Electric cable history

[Scott]

I saw former neighbours, who have moved house (address not stated for
legal reasons).

She told me a full rewire is needed. According to the electrician,
the cable is older than rubber cable [VIR, I assume]. My former
neighbour describes it as cloth covered. I have asked for a sample to
see what it is.

Personally speaking, at this point I would have pulled the main fuse.

Despite some Google searching, I cannot find details of the cable used
before VIR (Vulcanised India Rubber). I seem to remember that paper
may have been used. Could someone clarify? .

[Robin]

Lead sheathed came between paper and VIR.

It might be that they have cloth (Hessian?) covered VIR but it's ages
since I saw any and I can't really recall what it's like.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[Clive Arthur]

On 01/07/2022 14:02, Scott wrote:

Gutta-percha?

--
Cheers
Clive

[Robin]

On 01/07/2022 14:02, Scott wrote:

I should of course have known that the answer is to be found in

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Historic_Mains_Cables

[Jack Harry Teesdale]

On 01/07/2022 14:02, Scott wrote:

VIR came into general use in the early 1900's, prior to that cables were
oil impregnated inner insulation with lead covered outer sheaths.

Cloth coverings would have been introduced to replace the lead to reduce
cost.

VIR is not inherently dangerous but should be tested annually for
insulation resistance and visual condition.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <kfrtbhtb40o4eh8r8...@4ax.com>,

Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> Despite some Google searching, I cannot find details of the cable used
> before VIR (Vulcanised India Rubber). I seem to remember that paper
> may have been used. Could someone clarify? .

Fabric covered singles with, I assume, rubber insulation, used to be
pretty common. Same thing was used for car wiring up until about 1960.
Indeed, you can still buy it to restore old cars.

--
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Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[John Rumm]

On 01/07/2022 14:02, Scott wrote:

> I saw former neighbours, who have moved house (address not stated for
> legal reasons).
>
> She told me a full rewire is needed. According to the electrician,
> the cable is older than rubber cable [VIR, I assume]. My former
> neighbour describes it as cloth covered. I have asked for a sample to
> see what it is.

You quite often see PBJ (Poly Butyl Jute) insulated cables on things
like meter tails.

e.g.:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:MainSwitchandHenley.jpg

The red/black tails are PBJ


--
Cheers,

John.

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[Scott]

Thanks. She is describing it as cloth, not rubber. I suspect she may
be looking at it from the outside. My guess is VIR.

[Tim+]

How do you look at cable from the inside? An electron’s eye view? ;-)

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

[ARW]

Not sure what the red T&E is that is mentioned on that page.

There was a red double insulated single and earth around in the early
1970s - and it had the earth insulated with green/yellow (so the outer
double insulation and the insulation around the live core were both red
and you did not need earth sleeving.

The neutral at the time was a double insulated black cable cable with
both the outer and inner sleeving being black over a single cable.

Only ever seen it in 1.5 and 1.0mm sizes.

I saw some today at a golf course that opened in 1974 - I swapped three
of the DBs that were original (Crabtree C50's) whist a couple of other
lads installed a new SWA supply to make it a nice new 3 phase DB.

They had no choice to swap them as it had several C1s when I inspected
it and we have the power to disconnect.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:Widowmakers.jpg

becomes

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:Nonwidowmaker.jpg

Wonder what that cost them?

3 hours for two sparks and a reasonable 2nd year apprentice on
Wednesday. But an hour of that was me showing them the run and access to
the run and getting the kit in

9 hours for same again on Thursday.

5 hours for just the sparks on the Friday for the finishing touches.

Plus the kit.

35m of 25mm 4 core SWA plus tray and all round band etc. A 3 phase Hager
DB with 18 RCBOs

[SH]

Wow... a Sangamo Electromechanical timer..... that takes me back at
least 30 years!

[ARW]

It was still powered but not controlling anything. So I disconnected it.

I was still fitting them at Army housing back in 2016.

The Q551 is a brilliant piece of kit.

I very rarely see these fail.

[Tim+]

SH <i.lov...@spam.com> wrote:

>
> Wow... a Sangamo Electromechanical timer..... that takes me back at
> least 30 years!

Have a old one in my garage. Looks useful for something. Just haven’t
found a use yet. ;-)

[ARW]

On 01/07/2022 21:10, Tim+ wrote:
> SH <i.lov...@spam.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Wow... a Sangamo Electromechanical timer..... that takes me back at
>> least 30 years!
>
> Have a old one in my garage. Looks useful for something. Just haven’t
> found a use yet. ;-)
>

I have a challenge for you and all other posters who have one.

Try wiring one up.

These are unknown monsters until you know them.

[Tim+]

I did once. The connections weren’t entirely intuitive I see to recall.

[SH]

piece of piss.....

Left hand terminal was live in

middle terminal was neutral (commoned to neutral in and neutral out)

third terminal was live out

The electricy board could apply a meter seal to seal the clear plastic
cover to the black housing....

I also recall you could pull the electromechanical mechanism out of the
housing.

They were quite popular for switching either dual rate meters or night
storage heaters.

In my case, the Sangamo timer was used to power a vibrator in my
bed...... as timed vibrators were not available in the 1980s and I
needed something to make me rise up every morning.

[Scott]

Now they use AA batteries :-)

[John Armstrong]

In 1969 my parents moved to a house with off-peak heating. I remember
there were two Sangamo timers at the distribution board. One was
deeper front to back than the other, and you could pull the time
switch off the (bakelite?) back which was screwed to the board and
held the connections. They should have been sealed but weren't. I
also remember that one made connection to the heaters via an "Enbray"
contactor - something I've never seen before or since.

House was in Gourock, and Sangamo's factory is ten miles away in Port
Glasgow.

[Brian Gaff]

Well, from what I recall, some of the rubber covered stuff also had a kind
of fabric over the top. Certainly my old Grandmas house had that and it was
of the age were the toilet was in the garden. Our house which was built in
the 30s had some kind of e enhanced rubber covering that seemed not to have
hardened and cracked with a satin feel to the fabric outer layer. Obviously
it was all replaced by PVC. A lot of the cables that came out were just two
wires and others were two wires and a bare earth.
The circuit breakers were mostly just fuse wire except the immersion heater
which was a simple cut out.
Brian

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[Brian Gaff]

Ha ha. I think there must have been more than one sort of rubber used, as
some of it even today looks in remarkably good order when removed, while
other seems to turn to little bits and crumbles when bent. Both came with
fabric or no fabric. I've seen some of the wire that folk have stripped out
over the years as I was always on the look out for wire.
Interestingly when it came time to change our Cooker the wire was actually
made of aluminium. Not sure why this was done though. Must have been done
late 60s or so?

Brian

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"Tim+" <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:141620322.678390649.306...@news.individual.net...

[charles]

In article
<800870978.678398982.734...@news.individual.net>,

Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> SH <i.lov...@spam.com> wrote:

> >
> > Wow... a Sangamo Electromechanical timer..... that takes me back at
> > least 30 years!

> Have a old one in my garage. Looks useful for something. Just haven奏

> found a use yet. ;-)

> Tim

I installed one in our village hall because it has a solar dial. On at
dusk, off at midnight.
> --

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Peeler]

On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 09:11:45 +0100, Brainless & Daft, the notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:

> Ha ha. I think there must have been more than one sort of rubber used, as
> some of it even today looks in remarkably good order when removed, while
> other seems to turn to little bits and crumbles when bent. Both came with
> fabric or no fabric. I've seen some of the wire that folk have stripped out
> over the years as I was always on the look out for wire.

For a "blind" person, you are seeing a lot of things, Brainless & Daft, you
idiotic senile blabbermouth! <BG>

[Peeler]

On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 09:03:44 +0100, Brainless & Daft, the notorious,

troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:

> Well, from what I recall, some of the rubber covered stuff also had a kind
> of fabric over the top. Certainly my old Grandmas house had that and it was
> of the age were the toilet was in the garden. Our house which was built in
> the 30s had some kind of e enhanced rubber covering that seemed not to have
> hardened and cracked with a satin feel to the fabric outer layer. Obviously
> it was all replaced by PVC. A lot of the cables that came out were just two
> wires and others were two wires and a bare earth.
> The circuit breakers were mostly just fuse wire except the immersion heater
> which was a simple cut out.

> Brainless & Daft

Yep, everyone was waiting for your bullshit again, Brainless & Daft. <G>

[Robin]

On 01/07/2022 19:49, ARW wrote:

> On 01/07/2022 14:17, Robin wrote:
>> On 01/07/2022 14:02, Scott wrote:
>>> I saw former neighbours, who have moved house (address not stated for
>>> legal reasons).
>>>
>>> She told me a full rewire is needed.  According to the electrician,
>>> the cable is older than rubber cable [VIR, I assume].  My former
>>> neighbour describes it as cloth covered.  I have asked for a sample to
>>> see what it is.
>>>
>>> Personally speaking, at this point I would have pulled the main fuse.
>>>
>>> Despite some Google searching, I cannot find details of the cable used
>>> before VIR (Vulcanised India Rubber).  I seem to remember that paper
>>> may have been used.  Could someone clarify? .
>>
>> I should of course have known that the answer is to be found in
>>
>> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Historic_Mains_Cables
>>
>
> Not sure what the red T&E is that is mentioned on that page.
>
> There was a red double insulated single and earth around in the early
> 1970s - and it had the earth insulated with green/yellow (so the outer
> double insulation and the insulation around the live core were both red
> and you did not need earth sleeving.
>
> The neutral at the time was a double insulated black cable cable with
> both the outer and inner sleeving being black over a single cable.
>
> Only ever seen it in 1.5 and 1.0mm sizes.

Thanks. I don't feel so bad now at my previous ignorance of it.

> I saw some today at a golf course that opened in 1974 - I swapped three
> of the DBs that were original (Crabtree C50's) whist a couple of other
> lads installed a new SWA supply to make it a nice new 3 phase DB.
>
> They had no choice to swap them as it had several C1s when I inspected
> it and we have the power to disconnect.
>
> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:Widowmakers.jpg
>
> becomes
>
> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:Nonwidowmaker.jpg
>
> Wonder what that cost them?

> 3 hours for two sparks and a reasonable 2nd year apprentice on
> Wednesday. But an hour of that was me showing them the run and access to
> the run and getting the kit in
>
> 9 hours for same again on Thursday.
>
> 5 hours for just the sparks on the Friday for the finishing touches.
>
> Plus the kit.
>
> 35m of 25mm 4 core SWA plus tray and all round band etc. A 3 phase Hager
> DB with 18 RCBOs

I would have had a stab at the cost (excl. parts) 20 years ago but don't
have any idea these days of the all-up costs of labour (i.e. including
all the overheads). And there's other data that might be crucial: e.g.
whether your MD is a member of the club and wants to be the next captain.

[Jack Harry Teesdale]

The present JIB rate is £17/18 per hour for an approved spark.

20 years ago it would have been around £10.

Laxtons calculate overheads at circa 50% on top.

so 34 hours for the sparkies @ £15 = £510

12 hrs for the App say £90

So £600 labour plus profit margin?

[Brian]

Are you sure the actual cable - ie the cable between sockets etc- is cloth
covered and someone hasn’t used cloth sleeving in the sockets etc?

Even finding rubber these days must be unusual, although it does happen.
I’ve never heard of anyone finding cloth.

[Bob Eager]

On Sat, 02 Jul 2022 10:48:45 +0000, Brian wrote:

> Are you sure the actual cable - ie the cable between sockets etc- is
> cloth covered and someone hasn’t used cloth sleeving in the sockets etc?
>
> Even finding rubber these days must be unusual, although it does happen.
> I’ve never heard of anyone finding cloth.

I've seen quite a few flexible cables with cloth covering.

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wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
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[SH]

yes, to wire them you you had to undo the clear plastic cap and then you
grabbed hold of its knob and pulled it out....

That then left an empty back case, and there were terminal screws at the
bottom on the inside

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <t9nime$15vo$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

SH <i.lov...@spam.com> wrote:
> Wow... a Sangamo Electromechanical timer..... that takes me back at
> least 30 years!

Think there were two basic types. One of which varied the on/off by
daylight length - for things like shop signs and so on. Clever bit of kit.

--
*A cubicle is just a padded cell without a door.

[williamwright]

On 01/07/2022 21:01, ARW wrote:
> Sangamo Electromechanical timer.

Every block of flats in a large estate near here has one to control the
hallway lighting.

Bill

[williamwright]

The oldest I've seen still in use was in a posh (deputy's) house
previously owned by a colliery company. When the successors (the NCB)
sold it it was allegedly rewired. However, in the loft I found lengths
of timber about 2½" by 1". They had two grooves running their length (as
if done by router). Each groove had a bare wire in it, with pitch or tar
poured in to fill the groove.

Bill

[ARW]

On 02/07/2022 10:55, Robin wrote:

Roughly - as I have nothing to do with the pricing on jobs.

Probably £200 for the DB and main switch - you buy the main switch
separately to the DB depending if you want 3 or 4 pole switching - plus
mark up.

£650 for the RCBOs - 10kA breaking - plus mark up

£1300 + VAT for labour - I am not sure what apprentices are outed at or
exactly what we are outed at to this company [1]

Plus the cable tray etc.

I am not sure if moving the defibrillator to it's own circuit was part
of the job we did or a separately billed job - but we did that at the
same time.

[1] I know we charge slightly different prices per hour to different
customers when pricing jobs up. Only by £1 or so per hour and other
factors apply.

[ARW]

As per the SWA install.

I have told the apprentice he has installed it upside down

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/d/de/Upsidedown.png

[ARW]

Lou's has induction charging - it helps with the IP rating.

[ARW]

On 01/07/2022 14:02, Scott wrote:
> I saw former neighbours, who have moved house (address not stated for
> legal reasons).
>
> She told me a full rewire is needed. According to the electrician,
> the cable is older than rubber cable [VIR, I assume]. My former
> neighbour describes it as cloth covered. I have asked for a sample to
> see what it is.
>
> Personally speaking, at this point I would have pulled the main fuse.
>
> Despite some Google searching, I cannot find details of the cable used
> before VIR (Vulcanised India Rubber). I seem to remember that paper
> may have been used. Could someone clarify? .

Unless Owain beats me to it then Sir Ambrose Fleming has the answer in
his Electrical Educator books.

I have the 1931 second edition, I am not sure what edition Owain has.

I'll see what my edition says later.

I am off to the pub and whilst I am there I'll have a pint for TMH who
would have been 71 today.

[Brian]

Bob Eager <news...@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Jul 2022 10:48:45 +0000, Brian wrote:
>
>> Are you sure the actual cable - ie the cable between sockets etc- is
>> cloth covered and someone hasn’t used cloth sleeving in the sockets etc?
>>
>> Even finding rubber these days must be unusual, although it does happen.
>> I’ve never heard of anyone finding cloth.
>
> I've seen quite a few flexible cables with cloth covering.
>

On lamps etc yes. This is a different application.

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

Brian Gaff has brought this to us :

> Ha ha. I think there must have been more than one sort of rubber used, as
> some of it even today looks in remarkably good order when removed, while
> other seems to turn to little bits and crumbles when bent. Both came with
> fabric or no fabric. I've seen some of the wire that folk have stripped out

> over the years as I was always on the look out for wire.,

Where the waxed cotton is taken off, at the ends where they terminate,
the rubber tended to dry out and become brittle, the tiny extra bit of
heat from terminals might have also played a part.

> Interestingly when it came time to change our Cooker the wire was actually
> made of aluminium. Not sure why this was done though. Must have been done
> late 60s or so?

Aluminium cable was used when the price of copper shot up, usually a
size larger than the copper equivalent. Trouble was, it was much more
brittle and oxidised. The oxidation in terminals resulted in heat being
generated as the resistance increased. Some were copper coated. On
really large cables (armoured) the conductors were solid, cable lugs
used a grease, to prevent oxidation and heat build up.

[Andrew]

Just tell him to rotate it by 180 degrees and then the writing
will be the correct way up :-)

[SH]

Rotate in which axis? as ARW didn't state if he wanted the text to be at
the front or back :-)

rotating in z axis would have the text the right way up at the FRONT
towards the camera

rotating in x-axis would result in the text being the right way up at
the BACK towards the wall

[Robin]

Thanks again. Strikes me as cheap for what I assume was an urgent job.
But then I'm inured to inner London prices.

[Animal]

On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 18:37:04 UTC+1, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
> Brian Gaff has brought this to us :
> > Ha ha. I think there must have been more than one sort of rubber used, as
> > some of it even today looks in remarkably good order when removed, while
> > other seems to turn to little bits and crumbles when bent. Both came with
> > fabric or no fabric. I've seen some of the wire that folk have stripped out
> > over the years as I was always on the look out for wire.,
>
> Where the waxed cotton is taken off, at the ends where they terminate,
> the rubber tended to dry out and become brittle, the tiny extra bit of
> heat from terminals might have also played a part.

very much. Rubber was rated 60C, it could take far more but didin't last when hot.

[ARW]

On 02/07/2022 22:36, Robin wrote:

>  But then I'm inured to inner London prices.
>

But the big difference is the golf course is a 20 minute 7 mile drive
from the office and has a big free car park. So there is little travel
time or parking to consider.

[Vir Campestris]

On 02/07/2022 17:13, ARW wrote:
> I am off to the pub and whilst I am there I'll have a pint for TMH who
> would have been 71 today.

Err... what... did I miss something?

He was a nice guy last time I swapped messages with him. Which could
have been about the rubber wiring that was in our thatch when we moved in...

Andy

[Robin]

https://groups.google.com/g/uk.d-i-y/c/8yu3zXKcKEc/m/ZrzQmVjmCAAJ

[Vir Campestris]

On 04/07/2022 22:38, Robin wrote:
> On 04/07/2022 22:00, Vir Campestris wrote:
>> On 02/07/2022 17:13, ARW wrote:
>>> I am off to the pub and whilst I am there I'll have a pint for TMH
>>> who would have been 71 today.
>>
>> Err... what... did I miss something?
>>
>> He was a nice guy last time I swapped messages with him. Which could
>> have been about the rubber wiring that was in our thatch when we moved
>> in...
>>
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/uk.d-i-y/c/8yu3zXKcKEc/m/ZrzQmVjmCAAJ
>
>
>
>

Thank you.

My memory is obviously worse than I thought as I commented at the time :(

Andy