will subaru ever get back the trust of the early 90's
bj
failure of the 96-99 2.5l DOHC? let alone the later 2.5 SOHC with
their head gasket failures? Will they ever own up to the design flaw in
the engine which is not a gasket problem but a basic design problem
allowing hotspots from air bubbles in the coolant..
it would have been a cheap fix to drill and tap the coolant crossover
pipe to allow the air to escape....but subaru denial is the cheaper
fix...
if you do change your coolant...take care to remove the air, burp the
system and save your heads...and do a google search for "subaru head
gasket failures"
my 2 cents
Carl 1 Lucky Texan
a Subaru immune from just about any type failure that could affect
another make.
Also, the HG failures are at the bottom of the cylinder. Not at the top
where you'd expect a bubble to be. Though it is tricky to burp Soob
engines, there are Toyota engines that require filling through a heater
hose to remove the air pockets.
Carl
--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
MN
"Carl 1 Lucky Texan" <alck...@swbell.not> wrote in message
news:BLeCe.514$Q7....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
> HG (or any other failure you can name) are not unique to Subaru. Nor is a
> Subaru immune from just about any type failure that could affect another
> make.
>
> Also, the HG failures are at the bottom of the cylinder. Not at the top
> where you'd expect a bubble to be. Though it is tricky to burp Soob
> engines, there are Toyota engines that require filling through a heater
> hose to remove the air pockets.
>
> Carl
Because X may not be the only idiot in Texas, does that excuse his
stupidity?
This seems to be the logic of your argument, Carl.
With this issue there is reason for distrust of Subaru to develop, and
I think some degree of distrust is already out there. The problem seems
to be even more serious as the Subaru 2.5L engine is the main powerplant
for the make. I know I would be very hesitant to buy another Subie, today,
no matter what engine.
Will subaru ever get back the trust of the early 90's?
I doubt it, and if they do its going to be a lenghty process because the
competition is
fierce, and getting fiercer. The new product Tribeca will hepl them but
they need to shore
up their main product before branching out. They want get far with big
holes in their
defences, so to speak.
MN
bj
from the bottom, the DOHC...and a cheap additive fix which lasts 'til
the 100,000 warranty ois over.. ...96-99 has an internal
leak....resulting in overheating, then total failure...however you want
to cut it, that engine, although a very good engine has a serious flaw
which subaru won't own up to....an it takes more then just filling the
top radiator hose....to get the air out takes numerous attempts or a
swirl tank which is what pilots use when using that engine in a
plane....a yank from mn
bj
http://scott.mcgerik.com/2004/02/18/subaru-outback-head-gasket-leak/
imagine how many thousands of people worldwide have to deal with this
problem....
Rick Courtright
> their head gasket failures? Will they ever own up to the design flaw in
> the engine which is not a gasket problem but a basic design problem
> allowing hotspots from air bubbles in the coolant..
> my 2 cents
Hi,
I know I'm not going to change your mind, but I think your criticism is
worth about the 2 cents you ascribed to it. HG failures seem to be a
pretty common item today, and make seems to have little to do with it.
Toyota, Honda, Ford and GM products have all caused grief to people I've
known (I'm told by radiator guys recent Toyotas and Fords both come from
the factory with a "sealer" like Subie's recent "conditioner" to help
forestall HG problems, but it comes with its own side effects: failure
to remove it with a coolant change in the first year or so has been
known to cause radiator clogging in Toyotas, failure to replace it at
coolant changes has led to HG problems in Fords. Nobody's perfect.) A
friend who owns an automotive machine shop says most makes today
suffer--he claims it's because of emissions requirements: engineers have
to run things "too hot" to get a clean enough burn, which leads to
having to "hollow out" the heads to carry more coolant, but then the
lack of metal causes warpage and leaks. The only recent HG failure I've
had personally was on a Toyota 22-R engine, arguably one of their most
bulletproof 4 cyls. When it started overheating (at only 69k miles!), my
friend drew me a rough picture on a scrap of paper where to look for a
blown gasket. When I pulled the head, the site of the failure couldn't
have been closer to where he showed me if he'd have drawn a proper
blueprint! Currently, I have a V-6 Camry, and stories of blown HGs on
them don't lack, either, though (knocking on wood) mine's been ok. Yet
we don't hear much criticism of Toyota's reliability, do we?
Then we get to "burping" the engines... if you think a Subie's fun, you
should have tried to get the air out of that 22-R Toyota! It would take
AT LEAST a week of adding coolant to the overflow tank every day despite
using all the "tricks" to fill the system properly at each change. And
the V-6 Toyota? The coolant was always changed by the dealer before I
got the car. I changed it last time, and carefully measured what I took
out, since Toyota's book capacity specs have seldom matched my real life
experience. When I put that amount back in, it wasn't near full! I put
over a quart MORE in the engine than what I took out right then, and
then a half pint or more in the next few days. Tell me there weren't
some hot spots in THAT system? And Toyota was even thoughtful enough to
put a second radiator cap in a crossover area on the engine. I won't
even waste time recounting tales from friends and family that are
similar. In contrast, my Subie's pretty straightforward with minimal
"topping off" required in the first few days after a coolant change.
So criticize Subie if you wish, but I've got enough of a Missouri
heritage you're gonna have to "show me" why Subie's any worse off than
the others before I'll take much stock in the criticism!
Rick
Clifford Heath
> ...96-99 has an internal
> leak....resulting in overheating, then total failure...however you want
> to cut it, that engine, although a very good engine has a serious flaw
> which subaru won't own up to....an it takes more then just filling the
> top radiator hose....to get the air out takes numerous attempts or a
> swirl tank which is what pilots use when using that engine in a
> plane....a yank from mn
Could you describe how to properly burp this engine?
Ours is currently being rebuilt with the upgraded HG,
is it possible to fit a bleeder pipe to help with burping?
Where does it need to be fitted?
bj
gasket customers ...all with the identical problem...that should say
something....
here also is a link from an aircraft mechanic ..
.scroll down to air in coolant and he describes the problem and fix
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/engine.htm
cliff, i remember seeing a site where a guy took about three days to
fill his system.....
bj
a site for toyota ford or yugo for that matter, that has so many
dissatisfied customers screaming about one problem ..head gasket
failure...
you must work for subaru
CompUser
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, bjm...@msn.com
says...
> ....an it takes more then just filling the
> top radiator hose....to get the air out takes numerous attempts or a
> swirl tank which is what pilots use when using that engine in a
> plane....a yank from mn
Ahah!
Hold it right there---don't go anywhere!
"Swirl tank", "swirl pot"---what the heck
are they?!?! Details, please.
bj
air in coolant
lets hope this one opens
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
CompUser
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, bjm...@msn.com
says...
> well Rick...that link i left you has almost 200 unsatisfied subaru head
> gasket customers ...all with the identical problem...that should say
> something....
>
> here also is a link from an aircraft mechanic ..
>
> .scroll down to air in coolant and he describes the problem and fix
>
> http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/engine.htm
>
The link needs "html" to work.
According to this guy you cite, Subaru has made
changes in response to the problem:
"So trapped air causes head warp, which causes
air to enter the cooling system. It was pretty
amusing that at the same time I discovered this
entrained air sensitivity in the 2.5 engine, so
too did the auto dealers. Head warp caused by
customers changing their coolant is now the
number one warranty item with this engine. All
caused by an engine block that was not plumbed to
dynamically remove air from the high point.
Subaru has since changed their cooling system
design. "
bj
changes in response to the problem:
it would be nice for subaru to own up to it and tell the rest of
us......my forester cost 25 grand.....like i said... a recall for a
drill and tap and swirl tank would have been an hour fix.it has cost a
lot of these people $1500-2000 and its still not fixed...
bj
also the head gasket problem..
http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-28600.html
Carl 1 Lucky Texan
present. So, once, did Totota, and datsun(my daughter's presently has a
$4 part that needs 16-19 hours to replace - oil seal between timing
chain housing and block - she is the Exxon Valdez of Tarrant County).
And Honda? Actually, even though I had a Honda eat cyl. number 2 when
the rocker carrier rotated and oil starved the followers, I bought a
second one. It gave me good service. Ya see, this Texan understands
anecdotal stories and anomalies. Doesn't mean BJ shouldn't be upset. I
would be too. After all, even if something has a 1% chance of happening,
when it happens to YOU, you're experiencing it 100% of the time.
I feel your pain. I guess, I really just don't care. A line from a song
popular in TEXAS goes; 'It's your misfortune and none of my own'.
Carl
bj
i don't have anything to add and i could care less about all the smucks
who have this problem but since i have nothing else to do i might
write sumptin!
you gave us bush...thanks for nuthin'
Rick Courtright
>
> well Rick...that link i left you has almost 200 unsatisfied subaru head
> gasket customers ...all with the identical problem...that should say
> something....
It tells me someone collected some names... approx 1/10 of 1% of one
year's sales figures, and that's IF they all had the same year car! If a
manufacturer of any product has 99.9% of his production free of a
particular problem or defect, I can see how he might not put all his
efforts into fixing what's really a non-existent problem from HIS
standpoint. Now, as someone else said, if YOUR vehicle is one of the
defective ones, it's a whole different story. To YOU! But to the mfr
it's a numbers game and somebody's gonna lose. "Sorry it was you," they
say. And they move on... be glad you weren't burned up in a Pinto!
Thanks for trying with that link, but if one reads the fellow's blog,
his story's so full of holes I'd hardly consider him credible. $40 for a
radiator hose clamp? They (Subaru) put the cooling system conditioner in
the oil? Come on, now, you've gotta do better than that!
Rick
MN
"Carl 1 Lucky Texan" <alck...@swbell.not> wrote in message
news:XHiCe.2580$M_7....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
> I feel your pain. I guess, I really just don't care. A line from a song
> popular in TEXAS goes; 'It's your misfortune and none of my own'.
Yup, we've all heard a lot of that recently. I guess we should
nominate you Carl for President of alt.autos.subaru :)))
Now back to the issue, I think there is a lot of fluctuaction
and "regression to the mean" in quality of car manufacture.
By this I mean brands that have built a reputation can afford
some slack later on, and manufacturers who got sloppy
if they want to stay in business they must improve their products.
So perhaps the best bet is to buy a brand that has had
some problems in recent past and hopefully is in the
improvement cycle, and avoid those basking in recent glory
cause they may be in the desceding phase of the cycle.
Recently this would be avoid Subaru, buy say Hyundai.
Tomorrow, or even today it may be the opposite. Who knows
how long a described cycle lasts.
MN
Edward Hayes
without any problems. I park the car with the engine end up or at
least level and unscrew the radiator drain cock. I then refill
engine/radiator with distilled water and with the radiator cap off I
run the engine till the stat opens adding water to keep it full. I run
the engine at 2000 rpm for about 5 minutes. I redrain the radiator via
the petcock. I add a 50/50 mix of coolant until full and again run the
engine till hot with the cap off, add coolant as needed. I run the
engine for another 5 minutes at 2000 rpm and shut down. When the
engine is cool I top up the radiator and coolant overflow tank. I
clean the cap and where the cap seals on the radiator and I'm done.
Understanding why you are doing the sequence for a proper coolant
change and the time required to do a proper job IS important. Ed
"Rick Courtright" <rcour...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:42D9F5B9...@iname.com...
bj
vehicle...a lot of people have bought it for it's longevity..i hope its
there.
Thanks ed for the how to....it may make people think the local fast
lube may not be the place to change coolant
Carl 1 Lucky Texan
Dude, get with those other 200 folks and hire yourself a shyster or shut
up your whining.
"get along little dogie"
carl
bj wrote:
--
Rick Courtright
> Thanks ed for the how to....it may make people think the local fast
> lube may not be the place to change coolant
Hmmmm...
Ed's experience changing coolant mirrors mine. You've gotta be careful
AND know what you're doing and why you're doing it in a particular
order. And it takes TIME to do it right. So while the bubbles are coming
to the top, let's think about something with having the quickie lube
place do the job:
People with lots of education and years of experience design cars.
People with years of experience building a certain make put them
together. The dealer service departments USUALLY require a fair amount
of education, both initial and continuing, of the people working on
those cars. New things are learned along the way and TSBs are sent out.
Service procedures are developed and/or modified. This all costs money.
And it's STILL not a perfect system.
So Joe Carowner figures he'll save a buck or two by taking his car to
the local quickie lube where some 17 yr old high school dropout type who
probably can't even spell "TSB" let alone has read one, has 10 minutes
to change everything in the car for $19.95 or whatever, while the
"manager" under pressure from above tries to sell JC on all kinds of
other "services" to keep the store's sales figures up and growing. And
in all this haste JC's car gets screwed up... I think we've all heard
enough quickie lube horror stories to fill their own NG.
Should we blame the manufacturer? I wonder how many of the "damaged"
cars were the result of dealer servicing vs quickie lube vs DIY types?
That might tell a REAL story!
Rick
lkreh
customer satisfaction and quality has only gone up since the 1990s.
You're entitled to an opinion, but it's so focused on a single problem
(head gasket) that you're not seeing the bigger picture of vast overall
improvements to date.
My two duckets,
LK
Mickey
is going to be upset especially if it's on their dime. BTDT!
Will have to say the the Subaru design leads to these kinds of
problems. Flat engine with coolant exit between front and back cyl
(if engine not level there is bigger chance of air entrapment when
replacing the coolant) and very low mounted radiator compared to
engine position. All these things help contribute to trapped air.
For many if not most the Subaru is their only experience with this
design and thus not making them aware of potential for entrapped air
when changing coolant.
Subaru could do themselves and their customers a service if they would
stress this to a greater extent than they do. Not every owner takes
their car back to the dealer for this kind of simple service.
In some areas where Subaru's are not popular even so called
professionals may not have the needed knowledge to purge the cooling
system correctly. Ran into this myself some months back while on a
trip and had cooling problems. Radiator plugged from coolant
conditioner. Radiator shop close to where I was at the time had never
worked on a Subaru before and had no knowledge. I pulled the radiator
myself, let them do their thing and I reinstalled, filled the cooling
system and purged according to the manual. If left to the shop,
overheating was just a few miles away.
Mickey
bj
easy fix by subaru.....agree the owners manual doesn't go into any
detail on changing coolant....a $ 2000 oversight for some
rick, show me any other site about any other make and head gasket
failure...the problems you see on that site are a fraction of those
experienced.
Do you really believe the any but a small fraction of the owners with
HGFailure found that site and took the time to post? Hardly.
Ikreh,...better check the years 96-2000...consumer reports and others
question the engine
Carl the cowboy....texas..a whole lot of nuthin'
Rick Courtright
> rick, show me any other site about any other make and head gasket
> failure...the problems you see on that site are a fraction of those
BJ,
As I alluded to in my first reply to you, it's clear your mind's made up
and trying to confuse you with facts is a waste of time, so you'll
pardon me if I don't parry with you further in the search for continued
entertainment.
Rick
MN
Before quickly brushing aside the guy's valid but maybe slightly
exaggerated concerns what about answering his question whether
you work for Subaru?
MN
Patrick
system after flushing the cooling system or replacing the radiator. I
always buy a haynes manual when buying a new car and
evaluate the skills tools and potential problem before starting a job.
Save a lot of $$$$
My 2 cents
Pat
"MN" <M...@sbcglobal.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
bEACe.159$NU2...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Rick Courtright
> what about answering his question whether you work for Subaru?
Sorry, no such question's shown up on my newsreader, but if it had, NO,
I don't work for Subaru (or any other car company.)
Rick
hippo
Well, I just put googled 'n' head gasket failure and changed 'n' half a
dozen times. Here's a sample out of what were consistently long forum,
complaint and advocacy returns.
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=101&did=565
http://groups.msn.com/ToyotaOwnersUniteforResolution/headgaskets.msnw
So yes, Subis have had a problem with hgs, but so have most other
manufacturers over the last couple of decades - whether running 4, 6 or 8
cyls; sohc, dohc, or pushrods; straight, V, or flat configuration and
engines ranging from sub 1L to over 5L. I'm happy with this one and my
last one. The OB 2.5 isn't perfect, uses more petrol than its mainstream
competition and has higher than average routine service bills - although
not much at all outside those service intervals - but it inspires
confidence and is a delight to drive well over 99% of the time here in
Aus, over a huge range of road surfaces and conditions; so I'll put up
with a few negatives. Cheers
CompUser
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, bjm...@msn.com
says...
> mickey, finally someone making sense...a swirl tank would have been an
> easy fix by subaru.....agree the owners manual doesn't go into any
> detail on changing coolant....a $ 2000 oversight for some
>
From the vague descriptions, sounds like this is
exactly what I have on my 2.0L...pressurized
tank,higher than rest of the system...thanks!
lkreh
others
question the engine >>
I have. Me thinks you've missed the point. -LK
Danny Russell
>when they had the great 2.2 engine?...will they ever own up to the
>failure of the 96-99 2.5l DOHC? let alone the later 2.5 SOHC with
>their head gasket failures? Will they ever own up to the design flaw in
>the engine which is not a gasket problem but a basic design problem
>allowing hotspots from air bubbles in the coolant..
>
>it would have been a cheap fix to drill and tap the coolant crossover
>pipe to allow the air to escape....but subaru denial is the cheaper
>fix...
>
>if you do change your coolant...take care to remove the air, burp the
>system and save your heads...and do a google search for "subaru head
>gasket failures"
SOA has finally issued a TSB for the rattling heat shields ...coat hanger. They aren't actually
admitting that the shields rattle, but the mechanics are instructed to install the coat hanger on
cars that have come in for the Bar's Leak head gasket fix.
Rumor has it that SOA has recently purchased some 19,000 rolls of duct tape in bulk. Not sure what
they have planned for that, but I'm certain that whatever it is, it'll be a refreshing advancement
in automotive service technology. It's clear that GM's involvement has been a good thing (initially
there were concerns). -Danny
CompUser
> SOA has finally issued a TSB for the rattling heat shields ...coat hanger. They aren't actually
> admitting that the shields rattle, but the mechanics are instructed to install the coat hanger on
> cars that have come in for the Bar's Leak head gasket fix.
>
> Rumor has it that SOA has recently purchased some 19,000 rolls of duct tape in bulk. Not sure what
> they have planned for that, but I'm certain that whatever it is, it'll be a refreshing advancement
> in automotive service technology. It's clear that GM's involvement has been a good thing (initially
> there were concerns).
Should we assume the cynicsm meter pegged on
that one? :-P
...gee, when will we see Subaru "Employee
Discount" pricing?
Danny Russell
Mostly. Uhh oh, this just in... "Exciting changes are due!" "SOA to become SOL in '06."
>...gee, when will we see Subaru "Employee
>Discount" pricing?
I bet a dime to a donut it's the minute that Subaru figures out that $26k SAAB 9/2 Aero's are
hitting street for less money than $24k WRX's. -Danny
Clifford Heath
> ...a swirl tank would have been an easy fix by subaru
The aircraft site said the problem was fixed by drilling and tapping
a small tube into the coolant tube above the engine, and connecting
that to the coolant reservoir.
Would this fix the problem, or is a swirl pot needed?
Is there a reservoir, or just an overflow bottle, in these cars?
Alternatively, could the tube be simply fitted with a tap to allow
bleeding?
I'm just trying to work out what to as the repair shop to do to our
engine while it's out of the car... in addition to valve guides, head
machining, gasket, clutch... :-(.
Clifford Heath.
bj
ever your rad cap is set at......connecting it to your reservoir
wouldn't maintain pressure
my guess is a bleed screw may not do it since it may take a while for
the air to get out...the swirl pot (the highest point of the system) is
pressure tight but has enough size to it to catch the air
you may be able to email the guy via his web page
Clifford Heath
> cliff, i think a swirl take would maintain your radiator pressure..what
> ever your rad cap is set at......connecting it to your reservoir
> wouldn't maintain pressure
Agree.
> my guess is a bleed screw may not do it since it may take a while for
> the air to get out...the swirl pot (the highest point of the system) is
> pressure tight but has enough size to it to catch the air
To catch how much air? Do they have a valve to let it out as well?
A colleague at work had a Commodore (Australian GM V6) with exactly
the same design fault - except it had a bleeder. He used a tall
funnel taped into the radiator to fill it, with the bleeder open,
running until the stat opens up and topping until the bleeder
stopped burping air.
I think that's the minimum I will do with our Suby.
bj
the swirl pot.....i see the aircraft guy has an email address....might
drop him a line..
Clifford Heath
> the aircraft site said...i see the aircraft guy has an email address....might
> drop him a line..
He just responded to my email. His radiator fill cap is the highest
thing in his cooling system, so he runs a tube from the crossover
pipe to extract air from there. The air stops under the cap, using
the top of the rad like a swirl pot. No bleed valve needed.
In the car, you need to run the tube either to a pressurised coolant
reservoir above the engine (where the air will be trapped), or to a
bleed valve.
Clifford Heath.
Carl 1 Lucky Texan
than the rad? engine?
Carl
Clifford Heath wrote:
--