The Right PCB House
Talal Itani
I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, nothing fancy.
I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to Sierra Pro
Express, ExpressPCB, and AC Advanced Circuits. Do you think I made the
right choice? Do you have any recommendations? I would like to receive the
board 3-5 days.
T.I.
Hauke D
I've had good experiences with Advanced Circuits (http://www.
4pcb.com/). Make sure to use their free FDM service (http://
www.freedfm.com/), even if you don't end up going with them for
manufacturing.
ExpressPCB is only good for quick-and-dirty stuff. Their advantage is
that they're cheap and their design software is pretty simple to use,
but the big disadvantage is that it locks you in to their software.
Also I've never done 4-layer stuff with them; I believe they're also
kind of limited in that department. They're great for quick-and-dirty
stuff though.
Regards,
-- Hauke D
Tim Wescott
steered me wrong. Nor have they caused problems that I know of for my
one local client that uses them. They're fast, they're accurate, and if
your board comes back with problems it's because you put them there.
I can't speak to any of the others -- they may be even better than PCB
express (although there's not much room for improvement) or they may be
horrid.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
Talal Itani
So, there is PCBexpress, and expressPCB. Two different companies?
"Tim Wescott" <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote in message
news:paydneRCzL9Vv8DV...@web-ster.com...
mpm
> Hi,
>
> I've had good experiences with Advanced Circuits (http://www.
> manufacturing.
>
> ExpressPCB is only good for quick-and-dirty stuff. Their advantage is
> that they're cheap and their design software is pretty simple to use,
> but the big disadvantage is that it locks you in to their software.
> Also I've never done 4-layer stuff with them; I believe they're also
> kind of limited in that department. They're great for quick-and-dirty
> stuff though.
>
> Regards,
> -- Hauke D
>
> On Jun 21, 4:19 pm, "Talal Itani" <tit...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hello,
>
> > I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, nothing fancy.
> > I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to Sierra Pro
> > Express, ExpressPCB, and AC Advanced Circuits. �Do you think I made the
> > right choice? �Do you have any recommendations? �I would like to receive the
> > board 3-5 days.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've used ExpressPCB for small projects before, but always 2-layer
stuff.
I've never had a problem with them, or their boards.
As for being "locked-in" to their software, for an extra $60 (last
time I checked), they will send you the Gerber files. From there, you
can import to many of the other programs avail.
Also, I recall hearing a while ago that a lot of these PCB prototype
houses are all built at the same place anyway. So, while you might
see 10 different company names (i.e., resellers), the boards
themselves all come from the same place. Sorry, I don't remember the
names of the companies involved, and don't know whether ExpressPCB is
one of them.
-mpm
Talal Itani
Can ExpressPCB receive files from other PCB software?
>
> I've had good experiences with Advanced Circuits (http://www.
> 4pcb.com/). Make sure to use their free FDM service
> (http://www.freedfm.com/), even if you don't end up going with them for
> manufacturing.
>
> ExpressPCB is only good for quick-and-dirty stuff. Their advantage is
> that they're cheap and their design software is pretty simple to use,
> but the big disadvantage is that it locks you in to their software.
> Also I've never done 4-layer stuff with them; I believe they're also
> kind of limited in that department. They're great for quick-and-dirty
> stuff though.
>
> Regards,
> -- Hauke D
>
> On Jun 21, 4:19 pm, "Talal Itani" <tit...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hello,
>
> > I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, nothing
> > fancy.
> > I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to Sierra
> > Pro
> > Express, ExpressPCB, and AC Advanced Circuits. ?Do you think I made the
> > right choice? ?Do you have any recommendations? ?I would like to receive
Hauke D
> So, there is PCBexpress, and expressPCB. Two different companies?
Yes.
> Can ExpressPCB receive files from other PCB software?
No. (only netlists from schematic tools)
> As for being "locked-in" to their software, for an extra $60 (last
> time I checked), they will send you the Gerber files. From there, you
> can import to many of the other programs avail.
Hm, didn't know that. Still, it should be noted that ExpressPCB can't
read Gerber files and one can only order from ExpressPCB through their
software, so I'd still consider that being pretty locked in. Plus, if
I wanted to spend a little extra money, I'd just go with something
like EagleCAD and one of the other fab places anyways :) I'd still
recommend ExpressPCB for any simple 2-layer designs where it's not
important for your design to be portable; I've used them several times
myself and it's quick and easy and decent quality. And I'm a big fan
of "keep it simple" interfaces like their software is.
Regards,
-- Hauke D
Tim Wescott
(Top posting fixed)
>
> "Tim Wescott" <t...@seemywebsite.com> wrote in message
> news:paydneRCzL9Vv8DV...@web-ster.com...
>> Talal Itani wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, nothing
>>> fancy. I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to
>>> Sierra Pro Express, ExpressPCB, and AC Advanced Circuits. Do you think I
>>> made the right choice? Do you have any recommendations? I would like to
>>> receive the board 3-5 days.
>>>
>>> T.I.
>> I have only ever used PCB express (NOT express PCB), and they have never
>> steered me wrong. Nor have they caused problems that I know of for my one
>> local client that uses them. They're fast, they're accurate, and if your
>> board comes back with problems it's because you put them there.
>>
>> I can't speak to any of the others -- they may be even better than PCB
>> express (although there's not much room for improvement) or they may be
>> horrid.
>>
>> http://www.pcbexpress.com/.
> So, there is PCBexpress, and expressPCB. Two different companies?
>
>
Tim Wescott
So you have software that will go from a Gerber to a nicely laid out
schematic?
That's impressive.
I use real tools to do my schematic capture and layout, and for no extra
money I go to a regular PCB house to get boards.
(And PCB Express has it's own fab just 12 miles from me, so if I'm in a
_real_ hurry I can pick it up and shave 8-12 hours off of the process).
Joerg
Then if you need to make a little change it'll be another $60?
> Also, I recall hearing a while ago that a lot of these PCB prototype
> houses are all built at the same place anyway. So, while you might
> see 10 different company names (i.e., resellers), the boards
> themselves all come from the same place. Sorry, I don't remember the
> names of the companies involved, and don't know whether ExpressPCB is
> one of them.
>
I have also used 4PCB, quite happy so far. They only messed up once
(unapproved Gerber edits) but made good on that with an additional fast
run, on the house. The nice thing is that I always have a real contact
person there. She really helped us when they defaulted to this dreaded
RoHS process which we absolutely did not want.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Robert Baer
certainly for 3 days.
Besids, transportation will take anywhere from 2 days to 5 days
(total turn-around time).
Are you Russian?
Robert Baer
Absolutely!
Robert Baer
ExpressPCB stuff comes from Mulino OR and at one time i knew the name
of the "parent" company that will do much "fancier" boards.
Robert Baer
They are not set up to do that.
Send a query to their support smail address.
Robert Baer
Well, there are Gerber editors...
Robert Baer
Not much differnce between tin/lead solder on pads and silver plate
*IF* one is not going above (say) 150C.
Tin/lead solder and tin/silver solders act esentially the same, so
what is the beef?
Talal Itani
"Robert Baer" <rober...@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:-PSdnXt4z_WBlsPV...@posted.localnet...
No.
Joerg
Non-RoHS parts on a RoHS PCB usually isn't a good idea.
Joerg
Very frowned upon in industry and (usually) off limits in medical. It's
like printing out a picture, editing it with white-out and scanning it
back in. You typically lose the documentation trail. IOW your original
CAD file no longer matches the product.
Chris_99
Ben Jackson
>
> I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, nothing fancy.
> I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to Sierra Pro
> Express
I've gotten 4-layer from Sierra (no-touch service) and the boards and
the service were good.
If you had more time I'd also consider custompcb (cheap, in Malaysia,
quality is acceptable but not great) and batchpcb (cost effective for
small boards or small runs, good quality, long lead times).
--
Ben Jackson AD7GD
<b...@ben.com>
http://www.ben.com/
Paul E. Schoen
"Talal Itani" <tit...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:V587k.564$IL6.235@trnddc04...
I have had good experiences with www.pcbfabexpress.com, but I have only
done 2 layer boards in small quantities. For low price and moderate
quantities, I have used a company in China: www.pcbcart.com. I received the
boards within 8 days of actually placing the order, and they were quick to
respond to questions by email. The only real problem I had was that I had
specified 2 oz copper, and when I did a voltage drop text on a critical
high current track it was the equivalent of 1 oz. They have promised to
correct that on my next order, which I will be placing soon.
I had to make a completely new design based on my testing of the ones they
did, not because of any fault on their part, and I am fairly confident that
the next order will be OK. I was able to get 108 pieces of 1" x 2" boards,
panelized and scored, for about $140 including FedEx from China. Even
having to scrap the first order, I am still saving several hundred dollars
over almost any other source.
I would rather buy from and support local vendors, but with such a huge
price differential, I can pass some of my savings on to my customers. And I
have a feeling that some of the so-called "local" vendors may actually farm
the jobs to Chinese or East European fab houses, and just operate as
middlemen, which does not do all that much for domestic economy. I can save
100 local customers $3 each, or I can make one local company richer by
$300.
Paul
Robert Baer
Robert Baer
Give at least one good reason...
Joerg
http://www.maxim-ic.com/emmi/faq.cfm
Quote "However, reliability of leaded Maxim Integrated Products parts
are not guaranteed at higher reflow temperature (above 240°C). Some
reference sources show data that define a reduction in solder joint
reliability by as much as 33% less than Eutectic solder joints when lead
and lead-free metallurgies are mixed."
Mark Borgerson
rober...@localnet.com says...
> mpm wrote:
>
> > On Jun 21, 10:53ï¿=3Fam, Hauke D <hau...@zero-g.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>I've had good experiences with Advanced Circuits (http://www.
> >>4pcb.com/). Make sure to use their free FDM service (http://www.freedfm.com/), even if you don't end up going with them for
> >>manufacturing.
> >>
> >>ExpressPCB is only good for quick-and-dirty stuff. Their advantage is
> >>that they're cheap and their design software is pretty simple to use,
> >>but the big disadvantage is that it locks you in to their software.
> >>Also I've never done 4-layer stuff with them; I believe they're also
> >>kind of limited in that department. They're great for quick-and-dirty
> >>stuff though.
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>-- Hauke D
> >>
> >>On Jun 21, 4:19 pm, "Talal Itani" <tit...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hello,
> >>
> >>>I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, nothing fancy.
> >>>I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to Sierra Pro
> >>>right choice? ï¿=3FDo you have any recommendations? ï¿=3FI would like to receive the
> >>>board 3-5 days.
> >>
> >>>T.I.- Hide quoted text -
> >>
> >>- Show quoted text -
> >
> >
> > I've used ExpressPCB for small projects before, but always 2-layer
> > stuff.
> > I've never had a problem with them, or their boards.
> >
> > As for being "locked-in" to their software, for an extra $60 (last
> > time I checked), they will send you the Gerber files. From there, you
> > can import to many of the other programs avail.
> >
> > Also, I recall hearing a while ago that a lot of these PCB prototype
> > houses are all built at the same place anyway. So, while you might
> > see 10 different company names (i.e., resellers), the boards
> > themselves all come from the same place. Sorry, I don't remember the
> > names of the companies involved, and don't know whether ExpressPCB is
> > one of them.
> >
> > -mpm
> ExpressPCB stuff comes from Mulino OR and at one time i knew the name
> of the "parent" company that will do much "fancier" boards.
>
>
Sunstone, which builds boards in Mulino, Oregon. Sunstone gives me good
boards and I live close enough that the free UPS ground shipping gets me
boards the day after shipment. Sunstone also has their own free PCB
suite, PCB123.
http://www.pcb123.com/
I now order all my PCBs from Sunstone, so I'm a biased reporter. I've
been a fan of theirs since their customer service techs helped me
through some problems with an older, low-cost layout suite. They're
still helping me through some problems with bigger 4-layers boards
since I've converted to PADS.
Mark Borgerson
JeffM
>Don't mix up ExpressPCB and PCB Express.
>Sunstone also has their own free PCB suite, PCB123.
Pad2Pad, ExpressPCB, & PCB123 are all essentially the same thing.
They are all lock-in-ware.
Their output is NOT portable between fab houses.
None of them produce Gerbers.
mpm
Jeff - your information is incorrect.
For $60, ExpressPCB will definitely send you a Gerber file.
I know this from first hand experience. (The others mentioned also
might, but I can't say)
I also concur that it is not the best approach if you do enough boards
to justify "better" schematic capture / PCB layout software (i.e., in-
house). But if you want to port the boards to production fabrication
(offshore), you certainly can obtain Gerbers from ExpressPCB.
-mpm
JeffM
>JeffM wrote:
>>Pad2Pad, ExpressPCB, & PCB123 are all essentially the same thing.
>>They are all lock-in-ware.
>>Their output is NOT portable between fab houses.
>>None of them produce Gerbers.
>
>Jeff - your information is incorrect.
>
I assure you that was not necessary.
I repeat: This "free" software does not *PRODUCE* Gerbers.
If you use it, you are LOCKED IN to a single fab house.
What I am saying is that to call itself an ECAD Package,
software should be able to generate Gerbers ON ITS OWN.
What you are describing
meets the classic definition of CRIPPLEWARE.
>For $60, ExpressPCB will definitely send you a Gerber file.
>
I did NOT say there was no way to PURCHASE Gerbers.
...AND PAY *AGAIN* AFTER THE SLIGHTEST CHANGE.
If that's what YOU want, fine.
Full disclosure for the other folks is another thing.
Most people want to know what the cards up the sleeve are.
.
.
...and it appears you STILL haven't read this:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/ffb3958a0de506f9?q=instead-click-on+THAT-*-link+*-Reply-at-the-bottom-*-*-*+DO-NOT+More.Options+blockquoting+other.people's.sigs+weird-looking.posts
Paul E. Schoen
"JeffM" <jef...@email.com> wrote in message
news:ec31dfd9-b52f-4894...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> mpm wrote:
>>JeffM wrote:
>>>Pad2Pad, ExpressPCB, & PCB123 are all essentially the same thing.
>>>They are all lock-in-ware.
>>>Their output is NOT portable between fab houses.
>>>None of them produce Gerbers.
>>
>>Jeff - your information is incorrect.
>>
> Thank you for interpolating my post.
> I assure you that was not necessary.
>
> I repeat: This "free" software does not *PRODUCE* Gerbers.
> If you use it, you are LOCKED IN to a single fab house.
>
> What I am saying is that to call itself an ECAD Package,
> software should be able to generate Gerbers ON ITS OWN.
>
> What you are describing
> meets the classic definition of CRIPPLEWARE.
>
>>For $60, ExpressPCB will definitely send you a Gerber file.
>>
> I did NOT say there was no way to PURCHASE Gerbers.
> ...AND PAY *AGAIN* AFTER THE SLIGHTEST CHANGE.
>
> If that's what YOU want, fine.
> Full disclosure for the other folks is another thing.
> Most people want to know what the cards up the sleeve are.
If the ExpressPCB package was really top-notch, and offered for free, I
could understand them locking you in without Gerbers. But I seem to
remember it was mostly a drafting package that had very limited
capabilities compared to (of course) PADS, but there were other free or
very inexpensive packages that had better capabilities and actually created
Gerbers.
I tried to check pricing from PCBexpress, and I got this:
"Warning: mysql_pconnect(): Can't connect to local MySQL server through
socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock' (2) in
/home/pcbexpress.com/html/products/utls.inc.php on line 25
We're sorry...please try this process again later."
I'd like to compare them to pcbfabexpress. I guess I'll "try again later".
Paul
mpm
> mpm wrote:
> >JeffM wrote:
> >>Pad2Pad, ExpressPCB, & PCB123 are all essentially the same thing.
> >>They are all lock-in-ware.
> >>Their output is NOT portable between fab houses.
> >>None of them produce Gerbers.
>
> >Jeff - your information is incorrect.
>
> Thank you for interpolating my post.
> I assure you that was not necessary.
>
> I repeat: �This "free" software does not *PRODUCE* Gerbers.
> If you use it, you are LOCKED IN to a single fab house.
>
> What I am saying is that to call itself an ECAD Package,
> software should be able to generate Gerbers ON ITS OWN.
>
> What you are describing
> meets the classic definition of CRIPPLEWARE.
>
> >For $60, ExpressPCB will definitely send you a Gerber file.
>
> I did NOT say there was no way to PURCHASE Gerbers.
> ...AND PAY *AGAIN* AFTER THE SLIGHTEST CHANGE.
>
> If that's what YOU want, fine.
> Full disclosure for the other folks is another thing.
> Most people want to know what the cards up the sleeve are.
> .
> .
Jeff - What is your problem?
You gave out bad info. I corrected it. Get over it.
I personally used ExpressPCB, got the boards exactly the way I wanted
them, then turned around and got the Gerbers from ExpressPCB (for an
additional $60), and then proceeded to shop the high-volume production
boards overseas. (Using those same Gerbers).
So, explain how I was "locked-in". ?????
I am not so interested in correcting your statements (interpolating or
whatever), nor am I that interested in the nuance argument as to
whether the ExpressPCB directly produces a Gerber output (which I
never claimed, but you invented).
My only purpose here was to correct the post, so that other's could
rely on the right information as they make their choices. I also did
not opine on whether the ExpressPCB route was any better or worse, or
less expensive than having your own high(er)-end program in house,
such as Orcad or whatever.
The bottom line is ExpressPCB can indeed (eventually) result in a
Gerber file that you can port between fabricators. This statement is
in direct contravention to your earler remark that:
And I quote:
> >>They are all lock-in-ware.
> >>Their output is NOT portable between fab houses.
> >>None of them produce Gerbers.
Have a nice day.
-mpm
Roger_the_Dodger
There is plenty of free stuff and paid for packages.
There is often something on ebay for a few pounds.
Joel Koltner
news:7a629a7a-e1d6-40e7...@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> There is often something on ebay for a few pounds.
Nothing that's at the same level of quality/utility as, e.g., Altium,
Pulsonix, PADS, or even Eagle is "a few pounds."
JeffM
>>There is often something on ebay for a few pounds.
>>
>Nothing that's at the same level of quality/utility as, e.g., Altium,
>Pulsonix, PADS, or even Eagle is "a few pounds."
I thought I recognized that rap. Yup, I called it.
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?enc_author=_U-3sxwAAACljgN-V29TdGsdWVTrgV-GXiYp9-orUyGBN00G0sVMjw&scoring=d
Heee's baaack. (Marra, aka cadman, aka Nigel Wright, aka...)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.cad/browse_frm/thread/7eb8dfaa19ed5709/a74114ef2d864b4a?q=his-ethics+zzz+Nigel.Wright+ugly.schematics+KNOW-YOUR-VENDOR+god.awful
Michael A. Terrell
A few pounds of what?
--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html
If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm
Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming'
sheep.
Joel Koltner
> I thought I recognized that rap. Yup, I called it.
> http://groups.google.com/groups/search?enc_author=_U-3sxwAAACljgN-V29TdGsdWVTrgV-GXiYp9-orUyGBN00G0sVMjw&scoring=d
> Heee's baaack. (Marra, aka cadman, aka Nigel Wright, aka...)
Sheesh. What a strange man; he seems intelligent enough yet completely unable
or unwilling to conduct himself in a reasonably respectable manner...
mh...@hvc.rr.com
Actually both ExpressPCB and PCBexpress both get shipped from Mulino,
Oregon.
ExpressPCB came up with the idea of freeware PCB layout tools and
charging for board manufacturing. They contracted with ECD (which
spunoff SunStone Circuits sometime in the late 90s) to manufacture
boards for them. ECD (or maybe SunStone) liked the idea and created
PCBexpress to tap into the market. PCBexpress created PCB123 layout
software to compete with ExpressPCB.
Regardless of how you design your boards, with ExpressPCB, PCB123, or
Eagle and then ship your gerber files to PCBexpress, the boards get
made at a PCB plant in Mulino.
The board plant used to make pretty good boards years ago when I
worked as an electronics designer for ECD. After I left, I've used
ExpressPCB to create dozens of prototypes that were made there. They
were all pretty good quality.
Mark
Mark Borgerson
@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, mh...@hvc.rr.com says...
> >
> > >>Hi,
> >
> > >>I've had good experiences with Advanced Circuits (http://www.
> > >>4pcb.com/). Make sure to use their free FDM service (http://www.freedfm.com/), even if you don't end up going with them for
> > >>manufacturing.
> >
> > >>ExpressPCB is only good for quick-and-dirty stuff. Their advantage is
> > >>that they're cheap and their design software is pretty simple to use,
> > >>but the big disadvantage is that it locks you in to their software.
> > >>Also I've never done 4-layer stuff with them; I believe they're also
> > >>kind of limited in that department. They're great for quick-and-dirty
> > >>stuff though.
> >
> > >>Regards,
> > >>-- Hauke D
> >
> > >>On Jun 21, 4:19 pm, "Talal Itani" <tit...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> > >>>Hello,
> >
> > >>>I need to have a 4-layer board made, a prototype, 2 boards, nothing fancy.
> > >>>I did some research in this newsgroup and I narrowed it down to Sierra Pro
I've had excellent results with them over the last 6-8 years. They
must be getting more confident in their process control, as the
quickturn trace and space used to be 8mil/8mil. Now it's down
to 6mil/6mil. On full-service boards they will go to 5mil/5mil.
The 6mil level is good enough for any of the boards I do.
I've had upwards of 1000 boards, from perhaps a dozen designs,
with no problems other than those I caused. My last production
problem was a single whisker-short on a board about 5 years ago.
I've never seen that again, so I suppose it was a one-time under
etch.
Mark Borgerson
rickman
> In article <tYCdnXlXl47nkMPVnZ2dnUVZ_sudn...@posted.localnet>,
> robertb...@localnet.com says...
>
> Don't mix up ExpressPCB and PCB Express. The latter is a division of
> Sunstone, which builds boards in Mulino, Oregon. Sunstone gives me good
> boards and I live close enough that the free UPS ground shipping gets me
> boards the day after shipment. Sunstone also has their own free PCB
> suite, PCB123.
> http://www.pcb123.com/
>
> I now order all my PCBs from Sunstone, so I'm a biased reporter. I've
> been a fan of theirs since their customer service techs helped me
> through some problems with an older, low-cost layout suite. They're
> still helping me through some problems with bigger 4-layers boards
> since I've converted to PADS.
>
> Mark Borgerson
You must get much better service than I did. I had Sunstone build two
boards for me. The first was the production board which was ordered
in six panels of 22 each. They built seven panels to cover any losses
and still could only deliver 116 boards. That's a loss rate of 25%!
I also asked them to build the test fixture for this board. By the
time the test fixture was away to them it had turned into the long
pole in the tent schedule-wise. I gave them my info and they accepted
the order. A week later when I was expecting the order to be
delivered, I contacted them for a tracking number. I was told that
the order had been put on hold waiting for a credit card number and
when the number didn't come it was ***canceled***. It seems that they
lost the CC number and NO ONE contacted me about it! So then I had to
wait ***ANOTHER*** week. Oddly enough, they lost my CC number a
second time which again bit me in the butt... I got the test fixture
panels ok, but I still needed another panel of the production board.
They had apologized for the shortage and offered me the choice of
deducting the shortage from my bill or building another panel. I
waited until testing of the protos was complete and asked for the
replacement panel to make up the shortage which was needed to complete
the initial production build. They accepted that order, but they
spent an extra day checking the files I had to resend to them and it
went into production a day late. Of course they were not willing to
try to speed up the fabrication to make up for it. Finally they were
supposed to deliver last week on Thursday directly to the assembly
house. I contacted Sunstone on Friday to get a tracking number to see
if the panel had made it ok only to find out that they had built the
boards, but would not ship them because I was now on credit hold!!! I
had received an invoice for the test fixture a week earlier and sent
off a check which was expected on that Friday. They couldn't tell me
if the check had been received or not and they couldn't tell me if the
boards would ship or not.
I can honestly say that I have ***never*** worked with a more
incompetent group of people. Every time I contacted them I had to
start over explaining the situation. The different departments don't
seem to talk to each other, but rather expect their internal tracking
system to keep everyone informed. But I found over and over again
that no one uses the system properly. They lost my credit card
number, not once, but twice. That has got to make you wonder where it
went! But the really bad part of all this was the way that everything
that happened was as much a surprise to the various contacts there as
it was to me. They did not once inform me of anything that was
happening and when I asked it was like pulling teeth to get accurate
info from them.
I will never use Sunstone again and I would not let anyone I liked
use them either!
Rick
rickman
Why screw with crippleware when you can get totally free layout
programs that are as good as commercial ones? FreePCB is an excellent
program that costs nothing and has better support through the web site
forum and Yahoo group than most commercial packages have if you pay
for support!
I haven't found the perfect schematic program, but for layout, I am
very happy with FreePCB.
Rick
Mark Borgerson
@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, gnu...@gmail.com says...
to be tested?
> Finally they were
> supposed to deliver last week on Thursday directly to the assembly
> house. I contacted Sunstone on Friday to get a tracking number to see
> if the panel had made it ok only to find out that they had built the
> boards, but would not ship them because I was now on credit hold!!! I
> had received an invoice for the test fixture a week earlier and sent
> off a check which was expected on that Friday. They couldn't tell me
> if the check had been received or not and they couldn't tell me if the
> boards would ship or not.
>
> I can honestly say that I have ***never*** worked with a more
> incompetent group of people. Every time I contacted them I had to
> start over explaining the situation. The different departments don't
> seem to talk to each other, but rather expect their internal tracking
> system to keep everyone informed. But I found over and over again
> that no one uses the system properly. They lost my credit card
> number, not once, but twice. That has got to make you wonder where it
> went! But the really bad part of all this was the way that everything
> that happened was as much a surprise to the various contacts there as
> it was to me. They did not once inform me of anything that was
> happening and when I asked it was like pulling teeth to get accurate
> info from them.
>
> I will never use Sunstone again and I would not let anyone I liked
> use them either!
Perhaps my experience has been better because I order my boards
through their web site---which has never forgotten or misplaced
my credit card number. I've never confused the payment issue
by sending them a paper check. ;-)
Mark Borgerson
rickman
> In article <e9a7b4f4-fd70-44c1-aa47-72686bab2fd7
> @l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, gnu...@gmail.com says...
>
>
> > deducting the shortage from my bill or building another panel. I
> > waited until testing of the protos was complete and asked for the
> > replacement panel to make up the shortage which was needed to complete
> > the initial production build. They accepted that order, but they
> > spent an extra day checking the files I had to resend to them and it
> > went into production a day late. Of course they were not willing to
> > try to speed up the fabrication to make up for it.
>
> Was that delay longer than the time you waited for the prototypes
> to be tested?
I don't understand the question.
Sure, ordering on the web site is a great idea when it works. I tried
to place the test fixture order online three times and each time the
web site crapped out.
Don't even try to make this look like my fault. If they can't hold
onto a credit card number long enough to bill it, I am sure not going
to give them any more credit data. The real problem was the fact that
they can't communicate either internally or externally. Every time I
called, I had to start over with a new person explaining what I was
doing and who I had spoken to. When something went wrong, they didn't
communicate internally and no one ever told me about the issues. I
guess if your order goes well, then you don't see the result of their
poor communications. But if there is a snag, then it all falls
apart.
Anyone who uses Sunstone for professional work is taking a chance with
their schedule. I would compare it to those kids who thought it was
perfectly safe to tease the tiger in the zoo. In 99.9% of the zoos
that would be safe. But they happened to do it in the one zoo where
the tiger didn't know he couldn't jump a 14 foot wall! When it went
bad, it went ***really bad***.
Rick
Martin Davey
package I have used.
Pretty much Linux based though...
"Roger_the_Dodger" <cresswe...@talktalk.net> wrote in message
news:7a629a7a-e1d6-40e7...@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
xxx
> Roger_the_Codger wrote:
>>
>> I would have just bought my own software.
>>
>> There is plenty of free stuff and paid for packages.
>>
>> There is often something on ebay for a few pounds.
>
>
>
> A few pounds of what?
>
>
Sterling grade refined purified silver, M8.
Michael A. Terrell
Isn't that kind of hard to mail?