Uzueka: Sima Baz

[Footleg]

Can anyone shed any light on the Sima Baz area of Uzueka? I'm trying
to draw up this area on the 4 valleys master survey, and the passage
below the 9m pitch does not fit the survey data. The survex centreline
appears to extend beyond the downstream end of the drawn up passage on
the 1975 survey (
http://www.geography.lancs.ac.uk/Matienzo/surveys/0107-1975-one.jpg ).
The upstream part of this passage on the 1975 survey is much
straighter than the survex centreline data. Plus, if you look at the
survex file, the passages off Pigs Trotters Chamber ('God Knows
passage', not present on the 1975 survey) appears to come within 4m of
this upstream end of the passage below the Sima Baz pitch. Was a
connection ever made between these?

Footleg

[Juan]

A particularly complex area which may need resurveying?

[Terry Whitaker]

At 11:45 01/03/2009 -0800, you wrote:

A particularly complex area which may need resurveying?

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Hi Juan & Footleg
I would be happy to organise a surveying trip to that area (Pigs Trotters/Sima Baz etc) this Easter if you would like that.
Terry

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Dr Terence M. Whitaker,
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[Footleg]

Terry, that would be excellent. There is so much survey data around
there that appears to be duplicate surveys of the same passages, that
it needs a good pair of eyes to revisit it and make sense of it all.

Footleg

2009/3/1 Terry Whitaker <t.whi...@btinternet.com>:

[L Mills]

Hi Uzueka Surveyors,  You can count me in at Easter. I may not be the keen pair of eyes required but I am probably guilty of multiple surveying without keeping proper records. It will be good to get the area sorted. I had already planned to resurvey the Dog Series. I am also fairly confident there is a lot of passage yet to find / survey in this area.
 
The highest level of passage we found above Pigs Trotters has never been linked to the rest as far as I know (Jane Toby and I involved ).
 
As for the Sima Baz series, as far as I know there have been very few if any revists to this area. We have though looked at passages off the main entrance passage which must be very close to connecting to point "a" in the downsream section of Sima Baz series.
 
As Juan says it is very complicated!
 
Cheers,  Lank  

 
> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 21:34:32 +0000
> Subject: Re: Uzueka: Sima Baz
> From: drfo...@googlemail.com
> To: Matien...@googlegroups.com

[Footleg]

> It will be good to get the area sorted. I had
> already planned to resurvey the Dog Series.

Excellent! There are several loose ends around there too. On the
Riano/Uzueka survey (ink pen on tracing paper) there are two passages
going NE off the chamber after Flashbulb hall which cross over the top
of Quadraphenia, or possibly one connects with Pull-up Passage? There
us another passage going West from the top of a slope from the same
chamber which does not appear on any other drawings.

> The highest level of passage we found above Pigs Trotters has never been
> linked to the rest as far as I know (Jane Toby and I involved ).

Was that Wardrobe Passage? I found a scale drawing of that. It ends at
a pitch down into the God Knows Passage.

I've nearly finished redrawing all the existing data and previously
published surveys for the Uzueka entrance series (meaning everything
up to the start of the Gorilla Walk). These are the only passages in
the survey file which I can find no detailed drawings for:

Pull Up Passage:
As mentioned, the tracing shows this might connect to the chamber
beyond Flashbulb Hall, but the survey data shows it going in a
different direction all together.

Tilers Way:
Drawn on the tracing survey, but with no passage detail.

God Knows Passage:
Survex file appears to put it within 4m of end of Upstream passage
below Sima Baz. I have copies of original survey notes from file, but
no scale drawing.

Unnamed?
Passages going South approximately opposite downsteam end of sump
where Pig Trotters stream reemerges in crawls leading to Punk in the
Gutter.

I'll have print outs of the survey in progress ready for Easter. We
can then correct as much as possible underground. Plenty to do!

Footleg


2009/3/2 L Mills <mari...@msn.com>:

[Alasdair Neill]

Not sure how the areas off Quadraphenia we did last summer fit in, but I am dead keen to carry on with that area (done with Pedro & Pete Eagen). Pete dug a connection from an oxbow off Quad. into passage with footprints, but we've no idea what that was.

 

Seem to remember our centreline in Quadraphenia was quite different from others on the computer - presumably closed to Giant Panda entrance. Perhaps our compass, or someone else's, was faulty - the clino was calibrated, but not the compass. We left a marked station at the junction before Pigs Trotters, where Marathon Passage goes off. Perhaps the line from there to Giant Panda needs doing with a calibrated compass.

 

 

Regarding the Vallina dye trace, is this on? Have we got everything we need?

Thanks for those who offered to help. My input would probably be putting the stuff in Vallina. Hopefully someone who knows what they are doing will do the prep work - any offers? Presumably we need to pick the right weather.

 

Can we discount Aguanaz as the resurgence, or should that be included.

 

Ali.

[L Mills]

Hi Ali et al.
 
There is an interesting site by one of the folks working over towards the Miera. The blog is by Dirk Hermans and they are working on a cave called Alto Tejuelo. This is rapidly approaching 100Kms in length. They seem mad keen, going out from Belgium for very short trips and camping underground. If you look around the Secja-Wom website search for "Secja-Wom" you will find that there are plan surveys of this and other caves and they are rapidly approaching Bustablado up valley from Arredondo. In one of the discriptions of a stream passage they are following the make the comment "Bustablado here we come". There are two resurgences below the big high level cave called Canyuela which are at about the right height. But of interest to us, in connection with the Vallina project possible dye test,  is  the fact that Molino is also at the right height though on the other side of the valley. Particularly interesting is the fact that somewhere in Dirks blog is a set of photos taken in late January this year. They indicate that they have found a second streamway have put a plastic duck in it and made the comment "Fuente de la Molina here we come or straight to the Atlantic!"
 
I don't know the name of the two resurgences mentioned above and whether they have already done a dye test and already know where they are heading for.
 
It would be possible for the water to go beyond Bustablado and head towards Aguanaz our Molino could be connected to this set up plus Vallina.
 
I don't think we can discount Aguanaz as being where all this water resurges.
 
Torcon de Hoyon still needs thinking about.
 
Cheers Lank
 
 

 

---

Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 09:32:47 +0000
From: alasda...@yahoo.co.uk

Subject: Re: Uzueka: Sima Baz

To: Matien...@googlegroups.com

[Juan]

Nobody seems to be jumping in to take charge of this dye trace
project!
It may be better in any case to leave the trace until summer so that
decent discussions can take place and Dirk Hermans contacted for any
results he may have. There is also much more time to do things in the
summer. This project could be rather more complicated and protracted
than the Cobadal-Aguanaz test.
Juan

On 3 Mar, 13:31, L Mills <marive...@msn.com> wrote:
> Hi Ali et al.
>
> There is an interesting site by one of the folks working over towards the Miera. The blog is by Dirk Hermans and they are working on a cave called Alto Tejuelo. This is rapidly approaching 100Kms in length. They seem mad keen, going out from Belgium for very short trips and camping underground. If you look around the Secja-Wom website search for "Secja-Wom" you will find that there are plan surveys of this and other caves and they are rapidly approaching Bustablado up valley from Arredondo. In one of the discriptions of a stream passage they are following the make the comment "Bustablado here we come". There are two resurgences below the big high level cave called Canyuela which are at about the right height. But of interest to us, in connection with the Vallina project possible dye test,  is  the fact that Molino is also at the right height though on the other side of the valley. Particularly interesting is the fact that somewhere in Dirks blog is a set of photos taken in late January this year. They indicate that they have found a second streamway have put a plastic duck in it and made the comment "Fuente de la Molina here we come or straight to the Atlantic!"
>
> I don't know the name of the two resurgences mentioned above and whether they have already done a dye test and already know where they are heading for.
>
> It would be possible for the water to go beyond Bustablado and head towards Aguanaz our Molino could be connected to this set up plus Vallina.
>
> I don't think we can discount Aguanaz as being where all this water resurges.
>
> Torcon de Hoyon still needs thinking about.
>
> Cheers Lank
>

> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 09:32:47 +0000

> From: alasdairne...@yahoo.co.uk

> Subject: Re: Uzueka: Sima Baz
> To: Matien...@googlegroups.com
>
> Not sure how the areas off Quadraphenia we did last summer fit in, but I am dead keen to carry on with that area (done with Pedro & Pete Eagen). Pete dug a connection from an oxbow off Quad. into passage with footprints, but we've no idea what that was.
>
> Seem to remember our centreline in Quadraphenia was quite different from others on the computer - presumably closed to Giant Panda entrance. Perhaps our compass, or someone else's, was faulty - the clino was calibrated, but not the compass. We left a marked station at the junction before Pigs Trotters, where Marathon Passage goes off. Perhaps the line from there to Giant Panda needs doing with a calibrated compass.
>
> Regarding the Vallina dye trace, is this on? Have we got everything we need?
> Thanks for those who offered to help. My input would probably be putting the stuff in Vallina. Hopefully someone who knows what they are doing will do the prep work - any offers? Presumably we need to pick the right weather.
>
> Can we discount Aguanaz as the resurgence, or should that be included.
>
> Ali.
>

> _________________________________________________________________
> Free photo editing software from Windows Live . Try it now!http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665240/direct/01/

[Terry Whitaker]

Hi All
This system is to the South of the Arredondo-Bustablado valley it is called the Systema  del-alto del Tejuelo and was made by  connecting the Torca De Bernallán and Cueva de Los Moros making a system in excess of 85km, in Oct 08  the longest cave in Cantabria. Visit http://storage.canalblog.com/68/44/82770/6944235.jpg  for the survey & map. I suspect this was the system Phil was told us about at Christmas as being a link between the Miera & the Ason Valleys. It is unlikely to be hydrologicaly associated with Cueva Molino but there is confusion about the comment "Fuente de la Molina here we come or straight to the Atlantic!" As Lank says there are other resurgenges in the Bustablado Valley down stream from the Molino Rising and they may be using (incorrectly) the term Fuente de la Molina for those. Canuela is much higher than the Molino main passage development.
With regards to Aguanaz I agree that both Hoyn and Molino could sneak past the head of the Vega and go on to Aguanaz it it is less likely for Molino as Renada 2½  is so clos to the downstream siphon.
Regards
T

 


At 12:31 03/03/2009 +0000, Lank wrote:

Hi Ali et al.
 
There is an interesting site by one of the folks working over towards the Miera. The blog is by Dirk Hermans and they are working on a cave called Alto Tejuelo. This is rapidly approaching 100Kms in length. They seem mad keen, going out from Belgium for very short trips and camping underground. If you look around the Secja-Wom website search for "Secja-Wom" you will find that there are plan surveys of this and other caves and they are rapidly approaching Bustablado up valley from Arredondo. In one of the discriptions of a stream passage they are following the make the comment "Bustablado here we come". There are two resurgences below the big high level cave called Canyuela which are at about the right height. But of interest to us, in connection with the Vallina project possible dye test,  is  the fact that Molino is also at the right height though on the other side of the valley. Particularly interesting is the fact that somewhere in Dirks blog is a set of photos taken in late January this year. They indicate that they have found a second streamway have put a plastic duck in it and made the comment "Fuente de la Molina here we come or straight to the Atlantic!"
 
I don't know the name of the two resurgences mentioned above and whether they have already done a dye test and already know where they are heading for.
 
It would be possible for the water to go beyond Bustablado and head towards Aguanaz our Molino could be connected to this set up plus Vallina.
 
I don't think we can discount Aguanaz as being where all this water resurges.
 
Torcon de Hoyon still needs thinking about.
 
Cheers Lank

[Juan]

We were wandering around over the top of it, Terry when we walked up
to the summit of Muela from the road.
Juan

On 3 Mar, 22:20, Terry Whitaker <t.whitak...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Hi All
> This system is to the South of the
> Arredondo-Bustablado valley it is called the
> Systema  del-alto del Tejuelo and was made
> by  connecting the Torca De Bernallán and Cueva
> de Los Moros making a system in excess of 85km,

> in Oct 08  the longest cave in Cantabria. Visithttp://storage.canalblog.com/68/44/82770/6944235.jpg

> for the survey & map. I suspect this was the
> system Phil was told us about at Christmas as
> being a link between the Miera & the Ason
> Valleys. It is unlikely to be hydrologicaly
> associated with Cueva Molino but there is
> confusion about the comment "Fuente de la Molina
> here we come or straight to the Atlantic!" As
> Lank says there are other resurgenges in the
> Bustablado Valley down stream from the Molino
> Rising and they may be using (incorrectly) the
> term Fuente de la Molina for those. Canuela is
> much higher than the Molino main passage development.
> With regards to Aguanaz I agree that both Hoyn
> and Molino could sneak past the head of the Vega
> and go on to Aguanaz it it is less likely for
> Molino as Renada 2½  is so clos to the downstream siphon.
> Regards
> T
>

>  21a6875.jpg
> 560KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Juan]

PS ... see http://geography.lancs.ac.uk/Matienzo/cantab/muela-miera-jc-2008.jpg
for arather surreal picture of the summit.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[L Mills]

Hi Terry et al, A few extra comments in the text
 

---

Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 22:20:35 +0000
To: Matien...@googlegroups.com
From: t.whi...@btinternet.com
Subject: Cueva Molino etc

Hi All
This system is to the South of the Arredondo-Bustablado valley it is called the Systema  del-alto del Tejuelo and was made by  connecting the Torca De Bernallán and Cueva de Los Moros making a system in excess of 85km, in Oct 08  the longest cave in Cantabria. Visit http://storage.canalblog.com/68/44/82770/6944235.jpg  for the survey & map.
 

Have a look at the whole area map including the Matienzo Caves it is on the "Cuevas del Ason " site. If you scroll down quite a way. You can magnify it for the area around the caves we are discussing here.
 
It shows a resurgence near Cayuela ( the apparent new name for Canuela!) called Cubiobramante. Somwhere else on this site I have seen a photograph which shows two resurgences below Cayuela during a flood. One of these could be their Fuente de la Molina. I have seen a survey which shows passages in Cayuela which are at about 220m, much the same as our Molino. I agree the main drag from the entrance is much higher.

 
I suspect this was the system Phil was told us about at Christmas as being a link between the Miera & the Ason Valleys. It is unlikely to be hydrologicaly associated with Cueva Molino but there is confusion about the comment "Fuente de la Molina here we come or straight to the Atlantic!" As Lank says there are other resurgenges in the Bustablado Valley down stream from the Molino Rising and they may be using (incorrectly) the term Fuente de la Molina for those. Canuela is much higher than the Molino main passage development.
 

Not sure that we ever checked with locals about the name of our Molino, "ours" is called Cueva de Molino but probably because we saw a mill dam. I see no reason why the resurgence on the other side of the valley could not also be associated with a mill and called after that. So they could be heading for that underground.

With regards to Aguanaz I agree that both Hoyn and Molino could sneak past the head of the Vega and go on to Aguanaz it it is less likely for Molino as Renada 2½  is so clos to the downstream siphon.
Regards
 

Not sure what you mean Terry by the last bit, could you elaborate.
 
Cheers Lank

 


At 12:31 03/03/2009 +0000, Lank wrote:

Hi Ali et al.
 
There is an interesting site by one of the folks working over towards the Miera. The blog is by Dirk Hermans and they are working on a cave called Alto Tejuelo. This is rapidly approaching 100Kms in length. They seem mad keen, going out from Belgium for very short trips and camping underground. If you look around the Secja-Wom website search for "Secja-Wom" you will find that there are plan surveys of this and other caves and they are rapidly approaching Bustablado up valley from Arredondo. In one of the discriptions of a stream passage they are following the make the comment "Bustablado here we come". There are two resurgences below the big high level cave called Canyuela which are at about the right height. But of interest to us, in connection with the Vallina project possible dye test,  is  the fact that Molino is also at the right height though on the other side of the valley. Particularly interesting is the fact that somewhere in Dirks blog is a set of photos taken in late January this year. They indicate that they have found a second streamway have put a plastic duck in it and made the comment "Fuente de la Molina here we come or straight to the Atlantic!"
 
I don't know the name of the two resurgences mentioned above and whether they have already done a dye test and already know where they are heading for.
 
It would be possible for the water to go beyond Bustablado and head towards Aguanaz our Molino could be connected to this set up plus Vallina.
 
I don't think we can discount Aguanaz as being where all this water resurges.
 
Torcon de Hoyon still needs thinking about.
 
Cheers Lank

[Alasdair Neill]

There is certainly a flood resurgence somewhere just below the entrance to Cayuela which was issuing huge amounts of water at Easter last year, visible from the Vallina parking spot. I can't remember seeing any water coming from there before.

 

Rupe said a few Easters below that Molino water rose rapidly on a nice sunny day with major snow accumulations on the mountains above the Ason. The snow line was then a bit above the level of the top entrance of Cueto-Coventosa, so the water must have been coming from further south. How would the new system fit in with this? It would be intersting to see if similar conditions would have any effect on Aguanaz.

 

Ali.

 

 

[smith_p...@yahoo.es]

Hi
I'm not sure why Juan says no one is taking charge of the dye test,
surely Ali is! And when it was first mentioned I said I'd make up the
detectors and I know at least one person has offered to take the dye
into Rio Rioja. As Vallina is almost certain to go to Molino (I'm sure
Juan can give us the facts and figures: distance from the downstream
point Martin Holroyd reached to Rupert's limit in Molino, compared
with distance to Aguanaz) it has to go through a big deep phreas, so I
imagine it would be better when there is a reasonable flow and Easter
is a better bet than summer. And we don't really need to know if
they've dye-tested Alto Tejuelo or not as our intention is to make
sure where Valline goes.
More facts and figures: Alto Tejuelo was not the longest cave in
Cantabria in Oct 08,- sistema de Mortillano was the longest at 103 km
and sistema del Gandara the second longest at over 93 km - you'd know
if you read Descent!
Cheers
Pete

[Alasdair Neill]

I seem to remember Rupe's opinion recently was that Vallina water probably does NOT go to Molino in view of the amount of water going there from elsewhere (not sure if the latter is proved or just supposition). Looking at the survey of course one's first impression would be it does go there.

 

Presumably if we have everything for a trace at Easter, conditions are right & we have the people to do it it could go ahead, if not its taken 20 years so far so another 20 years would make no difference.

 

Ali.

---

[Terry Whitaker]

To explain
I  got my caves slightly mixed up
Rupert's dives in Molino show this is a very deep development at least 80m below the entrance  and perhaps we should currently consider this as being  the main resurgence for the area North of Bustablado and to the South of Vallina into which Torca Hoyon could feed.
Ali's information from Rupert  "Molino water rose rapidly on a nice sunny day with major snow accumulations on the mountains above the Ason. The snow line was then a bit above the level of the top entrance of Cueto-Coventosa, so the water must have been coming from further south. How would the new system fit in with this?"
This presents a clue as it implies northward drainage from the Ason highland but unless one is prepared to imagine a submerged 'U bend' full of  water at levels at about 210m OD passing directly under the Bustablado Valley, without leakage, any such drainage conduit must be at least 2 or 3 km to the West of the rising probably involving the afore mentioned Systema  del-alto del Tejuelo.
To the North of Molino is Vallina; Pete says "As Vallina is almost certain to go to Molino (I'm sure
Juan can give us the facts and figures: distance from the downstream point Martin Holroyd reached to Rupert's limit in Molino, compared with distance to Aguanaz).
Is this correct? I though much of Vallina is part of a different drainage unit  into the asymmetric syncline South and East of Puerta Alisas probably associated with Cubio de la Reñada and the Comellante [Comediante] resurgence.
In Vallina  I was under the impression that the downstream syphon of the Rio Rioja, was dived by Phil Pappard and later by Martin Holroyd, is a large passage heading down dip, and is only about 400m South of the Reñada II area of upstream Reñada and at about the same altitude [Juan is this right?].
Its altitude  suggests that the unknown passage would  have to go along the strike (and up dip ) to pass round the head of the Vega Valley as caveable passage, or go very deep to pass under it to Aguanaz. It is more likely this is associated with the Westward trending passage dived upstream by Killer in Reñada II. A visit back to the unsurveyed boulders [is this Neils Bit?] and maze in Reñada II½ should be considered a high priority in summer.
[Can Juan give us chapter and verse on these diving explorations  please].
The end of Torca Hoyon is to the Southwest of Puerta Alisas and would have more scope to go north towards Campos Delante although it is much more likely to go East into the syncline to Reñada II or Southeast to "Molino" The dye test to  Comellante should be considered 'in doubt' and needs repeating. The description of this site also needs revisiting and an alternative entrance? via a passage above the entrance pitch needs to be checked out by bolting.
I take the point that "our" resurgence cave near Bustablado called Cueva de Molino may not have been given its local name. We need to check that naming! a good excuse to visit the three excellent bars of Bustablado.
The dye test as Pete says is  organised
Cheers
Terry

At 23:49 03/03/2009 +0000, Lank wrote:

With regards to Aguanaz I agree that both Hoyon and Molino could sneak past the head of the Vega and go on to Aguanaz it it is less likely for Molino as Renada 2½  is so close to the downstream siphon.

Regards
 
Not sure what you mean Terry by the last bit, could you elaborate.
 
Cheers Lank

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

[Terry Whitaker]

Hi all again
Further to my last e-mail delayed by ISP downtime; I spoke with Martin Holroyd last night and asked him about his farthest point of the Rio Rioja downstream sump. He noted that although the passage forked it was still trending down dip.  However it was not getting any closer to Reñada. The North (i.e. the branch closest to Reñada) goes deep, which is to be expected as it is turning straight down maximum dip. Its depth meant that it couldn't be pushed further at that time. The other branch looked more attractive as a dive, being shallower, but he ageed that it was much more likely to be an inlet branch [from further South and West] under Vallina, than a link to Molino.
With regards to the table of altudes: Remember absolute altitudes have no relevance as to where water is likely to go in a closed tube environment [phreatic]; unlike in a vadose environment.
Regards
T

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

[harry long]

As a relative newcomer I have been somewhat reluctant to join the debate about Vallina, Molino, Renada and the direction of water flows. However, I think Terry is confusing things somewhat as, if I am seeing things correctly, the final point reached by Martin in the downstream sump in Rio Rioja in Vallina is very nearly equi distant from Rupe's end point diving upstream in Molino, and from Renada 21/2. There would seem to be very little vertical difference between Rupe's end point and Martin's if the Survex data is to be believed altho' there is a horizontal difference of 1,635 metres. I'm not certain what the figures actually are across to Renada, although the horizontal distance looks to be about 1,500 metres.
 
I can see no reason why different flows can't overspill between adjacent caves under high stage conditions and, if applicable here, could lead to a very complicated picture (as Juan has already implied). This becomes more extreme if the possibility of flows to Aguanaz are considered. Certainly, on the basis of the best possible overall hydraulic gradient this would seem quite probable.
Flows from Tejuela could also feed into a passage running to Aguanaz as well as providing a possible reason for Rupe's comments about the short time frame for a flood flow to hit Molino when conditions are right for a rapid thaw up the Ason. Chris Camm and John Southworth have commented about the time lag evident in flood flows arriving at Aguanaz and this could be explained quite simply by the extra distance involved for flows coming from the Tejuela area or, to complicate things even more, the Miera!
 
For these, and other reasons, I think people should stop looking at some of the systems as being discrete entities, and should see them instead as parts (perhaps truncated in some cases) of an overall regional set up - i.e. think along the lines of the Mammoth Cave/Flint Ridge system. After all, the 4 Valleys System looks like becoming 5 if the final 40 or 50 metres can be pushed from Torno thro' to Riano and who is to say what other connections await future discovery.
 
THINK BIG.
 
Harry
 
 
 
 

---

Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 13:48:48 +0000
To: Matien...@googlegroups.com
From: t.whi...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: Cueva Molino etc

[Juan]

Contribution from Santi:

More information about resurgences: I don?t know if you are planning
to check, as well, the one is near Arredondo. Patrick, a French caver,
told that one resurgence is very close to the village, in direction to
Riva, in the East side. They have the impression few people know this
source. It doesn?t appear in the map made by French cavers and sent by
Juan. It seems to me it would be the closest point from Vallina.
Some French cavers (no Patrick), are, as well, exploring a cave with
strong drought above the mentioned resurgence, about 100 meters higher
from the river.
I hope this information will be useful.
Santi

[Juan Corrin]

Answers to recent queries:

From Terry : In Vallina  I was under the impression that the downstream syphon of the Rio Rioja, was dived by Phil Pappard and later by Martin Holroyd, is a large passage heading down dip, and is only about 400m South of the Reñada II area of upstream Reñada and at about the same altitude [Juan is this right?].

No - down stream Vallina is 1.6km S of Reñada 2.5 and perhaps 40m higher

From Harry : I'm not certain what the figures actually are across to Renada, although the horizontal distance looks to be about 1,500 metres.

See previous answer.

You can check all this using the Aven / Survex area map at www.matienzo.org.uk/all.3d or downloading the same file from the maps page.

Juan

 

_________________________
<B>Juan Corrin</B>
England: +44 1706 874669
Spain: +34 942 619931
Mobile: +44 7815 745072
Skype: juanpennycorrin

-----Original Message-----
From: harry long <str...@hotmail.co.uk>
To: matien...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 17:56
Subject: RE: Cueva Molino etc

As a re lative newcomer I have been somewhat reluctant to join the debate about Vallina, Molino, Renada and the direction of water flows. However, I think Terry is confusing things somewhat as, if I am seeing things correctly, the final point reached by Martin in the downstream sump in Rio Rioja in Vallina is very nearly equi distant from Rupe's end point diving upstream in Molino, and from Renada 21/2. There would seem to be very little vertical difference between Rupe's end point and Martin's if the Survex data is to be believed altho' there is a horizontal difference of 1,635 metres. I'm not certain what the figures actually are across to Renada, although the horizontal distance looks to be about 1,500 metres.

 
I can see no reason why different flows can't overspill between adjacent caves under high stage conditions and, if applicable here, could lead to a very complicated picture (as Juan has already implied). This becomes more extreme if the possibility of flows to Aguanaz are considered. Certainly, on the basis of the best possible overall hydraulic gradient this would seem quite probable.

Flows from Tejuela could also feed into a passage running to Aguanaz as well as providing a possible reason for Rupe's comments about the short time frame for a flood flow to hit Molino when conditions are right for a rapid thaw up the Ason. Chris Camm and John Southworth have commented about the time lag evident in flood flows arriving at Aguanaz and this could be explained quite simply by the ex tra distance involved for flows coming from the Tejuela area or, to complicate things even more, the Miera!

 
For these, and other reasons, I think people should stop looking at some of the systems as being discrete entities, and should see them instead as parts (perhaps truncated in some cases) of an overall regional set up - i.e. think along the lines of the Mammoth Cave/Flint Ridge system. After all, the 4 Valleys System looks like becoming 5 if the final 40 or 50 metres can be pushed from Torno thro' to Riano and who is to say what other connections await future discovery.
 
THINK BIG.
 
Harry
 
 
 
 

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Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 13:48:48 +0000
To: Matien...@googlegroups.com
From: t.whi...@btinternet.com
Subject: Re: Cueva Molino etc

Hi all again
Further to my last e-mail delayed by ISP downtime; I spoke with Martin Holroyd last night and asked him about his farthest point of the Rio Rioja downstream sump. He noted that although the passage forked it was still trending down dip.  However it was not getting any closer to Reñada. The North (i.e. the branch closest to Reñada) goes deep, which is to be expected as it is turning straight down maximum dip. Its depth meant that it couldn't be pushed further at that time. The other branch looked more attractive as a dive, being shallower,=2 0but he ageed that it was much more likely to be an inlet branch [from further South and West] under Vallina, than a link to Molino.

With regards to the table of altudes: Remember absolute altitudes have no relevance as to where water is likely to go in a closed tube environment [phreatic]; unlike in a vadose environment.
Regards
T

At 09:23 05/03/2009 +0000, Ali wrote:

I seem to remember Rupe's opinion recently was that Vallina water probably does NOT go to Molino in view of the amount of water going there from elsewhere (not sure if the latter is proved or just supposition). Looking at the survey of course one's first impression would be it does go there.
 
Presumably if we have everything for a trace at Easter, conditions are right & we have the people to do it it could go ahead, if not its taken 20 years so far so another 20 years would make no difference.
 
Ali.

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Dr Terence M. Whitaker,
4, Crowtrees,
Low Bentham,
Via LANCASTER
LA2 7EE
UK
Tel +44 (0) 15242 62269
Mob O2 +44 07895025359
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[harry long]

Thanks for the info Juan. The only reason I didn't quote precise figures (by using the Survex data) was because I'm not certain exactly where the upstream sump in Renada 2.5 is. I knew my figure of 1.5km wasn't going to be that far adrift, and my point about downstream Vallina being equi distant from Renada and Molino holds good.
 
Harry

 

---

To: Matien...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Cueva Molino etc

Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 15:49:17 -0500
From: uzu...@aol.com

[Alasdair Neill]

Regarding the resurgences to Tejuela, there is a map near the back of the recent Cantabrian bulletin showing all the systems on the western side of the Ason gorge, including Molino. Looking at this last night, what I assume is the downstream passage seems to be heading straight towards the resurgence below Cayuela (which is named but I forgot to note its name down). Of course this does'nt mean it couldn't turn north or another part of the system head that way.

 

Ali.

[harry long]

The name of the resurgence below Cayuela is Cubiobramante. Whilst this may be a resurgence for one of the streamways in Tejuelo (which is heading straight for it) it would seem that there are other streamways further to the west in the Muela -Tejuelo system and which may drain elsewhere - Aguanaz for example!
 
On the map shown on the page headed 'Porracolina, Geologie, Hydrologie' on the Cuevas del Ason web site there is a stream sink shown to the north, north west of Bustablado which could well be a feeder to Molino. Does anyone know anything about this sink?
 
Harry
 

---

Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 09:20:08 +0000
From: alasda...@yahoo.co.uk

Subject: Re: Cueva Molino etc

To: Matien...@googlegroups.com

[Juan Corrin]

The AutoCad map shows 2 sinks to the NW of Bustablado at about 240 and 270m altitude. But this needs to be checked out on the ground as many of the map's blue lines are fictitious or only appear in a downpour.
Upstream water surface in Molino is at about 205m altitude and 1.5km away to the east.

Juan

_________________________
<B>Juan Corrin</B>
England: +44 1706 874669
Spain: +34 942 619931
Mobile: +44 7815 745072
Skype: juanpennycorrin

-----Original Message-----
From: harry long <str...@hotmail.co.uk>
To: matien...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 14:04
Subject: RE: Cueva Molino etc

[Phil & Hilary]

If we get as much caving done at Easter as replies to this web group
things look good. Clearly dye testing is needed, but as Juan has
suggested it may be better to wait until the summer when the longer
time people are out may give us a better chance to do all that is
needed. I am concerned about elevations, we know the plan positions
are not too bad, but elevations are likely to have quite a significant
error, especially with gently dipping systems where small systematic
errors in clinometer ( eg Jim Penrith surveying with Mandy) can
seriously add-up. Some depth measurements using a "mole phone" could
help sort out some of the issues.

I am happy to help with surveying projects, when me Juan, Mandy and
Jason have finished with grabbing prior to the main group getting to
the happy valley.


Phil

[Carmen Smith]

Yikes Yes Mole Phone...thanks Phil...am on to it....

Carm

-----Original Message-----
From: Matien...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Matien...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Phil & Hilary
Sent: 06 March 2009 19:57
To: Matienzo Caves
Subject: Re: Cueva Molino etc

[L Mills]

Hi All,  Interesting discussion about when and if a "dye test" should be done.
 
What is this "dye". Are we talking Optical Brightener or "dye" ,people offering support must I suppose know. Where is the stuff ,how much  do we have. Do we need permission?
 
I feel Easter would be better, more potential flows, if the multiple resurgence theory in high flow works, then better  to do it then than in lower flow.
 
Does this impact on the possible similar scenario over Cobadal,Vaca,Aguanaz
 
Are there not folks out there on a regular enough basis to take samples etc. after the Easter flush
 
I am beginning to think there is an enormous  deep phreas beneath  and west of the village of Bustablado, is it floating? A sinclinal bowl with bits flowing over the edges where it happens. Molino, Cubiobramante (below Cuyeuela), Aguanaz .
 
 
 
> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 11:57:21 -0800

> Subject: Re: Cueva Molino etc

> From: pap...@easynet.co.uk
> To: Matien...@googlegroups.com

[Juan]

There's some optical brightener in Matienzo left over from the Cobadal
test - I don't know how much. Ian may still have the UV detector.
Juan

> _________________________________________________________________
> Free photo editing software from Windows Live . Try it now!http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665240/direct/01/- Hide quoted text -

[Juan]

This text is taken from the 2002 article on the web site:

In Cueva-Cubio de la Reñada (site 48), various new explorations
occurred. Mark Smith & Gavin McPherson dived in the upstream sump just
after the Rub-a-Dub-Dubs gaining about 100m of underwater passage by
the end of the summer. This is described as heading due west for about
100m and continuing in an impressive oval 3m high x 5m wide with a
sandy floor. Exploration in known passage "behind" this sump noticed
that there was a lot more water flowing out of this main sump than in
any streams further in.

The dive took place on 6th August and the passage was not surveyed. On
the area map Survex file http://geography.lancs.ac.uk/Matienzo/all.3d
the sump after the Rub-a-Dub-Dubs starts just under Horse Torugh Pot
(shown in orange).

Juan

[harry long]

Juan,
In the 1998 article on the web site is the sentence "To the east of Vallina, Cuenca cavers
are exploring large passages which must be part of the same system". Where did this info
come from and do you have any more detail - survey etc please?
Harry

 
> Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 07:17:12 -0700

> Subject: Re: Cueva Molino etc

> From: juanc...@matienzo.org.uk
> To: Matien...@googlegroups.com

[Juan Corrin]

Harry
There are two sites - probably 1745 and 1760. Both have surveys on the web site and both are on Google Earth in the Cave Surveys / Piluca folder.
Cheers

Juan

_________________________
<B>Juan Corrin</B>
England: +44 1706 874669
Spain: +34 942 619931
Mobile: +44 7815 745072
Skype: juanpennycorrin

-----Original Message-----
From: harry long <str...@hotmail.co.uk>
To: matien...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:12
Subject: RE: Cueva Molino etc

Juan,
In the 1998 article on the web site is the sentence "To the east of Vallina, Cuenca cavers
are exploring large passages which must be part of the same system". Where did this info
come from and do you have any more detail - survey etc please?
Harry

 
> Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 07:17:12 -0700
> Subject: Re: Cueva Molino etc
> From: juanc...@matienzo.org.uk
> To: Matien...@googlegroups.com
>
>
> This text is taken from the 2002 article on the web site:
>
> In Cueva-Cubio de la Reñada (site 48), various new explorations

> occurred. Mark Smith & Gavin McPherson=2 0dived in the upstream sump just

> after the Rub-a-Dub-Dubs gaining about 100m of underwater passage by
> the end of the summer. This is described as heading due west for about
> 100m and continuing in an impressive oval 3m high x 5m wide with a
> sandy floor. Exploration in known passage "behind" this sump noticed
> that there was a lot more water flowing out of this main sump than in
> any streams further in.
>
> The dive took place on 6th August and the passage was not surveyed. On
> the area map Survex file http://geography.lancs.ac.uk/Matienzo/all.3d
> the sump after the Rub-a-Dub-Dubs starts just under Horse Torugh Pot
> (shown in orange).
>
> Juan
>

[harry long]

Thanks Juan. I wonder whether either of these has anything to do with the resurgence and
"droughting" cave 100 metres above that Santi says the French are doing?
Cheers,
Harry
 

---

To: Matien...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Cueva Molino etc

Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 12:09:05 -0400
From: uzu...@aol.com

[Alasdair Neill]

The Cuenca website apparently should include details of their sites, but when I looked at it last summer it was just "under construction". Some details in an article in the last Cantabrian bulletin.

 

Ali.

[smith_p...@yahoo.es]

Juan and everyone,

I was at the Federation yesterday to collect this year's permit - so
we've got that now. There was a man there, a friend of Jason
Mallinson's, who is in the team exploring Sistema del Alto Tejuelo.
Guess what, they're very interested in knowing where it resurges. It
has two streams, one that is heading straight for the resurgence at
Cubiobramante and a second one further to the north that might also go
to Cubiobramante or might... Obviously, we have to coordinate any
water tracing, and he says they won't be doing any this Easter if we
are testing Valline. For now we've just arranged to keep in touch. He
says he was talking to you a couple of years ago, Juan, and you gave
him information about Aguanaz and the Cobadal test. He's interested in
knowing more about how to use OBAs.
Pete

[Juan Corrin]

"He's interested in knowing more about how to use OBAs." He just needs to Google "matienzo OBA" and the document will appear.

If they want to dye test Alto Tejuelo they'll need to use different agents in each stream. Or just do the one at one time. If the reservoir under "Bustablado" has any credance they will need to put detectors in Cubiobramante, Molino, Comellante and Aguanaz at least. Putting dye or OBA or spores into Tejuelo water may well "contaminate" any reservoir for months / years to come. So this is an argument for doing the downstream Valline test first, with detectors in Comellante, Molino, Aguanaz and Cubiobramante(?). However, we don't know how much OBA we've got - and will probably need much more than we have.
So I suggest that all this needs discussing with Pete's contact and the Tejuelo people, so we all know what each other intends to do and when. It may be best if they go ahead at Easter with a small "local" test in the underground stream that's likely to drain to Cubiobramante using a small amount of agent that's unlikely to be used in the next couple of years.

Comments?

_________________________
<B>Juan Corrin</B>
England: +44 1706 874669
Spain: +34 942 619931
Mobile: +44 7815 745072
Skype: juanpennycorrin

-----Original Message-----
From: smith_p...@yahoo.es
To: Matienzo Caves <Matien...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 10:50
Subject: Re: Cueva Molino etc

Juan and everyone,

I was at the Federation yesterday to collect this year's permit - so
we've got that now. There was a man there, a friend of Jason
Mallinson's, who is in the team exploring Sistema del Alto Tejuelo.
Guess what, they're very interested in knowing where it resurges. It
has two streams, one that is heading straight for the resurgence at
Cubiobramante and a second one further to the north that might also go
to Cubiobramante or might... Obviously, we have to coordinate any
water tracing, and he says they won't be doing any this Easter if we
are testing Valline. For now we've just arranged to keep in touch. He
says he was talking to you a couple of years ago, Juan, and you gave
him information about Aguanaz and the Cobadal test. He's interested in
knowing more about how to use OBAs.
Pete

[harry long]

Agree with you fully Juan about it being best to do the Vallina test before the Alto Tejuelo one/s. It's unlikely that there will be any large scale retention of OBA in a possible enormous phreas 'under' Bustablado for an extended period of time and, anyhow, initial control detectors emplaced prior to putting in the OBA should show if any is still present, altho' it is better to be erring on the side of caution.
 
In your list of resurgences to put detectors at you make no mention of Cave of the Wild Mares which, I think, would be worth covering at the same time as this could, possibly, help us understand a bit more about the Cobodal/Vaca/Aguanaz drainage.
 
As far as them going ahead with a small 'local' test in the passage that's likely to resurge at Cubiobramante is concerned, they may want to use sufficient OBA to be certain of getting a positive result if it does drain there and deciding how much to use could be problematic - i.e. likelihood of them using a lot rather than a little!
 
Harry
 

 

---

To: Matien...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Cueva Molino etc

Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 07:45:25 -0400
From: uzu...@aol.com