it would have been a cheap fix to drill and tap the coolant crossover
pipe to allow the air to escape....but subaru denial is the cheaper
fix...
if you do change your coolant...take care to remove the air, burp the
system and save your heads...and do a google search for "subaru head
gasket failures"
my 2 cents
Also, the HG failures are at the bottom of the cylinder. Not at the top
where you'd expect a bubble to be. Though it is tricky to burp Soob
engines, there are Toyota engines that require filling through a heater
hose to remove the air pockets.
Carl
--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
Because X may not be the only idiot in Texas, does that excuse his
stupidity?
This seems to be the logic of your argument, Carl.
With this issue there is reason for distrust of Subaru to develop, and
I think some degree of distrust is already out there. The problem seems
to be even more serious as the Subaru 2.5L engine is the main powerplant
for the make. I know I would be very hesitant to buy another Subie, today,
no matter what engine.
Will subaru ever get back the trust of the early 90's?
I doubt it, and if they do its going to be a lenghty process because the
competition is
fierce, and getting fiercer. The new product Tribeca will hepl them but
they need to shore
up their main product before branching out. They want get far with big
holes in their
defences, so to speak.
MN
http://scott.mcgerik.com/2004/02/18/subaru-outback-head-gasket-leak/
imagine how many thousands of people worldwide have to deal with this
problem....
> their head gasket failures? Will they ever own up to the design flaw in
> the engine which is not a gasket problem but a basic design problem
> allowing hotspots from air bubbles in the coolant..
> my 2 cents
Hi,
I know I'm not going to change your mind, but I think your criticism is
worth about the 2 cents you ascribed to it. HG failures seem to be a
pretty common item today, and make seems to have little to do with it.
Toyota, Honda, Ford and GM products have all caused grief to people I've
known (I'm told by radiator guys recent Toyotas and Fords both come from
the factory with a "sealer" like Subie's recent "conditioner" to help
forestall HG problems, but it comes with its own side effects: failure
to remove it with a coolant change in the first year or so has been
known to cause radiator clogging in Toyotas, failure to replace it at
coolant changes has led to HG problems in Fords. Nobody's perfect.) A
friend who owns an automotive machine shop says most makes today
suffer--he claims it's because of emissions requirements: engineers have
to run things "too hot" to get a clean enough burn, which leads to
having to "hollow out" the heads to carry more coolant, but then the
lack of metal causes warpage and leaks. The only recent HG failure I've
had personally was on a Toyota 22-R engine, arguably one of their most
bulletproof 4 cyls. When it started overheating (at only 69k miles!), my
friend drew me a rough picture on a scrap of paper where to look for a
blown gasket. When I pulled the head, the site of the failure couldn't
have been closer to where he showed me if he'd have drawn a proper
blueprint! Currently, I have a V-6 Camry, and stories of blown HGs on
them don't lack, either, though (knocking on wood) mine's been ok. Yet
we don't hear much criticism of Toyota's reliability, do we?
Then we get to "burping" the engines... if you think a Subie's fun, you
should have tried to get the air out of that 22-R Toyota! It would take
AT LEAST a week of adding coolant to the overflow tank every day despite
using all the "tricks" to fill the system properly at each change. And
the V-6 Toyota? The coolant was always changed by the dealer before I
got the car. I changed it last time, and carefully measured what I took
out, since Toyota's book capacity specs have seldom matched my real life
experience. When I put that amount back in, it wasn't near full! I put
over a quart MORE in the engine than what I took out right then, and
then a half pint or more in the next few days. Tell me there weren't
some hot spots in THAT system? And Toyota was even thoughtful enough to
put a second radiator cap in a crossover area on the engine. I won't
even waste time recounting tales from friends and family that are
similar. In contrast, my Subie's pretty straightforward with minimal
"topping off" required in the first few days after a coolant change.
So criticize Subie if you wish, but I've got enough of a Missouri
heritage you're gonna have to "show me" why Subie's any worse off than
the others before I'll take much stock in the criticism!
Rick
Could you describe how to properly burp this engine?
Ours is currently being rebuilt with the upgraded HG,
is it possible to fit a bleeder pipe to help with burping?
Where does it need to be fitted?
here also is a link from an aircraft mechanic ..
.scroll down to air in coolant and he describes the problem and fix
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/engine.htm
cliff, i remember seeing a site where a guy took about three days to
fill his system.....
you must work for subaru
> ....an it takes more then just filling the
> top radiator hose....to get the air out takes numerous attempts or a
> swirl tank which is what pilots use when using that engine in a
> plane....a yank from mn
Ahah!
Hold it right there---don't go anywhere!
"Swirl tank", "swirl pot"---what the heck
are they?!?! Details, please.
lets hope this one opens
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
The link needs "html" to work.
According to this guy you cite, Subaru has made
changes in response to the problem:
"So trapped air causes head warp, which causes
air to enter the cooling system. It was pretty
amusing that at the same time I discovered this
entrained air sensitivity in the 2.5 engine, so
too did the auto dealers. Head warp caused by
customers changing their coolant is now the
number one warranty item with this engine. All
caused by an engine block that was not plumbed to
dynamically remove air from the high point.
Subaru has since changed their cooling system
design. "
it would be nice for subaru to own up to it and tell the rest of
us......my forester cost 25 grand.....like i said... a recall for a
drill and tap and swirl tank would have been an hour fix.it has cost a
lot of these people $1500-2000 and its still not fixed...
http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-28600.html
I feel your pain. I guess, I really just don't care. A line from a song
popular in TEXAS goes; 'It's your misfortune and none of my own'.
Carl
you gave us bush...thanks for nuthin'
It tells me someone collected some names... approx 1/10 of 1% of one
year's sales figures, and that's IF they all had the same year car! If a
manufacturer of any product has 99.9% of his production free of a
particular problem or defect, I can see how he might not put all his
efforts into fixing what's really a non-existent problem from HIS
standpoint. Now, as someone else said, if YOUR vehicle is one of the
defective ones, it's a whole different story. To YOU! But to the mfr
it's a numbers game and somebody's gonna lose. "Sorry it was you," they
say. And they move on... be glad you weren't burned up in a Pinto!
Thanks for trying with that link, but if one reads the fellow's blog,
his story's so full of holes I'd hardly consider him credible. $40 for a
radiator hose clamp? They (Subaru) put the cooling system conditioner in
the oil? Come on, now, you've gotta do better than that!
Rick
"Carl 1 Lucky Texan" <alck...@swbell.not> wrote in message
news:XHiCe.2580$M_7....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
> I feel your pain. I guess, I really just don't care. A line from a song
> popular in TEXAS goes; 'It's your misfortune and none of my own'.
Yup, we've all heard a lot of that recently. I guess we should
nominate you Carl for President of alt.autos.subaru :)))
Now back to the issue, I think there is a lot of fluctuaction
and "regression to the mean" in quality of car manufacture.
By this I mean brands that have built a reputation can afford
some slack later on, and manufacturers who got sloppy
if they want to stay in business they must improve their products.
So perhaps the best bet is to buy a brand that has had
some problems in recent past and hopefully is in the
improvement cycle, and avoid those basking in recent glory
cause they may be in the desceding phase of the cycle.
Recently this would be avoid Subaru, buy say Hyundai.
Tomorrow, or even today it may be the opposite. Who knows
how long a described cycle lasts.
MN
Thanks ed for the how to....it may make people think the local fast
lube may not be the place to change coolant
carl
bj wrote:
--
> Thanks ed for the how to....it may make people think the local fast
> lube may not be the place to change coolant
Hmmmm...
Ed's experience changing coolant mirrors mine. You've gotta be careful
AND know what you're doing and why you're doing it in a particular
order. And it takes TIME to do it right. So while the bubbles are coming
to the top, let's think about something with having the quickie lube
place do the job:
People with lots of education and years of experience design cars.
People with years of experience building a certain make put them
together. The dealer service departments USUALLY require a fair amount
of education, both initial and continuing, of the people working on
those cars. New things are learned along the way and TSBs are sent out.
Service procedures are developed and/or modified. This all costs money.
And it's STILL not a perfect system.
So Joe Carowner figures he'll save a buck or two by taking his car to
the local quickie lube where some 17 yr old high school dropout type who
probably can't even spell "TSB" let alone has read one, has 10 minutes
to change everything in the car for $19.95 or whatever, while the
"manager" under pressure from above tries to sell JC on all kinds of
other "services" to keep the store's sales figures up and growing. And
in all this haste JC's car gets screwed up... I think we've all heard
enough quickie lube horror stories to fill their own NG.
Should we blame the manufacturer? I wonder how many of the "damaged"
cars were the result of dealer servicing vs quickie lube vs DIY types?
That might tell a REAL story!
Rick
My two duckets,
LK
Will have to say the the Subaru design leads to these kinds of
problems. Flat engine with coolant exit between front and back cyl
(if engine not level there is bigger chance of air entrapment when
replacing the coolant) and very low mounted radiator compared to
engine position. All these things help contribute to trapped air.
For many if not most the Subaru is their only experience with this
design and thus not making them aware of potential for entrapped air
when changing coolant.
Subaru could do themselves and their customers a service if they would
stress this to a greater extent than they do. Not every owner takes
their car back to the dealer for this kind of simple service.
In some areas where Subaru's are not popular even so called
professionals may not have the needed knowledge to purge the cooling
system correctly. Ran into this myself some months back while on a
trip and had cooling problems. Radiator plugged from coolant
conditioner. Radiator shop close to where I was at the time had never
worked on a Subaru before and had no knowledge. I pulled the radiator
myself, let them do their thing and I reinstalled, filled the cooling
system and purged according to the manual. If left to the shop,
overheating was just a few miles away.
Mickey
rick, show me any other site about any other make and head gasket
failure...the problems you see on that site are a fraction of those
experienced.
Do you really believe the any but a small fraction of the owners with
HGFailure found that site and took the time to post? Hardly.
Ikreh,...better check the years 96-2000...consumer reports and others
question the engine
Carl the cowboy....texas..a whole lot of nuthin'
> rick, show me any other site about any other make and head gasket
> failure...the problems you see on that site are a fraction of those
BJ,
As I alluded to in my first reply to you, it's clear your mind's made up
and trying to confuse you with facts is a waste of time, so you'll
pardon me if I don't parry with you further in the search for continued
entertainment.
Rick
Before quickly brushing aside the guy's valid but maybe slightly
exaggerated concerns what about answering his question whether
you work for Subaru?
MN
Save a lot of $$$$
My 2 cents
Pat
"MN" <M...@sbcglobal.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
bEACe.159$NU2...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> what about answering his question whether you work for Subaru?
Sorry, no such question's shown up on my newsreader, but if it had, NO,
I don't work for Subaru (or any other car company.)
Rick
Well, I just put googled 'n' head gasket failure and changed 'n' half a
dozen times. Here's a sample out of what were consistently long forum,
complaint and advocacy returns.
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=101&did=565
http://groups.msn.com/ToyotaOwnersUniteforResolution/headgaskets.msnw
So yes, Subis have had a problem with hgs, but so have most other
manufacturers over the last couple of decades - whether running 4, 6 or 8
cyls; sohc, dohc, or pushrods; straight, V, or flat configuration and
engines ranging from sub 1L to over 5L. I'm happy with this one and my
last one. The OB 2.5 isn't perfect, uses more petrol than its mainstream
competition and has higher than average routine service bills - although
not much at all outside those service intervals - but it inspires
confidence and is a delight to drive well over 99% of the time here in
Aus, over a huge range of road surfaces and conditions; so I'll put up
with a few negatives. Cheers
From the vague descriptions, sounds like this is
exactly what I have on my 2.0L...pressurized
tank,higher than rest of the system...thanks!
I have. Me thinks you've missed the point. -LK
>when they had the great 2.2 engine?...will they ever own up to the
>failure of the 96-99 2.5l DOHC? let alone the later 2.5 SOHC with
>their head gasket failures? Will they ever own up to the design flaw in
>the engine which is not a gasket problem but a basic design problem
>allowing hotspots from air bubbles in the coolant..
>
>it would have been a cheap fix to drill and tap the coolant crossover
>pipe to allow the air to escape....but subaru denial is the cheaper
>fix...
>
>if you do change your coolant...take care to remove the air, burp the
>system and save your heads...and do a google search for "subaru head
>gasket failures"
SOA has finally issued a TSB for the rattling heat shields ...coat hanger. They aren't actually
admitting that the shields rattle, but the mechanics are instructed to install the coat hanger on
cars that have come in for the Bar's Leak head gasket fix.
Rumor has it that SOA has recently purchased some 19,000 rolls of duct tape in bulk. Not sure what
they have planned for that, but I'm certain that whatever it is, it'll be a refreshing advancement
in automotive service technology. It's clear that GM's involvement has been a good thing (initially
there were concerns). -Danny
Should we assume the cynicsm meter pegged on
that one? :-P
...gee, when will we see Subaru "Employee
Discount" pricing?
Mostly. Uhh oh, this just in... "Exciting changes are due!" "SOA to become SOL in '06."
>...gee, when will we see Subaru "Employee
>Discount" pricing?
I bet a dime to a donut it's the minute that Subaru figures out that $26k SAAB 9/2 Aero's are
hitting street for less money than $24k WRX's. -Danny
The aircraft site said the problem was fixed by drilling and tapping
a small tube into the coolant tube above the engine, and connecting
that to the coolant reservoir.
Would this fix the problem, or is a swirl pot needed?
Is there a reservoir, or just an overflow bottle, in these cars?
Alternatively, could the tube be simply fitted with a tap to allow
bleeding?
I'm just trying to work out what to as the repair shop to do to our
engine while it's out of the car... in addition to valve guides, head
machining, gasket, clutch... :-(.
Clifford Heath.
my guess is a bleed screw may not do it since it may take a while for
the air to get out...the swirl pot (the highest point of the system) is
pressure tight but has enough size to it to catch the air
you may be able to email the guy via his web page
Agree.
> my guess is a bleed screw may not do it since it may take a while for
> the air to get out...the swirl pot (the highest point of the system) is
> pressure tight but has enough size to it to catch the air
To catch how much air? Do they have a valve to let it out as well?
A colleague at work had a Commodore (Australian GM V6) with exactly
the same design fault - except it had a bleeder. He used a tall
funnel taped into the radiator to fill it, with the bleeder open,
running until the stat opens up and topping until the bleeder
stopped burping air.
I think that's the minimum I will do with our Suby.
He just responded to my email. His radiator fill cap is the highest
thing in his cooling system, so he runs a tube from the crossover
pipe to extract air from there. The air stops under the cap, using
the top of the rad like a swirl pot. No bleed valve needed.
In the car, you need to run the tube either to a pressurised coolant
reservoir above the engine (where the air will be trapped), or to a
bleed valve.
Clifford Heath.
Carl
Clifford Heath wrote:
--