tide/vremya. Study a language--any language--and you will learn much
about the history of the people who speak that language. You will also
be taking a crucial step toward understanding the contemporary culture
of the speakers. Linguists who study language from this cultural
standpoint are called anthropological linguists.
Remember that--contrary to the hypothesis of linguistic determinism--
studying a language will not help you predict the future for the
people who speak that language. The future will happen with little
regard for language structure, and language will be shaped by that
future, not the other way around.
Courtesy:- http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test1materials/origin_of_language.htm
தாரகை
Indira Gandhi, wrote in his column, "All in All", in The Asian Age
about a Census enumerator who visited his house.
His wife told him that her mother tongue was Telugu and mine was
Kannada but that our children had only a mother but no mother-tongue,
having been born in Delhi and gone to school here without any
opportunities to study either of the parents language.
The census enumerator's response was that since they must be speaking
Hindi, that would be deemed to be their mother tongue:-)
தாரகை
In spite of the difficulties we face in narrowly defining what mother
tongue is,it appears that no definition of mother tongue is going to
cover all aspects of the use of the concept. Albert D Souza's response
in another forum.
Will the linguistic and political aspects of the concept continue to
engage our attention for some time?
N. Kannan
a local language school for adults. The principal of the school talks
good English. However, sometimes when I visit the school around 9:30
PM or so to pick up my wife, the principal refused to talk to me in
English giving the reason that I can't make anymore effort to speak a
foreign language.
So can we say that mother tongue is one that takes no effort in
expressing itself?
Kannan
2010/2/23 தாரகை <thar...@gmail.com>:
Ramesh
--
"Tamil in Digital Media" group is an activity of Tamil Heritage Foundation. Visit our website: http://www.tamilheritage.org; you may like to visit our Muthusom Blogs at: http://www.tamilheritage.org/how2contribute.html To post to this group, send email to minT...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to minTamil-u...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minTamil
விஜயராகவன்
நீங்கள் கேட்ட மொழி பெயர்பு (தேவையுள்ள பகுதிக்கு)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
அதனால், தமிழ் கற்பதில் மற்ற கஷ்டங்களில் ஒன்றாவது, தமிழை தாய் மொழியாய்
கொண்டவர்கள் (அதுவும் ஆங்கிலத்தில் சரளமாக இருப்பவர்கள்) வெளிநாட்டவர்கள்
ஆங்கிலத்தை தமிழை விட அதிகமாக பேச்சில் விரும்புவர் என்று
எதிர்பார்ப்பது. பேச்சுதமிழயும், கட்டான தமிழையும் நான் பிரயோகிக்கிறேன்
( எப்பவாவது எனக்கு தமிழ் வார்த்தை, அறிவில் இருந்தாலும் ஞாபகம்
வராவிட்டால் அதன் ஆங்கில ஈடு கொடுக்கிறேன்)
எந்த (மொழி) கற்க்கும் சூழலிலும் அதை கேட்கும் சமுதாயத்தின்
எதிர்ப்பார்ப்பு , எவ்வளவு கற்க முடியும் என்பதை நிர்ணயிக்கிரது
அதனால், முதலில் வேகமான முன்னேற்றத்தின் பிறகு, கற்பது ஒரு `பீடபூமியை`
அடைகின்றது, அதில் முன்னேற்றம் மெதுவாகிறது அல்லது வெகு தாமதம் ஆகிரது;
ஏனெனில் முன்னேற்றம் என்பது அறிவுசார் தொடர்புகள் தேவைகளை பூர்த்தியாக்க
வினையாகும் சொல் திறனின் அதி வளர்ச்சி ஆகும்.
அதற்கு ஒரு வழி , கற்பவரின் இயல்பு மொழித் திறமைகளை அதிகப்படுத்துவது.
இந்த இயல்பான மீமொழியியல் திறன், மொழியை நாம் உபயோகிக்கும் பேச்சு மேலேயே
திருப்பி, அதனை அலசி, விமர்சிக்கிறது.
இந்த மொழியின் மீமொழியியல் செயலைத்தான் தொல்காப்பியம் ஓரளவு சங்கேதமாக
சுட்டிக்காண்பிக்கிறது
பொருண்மை தெரிதலுஞ் சொன்மை தெரிதலுஞ்
சொல்லின் ஆகும் என்மனார் புலவர்.
கற்பவரின் இந்த இயல்பான மொழியியல் திறன் , தன்னிடம் பேசுபவரிடம்
மறுபடியும் அதை தத்ரூபமாக திருப்பிச் சொல்லும்படி கேட்கச்சொல்லும் (ஓரளவு
செவிடாக பாசாங்கு செய்து, பேசுபவரை கொஞ்சம் உரக்க பேசக் கேட்பது போன்ற
வழிகள்)
அப்படியெனில், நான் ஏன் இதை மின் தமிழ் குழுமத்திற்கு ஆங்கிலத்தில்
எழுதுனேன்? ஏனெனில் இந்த எண்ணங்களை செம்மையாகவும், காறாராகவும் என்னால்
தமிழில் செய்ய முடியவில்லை என நினைக்கிறேன்
----------------------------------------------------------
விஜயராகவன்
On 22 Feb, 09:02, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jeanluc.chevill...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Dear Kannan,
>
> there is another parameter which I forgot to mention:
> it is of course the presence of English.
>
> In order try to learn Tamil,
> in the early eighties
> I often had to pretend not to know English.
>
> After a few words exchanged in Tamil,
> people would switch to English.
>
> My standard constant answer was that I was French and did not know English.
>
> Or I might ask them whether they knew French,
> find out that they did not
> (there are very few French speakers in Pondicherry),
> and conclude that we had to manage
> our communication with the only language
> which we had in common, namely Tamil.
>
> Therefore, among the factors that make Tamil difficult to learn,
> is the fact that native Tamil speakers
> (especially those who have a good command of English)
> expect (or prefer to think)
> that any foreigner will prefer English,
> to a mixture of vernacular Tamil and formal Tamil,
> which is in fact what I am able to use
> [and which will include from time to time one English word/expression,
> for which I don't have in my immediate memory the Tamil equivalent,
> although I may have a passive knowledge of it].
>
> The EXPECTATIONS of the target society
> in any learning situation
> play an important role
> in what the learner manages to learn.
>
> Therefore, after an initial period where progress is fast,
> one reaches a "plateau",
> in which progress becomes slow,
> or even very slow,
> because progress would mean an enormous increase
> in the active vocabulary,
> in order to fulfill the needs of intellectual communication.
>
> A possible answer to the problem
> is to equip the learner with EPILINGUISTIC SKILLS,
> i.e. the spontaneous manifestations of the METALINGUISTIC function of
> language,
> that function which allows one to use language in order to comment/talk
> about language.
>
> The metalinguistic function of language is what is alluded to in the
> தொல்காப்பியம் verse which says:
> பொருண்மை தெரிதலுஞ் சொன்மை தெரிதலுஞ்
> சொல்லின் ஆகும் என்மனார் புலவர்.
> (TC153i)
>
> Those epilinguistic skills
> will allow the learner to ask,
> among other things,
> for VERBATIM repetion
> of what has just been said
> (pretending to be slightly deaf ..., asking people to speak louder ...
> are possible techniques but they are not the only ones)
>
> That being said,
> why did I say all that in English,
> in this my present message to the மின்-தமிழ் குழுமம்?
>
> It is because I don't think I am able to express
> those thoughts efficiently and clearly,
> in dignified Tamil.
>
> தயவு செய்து, நான் மேலே எழுதினதெல்லாம் தமிழில் மொழிபெயர்த்து அருளுங்கள்
>
> நன்றி
>
> ழான் லூய்க் செவ்வியார் (Paris)
>
> Le 2/20/2010 2:31 PM, N. Kannan a écrit :
>
>
>
> > Dear Jean:
>
> > Thank you so much for this wonderful feedback.
> > I completely sympathize with you as I face all the difficulties you
> > mentioned in learning Tamil in my Korean learning. Spoken Korean is so
> > very different from written Korean. They speak something and when you
> > stop them and ask, they say something entirely different. I see your
> > frustration fully.
> > Native speakers of Tamil and Korean often tell foreigners that their
> > language is the easiest and Noble one ;-))
>
> > I encourage you to delve in this further when you have time. It is
> > fascinating and it may open up a new door for my Korean learning !!
>
> > Kannan
>
> > On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 9:39 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard
> > <jean-luc.chevill...@univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:
>
> >> I hope this small beginning of a story
> >> throws light on some of the difficulties
> >> which a complete foreigner meets with
> >> when he/she want to learn Tamil.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jean-Luc Chevillard
மிக்க நனறி !
இது ஒரு பெரிய உதவி !
ழான்-லூய்க்
Jean-Luc Chevillard
here is one more comment on my two main messages
in this thread.
It comes professor Harold F. Schiffman, who posted it to the
Infitt_Tamil_Linguistics mailing list.
I am sending it to the Min_Tamil mailing list with his permission.
Best wishes
-- Jean-Luc
**************************
-------- Message original --------
Sujet: [infitt_tamil_linguistics:14] Learning Tamil as a foreign
language
Date : Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:42:35 -0800 (PST)
De : Harold F. Schiffman
Pour : INFITT_TAMIL_LINGUISTICS
I find Jean-Luc's description of the difficulties of learning Spoken
Tamil quite useful--they parallel my own experience, which took place
a decade or so earlier (in the mid-1960's). I had studied
Tamil for 3 years before coming to India, but the emphasis was always
on Literary Tamil, with almost no materials available at that time for
spoken. So when I arrived at Annamalai University where I was to
spend the year in September 1965 I almost had to start from scratch.
Fortunately Kumaraswamy Raja was there and began to tutor me, using
the materials he produced (Jean-Luc mentions them), and I also then
began interviewing students in the Linguistics department to get data
about their dialects, which varied a lot.
But many of the same problems cropped up that Jean-Luc mentions--the
way people would smile when you spoke Tamil, but then would answer in
LTamil, or in English. It was a constant battle to get people to
produce useful Tamil with/for you, instead of constantly putting up
roadblocks. I was even visited by some students who were DMK
devotees, who asked me not to continue studying spoken Tamil, because
it would lead to the "corruption" of the language. This despite the
fact that 65 million Tamils use it every day of their lives, for 95%
of their communication in Tamil!
I was supposed to be doing research on Tamil for a Ph.D. in
Linguistics, but constructing a corpus of data that I could use to say
something new about the language was problematical. I eventually
discovered some radio plays being broadcast on AIR in Trichy, all in a
"standard" kind of spoken Tamil. At first I recorded them by holding
up a microphone to the radio, but then I contacted them and they
agreed to give me recordings of 5 plays, which helped enormously (and
still astounds me, given the usual burocratic resistance to such
things.)
I wrote my dissertation on the Tamil aspectual system using the data
from those plays (and some other material) and then later, turned the
plays into teaching materials for spoken Tamil (advanced level). I
also constructed a grammar to go with the plays, and that was
published in 1979, as mentioned by Jean-Luc.
But we need much more--we need databases of spoken Tamil, available on
line for people to study all sorts of things. We could do this by
taking many of the Tamil "social" films that exist and transcribing
the sentences and putting the whole thing, sound files and
transcription, in a d-base. We could use this d-base to do "matched
guise" surveys, asking people to rate the person they hear using
various forms.
One note about getting people to speak spoken Tamil with you. I
discovered that when people spoke English in reply to my Tamil, if I
said (in Tamil) "You speak very good English. But I have come to
learn your beautiful language. Please speak Tamil with me." They
would then become my "ally" and would get others to speak with me,
too. Sometimes it would be in LT, but often they would agree to speak
spoken, too.
HS
--
===========================================================
உத்தம உறுப்பினர்களுக்கான மொழியியல் விவாதக் குழுமம்
===========================================================
*************************
விஜயராகவன்
இந்த மொழி பெயர்ப்பில் நான் சில சொற்களை பிரயோகப் படுத்தியுள்ளேன், அது
சரியாக (அல்லது மிகச்சரியாக) பொருந்தி, படிப்பவர்களுக்கு, ஆங்கில உரையின்
அர்த்தத்தை தருமா என அறிய ஆவலாக உள்ளேன்:
பேச்சுதமிழயும், கட்டான தமிழையும் vernacular Tamil and formal Tamil
இயல்பு மொழித் திறமை EPILINGUISTIC SKILLS
செம்மையாகவும், காறாராகவும் efficiently and clearly
மீமொழியியல் METALINGUISTIC
EPILINGUISTIC SKILLS என்பது பொதுவாக ஆங்கிலத்தில் Unconscious
(language) learning ability , spantaneous learning ability - குறிப்பாக
குழந்தை பிராயத்தில்- போன்ற பொருள்கள் கொடுக்கின்றது.
விஜயராகவன்
On 23 Feb, 00:46, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jeanluc.chevill...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
தாரகை
செம்மையாகவும், தெளிவாகவும் என்று இருந்தால் செழிப்பாக இருக்க
வாய்ப்புள்ளது. காறார் - சற்றுக் கடினமாக உள்ளது.
> மீமொழியியல் METALINGUISTIC
குறியீட்டு மொழியியல் என்ற மொழிபெயர்ப்பு ஏற்கனவே உள்ளது என
நினைக்கிறேன். இருப்பினும், ஒரு மொழியோ அல்லது அதன் சொல்விளக்கத்தை
ஆராயும் தன்மை என்ற பொருள் கொண்டது - METALINGUISTIC - அது அப்படி
"மீமொழியியல்" என்ற ஐயம் உள்ளது!
> பேச்சுதமிழயும், கட்டான தமிழையும் vernacular Tamil and formal Tamil
formal language - முறைசார் மொழி
vernacular Tamil - வட்டார பேச்சுத் தமிழ்
விஜயராகவன்
> > செம்மையாகவும், காறாராகவும் efficiently and clearly
>
> செம்மையாகவும், தெளிவாகவும் என்று இருந்தால் செழிப்பாக இருக்க
> வாய்ப்புள்ளது. காறார் - சற்றுக் கடினமாக உள்ளது.
நீங்கள் சொல்வதை ஒத்துக் கொள்கிறேன்.
>
> > மீமொழியியல் METALINGUISTIC
>
> குறியீட்டு மொழியியல் என்ற மொழிபெயர்ப்பு ஏற்கனவே உள்ளது என
> நினைக்கிறேன். இருப்பினும், ஒரு மொழியோ அல்லது அதன் சொல்விளக்கத்தை
> ஆராயும் தன்மை என்ற பொருள் கொண்டது - METALINGUISTIC - அது அப்படி
> "மீமொழியியல்" என்ற ஐயம் உள்ளது!
`மீ` META என்பதின் ஈடாக பலர் பிரயோகிக்கிறன்ர், எ.கா. மீபொருள்வாதம்-
metaphysics.
META விற்க்கு இன்னொரு சொல் `பர` , பரலோகம், பரதேசி என்பது போல.
> > பேச்சுதமிழயும், கட்டான தமிழையும் vernacular Tamil and formal Tamil
>
> formal language - முறைசார் மொழி
>
> vernacular Tamil - வட்டார பேச்சுத் தமிழ்
வட்டார பேச்சு என்றால் dialect என்ற அர்த்தம் கொடுக்கிறது. “வட்டார
பேச்சு” ஒரு கலைச் சொல். ஆங்கில மூலத்தில் அப்படி சொல்லவில்லை.
`முறைசார் மொழி` சரியாக இருந்தாலும் சுருக்கமாக இல்லை.
விஜயராகவன்
LNS
write Tamil (after learning Hindi and English) was strange. I spoke
Tamil at home, Hindi outside and English at school. The trouble with
learning to read and write Tamil formally - at home - was that it was
nothing like the language we spoke at home. Learning short verses by
heart was fine but they were still too cryptic to be educational in
the language that we were learning. The other aspect of the problem
was a sense of the divine with which Tamil was considered by both my
parents so they were loath to simplification and colloquialization.
Tamil was holy, Hindi and English were not - that made learning Tamil
harder, not easier. It was quite okay to be tentative and make
mistakes as part of the learning process in Hindi and English but not
in Tamil.
When I was 10 or so, Tamil was simultaneously the quotidian language
we spoke at home, the language of the thiruppavai and thiruppugazh
that one heard in song, the language of the bharathanatyam padam's
like theruvil vaaraano, kaalai thookki, thaye yasodha etc and songs in
near contemporary language popularized by concert artistes like yaro
ivar yaro, eppadi padinaro tec and last but not the least, the
language of the high flown Tamil dialogs one heard in Sivaji Ganesan
movies like bale pandiya, thiruvailaiyadal etc . I guess then one
didn't attach too much importance to the diversity of Tamil. If one
had, one would have ended up in the mad house :) But suddenly as one
grew out of teens into early 20's, things seemed to gradually fall
into place.
If one's not brought up in Tamilnadu in a traditional environment,
Tamil requires far more time for absorption than say Hindi. Tamil's
ancestry and heritage influence every bit of Tamil teaching - whether
you learn it in school or from your Mother. More Modern languages
don't routinely talk of things so far removed in space and time. Stuff
like 'sapai natuvE nITTOlai vAciyA nin2RAn2' simply will not be
encountered in Hindi. It will be in Sanskrit but then Sanskrit is
acknowledged to be ancient and hard. But then there's no premium to
learning Sanskrit since it is not your Mother tongue. Tamil therefore
presents a double whammy.
My own feeling is that it's a good idea to teach contemporary Tamil
first to keep the barrier low before the great and pithy verses are
taught. It's important to teach the gems of Tamil but all in good
time. Purely from a pedagogical perspective, the gems of Tamil should
be considered to be written in a different language.
My 2c,
LNS
On Feb 20, 8:23 am, வினோத் ராஜன் <vinodh.vin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Learning Standard Tamil is akin to learning a completely new Language.
>
> And with regards to all that Mother Tongue learning stuff, I always
> wondered what different would it make if we chose Standard Tamil to
> English/French or whatever. None is actually used by the children, and
> in all cases, they are alien to the day-to-day language used by the
> kids, and essence they learn something entirely new during
> schooling. Duh ! what big difference is it going to make ?
>
> V
>
> On Feb 20, 5:39 pm, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevill...@univ-
>
>
>
> paris-diderot.fr> wrote:
> > Dear Kannan,
>
> > I was already tempted to give a few details
> > when the thread
> > "தமிழ் மொழியைக் - கற்பிப்பதும் கற்றுக் கொள்வதும் எப்படி?"
> > started three days ago
> > but I did not have the time at that moment to read all the messages
> > in the thread and then the thread seemed to deviate
> > towards a discussion of the script reforms advocated by some
> > and I decided to abstain.
>
> > I suppose that the problem of learning Tamil as a second (or third,
> > etc.) language
> > is not the same at all
> > *(A)* in the case of a complete foreigners, like me,
> > and
> > *(B)* in the case of the children of Tamil expatriates (in the USA, the
> > UK, Germany, France, etc.)
> > who live they daily lives in a universe dominated by another language
> > (English, German, French, etc.)
> > but who have at home their parents who are native speakers of Tamil.
>
> > And
> > *(C)* the case of people who live in India,
> > who have Kannada, Telugu, Hindi, etc.
> > as a mother tongue
> > and who pick up Tamil as an additional language
> > is certainly also very different
>
> > Therefore, what I shall try to summarize
> > concerns only the *(A)* case
> > (and not *(B)* or *(C)*).
>
> > As Vijayaraghavan put it on the other thread,
> > (SEE:
> > <http://groups.google.com/group/mintamil/browse_thread/thread/964d1483...>)
>
> > "A Tamil learner must first decide whether he wants to learn Spoken
> > Tamil or Written tamil."
>
> > My initial choice was that I wanted to study "Spoken Tamil",
> > because, being a student of linguistics at the time of my first coming
> > to India
> > (in july 1981), I thought that it was the only one which was REAL.
>
> > Before coming to India,
> > I had acquired 2 books:
>
> > The first one was a method by Pierre Meile (1911-1963)
> > /Introduction au tamoul/, G. P. Maisonneuve , Paris, 1945
>
> > The second one was
> > /An Introduction to colloquial Tamil/
> > by J.R. Marr, P. Kothandaraman, A. Kandiah
> > (Copyright 1971: School of Oriental and African Studies, Voluntary
> > Service Overseas, Revised 1979)
>
> > The first one was very useful for learning the script
> > and for getting a preliminary idea of the verbal and nominal paradigms
> > in Written Tamil.
>
> > The second one was my first exposure
> > to the Tamil diglossia, which came as quite a shock,
> > when I started to try to understand the logic
> > connecting the various columns in some pages:
> > -- the Spoken Tamil (in transliteration)
> > -- the English equivalent
> > -- the Written Tamil (in Tamil script)
>
> > Since I am sure most people on the list won't be able to read the diacritics
> > which would be necessary for reproducing the 1st column,
> > and to give you an idea of the way the data was provided
> > by Marr, Kothandaraman, and Kandiah,
> > I shall the Tamil script both for the 1st and the 3rd columns.
>
> > There was for instance on the page 13, the following words:
>
> > வர்றே(ன்) I come வருகிறேன்
>
> > வர்றிங்க(ள்) you come வருகிறீர்கள்
>
> > செய்யிறே(ன்) I do, I make செய்கிறேன்
>
> > செய்யிறிங்க(ள்) you do செய்கிறீர்கள்
>
> > etc.
>
> > Therefore, you might say that I was warned about what to expect,
> > even before setting foot on the Indian soil.
>
> > When I arrived, I saw indeed that the script was identical with what I
> > had learned
> > (I could read the word சென்னை)
> > but as far as spoken Tamil was concerned,
> > it was quite a shock.
>
> > I acquired more books, like for instance:
>
> > /A Progressive Grammar of the Tamil Language/, by A.H. Arden, revised by
> > A.C. Clayton, The Christian Literature Society.
> > (fifth reprint, 1976)
>
> > /Grammatika Tamil'skogo Jazyka/, M.S. Andronov, Izdatel'stvo "Nauka",
> > Moskva 1966
> > (it was for sale at NCBH on Mount Road)
>
> > /A Grammar of Spoken Tamil/, Harold Schiffman (University of
> > Washington), The Christian Literature Society, 1979.
>
> > I told my new Tamil friends at the Lycée Français de Pondichéry
> > that I wanted to learn Tamil
> > [[At the lycée, I was teaching mathematics, as a Voluntary 2 years Civil
> > Service,
> > because I had some degrees and diplomas in Mathematics,
> > and because I did not want to do a (1 year) military service
> > (for which the civil service was considered as an acceptable (longer)
> > substitute)]]
>
> > A Tamil teacher offered to help me.
>
> > I was thus regularly visiting Mrs ச. மதனகல்யாணி,
> > who was at the time teaching Tamil to the pupils of the Lycée Français,
> > and she gave me a lot of useful explanations.
>
> > I also tried other ways
>
> > I decided to also acquire school books for children (1st standard, 2nd
> > standard),
> > in order to see how children were taught.
>
> > One day, I was sitting on the sea side and trying to memorize the
> > vocabulary in some children school books
> > and some unknown man started to speak with me
> > and also offered to give me lessons in Tamil.
>
> > I agreed
> > and went the next day to the small hut on the outskirts of Pondicherry
> > (without electricity)
> > where he was living with his wife and children
> > to have a lesson of another kind,
> > with "teachers" who were to become
> > the first in a series of informants
> > in my linguistics field work.
>
> > In all those early experiments (in 1981),
> > the difficult thing was the discrepancy
> > I felt between what people tried to teach me
> > and what they really spoke themselves.
>
> > It was quite tricky to disentangle between all those varieties.
>
> > The variety of Tamil described in the books by Meile or by Arden/Clayton
> > was visible everywhere but was never heard,
> > except in very special cases (some speeches, etc.)
> > or when people were reading from books.
>
> > And the varieties of Spoken Tamil
> > described by Marr, Kothandaraman, and Kandiah
> > or by Schiffman
> > was often "almost" there,
> > but what I could pick up with my own ears
> > was often slightly different, or sometimes very different,
> > like for instance the local equivalent of forms like
> > பேசிக் கொண்டு,
> > which did not become பேசி கிட்டு
> > as expected but something else in Pondicherry.
>
> > Standard Spoken Tamil
> > was elusive: it was understood but not used
> > as "by the book".
>
> > And of course, when I asked people to repeat what they had just said,
> > they would say something different :-)
>
> > A few weeks later,
> > I heard that a book, /Conversational Tamil/
> > by (the late) N. Kumaraswamy Raja
> > was available at the Annamalai University press.
>
> > I went there and bought it
> > (and of course many other books).
>
> > When I went back to Pondicherry,
> > I had a look at that book
> > and decided that I would try to have
> > all the lessons in Spoken Tamil in that book
> > translated into the Pondicherry dialect.
> > by my informants.
>
> > This was of course only the beginning of a long story
>
> > Later, I started to make recordings of folk tales
> > on audio cassettes
> > and to transcribe them.
> > (I had come to India with a tape recorder).
>
> > I wanted to have more spontaneous data.
>
> > My involvement with Modern written Tamil,
> > came after more than one year of immersion into spoken Tamil.
> > [I started to feel that my picture of Tamil was incomplete
> > without the other half of the diglossia]
>
> > Later, I also became interested in Classical Tamil.
>
> > That would be a very very long story
>
> > I hope this small beginning of a story
> > throws light on some of the difficulties
> > which a complete foreigner meets with
> > when he/she want to learn Tamil.
>
> > Best wishes
>
> > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
>
> > Le 2/20/2010 1:36 AM, N. Kannan a écrit :
>
> > > Dear Jean:
>
> > > Though it is not exactly a part of this thread, you may give us some
> > > feedback on learning Tamil as a second language.
>
> > > Thanks.
>
> > > Kannan
N. Kannan
I was always fascinated by Tamil dialects. I encourage people to give
us samples of their dialects. Except a few did not make an effort.
The reasons?
1. An educated Tamil is made to believe that texual Tamil is the true Tamil.
2. Most of the dialects are caste based and nobody wants to talk about
caste or identify with any caste. The Brahmins were rather loud with
their dialects during 50s,60s but shut down by DK & DMK
3. Most dialects are regional as well. With Tamil cinema being a
powerful medium, a common cinema Tamil has come in to vogue.
Kannan
விஜயராகவன்
the Tamil we hear is only to be laughed at. It is only comedians -
generally - who humanise a situation
Tamil comedians do overact. As long as their overacting is
disregarded, we can hear ordinary Tamil. Comedians all the way from
Baliah, Nagesh to Vivek are good in reproducing ordinary spoken
Tamil.
On Youtube a I saw a clip of 'batlle of dialects' , in a film by Vivek
in which a visiting Srilankan poitical speaker in Madras causes a
riot.
Vijayaraghavan
> > Best wishes- Hide quoted text -
வினோத் ராஜன்
N. Kannan
திருநெல்வேலிப் பேச்சில் பின்னிப் பெடலெடுப்பார்கள் ;-)
க.>
நன்றி வினோத்! விவேக் எங்கள் கல்லூரி மாணவர்தான்!
2010/2/24 வினோத் ராஜன் <vinodh...@gmail.com>:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exHC9aEkQuA
>
> :-)
>
> V
Innamburan Innamburan
இந்த முறை என்னை மிகவும் கவர்ந்தது.
பின் குறிப்புகள்:
--
Jean-Luc Chevillard
I am sorry I was not able to comment more quickly on your message
of last week (included below) but I was taken by other pending tasks.
FIRST of all,
I would like to say "thank you" to you
for sharing your long (and practically-oriented) experience
concerning language teaching/learning on this public forum.
I find it very useful and I am sure there are others here
who share my perception.
SECONDLY,
I would like to connect what you told us,
concerning the challenges pertaining to mastering many languages
(German, Hindi, etc.)
with the challenges of modern intellectual international life.
Intellectual debates
are carried over from one language to another one.
(from English to Tamil & from Tamil to English)
(from German to English and from English to German)
(from Tamil to German and from German to Tamil)
(.................)
We have, for instance,
been discussing inside this thread
the possibility of finding in Modern Tamil
the equivalents of such linguistic technical terms as
"metalinguistic" and "epilinguistic".
There was for instance
a message where Vijayaraghavan
posted a tentative translation into Modern Tamil
of something I had said in English
(SEE: <http://groups.google.com/group/mintamil/msg/6a0e0b78821e9343>)
and there were some comments by Kannan Natarajan
(SEE: <http://groups.google.com/group/mintamil/msg/b0094576c69c739d>).
I would now like to go further into the genealogy of these technical terms.
As regards "metalinguistic",
and the "metalinguistic function" of language,
one possible viewpoint is to see it as one inside a constellation of 6
technical terms,
which the well-known Russian linguist Roman Jakobson [1896-1982]
{{for whom a page is already available on the Malayalam Wikipedia at
<http://ml.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B4%B1%E0%B5%8B%E0%B4%AE%E0%B5%BB_%E0%B4%AF%E0%B4%BE%E0%B4%95%E0%B5%8D%E0%B4%95%E0%B5%8B%E0%B4%AC%E0%B5%8D%E0%B4%B8%E0%B5%BA>
but not yet on the Tamil one}}
has enumerated.
They are:
-- F1. the EMOTIVE function of language
-- F2. the CONATIVE function of language
-- F3. the REFERENTIAL function of language
-- F4. the PHATIC function of language
-- F5. the METALINGUISTIC function of language
-- F6. the POETIC function of language
(See:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics#Jakobson.27s_Six_Functions_of_Language>
for some brief explanations)
However,
it should be added that when Roman Jakobson enunciated his list of 6
functions of language,
he was amplifiying a list created by a German scientist,
named Karl Bühler
(See for instance the following 1960 article by Roman Jakobson,
where he recognizes his debt to K. Bühler,
and explains how he has amplified a list of 3 functions of language
described by K. Bühler
into a list of 6 functions of language:
"Closing Statements: Linguistics and Poetics", in T.A. Sebeok (ed.),
/Style in Language/, New York.
Bühler's original list was the following:
B1: "the expressive function", CORRESPONDING to Jakobson's EMOTIVE
function (F1)
B2: "the appelative function", CORRESPONDING to Jakobson's CONATIVE
function (F2)
B3: "the representative function", CORRESPONDING to Jakobson's
REFERENTIAL function (F3).
But of course, Bühler
was not originally writing in English,
he was writing in German
and the terms he used in his well-known 1934 book /Sprachtheorie/ are:
"Ausdruck", "Appell" and "Darstellung"
(see <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organon-Modell>)
Therefore,
some of the challenges of modern Tamil intellectual life are to be able
to express
all those distinctions in Modern Tamil.
If the list could be adapted (and expanded) from German to English,
both the original list and its expansion can certainly also be adapted
to Tamil.
And of course, the genealogy of the technical term "epilinguistic"
also remains to be discussed
but this message is certainly already long enough ;-)
Best wishes to all.
அன்புடன்
-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
<http://www.linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~chevilla/>
> **
> *முடிவுகள் (ஏகமனதாக அல்ல).*
Jean-Luc Chevillard
as an addendum to my message posted yesterday evening,
I want to tell you that
upon waking up this morning,,
I found a message from a friend who kindly informed me
that a Tamil page on Roman Jakobson (உரோமன் யாக்கோபுசன்)
had just been created.
I am impressed!
You can now see a Tamil translation of the six technical terms I have
mentionned,
copied from the new Wikipedia page
(not including the chart):
<BEGIN QUOTE>
இடாய்ச்சுலாந்தைச் சேர்ந்த கார்ல் பியூலர் (Karl Bühler) என்பாரின் பகுப்புறுப்பியல்
(ஓர்கானொன் மோடல், Organon-Model) கருத்துகளின் அடிப்படையில் யாக்கோபுசன் மொழியின்
தொடர்பியலின் இயக்கங்களில் ஆறு கூறுகளை முன்வைத்தார்.
மொழியின் ஆறு செயற்கூறுகள்:
1. சூழல் சார்வு (referential)
2. கருத்து, தன்னழகு, கலையுணர்வு (aesthetic)
3. தன்னுந்தல் (emotive)
4. செயற்தூண்டல் (conative)
5. இணக்கக்குசலம் (phatic)
6. மீமொழி (metalingual)
மேற்கண்ட ஆறு கூறுகளின் எப்பொழுதும் ஒன்று மொழி அல்லது உரையின் வகையைப் பொருத்து
முதன்மையானதாக இருக்கும். எடுத்துக்காட்டாக செய்யுள் அல்லது பாட்டியலில் கலையுணர்வு
தலைதூக்கி இருக்கும்.
<END QUOTE>
This is food for thought
Best wishes to all
-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
<http://www.linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~chevilla/>
N. Ganesan
On Mar 4, 1:31 am, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevill...@univ-
paris-
diderot.fr> wrote:
> Dear MinTamil list members,
> as an addendum to my message posted yesterday evening,
> I want to tell you that
> upon waking up this morning,,
> I found a message from a friend who kindly informed me
> that a Tamil page on Roman Jakobson (உரோமன் யாக்கோபுசன்)
விசயராகவன் போன்றவர்கள் கவனிக்க வேண்டியது:
ழான் - லூய்க் ஏன் உரோமன் யாக்கோபுசன் என்று எழுதுகிறார்?
என்று நாம் சிந்திப்போம்.
சென்னைப் பத்திரிகைகள் விடா என்றறிவோம்.
தமிழின் 30 எழுத்துக்களால் மீக்குறி கொண்டு எழுதும்முறையை
ரெ.கா. கேட்டுள்ளார். விரிவாக எழுதுவேன்.
பின்னர் எல்லோரும் சேர்ந்து அப்படியும் ஒருமுறையை
கணினியில் வகுக்கலாம்.
நா. கணேசன்
> had just been created.
> See:
> <http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%89%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8B%E0%AE%AE%E0%...>
> I am impressed!
> <BEGIN QUOTE>
> <END QUOTE>
> Best wishes to all
> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
> <http://www.linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~chevilla/>
> > <http://ml.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B4%B1%E0%B5%8B%E0%B4%AE%E0%B5%BB_%E0...>
> > but not yet on the Tamil one}}
> > has enumerated.
> > They are:
> > -- F1. the EMOTIVE function of language
> > -- F2. the CONATIVE function of language
> > -- F3. the REFERENTIAL function of language
> > -- F4. the PHATIC function of language
> > -- F5. the METALINGUISTIC function of language
> > -- F6. the POETIC function of language
> > (See:
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics#Jakobson.27s_Six_Functions_of...>
> > for some brief explanations)
> > Best wishes to all.
> > அன்புடன்
> > -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
> > <http://www.linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~chevilla/>
...
read more »
Jean-Luc Chevillard
in commenting on your comment upon my message,
it is possible to make use of Roman Jakobson's terminology.
When I sent my message,
the dominant fonctions were:
-- the REFERENTIAL function and the CONATIVE function
But in your reply,
it seems that the dominant functions are
-- the PHATIC function and the METALINGUISTIC function ;-)
Would you agree?
-- ழான்-லூய்க் (Paris)
Le 3/4/2010 2:57 PM, N. Ganesan a écrit :
>
> On Mar 4, 1:31 am, Jean-Luc Chevillard<jean-luc.chevill...@univ-paris-
> diderot.fr> wrote:
>
>> Dear MinTamil list members,
>>
>> as an addendum to my message posted yesterday evening,
>> I want to tell you that
>> upon waking up this morning,,
>> I found a message from a friend who kindly informed me
>> that a Tamil page on Roman Jakobson (உரோமன் யாக்கோபுசன்)
>>
> விசயராகவன் போன்றவர்கள் கவனிக்க வேண்டியது:
>
> ழான் - லூய்க் ஏன் உரோமன் யாக்கோபுசன் என்று எழுதுகிறார்?
> என்று நாம் சிந்திப்போம்.
>
> சென்னைப் பத்திரிகைகள் விடா என்றைவோம்.
>
> தமிழின் 30 எழுத்துக்களால் மீக்குறி கொண்டு எழுதும்முறையை
> ரெ.கா. கேட்டுள்ளார். விரிவாக எழுதுவேன்.
>
> பின்னர் எல்லோரும் சேர்ந்து அப்படியும் ஒருமுறையை
> கணினியில் வகுக்கலாம்.
>
> நா. கணேசன்
>
>
>> had just been created.
>>
>> See:
>> <http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%89%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8B%E0%AE%AE%E0%...>
>>> (from English to Tamil& from Tamil to English)
>>> (from German to English and from English to German)
>>> (from Tamil to German and from German to Tamil)
>>> (.................)
>>>
>>
>>> We have, for instance,
>>> been discussing inside this thread
>>> the possibility of finding in Modern Tamil
>>> the equivalents of such linguistic technical terms as
>>> "metalinguistic" and "epilinguistic".
>>>
>>
>>> There was for instance
>>> a message where Vijayaraghavan
>>> posted a tentative translation into Modern Tamil
>>> of something I had said in English
>>> (SEE:<http://groups.google.com/group/mintamil/msg/6a0e0b78821e9343>)
>>> and there were some comments by Kannan Natarajan
>>> (SEE:<http://groups.google.com/group/mintamil/msg/b0094576c69c739d>).
>>>
>>
>>> I would now like to go further into the genealogy of these technical
>>> terms.
>>>
>>
>>> As regards "metalinguistic",
>>> and the "metalinguistic function" of language,
>>> one possible viewpoint is to see it as one inside a constellation of 6
>>> technical terms,
>>> which the well-known Russian linguist Roman Jakobson [1896-1982]
>>> {{for whom a page is already available on the Malayalam Wikipedia at
>>> <http://ml.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B4%B1%E0%B5%8B%E0%B4%AE%E0%B5%BB_%E0...>
>>>
>>
>>> but not yet on the Tamil one}}
>>> has enumerated.
>>>
>>
>>> They are:
>>> -- F1. the EMOTIVE function of language
>>> -- F2. the CONATIVE function of language
>>> -- F3. the REFERENTIAL function of language
>>> -- F4. the PHATIC function of language
>>> -- F5. the METALINGUISTIC function of language
>>> -- F6. the POETIC function of language
>>> (See:
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics#Jakobson.27s_Six_Functions_of...>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »
>>
>
விஜயராகவன்
You have pointed out with linguistic terminology what I wanted to say
in ordinary Tamil. Let's see if Shri.Ganesan gets it
Vijayaraghavan
On 4 Mar, 14:11, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jeanluc.chevill...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
OAGAI NATARAJAN
Jean-Luc Chevillard
You are absolutely right !!!
Cinema is a great boon!
I attach to this message,
a few pages scanned from the "முழு வசனம்" of the first Tamil movie which
I have ever seen
[அலைகள் ஓய்வதில்லை] in 1981.
Reading such booklets
(and watching such movies)
is the best way of learning "Standard Spoken Tamil",
especially if one can also use a grammatical description such as the one
made by Professor SCHIFFMAN in his twin set:
** A Grammar of Spoken Tamil/, Harold Schiffman (University of
Washington), The Christian Literature Society, Chennai, 1979.
** Reader for Advanced Spoken Tamil; Harold F. Schiffman, Department of
Asian Languages and Literature, University of Washington, Seattle,
Washington 98195; Part I: Rado Plays; september 1971, U.S. Department of
Helath, Education and Welfare, Office of Education, Institute of
International Studies.
[I bought the 1st element in Chennai in 1981 and obtained the second
element after writing to Professor Schiffman (in 1981 or 1982)]
All the best
-- ழான்-லூய்க் [Paris]
விஜயராகவன்
diderot.fr> wrote:
>
> You can now see a Tamil translation of the six technical terms I have
> mentionned,
> copied from the new Wikipedia page
> (not including the chart):
>
> <BEGIN QUOTE>
>
> இடாய்ச்சுலாந்தைச் சேர்ந்த கார்ல் பியூலர் (Karl Bühler) என்பாரின் பகுப்புறுப்பியல்
> (ஓர்கானொன் மோடல், Organon-Model) கருத்துகளின் அடிப்படையில் யாக்கோபுசன் மொழியின்
> தொடர்பியலின் இயக்கங்களில் ஆறு கூறுகளை முன்வைத்தார்.
>
> மொழியின் ஆறு செயற்கூறுகள்:
>
> 1. சூழல் சார்வு (referential)
> 2. கருத்து, தன்னழகு, கலையுணர்வு (aesthetic)
> 3. தன்னுந்தல் (emotive)
> 4. செயற்தூண்டல் (conative)
> 5. இணக்கக்குசலம் (phatic)
> 6. மீமொழி (metalingual)
>
> மேற்கண்ட ஆறு கூறுகளின் எப்பொழுதும் ஒன்று மொழி அல்லது உரையின் வகையைப் பொருத்து
> முதன்மையானதாக இருக்கும். எடுத்துக்காட்டாக செய்யுள் அல்லது பாட்டியலில் கலையுணர்வு
> தலைதூக்கி இருக்கும்.
>
> <END QUOTE>
This is a typical archaic and stupid Tamil promoted by the Thanith
Thamiz talibans controlling Tamil wiki. Take the word
"இடாய்ச்சுலாந்தை". Beileve it or not, this is supposed to be Germany.
The word ஜெர்மனி is used by everybody . If you make a Google search,
you get 216,000,000 pages. But the Grantha letter ஜெ is to be avoided
by a convoluted way இடாய்ச்சு. இடாய்ச்சு is unreadable and not known
to Tamil reading public. This is a typical way in which to spite the
enemy, one's own nose is cut.
Another archaic grammatical form is உரோமன். ரோமன் is perfectly OK.
The Google pages for ரோமன் outnumber the other form by 6 times.
The other translations are also confusing
சூழல் சார்வு cannot be 'referential' becuase சூழல் usually means
environment. 'referential' means குறித்தல்
கருத்து, தன்னழகு, கலையுணர்வு (aesthetic) is also no good.
Aesthetic can be called அழகுணர்வு . Expressions like கருத்து, தன்னழகு,
கலையுணர்வு miss the point by many miles.
தன்னுந்தல் (emotive) is also misleading. In English wiki 'emotive' is
used in contradistinction to தன்னுந்தல்.
செயற்தூண்டல் (conative) comes close , but not quite
இணக்கக்குசலம் (phatic) is wordy , even though phatic means இணக்கம்.
விஜயராகவன்
Jean-Luc Chevillard
I register your objections
to the terminological choices made by our friend
who made the first Jakobson sketch on the tamil Wikipedia, last night..
HOWEVER, is there not too much of the EMOTIVE function in your message?
(among the 9 rasa-s, which one should be dominant for scientific
communication?)
After all, we are only trying to establish
whether Tamil already
possesses a stabilized vocabulary subset
which could be used for expressing the distinctions made by Роман
Осипович Якобсон
or whether some new terminology has to be created from scratch.
In the long run,
for any objective scientific pursuit,
the most important function is is the REFERENTIAL function
(we have to agree on what we are talking about)
[and, as Ludwig Wittgenstein put it:
„Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.“
"What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence"
[Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, Proposition 7]
Don't you think so?
I, for my sake, believe there is no need for indignation, in the present
case.
-- Jean-Luc (Paris, France)
விஜயராகவன்
diderot.fr> wrote:
> Dear Vijayaraghavan,
>
In the long run,
> for any objective scientific pursuit,
> the most important function is is the REFERENTIAL function
> (we have to agree on what we are talking about)
> [and, as Ludwig Wittgenstein put it:
> „Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.“
> "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence"
> [Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, Proposition 7]
>
> Don't you think so?
I agree, it so happens I can still speak few things !! Silence is some
distance yet.
Since the thing refererred to is the Tamil wiki article, it's
terminilogy is certainly an object of cricism in terms of Wiki
objectives.
>
> I, for my sake, believe there is no need for indignation, in the present
> case.
>
> -- Jean-Luc (Paris, France)
I understand your position. My position is that something common such
as Wiki artilces should be in language and form used and understood by
majority of people. It is not a platform to promote some people's
prejudices. Yet, that is what it is at present.
Vijayaraghavan
தாரகை
> as Wiki artilces should be in language and form used and understood by
> majority of people. It is not a platform to promote some people's
> prejudices. Yet, that is what it is at present.
I appreciate Jean-Luc Chevillard for his sincere comment that
"emotive" function seem to be the undercurrent in certain individual's
perception!
There are many Thamizh words wrongly spelt & incorrectly connoted in
the www. Those faulty word spellings perk in the www due to the
ignorance or naivety of certain individuals. Citing instances of
people continuing to use the faulty Thamizh word spellings or more
number of occurrences of a word in the Google search engine is an act
of frivolity. One need to understand that Google picks up the number
of times the words are used - whether spelt correctly or incorrectly &
rate them accordingly, rather than looking at the "orthography" in the
respective languages. Listening to one of the Google language
directors in a recent forum, some of the learned language professors
mentioned that Google need to rate the words with an accurate
orthographic (spelling) style rather than the numeracy of the words
used in the Google search engine.
We need to learn & re-learn the correct spellings in Thamizh words.
Its not a crime to know the correct grammatical way of writing the
words along with the pronunciation at any age. Rather than playing the
blame-game, one needs to rationalise that resurrecting the right way
of spelling is in a way better for the language to be well understood
by a common man. Criticising is in no way a developmental
step,especially if their are no constructive component attached to it!
Though,some seem to continue the tirade with no ends!
Despite the differences in certain word spellings in the English
language - behaviour to behavior, recognise - recognize. We know what
the gate-keepers in English language would prefer. Adulteration seems
to be condoned for certain other things in respect to sexual,
commodities, edibles etc. BUT if it comes to Thamizh language - those
who strive to retain the poise & decorum in Thamizh words are
condemned as Tamil Talibans! Despite the multiplicity of Thamizh
websites, Thamizh Wiki is trying something different - in word
renaissance - which is NOT tried by any other Thamizh websites, well
it is experimental - still people need to have tolerance to
acknowledge alternatives. I fear that some of the discussion
commentaries in this thread reflect more a scare-mongering tactic
about Thamizh Wiki's word purification & clearing the prevailing
epidemic amongst the mis-informed bigots.
N. Ganesan
On Mar 4, 1:31 am, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevill...@univ-paris-
diderot.fr> wrote:
> Dear MinTamil list members,
>
> as an addendum to my message posted yesterday evening,
> I want to tell you that
> upon waking up this morning,,
> I found a message from a friend who kindly informed me
> that a Tamil page on Roman Jakobson (உரோமன் யாக்கோபுசன்)
> had just been created.
>
> See:
> <http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%89%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8B%E0%AE%AE%E0%...>
>
> I am impressed!
>
Me as well. Thanks for showing us a beautiful Tamil translation
from Tamil Wikipedia.
N. Ganesan
> > <http://ml.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B4%B1%E0%B5%8B%E0%B4%AE%E0%B5%BB_%E0...>
>
> > but not yet on the Tamil one}}
> > has enumerated.
>
> > They are:
> > -- F1. the EMOTIVE function of language
> > -- F2. the CONATIVE function of language
> > -- F3. the REFERENTIAL function of language
> > -- F4. the PHATIC function of language
> > -- F5. the METALINGUISTIC function of language
> > -- F6. the POETIC function of language
> > (See:
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics#Jakobson.27s_Six_Functions_of...>
N. Kannan
ஜெர்மனியில் வாழ்ந்த போது சக விஞ்ஞானிகள் சொல்வர், தொலைக்காட்சி நிறையப்
பாருங்கள் என்று. ஆனால், அங்கு எனக்கு அது உதவவில்லை. ஏனெனில்
ஜேம்ஸ்பாண்ட் படங்களை ஆங்கில மூலத்தில் பார்த்து ரசித்த என்னால் அவர்
ஜெர்மன் மொழியில், மாற்றுக்குரலில் (பெரும் பாலும் ஒரே ஆளே
ஜேம்ஸ்பாண்டிற்கும், ஜீசஸ் கிரைஸ்டுக்கும் பேசுவார்) பேசுவதை உள்வாங்க
முடியவில்லை.
கொரியாவில் வேறு பிரச்சனை. Koreans are so good in film making and
visual language, I don't need Korean learning to understand their
films. I watch Korean films with love but my Korean has never improved
:-))
Kannan
Swarna Lakshmi
From: N. Kannan <navan...@gmail.com>
To: mint...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 25 February, 2010 4:45:24 AM
Subject: Re: [MinTamil] Re: Learning Tamil as a second language
Kandavel Rajan
ரொம்ப சோகமான படம் கண்ணன் - நான் சிறு பெண்ணாயிருக்கும் போது பார்த்துவிட்டு விக்கி விக்கி அழுதிருக்கிறேன்...கூகிள் செய்தால் எங்கேயும் இருப்பதாகத் தெரியவில்லை...
நட்புடன்,
கந்தவேல் ராஜன் ச.