Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?

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Honney

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Sep 7, 2011, 6:15:51 PM9/7/11
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As we all know, tithing has always been the cause of debate among
Christians. Some follow the Old Testament (Malachi 3:10), some the New
Testament. How about you? Do you believe that tithing is a mandatory
thing? Are we really robbing God if we don't tithe?

A blessed day to all!

jade...@earthlink.net

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Sep 7, 2011, 9:55:58 PM9/7/11
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Hello Honney, all I know is I have tithed faithfully for years and I have never seen the pressed down running over thing- matter of fact I have been homeless for 3 years, even living in a tent for a while. I have never been able to meet my needs during this time, my clothes have holes in them, my animals are going without the vaccines and medicines they need, I am doing without dental and medical care- I just don't get it. So now I am thinking I have chosen by tithing to live under the law- and being the imperfect sinner I am, I am experiencing the curse. I am still uncertain about all this- but I know the 'testing me in this' of Malachi has been proved wrong. I have heard a Pastor say that most Christians that tithe are not experiencing prosperity, but he says it is because the Malachi scripture covers tithes and offerings- and without the giving of offerings at Penetcost, Passover and Tabernacles we will never see its fulfillment. What do you think? Kathy

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Annie Johnson

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Sep 8, 2011, 12:07:19 AM9/8/11
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Do I tithed yes I do every time i do iam bless when i don't i do feel like iam r

David James

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Sep 8, 2011, 1:40:19 AM9/8/11
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The scripture in Malachi 3: 8-10 was directed to the corrupt priests who failed to honor God and tithe from what they had received. It was not directed to the congregation. Read from chapter 1 to understand the true reason.

From: "jade...@earthlink.net" <jade...@earthlink.net>
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Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?

>
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>visit the blog
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Rob Seever

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Sep 8, 2011, 1:49:02 AM9/8/11
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Right on brother. I believe in the tithe because it is a starting
point. I came out from under the curse when I opened up my wallet.
Giving goes far beyond the tithe. In our country we always look at it
as cash but the Lord looks at our talents also. Who are you serving
for he says you can't serve both.

On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 10:40 PM, David James <sand...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The scripture in Malachi 3: 8-10 was directed to the corrupt priests who
> failed to honor God and tithe from what they had received. It was not
> directed to the congregation. Read from chapter 1 to understand the true
> reason.
> ________________________________

> From: "jadehorse@ earthlink.net" <jade...@earthlink.net>

>>tithe+un...@googlegroups.com


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>>For more options, visit this group at
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Nyaradzai Munatsi

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Sep 8, 2011, 2:57:02 AM9/8/11
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Hie
 
Tithing was mandatory before the coming of Jesus.Nehemia 13.For it was necessary to provide food in the house of the Lord for the Priests(Levites)to do sacrifice activities that brought about the remission of sins.
 
After he died and ressurected,its no longer mandatory.Free will giving is what is now important.
 
But those who tithe are also not wrong.What is wrong is to apply malaki 3:8 on them because this book, was written around 430BC.It is no longer applicable now.It is just like Numbers which tells us how to do animal sacrifices.WE CANT APPLY THAT NOW.It was written during the time of Nehemia,who personally implemeted and saw the bad effects of not tithing as the priests and the singers,each went to his own field deserting the house of God.
 
For an insight and for more scriptures,please read the attachment. 
 
 
Those who tithe are not to be condemned because,one might secretly make a vow with God(Just like JACCOB),having promised God that he will pay a tithe(10%).Not fullfilling the promise will be a sin.
 
This will just be like freewill giving.That is encouraged,to free us from curses and the influence of the devourer.
 
 
Regards
 
Pastor N Munatsi.
 
> Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 22:49:02 -0700

> Subject: Re: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?
TITHING.doc

Nyaradzai Munatsi

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Sep 8, 2011, 5:37:38 AM9/8/11
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Tithing vs Giving.doc
TITHES.doc

sebongile mohapi

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Sep 8, 2011, 3:38:17 AM9/8/11
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Abraham our father in faith also tithed. That is why we Christians Tithe


From: nmun...@hotmail.com
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Subject: RE: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 08:57:02 +0200

Abram Kabelo

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Sep 8, 2011, 8:06:59 AM9/8/11
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Tithe is not something to debate about, it is for us to obey. The bible says " It is holy to the Lord" ( Leviticus 27 verse 30), not only it is holy, it belong to the Lord. If indeed we fear the Lord we were not to judge his word by time,old and new. May God of the bible bless all of us.

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Nyaradzai Munatsi

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Sep 8, 2011, 8:10:55 AM9/8/11
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Why did Jesus teach his apostles to tithe.?Why did the apostles not preach about tithe?Why preach about it now?
 

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Subject: RE: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 09:38:17 +0200

Nyaradzai Munatsi

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Sep 8, 2011, 8:25:53 AM9/8/11
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Why did Jesus not teach his apostles to tithe.?Why did the apostles not preach about tithe?Why preach about it now?
 
Why not reach about free will giving which the apostoles preached about?
 
You want to preach about tithing because you want to find the opportunity to misinterpret malaki 3:8 so that you will scare people with curses for not tithing.
 
If you say OUR FATHER Abraham tithed then read Heb 7:9-12.It says"And as i may so say,Levi also,who receiveth tithes ,payed tithes in Abraham.For he was yet in the loins of his father,when Melchisedec met him....For the priesthood being changed,there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
 
With that paragraph one can also say if we are the children of abraham by faith,we did pay the tithe when abraham paid it,just as per Heb 7:9.The issue of tithes has much to do about who is the new priest.The new covenant specifies that the new priest is now Jesus Christ,and he does not need tithes.It is the old priests(levi/Aaron)who wanted tithes.Read Heb:7 and 8.
 
By paying tithes to the new priesthood of Jesus,you are in fact putting old wine in new wineskins.New covenant for the new priesthood,and old covenant for the old priesthood.

Abram Kabelo

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Sep 8, 2011, 8:29:56 AM9/8/11
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Excuse me, 
A.K.Ntsimane

Mzee Dingani (MJ)

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Sep 8, 2011, 8:33:28 AM9/8/11
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It is important for every Christian to search the scriptures to see if what is being taught is so-check the brothers of Berea with Paul...Acts 17...

The important perspective to understand this concept, is to first try and find the period contextually, that is, what is the significance of differentiating between the Old Testament and New Testament; between the Mosaic Law and the New Covenant. The other point is to check what was the purpose of tithes-find the types of tithes (hint there is about 3 types of Maser)-contrast them with the nowadays method-you’d find that there was a currency then but they never used it for tithing...(why then did we modify)-they strictly did not use money(cumin;dill in Mat 23)

If during the birth of the church-the apostles were not being given tithes(fact),but instead people were encouraged to give willingly –and the churchthen, equally divide the contributions according to ones needs...

 

Yes Paul does teach about the rights of the Apostles-but not indirectly imploring for people to comply with the law of tithing .An interesting part is to read how did Christ fulfil the Law-for He is our high priest now, who with His own blood made an ultimate offering for once ,for us all...(Try and find how some of the tithes were being used-sacrifices)

 

 

 

From: ti...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ti...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Abram Kabelo
Sent: 08 September 2011 02:07 PM
To: ti...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?

 

Tithe is not something to debate about, it is for us to obey. The bible says " It is holy to the Lord" ( Leviticus 27 verse 30), not only it is holy, it belong to the Lord. If indeed we fear the Lord we were not to judge his word by time,old and new. May God of the bible bless all of us.



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Abram Kabelo

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Sep 8, 2011, 8:45:47 AM9/8/11
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Put your statement clear, are you guys saying we christian we suppose not to tithe. I really want to understand.  

Nyaradzai Munatsi

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Sep 8, 2011, 10:45:43 AM9/8/11
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We are not saying dont tithe or you must tithe.What we are saying is Tithing is no longer a law that,it MUST be done.
 
If you are freely paying a tenth of your salary,honestly knowing that there is no scripture that is forcing you to pay it,knowing that even if you dont pay that 10% you are not cursed,its ok.
 
The problem that is pushing people away from God is the wrong intrepretation of scriptures,to say if  Lev 2  says we must burn a bull without blemish then we must do it now because it is written in the bible.
 
There are preachers out there who are preaching that mal 3:8-10 says you are robbing God by not tithing,then the scripture is applying to us bornagain christians.
 
Thats putting a yoke on the people's necks which our Lord Jesus did not even carry.
 
The apostles preached about freewill giving and not tithing.
 
Jesus never tithed.He never told his followers to tithe.He never tell them to preach tithes.
 
So go through the attached documents to get a thorough analysis with supporting scriptures about tithes.
 
 
 

 

Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 13:45:47 +0100

Subject: Re: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?
TITHES.doc
Tithing vs Giving.doc

jade...@earthlink.net

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Sep 8, 2011, 11:45:09 AM9/8/11
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Thank you all for the information, it is clear to me now that tithing is an option not a law, and if I do not tithe I am not cursed automatically. I don't know if any of you are aware but many of the very respected Christian preachers who have television networks and programs regularly use the 'will you rob God' scripture in their efforts to collect money. Being un-churched they have had a huge impact on my understanding, but now I see clearly that we are free of this law- and I am not under an obligiation to tithe. Thank you very much. Kathy

Nyaradzai Munatsi

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Sep 8, 2011, 12:23:08 PM9/8/11
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HIE KATY
 
I am happy that you understood the concept.But i want you not to do like what many people do.That after they realised how they were being croocked,they stop giving altogether.Thats wrong.By giving you become blessed.God wants a cheerful giver.
 
You can give to those in need,even those whom you dont even know.The word of God promotes giving to someone who can not afford paying back,and giving in secret,not to be seen by people.
 
If you do that ,the word of God says,you will never be in need.You will be thoroughly blessed.
 
You can give to support the work of God,but all your giving must be from your heart,knowing you came with nothing,you got everything from God,when you die you will go with nothing.
 
May the Lord almighty remove the guilty that you were feeling in your heart due to the unavoidable skips on the forced-tithe that was being imposed on you.
 
Now you will realise that the devil will be more afraid of you than ever.
 
 
Please take your time to read the attached documents and especially the supporting scriptures.
 
 
Help others who are still being tortured by the cursing verse when Jesus plainly says in John3,anyone who received Jesus is not cursed...
 
 
The more they skip to tithe ,the more they feel unsecure,and the more they are vulnerable to demonic attack.
 
But with this truth,there is no more skipping.Because there is nothing to be paid in tithes but in free will giving.
 
If you decides to give a tithe or more than a tithe,let it be all from your heart not according to any law.
 
 
May the almighy God bless you.
 
 
Pastor N Munatsi.
0027848278840
South Africa.
 

Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 08:45:09 -0700
From: jade...@earthlink.net
TITHES.doc
Tithing vs Giving.doc

jade...@earthlink.net

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Sep 8, 2011, 2:13:31 PM9/8/11
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Hello Nyaradzai, I have never stopped giving to God, and really don't want to stop, but I do enjoy realizing that it is not an obligation. But please don't say that when you give that God automatically blesses you- because that is not always the case, and that is what finally shook me enough to break the yoke of Malachi- to realize that I had put myself under the law- which none of us can fulfill.

God has kept me on a 40 wilderness trip- and has rooted me up regularly, I have never really experienced prosperity, and never have had a secure home- which has been extremely painful to me. It is still a challenge now to allow myself to think that God loves me personally, all those promises that the pastors love to quote from the Bible, do not find manifestation in my life- instead I have been in exile for many years- a wanderer and outcast, like the diaspora. It sounds so dramatic, but it is really just dismal, and I struggle everyday to keep faith. But the Malachi teaching that the pastors love to fill us with has always been a source of real pain and discouragement for me- as I gave and gave my tithes, and yes offerings too even while I was living in a tent, without enough money for bills and food, and 'the prove me in this' part of the scripture-' windows of heaven' opening for me just never happened- so I would think it was me- I was sinful and unloveable- unworthy of consideration, because I kept hearing testimonies of people who began to tithe and like magic their lives came into order and prosperity and they had a way to live. That is what really hurt to realize that I did not ever have a testimony. I thought for years that maybe it is just a delay, that God's plan for me is for later- so I kept on tithing year after year. But I am 61 now and it is time I grew up- it is time to accept the 'tithing' rule as a fairy tale that preachers tell us so that we will support their ministries. And so I will now give when God gives me the resources to do so- that is scriptural also, that he provides the seed for the sower- and my seed bag is full of holes right now. If the good Lord wants me to give then he will provide me with the resource to give out of. I am just sorry I was so guilible for so long. Kathy

joseph donkoh

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Sep 8, 2011, 3:23:14 PM9/8/11
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From: Nyaradzai Munatsi <nmun...@hotmail.com>
To: ti...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2011, 16:23
Subject: RE: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?

HIE KATY
 
I am happy that you understood the concept.But i want you not to do like what many people do.That after they realised how they were being croocked,they stop giving altogether.Thats wrong.By giving you become blessed.God wants a cheerful giver.
 
You can give to those in need,even those whom you dont even know.The word of God promotes giving to someone who can not afford paying back,and giving in secret,not to be seen by people.
 
If you do that ,the word of God says,you will never be in need.You will be thoroughly blessed.
 
You can give to support the work of God,but all your giving must be from your heart,knowing you came with nothing,you got everything from God,when you die you will go with nothing.
 
May the Lord almighty remove the guilty that you were feeling in your heart due to the unavoidable skips on the forced-tithe that was being imposed on you.
 
Now you will realise that the devil will be more afraid of you than ever.
 
 
Please take your time to read the attached documents and especially the supporting scriptures.
 
 
Help others who are still being tortured by the cursing verse when Jesus plainly says in John3,anyone who received Jesus is not cursed...
 
 
The more they skip to tithe ,the more they feel unsecure,and the more they are vulnerable to demonic attack.
 
But with this truth,there is no more skipping.Because there is nothing to be paid in tithes but in free will giving.
 
If you decides to give a tithe or more than a tithe,let it be all from your heart not according to any law.
 
 
May the almighy God bless you.
 
 
Pastor N Munatsi.
0027848278840
South Africa.
 
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 08:45:09 -0700
From: jade...@earthlink.net
To: ti...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?

Thank you all for the information, it is clear to me now that tithing is an option not a law, and if I do not tithe I am not cursed automatically. I don't know if any of you are aware but many of the very respected Christian preachers who have television networks and programs regularly use the 'will you rob God' scripture in their efforts to collect money. Being un-churched they have had a huge impact on my understanding, but now I see clearly that we are free of this law- and I am not under an obligiation to tithe. Thank you very much. Kathy
-----Original Message-----
From: Nyaradzai Munatsi
Sent: Sep 8, 2011 7:45 AM
To: ti...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?

We are not saying dont tithe or you must tithe.What we are saying is Tithing is no longer a law that,it MUST be done.
 
If you are freely paying a tenth of your salary,honestly knowing that there is no scripture that is forcing you to pay it,knowing that even if you dont pay that 10% you are not cursed,its ok.
 
The problem that is pushing people away from God is the wrong intrepretation of scriptures,to say if  Lev 2  says we must burn a bull without blemish then we must do it now because it is written in the bible.
 
There are preachers out there who are preaching that mal 3:8-10 says you are robbing God by not tithing,then the scripture is applying to us bornagain christians.
 
Thats putting a yoke on the people's necks which our Lord Jesus did not even carry.
 
The apostles preached about freewill giving and not tithing.
 
Jesus never tithed.He never told his followers to tithe.He never tell them to preach tithes.
 
So go through the attached documents to get a thorough analysis with supporting scriptures about tithes.
 
 
 

 


thanks for your piece.
acts 10 ter
acts chapt 10 talks a lot about giving and not tithe.
the widow's mite plz
philipians 4
the church was established by peter, paul etc. which of tthem talked about tithe?
 
 
 

solomon

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Sep 8, 2011, 9:44:40 PM9/8/11
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Those that Tithe, because they fear Malachi verses and the curse. The Lord did not die on the cross, and forgot to also nailed that curse to the cross. In the NT, there is no where said, Christian please tithe or must tithe. Instead it is give as a cheerful giver. Tithe dis-regard you are cheerful or not, you must give. Once you decided to follow it, you need to abide to it, else the curse will come. I urge those tither to think carefully. Tithing dis-regard the church is very rich or very poor. Cheerful giving will be holy spirit motivated giving to the REAL needy and poor.
Remember --Mathew--21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Proverbs22-16 One who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth
   and one who gives gifts to the rich—both come to poverty.

Proverbs 28:27
Those who give to the poor will lack nothing, but those who close their eyes to them receive many curses.
Luke 12:33
Sell what you possess and give donations to the poor; provide yourselves with purses and handbags that do not grow old, an unfailing and inexhaustible treasure in the heavens, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
2 Corinthians 9:9
As it is written, He [the benevolent person] scatters abroad; He gives to the poor; His deeds of justice and goodness and kindness and benevolence will go on and endure forever!

 

That is real giving, tithing is pale is comparison.




From: Nyaradzai Munatsi <nmun...@hotmail.com>
To: ti...@googlegroups.com; robseever...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2011 17:37:38
Subject: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] Find correct attachment.Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?

Rebecca Brown

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Sep 10, 2011, 10:55:11 PM9/10/11
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In the old testament tithing, which is ten percent, was mandatory,
though it did not consist of money. It was provision for the Levitical
priesthood. Hebrews 7:12 tells us - For the priesthood being changed,
there is made of necessity a change also of the law. In the New
Testament all those who are born again are of the priesthood of God,
not Levites alone. It is a different priesthood and a different law.
Now we are to present (Rom. 12:1) our bodies a living sacrifice unto
God; we are to give ourselves completely to Him, not a percentage that
is less than %100. All that we are and all that we have is to be His.
That is why it is important that we give as we purpose in our hearts
and that our hearts belong totally to Him. (2 Cor. 9:7). If all who
are born again are of the priesthood of God today, who would tithe to
who? There is to be no hierarchy. That is also why it is important
that we walk in the Spirit of God and let Him guide us in everything.
Jesus defeated the devourer for our sakes at Calvary. he is no longer
defeated because of any works which we can do. It's time for people to
stop thinking that God will defeat Satan 'if' they do one [articular
work, that is less than receiving Jesus alone and His work for us at
Calvary. Satan knows he is already defeated but he wants to keep us in
bondage to dead works that blind us from seeing the fullness of what
Jesus has already accomplished. If a person thinks the devourer was
defeated when they opened their wallet, then they are do not realize
all that Christ has done. All my money belongs to the Lord, but He
wants to have my ear; my attention and my obedience one moment at a
time. Consider reading the blog "Money Changers in the Temple" for an
indepth study on this subject and a look at hundreds of scriptures.
The truth sets us free! http://www.moneychangersinthetemple.blog...

Nyaradzai Munatsi

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Sep 12, 2011, 3:00:18 AM9/12/11
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Hie KATY
 
I feel sorry for youwhen i read your story.You have been promised according to malaki and have been tithing but your dreams could not come true.You have paid offerings and you also feel that windows of heaven did not open to you.Thats sad.
 
You wanted a shelter,but you could not get one.You have been an exile for many years..Thats sad too.
 
Firstly,let me tell you something,the principle of giving and receiving is true and is practical.But the word of God said,He wants a cheerful giver without being forced or compelled to do so.Let it be from your heart.
 
Was your giving cheerful?Was it from your heart?
 
Secondly,have you ever counted your blessings?From what you told me i picked up that you are 61 years.Long age is a blessing on its own.You are still alive and are therefore still capable of doing a lot.
 
Thirdly,let me ask you something,do you have a proffession,the source of revenue?If not what is the work of your hands that you want the LORD to bless you?If you read the parable of talents(Mathew 25:15-20) where 3 people were given talents by their master,the other one was given five,the other one was given two and the other one was given one.These people had to invest these talents and give back when they are many.If you read in the word of God it is clear that the one who did not do anything to increase his investment remained with nothing.Even the little that he had was taken away from him.
 
Having a chosen proffession and praying that God blesses the work of your hands is a very fundamental step to make ends meet.Even if your business is small,as you give and pray,you find that you will reap more than what you can imagine.
 
Anyway,i still insists that the word of God is true when the word says try me and see if the windows of heaven will not open.
 
Free will giving yes,but not to forced tithe.
 
 
Regards
 
 
Pastor Munatsi. 
 

 

Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 11:13:31 -0700

jade...@earthlink.net

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Sep 12, 2011, 1:18:58 PM9/12/11
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Dear Pastor Munatsi, thank you for your effort to help me understand our Lord. I know my situation does seem odd- I love the Lord, but after all these years I have to say the 'prove me in this' does not apply to Christians- or I should say 'not to all Christians'- because if you listen to the testimony's on television you would think that every person who tithes has an amazing story of provision, protection and productivetity. It is just those testimony's that push me over the edge- when you keep hearing how God miraculously provides bountifully for his children who tithe and you are in dire straits, it makes you question- am I even God's child? Why does He not provide for me? And it is the contrast, that of course is compounded over the years, that causes me such hurt and dejection. I have asked God to show me someone like me- who has a life experience like me- they must be out there- right? But even those who have bad experiences - those appear to be only for a season- and then the Lord leads them into their promised land. Then I think- well maybe I am a 'bad tree' whose fruit falls to ground and rots. And so it goes in my head.

 

In 1981 I fasted for 5 days to seek God's will for my life. It may not seem like a long fast, but I have hypoglycemia (chronic low blood sugar) so it was very difficult and maybe dangerous. The Lord gave me a Rhema: Jer. 29:10-14. Of course I did not understand it then, but over the years I have come to understand it- I was exiled for past sins (involved in occult and sexually promiscious), that even though you become born again that does not automatically save you from paying for your crimes. The versus 10-13 I have seen become fulfilled, but the 14th? I am still waiting.

 

In answer to your questions:

1- It was my understanding that tithing was required, but I was cheerful in giving my tithe. It took 7 years of continuous tithing for it to dawn on me that I was not receiving the promise and benefits that everyone else experienced- I hit the wall at that time- left off tithing for several years. But then returned to it. I have also given of time and other resources when I was urged by the Holy Spirit.

2- yes, but difficult- I see God's hand sometimes in my life- or think I do, but I am always disappointed when a preceived blessing turns into a curse instead. Example- at 40 years old after years of prayer and trying to earn enough I was able to purchase a modest home- I was sure it was God's doing and He had finally given me the desire of my heart- which was to have a home. Two months later I lost my job- the company was taken over and they put new management in place and my former boss took my job and laid me off. There was a recession at the time  and I could not find work for 6 months, finally I was able to find a position 250 miles away, and had to take it to save the home. I had to stay at the job site during the week and commute 4 hours on Friday to get home for the weekend- rising at 3 am on Monday morning to drive back to work. It saved the house momentarily, but my career development that was promised in the hiring process was not fulfilled, and 1 1/2 years later I found a job near my home and left. However, that job turned out to be fraudulent and I found another several months later. All this time my mortgage was behind, caught up, behind again, caught up, behind again- all enjoyment and the security I had thought was mine turned into enslavement to keep a house I seldom got to enjoy. Four years later the new company was bought out and I was removed by the new management- I went into business for myself, and that same new boss went behind the scenes to my clients and told them I was dishonest and they stopped giving me contracts. I went under and lost my home. Someone I knew for several years and had done business with had been offering me a job in California (3500 miles away), she kept at it- promising me atleast a year's steady employment, if I would come out and help her get her equine registry office up and running. After losing the home and with no sign of other work I accepted her offer. I borrowed money to move from friends and went out to take the job. Two weeks into the job she fired me- it turned out I was her second choice, and she had recruited 2 of us continually, and she made the promises to me when the other refused. But later the other person decided she would take the job anyway and then with not so much as a final paycheck I was out in the street. I had to go to the labor board to get my paycheck. I can keep going on from horror to horrror- 'storm tossed and not comforted'- another rhema that I got.

3- my profession has been the construction industry, entered in 1979 as a carpenter's apprentice, graduated a journeyman (second in a class of 60) in 1985. Construction sales in 1987, Project Manager in 1990-1992, Insurance Loss project manager for another company 1994-1997, own business 1997-1998, then stint into horse industry in CA, back to carpenter for 1 1/2, then Building Inspector 2000-2005. Sounds okay right? You can see I have skills, I was able to turn my carpenter experience into management and professional positions. But that is only a portion of the story.

 I was one of the first women to enter the trade unions in the US. I was totally unprepared for the rage I encountered. Construction is a brutal industry in its best days- the workers unless unionized have no beneifts or job security- when the job is done so are you. But I was part of a huge social experiment where women were being moved into jobs that had traditionally been held by men only and I was at the front lines. Being fairly young at the time I was unaware of what I was stepping into.  And the experience was pretty violent, cursing, crude and lewd illustration of myself preforming fantastic sexual acts were posted on the latrine wall, my tools were stolen, I was 'accidently' pushed off staging and work areas, I was threatened and harassed continually. Eventually there were even attempts on my life (truck blown up with me in it, heavy tools accidently dropped on me when climbing down a ladder, crane accidents). God must of preserved my life for something! So when I achieved journeyman status- that is completed my education, I moved to other construction jobs as well as I could. My career has been characterized by sudden stops, loss of income and benefits, so very unstable and hard to prosper in, every time I seem to be getting caught up and on the verge of prosperity, I lose my job or income- usually through someone I work with or work for, somehow changing the rules and fixing it behind the scenes so that I am blamed for something. However even with the resistance to my presence on a job, no one has successfully malaigned my job performance as it is usually well above average. So you see, I have God given skills but have lacked the covering to succeed or prosper.

 

I am retired now (a forced political retirement) and am on a fixed income trying to re-invent myself in the horse breeding industry. I have had a website online since 2003 and occasionally have been able to sell a horse, but since 2005 I have not been able to sell any- the horse industry is in a terrible recession. I am able to publish articles occassionaly in trade journals but they never pay- so it is just a case of paying my dues to establish a name. So here I am stuck with many mouths to feed, and no way to sell them. It is the same basic frame as I am always in- enslaved and empovished, having to spend every cent I have just to feed the livestock, I would shoot them all and burying them- but you can not do that here and it costs @ $500 to put down and dispose of a horse carcess. Not that I want to do this, but to head off you saying why not just get out of it? Right now you can not literally give away a horse. People are abandoning them but I can't and won't do that. And all the while I tithe and give offerings and love the Lord and study to show myself approved.

 Did I mention I have written a book- from 2008 until now and it is ready for publication- and here again I stepped out on faith and researched and wrote it, expecting and believing God to provide a way for me to raise the small amount for publishing when it is done- that is His promise, that He will make a way- He gives us abilities and our gift will make our way- that is what I have been taught. Prosperity comes from God, the Word is clear on this- I have 4 horses up for sale, they are excellent horses, God is who controls these things- and year after year no sale. No provision in sight. I just put one foot in front of the other- one day at a time. I will stop now, I could go on and tell how I married at 51 to a 'great guy', but who wouldn't work once we married, how he inherited a property and how he lost it by not working, how I finally left him after 10 years and miracle of miracle -he decided to get a job then. No living children. Working off my rent at a farm. Just holding on by a thread. Wondering all the while how did I miss it? Why am I not prospering?

 

You don't have to feel sorry for me, but if you have a reason why all my efforts fail to bring in a harvest, or why the Lord won't bless the work of my hands or if you know of other people who are faithful to the Lord, but are living under the curse it would make me feel better.

Rebecca Brown

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Sep 12, 2011, 9:39:55 PM9/12/11
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Hi Katy, Sounds like you have been through an awful lot. I have been
thinking about the things you said about your life, and I really
believe the question of tithing has little to do with the
circumstances of your life. You see, when tithing was instituted in
the Old Testament, under the Law of Moses, it, along with all of the
law, was given to a people who did not yet have a Savior. THey did not
have access to the Holy Spirit living inside of them. So God gave them
a law that would give them a glimpse of his own opinion by the things
He required and the punishment for disobedience. He gave specific
instructions for the care of his ministers of the work of sacrifices
etc. Then after Jesus came and brought redemption and the forgiveness
of sins, sent His Spirit to dwell in his children he set in order a
better way. Now you have never needed any sort of works that would
guarantee you financial blessing or success. What we all need now, is
not to DO a certain deed, but to walk in the Spirit of God and in His
plan for our lives, to know victory and satisfaction. You have spoken
about your career choices, how you were treated out there in a mans
world, where probably more rugged men work with wood and in dust, day
after day and of the many troubles that beset you. My husband was a
carpenter and I have a good idea of what that can involve. I am not
saying that women should not be able to work with wood, but the
reality is what it is. you saw first hand what it is like out there.
There is one thing I have not heard you mention and that is that you
began by focusing on Jesus himself and waiting to see what He wanted
you to do with your life, other than the tithing thing. Many people
look either to preachers, or even to scriptures to see what is right
and wrong and what God requires of them, in an effort to make sure
they are okay with him, not doing something wrong or sinning and then
look for His blessings. Seems logical. But it is only when we are
doing HIS will, when he is in us and His words are abiding in us, or
should I better say, when we are walking in the path He has shined His
light on, that we can expect His approval and help in our endeavours.
We tend to think out, plan and come up with our own choices; the
things that either we greatly desire, for reasons of our own, or what
we think will work out best, then we pray for God's help. Instead we
should seek Him, for the plan HE has for us, walk in His Spirit and
expect His help. Rather than Him help us with our plans, we should
agree with His plans, obey and let Him make it work. You spoke of
marriage to a man who would not work. Did you wait to hear from the
Lord concerning marry this man before doing so? If the answer is yes,
then I would question whether you were in agreement with the Word of
God in divorcing on such grounds. If on the other hand you did not,
then it is no surprise that things did not go well. We have all made
mistakes and I do not mean this in condemnation. I am only saying that
success of any kind, must be considered success, only when the will of
God is being done. if we are in His will and we face hard times, we
can count on Him for strength to make it through, comfort in the
middle of it all, and His love to keep us and warm our hearts. You can
give tithes till dooms day, give free will offerings weekly and in big
amounts, but still not be giving what God is wanting. Romans 12:1 +2
says " I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that
ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God,
which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this
world: but be ye transformed by the RENEWING

Rebecca Brown

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Sep 12, 2011, 9:49:09 PM9/12/11
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of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and
perfect, WILL OF GOD. Give Jesus your thoughts, your attention, your
heart and seek to see HIm and to listen to Him above all else. He is
the Word of God, so spend time in His Word, not to figure out what to
do, but to get to know HIM better. Grow closer to Him than all else.
All of these things you do to earn an living and to get ahead are time
consuming and mind consuming. But what you need is to be consummed
with Jesus himself. He can make water flow and flowers bloom in a
desert. He can meet your nutritional needs when you have only bread to
eat. He can feed you in a wilderness. He can hold you close when you
are alone. He can give you peace and satisfaction when you own no
earthly thing. Give Him all of you and give him your attention; your
ear. If He wants you to give money or any other thing, at any time, He
can whisper that into your ear, if you are listening. And if He should
even say, "give all that you have" you needn't be afraid. You will
have Him and He is enough.

jade...@earthlink.net

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Sep 12, 2011, 11:29:40 PM9/12/11
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Hello Rebecca, thanks for your input, but as far as I was able to decern the will of God at that time I was indeed where he wanted me to be. I certainly would have done something else, and I did seek Him. I used to carry scriptures or psalms in my jeans pocket that I had received in my morning devotions and during the day I would ease it out of my pocket to read - it helped especially when I was scared which was often. I make stupid mistakes every day and I am sure some of the choices I made are not what the Lord had in mind- I just did the best I could. But I have to say that most of the Christians out there have made mistakes in interrupting the will of God in their lives, and have experienced failure and opposition and poverty, but I really would like to hear about someone else who has had similar experiences because none of this explains the 30 plus years of loss and deprevation- none of it. Am I a worse sinner than others- no I am not. I am pretty clear on the tithing thing now, but just remembering some of these experiences in order to answer Pastors questions has put me into a deep depression today- I usually try not to think about the scale of this and the horror of my existence- I just can't live if I keep on remembering, and I see nothing that makes it better for me, just makes me sad that there was never a safe place for me. I know you are trying to be helpful and I appreciate your candidness, but I didn't sin more than others or not pray or not ask God to direct me. And even if I did- would the God you know and love punish me for decades? Isn't the Holy Spirit able to lead us if we seek God? Kathy

Rebecca Brown

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Sep 13, 2011, 1:08:52 AM9/13/11
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Katy I am not suggesting that you sinned more than others. I have
never experienced what you have but I have faced great sorrow, I was
married before I was 18 to the man God created for me. He was ahead of
his age, at age 20, already a self employed carpenter, a man of the
Word and the one who showed me more about the love of God than anyone
I ever knew even to this day. We were married 18 1/2 years, had five
children, two were born at home, with their daddy delivering. We home
schooled them. Dwight and I sang together. He is the only man I have
ever been with. One day in the spring of 1989, we were coming home
from shopping. All seven of us were in the car, when a drunk man left
his lane and drove into us. My husband died. my 4 i/2 year old little
daughter died and the man who ran into us died. At that point in my
life I did not need any man's religion. i needed a real God who could
literally carry me and do it for me. I was a devoted Christian,still I
was in the valley of the shadow of death. My little girl had been a
miracle child who I had been told might be retarded, but who God had
healed. Now she was gone. my husband, the other half of who i was, was
gone. There was a time I thought of suicide, but very shortly. And I
have learned that when we are vulnerable, even if it be because of
sorrow that is justified, that Satan comes along to add his own even
more depressing words to our minds. WHat happened was real. They were
gone. I had a right and a reason to sorrow. But the Lord kept bringing
the words of scripture to me that say His strength (God's) is made
perfect in weakness. When I am weak, He is strong for and in me. It is
okay to be weak, because then I can stop trying to fix it and let Him
do it for me. What else could I do except to despair? If during the
darkest times we can remember that Christ is there and that we are in
His hands, (if indeed we have put ourselves there), then we have
reason to smile. There is an old song I used to sing that says "God
walks the dark hills" He is there with us and will carry us if we let
Him. If you could look back and see that He was there and did not let
you be destroyed, you can be thankful. I have been through many very
hard times. At one point, after my kids were older the enemy came in
like a flood trying to destroy us and I felt like He was trying to
make me lose my mind. Thank God I learned to take authority over the
enemy and to lean on God. God showed me how I had feared losing my
children and the Bible says 1 John 4:18 ... fear hath torment. I began
to see that my fear had given the enemy permission to do what he had
done, because I had believed it could be. I had faith in the thing I
feared or I would not have feared. As Jesus had said to the blind men
- Matthew 9:29...According to your faith be it unto you. And so it
had been. But rather than be condemned, I was thankful to God for
showing me my fear so I could give it to Him and He could heal me. I
have suffered but I have also seen many miracles, still I know I need
to practice all the more, being aware of the Lord and keeping my mind
on Him. Cares of this world, choke out the Word. (Matt. 13:22) No
matter how good we try to live, it is easy to let this happen. It is
more important to focus on Jesus, being close to him and listening to
his still small voice than it is to try and figure everything out. I
want to encourage you not to let Satan get you down over the past or
the future and certainly not the present. Jesus wants our attention.
Give him the difficulties and tell Him you are trusting Him to work
them out, to get rid of them or to give you peace, security and
provision in the midst of them. In the name of Jesus begin to take
authority over the enemy and forbid him to have his way in your life.
DO not give him an inch. James 4:7+8 Submit yourselves therefore to
God. RESIST the devil, and he will FLEE from you. 8 DRAW NIGH to God,
and he WILL draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; purify
your hearts, ye double minded. Do not worry or fret about the past.
Think of it only if God is showing you something for a better future,
or if there is anything to repent of.First we let Him cleanse us and
submit to Him, then He will work on our behalf. I ask his forgiveness
often. It is a habit of mine, because I want to stay pure, holy, and
to be ready when He comes or I go to Him. All have sinned, yet we
still need to remind each other to always submit totally to God, even
daily and moment by moment. The devil loves getting us depressed. But
we have the power in Jesus name to kick him and his voice out of our
lives. You don't know what you are going to do with your horses you
say, and maybe you don't know how you are going to make all ends meet.
But God knows. He can show you what to do, or simply provide your
needs. Heb. 13:5 ... be content with such things as ye have: for he
hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. If you have
shelter, some food in your stomach, you then have a place to sit back
in the presence of the Lord and enjoy His company, His love and
affection and a place from which to watch Him work on your behalf. I
am presently unemployed. I worked 3 years for Head Start, then my son
began talking about having me move closer to my kids. So I told the
director of this possibility, but that if it were to happen I would
tell her. She said she would pray for me. Then evidently she forgot or
misunderstood and thinking i was leaving, she replaced me. My
unemployment is only $194 per week. I do not know what is ahead, but
I know i will go there in the arms of Jesus and I will have a
testimony of his love and care. Lift your head and begin to praise and
thank the Lord for all he has done for you, all he wants to do for
you, all he will do for you and ask him to stop the enemy from
defeating you, then begin praising him that he is going to do that
too! Remember that in all of your troubles you were not allowed to
die. You are still here and can still see God work in your life. He
still can do great things in you! Believe him to do miracles in your
life. I think one of the greatest miracles is when we have little of
this worlds goods, but still have contentment, peace of mind and
heart, and the joy of the Lord, plus the pleasure of His sweet
company! I now love seeing how God works things out and right on time
in ways I couldn't have seen coming. This is the day to be thankful!
This is the day to believe. This is the day to NOT give the enemy any
place in your life or any credit. This is the day to see ans
acknowledge God in every part of your life and to praise him in faith
. Romans 5:1-6 Therefore being justified by FAITH, we have PEACE with
God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By who we also have access BY FAITH
into his grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in HOPE of the glory of
God. And not only so, BUT WE GLORY IN TRIBULATIONS also: knowing that
tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience, and
experience, HOPE: And HOPE MAKETH NOT ASHAMED; because the LOVE OF GOD
is she abroad in our hearts by the HOLY GHOSt which is given unto us.
For when we were YET WITHOUT STRENGTH, in due time Christ died for the
ungodly.

Rebecca Brown

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Sep 13, 2011, 1:40:11 AM9/13/11
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PS I want to add that the Lord reminded me that Dwight and my little
girl (named Hope) are only asleep in Jesus. They are not just a part
of my past but a part of my future; my forever! Praise God! 1 Cor.
15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men
most miserable.

Nyaradzai Munatsi

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Sep 13, 2011, 5:57:00 AM9/13/11
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Hie
 
Uum Kathy,your encounters were so unbearable.I read Rabbeca's contribution,she too faced real predicaments that if you are not strong in the faith you would say 'the Lord has rejected me'
 
I need to comment on both issues.
 
The two cases brought by you two people(Rabbeca and Kathy are different and yet the same)
 
 
The accident that claimed Rebecca's husband and other children was a devilish attack on the people of God.To me it resembles what happened to Job.It did not happen because Jod sinned,but God allowed it to happen anyway for the reasons bestly known to him.
One can even ask to say'why did God allow stephen to be stoned to death.'In the scriptures you see the word of God saying stephen also did not pray for protection,but he said'God in your hands i lay my spirit'.He confirmed where he was going by stating that 'i could see the heavens open,and the son of man seated on the right hand of God'.It explains that THERE ARE THINGS WHICH WE CAN NOT UNDERSTAND HERE UNLESS IF THE LORD OPENS IT TO US'.Why God would let the rightious die sometimes in scaring circumstances,why God would want a very busy and instrumental person in the Gospel like ELIJA to come to heaven with a pillar of fire on a chariot of heavenly horses.It just explains why it happens.HE HAS USE OF HIS RIGHTIOUS PEOPLE THERE IN HEAVEN.If your loved one is instrumental to God,its a treasure to die in Christ.It is a pain yes,but the more you understand scriptures the more you know we dont belong here.Philipans 3:20(We are citizens of Heaven).So you can not be sad if your husband was only going home where he belongs.
 
But the death through accidents is usually caused by the devil.What we call an attack.
 
Sorry for the statement that i am about to write it might not go well with you(Rabecca):THE WORD of God says we must pray without ceasing.The moment you relax a bit,the devil can steal from you sametime.I am not implying that you had relaxed a bit,but i am saying sometimes it happens...
 
 
Secondly,on your issue Kathy.As i am currently writing,i am feeling the presence of the Lord in my body and am stopping here and there to pray.In other words i seem to be touching on the sensitive part of the enemy(devil) and as the enemy shrieks in worry and pain,the Lord Jesus is protecting me,then i feel His presence.
 
Your predicament is typical of a curse.What ever you do seem to be bound by a curse.This can be as a result of your past relationship with the devil when you were in ocult and in promiscuity.Ocult involve selling your soul to the devil.Technically you will be practically a candidate of hell,and thus you experience real hell on earth.Read 1 John 5:17-19.The devil will not touch the children of God...,meaning to say the devil can only touch his(devil )own children,not of God.Normally your activities in Ocult involve insulting the Holyspirit and insulting God and Worshiping the devil.Now it depends on how you joined.Whether you were tricked into joining or else it was explained nicely upon joining,how it works(while you were still sober and unpossesed) and you made your own decision to join.If you were tricked,and then later realised that you have joined what you did not comprehend and then you left,your issue is understandable.
 
But if everything was clear and well decided,there is a risk that your sins might fall within the unforgivable sins mentioned by Jesus.But since he is our only hope,just be baptised and seek his mercy from the bottom of your heart.The word of God says even if your sins are as crimson red,they will be made as clean and as white as snow.
 
You know what happened.How did you join ocult activities and for what benefit?
 
Ocult things need real proper deliverance.The way you explain seems to indicate that,those satanic demons are the ones which are still torturing and haunting you.If you are not careful,you might still be in the ocult field without yourself knowing it.The activities of tampering with the soul are very dangerous in that God 's promises about your life are all on your soul.The devil will take everything.The good thing about our Lord is that he says in his word(Joel) that he will restore everything stolen by the devil,when you give yourself to God.
 
MAY YOU PLEASE READ THIS.IT IS A PRAYER.TRUST THAT THE LORD IS HEARING YOU AS YOU PRAY.LET IT COME FROM YOUR HEART.ITS A PRAYER OF DELIVERANCE FROM DEMONIC BONDAGE.
 
"LORD JESUS,THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD,I THANK YOU THAT YOU ARE MY LORD.I KNOW THAT YOU ARE MERCIFUL.FATHER I BEG FOR YOUR MERCY.FORGIVE ME.I SINNED BEFORE YOU.MAY YOU WASH ME BY YOUR BLOOD.WASH MY WHOLE BODY AND I WILL BE CLEAN.RESTORE WHAT IS MEANT FOR ME IN THIS LIFE.IN THE NAME OF YOU MY LORD JESUS CHRIST,I SUBMIT MYSELF BEFORE YOU.YOU KNOW MY PAST AND I REGRET HAVING DONE WHAT I DID(you mention what you did).I BELIEVE THROUGH YOU MY LORD JESUS I WILL BE RESTORED.I DO ACCEPT YOU AS MY LORD AND SAVIOUR.YOU DIED ON THE CROSS,YOU WERE BURIED BUT YOU AROSE ON THE THIRD DAY,YOU ASCENDED TO HEAVEN,YOU ARE SEATED ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.I PRAY FOR DELIVERANCE FROM THE POWERS OF DARKNESS.IN THE NAME OF JESUS I AM FREE.I WANT TO GO TO HEAVEN WHEN I PHYSICALLY DIE.LORD JESUS,BE MY LORD FROM TODAY UP TO ETERNITY.IN THE NAME OF JESUS,I THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING MY PRAYER.IN THE NAME OF JESUS.AMEN.
 
When you pray this prayer from your heart,something must happen.You must feel something.Because as i am writing this i am feeling something.
 
May the Lord Jesus help you to get restoration and receive liberty.I need to break for now to pray....
 
Pastor Munatsi.
 
 
 

 
> Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:29:40 -0700
> From: jade...@earthlink.net
> To: ti...@googlegroups.com

jade...@earthlink.net

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Sep 13, 2011, 11:28:08 AM9/13/11
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Thank you Rebecca for sharing with me those painful and ultimately triumphant trials in your life. Our God is great, and I too believe. The only child I had died inside of me- he was an ectopic pregnancy and caused hemoraging in me so that I had to be rushed to the hospital and be operated on to stop the bleeding and yes, they removed my child. The father had already abandoned me, and without my good friend Lynn I would have bled to death, because when you lose alot of blood you are pretty peaceful and just want to lie down and sleep. She found me and then wouldn't let me sleep and brought me to the emergency room. Do you think she was sent by God at that time to find me? I do. I knew in the spirit my child was a boy and his name is Matthew and I will see him soon also. Did you read the new book "Heaven is for Real"? It is lovely and very comforting to us who have loved ones in heaven. I have two brothers and a sister there- all tragedically removed from life too early- 2 by murder and one by Lou Gehrigs, so I know what you are talking about. I got into this whole discussion not because I do not believe and love the Lord, I do. My question is why I do not receive the benefits promised in the scriptures- I understand now the "test me in this" and the "pressed down- running over" promises are the old testiment covenant and that I am not under the law and do not have to religously tithe, but only do as the Holy Spirit prompts me. But I still am puzzled about the continual loss and deprivation. I know trials will come, and I know I have to have my share of them, but my situation is a pattern- it is pretty much now a given- that I will rise to a height where it is time for promotion or increase and then wham it is taken and given to another. So all the pat Christian answers still do not fit- not after this many years. You expect trials for a season, but then to have seasons of refreshing and increase also. I had a sense this morning as I awoke that God was sharpening me - that I was a sword that He was stropping back and forth to sharpen. My question to God is How sharp do I have to be and for what reason? Thank you for sharing with me. Kathy


-----Original Message-----
>From: Rebecca Brown <sewons...@gmail.com>
>Sent: Sep 12, 2011 10:40 PM
>To: ti...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?
>

jade...@earthlink.net

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Sep 13, 2011, 11:52:13 AM9/13/11
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Dear Pastor, I am not still under the devil's control- but thanks for worrying and being candid. I was a young person in the drug culture of the 1960s, was alcoholic also and being of an analytical mind I was attracted to astrology, and that is what I was involved in. I wrote charts and even gave some seminars! When I was born again I threw away all my books, ephemeris and what not, any occult things I have possession of and turned fully to God. Is the sin of astrology a greater sin then that of murder which both Moses and David - both beloved of God committed? Is the blood of Jesus not able to cleanse me from all that? We all have a tendency to sin that we get from our sin natures- generational sins, mine were of an intellectual nature, as well as the alcoholism that runs in my family (generational sins). The Lord took care of both of those. If I pick up the drink, drug or think I can figure out the future without the Holy Spirit's help (astrology) will the sin come back and find residence in me?- yes it will. But is my sin greater than a homosexual who turns from their sin and is cleansed by God? Am I damned eternally because of the sins of my youth? I don't think so. That is not what my Bible says. I am sure by this time you have read my response to Rebecca so I will not go on with more of this. I don't think any of us have the answers to why some Christians have cursed lives with multiple tragedies and losses. And with all this imput from all of you who are obviously scripturally affluent, but who don't have the answer either, I will just have to let it go. I have got my head straight on the tithing thing, and that had become a legialistic practice without me realizing it I think. Now I am free from that guilt and false sense of duty, to give freely as the Holy Spirit directs and provides. I thank you all for your help with that. Kathy
-----Original Message-----
From: Nyaradzai Munatsi
Sent: Sep 13, 2011 2:57 AM
To: ti...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?

Hie
 

Uum Kathy,your encounters were so unbearable.I read Rabbeca's contribution,she too faced real predicaments that if you are not strong in the faith you would say 'the Lord has rejected me'
 
I need to comment on both issues.
 
The two cases brought by you two people(Rabbeca and Kathy are different and yet the same)
 
 
The accident that claimed Rebecca's husband and other children was a devilish attack on the people of God.To me it resembles what happened to Job.It did not happen because Jod sinned,but God allowed it to happen anyway for the reasons bestly known to him.
One can even ask to say'why did God allow stephen to be stoned to death.'In the scriptures you see the word of God saying stephen also did not pray for protection,but he said'God in your hands i lay my spirit'.He confirmed where he was going by stating that 'i could see the heavens open,and the son of man seated on the right hand of God'.It explains that THERE ARE THINGS WHICH WE CAN NOT UNDERSTAND HERE UNLESS IF THE LORD OPENS IT TO US'.Why God would let the rightious die sometimes in scaring circumstances,why God would want a very busy and instrumental person in the Gospel like ELIJA to come to heaven with a pillar of fire on a chariot of heavenly horses.It just explains why it happens.HE HAS USE OF HIS RIGHTIOUS PEOPLE THERE IN HEAVEN.If your loved one is instrumental to God,its a treasure to die in Christ.It is a pain yes,but the more you understand scriptures the more you know we dont belong here.Philipans 3:20(We are citizens of Heaven).So you can not be sad if your husband was only going home where he belongs.
 
But the death through accidents is usually caused by the devil.What we call an attack.
 
Sorry for the statement that i am about to write it might not go well with you(Rabecca):THE WORD of God says we must pray without ceasing.The moment you relax a bit,the devil can steal from you sametime.I am not implying that you had relaxed a bit,but i am saying sometimes it happens...
 
 
Secondly,on your issue Kathy.As i am currently writing,i am feeling the presence of the Lord in my body and am stopping here and there to pray.In other words i seem to be touching on the sensitive part of the enemy(devil) and as the enemy shrieks in worry and pain,the Lord Jesus is protecting me,then i feel His presence.
 
Your predicament is typical of a curse.What ever you do seem to be bound by a curse.This can be as a result of your past relationship with the devil when you were in ocult and in promiscuity.Ocult involve selling your soul to the devil.Technically you will be practically a candidate of hell,and thus you experience real hell on earth.Read 1 John 5:17-19.The devil will not touch the children of God...,meaning to say the devil can only touch his(devil )own children,not of God.Normally your activities in Ocult involve insulting the Holyspirit and insulting God and Worshiping the devil.Now it depends on how you joined.Whether you were tricked into joining or else it was explained nicely upon joining,how it works(while you were still sober and unpossesed) and you made your own decision to join.If you were tricked,and then later realised that you have joined what you did not comprehend and then you left,your issue is understandable.
 
But if everything was clear and well decided,there is a risk that your sins might fall within the unforgivable sins mentioned by Jesus.But since he is our only hope,just be baptised and seek his mercy from the bottom of your heart.The word of God says even if your sins are as crimson red,they will be made as clean and as white as snow.
 
You know what happened.How did you join ocult activities and for what benefit?
 
Ocult things need real proper deliverance.The way you explain seems to indicate that,those satanic demons are the ones which are still torturing and haunting you.If you are not careful,you might still be in the ocult field without yourself knowing it.The activities of tampering with the soul are very dangerous in that God 's promises about your life are all on your soul.The devil will take everything.The good thing about our Lord is that he says in his word(Joel) that he will restore everything stolen by the devil,when you give yourself to God.
 
MAY YOU PLEASE READ THIS.IT IS A PRAYER.TRUST THAT THE LORD IS HEARING YOU AS YOU PRAY.LET IT COME FROM YOUR HEART.ITS A PRAYER OF DELIVERANCE FROM DEMONIC BONDAGE.
 
"LORD JESUS,THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD,I THANK YOU THAT YOU ARE MY LORD.I KNOW THAT YOU ARE MERCIFUL.FATHER I BEG FOR YOUR MERCY.FORGIVE ME.I SINNED BEFORE YOU.MAY YOU WASH ME BY YOUR BLOOD.WASH MY WHOLE BODY AND I WILL BE CLEAN.RESTORE WHAT IS MEANT FOR ME IN THIS LIFE.IN THE NAME OF YOU MY LORD JESUS CHRIST,I SUBMIT MYSELF BEFORE YOU.YOU KNOW MY PAST AND I REGRET HAVING DONE WHAT I DID(you mention what you did).I BELIEVE THROUGH YOU MY LORD JESUS I WILL BE RESTORED.I DO ACCEPT YOU AS MY LORD AND SAVIOUR.YOU DIED ON THE CROSS,YOU WERE BURIED BUT YOU AROSE ON THE THIRD DAY,YOU ASCENDED TO HEAVEN,YOU ARE SEATED ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.I PRAY FOR DELIVERANCE FROM THE POWERS OF DARKNESS.IN THE NAME OF JESUS I AM FREE.I WANT TO GO TO HEAVEN WHEN I PHYSICALLY DIE.LORD JESUS,BE MY LORD FROM TODAY UP TO ETERNITY.IN THE NAME OF JESUS,I THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING MY PRAYER.IN THE NAME OF JESUS.AMEN.
 
When you pray this prayer from your heart,something must happen.You must feel something.Because as i am writing this i am feeling something.
 
May the Lord Jesus help you to get restoration and receive liberty.I need to break for now to pray....
 
Pastor Munatsi.
 
 
 

 
> Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:29:40 -0700
> From: jade...@earthlink.net
> To: ti...@googlegroups.com

> Subject: Re: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] Is tithing voluntary or mandatory?
>
>

Rebecca Brown

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Sep 13, 2011, 1:57:07 PM9/13/11
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I would like to share more on my view of what has happened in my life.
There is a song that the Lord gave me years ago and that my husband
and I sang a lot. It is called "God Has Everything in His Hands" and
goes on to say "oh He knows our every problem. We are in His holy
plan. God holds us in His hands, If we're His we need not worry God
knows the heart of man." If God knows how to save us and remove all
our sins, Then why don't we just trust Him when problems trouble us
within? He is just the same today, as He was yesterday. He will still
meet all out needs, if to Him we'll only pray." We sang these words
over and over, and on the day that the accident happened, I still
believed them. Yes it may be said that the accident was an attack of
Satan. I really don't doubt that. However I believe that on the day
Jesus was beaten and crucified, that Satan believed he was destroying
the son of God for his own purposes too. Satan was behind the things
that happened to Job as well. However he did not touch Job until he
received permission from God. Job 2:3 And the Lord said unto Satan,
Hast thou considered my servant Job, ... Job 2:6" And the Lord said
unto Satan, Behold he is in thine hand; but save his life." God
himself drew Satan's attention to Job and he could not touch him until
God gave him permission to do so, because God had a reason for those
particular trials. Through them Job learned things about himself and
his God. His friends also learned great things as a result of those
trials, their responses to them and how God dealt with them and Job in
the end. Job's experiences can serve to teach us many things about God
when trials and tribulations come our way. God allowed the things
that happened to Jesus, not because He enjoyed seeing his son suffer
or ever wanted man to sin in the first place and His son to have to
take their punishment. But on the other hand, He did want it to happen
so that man could be freed from sin and restored to full fellowship
with Him. Now saying all that, I want to say that I believe it is
God's perfect plan and will that a man be there to provide for his
family and to lead them in the ways of God, not that they should be
taken at a young age. On the other hand I do believe that God knew
ahead of time that that drunk man was going to pull out of his lane
and drive toward our car and that He could have easily done a miracle
and saved us from he deaths that followed. I believe we were in the
hands of God, where we had willingly placed ourselves, with no need to
fear. Am I blaming God then? Well I am saying that I believe God
allowed the accident for reasons of His own, some of which I will
mention. Know this, that long before the accident, Dwight Brown had
demonstrated the love of God to his wife, his children and many
others. He had withstood the enemy and planted good seed in his
children. He had been faithful to the Word of God. Only a week or so
before the accident, he told me that he felt an urgency to write down
his thoughts and the things God had been showing him. (When he said
this to me, I had a sense that he might be going.) And one of the
things greatly on his mind had been the teaching of tithing, which he
said he believed to be the little leaven of the law that was leavening
the whole lump. In Galations chapter five, the writer is talking about
the old law, and concerning this (not sin), he says in verse 9, "A
little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." Well Dwight had put the
good word into my life and was considering beginning a Bible study in
our home. I truly believe that Satan was afraid of that man and how he
had seen God use him in times past. He knew that Dwight did not back
down to anyone, (though he be a kind and caring person), when it came
to the Word of God. He had tried him sorely before and could not
defeat the Word of God that he spoke and taught. If Satan did not stop
him, not only would he continue to be a terrible blow to his kingdom,
but so would his wife and children. Satan figured that if he got rid
of Dwight I would break down and the children in turn would be lost.
It was reasonable thinking. But you see it was not up to Satan what
happened to us. God had put him under our feet too many times before
for me to believe otherwise. I do not have a conscious memory of the
accident itself. I was told this is probably shock. But I can tell you
that the Lord carried me and used me even in that time. I have been
told of things I said and did in the hospital that I have no memory
of. It is like hearing a story being told to me. But the things I said
were evidence that the Lord was talking to my spirit in that time,
showing me things, reminding me of things and I believe carrying me in
his arms. Yes I was injured too as were all my children. I had one
partially collapsed lung, my teeth were pushed up into the sinus
cavity on the left side of my face and I had other cuts, nothing life
threatening, except the lung which was taken care of, or maybe
bleeding. Well I learned later that my brother Tim, prayed a sinners
prayer in the hospital cafeteria. I later learned his wife had too.
Some years later his wife asked me to go to her mother (who lived here
in town,while she lived in Ill.) because she thought she was ready to
receive Jesus. She was saved, late her husband, her son, a daughter
who had been prone to panic attacks, and also my brother's two
children have been saved and are involved in ministry. I believe
Dwight gave his life for God to get the attention of my brother and
his wife, that many other souls would come into the kingdom of God. I
asked my children one time, knowing how their daddy loved them and
would never want to be away from them for long, if they thought he
would be willing to be away for awhile, and it is only temporary, if
it would mean Uncle Tim and Aunt Karla being with us forever in
Heaven, and they said "Yes". But that is not all. The love my husband
gave his family did not stop loving or affecting our lives after he
was gone. Love keeps on loving. Seeds keep on growing. He and his God,
our God, are still a part of us. Well since Dwight did not get the
things God had been showing him written down, I decided to study and
write on the subject of tithing. I spent hundreds of hours with the
Word, a concordance, a Lexicon, a dictionary, paper, pens and the Lord
Himself. I wrote a manuscript most Christian publishers will not even
read, but it blessed my life tremendously. I have learned that the
Word Dwight shared with a young evangelist, on this subject, who has
now been pastoring some 13-15 years, has greatly affected his life. So
the Word still spreads. Now all of my children know and believe and
stand for this truth, which means it will be spread to their children.
What I am saying is that what Satan meant for harm, to destroy a
family and to stop the spreading of the truth has only backfired on
him. My husband and I shared and were one, I refused to let Satan
steal that from me. I know my husband and daughter are alive in the
presence of the Lord and we will be reunited. This life is temporary.
i still have forever. God said he would be a father to the fatherless,
and in their father's absence God has done just that. My son was home
schooled and I could not teach him computer. But I told hem that his
father said "It's not so much what you learn but that you learn to
learn. I told him he could learn anything he wanted, he could find a
way to get the info he needed. Well he got a book at the library and
began learning computer. Before he was nineteen he was hired as a web
page designer. He now works from his home and usually makes between
30-60 dollars per hour. He is a faithful father and husband, a giver
of love and help to myself and others, and he was only seven when he
was left without his father. God always keeps His word. Rom. 8:18 For
I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be
compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. PRAISE GOD!!!
In later years I suffered because of the message of tithing. One
pastor never directly gave that reason, but he asked people to pray
for the destruction of my flesh that my soul might be saved. Only
months before this he had said I was anointed and wanted me to help
him with worship in his church. I was never involved with men,
choosing not to remarry and everyone knew this, so it was not because
of sexual immorality. But I heard his wife was telling people about me
believing differently about - guess what - tithing! I have been lied
about, defamed etc. I could tell so many stories that would sound so
bad and so sad, but you know what? Jesus said, Luke 6:22 +23 Blessed
are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate from
their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil,
for the Son of man's sake. 23 REJOICE ye in that day, and leap for
joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in like manner
did their fathers unto the prophets. Phil. 3:10 That I may know him,
and the power of his resurrection, and THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS
SUFFERINGS, being made conformable unto his death. This, I think is
one of the hardest things for Christians to get hold of and practice.
We need to believe these words and REJOICE in our sufferings! I have
learned that the person who is trying to harm me is in worse condition
than I am and I am the one person who can pray for him and reach God
for him. God is the one who can vindicate and bring truth to light!
Paul said this of himself - Col. 1:24+25 "Who now REJOICE in my
sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the
AFFLICTIONS OF CHRIST in my flesh, FOR HIS BODY'S SAKE, WHICH IS THE
CHURCH. 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the WORD OF GOD.
People in this day and age need to see people who are victorious right
in the middle of persecution and who praise His name, believe his
promises and enjoy his presence in the middle of apparent trouble. We
already see the false teachers who proclaim God is with us when we are
rolling in money. But the world needs to see people on their own level
who have joy and contentment in whatever state they find themselves.
It is Satan who whispers in our ears when we are weak, and reminds us
of our misery. Paul was beaten, left for dead, shipwrecked etc. but he
rejoiced in his sufferings. Christ had suffered for us, he could
suffer for him and to reach souls for him. SO CAN WE! And rejoice in
it! God is willing to help us take on such a mind set! Matt. 5:11+12
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and
shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12
Rejoice, and be EXCEEDINGLY GLAD: for great is your reward in heaven:
for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Okay, so I
know it doesn't feel good. And I think it is okay to get mad for a
moment or even have a good cry. But whose report are we going to
believe brothers and sisters? The discouraging word of the accuser,
Satan who will tell us we have failed, or have been forsaken, or
should feel bad at all those who were not there for us, and urge us to
give up and die? Or the voice of our Savior who tells us we are
citizens of a country whose builder and maker is God and where we will
see the fruit of our labor IF we overcome to the end? PHil 4:4 REJOICE
in the Lord ALWAYS: and again I say REJOICE. Romans 5: 2-5 By whom
(JESUS) also we have access BY FAITH into this grace wherein we stand,
and REJOICE in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we

GLORY IN TRIBULATIONS also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, HOPE: 5 AND HOPE MAKETH
NOT ASHAMED; because the LOVE OF GOD IS SHED ABROAD IN OUR HEARTS BY
THE HOLY GHOST which is GIVEN unto us. My dear brother who has spread
the Word of God in Ireland and suffered so much, remember the reward
in heaven and the source of your strength. I am not trying to sound as
though I have no empathy for such pain and trouble! I have walked in
the shadow of death myself. Though never have I faced all the things
you have. But I know who I have believed in and I know that He is able
to keep all that you commit to him against that day. You and I have
treasures awaiting in heaven and eternity is much longer than our life
here. Look up my brother! Look into the face of your redeemer who
lives and will help you to overcome.! Ask God, who is love to help you
to begin to GLORY in your tribulations and see what will happen to
your spirit. The joy of the Lord is your strength and you greatly need
his strength. Walk in the Spirit of God and drink cool water even in
desert places. Our treasures are not here on earth anyway. Do not
think of your wife with sadness but rather think of the reunion ahead.
God bless you dear brother. Look up your redemption draweth nigh!

jade...@earthlink.net

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Sep 13, 2011, 2:45:04 PM9/13/11
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Well said Rebecca, and this truth was hard earned. It especially touched me about the person who is the victim of another person is the one that can most effectively pray for them. Kathy

Nyaradzai Munatsi

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Sep 14, 2011, 4:25:39 AM9/14/11
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Hie
 
Thanks Rabbecca for your words filled with the spirit of God.
 
Katty did not say anything?Say something.Did you make that prayer,at least once?
 
Regards
 
 
Pastor Munatsi.
 
> Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 11:45:04 -0700

Mike and Debra Copeland

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Sep 14, 2011, 9:46:29 AM9/14/11
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Greetings! My wife and I have an independent ministry which is 20 years old now by the Grace of God. Here's a short testimony video and a rare time when my wife is on camera sharing her experience balanced with the scriptures.
  http://www.higherpraisetube.com/video/Store_Treasures_Pt_2
Please feel free to share any questions and we have more media on our website at www.saltandfire.com which has our homemade original music and teaching videos.

Thanks for coming by,

Mike and Debra
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

saltandfire

jade...@earthlink.net

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Sep 14, 2011, 11:50:43 AM9/14/11
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Hello Pastor, I guess you did not read my last response. I did say something- I responded to you directly, explaining that I was not in Satan's camp and I did pray your prayer. Do you think maybe your own fears about satanic realms colored your assessment of me? I am a child of God just like you, and Jesus' blood cleansed me of my sins and continues to do so. Since our last communication I have met someone who has had continual warfare and depriviation also, someone who is serving God- so I am not an isolated case. I have prayed and asked God for months to show me someone like me, who has been in the wilderness for decades, with disappointment after disappointed, and He has, and it greatly comforted me. Since then the Lord gave me a vision- showing him stropping a sword back and forth on a strap like the barbers used to do with their straight razors to get them sharp, and He gave me the knowledge that I was that sword and he was sharpening me. Like all visions from the Lord I have ever received it took me several days to digest this, but I have and it gives me maybe some understanding, but I don't see myself as a sword and can not conceive what battle He plans to use me in. I do appreciated the efforts you have gone to help me, and I thank you for that. Kathy

Nyaradzai Munatsi

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Sep 14, 2011, 4:06:14 PM9/14/11
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Hie KATHY
 
I'm sorry i think i missed your comment somewhere.
Let me tell you something,the word of God says anyone who received Jesus will definately face persecution.We face percecution everyday and isolation everyday.Its only that i wanted to make sure that you are on the right position since the word speaks so much about   'if you confess with your own mouth that Jesus is Lord,you will be saved'.
 
Our pasts must not determine our future.My worry was only that at times,without yourself knowing it,you might be still possesed and then you continue being haunted, practically being evident in everything that you do.
 
I am happy with your confidence in the Lord.He is a good God.Tribulations can come,but he spares our lives,and rescues us from our predicaments so that we will give a testimony when we eventually receive our answers.At times prayers are only answered when we think its too late.
 
Remember God will never be too late to solve a problem.Just remember about the story of Lazarus.Jesus did not come when Lazarus was still alive.He only came when he was dead,to prove that he can make the dead arise,bringing Glory to his name.He is a Lord who makes things possible even when we think otherwise.
 
Think about Abraham,only when he was ninety nine years is when he was blessed with Isaac.Many years of waiting but when the results come,you will forget that you suffered for such a long time.
 
May the Lord Continue strengthening you.Persecutions will continue,but victory must be evident.
 
 
Regards
 
 
Pastor Munatsi.

 

Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:50:43 -0700

Mike and Debra Copeland

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Sep 17, 2011, 7:40:08 AM9/17/11
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Hi Kathy that's a very prophetic vision and I sign of Jesus love because those He disciplines He loves. There is a video that my wife and I highly recommend (also a prophetic vision she had) on our home page toward the bottom called "And with Fire" that is to encourage those who are going through tribulation that gives understanding according to His Word that we all will have to go through the firing process! Please come by our site when you have time www.saltandfire.com sincerely, Mike and Deb 
saltandfire

jade...@earthlink.net

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Sep 17, 2011, 1:04:33 PM9/17/11
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Wow, Debra and Mike, I am awed by that message, it has really touched me deeply- thank you for sharing it with me. So I am in the fire, now after all these years in the 'fire' I am worried that I may be in it forever as I am accutely aware of how corrupt I still am. My sin nature still rises up, how will I ever get to the end of this? Here is something ironic, almost 40 years ago I worked with severely burned children, I had to clean, feed and change their burn dressings. It was horrific the amount of pain they were in and each day, several times a day we had to remove the dressings, and take sterial twisers and remove the dead tissue- they called it debreeding, which caused them more pain, and then re-wrap the wounds, and then drench the entire thing in a silver nitrate solution, all this had to be done in a sterial atmosphere, sometimes working through plastic walls on the most severe patients. Many of them died, all of them were terribly scarred. The pain they went through for months and sometimes years is hard to imagine, and they were all children, and we were all humbled by their braverly and endurance. So I certainly understood your burn 'degree' vision. I will have to think on all this for a while. Kathy

Mike and Debra Copeland

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Sep 17, 2011, 7:16:02 PM9/17/11
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Kathy this is Debbie. We are all fighting a corrupt nature. Remember the scripture in Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: vs. And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Even though the Lord put upon our hearts to make the video, we still have to remind our own selves because the word is for the entire body of Christ and the enemy wants us completely focused on ourselves instead of giving it back to Jesus and asking the Holy Spirit for understanding, comfort and guidance. The Lord is still with us and He allows the purification to draw us closer to Him because to be in relationship is His the very reason He created us!

God Bless, Debbie
PS. This is Mike Kathy, when you get your breath back so to speak, the other video's the Lord has given us we believe will also help to understand the Day and Season we are living in and be of comfort when you feel led.

Gregory

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Dec 27, 2012, 10:48:07 AM12/27/12
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Read 2 Corinthians 9:7 and judge for yourself. The tithe in the old testament consisted of three tithes not just one.
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