But then: the result is a slew of tiddlers with long numeric IDs that, tho nicely presented in the edit window as a clean hierarchal outline, cannot be either flattened into a single tiddler, nor exported or even copy/pasted into the tiddler body via any built-in affordance. I've been going the copy/paste way so far, but it's a hard road to travel, given any significant length and/or complexity to your outline.
Now: plugin author Saq said essentially that the only reason he hasn't built in any such affordance is that he
doesn't know what users want: a simple concatenation of the stream? a hierarchial structure in some form?
For me, the best (and simplest?) solution would be to convert the stream to Markdown: each node being just a line of text preceded by a number of asterisks (1->any) to reflect its level in the hierarchy.
Hey @Saq: That demo of Streams-as-editor plugin (what i presume is performing the magic, from browsing the plugin list) is indeed interesting... But it freezes up when i push the "save" button (have downloaded and tried an instance in both TiddlyDesktop and current Chrome browser; no joy)
SO this is to ask all of you with any experience of Streams plugin: Can you relate to the need i am expressing? Or have you found a good way "flatten" your streams, and integrate your Streams content properly into a TW instance? If so, anything you might care to share in terms of workflow and/or code would be most appreciated.
Meanwhile: i too would very much like to know who else is using Streams regularly, and in what sort of workflow(s).
So if you are one, dear reader, please let us know!
One of the things I would dearly like to know is how many people are actually using Streams on a regular basis, and what their workflow looks like. My feeling is its a very small handful and I'll admit that probably influences how much time I devote to working on Streams.
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That's an interesting UseCase, @mario -along w/ some interesting content, including talk by Don Blair (NB: that farm in Portugal he talks about is mine :-).
... I guess what i might do to refine this to my prefs is have each talk in the conference with its own "parent" tiddler; then if i could zero-out that timeline of which you speak at start of each talk, it should then track pretty close to the final video, so long as they don't edit-out any portions of it in post-production. To achieve perfect alignment, presuming a continuous stream, you might need to tweak these codes after -which would involve a bulk renaming of all related tiddlers i guess. Am just thinking out loud here, w/ benefit of hindsight...
Anyway, as it stands: this looks to me like a very good solution to that problem in the majority of YouTube videos published, whereby most of them have either no "shownotes" at all, or else notes that serve some promotional purpose(s) that most viewers would MUCH rather see complemented (if not entirely replaced) with a helpful time-coded set of jump-links to whatever section(s) of content they consider to be of interest.To that end, Mario, this represents a solid step forward. Thanks for sharing it here!
I my workflow, I treat them as sub-tiddlers really. You could say I replaced larger tiddlers with multiple headings with much smaller streams nodes (but not single line ones); main advantage is I can move nodes around, indent them, etc... and drag them from one tiddler to another (although I have recently noted this has an unfortunate side effect).
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+@saq: you will however note this pattern of moving nodes from one tiddler to another also disrupts the powerful relink tool when you rename the root. Only child nodes that match the title prefix are updated; meaning anything you dragged from a different origin retains its old name. The alternative would be the drag n' drop action also updates the child node title to the destination tiddler.
On the topic of how many people use it, maybe you could consider creating a Google Form and linking to it from the download page, asking users if they would take a second to answer some brief questions?
I was also wondering if you had considered setting up a way for users to donate? Not necessarily to fund development, just to show appreciation for great free software! I am not currently in a position to contribute much, but in the future I would certainly be happy to subscribe to a patreon or whatever.
I would add that like Mario I am very happy with the current features of streams, though I have made the following tweak to the text display for the breadcrumbs. It's a very minor thing, but in my opinion looks nicer than just cutting off the title mid-word:<$text text={{{ [<display-title>length[]compare:number:lt[40]then<display-title>] ~[<display-title>split[]first[40]join[]trim[]addsuffix[...]] }}}/>
@Walt hopefully you are getting some helpful feedback here. Apologies for the slight digression caused by my replying to Streams specific comments and feedback.
Saq, i just hope that the enthusiasm of your user community here is sufficient to retain your continuing interest in Streams.
I've also been considering asking for volunteers for a small group of regular users of Streams for testing new features..
from my perspective however how, much effort I put into adding new features to Streams is highly dependent on how many people regularly use it and find that it imparts value. Call it a personal quirk but wanting to impart the most value possible is something that often drives my decision making in terms of what I dedicate my time to.
That is definitely a nice idea. I wonder if we might take it a step further and just drop the last word (which may be incomplete). This is untested:
<$text text={{{ [<display-title>length[]compare:number:lt[40]then<display-title>] ~[<display-title>split[]first[40]join[]trim[]search-replace:g:regexp[(.*)\s(\w+)$],[$1]] }}}/>
What do you think?
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That is definitely a nice idea. I wonder if we might take it a step further and just drop the last word (which may be incomplete). This is untested:
<$text text={{{ [<display-title>length[]compare:number:lt[40]then<display-title>] ~[<display-title>split[]first[40]join[]trim[]search-replace:g:regexp[(.*)\s(\w+)$],[$1]] }}}/>
What do you think?
I've also been considering asking for volunteers for a small group of regular users of Streams for testing new features..I'm happy to test stuff out as required.
It seems the breadcrumbs feature could be split out into a generic plugin itself...
Picking up where this earlier thread left off, i am following Saq's advice to start another conversation on the more specific question of HOW best to use -and perhaps adapt- the Streams plugin, to make TW into a great tool for not only "intertwingly" NoteTaking (which it certainly is), but also great for agile NoteTaking, as defined in aforementioned thread.Having just installed the plugin (Streams 0.2.18) in my TiddlyDesktop instance, i am already fairly drunk on the power of having what feels like a full-fledged outliner within a tiddler, where i can bang out a stream of bullet points, promote & demote, indent & outdent, etc... All as fast as i can type the keystrokes, or drag&drop on mobile.But then: the result is a slew of tiddlers with long numeric IDs that, tho nicely presented in the edit window as a clean hierarchal outline, cannot be either flattened into a single tiddler, nor exported or even copy/pasted into the tiddler body via any built-in affordance. I've been going the copy/paste way so far, but it's a hard road to travel, given any significant length and/or complexity to your outline.Now: plugin author Saq said essentially that the only reason he hasn't built in any such affordance is that he doesn't know what users want: a simple concatenation of the stream? a hierarchial structure in some form?For me, the best (and simplest?) solution would be to convert the stream to Markdown: each node being just a line of text preceded by a number of asterisks (1->any) to reflect its level in the hierarchy. This could be interpreted & displayed correctly in any tiddler that is formatted Markdown; TW has affordances for this -as does Github (.md is default format of ReadMe files there) and most web publishing & word processing apps you can find these days. Indeed, Saq indicated that a .md<->.tid converter would be no big deal (for him, at least :-) to create; this would enable not only "flattening" of a Stream in such manner, but also importing a .md file as presentable tiddler content. Now THAT would be cool, IMHO... But that's just me, so far.SO this is to ask all of you with any experience of Streams plugin: Can you relate to the need i am expressing? Or have you found a good way "flatten" your streams, and integrate your Streams content properly into a TW instance? If so, anything you might care to share in terms of workflow and/or code would be most appreciated.NB: I did learn in the course of that earlier thread about this Streams-to-text solution (thanks @Si for the pointer), but Saq warned that the plugin (actually a microAddOn/Mod, according to author Jan) is not compatible with current version of Streams as it stands, though he believes that Jan is working on it. So i'm holding off on installing that for now, but would love to hear any news or user reports about that./walt
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Hi Walt,Hopefully you will get input from people actually using Streams as to what works for them.
One of the things I would dearly like to know is how many people are actually using Streams on a regular basis, and what their workflow looks like. My feeling is its a very small handful and I'll admit that probably influences how much time I devote to working on Streams.
But then: the result is a slew of tiddlers with long numeric IDs that, tho nicely presented in the edit window as a clean hierarchal outline, cannot be either flattened into a single tiddler, nor exported or even copy/pasted into the tiddler body via any built-in affordance. I've been going the copy/paste way so far, but it's a hard road to travel, given any significant length and/or complexity to your outline.Have you considered any of the methods outlined here?
Now: plugin author Saq said essentially that the only reason he hasn't built in any such affordance is that hedoesn't know what users want: a simple concatenation of the stream? a hierarchial structure in some form?
It's a bit more than that. Each node in a stream is a tiddler and can have any content. Streams was originally envisioned not just for rapid note taking but also for the ability to divide your text into smaller tiddlers as you write/edit. As such it is difficult to envisage a single export format that would work for everyone's content. However using the approaches outlined in the link above you can easily set up your own markdown export.
For me, the best (and simplest?) solution would be to convert the stream to Markdown: each node being just a line of text preceded by a number of asterisks (1->any) to reflect its level in the hierarchy.
The issue is that MD tiddlers will always be second class citizens in TiddlyWiki. I think in the long run this isn't going to be a feasible approach unless all you want to do is write your notes and export them outside of TiddlyWiki. Also note that while MD syntax does support multiline content in lists, TW markup does not ( at least not cleanly).As an aside, I think something like this unfulfilled experiment would suit your use case from what I know of it:Before you ask, no plans to take that any further, in part due to the reasons outlined above.
Cheers,
Saq
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Hi Walt, I am happy to announce that the streams to text is finally updated: https://szen.io/stream/ . Thanks to Saq who has gently helped me and provided hooks within the plugin, that make it fun tinkering with the plugin, this version should be more future-proof than the last ones.As always: Backup before using it to recompress the ideas, you collected with streams.Enjoy,Jan
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Hi Walt,
I guess you have to install Saq's brandnew version 0.2.19 of his plugin. He programmed a hook to make the bottom-buttons appear because they are tagged.As for the requested sensor for the indent level I am sorry to admit that I have no idea how to build this.Cheers Jan
Am Di., 29. Juni 2021 um 20:45 Uhr schrieb ludwa6 <wlud...@gmail.com>:
Thanks, Saq: I deleted the stream-row-template object, and now -tho i still don't see any new button at bottom of stream, i find that, by clicking on the bullet that appears at top left of a stream w/ nested nodes, it opens up the UI on this modal, which delivers what's promised -and more!@Jan: Thanks a heap for this update; it adds real utility to the app for me! A nice bonus (maybe it was also in earlier version/ demo, and i didn't notice) is that pulldown option in the modal UI to select either bulleted or numbered list, as alternative to the paragraph-formatted option.What could add even more value to this feature would be to have the number of bullets or hashmarks correspond to the indent level; that would preserve the essential function of "flattening" the many nodes into a single text block, while also yielding text in format that TW could interpret and render with treelike indentation, as an option. (there's my €0.02 of user feedback, fwiw! :-)/walt
...
Please let me restate your statement "if Tiddly-Streams had a solid .md<->tid converter", actually, I believe it should be "if TiddlyWiki had a solid .md<->tid converter".
Sure streams may be the best front end for what you discuss, but the last mile is one for tiddlywiki. There are other front ends other users prefer in TiddlyWiki (in no way diminishing Streams).
Also it not about tid<->md more about tiddlywiki<->md.
My preference is to build a converter and add it to https://pandoc.org/ then the last mile to another format can become the last mile to many formats. See examples in Wiki markup formats.
The fact is a path most likely exists already, and example is generate compliant HTML code and you can convert to markdown. However it would be more robust if we could go in both directions with TiddlyWiki's own markup. The issue may be the more advanced tiddlers using widgets, however these can be used to generate "static" content not containing widgets for publishing.
Its all about structure and content. If you ensure you retain all the structure and content you need you can typically convert anything to anything.
TiddlyWiki is already "a real category-killer", in many categories.
As always @Tones: thanks for helping to clarify my fuzzy thinking :-) Quick comments inline below:Please let me restate your statement "if Tiddly-Streams had a solid .md<->tid converter", actually, I believe it should be "if TiddlyWiki had a solid .md<->tid converter".Of course, that makes sense; the conversion affordance should live at the lower TW level. I've just been w/ tunnel vision the last few days about moving content (including hierarchal presentation) from Streams:nodes to Tiddler body, but this is indeed a platform issue. /w
Sure streams may be the best front end for what you discuss, but the last mile is one for tiddlywiki. There are other front ends other users prefer in TiddlyWiki (in no way diminishing Streams).Yes! And i'm still using a mitfull of those other tront ends myself; again, shame on me for the narrowminded thinking. /w
Also it not about tid<->md more about tiddlywiki<->md.Indeed? Must confess, this is a nuance of understanding that eludes me. Can you shed additional light as to what this distinction means, in practical terms? /w
My preference is to build a converter and add it to https://pandoc.org/ then the last mile to another format can become the last mile to many formats. See examples in Wiki markup formats.Ah... You mean that TiddlyWiki format (whatever that means; i thought it was .tid) should join that list on Pandoc page of "Wiki markup formats" supported? What would be involved in achieving that, i wonder... /w
The fact is a path most likely exists already, and example is generate compliant HTML code and you can convert to markdown. However it would be more robust if we could go in both directions with TiddlyWiki's own markup. The issue may be the more advanced tiddlers using widgets, however these can be used to generate "static" content not containing widgets for publishing.My simpleton (i.e. text-wrangling, not code-slinging) perspective is: the simplest step for those us writing in TW to move content back-&-forth with the outside world would be: a mainstream text-based format that supports a minimal modicum of formatting, that is machine parsable to html and other formats, but still readable by humans. The only format i know that meets these requirements is Markdown. This is probably the simplest and highest-leverage step we could take, to make that breakthru into mainstream viability -dontcha think? /w
Its all about structure and content. If you ensure you retain all the structure and content you need you can typically convert anything to anything.If you say so, mate -i'm happy to hear it! /w
TiddlyWiki is already "a real category-killer", in many categories.Amen, @Tones!
As to the node-flattening issue.... i would like to see "wikitext" join the other 3 options (bullet list, numbered list and paragraphs)
The other issue you've raised of particular interest to me is the mobile UseCase - which may be more properly considered a UserModel that could serve as extension to various UseCases. This in my case involves using Quine2 on iOS devices: iPhone and iPad -2 different form factors, which lend themselves to somewhat different modes of interaction. What's needed here is the ability to manipulate position in the hierarchy via swipe L/R, drag Up/Down. Is this what you're talking about in that Reddit thread you shared? Or is there some other mode of mobile interaction to consider?
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I noticed my solution does not work so well for complex node content, as those in: https://saqimtiaz.github.io/streams/#Working%20with%20streams%20tiddlersThe reason is that wrapping in <div> tags mangles them badly; I tried a few alternatives (<span>, more white space, ..), no success yet. Any suggestions?
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@Saq: As shared in another post i've been too busy farming lately to think about this -but when i do get a chanc, the focus Q is: how can i use this software to simplify the crazy-making challenge of keeping track of all my crops and animals and machines and markets and all the other moving targets there are swirling about the complex open dynamical ecosystem that is the farm -this one, or any other.
$:/plugins/sq/streams/nodes-list-template
tiddler as per the github issue recommendation and see if that helps. Failing that, there may be something else I am overlooking.--
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So, you have to add manual config even though it's set up in the relink plugin config?
It might be helpful if this was mentioned in the installation tiddler. Most people are going to assume that if they have the relink tiddler that they're good to go.
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Also need to find an easy way to delete all the node-tiddlers rendered superfluous, once i flatten using your modal ; this is the one function of Jan's addon that i miss...
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Is there a search tool or plugin that works with streams? Streams is neat to take notes with, but searching is problematic since the default search shows you only the titles. Possibly someone has already written a custom search?
{
"steps": [
{"filter": "[!is[system]tag[todo]search:title:literal[]get-stream-root[]!tag[Journal]!tag[Meeting]!tag[done]]", "hint": "todo (titles)", "caret": "42"},
{"filter": "[!is[system]tag[todo]search:text:literal[]get-stream-root[]!tag[Journal]!tag[Meeting]!tag[done]]", "hint": "todo (text)", "caret": "41"},
{"filter": "[!is[system]tag[Meeting]search:title:literal[]!sort[title]]", "hint": "meetings (main)", "caret": "45"},
{"filter": "[!is[system]tag[Journal]search:title:literal[]!sort[title]first[2]]", "hint": "meetings (titles)", "caret": "45"},
{"filter": "[!is[system]tag[Journal]search:text:literal[]get-stream-root[]!sort[title]]", "hint": "meetings (text)", "caret": "44"},
{"filter": "[!is[system]search:title:literal[]get-stream-root[]]", "hint": "others (titles)", "caret": "33"},
{"filter": "[!is[system]search:text:literal[]get-stream-root[]]", "hint": "others (text)", "caret": "32"},
{"filter": "[!is[system]tag[todo]search:literal[]get-stream-root[]!tag[Journal]!tag[Meeting]tag[done]]", "hint": "completed", "caret": "42"},
{"filter": "[!is[system]search::literal[]get-stream-root[]]", "hint": "all", "caret": "28"}
]
}
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