But then I wonder how you deal with
situations that arise such as when my children got together with a
neighborhood child (who used to live in our house...long story), and
decided it would be fun to yank the pickets from the back fence.
Or howwould you all handle it when in just goofing and having fun mychildren put a HUGE hole in the wall.
Or perhaps you know how to dealwith sidewalk erosion because when even asked not to spray the waterhose on the fragile ailing sidewalk they persisted on water blastexcavation just to get the particulate out the concrete.
Or abeautifully decorated journal, which I'd hoped would inspire drawingor writing
Markers for school projects which are sneaked up tobedrooms in the middle of the night and left uncapped on brand newcarpeting.
I feel like the most hurrendous parent in the world that Icannot discipline or even help them self-discipline themselves fromsuch disasters.
We've asked them please only drinkmilk at meals.
One idea for children eating or drinking tons of something they want a
lot of at the moment is while you might want to consider avoiding the
backlash associated with verbally offering something else because "too
much milk" alarms and that will surface in your tone, you could still
make sure other options are available and I have used the trick of non
verbally pointing at something different and stopping expectantly for
a second in front of them. Sometimes ds would go for a change and
other times, he just shook his head and continued toward what he had
in mind.
I have witnessed the dozen egg cooked for one phenomenon many times
with ds! It still "cracks" me up. ;)
~Katherine
I am certainly not equating the nutritional values of
milk and "Swedish Fish" (the gummy-bears in fish
shapes). But, after I bought dd an $8.00 plastic jar
of them and brought it home as "a surpise gift for no
good reason because I was thinking of you", there has
been no more talk from dd of us looking for Swedish
fish every time we go in a store. She had had a need,
and now it's no longer there.
Instead of buying milk for your husband, could you try
buying your children their own personal gallons of
milk and see if that changes anything? Note the subtle
difference in the same thing. "No, this milk is for
dad" vs. "Here's lots of milk I bought just for you",
and quietly label milk for your husband and baby with
no comment. Of course, their bodies may be craving it,
and that's why they drink so much. But the gesture of
you doing the opposite of what you usually do
concerning milk consumption would make a big impact on
them, regardless.
For cheap milk, dh's mother would buy powdered milk
and mix it half and half with fresh milk in extra
cartons she kept onhand, and that cut the cost way
down.
Priscilla
--- k <kath...@gmail.com> wrote:
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Did anyone "moderate" your joining? For some lists, one has to write
the listowner to ask for permission, and sometimes they're asked to
explain why they want to join. Not so this list.
Some posts were let through that I knew others were going to jump on,
and one of the moderators (any of them) could have chosen to decline
to send your post on, to save your feelings.
People get angry when their posts are discussed sometimes, but they
get even more angry if a moderator says "You need to read a while
more before you post."
It's not so easy moderating a list like this.
But because others who are reading get chances to clarify their own
thoughts when the discussion gets heated, it's worth the risk sometimes.
-=-I still have trouble, from the outside looking in, seeing how the
ideals you believe in are applied across the board in every
situation. -=-
If people are living by rule, it's nearly impossible to tell what it
would look like to live by principles.
Once one is living by principles, it's nearly impossible to make a
move that's contrary to those principles. It doesn't happen
overnight, but it's much different than just changing from one set of
rules to another.
-=-There are even simpler things like drinking milk every time they want
a drink because it's available. We've asked them please only drink
milk at meals. It cost more than gasoline, and my kids have less
mileage than my van if you get my drift. LOL -=-
Try not to laugh out loud at your children in this forum. It never
goes over well.
Comparing them to a vehicle is not the best move either.
There are worse things than wanting to drink milk. There are more
expensive things than milk (fencing, walls, painting walls, repairing
sidewalks). But your children are worth that. Don't budget against
your children. Budget FOR your children.
-=- I'm not sure we can. I'm not sure if its because of our
personalities and
preferences, or if its our moral belifs, or what.-=-
I doubt that your moral beliefs are more lofty than mine or of others
here. Perhaps you see moral beliefs in terms of rules and not
principles, though, too.
-=- I'm not sure what
hinders us from foreseeing this methodolgy in application over our
lives.-=-
It's very difficult to understand unschooling at first.
-=-How would these principles change the behavior we dislike in
our children and exalt the behavior that we do so enjoy when they
present it.-=-
"Exalt" is a Christian buzzword. If your stumbling block involves
freedom or respect for children, if it seems a temptation to sloth
and sin to give children choices, then you might not be able to
unschool.
Nobody loses a commission here if you don't unschool. We're just
trying to help you for absolutely free, to be nice, to make the world
a more peaceful place.
If your priorities lean toward salvation and you've ever once in
these discussions thought "eek, humanists," then unschooling would be
difficult for you.
Sandra
This could never, ever happen at our house for three reasons:
Kids don't need to sneak, there are no school projects, and the only
time we put new carpet in a kid's room it was motley brown.
The hurdles you have are of your own creation.
Sandra
Since milk has been compare to gasoline already, let's go with that
for a moment.
You could make cheap gasoline by mixing something in with it too, but
is it good for the car?
My brother in law ended up legally separated and in another state and
his sons (about Kirby/Marty ages) don't know him well and don't like
him.
One thing he insisted on before his wife decided she would just as
soon have him in another state is buying milk when it was on sale and
freezing it, and drinking the thawed milk.
I've always been a big milk drinker, and neither powdered milk nor
defrosted formerly frozen milk is as good as fresh milk. Skim milk
isn't as good as whole milk.
Those tricks will save money, but will also discourage kids from
wanting milk (or liking their parents, in some cases).
Milk has always been more expensive than gasoline. It's more than
salt, and less than gold. So what?
It's not a good comparison.
Sandra
What I do, and many do, is just what you have done with this post. I post
about the real situations. Sometimes I post about what happened, sometimes
about ongoing issues. (Also I check the archives if I'm going through
something that seems similar to what has been mentioned recently.)
Usually people respond with how they applied the principles in a similar
situation, which in action is making choices that turn towards, or take
steps towards, Unschooling. For me the phrase "towards Unschooling" is
shorthand for all the choices that move us towards the kind of family
centered joyous life that we *want* to live. So when I ask myself "is this
action moving towards Unschooling" I really mean is it towards happiness,
ease, comfort, trust, communication, understanding, jubilation, kindness, my
ethics and what I believe is right.
One of the things that happens is that the assumptions we live by become
different from those of conventional parents. The examined and mindful
assumptions that I live by include ideas like "all knowledge is connected",
"Jayn learns automatically and constantly", "Jayn is always doing her best
she can with the tools she has available", "Jayn will make better and better
choices when the range of options are wide", "information not directives;
help not punishment", "Jayn reflects my emotional state", "ask Why" and
"unschooling is about making Jayn's life bigger and brighter and more
sparkly (then James and my lives are too)". I make just as many mistakes and
have just as many accidents, like dropping things, as Jayn. I don't take her
accidentally breaking something as a personal affront or as something
intentional. (That is a whole different energy!)
Trust goes both ways. Children won't have the need to sneak stuff if they
can trust you to do your real best to help them meet their needs, even if
the need is something that superficially seems destructive.
The issues that are mentioned here are broadly in the area of problem
behavior situations. Our dd is just 8, and there are still times when both
she and dh and I are challenged by her behavior.
In talking things over with Jayn, what I am never asking is "am I teaching
Jayn something". I find if I am asking (or having a conversation with dh)
along the lines of is Jayn learning something negative if I respond to her
behavior in any particular way, it usually means that I am lost. This is an
interesting idea. That if I am worried about her learning that she can "get
away with rudeness" for example, or "that she can treat people a certain
way", I am on a "mindset slide" towards conventional, even punitive,
parenting.
What is better is if I bypass the question of what is she learning and just
assume that she is learning something. This is OK for us since we are past
any kinds of questions about whether children learn just as well through
Unschooling; we are totally convinced and committed to Unschooling as a
lifelong paradigm.
What is better is if I first look around to what has just been happening -
is it the end of a long day and she needs to process, have I been focussed
elsewhere, is she feeling bad about something that happened between her and
a friend and hasn't been able to express it yet. Her stress cup might need
to be emptied with some out pourings.
If something has happened that has been what could be labelled "destructive"
(eg breaking some plants) I tend to assume that she just wasn't thinking, or
got caught up in something, or that she truly is too young to appreciate the
wider consequences. It is important not to over react to things as if they
were an indication of a lifelong character defect. Usually it really is just
the excitement of the moment. If poor outcomes happen repeatedly in the
presence of any particular visitor, my first answer is to maintain a closer,
more visible presence. That way if the plan sounds dubious, I can suggest
something else. I try to be seen as the facilitator regardless of who is
there.
If you are serious in asking "what would you have done" in something similar
to the several situations you mention, we can certainly answer that with our
different ideas, as Joyce has. What is worthwhile remembering is that the
answers won't be framed along the lines of "...in order to prevent this from
happening again" or with the mindset that this is how we express our
disapproval.
<<<< They thought
> they were protecting him with a small mattress on the floor >>>>
How wonderful that they put some thought into protecting him! This shows
they had fine intentions.
<<<<< Markers for school projects which are sneaked up to
> bedrooms in the middle of the night and left uncapped on brand new
> carpeting. >>>>
OK - no more school projects - there are way better uses for markers. ;)
If Jayn were "sneaking" then that would be a sign to me that she doesn't
trust me, and probably that the restriction (do we have any? I'd have to ask
her what they are) is not reasonable in her opinion. Her opinion counts too!
More than counts, often is the most important factor. We'd find a way around
my/dh's concerns.
I bought a very (very) cheap rug from Ralphs (like Krogers) to put as a
reasonably pretty (traditional pattern) drop cloth under our craft area. It
is slowly getting wrecked and it is *great* not to care. The antique persian
rug we inherited is in storage until Jayn is older. Ikea has inexpensive
rugs. The internet has lots of places where instructions for hand painted
floor cloths exist - what a great project for the kid's own rooms.
There are also other types of markers, such as the Crayola ones that only
work on the special paper. There are markers that are spring loaded instead
of having lids.
<<<<< I feel like the most hurrendous parent in the world that I
> cannot discipline or even help them self-discipline themselves from
> such disasters. >>>
It really helps if you can stop seeing these things as being disasters. I
know they may feel like cataclysms in the moment, but really they are not.
They might be a nuisance, or a drag, or a bit of money, but as you noted
no-one was hurt, and you have the opportunity to take from these events some
new knowledge about what inpires and excites your children.
It sounds awful, but whenever I get tempted to start focussing on the parts
of my life that are problems and get into a spiral of negativity, it helps
me to remember those worse off than I am - if I am tired, I think if women
in the concentration camps or women in Africa walking miles for a bucket of
water which they then have to carry home. When I get fed up with doing
things for my family, I think of those people who have lost children to
illness or accident, and the people who have lost spouses, and remember that
I still have the wonderful opportunity to give them the gifts of my time and
effort and these little things I can do for them, like reorganize Jayn's
markers by color and type into a new container that is easier for her use.
<<<<> There are even simpler things like drinking milk every time they want
> a drink because it's available. We've asked them please only drink
> milk at meals. It cost more than gasoline, and my kids have less
> mileage than my van if you get my drift. LOL I can't afford a huge
> dairy appetite. So then what would y'all do in this situation? Would
> you not buy the milk?>>>
I would buy more milk.
I found that I need to buy three cartons at once every few days. Then we
rarely run out.
What you have done here is create an arbitrary response to a real issue. The
only way for food not to have an emotional association (that enhances the
value of the scarce) is free access and plenty of choices. I would bet that
they are drinking more milk *because* it is restricted and controlled.
Really all that drinking milk with a meal will do is prevent the person from
being able to tell when they have eaten enough to feel satisfied. I like
Joyce's suggestions. What are you buying that the kids would agree to forgo
or have less of in order to direct those funds towards more milk?
<<<< I guess you might ask them to stop, or
> consider others, but what if they don't stop or consider others? >>>>
Empathy comes on gradually and is connected to both developmental level and
how much it has been modelled to you - in the form of having your feelings,
needs and expressions honored and valued. The only people who truly don't
have empathy are sociopaths (or they now give it a different disorder name).
I bet your kids show more empathy than you realize (see note about the small
mattress) - but you can't rush the process. I once wrote about empathy
development being like the tide coming in - slowly and with the occasional
really big wave that then recedes. Sometimes I need to remember that image
to let go of my expectations about it.
<<<<<How would these principles change the behavior we dislike in
> our children and exalt the behavior that we do so enjoy when they
> present it. >>>>
I don't think Unschooling is about focussing on changing behavior. Jayn
absorbs our values by osmosis. When I am focussed on changing her behavior
the results are always sticky, icky and unsatisfactory. When I try to
understand what her behavior is telling me about her feelings and needs, the
results are always more closeness - and often very sweet apologies from her.
When I change *myself* and my thinking and attitudes and everything else
that is good follows.
Robyn L. Coburn
If your priorities lean toward salvation and you've ever once in
these discussions thought "eek, humanists," then unschooling would be
difficult for you.
Sandra
When you're dismissive of your children it doesn't hurt me and it
doesn't hurt my children.
It hurts you, your children, your view of your children, and the
potential for an optimal relationship with your children.
Watch your language, because then you wlll see thought processes you
might not have seen otherwise.
Watch your thoughts, because without doing that you can't really
learn to choose better reactions.
Sandra
If you raise them as you were raised, won't the chance be greater?
http://sandradodd.com/food
I accidentally erased my bunches-of-grapes background, and haven't
gotten to restoring that folder yet. Sorry.
Sandra
-=-For cheap milk, dh's mother would buy powdered milkand mix it half and half with fresh milk in extra-=-
cartons she kept onhand, and that cut the cost way
down.
I've always been a big milk drinker, and neither powdered milk nor
defrosted formerly frozen milk is as good as fresh milk. Skim milk
isn't as good as whole milk.
Those tricks will save money, but will also discourage kids from
wanting milk (or liking their parents, in some cases).
Milk has always been more expensive than gasoline. It's more than
salt, and less than gold. So what?
"Just" can be a damning word.
They want to play video games all day. Must be good ones!
http://sandradodd.com/videogames
They don't need to go to a book to learn when they're playing games.
They're already learning like crazy.
Sandra
I'm going to print it out and stick it on my refrigerator.
-=-
Very cool piece of writing.
Holly and I were talking just two days ago about people who say
"hate" and how much better they could feel and think if they heard
themselves and stopped.
-=-use and instead of but.
“But” dismisses the statement before it.-=-
Just yesterday on another list I objected to a statement that was "I
have the utmost respect...but..." And the author thought I was
offended. I was pointing out the discrepancy in the statement.
When people speak without thinking, they're speaking thoughtlessly.
Very literally so.
When people write without thinking, they're writing thoughtlessly.
No sense arguing about that. It's just better to work on being
thoughtful.
Sandra
Regarding the milk. I have to say that I've found that with bigger
families that it's both harder and more crucial to take steps to
avoid scarcity thinking. I grew up in a family with seven children,
and I have four children myself. I remember how quickly we'd go
through "treats" in my house growing up. Sometimes, with extra-yummy
things, it happens in my house, too. Sometimes, there's competition
over my time as well. I feel like when that starts happening I'm
doing something wrong. It is, frankly, when I've got something else
major going on (right now, for example, we're moving again) and I'm
not giving the kids the attention they need. When I see that kind of
thing happening it's my signal to stop and pay more attention to the
needy ones.
Some things that have helped with the food are a) buying a package
of, say, cookies for each child b) making sure that they know if we
need more, we'll buy more, whether it's of cookies or milk. In my
experience, there's nothing more likely to upset kids and therefore
get them in a hoarding mode is a feeling of lack. (It's not unusual
for kids who have been removed from situations of neglect to hoard
food.) If you feel as though the kids are drinking too much milk, I
would suggest buying a ton of it for a while. Point out how much milk
you have, and that if you run out, you'll buy more. I've also found
that when there's too much parental talk about consideration for
others that children began to feel less treasured themselves. Being
generous with children seems to do a better job of creating generous
children than anything else I've found.
Kathleen
in SoCal
> . Or how
> would you all handle it when in just goofing and having fun my
> children put a HUGE hole in the wall. My son was pushed backwards off
> my daughters bedside and his behind landed in our wall. ...
Kirby learned to read ALL maps from the map of the first Mario
Brothers game.
Kirby learned to read ALL indexes from the index to Nintendo Power
Magazine, which he bought with his own money before he could even
read fluently, and would ask me to help him look things up.
Understanding 15:32 in a magazine index enables one to look things up
in the Bible or Shakespeare or anywhere.
Fifteen years later / today:
Kirby called me a couple of hours ago, while he was walking to work
at his video-game-company job in Austin. He's very happy where he
is, and he had uploaded some photos for an article I'm working on.
He told me he loved me.
it's not an "end result," but it's a life-point filled with data.
Sandra
Yes, unfortunately that money-saving trick and others
had a very negative effect on dh's relationship with
his parents.
Priscilla
--- Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote:
> -=-For cheap milk, dh's mother would buy powdered
> milk
> and mix it half and half with fresh milk in extra
> cartons she kept onhand, and that cut the cost way
> down...........
........Those tricks will save money, but will also
> discourage kids from
> wanting milk (or liking their parents, in some
> cases).
> Sandra
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
-=-
The general name is "citation" or "reference."
The Nintendo Power index shows the issue number and page number, so 15:32 would be Issue #15, page 32.
In traditional/older magazine notation, there might be a volume number (probably the year, probably in Roman Numerals) and then an issue number, and then a page. I just picked up the nearest magazine, and in the fine print on Page 16 it says OK! Volume 3 Issue No. 37. We bought it for a photo of Zac Efron, I think. So that's not very important, but if we needed to cite the source for some reason we could say OK! Vol3 37:19 or something.
For Shakespeare, the notation is the play, the act, the scene and the line number.
It will look like Hamlet III.ii.33 (I just made that up... Now I'm looking up what I pulled out of the air.... It's part of Hamlet talking to the players. "neither having the
accent of Christians, nor the gait of Christian, pagan, nor man, have so strutted and...")
For the Bible, first they name the book (Genesis, Matthew, whatever) and then the chapter and the verse. From that comes the phrase "chapter and verse," meaning that someone communicated in solid detail.
Here's part of an article I wrote for people wanting to use early-modern English for purposes of historical re-enactments:
Here are some interesting passages which can be read painlessly and without fear of religious effect. The first number is the chapter, and the second is the verse. There will probably be a list of the books in order in the beginning of the Bible.
For a little more serious reading, try Genesis 27, the entire chapter. It's the story of Jacob and Esau - disguise and intrigue. The chapters following that are good, too (including the mandrake story recommended above, and a genetics lesson).
If you read a more modern version of the Bible you won't get the effect we're after. Language like "And the King said unto Haman, The silver is given to thee, the people also, to do with them as it seemeth good to thee" will be changed to "'Keep the money,' the king said to Haman, 'and do with the people as you please.'" (Esther 3:11, chosen at random, first King James and then New International)
Sandra
The funny part - her dog!! She has a small dog and she only gives him 1/4
cup of food twice per day. Her vet did prescribe this and all - but he will
grab at any and everything foodlike when they are staying with us. It is a
constant struggle to keep cat food up, door to the litter box closed
(ewww), etc. What does this have to do with food and children...it's like he
is deprived! My dog always has access to his food...not that he wouldn't eat
things that drop on the floor - but he doesn't seem as desperate as her dog.
I think it is the same with children - or people for that matter. If you
feel deprived you are more likely to overeat. Now I understand that with
certain gene types people can have a tendancy toward obesity - and msot of
the food culture we have can lead people more in that direction but for the
most part it is when you feel deprived that you tend to overindulge. Maybe
this is a generalization and looking at dogs and children should be
completely different. I just feel like her food rules are now applied to
her dog - and it is a constant struggle for her.
I do notice that my kids react differently to abundance. For example -
halloween candy...my son will eat it first things in the monring and all day
long until it is gone. My youngest daughter makes a candy "collection" and
she eventually winds up throwing out some of it when we find it months
later. My oldest daughter likes to share hers with all her friends.
I used to get into trouble for eating things like frosting out of the
cupboard - because it was the only thing sweet - or chocolate in the house
but my mother thought it was for cakes not snack. The other day I bought
chocolate chips to make this really good hot chocolate. So we had it two
nights and I had enough for another batch. Well, I came in and found my
daughter eating the chocolate chips - and my immediate thought was 'those
were for something!" - not for eating...well duh - thankfully I thought
better before I said anything. But those old "rules, and ideas" about foods
really are hard to not fall back on.
I will say that I am not perfect in this area. There have been tough
finanical times where I have a hard time with wasting food...and I can
cetainly understand the milk dilemma - but I would rather they be drinking
milk because it is good for them. My husband has very few preferences. One
is limeade and the other cranberry juice...so the kids all percieve this and
tend to never take the last glass of it. They all have certain things they
pick-up at the grocery store and the others for the most part respect that
and don't eat it all on them. I try and stress that we can always get more.
I figure it is just something that comes along with living with a group of
other people....
Heather
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandra Dodd" <San...@sandradodd.com>
To: <Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 5:41 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: I think I get it, wait maybe, I'm not
sure.
>
Too much justification for writing thoughtlessly.
You can't hear my intonation either, but others can because I write
as I speak, and speak as I write.
You can hear my voice here, if if you want to: http://
www.radio4all.net/proginfo.php?id=11724
Some someone's "authentic self" involves not being tactful or
compassionate, that's a problem.
If someone's habitual humor is harmful to their attitude toward
children, that's a problem on this list.
-=- That's not where my heart was in saying so. I
also think that because of the tool we are using here to communicate
that something is lost in translation. -=-
Don't try to use a saw as a hammer.
The tool we're using here can be used very well, but it takes thought
and practice. No one is preventing reflection and proofreading.
It's fine (and would be good) for you to hold a post and edit it
carefully. Those who choose not to shouldn't complain about reactions.
-=- As powerful as words can be, the
right attitude and heart behind the mistake can change how the words
were perceived.-=-
Words can harm children forever. You're very unlikely to traumatize
any of the moms reading here, but we can help you learn not to
traumatize your children, and to think and write more clearly, if you
want.
-=-Sandra also said, "Watch your thoughts, because without doing that
you
can't really learn to choose better reactions."
-=-I agree with this in part.-=-
IN PART?
-=-However, changing our thinking doesnt always change the way we act in
word and deed right away. -=-
So what? Without changing your thinking you can NEVER change the way
you "act in word and deed" ever.
I think perhaps you're confusing quantity of words with quality of
words. Could you please send shorter but more carefully thought out
posts?
-=So for example I've actually begun to try to speak and do a little
differently even though my thoughts remain in turmoil. The principles
of unschooling haven't really converted to convictions yet. I'm in the
testing phase. Let me see if this action (thought, word, and deed),
has the outcome that everyone desires--balance.-=-
It will take long months to years for unschooling to become a
conviction. Don't share all your thoughts with the list, just the
best ones.
Sandra
The fence issue wasn't a one time episode.
And believe you
me, while no one here might approve, you might even be appalled but
that spanker spoon was in hand!!!
Once for a 7 and 8 year old should be enough.
They had no respect for property that was not even ours
(belongs to MIL), not only that but my children who said it was "NK's
idea," didn't even try to stop this activity.
With the third time
under our belts, and spanker spoon in hand (though we didn't use it--
mercy!)
we sent home NK, and DD and DS were not allowed to see the
light from the outside for one week and no NK for 2 weeks.
I agree that children have needs that must be met. I didn't learn
this lesson with the first two kids, but through a book I read I
learned to do it with the last and it has made all the difference in
the world.
There is a difference between a need and a deep desire and a want.
They want to dig in the dirt, because they like to dig in the dirt.
But it is not a NEED. If they do not dig up the rocks from Nana's
yard, or pull the pickets off the fence they will not suffer
malnutrition or psychological disrepair nor will they grow to believe
that I did not love them because I did not let them.
Like good hard work on something you are
passionate about that took so much energy but the reward just made the
backache sooo worth it. I don't want my passion for them to wane.
My right brain says everything will be different when we get back to
being our own family, in our own space in Michigan.
OH GOSH, what do I do if my right
brain is an unschooler and my left brain is a schooler?
When you move to MI leave the spoon behind. Bury it in the back yard under
some of those excavated rocks. Toss it into that scary ravine. Make a
ceremony of it.
Before Jayn was born I stated aloud, a verbal commitment, never to spank
her. I have repeated that commitment, out loud and in writing, many times
since.
Because I have taken spanking off the table, taken all punishment off the
table, I must find another way to deal with her behavior. This list and some
of the others are full of better tools for my parenting toolbox.
<<<< There is a difference between a need and a deep desire and a want. >>>
You can choose not to be the arbiter of what is a "need" and what is a
"want". You can allow your children to make that determination for
themselves.
The need might be the basic human need to learn and explore.
Jayn's most central personal need, outside of food, water, cuddles and
sleep, is for her own autonomy. So much of her startling or challenging
behavior makes complete sense when I see it in the light of this core need.
It has taken me close to eight years to understand this about her. Boy do I
feel dumb!
Robyn L. Coburn
I was being my authentic self, in
the sense that I expressed myself in a manor fitting the person I am
and the culture I grew up in
However, changing our thinking doesnt always change the way we act inword and deed right away.
Pam, do you still have your list for recovering spankers?
The fence issue wasn't a one time episode.
There is a difference between a need and a deep desire and a want.
If they do not dig up the rocks from Nana'syard, or pull the pickets off the fence they will not suffermalnutrition or psychological disrepair nor will they grow to believethat I did not love them because I did not let them.
My right brain says everything will be different when we get back tobeing our own family
Our kids aren't ripping up fences because they're naturally model kids.
Unschooling is *more* work than you're doing right now. It is *more* involvement with your children. It involves *more* attention to what's going on. It happens to be way more fun and way less frustrating than what you're doing now, it is work, a lot of work. The best kind of work with the best kind of benefits - a great relationship with my kid & *myself*!!
Then again, anyone who has kids thinking it won't be work is deluded :D
If you can *choose* not to think of your children negatively, *choose* to think positively because it will make you all happier, then you will be happier.
For a little more serious reading, try Genesis 27, the entire chapter. It's the story of Jacob and Esau - disguise and intrigue. The chapters following that are good, too (including the mandrake story recommended above, and a genetics lesson).
Sandra
Once some years ago a mom came to the list and talked harshly about
spanking her children. I shamed her just as harshly. She wrote,
complaining that I didn't care about her feelings and that I had made
her cry.
OH BROTHER!!!!
She had made children cry by physical hurt, and then bragged about
it and defended it to a thousand strangers, justified her cold-
hearted actions, and then wanted me to feel remorse and to apologize
because I had made her feel bad about it!!!
Guess whether I was sorry.
Guess whether she quit spanking.
Answers in the next post.
Sandra
I was not sorry. I was thrilled that she had built herself a trap
and climbed into it and reported the results to those same thousand
people.
I don't know whether she quit spanking. For her children's sake, I
hope so. She left the list in a huff because we weren't "supportive."
Her short-lived presence was good for others on the list. They saw
something extreme and ugly and irational, and it helped every lurker
and casual reader to see more clearly what she herself believed and
why, without ever having to write a word.
Deb Lewis wrote a couple of things I want to quote and riff upon:
-=-When my authentic self isn't the nicest or best self, I can fix
mydumbassself. -=-
Deb's been on this list a long time and knows that many people's
dumbassselves have come here wanting support to maintain their
stances instead of help to change.
If I supported stupidity, that would be cruel and awful. I would be
aiding and abetting people who were harming children.
-=- I don't see much of the grace and mercy you
wrote about earlier when you consider the motivations of these kids.-=-
I consider children when I write to their parents here.
When a child is already being shown the wrong end of a spoon by his
mother, in her "mercy," it seems the kindest thing to do is to disarm
and shake up the mom so that she can begin as soon as possible to be
the kind of mother her children need so that they can be the kind of
children she can relax around and be thrilled to know.
Sandra
In a message dated 11/18/2007 12:32:46 A.M. Eastern
Standard Time, lizz...@yahoo.com writes:
and maybe change a |
*****************
I have been a member of this list for a few years and
rarely post. I absorb the vast amount of knowledge and wisdom and
advice this list has to offer, but your continued posts, justifications,
and "yeah, buts ... " have pulled me out from the woodwork.
This list is an incredibly valuable resource for parents
who want to do things in a different way than the perceived "norm".
There are people on this list who have consciously chosen to take a
different path when it comes to life, parenting, and living on this
planet.
I have CHOSEN to treat my children with respect and
kindness. They do not have to EARN it, they simply have to BE.
I am one of the many on this list who can say that it works. No IF,
ANDS, or BUTS.
I've heard it from every response to your many
emails. It sounds like you are not THERE with your children.
Children who repeatedly get into mischief, after being asked not to, are
telling you they need you. They need your presence, they need your
company, they need your love, they need your respect, they need your
trust. When you send small children out to play and "hope" they
don't get into trouble, you are in fact, inviting it.
Since it sounds like you come from a very different
"place" when it comes to parenting, it will take a while before your
children trust and believe that you have their best interest at
heart. Simply providing for their physical safety is not
enough. What about their emotional safety?
My only advice is that you silence the defense attorney
in yourself and simply sit quietly and read the many great posts that
appear daily on this list. More importantly, LISTEN to them with an
open mind and open heart.
There are better ways to raise a child. This list
is one place to find those ways.
Withhold the "spare the rod, spoil the child"
arguments. Those belong on another list altogether. This list
is for people who truly want to be with their families in a loving,
peaceful, trusting way.
My hope for you is that you find the wisdom and
discernment to hear what is being said here and apply it to the lives of
yourself and your children. Quiet yourself. Listen.
Learn.
Don't "maybe change" a few things at a time.
"Definitely change" as many things as you can, as quickly and as lovingly
as you can. You AND your family will benefit
enormously.
Linda |
Withhold the "spare the rod, spoil the child" arguments. Those belong on another list altogether. This list is for people who truly want to be with their families in a loving, peaceful, trusting way.
Wow Schuyler. I never wear a belt and don't have outfits that need anything other than a cloth sash. No kidding, it could be an association of belts with threats and punishment. Unfortunately, images I won't mention here ---oppressive as they are--- are clear in my mind, still.
Same with me.
Neither Keith nor I had a great urge to be parents, and when we had
Kirby that all changed. Had we had him sooner, maybe we would have
had more than three. By the time I had Holly I was in my late 30's
and we figured we'd better stop.
Two things that changed me in great ways were La Leche League and al-
Anon's Adult Children of Alcoholics program, which I was attending
concurrently, from before Kirby was born for the latter, and from the
time he was four months old for the former. That went for a few years.
People learn from bad examples and good examples both. Surrounding
ourselves with bad examples can be too negative and depressing, but
an occasional bad example is very useful. We see our own progress.
Things I used to just see and wish I hadn't seen, I started
commenting on. I've told a few moms in public (quietly, but right
then and there) that if a man said to them what they had just said to
a child that people would be calling 911.
All my kids, but Holly especially, are very observant of other
people's parenting. They won't parent the way I did because they
don't think there's any other way. They will pick and choose of all
the things they've seen, avoiding some and emulating others. It will
be a continuation of the kinds of informed choices they've always
been making.
Sandra
Apparently lots don't care, they just take someone else's word
for the what the literal word of God is.
I'm going to say this in advance of quoting Scripture:
Anyone who doesn't want to know what it says in the Bible, close the
e-mail; no problem.
Anyone who thinks she knows more of what it says in the Bible than I
do, you might want to think again. Don't bring scripture here to
tell me it's okay for you to be mean to your children. I will kick
your ass with the King James Bible. I could do it with my little red
zippered words-of-Christ-in-red with "Sandra Adams" in gold on the
front, with it's little concordance. I could do it with my fullsize
concordance for years after that. And now I have google and
righteousness, so be careful defending harsh parenting with the Bible
where I am.
According to Matthew , Jesus said:
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the
same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me,
it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck,
and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. (18:4-6)
In Matthew 25, there are two important message from Jesus.
"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein
the Son of man cometh."
Your own child could be the messiah. Anyone here sure to want to
spank the Son of God with a spoon? Belt? The program from church,
even?
And later in the same chapter:
25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and
ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I
was in prison, and ye came unto me.
25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw
we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked,
and clothed [thee]?
25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say
unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of
these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
If anyone here doesn't know what all that could, I'd be glad to
explain it. There are traditional interpretations that have nothing
to do with children, but it's a stretch to do that.
When I was a kid, we did "Sword Drills"--speed Bible use. I was the
undisputed champion of my church. I have used that same sword to
defend poor little Baptist kids for many years since.
Sandra
*** I will kick your ass with the King James Bible***Well, just so's you don't covet my ass...
~K~
I don't recall using my
bible to justify my parenting practices nor have I used my bible or
knowledge of scripture to prop myself up as an authority on the bible
If there is disagreement about my parenting practices fine, noproblem. We'll have to agree to disagree for now.
I appreciate yoursensitivity, and I wont mention it again.
While the authors were careful tosay they thought spanking should be used sparingly (as we do), andnever in anger which we have tried to be careful not to do. Thisisn't me justifying, it's me stating a fact.
Until you can consider choosing what will work best for children,
unschooling will elude you.
-=- This isn't me justifying, it's me stating a fact.-=-
Stating a fact to explain why one's choices aren't really so bad is
precisely, exactly what justification means.
-=-Not to mention bible believing and living mentors who see spanking
as a viable option.-=-
"Living"?
Is this a list populated by zombies, y'think?
I'm just back from eleven hours away to a funeral, burial, long
family reception (not my family, but longtime family friends), and I
feel very, very alive.
Sandra