Why do ID perps still exist?

[RonO]

Kalk and Bill should provide their opinion on why the ID creationist
scam still has a group of creationists pushing the scam and continuing
to run the bait and switch on creationist rubes. The ID perps are still
claiming to have the ID science to teach in the public schools, but all
they have used ID for is as the bait in order to run in a switch scam
that they claim has nothing to do with the ID science.

Why are the ID perps tolerated, and who would support them when the bait
and switch has been going down for over 20 years? Kalkidas now claims
that the ID scam is no longer anything that he thinks is worth thinking
about. He claims that the Top Six evidences for IDiocy just became
something that wasn't worth considering any longer. When the Top Six
were presented in their logical order of occurrence in this universe
Bill just claimed that he had never supported the ID scam. There is no
doubt that Bill had been a supporter of the creationist ID scam since he
started posting. He had just never supported what it had actually been
all those years. Bill likely began to understand that he had never
wanted to support the ID creation science because he stopped putting up
the junk and had started his "reality doesn't exist" routine a couple
years before the Top Six were presented as a related group to the
IDiots. Science is just the best means we have developed to understand
nature, and it turned out that for creationists that believed that
nature was the Biblical creation, nature just is not Biblical. Even if
the ID perps had been able to fill their gaps with a god, it would not
have been the god of the Bible. Kalkidas and Bill had never wanted the
ID perps to succeed in filling their god-of the-gaps denial junk with
scientific evidence that some god existed. It all would have just been
more science for them to deny.

Bill likely realized this fact before the Top Six rubbed their faces in
the current scientific reality. Paul Nelson has been an ID perps from
the start of the Discovery Institute's ID scam unit, and he has likely
understood that there was never any ID science that he wanted to see
accomplished. Early on Behe and Denton had informed the creationist
rubes that they could not expect much to change about our understanding
of nature with any IDiotic successes. They were both theistic
evolutionists, and understood that any IDiotic science would just add to
the science that already existed. Nelson is always quoted for his
statement around the time of the Dover Fiasco that the ID science did
not exist, but that the ID perps were trying very hard to produce some
viable ID science. I recall Nelson making similar statements much
earlier than that. He had already made similar claims when the first
bait and switch went down on the Ohio rubes in 2002. Nelson is a young
earth creationist Biblical ID perp. He likely would have never joined
up with the ID scam if they had had any real ID science because the ID
perps have always lied to the rubes about ID being a "Big Tent" where
all forms of creationism were welcomed. All of the ID "science" would
have just supported old earth creationism, and likely wouldn't even
support the old earth Biblical creationists like they have at Reason to
Believe who claim to be IDiots. Nature just is not Biblical, and the
ancient "designed" creation events occur out of Biblical order. Nelson
has likely known this from the beginning, and would have quit the ID
scam if any ID science had ever been verified. He has just been willing
to go along with the scam, for as long as no ID science was ever
attempted and accomplished.

Pagano understood immediately what the Top Six meant, and claimed that
they were bogus and not the best evidence for the creationist ID scam.
The Top Six did not support Pagano's old earth geocentric creationist
beliefs. Pagano quit posting. Kalkidas and Bill are no longer IDiotic
creationist. Why do ID perps still exist to continue to run the bait
and switch on hapless creationist rubes?

Current IDiotic Propaganda about teaching the science of ID in the
public schools. They had updated this pdf in 2021, but have since
reformated the site and seem to have reverted to the 2018 version:
https://www.discovery.org/f/1453/

Even the ID perps can't deal with their own Top Six:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/a2K79skPGXI/m/uDwx0i-_BAAJ

Ron Okimoto

[broger...@gmail.com]

Pascal might have answered your question thusly "If the ID perps didn't exist, you'd have to invent them."

[jillery]

The following is a point utterly orthogonal to the substance of all
that you say above, yet is important in its own way.

I assume no regular reader of T.O. would make such a mistake, but a
naive reader might confuse your "Bill" to refer to Bill Rogers, who is
a more prolific poster to T.O. than is the Freon Bill persona I assume
you refer above.

Just as you would likely distinguish "Ron Okimoto" from "Ron Dean", I
am here recommending that your future posts make a similar distinction
between "Bill Rogers" and "Freon Bill".

That is all.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge

[Lawyer Daggett]

One might, or one might decide to ignore Ron Okimoto for his obnoxious
behavior. There is a nearly unanimous agreement that consistently invoking
the names of other posters into threads they did not personally join is
a very rude thing to do. This is true whether one advertises that they are a
professor or are more demur about it. Ron has some relevant knowledge
but his behavior makes me think of him as the least valuable player on t.o.

[RonO]

Kalk and Bill are included because they did exactly what I claim, and
they would be the most likely pair still posting that would be able to
give their explanation for why things are the way that they are. Both
of them had no issues figuring out what the Top Six meant to the ID scam
and the creationist rubes that were still supporting the effort. As I
indicate, Bill likely figured it out before the Top Six were put out.
Unlike you with your profound misconception of the events, they
understood just what the ID perps had done by presenting the Top Six the
way that they had been presented. My guess is that this is more sour
grapes about your profound misconception about the events and doesn't
seem to be any way to deal with it. Who else would be able to provide a
relevant explanation? Both of them no longer seem to have any love for
the ID perps, and there is the chance that we might learn something.
They haven't given up on their religious beliefs, they have just given
up on the ID scam.

Ron Okimoto

[jillery]

> One might, or one might decide to ignore Ron Okimoto for his obnoxious
> behavior. There is a nearly unanimous agreement that consistently invoking
> the names of other posters into threads they did not personally join is
> a very rude thing to do. This is true whether one advertises that they are a
> professor or are more demur about it. Ron has some relevant knowledge
> but his behavior makes me think of him as the least valuable player on t.o.

You illustrate above a good example of how different posters use different
reasons for ignoring other posters. I agree invoking other posters' names
usually is annoying, especially when it's used as a form of quotemining.
But it would be difficult to not mention other posters when the topic
involves the history of T.O., and especially inside an original post to such
topics. For these reasons, IMO this particular instance isn't obnoxious
enough to consider ignoring him. Apparently your mileage varies.

[Kalkidas]

On 11/4/2023 7:06 AM, RonO wrote:
> scam ...scam...
> bait and switch...rubes. ...perps ...
>...
> .bait...switch scam
> ...
>
> ...perps...bait
>...
>...scam ...
>...IDiocy...
> ...scam....
>...scam...
> ...
>...
>...junk...
>...
> IDiots....
>...
> ...perps...
> ...
>...perps...denial junk...
>
>...rubbed their faces...
> ...perps...
> .scam unit...
> ...
> rubes...
>...IDiotic.
> ...IDiotic...
>...
>...perps...
>...
> bait and switch...rubes...
> ...perp....
> ...scam...
> perps...rubes...
> ...
> ...IDiots....
>...
> scam ...
> ...scam,...
> ...
> ...scam.
> ...IDiotic
>...perps...bait
> and switch...rubes?
>
> ....IDiotic ...
> ...
>
>...perps...

That's why.

[RonO]

The ID perp debacle with the Top Six was likely the most significant
event in the history of TO in terms of a single issue changing TO
dramatically. Most of the existing IDiots quit being IDiots. Kalk and
Glenn initially tried to run from reality and tried to keep putting up
the second rate gap denial that wasn't good enough to include as the
best evidence that the ID perps had, but Kalkidas couldn't keep doing
that and eventually quit the ID scam. Kalk came out and claimed that he
had never claimed to be Hindu and he became a normal Biblical
creationist poster. Eventually Kalkidas claimed that the ID scam junk
(the Top Six) were no longer of interest to him, and were things that he
no longer considered. Bill made the claim that he had never supported
the ID scam, but as I had noted even though he had been an IDiot from
the time he started posting to TO, it had been some time since Bill had
tried to defend any of the IDiotic claptrap. Pagano claimed that the
Top Six were bogus, and were not the best evidence that the ID scam had.
He tried to put up Dembski's junk instead, but Dembski had "retired"
from the ID scam several years before as an abject failure and none of
his junk made it into the Top Six. The Top Six did not support Pagano's
geocentric old earth creationists beliefs, and Pagano quit posting.
Nyikos was MIA and wasn't posting at that time, so he missed the initial
event, and remained ignorant of what happened for years. He
demonstrated his ignorance after Glenn had mistakenly posted multiple
Top Six pertaining threads in a week. Glenn had been running from the
Top Six for over 4 years by that time, and had tried to avoid ever
posting the junk. He would screw up and post the subjects from time to
time and it was obvious that Glenn didn't really care what the subject
was, he was just wallowing in the denial. I pointed this out as
something stupid that Glenn had just done. Nyikos was running from the
last holy water repost that he had inspired with his incessant repeated
lies about a subject that was over a decade old by that time. Nyikos
couldn't deal with the holy water repost, so he took up Glenn's stupid
behavior. Nyikos claimed that I had not been refuting the Top Six, and
like Dean I had to tell Nyikos that I had never been refuting the Top
Six. All I had ever done was present them as the ID perps had presented
them, and pointed out how even the ID perps could not deal with them in
an honest and straightforward manner. Nyikos had to start lying about
the issue, and it was one of the reasons why I asked that Nyikos be
banned. He also had to start lying about the Ice age stupidity and
everyone should know by now that when Nyikos starts lying about
something he has to lie about it forever. He comes back with the same
lies over and over. It just had to end. The last holy water repost had
temporarily ended his repetitive lies about that topic. When I told him
that if he kept up the stupid harassment that I would ask for him to be
banned. Nyikos requested to be banned by not harassing me about
something new, but he started up with the lies that made the last holy
water repost necessary.

This is when I found out that most of the TO regulars had missed the Top
Six event and like Nyikos had the misconception that I was baggering the
IDiots with some lame refutation. Even Nyikos understands what the Top
Six did because it destroyed his directed panspermic IDiotic nonsense.
In order to justify the Top Six he had to envoke multiple space alien
designers, and tragically some of them had to be god-like space aliens
from another universe in order to account for the Big Bang and fine
tuning. It all just demonstrated how bankrupt directed panspermia had
been all these years as an IDiotic notion. Nearly all IDiots in
existence can do no better than the TO IDiots. You can go see how the
Reason to Believe IDiots (they claim to be intelligent design advocates,
but they do not support teaching the junk in the public schools) do not
deal with the Top Six in an honest and straightforward manner. You can
see them using the same Cambrian explosion god-of-the-gaps denial (#5 of
the Top Six) that Meyer has been putting up for the last 25 years. They
even cite the 25 million year period over half a billion years ago, but
then have to deny that the Cambrian explosion ever happened when it did
happen because they want land plants to be created before sea creatures.
They have to deny the 25 million year time period (that makes it
"impossible" for all the evolution to have occurred) over half a billion
years ago because land plants do not show up in the fossil record until
the Ordovician. The angiosperm plants mentioned in the Bible do not
evolve until after Dinos evolved, less than 200 million years ago. It
doesn't look like any of their recreation notions fit in with what
actually happened. All the related species are supposed to be
recreations of previously created kinds. They need whales to be created
with the other sea creatures before the ancestral mammals existed, so
the gaps in the whale fossil record that clearly indicates that there
were mammalian terrestrial ancestors of whales that existed long before
whales evolved, has to be denied.

The Reason to Believe IDiots do not seem to have very many followers
that want to agree with them. They claim to have created a Biblical
creation model using the ID scam evidence, but their Biblical model
isn't consistent with reality, and they have had to reinterpret the
Bible in order to try to make some things fit.

The Top Six exposed TO IDiots to this reality, and it killed the ID scam
on TO. About the only thing left to discuss is why it took so long, and
why is it that the ID scam still exists? The exIDiots are the only ones
that would be able to give us some relevant answers.

Ron Okimoto

[RonO]

Why not try to give some type of honest explanation for why it took you
so long to decide that you never wanted to be an IDiot? It would likely
apply to the vast majority of Biblical creationists that still want to
support the bogus scam.

What made you fall for the scam? What made you continue to be an IDiot
after the bait and switch scam started to go down on creationist rubes?
The ID perps do not run the bait and switch on the science side, but the
scam is run on their own creationist supporters.

The bait and switch scam should have ended the ID scam, but it continued
for some unknown reason. It was obvious that the only IDiots left after
several years of the bait and switch going down were the ignorant,
incompetent and or dishonest. The Bait and switch pretty much killed
the ISCID. It was supposed to be the IDiotic science organization, but
there were no new papers submitted after 2003. Before the Bait and
switch went down there might have been a dozen IDEA student
organizations at various universities, but I could only find evidence
for 1 existing during the Dover Fiasco, and most of them seemed to have
died the same year that the Bait and Switch started (2002). University
students were not interested in discussing a switch scam that was not
supposed to have anything to do with IDiocy nor creationism.

So, why did the scam continue after there wasn't any honest reason to
keep it going? Why did you continue to be an IDiot even after it was
obvious that the ID perps were just using ID as bait to run in their
switch scam? You had to understand what was going on because it
happened every single time any creationist rubes wanted to teach the
junk. The IDiots at the Discovery Institute have been perpetrating the
stupid bait and switch scam for over 2 decades. They are still claiming
to be able to teach the junk in the public schools, but you know that,
that has never happened for the entire existence of the ID scam. The
guys perpetrating the scam have never even put out a public school
lesson plan demonstrating that they had anything worth teaching, how it
should be taught, what materials they had for teaching it, and how the
students would be evaluated on what they were supposed to have learned.
The Top Six should tell anyone why that never happened. If you aren't
going to teach the best that you have, why would you teach anything at all?

Trying to blame the messenger is as sad as anything else you have tried
to do. You had to have had some reason. It may have just been willful
ignorance and denial of what was going on. You might lie to yourself
about having some lame excuse, but what is the reason that you have to
lie to yourself about the issue?

The saddest thing about the ID creationist scam is that all of those
involved (if it isn't for political power, money or infamy) are involved
because they want to support their religious beliefs, and what have you
had to be in order to do that? Why do you think that the ID scam still
exists?

Ron Okimoto

[jillery]

On Sun, 5 Nov 2023 11:59:36 -0600, RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

>On 11/5/2023 3:08 AM, jillery wrote:

>> On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 12:31:30?PM UTC-4, Lawyer Daggett wrote:

OTOH IMO the following spam is obnoxious enough to consider ignoring
you.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge

[RonO]

Does this mean that you would stoop to calling reality spam because you
missed out on what actually happened when the Top Six was put out by the
ID perps? Can you put up any examples that you do not think are true?
It obviously isn't spam, it is the history and current reality that we
are dealing with.

The ID perp's debacle with the Top Six was likely the most significant
event in the history of TO. Even the ID scam loss in federal court did
not change things like the Top Six did. Kalk and Bill remained IDiots
or were IDiots when they started posting. Pagano just claimed that the
court decision was bogus and kept on as he had always done. Before
Dover Glenn wasn't an IDiot. Glenn was just a plain anti evolution
creationist, but became an IDiot after or during the federal court case
is what I recall. When Glenn first started posting at the turn of the
century Glenn was just a plain vanilla anti evolution creationists.
Glenn would even try to post actual arguments, but Glenn gave up on that
a couple years before Dover. For some reason the exposure of why the ID
perps had been running the bait and switch for years was enough to turn
Glenn into an IDiot in spite of court results indicating that the bait
and switch had been going down for all those years was due to the fact
that the ID science had never existed.

Reality isn't spam when it applies directly to the topic of this thread.

Ron Okimoto

[jillery]

Spam is repetitive comments which ignore comments raised in the posts
to which they are attached, whether or not the spam is true, whether
or not the spam is relevant to the OP. Spam turns nominal proponents
into nominal opponents. You would do as well or better to attach your
spam to your OP, to facilitate talking to yourself.


<snip spam>

[RonO]

Then it wasn't spam because it was all relevant to the thread, and it
was supporting what you had just claimed in terms of invoking poster's
names. It was the history and the basis for putting in the poster's
names in the first place, so it wasn't spam in terms of the topics
presented in this thread that you mentioned in your post. Kalk and Bill
are really the best candidates left to give their explanation for why
they supported the ID scam. Why has the ID scam gone on for over two
decades once the ID perps started running the bait and switch? No
IDiots seem to be interested in the switch scam. Kalk and Bill never
seemed to be interested in the obfuscation and denial switch scam. The
last thing that IDiotic type creationist want to do is teach enough
science so that the students will know what they have to deny. Ohio
dropped the switch scam after Dover. The only times that Texas and
Louisiana have tried to implement the switch scam at the state level
they both screwed up and wanted to teach ID instead, and the ID perps
had to rerun the bait and switch on them and remind them that the switch
scam had nothing to do with ID nor creationism. That happened in 2013,
4 years before the ID perps put out the Top Six.

Ron Okimoto

[jillery]

On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 17:48:02 -0600, RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:

>On 11/6/2023 8:59 AM, jillery wrote:

<snip-a-doodle>

>>>> OTOH IMO the following spam is obnoxious enough to consider ignoring
>>>> you.
>>>
>>> Does this mean that you would stoop to calling reality spam because you
>>> missed out on what actually happened when the Top Six was put out by the
>>> ID perps? Can you put up any examples that you do not think are true?
>>> It obviously isn't spam, it is the history and current reality that we
>>> are dealing with.
>>
>>
>> Spam is repetitive comments which ignore comments raised in the posts
>> to which they are attached, whether or not the spam is true, whether
>> or not the spam is relevant to the OP. Spam turns nominal proponents
>> into nominal opponents. You would do as well or better to attach your
>> spam to your OP, to facilitate talking to yourself.
>>
>>
>> <snip spam>
>

>Then it wasn't spam because it was all relevant to the thread, and it
>was supporting what you had just claimed in terms of invoking poster's
>names.

Incorrect. You completely ignored what I wrote and repeatedly
repeated MOTS from your OP. That makes it spam.

[RonO]

It sounds like you should reread what you wrote, and what I wrote. You
will have to go back up the thread to do it because it is no longer in
this post.

Ron Okimoto

[*Hemidactylus*]

RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:
>
[snip]

>
> Then it wasn't spam because it was all relevant to the thread, and it
> was supporting what you had just claimed in terms of invoking poster's
> names. It was the history and the basis for putting in the poster's
> names in the first place, so it wasn't spam in terms of the topics
> presented in this thread that you mentioned in your post. Kalk and Bill
> are really the best candidates left to give their explanation for why
> they supported the ID scam.

Why would Freon Bill be such a candidate? Does he even post here any more?

You happen to be one of the more knowledgable posters here and provide
informative content from time to time, but these ID perps, scams, rubes
posts of yours are tedious and come across as obsessive. You could save the
reader some time by just shortening it to “ID perps, scams, rubes” instead
of a wall of text and wouldn’t lose any novel information.

[jillery]

On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 02:28:49 +0000, *Hemidactylus*
<ecph...@allspamis.invalid> wrote:

>RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>[snip]

>
>You happen to be one of the more knowledgable posters here and provide
>informative content from time to time, but these ID perps, scams, rubes
>posts of yours are tedious and come across as obsessive. You could save the
>reader some time by just shortening it to “ID perps, scams, rubes” instead
>of a wall of text and wouldn’t lose any novel information.

Kalkidas makes the same point you do above, only more graphically.

[RonO]

On 11/7/2023 11:49 PM, jillery wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 02:28:49 +0000, *Hemidactylus*
> <ecph...@allspamis.invalid> wrote:
>
>> RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> You happen to be one of the more knowledgable posters here and provide
>> informative content from time to time, but these ID perps, scams, rubes
>> posts of yours are tedious and come across as obsessive. You could save the
>> reader some time by just shortening it to “ID perps, scams, rubes” instead
>> of a wall of text and wouldn’t lose any novel information.
>
>
> Kalkidas makes the same point you do above, only more graphically.

That is just how Kalk has lied to himself about reality for a long time.
His reaction to the Top Six demonstrates that he knew that he was
lying to himself in order to remain willfully ignorant. The truth is
just the truth. You can't deny the truth just because you want to claim
that it makes the scam look bad, but not as bad as it actually is. It
is their religious beliefs and source of their moral values that they
are lying about. That basis for the ID scam has always been a sick and
degenerate aspect of the creationist's ID scam.

Has the ID scam ever been demonstrated to be more than the bait and
switch scam that it has been for over 20 years? Who has perpetrated the
bait and switch on their own creationist support base? The ID perps
have obviously only used the "ID science" as bait, and all the IDiotic
creationist rubes have gotten from them is an obfuscation and denial
switch scam that the ID perps tell the rubes has nothing to do with ID
nor creationism. When did it become evident that the IDiots who
supported the ID scam were worse than just stupid idiots? They were all
the type of individual that were trying to claim the moral high ground
by lying about what they were doing. Has TO ever encountered an honest,
competent, and informed IDiotic poster in the history of TO? Willful
ignorance and lying about not trying to support their religious beliefs
is pretty much over the line in terms of acceptable dishonest behavior.
Most of TO was OK with accepting that amount of dishonest behavior, but
I just decided it was time to bluntly state, just how things were. How
stupid and dishonest did Kalk have to be in order to remain an IDiot
until he had his faced rubbed in the fact that he never wanted to
support the ID science? The ID perps killed the ID scam on TO because
they were stupid enough to tell the rubes too much about what they were
selling as bait. Kalkidas is the IDiot that pretended to be hindu in
order to lend credence to the ID scam. Just like Dean claims to never
talk about his religious beliefs, Kalk just claimed that he had never
"claimed" to be hindu. He was just a normal Biblical creationists who
happened to take up the nym Kalkidas and quote from the Vedas.

You likely know that this is not your statement that I was responding to.

This is what you wrote, and my response that you called spam.

QUOTE:

> You illustrate above a good example of how different posters use
different
> reasons for ignoring other posters. I agree invoking other posters'
names
> usually is annoying, especially when it's used as a form of quotemining.
> But it would be difficult to not mention other posters when the topic
> involves the history of T.O., and especially inside an original post
to such
> topics. For these reasons, IMO this particular instance isn't obnoxious
> enough to consider ignoring him. Apparently your mileage varies.
>

END QUOTE:

Ron Okimoto

[RonO]

On 11/7/2023 8:28 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
> RonO <roki...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
> [snip]
>>
>> Then it wasn't spam because it was all relevant to the thread, and it
>> was supporting what you had just claimed in terms of invoking poster's
>> names. It was the history and the basis for putting in the poster's
>> names in the first place, so it wasn't spam in terms of the topics
>> presented in this thread that you mentioned in your post. Kalk and Bill
>> are really the best candidates left to give their explanation for why
>> they supported the ID scam.
>
> Why would Freon Bill be such a candidate? Does he even post here any more?

Bill has posted since he gave up on the ID scam.

>
> You happen to be one of the more knowledgable posters here and provide
> informative content from time to time, but these ID perps, scams, rubes
> posts of yours are tedious and come across as obsessive. You could save the
> reader some time by just shortening it to “ID perps, scams, rubes” instead
> of a wall of text and wouldn’t lose any novel information.
>
>

The truths seems to be tedious. It would be even more tedious if I had
to provide a long description of why they are ID perps and all the
IDiots have been rubes for decades. The ID perps really have been
running a bait and switch scam on IDiotic creationist rubes for over 2
decades. The rubes even understood what the ID perps were doing, but
they still continued to support the scam.

You should be familiar with the Thomas More lawyer's description of what
the ID perps were doing when the Discovery Institute Rep tried to lie
about the situation during the Dover fiasco. The ID perps had produced
a booklet on teaching ID in the public schools in the 1990's. The ID
perp's recommendation then was for the rubes to use the book Of Pandas
and People to teach the junk. The Dover rubes had followed the written
instructions and had purchased a couple dozen books to use to teach
intelligent design, but the ID perps tried to run the bait and switch on
the Dover rubes. It was the first time in over 3 years that the bait
and switch scam failed the ID perps, and the Dover rubes decided to
teach ID in spite of the efforts of the ID perps to run in the switch
scam.

When the Discovery Institute rep lied and claimed that the Discovery
Institute did not support teaching ID in the public schools the Thomas
More lawyer pulled out a copy of the teach ID scam booklet that the
Discovery Institute used to give out with their Wedge video. He quoted
out of the Conclusion of the ID propaganda. The booklet was authored by
Meyer (the director of the ID scam unit), DeWolfe (the head of legal for
the Discovery Institute) and DeForrest (claims to have been a fellow at
the Discovery Institute on his web page). The guide book is still
available at ARN and the Discovery institute never retracted what was
written in it.

http://arn.org/docs/dewolf/guidebook.htm

They even doubled down after Dover and continued to sell the teach ID
scam to the rubes with their current propaganda on teaching ID in the
public schools.

https://www.discovery.org/f/1453/

The bait and switch has kept going down for over 20 years. The ID perps
have only used ID as the bait, but all the rubes ever get is an
obfuscation and denial switch scam that the ID perps tell them has
nothing to do with ID nor creationism.

The Thomas More Lawyer knew this had been going on for years but he
called it a "strategy" instead of the scam that it was.

https://ncse.ngo/discovery-institute-and-thomas-more-law-center-squabble-aei-forum

It had participants laughing, and you can read the NCSE article to get
the whole story, but the Thomas More Lawyer not only demonstrated that
the ID perps had been selling the teach ID scam, he described what they
had been doing since Ohio in 2002.

QUOTE:
RICHARD THOMPSON (TMLC): They wrote a book, titled "Intelligent Design
in Public School Science Curricula." The conclusion of that book was
that, um:

"Moreover, as the previous discussion demonstrates, school boards have
the authority to permit, and even encourage, teaching about design
theory as an alternative to Darwinian evolution -- and this includes the
use of textbooks such as Of Pandas and People that present evidence for
the theory of intelligent design." ...and I could go further. But, you
had Discovery Institute people actually encouraging the teaching of
intelligent design in public school systems. Now, whether they wanted
the school boards to teach intelligent design or mention it, certainly
when you start putting it in writing, that writing does have consequences.

In fact, several of the members, including Steve Meyer, agreed to be
expert witnesses, also prepared expert witness reports, then all at once
decided that they weren't going to become expert witnesses, at a time
after the closure of the time we could add new expert witnesses. So it
did have a strategic impact on the way we could present the case, cause
they backed out, when the court no longer allowed us to add new expert
witnesses, which we could have done.

Now, Stephen Meyer, you know, wanted his attorney there, we said because
he was an officer of the Discovery Institute, he certainly could have
his attorney there. But the other experts wanted to have attorneys, that
they were going to consult with, as objections were made, and not with
us. And no other expert that was in the Dover case, and I'm talking
about the plaintiffs, had any attorney representing them.

So that caused us some concern about exactly where was the heart of the
Discovery Institute. Was it really something of a tactical decision, was
it this strategy that they've been using, in I guess Ohio and other
places, where they've pushed school boards to go in with intelligent
design, and as soon as there's a controversy, they back off with a
compromise. And I think what was victimized by this strategy was the
Dover school board, because we could not present the expert testimony we
thought we could present
END QUOTE:

"Was it really something of a tactical decision, was it this strategy
that they've been using, in I guess Ohio and other places, where they've
pushed school boards to go in with intelligent design, and as soon as
there's a controversy, they back off with a compromise."

The More lawyer was fully aware that the ID perps had been running the
bait and switch because it had gone down every single time that any
rubes had wanted to teach the junk. No one has ever gotten any ID
science to teach from the ID perps.

The ID perps knew what they were doing. Wells wrote up a report on the
first bait and switch scam on Ohio and claimed in the report that it was
decided before they gave their dog and pony show supporting ID that they
would not propose teaching the junk, and instead offer the rubes the
switch scam. Phillip Johnson had made teaching ID in the public schools
part of his Wedge strategy, but when it came time to put up or shut up
they started running the bait and switch.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110814145400/http:/www.creationists.org/archived-obsolete-pages/2002-03-11-OSBE-wells.html

QUOTE:
Steve Meyer and I (in consultation with others) had decided ahead of
time that we would not push for including intelligent design (ID) in the
state science standards, but would propose instead that the standards
include language protecting teachers who choose to teach the controversy.
END QUOTE:

The only creationist supporting the teach ID scam to quit was Phillip
Johnson who retired from his Blog at ARN a month after the bait and
switch went down on the Ohio creationist rubes. All the others didn't
do anything to stop the scam and became ID perps. The sad thing is that
they likely ran the bait and switch on Phillip Johnson too. When the
bait and switch failed in Dover Phillip Johnson came out of retirement
and supported teaching ID in the public schools. He sat in the federal
court room every day and understood why the bait and switch had been
necessary. He quit supporting teaching ID and admitted that the ID
science had never existed.

So the ID perps have been ID perps for over 20 years, and they have
never quit running the bait and switch on the hapless creationist rubes
that still believe their teach ID scam propaganda.

It may be tedious to you, but trying to be nicer and having to politely
explain why the ID perps are worse than perps and the creationist rubes
are worse than IDiots, just isn't an option. By the time I started
using that terminology Dover was hitting the fan and the bait and switch
had been going down for around 3 years. Dover demonstrated that the
descriptions were apt and appropriate.

Ron Okimoto

[Öö Tiib]

On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 16:11:29 UTC+2, RonO wrote:
> Kalk and Bill should provide their opinion on why the ID creationist
> scam still has a group of creationists pushing the scam and continuing
> to run the bait and switch on creationist rubes. The ID perps are still
> claiming to have the ID science to teach in the public schools, but all
> they have used ID for is as the bait in order to run in a switch scam
> that they claim has nothing to do with the ID science.
>

For me it has stopped to be scam and they are not perps and rubes
quite some time ago.

Majority of people who bother to study it a bit agree that properties and
abilities of living organisms can be altered through several of ways.
1) wild evolution (wast majority of species clearly evolved wildly from
ancestors),
2) breeding (wast majority of agricultural crops and domestic animals
clearly were breed from wild species),
3) design (global market of genetic engineering was USD 3 billions in 2021),
... medicine, diet, crafting, surgeries, symbiotes, parasites, training, etc.
Do you disagree? It is done and happening so it exists.

The whole issue with ID is that there are no theory who, when, where,
how, why designed something. They hoped that they will have such
theory but were mistaken. That does not mean that such theory is
impossible. ID clearly isn't when global market of it will perhaps reach
10 billions this decade. Just that the theory of someone but humans
doing it here does not exist. And I suspect it won't ever. But I am
mistaken several times per day. Aren't you? So all that perp-rube-scam
stuff is too excessive.

[RonO]

On 11/11/2023 6:30 AM, Öö Tiib wrote:
> On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 16:11:29 UTC+2, RonO wrote:
>> Kalk and Bill should provide their opinion on why the ID creationist
>> scam still has a group of creationists pushing the scam and continuing
>> to run the bait and switch on creationist rubes. The ID perps are still
>> claiming to have the ID science to teach in the public schools, but all
>> they have used ID for is as the bait in order to run in a switch scam
>> that they claim has nothing to do with the ID science.
>>
> For me it has stopped to be scam and they are not perps and rubes
> quite some time ago.

The ID perps have never stopped running the bait and switch scam on the
creationist rubes. They keep selling the teach ID creationist scam
using ID as only the bait in order to run in the obfuscation and denial
switch scam. It is the ID perps that tell the creationist rubes that
the switch scam has nothing to do with ID nor creationism.

They have not stopped using ID as only the bait since they started
running the bait and switch scam over 2 decades ago. Even the Dover
court decision demonstrating that no ID science had ever existed stopped
the bait and switch. It turned out that none of the IDiots wanted there
to be any ID science. It all would have just been more science for
creationist to deny.

>
> Majority of people who bother to study it a bit agree that properties and
> abilities of living organisms can be altered through several of ways.
> 1) wild evolution (wast majority of species clearly evolved wildly from
> ancestors),
> 2) breeding (wast majority of agricultural crops and domestic animals
> clearly were breed from wild species),
> 3) design (global market of genetic engineering was USD 3 billions in 2021),
> ... medicine, diet, crafting, surgeries, symbiotes, parasites, training, etc.
> Do you disagree? It is done and happening so it exists.
>
> The whole issue with ID is that there are no theory who, when, where,
> how, why designed something. They hoped that they will have such
> theory but were mistaken. That does not mean that such theory is
> impossible. ID clearly isn't when global market of it will perhaps reach
> 10 billions this decade. Just that the theory of someone but humans
> doing it here does not exist. And I suspect it won't ever. But I am
> mistaken several times per day. Aren't you? So all that perp-rube-scam
> stuff is too excessive.
>

It turned out that the ID perps never wanted to produce any scientific
theory, nor do any intelligent design science. Any valid scientific
theory of intelligent design science would have just been more science
for the IDiotic creationist rubes to deny. The TO IDiotic reaction to
the ID perp's Top Six should tell any sane and competent person that,
that has been the case forever. The ID perps had to run the bait and
switch as the only means they could think of to keep the creationist
political efforts going. They all understood that ID was just a name
change, and that all they ever had was the same junk that had failed the
scientific creationists that had tried to teach the junk before them.

The obfuscation and denial switch scam was all that they could think of
to keep doing to keep the political ploy running.

Just imagine if Meyer had ever been able to demonstrate scientifically,
that his designer had been responsible for the Cambrian explosion
diversification of bilateria during a 25 million year time period over
half a billion years ago. Most of the IDiotic support still comes from
young earth creationists, and all Meyer would be giving to them would be
more science that they had to deny. Even the old earth creationists at
Reason To Believe wouldn't be able to deal with any Cambrian explosion
creation science because they still claim that land plants were created
before the sea creatures created during the Cambrian explosion. The
designer of the Cambrian explosion is not the designer of the Bible
because land plants do not show up until the Ordovician, and the
angiosperms mentioned in the Bible do not show up until after dinos had
evolved among the terrestrial vertebrates.

This is why that when the Top Six evidences for intelligent design were
given to the IDiots on TO, in their order in which they must have
occurred, the TO IDiots quit being IDiots. It was obvious that none of
them wanted to support any ID science that the ID perps claimed was
possible.

Even other ID perps can't stand the Top Six as given to the creationist
rubes. Sewell dropped out IC (#4) and the Cambrian explosion (#5) and
put the rest out of chronological order in order to deal with them, and
Brian Miller dropped out the Big Bang (#1). The removal of the Big Bang
was expected because the IDiotic type creationist rubes have already
dropped the Big Bang from the state's science standards along with
biological evolution in Kansas as science topics that they do not want
their kids to have to understand. There was always little chance that
the Big Bang IDiotic gap denial would have ever been taught in the
public schools.

It looks like there should be a review of history in order for TO
regulars to come to grips with the current reality, a reality that had
always existed.

Ron Okimoto

[Öö Tiib]

On Saturday, 11 November 2023 at 16:16:37 UTC+2, RonO wrote:
> On 11/11/2023 6:30 AM, Öö Tiib wrote:
> > On Saturday, 4 November 2023 at 16:11:29 UTC+2, RonO wrote:
> >> Kalk and Bill should provide their opinion on why the ID creationist
> >> scam still has a group of creationists pushing the scam and continuing
> >> to run the bait and switch on creationist rubes. The ID perps are still
> >> claiming to have the ID science to teach in the public schools, but all
> >> they have used ID for is as the bait in order to run in a switch scam
> >> that they claim has nothing to do with the ID science.
> >>
> > For me it has stopped to be scam and they are not perps and rubes
> > quite some time ago.
> The ID perps have never stopped running the bait and switch scam on the
> creationist rubes. They keep selling the teach ID creationist scam
> using ID as only the bait in order to run in the obfuscation and denial
> switch scam. It is the ID perps that tell the creationist rubes that
> the switch scam has nothing to do with ID nor creationism.
>
> They have not stopped using ID as only the bait since they started
> running the bait and switch scam over 2 decades ago. Even the Dover
> court decision demonstrating that no ID science had ever existed stopped
> the bait and switch. It turned out that none of the IDiots wanted there
> to be any ID science. It all would have just been more science for
> creationist to deny.
>

Bait of what? How can ID science be bait if no "IDiot" wanted there be
any ID science? That is what it is ... creationists want the evolution not
taught as it contradicts with what they believe. But ID is that lot of it
indeed did evolve from (some undefined set of) common (designed)
decent for at least half billion of years and someone tinkered with
it at unclear times and to unclear extent. That is what Meyer and
Behe seem to say. Am I wrong? So they do not say what creationists
want to hear.

It is not same, creation science is YEC stuff, flood geology, catastrophism,
relatively recent de novo creation of universe and species. It is bad theory
as it contradict with all evidence hopelessly. Basically last thursdayism,
everything was made very recently only to look like it had formed and
evolved billions of years. Too hard to talk that seriously, or form any
plausible claims there and so the ID split out of it.

> The obfuscation and denial switch scam was all that they could think of
> to keep doing to keep the political ploy running.
>
> Just imagine if Meyer had ever been able to demonstrate scientifically,
> that his designer had been responsible for the Cambrian explosion
> diversification of bilateria during a 25 million year time period over
> half a billion years ago. Most of the IDiotic support still comes from
> young earth creationists, and all Meyer would be giving to them would be
> more science that they had to deny. Even the old earth creationists at
> Reason To Believe wouldn't be able to deal with any Cambrian explosion
> creation science because they still claim that land plants were created
> before the sea creatures created during the Cambrian explosion. The
> designer of the Cambrian explosion is not the designer of the Bible
> because land plants do not show up until the Ordovician, and the
> angiosperms mentioned in the Bible do not show up until after dinos had
> evolved among the terrestrial vertebrates.
>

I agree that all YEC would disagree with that Cambrian creation/altering as
well. Old earth creationist from RTB would probably also disagree with lot
of it. So what? That difference is why ID split from creation science. That
is not scam but difference of views.

> This is why that when the Top Six evidences for intelligent design were
> given to the IDiots on TO, in their order in which they must have
> occurred, the TO IDiots quit being IDiots. It was obvious that none of
> them wanted to support any ID science that the ID perps claimed was
> possible.
>
> Even other ID perps can't stand the Top Six as given to the creationist
> rubes. Sewell dropped out IC (#4) and the Cambrian explosion (#5) and
> put the rest out of chronological order in order to deal with them, and
> Brian Miller dropped out the Big Bang (#1). The removal of the Big Bang
> was expected because the IDiotic type creationist rubes have already
> dropped the Big Bang from the state's science standards along with
> biological evolution in Kansas as science topics that they do not want
> their kids to have to understand. There was always little chance that
> the Big Bang IDiotic gap denial would have ever been taught in the
> public schools.
>
> It looks like there should be a review of history in order for TO
> regulars to come to grips with the current reality, a reality that had
> always existed.
>

Yes ... they disagree among themselves what they want the "ID
theory" to be. That is normal after these failing and fruitless
decades. Kids became adults, young people became old but they
still have nothing. Must feel frustrating. But I still don't see them as
scammers, just unsuccessful and/or mistaken.

[RonO]

When the ID scam first started in the mid 1990's the main group of ID
perps had been involved with the publication of "Of Pandas and People".
The book "Of Pandas and People" was initiated after the scientific
creationist loss in Federal Court in Arkansas. In the judges decision
it was noted that even though the state had wanted to teach scientific
creationism there was the issue that there were no suitable sources that
could be used to teach the junk in the public schools. All the
scientific creationist literature was laced with Bible verses and
biblical mythology and were not suitable for use in the public schools.
Of Pandas and people was first advertised as a remedy to this lack of
having a creationist text book. It was supposed to be scientific
creationism without the Biblical references.

Before the book was published the Supreme court ruled on the Louisiana
creation science law, and determined that creation science wasn't any
science worth teaching in the public schools. As documented in the
Dover federal court case "Of Pandas and People" was transformed into an
intelligent design creationist text, by changing creationism to
intelligent design throughout the book. "cdesign proponentsists" was
one of the most laughable incomplete edits. Kenyon was one of the main
authors, Thaxton was the editor, Meyer wrote the teachers notes, and
Behe admitted in court that he had written parts of the book, but had
not gotten credit for his efforts. The sad thing about the birth of the
intelligent design creationist scam is that those involved knew that
they did not have to change the name of what they were supporting if
they actually had any real creation science worth calling science.
Kenyon had written some of the legal briefs and his science had already
been determined to be deficient by the Supreme court. The court did
throw the creationists a bone, by stating that if there was any
legitimate creation science produced that it could be taught in the
public schools. Planetary mobiles cannot be removed from public school
classrooms just because they support the heliocentric Christian heretics
(that include many of the YEC Christian denominations). Legitimate
creation science could be taught in the public schools, but those
involved with "Of Pandas and People" realized that they didn't have any
legitimate science in that book.

Phillip Johnson became acquainted with the group involved with
publishing "Of Pandas and People" and was supposedly instrumental in
hooking them up with the Discovery Institute and getting them funding
for their effort to continue to get creationism taught in the public
schools. The ID perps consider Phillip Johnson to be the "godfather" of
the ID scam. Johnson is also credited with developing the Wedge
strategy, and Johnson has claimed that getting ID taught in the public
schools was part of the Wedge strategy.

My guess is that the ID perps understood that just changing the name of
what they were pushing wouldn't be enough to fool anyone, but Johnson
may have been fooled. I am pretty sure that Johnson would not have
joined the effort if he did not understand that they were trying to get
creationism taught in the public schools. It was the main reason it was
included in the Wedge strategy. The Wedge was supposed to split open
the existing political structure and make an opening for their desired
theocracy to take it's rightful place in our society. I've put up the
original mission statement of the ID scam unit at the Discovery
Institute, and it was essentially what they had in the Wedge Document
that got leaked in 1998. I remember looking up the mission statement on
their web site because the ID scam program director (it may have been
Jay Richards) claimed that the Wedge document wasn't controversial
because it was just the same as their mission statement. At the time
the Discovery Institute web site still had the original mission
statement up and it was accompanied by their logo of a depiction of God
and Adam.

http://web.archive.org/web/19980114111554/http://discovery.org/crsc/aboutcrsc.html

It looked like the entire organization knew that they were pushing
creationism at that time.

If you look at the Top Six you should recognize them as the same
god-of-the-gaps denial that the scientific creationists had to resort to
when their creation science efforts failed to amount to anything. Their
age of the earth and flood geology science were dismal failures. It
turned out that they didn't want to do any science and scientific
creationism became a misnomer. Gish routinely had the Big Bang (#1 of
the Top Six) in his Gish gallop. He tried to cram as much denial as he
could into his "debate" speel. He had his origin of life denial (#3),
flagellum is a designed machine (#4), multiple gaps in the fossil record
denial bits (#6), and the Cambrian explosion (#5) that he would
routinely trot out. I do not recall a fine tuning argument (#2) likely
because it takes too long to describe as a sensible argument. Gish
would never try to build anything positive out of the denial. Each
topic was supposed to be taken independently and forgotten once he moved
onto the next denial topic.

The ID perps adopted the same god-of-the-gaps arguments, and kept
feeding them to the rubes as independent bits of denial. They had to do
this because their major support base was the same one that supported
the scientific creationists, and the young earth creationist support
base could not deal with the gap denial as anything but gap denial.
Nothing positive was ever supposed to come out of the denial. It is
just a plain and simple fact that most Biblical creationists do not want
to believe in the designer that fills the Top Six gaps. The Answers In
Genesis young earth creationists may still use the Big Bang in their
creation museum, but they never wanted to believe in the god responsible
for creating the Big Bang over 13 billion years ago. The Big Bang has
been one of the science topics that has been dropped out of the public
school science standards by IDiotic type creationists in Kansas, and I
recall Texas and Oklahoma proposing to do the same thing. This just
means that the ID perps never wanted to accomplish any creation science.

Any intelligent design creation science that they would have been able
to verify would have just been more science for the creationist rubes to
deny, and the ID perps needed the creationist rube support in order to
make their desired theocracy a reality. It is why no IDiotic science
was ever attempted. No testable hypotheses were proposed and tested.

The effect of the Top Six on the TO IDiots indicates that none of them
ever wanted the ID perps to be successful in any IDiotic science. The
god that fills the Top Six gaps is not their Biblical god.

Over 13 billion years ago some designer created the Big Bang (#1).
During the Big Bang the designer had to do some fine tuning (#2). It
took over 8 billion years before the elements that compose our solar
system were created in dying stars, and another round of fine tuning was
needed 4.5 billion years ago to make sure that the earth was just the
right size and composition and had just the right orbit around a star of
the right size. 3.8 billion years ago this designer created life on our
planet (#3). Life existed as microbial lifeforms for billions of years,
and over a billion years ago the flagellum was designed among those
microbes (#4). Within the last billion years the designer started
experimenting with multicellular life forms and designed, and after
developing the plan for bilateral animals this designer was responsible
for the diversification of bilateral animals during the Cambrian
explosion, a 25 million year period over half a billion years ago (#5).
This means that the designer did this long before land plants were
designed in the Ordovician, and the same fossil record indicates that
angiosperms (the Biblical crop plants) were not designed until after the
designer had designed dinosaurs less than 200 million years ago. This
designer obviously designed a lot of land animals before deciding to
fill the gaps in the fossil record for the last 10 million years and
design humans.

You should be able to figure out why the Top Six killed IDiocy on TO
once the ID perps gave the rubes the ID scam junk as a related group in
their logical order in which they must have occurred.

ID has only been used as bait. The creationist rubes take the bait, but
once the ID perps have the hook in, they never had any ID science that
the creationist rubes would have wanted to teach, so they only give the
rubes their obfuscation and denial switch scam that the ID perps claim

has nothing to do with the ID science.

No creationist rubes that have ever wanted to teach the promised ID
science have ever gotten any ID science to teach. The ID perps have
never produced an intelligent design public school lesson plan that
would tell the rubes what they had to teach, how they wanted it taught,
what materials could be used to teach it, and how the students would be
evaluated on what they had learned. The creationist rubes have kept
taking the bait even though they never knew what they were going to get
to teach.

It turned out that the ID perps never had any science that the
creationist rubes would have wanted to teach.

Creation Science was mostly YEC, but so is intelligent design
creationism. The majority of support for the ID creationist scam has
been YEC from the very beginning of the acceptance of name change. The
Top Six god-of-the-gaps best evidence for intelligent design were all
used by the scientific creationists. Both of the main authors of "Of
Pandas and People" were YEC, and they were the ones that made the name
change to intelligent design.

Most of the Dover creationist rubes were YEC, and had taken up the ID
scam because it was close enough to what they wanted to teach.

>
>> The obfuscation and denial switch scam was all that they could think of
>> to keep doing to keep the political ploy running.
>>
>> Just imagine if Meyer had ever been able to demonstrate scientifically,
>> that his designer had been responsible for the Cambrian explosion
>> diversification of bilateria during a 25 million year time period over
>> half a billion years ago. Most of the IDiotic support still comes from
>> young earth creationists, and all Meyer would be giving to them would be
>> more science that they had to deny. Even the old earth creationists at
>> Reason To Believe wouldn't be able to deal with any Cambrian explosion
>> creation science because they still claim that land plants were created
>> before the sea creatures created during the Cambrian explosion. The
>> designer of the Cambrian explosion is not the designer of the Bible
>> because land plants do not show up until the Ordovician, and the
>> angiosperms mentioned in the Bible do not show up until after dinos had
>> evolved among the terrestrial vertebrates.
>>
> I agree that all YEC would disagree with that Cambrian creation/altering as
> well. Old earth creationist from RTB would probably also disagree with lot
> of it. So what? That difference is why ID split from creation science. That
> is not scam but difference of views.

The Reason to Believe old earth creationists claim to be IDiots, but
they never wanted to teach the junk in the public schools they claim
that they only wanted to use intelligent design to create their Biblical
creation model. Most creationists do not like the model that they came
up with, and they have to deny the order of creation of the Top Six.
They need land plants to be created before sea creatures, so even though
they use the Cambrian explosion gap denial (you can find articles on
their web page that cite the same 25 million year period over half a
billion years ago as being too short of a time to evolve all the taxa)
they have to deny that science because land plants do not show up until
the Ordovician.

https://reasons.org/explore/publications/articles/summary-of-reasons-to-believes-testable-creation-model-1

They have to reinterpret the Bible and make claims like the sun and moon
were not created on the 4th day after land plants, but were only made
visible after land plants were created. They have their recreation
model where similar species are explained as being recreations of
previous kinds, but this recreation model fails for thing like whale
evolution. For some reason the Reason to Believe IDiots need whales to
be created with the sea creatures before land vertebrates are created.
Sternberg has spent his IDiotic life since joining the ID scam, back in
2007, defining all the gaps in the whale fossil record, but for the
Reason to Believe IDiots these gaps just can't exist because they show
whales evolving after land animals.

Even old earth creationist like Bill couldn't deal with the Top Six in
their order of occurrence.

>
>> This is why that when the Top Six evidences for intelligent design were
>> given to the IDiots on TO, in their order in which they must have
>> occurred, the TO IDiots quit being IDiots. It was obvious that none of
>> them wanted to support any ID science that the ID perps claimed was
>> possible.
>>
>> Even other ID perps can't stand the Top Six as given to the creationist
>> rubes. Sewell dropped out IC (#4) and the Cambrian explosion (#5) and
>> put the rest out of chronological order in order to deal with them, and
>> Brian Miller dropped out the Big Bang (#1). The removal of the Big Bang
>> was expected because the IDiotic type creationist rubes have already
>> dropped the Big Bang from the state's science standards along with
>> biological evolution in Kansas as science topics that they do not want
>> their kids to have to understand. There was always little chance that
>> the Big Bang IDiotic gap denial would have ever been taught in the
>> public schools.
>>
>> It looks like there should be a review of history in order for TO
>> regulars to come to grips with the current reality, a reality that had
>> always existed.
>>
> Yes ... they disagree among themselves what they want the "ID
> theory" to be. That is normal after these failing and fruitless
> decades. Kids became adults, young people became old but they
> still have nothing. Must feel frustrating. But I still don't see them as
> scammers, just unsuccessful and/or mistaken.
>

They have been running the bait and switch on creationist rubes for over
20 years. If that doesn't make someone a scammer, what would? They
have never delivered the promised ID science. They have never stopped
claiming to have the ID science to teach, and so they have never stopped
running the bait and switch. After Dover they doubled down and produced
their teach ID scam propaganda claiming that ID could still be taught in
the public schools, and that the judgement was wrong, and ID was a
legitimate scientific theory.

This is still up at the the ID scam web site. They last updated it in
2021, but they have since reformated the site and it looks like they
have reverted to the 2018 edition. No matter what they claim they
always run the bait and switch on the creationist rubes, and all the
rubes get is an obfuscation and denial switch scam that the ID perps
tell them has nothing to do with any ID science.

https://www.discovery.org/f/1453/

You should note the ID perp claim of not "mandating" ID to be taught.
After Dover they started claiming that they did not want ID to be
required to be taught, and they had that claim in the education policy.
You can find their old education policy on the teach ID scam propaganda.
This policy was changed in 2013 when both Louisiana and Texas wanted
to teach intelligent design in their public schools, and both states
claimed that they were not requiring ID to be taught, they were just
providing materials that teachers could use to teach the junk. The ID
perps ran the bait and switch on them anyway and ID perps removed this
paragraph from their education policy that was up on the Discovery
Institute web page at the time.

QUOTE:
Although Discovery Institute does not advocate requiring
the teaching of intelligent design in public schools, it
does believe there is nothing unconstitutional about
voluntarily discussing the scientific theory of design in
the classroom. In addition, the Institute opposes efforts
to persecute individual teachers who may wish to discuss
the scientific debate over design in an objective and
pedagogically appropriate manner.
END QUOTE:

It was obvious in Texas and Louisiana that it didn't matter if ID was
required or not, the ID perps did not want to teach it in any form or
under any circumstances.

The ID perps could not give up on the Wedge strategy. They knew that
they had nothing that the creationists would want to teach, and that
they had never wanted to accomplish any ID science, so when it came time
to put up or shut up they started running the bait and switch scam on
creationist rubes. ID has only been used as the bait for over 2
decades. The ID perps have never attempted to use ID for more than that.

The Top Six presented the way that the ID perps were stupid enough to
present them were just too foul for the IDiots to be attracted to any
longer, and they quit being IDiots.

Ron Okimoto