Vallina Tejuelo etc
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alasda...@yahoo.co.uk
Feb 9, 2012, 4:56:04 AM2/9/12
to Matienzo Caves
After the trip in Vallina last summer with the Dingles, Rachel etc.
the Catalans said they might go back there in November. Does anyone
know if they made it?
Otherwise it might be worth another trip at Easter.
Looking at the French blog
http://cuevasdelason.canalblog.com/archives/informations__noticias/index.html
they show a postulated link from Tejuelo to Molino. The map showing
that & the Matienzo caves could also suggest Tejuelo is or has been
just a little inlet into Renada/Matienzo, perhaps?
the Catalans said they might go back there in November. Does anyone
know if they made it?
Otherwise it might be worth another trip at Easter.
Looking at the French blog
http://cuevasdelason.canalblog.com/archives/informations__noticias/index.html
they show a postulated link from Tejuelo to Molino. The map showing
that & the Matienzo caves could also suggest Tejuelo is or has been
just a little inlet into Renada/Matienzo, perhaps?
L Mills
Feb 9, 2012, 6:52:27 AM2/9/12
to matien...@googlegroups.com
I also have been following the cuevasdelason.canalblog.com. It's not the easiest site to navigate (not as good as Matienzo Caves!), and it's not as up to date but it does have interesting indications of what is going on in the Meira-Tejuelo area. My own thoughts for what they are worth, is that we are looking at a regional integrated cave system of extreme size.
Is it too simplistic to think that all the water from the tops above the Ason and Meira valleys has in the past seen considerably greater flows (glaciation at these levels). The water has found its way north and taken every route it could to reach sea level.
It was always thought that the Ason as it cut back from Ramales captured some of this drainage and in doing so removed some of the cave passages heading North. This has left remnents at levels well above the present river levels a good example would be Canyuela on the South side of the Busablado valley and Vallina / Renada on the North side. Surely these must have been part of the same system heading North.
The present resurgence for Cayuela, Cobriamente, is lower and much younger than the old level between Cayuela and Vallina. The french work in Orcones is indicating that there may well be an extensive phreas below the top end of the Bustablado Valley. Molino could be a spill over from this mega phreas and could be fed by present drainage from Tejuelo, Vallina and other stuff over towards the Meira. The main flow may not be going there though and may be going to Aguanaz.
All this is speculation as no dye tests have been carried out as far as I know. The Cayuela, Cobriamente connection has been proved though.
This is of course only considering where the water goes now.
Ali says is the old flow path an "inlet to Matienzo" my thoughts would be yes and to all the caves we already know about to the North also. Renada Vallina Mustajo, Regaton, Toad, Emboscados and all the other bits at this higher level were probably integrated in this South North drainage from the South.
If we move to the NW, and where I think a lot of the present day drainage goes now, Aguanaz, there is not now the thickness of Limestone to support these higher level caves and they have been eroded. What I think we have left in that area (Cobadal, Coimbre) are the lower level younger "Vadose" remnents. This of course doesn't mean there are not long caves to find in that area but the lower we go the smaller they may be.
Ways into the bigger stuff (if the theory is right) might be Hoyon, back end of Toad (that's a thought!) Vaca, Encaramada, Tejuelo and associated big caves and the new cave at Coimbre.
There are a number of dye-tests which would answer some of the questions about present flows but they could be quite hard to carry out and need lots of "dye".
The french are obviously working on the area round Orcones, not much detail on the dives but they seem to have made considerable progress towards Molino, what about the other direction?
I think there is evidence for these thoughts in the NW and plenty of speculation about the Fresnodo, Torno, Uzueka, LLiano, Riano, Vaca set up( another integrated system or part of the same?, to keep us going for a while.
Lets have some comments . Lank
Is it too simplistic to think that all the water from the tops above the Ason and Meira valleys has in the past seen considerably greater flows (glaciation at these levels). The water has found its way north and taken every route it could to reach sea level.
It was always thought that the Ason as it cut back from Ramales captured some of this drainage and in doing so removed some of the cave passages heading North. This has left remnents at levels well above the present river levels a good example would be Canyuela on the South side of the Busablado valley and Vallina / Renada on the North side. Surely these must have been part of the same system heading North.
The present resurgence for Cayuela, Cobriamente, is lower and much younger than the old level between Cayuela and Vallina. The french work in Orcones is indicating that there may well be an extensive phreas below the top end of the Bustablado Valley. Molino could be a spill over from this mega phreas and could be fed by present drainage from Tejuelo, Vallina and other stuff over towards the Meira. The main flow may not be going there though and may be going to Aguanaz.
All this is speculation as no dye tests have been carried out as far as I know. The Cayuela, Cobriamente connection has been proved though.
This is of course only considering where the water goes now.
Ali says is the old flow path an "inlet to Matienzo" my thoughts would be yes and to all the caves we already know about to the North also. Renada Vallina Mustajo, Regaton, Toad, Emboscados and all the other bits at this higher level were probably integrated in this South North drainage from the South.
If we move to the NW, and where I think a lot of the present day drainage goes now, Aguanaz, there is not now the thickness of Limestone to support these higher level caves and they have been eroded. What I think we have left in that area (Cobadal, Coimbre) are the lower level younger "Vadose" remnents. This of course doesn't mean there are not long caves to find in that area but the lower we go the smaller they may be.
Ways into the bigger stuff (if the theory is right) might be Hoyon, back end of Toad (that's a thought!) Vaca, Encaramada, Tejuelo and associated big caves and the new cave at Coimbre.
There are a number of dye-tests which would answer some of the questions about present flows but they could be quite hard to carry out and need lots of "dye".
The french are obviously working on the area round Orcones, not much detail on the dives but they seem to have made considerable progress towards Molino, what about the other direction?
I think there is evidence for these thoughts in the NW and plenty of speculation about the Fresnodo, Torno, Uzueka, LLiano, Riano, Vaca set up( another integrated system or part of the same?, to keep us going for a while.
Lets have some comments . Lank
> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 01:56:04 -0800
> Subject: Vallina Tejuelo etc
> From: alasda...@yahoo.co.uk
> To: matien...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Vallina Tejuelo etc
> From: alasda...@yahoo.co.uk
> To: matien...@googlegroups.com
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harry long
Feb 9, 2012, 11:27:29 AM2/9/12
to matien...@googlegroups.com
Many of Lank's comments were stated in, perhaps, slightly different ways in various bits of the thread which ran in March, 2009. More recent discoveries (French and British) have only served to strengthen some of the views expressed then. Indeed, I suggested that people ought to be thinking on the lines of a huge regional system and this seems ever more likely to be the case.
Water flowing northwards from the Upper Ason (and, possibly, the Miera) would have had the potential to have drained to numerous resurgences at different times - again, with the possibility of spilling from various risings at high stage as is now being suggested for Molino. The greatest overall hydraulic gradient would always have been from south to north and valley floor lowering over time would have truncated some parts of the system and also allowed deepening of the caves to give levels of development at successively lower altitudes.
As some indication of what is being suggested, think of the size of the valley running from Riano down to Hornedo and ask yourself where the water came from to form it. There is really only one logical conclusion and that is from various active stream caves, combined with the fact that unroofing of certain major east-west flowing stretches of passage could have helped the process considerably. There is very little high ground at the head of the valley to provide a large surface catchment area - only, currently, steep slopes dropping from relatively narrow ridges and cols although, obviously, these will have reduced in size with time.
Caves such as Vaca, Encaramada and Nabo were possibly all major inlets to this set up and may still have. as yet. undiscovered links between them. The surface channel from the entrance to The Cave of the Wild Mare is not yet graded to the main river channel suggesting that the cave, through the very immature bedding passages beneath the main passage floor, is still trying to adjust to the present valley floor although much of the former flow through the cave (and Vaca) is probably now being captured by passages draining to Aguanaz, except at times of high stage.
Obviously, a very large programme of dye testing would provide answers to some of the questions now being raised. This would require considerable thought, time and money but after 50 years of exploration our knowledge of current drainage routes is fairly abysmal! The right dye tests - positive and negative - would help define the present drainage and would, perhaps, help in our understanding of earlier flow patterns.
Harry
Water flowing northwards from the Upper Ason (and, possibly, the Miera) would have had the potential to have drained to numerous resurgences at different times - again, with the possibility of spilling from various risings at high stage as is now being suggested for Molino. The greatest overall hydraulic gradient would always have been from south to north and valley floor lowering over time would have truncated some parts of the system and also allowed deepening of the caves to give levels of development at successively lower altitudes.
As some indication of what is being suggested, think of the size of the valley running from Riano down to Hornedo and ask yourself where the water came from to form it. There is really only one logical conclusion and that is from various active stream caves, combined with the fact that unroofing of certain major east-west flowing stretches of passage could have helped the process considerably. There is very little high ground at the head of the valley to provide a large surface catchment area - only, currently, steep slopes dropping from relatively narrow ridges and cols although, obviously, these will have reduced in size with time.
Caves such as Vaca, Encaramada and Nabo were possibly all major inlets to this set up and may still have. as yet. undiscovered links between them. The surface channel from the entrance to The Cave of the Wild Mare is not yet graded to the main river channel suggesting that the cave, through the very immature bedding passages beneath the main passage floor, is still trying to adjust to the present valley floor although much of the former flow through the cave (and Vaca) is probably now being captured by passages draining to Aguanaz, except at times of high stage.
Obviously, a very large programme of dye testing would provide answers to some of the questions now being raised. This would require considerable thought, time and money but after 50 years of exploration our knowledge of current drainage routes is fairly abysmal! The right dye tests - positive and negative - would help define the present drainage and would, perhaps, help in our understanding of earlier flow patterns.
Harry
Juan
Feb 9, 2012, 12:41:44 PM2/9/12
to Matienzo Caves
The thread for earlier discussion (March 2009) which Harry mentions
is
https://groups.google.com/group/matienzocaves/browse_thread/thread/874f67fae54dc37b?hl=en#
(The first few posts are about "Uzueka: Sima Baz")
is
https://groups.google.com/group/matienzocaves/browse_thread/thread/874f67fae54dc37b?hl=en#
(The first few posts are about "Uzueka: Sima Baz")
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