Source RPM for zfs-fuse with pool v26 support

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Gordan Bobic

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Aug 14, 2013, 5:10:36 AM8/14/13
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In case anyone else finds such a thing more convenient than pulling source from git:

http://ftp.redsleeve.org/pub/yum/SRPMS/extra/zfs-fuse-0.7.0.20121023-5.el6.src.rpm

Emmanuel Anne

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Aug 14, 2013, 9:10:40 AM8/14/13
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Actually notice also that you can use the "snapshot" links from the web interface to get the source without installing git.


2013/8/14 Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com>
In case anyone else finds such a thing more convenient than pulling source from git:

http://ftp.redsleeve.org/pub/yum/SRPMS/extra/zfs-fuse-0.7.0.20121023-5.el6.src.rpm

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my zfs-fuse git repository : http://rainemu.swishparty.co.uk/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=zfs;a=summary

Gordan Bobic

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Aug 14, 2013, 9:17:43 AM8/14/13
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That's exactly what I did, I grabbed a snapshot of the latest commit/master. :)

Durval Menezes

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Aug 14, 2013, 9:30:25 AM8/14/13
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Hi Gordan 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 6:10 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
In case anyone else finds such a thing more convenient than pulling source from git:
http://ftp.redsleeve.org/pub/yum/SRPMS/extra/zfs-fuse-0.7.0.20121023-5.el6.src.rpm

Thanks for making it available, will sure save some time here.

Cheers, 
-- 
   Durval.

Gordan Bobic

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Aug 14, 2013, 9:35:41 AM8/14/13
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You're welcome. It seems to support fs  <= v5 and pool <= v26, so should be able to handle zfs send|receive to/from the other implementations.

Durval Menezes

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Aug 14, 2013, 9:53:57 AM8/14/13
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Hi Gordan, 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
You're welcome. It seems to support fs  <= v5 and pool <= v26, so should be able to handle zfs send|receive to/from the other implementations.

I can confirm I was able to import a v26 pool and mount its v5 FS, both created (and the FS populated) using ZoL 0.6.1; right now I'm doing running a "tar c| tar d" to verify whether any data/metadata differences show up on this pool (which is mounted using zfs-fuse) when compared against the snapshot in another pool I populated it from (which is right now mounted at the same time and on the same machine running ZoL 0.6.1). How cool is that, uh? :-)

Seriously now, I don't really expect to find any differences nor hit any issues, but I will post a reply to this message when it's finished (and cross-post to the ZoL list so our friends there know there's a reliable v26/v5 zfs-fuse available).

Thanks again,
-- 
   Durval.

Gordan Bobic

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Aug 14, 2013, 10:02:44 AM8/14/13
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On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Durval Menezes <durval....@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gordan, 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
You're welcome. It seems to support fs  <= v5 and pool <= v26, so should be able to handle zfs send|receive to/from the other implementations.

I can confirm I was able to import a v26 pool and mount its v5 FS, both created (and the FS populated) using ZoL 0.6.1; right now I'm doing running a "tar c| tar d" to verify whether any data/metadata differences show up on this pool (which is mounted using zfs-fuse) when compared against the snapshot in another pool I populated it from (which is right now mounted at the same time and on the same machine running ZoL 0.6.1). How cool is that, uh? :-)

Are you saying you have one mounted using ZoL and the other using Z-F? I have to say I hadn't really considered that option...
 
Seriously now, I don't really expect to find any differences nor hit any issues, but I will post a reply to this message when it's finished (and cross-post to the ZoL list so our friends there know there's a reliable v26/v5 zfs-fuse available).

Great. Of course the real test will be when somebody's pool breaks due to an implementation bug - something that may not happen for months/years (and hopefully never will, but it's nice to have some level of insurance like this).

On a totally unrelated note I'm now re-pondering switching even my rootfs-es to ZFS - yesterday I hit what seems to multiple disk failures manifesting as massive silent data corruption, and preliminary investigation suggests that MDRAID1+ext4 has disintegrated pretty thoroughly. Most inconvenient.

Durval Menezes

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Aug 14, 2013, 10:32:46 AM8/14/13
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Hi Gordan, 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Durval Menezes <durval....@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gordan, 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
You're welcome. It seems to support fs  <= v5 and pool <= v26, so should be able to handle zfs send|receive to/from the other implementations.

I can confirm I was able to import a v26 pool and mount its v5 FS, both created (and the FS populated) using ZoL 0.6.1; right now I'm doing running a "tar c| tar d" to verify whether any data/metadata differences show up on this pool (which is mounted using zfs-fuse) when compared against the snapshot in another pool I populated it from (which is right now mounted at the same time and on the same machine running ZoL 0.6.1). How cool is that, uh? :-)

Are you saying you have one mounted using ZoL and the other using Z-F?

Yep :-)
 
I have to say I hadn't really considered that option...

It's working great, and it's not difficult at all to do: I just installed the Z-F binaries (zpool, etc) in a different out-of-PATH directory, it's just a matter of running the binaries from there when one wants to do anything with the Z-F pools/FSs, and running the Zol binaries (from PATH) when one wants to handle the ZoL pools/FSs.
 
 
Seriously now, I don't really expect to find any differences nor hit any issues, but I will post a reply to this message when it's finished (and cross-post to the ZoL list so our friends there know there's a reliable v26/v5 zfs-fuse available).

Great. Of course the real test will be when somebody's pool breaks due to an implementation bug - something that may not happen for months/years (and hopefully never will, but it's nice to have some level of insurance like this).

Nahh.... :-) I think I found a really easy way to break a ZoL pool (and in fact anything that depends on flush for consistency): just run it in a VirtualBox VM with host disk caching turned on, then power off the VM without exporting the pool... I know that shouldn't be so, but it was that way that I managed to screw up a perfectly good pool (in fact, that one I'm now diff'ing) when testing imports with multiple OSs: the very first time I shut down the VM without exporting it (while running OpenIndiana FWIW) the pool wouldn't import anymore until Nils made me aware of the -X complement to the -F switch... 

In fact, when the diff is over I think I'm going to try and crash that pool again just to see whether this latest zfs-fuse can import it. 
 
On a totally unrelated note I'm now re-pondering switching even my rootfs-es to ZFS - yesterday I hit what seems to multiple disk failures manifesting as massive silent data corruption, and preliminary investigation suggests that MDRAID1+ext4 has disintegrated pretty thoroughly. Most inconvenient.

Ouch. 

FWIW, if we were betting, I would put all my cash on ext4 being the culprit: in my experience the whole extX family sucks in terms of robustness/reliability. I've not used extX  in machines under my direct supervision at least since 2001 when ReiserFS became solid enough for production use, but in a client which insists on running only plain-bland-boring EL6 and which is subjected to frequent main power/UPS SNAFUs, theyt used to lose at least 2 or 3 ext4 hosts every time they lost power, and that in a universe of 20-30 machines.... by contrast, a specially critical machine of theirs which I personally insisted on configuring with ReiserFS running on top of linux md just kept running for years through that selfsame power hell, never losing a beat. This (and many other experiences) lead me to having a lot of faith in Linux md and reiserfs, and a lot of doubt on ExtX.

In fact, my involvement with ZFS (initially FUSE and then ZoL) started in 2008 when it became clear that there would be no ongoing significant maintenance for ReiserFS... and, depending on performance, I may even end up running ZoL on top of md :-)

Gordan Bobic

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Aug 14, 2013, 10:44:10 AM8/14/13
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On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Durval Menezes <durval....@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gordan, 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Durval Menezes <durval....@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gordan, 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
You're welcome. It seems to support fs  <= v5 and pool <= v26, so should be able to handle zfs send|receive to/from the other implementations.

I can confirm I was able to import a v26 pool and mount its v5 FS, both created (and the FS populated) using ZoL 0.6.1; right now I'm doing running a "tar c| tar d" to verify whether any data/metadata differences show up on this pool (which is mounted using zfs-fuse) when compared against the snapshot in another pool I populated it from (which is right now mounted at the same time and on the same machine running ZoL 0.6.1). How cool is that, uh? :-)

Are you saying you have one mounted using ZoL and the other using Z-F?

Yep :-)
 
I have to say I hadn't really considered that option...

It's working great, and it's not difficult at all to do: I just installed the Z-F binaries (zpool, etc) in a different out-of-PATH directory, it's just a matter of running the binaries from there when one wants to do anything with the Z-F pools/FSs, and running the Zol binaries (from PATH) when one wants to handle the ZoL pools/FSs.

I'd be concerned about cross-importing pools by accident. That is likely to lead to corruption as they are being accessed simultaneously. Be careful.

Seriously now, I don't really expect to find any differences nor hit any issues, but I will post a reply to this message when it's finished (and cross-post to the ZoL list so our friends there know there's a reliable v26/v5 zfs-fuse available).

Great. Of course the real test will be when somebody's pool breaks due to an implementation bug - something that may not happen for months/years (and hopefully never will, but it's nice to have some level of insurance like this).

Nahh.... :-) I think I found a really easy way to break a ZoL pool (and in fact anything that depends on flush for consistency): just run it in a VirtualBox VM with host disk caching turned on, then power off the VM without exporting the pool... I know that shouldn't be so, but it was that way that I managed to screw up a perfectly good pool (in fact, that one I'm now diff'ing) when testing imports with multiple OSs: the very first time I shut down the VM without exporting it (while running OpenIndiana FWIW) the pool wouldn't import anymore until Nils made me aware of the -X complement to the -F switch... 

That isn't  ZoL specific issue, or even a ZFS specific issue - it's just that other file systems won't notice as much wrong, even if some of your data is trashed.
 
In fact, when the diff is over I think I'm going to try and crash that pool again just to see whether this latest zfs-fuse can import it. 
 
On a totally unrelated note I'm now re-pondering switching even my rootfs-es to ZFS - yesterday I hit what seems to multiple disk failures manifesting as massive silent data corruption, and preliminary investigation suggests that MDRAID1+ext4 has disintegrated pretty thoroughly. Most inconvenient.

Ouch. 

FWIW, if we were betting, I would put all my cash on ext4 being the culprit: in my experience the whole extX family sucks in terms of robustness/reliability. I've not used extX  in machines under my direct supervision at least since 2001 when ReiserFS became solid enough for production use, but in a client which insists on running only plain-bland-boring EL6 and which is subjected to frequent main power/UPS SNAFUs, theyt used to lose at least 2 or 3 ext4 hosts every time they lost power, and that in a universe of 20-30 machines.... by contrast, a specially critical machine of theirs which I personally insisted on configuring with ReiserFS running on top of linux md just kept running for years through that selfsame power hell, never losing a beat. This (and many other experiences) lead me to having a lot of faith in Linux md and reiserfs, and a lot of doubt on ExtX.

I'm more suspecting the fundamental limitation of MD RAID1 here. If the disk is silently feeding back duff data, all bets are off, and unlike ZFS, traditional checksumless RAID has no hope of guessing which disk (if not both) is feeding back duff data for each block.
 
In fact, my involvement with ZFS (initially FUSE and then ZoL) started in 2008 when it became clear that there would be no ongoing significant maintenance for ReiserFS... and, depending on performance, I may even end up running ZoL on top of md :-)

Knowing your data is trashed is of limited usefulness (but better than nothing, I guess). Not sure why you'd run ZFS on top of MD, though, rather than give ZFS the raw disks/partitions.

Gordan

Durval Menezes

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Aug 14, 2013, 11:07:11 AM8/14/13
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Hi Gordan, 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Durval Menezes <durval....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Durval Menezes <durval....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
You're welcome. It seems to support fs  <= v5 and pool <= v26, so should be able to handle zfs send|receive to/from the other implementations.

I can confirm I was able to import a v26 pool and mount its v5 FS, both created (and the FS populated) using ZoL 0.6.1; right now I'm doing running a "tar c| tar d" to verify whether any data/metadata differences show up on this pool (which is mounted using zfs-fuse) when compared against the snapshot in another pool I populated it from (which is right now mounted at the same time and on the same machine running ZoL 0.6.1). How cool is that, uh? :-)

Are you saying you have one mounted using ZoL and the other using Z-F?

Yep :-)
 
I have to say I hadn't really considered that option...

It's working great, and it's not difficult at all to do: I just installed the Z-F binaries (zpool, etc) in a different out-of-PATH directory, it's just a matter of running the binaries from there when one wants to do anything with the Z-F pools/FSs, and running the Zol binaries (from PATH) when one wants to handle the ZoL pools/FSs.

I'd be concerned about cross-importing pools by accident. That is likely to lead to corruption as they are being accessed simultaneously. Be careful.

Humrmrmr.... doesn't importing a pool marks it on disk as busy, in such a way as to require "-f" for a subsequent import? That is, I should be safe as long as I take enough care when specifying -f to import, right?
 

Seriously now, I don't really expect to find any differences nor hit any issues, but I will post a reply to this message when it's finished (and cross-post to the ZoL list so our friends there know there's a reliable v26/v5 zfs-fuse available).

Great. Of course the real test will be when somebody's pool breaks due to an implementation bug - something that may not happen for months/years (and hopefully never will, but it's nice to have some level of insurance like this).

Nahh.... :-) I think I found a really easy way to break a ZoL pool (and in fact anything that depends on flush for consistency): just run it in a VirtualBox VM with host disk caching turned on, then power off the VM without exporting the pool... I know that shouldn't be so, but it was that way that I managed to screw up a perfectly good pool (in fact, that one I'm now diff'ing) when testing imports with multiple OSs: the very first time I shut down the VM without exporting it (while running OpenIndiana FWIW) the pool wouldn't import anymore until Nils made me aware of the -X complement to the -F switch... 

That isn't  ZoL specific issue, or even a ZFS specific issue - it's just that other file systems won't notice as much wrong, even if some of your data is trashed.

I fully agree. If I were testing other filesystems, I would have them checked via the "tar c|tar d" method no matter what... 
 

In fact, when the diff is over I think I'm going to try and crash that pool again just to see whether this latest zfs-fuse can import it. 
 
On a totally unrelated note I'm now re-pondering switching even my rootfs-es to ZFS - yesterday I hit what seems to multiple disk failures manifesting as massive silent data corruption, and preliminary investigation suggests that MDRAID1+ext4 has disintegrated pretty thoroughly. Most inconvenient.

Ouch. 

FWIW, if we were betting, I would put all my cash on ext4 being the culprit: in my experience the whole extX family sucks in terms of robustness/reliability. I've not used extX  in machines under my direct supervision at least since 2001 when ReiserFS became solid enough for production use, but in a client which insists on running only plain-bland-boring EL6 and which is subjected to frequent main power/UPS SNAFUs, theyt used to lose at least 2 or 3 ext4 hosts every time they lost power, and that in a universe of 20-30 machines.... by contrast, a specially critical machine of theirs which I personally insisted on configuring with ReiserFS running on top of linux md just kept running for years through that selfsame power hell, never losing a beat. This (and many other experiences) lead me to having a lot of faith in Linux md and reiserfs, and a lot of doubt on ExtX.

I'm more suspecting the fundamental limitation of MD RAID1 here. If the disk is silently feeding back duff data, all bets are off,

This sure can happen, but in my experience is very rare... in the many dozens of disks which have been under my direct care during the last few years, only once I found a silent duff-producing disk... and I'm very careful, even on the ones I wasn't running ZFS I think I would have detected any issues (see below). 
 
and unlike ZFS, traditional checksumless RAID has no hope of guessing which disk (if not both) is feeding back duff data for each block.

This is indeed the case. But it can detect the duff (unless of course all disks in the array are returning exactly the same duff, which I find extremely improbable): it's just a matter of issuing a "check" command to the md device, which I do every day on every md array.
 
 
In fact, my involvement with ZFS (initially FUSE and then ZoL) started in 2008 when it became clear that there would be no ongoing significant maintenance for ReiserFS... and, depending on performance, I may even end up running ZoL on top of md :-)

Knowing your data is trashed is of limited usefulness (but better than nothing, I guess).

Well, one can always restore the affected data from a backup... although I agree, it's much better to have it automatically restored from a good copy from somewhere else in the array.  
 
Not sure why you'd run ZFS on top of MD, though, rather than give ZFS the raw disks/partitions.

In a word: performance. It's still unclear to me how RAIDZ2 will perform performance-wise when compared to RAID6... the reasonable behavior would be for ZFS to suffer only onder under a sustained random write load (ie, write IOPS) as only then it would have to reread the whole RAID stripe to recalculate its syndrome (ie, exactly like RAID6), but I've read conflicting reports that other loads would suffer too.. so I'm gonna test it myself. In fact, I'm bringing up an experimental machine here right now with 6 1TB SATA disks exactly to test that.

Cheers, 
-- 
   Durval.


 


Gordan

Gordan Bobic

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Aug 14, 2013, 11:17:03 AM8/14/13
to zfs-...@googlegroups.com, zfs-d...@zfsonlinux.org
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Durval Menezes <durval....@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gordan, 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Durval Menezes <durval....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Durval Menezes <durval....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
You're welcome. It seems to support fs  <= v5 and pool <= v26, so should be able to handle zfs send|receive to/from the other implementations.

I can confirm I was able to import a v26 pool and mount its v5 FS, both created (and the FS populated) using ZoL 0.6.1; right now I'm doing running a "tar c| tar d" to verify whether any data/metadata differences show up on this pool (which is mounted using zfs-fuse) when compared against the snapshot in another pool I populated it from (which is right now mounted at the same time and on the same machine running ZoL 0.6.1). How cool is that, uh? :-)

Are you saying you have one mounted using ZoL and the other using Z-F?

Yep :-)
 
I have to say I hadn't really considered that option...

It's working great, and it's not difficult at all to do: I just installed the Z-F binaries (zpool, etc) in a different out-of-PATH directory, it's just a matter of running the binaries from there when one wants to do anything with the Z-F pools/FSs, and running the Zol binaries (from PATH) when one wants to handle the ZoL pools/FSs.

I'd be concerned about cross-importing pools by accident. That is likely to lead to corruption as they are being accessed simultaneously. Be careful.

Humrmrmr.... doesn't importing a pool marks it on disk as busy, in such a way as to require "-f" for a subsequent import? That is, I should be safe as long as I take enough care when specifying -f to import, right?

IIRC there was a thread on the ZoL list a few days ago started by somebody who wanted such a feature, but I don't think it exists (supposedly ext4 has it).
 
Seriously now, I don't really expect to find any differences nor hit any issues, but I will post a reply to this message when it's finished (and cross-post to the ZoL list so our friends there know there's a reliable v26/v5 zfs-fuse available).

Great. Of course the real test will be when somebody's pool breaks due to an implementation bug - something that may not happen for months/years (and hopefully never will, but it's nice to have some level of insurance like this).

Nahh.... :-) I think I found a really easy way to break a ZoL pool (and in fact anything that depends on flush for consistency): just run it in a VirtualBox VM with host disk caching turned on, then power off the VM without exporting the pool... I know that shouldn't be so, but it was that way that I managed to screw up a perfectly good pool (in fact, that one I'm now diff'ing) when testing imports with multiple OSs: the very first time I shut down the VM without exporting it (while running OpenIndiana FWIW) the pool wouldn't import anymore until Nils made me aware of the -X complement to the -F switch... 

That isn't  ZoL specific issue, or even a ZFS specific issue - it's just that other file systems won't notice as much wrong, even if some of your data is trashed.

I fully agree. If I were testing other filesystems, I would have them checked via the "tar c|tar d" method no matter what... 

Tripwire is technically the tool specifically designed for that job...
 
In fact, when the diff is over I think I'm going to try and crash that pool again just to see whether this latest zfs-fuse can import it. 
 
On a totally unrelated note I'm now re-pondering switching even my rootfs-es to ZFS - yesterday I hit what seems to multiple disk failures manifesting as massive silent data corruption, and preliminary investigation suggests that MDRAID1+ext4 has disintegrated pretty thoroughly. Most inconvenient.

Ouch. 

FWIW, if we were betting, I would put all my cash on ext4 being the culprit: in my experience the whole extX family sucks in terms of robustness/reliability. I've not used extX  in machines under my direct supervision at least since 2001 when ReiserFS became solid enough for production use, but in a client which insists on running only plain-bland-boring EL6 and which is subjected to frequent main power/UPS SNAFUs, theyt used to lose at least 2 or 3 ext4 hosts every time they lost power, and that in a universe of 20-30 machines.... by contrast, a specially critical machine of theirs which I personally insisted on configuring with ReiserFS running on top of linux md just kept running for years through that selfsame power hell, never losing a beat. This (and many other experiences) lead me to having a lot of faith in Linux md and reiserfs, and a lot of doubt on ExtX.

I'm more suspecting the fundamental limitation of MD RAID1 here. If the disk is silently feeding back duff data, all bets are off,

This sure can happen, but in my experience is very rare... in the many dozens of disks which have been under my direct care during the last few years, only once I found a silent duff-producing disk... and I'm very careful, even on the ones I wasn't running ZFS I think I would have detected any issues (see below). 

Yeah, it's rare (for some definition of rare) but it's now happened to me twice in the past 4 years. Both times with no early warning signs.
 
and unlike ZFS, traditional checksumless RAID has no hope of guessing which disk (if not both) is feeding back duff data for each block.

This is indeed the case. But it can detect the duff (unless of course all disks in the array are returning exactly the same duff, which I find extremely improbable): it's just a matter of issuing a "check" command to the md device, which I do every day on every md array.

Sure, that'll tell you that some of the data is duff, but it is still non-repairable.
 

Durval Menezes

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Aug 16, 2013, 12:02:00 PM8/16/13
to zfs-...@googlegroups.com, zfs-d...@zfsonlinux.org
Hi Gordan, 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Durval Menezes <durval....@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gordan, 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Durval Menezes <durval....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Durval Menezes <durval....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
You're welcome. It seems to support fs  <= v5 and pool <= v26, so should be able to handle zfs send|receive to/from the other implementations.

I can confirm I was able to import a v26 pool and mount its v5 FS, both created (and the FS populated) using ZoL 0.6.1; right now I'm doing running a "tar c| tar d" to verify whether any data/metadata differences show up on this pool (which is mounted using zfs-fuse) when compared against the snapshot in another pool I populated it from (which is right now mounted at the same time and on the same machine running ZoL 0.6.1). How cool is that, uh? :-)

Are you saying you have one mounted using ZoL and the other using Z-F?

Yep :-)
 
I have to say I hadn't really considered that option...

It's working great, and it's not difficult at all to do: I just installed the Z-F binaries (zpool, etc) in a different out-of-PATH directory, it's just a matter of running the binaries from there when one wants to do anything with the Z-F pools/FSs, and running the Zol binaries (from PATH) when one wants to handle the ZoL pools/FSs.

I'd be concerned about cross-importing pools by accident. That is likely to lead to corruption as they are being accessed simultaneously. Be careful.

Humrmrmr.... doesn't importing a pool marks it on disk as busy, in such a way as to require "-f" for a subsequent import? That is, I should be safe as long as I take enough care when specifying -f to import, right?

IIRC there was a thread on the ZoL list a few days ago started by somebody who wanted such a feature, but I don't think it exists (supposedly ext4 has it).

IIRC, that thread reflects a different situation: the OP wanted to be able to *automatically* distinguish at "zpool import -f" time whether other host that had imported the pool was still alive or if it had just crashed, so as to be able to import -f it safely in another host being brought up to replace the first. There are similarities with using both Z-F and ZoL on the same host to access the same pool by accident, but it ends with the "automatic" requirement: my imports will be done manually and (in case -f is needed), very, very, *very* carefully :-)
 

Seriously now, I don't really expect to find any differences nor hit any issues, but I will post a reply to this message when it's finished (and cross-post to the ZoL list so our friends there know there's a reliable v26/v5 zfs-fuse available).

Great. Of course the real test will be when somebody's pool breaks due to an implementation bug - something that may not happen for months/years (and hopefully never will, but it's nice to have some level of insurance like this).

Nahh.... :-) I think I found a really easy way to break a ZoL pool (and in fact anything that depends on flush for consistency): just run it in a VirtualBox VM with host disk caching turned on, then power off the VM without exporting the pool... I know that shouldn't be so, but it was that way that I managed to screw up a perfectly good pool (in fact, that one I'm now diff'ing) when testing imports with multiple OSs: the very first time I shut down the VM without exporting it (while running OpenIndiana FWIW) the pool wouldn't import anymore until Nils made me aware of the -X complement to the -F switch... 

That isn't  ZoL specific issue, or even a ZFS specific issue - it's just that other file systems won't notice as much wrong, even if some of your data is trashed.

I fully agree. If I were testing other filesystems, I would have them checked via the "tar c|tar d" method no matter what... 

Tripwire is technically the tool specifically designed for that job...

Humrmrmr.... tecnically tripwire is for intrusion detection, no? I agree it would be more convenient to catch data/metadata corruption in a production FS, but in my test case (as I still have the exact original data in a snapshot from the other ZFS pool where I populated the pool in question via a "zfs send|receive"), I think a "tar c|tar d" is not only much simpler, but more guaranteed to catch any differences (after all, tripwire checksum collisions do happen, and using more checksum algorithms only reduce -- not eliminate -- it's probability). I agree it's a very low probability, but with "tar c| tar d" we have *certainty* as it compares byte-by-byte (or at least as much certainty as we are allowed to have in a Universe ruled by Quantum Physics and Murphy's Law :-)). 
 
 
In fact, when the diff is over I think I'm going to try and crash that pool again just to see whether this latest zfs-fuse can import it. 
 
On a totally unrelated note I'm now re-pondering switching even my rootfs-es to ZFS - yesterday I hit what seems to multiple disk failures manifesting as massive silent data corruption, and preliminary investigation suggests that MDRAID1+ext4 has disintegrated pretty thoroughly. Most inconvenient.

Ouch. 

FWIW, if we were betting, I would put all my cash on ext4 being the culprit: in my experience the whole extX family sucks in terms of robustness/reliability. I've not used extX  in machines under my direct supervision at least since 2001 when ReiserFS became solid enough for production use, but in a client which insists on running only plain-bland-boring EL6 and which is subjected to frequent main power/UPS SNAFUs, theyt used to lose at least 2 or 3 ext4 hosts every time they lost power, and that in a universe of 20-30 machines.... by contrast, a specially critical machine of theirs which I personally insisted on configuring with ReiserFS running on top of linux md just kept running for years through that selfsame power hell, never losing a beat. This (and many other experiences) lead me to having a lot of faith in Linux md and reiserfs, and a lot of doubt on ExtX.

I'm more suspecting the fundamental limitation of MD RAID1 here. If the disk is silently feeding back duff data, all bets are off,

This sure can happen, but in my experience is very rare... in the many dozens of disks which have been under my direct care during the last few years, only once I found a silent duff-producing disk... and I'm very careful, even on the ones I wasn't running ZFS I think I would have detected any issues (see below). 

Yeah, it's rare (for some definition of rare) but it's now happened to me twice in the past 4 years. Both times with no early warning signs.

And, with the current trend of "consolidation" (read: duopoly) in the hard disk business, I think this only tends to get worse... 
 
 
and unlike ZFS, traditional checksumless RAID has no hope of guessing which disk (if not both) is feeding back duff data for each block.

This is indeed the case. But it can detect the duff (unless of course all disks in the array are returning exactly the same duff, which I find extremely improbable): it's just a matter of issuing a "check" command to the md device, which I do every day on every md array.

Sure, that'll tell you that some of the data is duff, but it is still non-repairable.

Not *automatically* repairable, I agree. OTOH, one can always manually restore from the last backup as soon as you know it's corrupted... for some cases, this can be a reasonable tradeoff re: performance... 

Cheers, 
-- 
   Durval.

Durval Menezes

unread,
Aug 16, 2013, 12:07:10 PM8/16/13
to zfs-...@googlegroups.com, zfs-d...@zfsonlinux.org
Hi Gordan, Everybody, 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Durval Menezes <durval....@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Gordan, 

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com> wrote:
You're welcome. It seems to support fs  <= v5 and pool <= v26, so should be able to handle zfs send|receive to/from the other implementations.

I can confirm I was able to import a v26 pool and mount its v5 FS, both created (and the FS populated) using ZoL 0.6.1; right now I'm doing running a "tar c| tar d" to verify whether any data/metadata differences show up on this pool (which is mounted using zfs-fuse) when compared against the snapshot in another pool I populated it from (which is right now mounted at the same time and on the same machine running ZoL 0.6.1). How cool is that, uh? :-)

Seriously now, I don't really expect to find any differences nor hit any issues, but I will post a reply to this message when it's finished (and cross-post to the ZoL list so our friends there know there's a reliable v26/v5 zfs-fuse available).

I'm happy to report that the "tar c|tar d" finished without finding any differences whatsoever, so I consider Gordan's RPM more than good enough for recovery purposes (ie, to import a possibly non-importable-under-ZoL <=v26 pool and getting the data out of it). Thanks again to Gordan for making it available. 

Cheers, 
-- 
   Durval.

Gordan Bobic

unread,
Aug 16, 2013, 1:03:22 PM8/16/13
to zfs-...@googlegroups.com, Durval Menezes, zfs-d...@zfsonlinux.org
On 08/16/2013 05:02 PM, Durval Menezes wrote:
> Hi Gordan,
>
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Gordan Bobic <gordan...@gmail.com
> <mailto:gordan...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Durval Menezes
> <durval....@gmail.com <mailto:durval....@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi Gordan,
>
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Gordan Bobic
> <gordan...@gmail.com <mailto:gordan...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 3:32 PM, Durval Menezes
> <durval....@gmail.com <mailto:durval....@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Gordan Bobic
> <gordan...@gmail.com <mailto:gordan...@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Durval Menezes
> <durval....@gmail.com
> <mailto:durval....@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Gordan Bobic
> <gordan...@gmail.com
True to some extent, but the chances of getting a crypto-hash collission
are such that if you are concerned about them, you should probably be
buying lottery tickets - the probability of generating a "collission"
there is much higher. :)
Triopoly. Don't forget Toshiba.

> and unlike ZFS, traditional checksumless RAID has no hope of
> guessing which disk (if not both) is feeding back duff data
> for each block.
>
>
> This is indeed the case. But it can detect the duff (unless of
> course all disks in the array are returning exactly the same
> duff, which I find extremely improbable): it's just a matter of
> issuing a "check" command to the md device, which I do every day
> on every md array.
>
>
> Sure, that'll tell you that some of the data is duff, but it is
> still non-repairable.
>
>
> Not *automatically* repairable, I agree. OTOH, one can always manually
> restore from the last backup as soon as you know it's corrupted... for
> some cases, this can be a reasonable tradeoff re: performance...

Depends on the type of file, I guess. If it's an OS or a user file that
doesn't change much, great. If it's an InnoDB database file you are well
and truly out of luck.

Gordan

Gordan Bobic

unread,
Aug 16, 2013, 1:04:24 PM8/16/13
to zfs-...@googlegroups.com, Durval Menezes, zfs-d...@zfsonlinux.org
Glad to hear somebody else finds it useful. :)

Gordan

Durval Menezes

unread,
Nov 22, 2014, 8:22:10 AM11/22/14
to zfs-...@googlegroups.com, durval....@gmail.com, zfs-d...@zfsonlinux.org
Hi Gordan, 

Sorry to resuscitate such an old thread, but this seems to be the relevant point for asking that question:

I suppose your SRPM does not include Ray's patch for ashift support mentioned here, or does it? 

If it doesn't, and you plan on incorporating it someday, I would be grateful if you let me know. I'm a heavy user of your SRPM, and every day it becomes more difficult to find with non-AF HDs to work with... 

Cheers, 
-- 
   Durval.

Emmanuel Anne

unread,
Nov 22, 2014, 1:13:30 PM11/22/14
to zfs-...@googlegroups.com
I guess you know it was merged in this git repository :
http://rainemu.swishparty.co.uk/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=zfs;a=summary
but you absolutely want an srpm ?
Too bad... !


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