Elderly need better access to mental health, substance abuse care - CNN

[dav...@agent.com]

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/10/iom-elderly-need-better-access-to-mental-health-substance-abuse-care/

Elderly need better access to mental health, substance abuse care

Baby boomers in need of mental health & substance abuse services
may have a hard time finding health professionals to provide that
care unless the treatment system is revamped, according to a new
study from the Inst. of Medicine. "The Mental Health & Substance
Use Workforce for Older Americans: In Whose Hands?" report concludes
that Medicare/Medicaid payment codes must be revised to ensure
counseling care & other critical services are covered so that Drs
are willing to treat patients with these conditions. "There's a
conspicuous lack of national attention to ensuring that there's a
large enough health care work force trained to care for older adults
with mental health & substance use conditions," said Dan G. Blazer,
one of the report authors & J.P. Gibbons Prof of Psych/Behavioral
Sciences at Duke U Med Ctr in Durham NC. "These conditions are
relatively common, they can be costly, and they can have profound
negative impacts on people's health and well-being. This report's
a wake-up call that we need to prepare now or our older population
& their extended families will suffer the consequences."

The rpt centers on older adults who had at least one mental health
or substance use issue. It found that while most primary care Drs
regularly see older patients, they have little training/education
in mental health/substance use in the geriatric population. The IOM
committee estimates between 5.6 & 8 mil elderly Americans have at
least 1 mental health or substance abuse/misuse issue. Most common
are depressive disorders & dementia-related problem. Allowing these
problems to go unresovled can mean higher costs & negative health
effects. For example, elderly people with untreated depression are
less likely to take their meds for other diseases like diabetes or
high blood pressure & therefore are more likely to need repeated,
costly hospitalizations. The committee recommends organizations
that accredit health & social service schools & license providers
make sure all health care providers working with older patients
can recognize signs/symptoms indicating a problem. They recommend
$$$ incentives & mentoring programs be put in place to encourage
doctors & other healthcare pros to get into the field - or if they
are already there, stay.

Dr. Eric De Jonge, dir. of Geriatrics at MedStar Washington Hosp
Ctr, says a shortage of geriatricians & other trained personnel is
a critical problem & that the health care workforce must be better
prepared to handle the special mental health needs of an elderly
population. "You need to have a team of staff with a variety of
skills & includes home health aides/nurses/nurse practitioners/
social workers/psychologists & physicians such as psychiatrists &
geriatricians... Due to the shortage of geriatric psychiatrists -
which are profoundly rare - & geriatricians, we need to elevate
the skills of all these other team members, tap in to expertise &
increase the skills of all this other workforce." More mentor-
ships & $$$ incentives to specialize in elder care is critical,
De Jong said, since nationwide about 40% of geriatric fellowships
& training slots are currently unfilled. "You have to level the
financial playing field for med students/residents who are coming
out of training. They make roughly twice as much money if they go
into specialties that are procedure based - fancy procedures which
have much higher reimbursement. People with lots of debt come out
of med school & choose a specialty that'll help 'em pay off their
debt. Psychiatrists & geriatricians are at the lowest end of the
pay scale."

The American Med Assn says starting in '11, the country's 78 mil
baby boomers, born between 1946-64, will start turning 65-y-o at
the rate of 3-4 mil/year. An article on the AMA website says:
"The stats are staggering. By age 65, around 2/3 of all seniors
have at least one chronic disease & see 7 Drs. 20% of those older
than 65 have 5 or more chronic diseases, see 14 Drs - & average
40 Dr. visits/year. Situations like these are a nightmare for
patients & the physicians who treat them. Variations in therapies,
medications and even differing instructions can be confusing,
conflicting and hard for patients to remember." The IOM recommend-
ations the Dept of Health & Human Serivces, which sponsored the
report, makes sure its agencies take responsibility for building
the mental health/substance use workforce for the elderly in order
to provide competent care, & called on the agency to restore funding
of the Older Adult Mental Health Targeted Capacity Expansion Grant
program to the Substance Abuse & Mental Health Services Admin. The
report also calls on Congress to designate funds/earmark funds for
programs that specifically target the elderly saying, "Congress
should appropriate funds for the Patient Protection & Affordable
Care Act workforce provisions that authorize training, scholarship,
& loan forgiveness for individuals who work with or are preparing
to work with older adults who have mental health/substance use
conditions."

The American Psychological Assn (APA) has 3 member psychologists
that were part of the committee. �This IOM report provides a foun-
dation for our nation to build a psychology and mental health work-
force to meet the needs of our rapidly growing and increasingly
diverse aging population,� said APA CEO Norman B. Anderson. �The
report reflects successful advocacy by the mental and behavioral
health community and includes key policy recommendations, which
the APA looks forward to promoting in partnership with federal,
professional, & community leaders.� In September, the APA plans
to brief members of Congress on the report's key findings and
recommendations.

[Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org]

On Thursday, July 12, 2012 8:00:25 AM UTC+1, (unknown) wrote:
> http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/10/iom-elderly-need-better-access-to-mental-health-substance-abuse-care/

Wait, you're the guy who wants to kill children
so that the world is roomier for senior citizens?
Who are a crowd of junkies and loons, you're
telling us?

My best guess is that you are performing a parody
of "social darwinism" to make evolution scientists
look bad - although "social darwinism" is a
political and moral doctrine, not a scientific
opinion, and is one that churchgoers are very
happy with when it means that they can ignore
what Jesus said about charity to poor people.
(For other religions, substitute your god or
your prophet. They mostly have the same
message, and mostly have spectacular expensive
temples to preach it in.)

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 05:57:16 -0400, Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc
talk-o...@moderators.isc.org wrote
(in article <1c1199db-1e66-4c16...@googlegroups.com>):

I think that the same people who wrote the NandoBot created an new bot, even
sillier than the first.

--
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

[Kalkidas]

On 7/12/2012 12:00 AM, dav...@agent.com wrote:

[jillery]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:56:53 -0700, Kalkidas <e...@joes.pub> wrote:

>On 7/12/2012 12:00 AM, dav...@agent.com wrote:

Yet another one, sadly.

[Kermit]

On Jul 12, 2:57 am, "Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-

orig...@moderators.isc.org" <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, July 12, 2012 8:00:25 AM UTC+1, (unknown) wrote:

> >http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/10/iom-elderly-need-better-acce...

>
> Wait, you're the guy who wants to kill children
> so that the world is roomier for senior citizens?
> Who are a crowd of junkies and loons, you're
> telling us?
>
> My best guess is that you are performing a parody
> of "social darwinism" to make evolution scientists
> look bad - although "social darwinism" is a
> political and moral doctrine, not a scientific
> opinion, and is one that churchgoers are very
> happy with when it means that they can ignore
> what Jesus said about charity to poor people.
> (For other religions, substitute your god or
> your prophet.  They mostly have the same
> message, and mostly have spectacular expensive
> temples to preach it in.)

I think he is one of those confused folks (we've seen others) who see
a news item, come to some ...unconventional conclusion, and then pass
on the critical information, with no clue that we won't derive the
same "obvious" conclusion ourselves.

Kermit

[Kermit]

On Jul 12, 11:56 am, Kalkidas <e...@joes.pub> wrote:
> On 7/12/2012 12:00 AM, dav...@agent.com wrote:

No, not a troll, a crank. If you were the only Creationist posting
here you'd be considered a crank also, but there are so many of you
guys that you get your own category.

A troll's primary purpose in life is apparently to irritate or
infuriate as many people as possible, although perhaps of a specific
targeted group. Like you, Dave may not expect to convert many people
here, but irritating us is not your primary goal, nor his, but rather
converting us to your way of thinking.

Kermit

[Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org]

And can I say that in fact I /don't/ take
a stand against taxpayer subsidy of mental
health care or substance abuse treatment
for senior citizens. I was just being
whimsical.

[Kermit]

On Jul 12, 12:00 am, dav...@agent.com wrote:
> http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/10/iom-elderly-need-better-acce...

> that were part of the committee. �This IOM report provides a foun-

> dation for our nation to build a psychology and mental health work-
> force to meet the needs of our rapidly growing and increasingly

> diverse aging population,� said APA CEO Norman B. Anderson. �The

> report reflects successful advocacy by the mental and behavioral
> health community and includes key policy recommendations, which
> the APA looks forward to promoting in partnership with federal,

> professional, & community leaders.�  In September, the APA plans

> to brief members of Congress on the report's key findings and
> recommendations.

Are you arguing for single payer, universal health care? Because that
would the conclusion I derive from this article (and others).

Eubie Blake, ragtime piano player and composer, died of a cold two
weeks after his 96th birthday. He had already had his kids,his
grandkids,his great-grandkids. if he hadn't gotten sick he might have
lived to be ninety-eight!

Killing off old folks does little to reduce the population or change
the general population's health. Killing off young people is a waste
of resources, is evil if it is avoidable, and encourages women to have
more kids (compare Western birth rates to third world nation birth
rates).

Kermit

“If I'd known I was going to live this long, I would have taken better
care of myself.”
-- Eubie Blake

[*Hemidactylus*]

On 07/13/2012 12:10 PM, Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc

Quite a few seniors would take issue with *tax* supported subsidy of
anything. It would be better to let China foot the bill so future
generations can pay the piper later...when we are all dead and buried.

I swear if time travel is ever made possible in the future people are
going to travel back and blanket party the lot of us for our
shortsighted stupidity. I think that alone proves time travel is impossible.

[Kalkidas]

He posts a lot of off-topic stuff without even indicating it by "OT:".

t.o. seems to be allowing more and more of that crap.

[Bob Casanova]

On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:58:08 -0700, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by Kalkidas <e...@joes.pub>:

The robomoderator has never specifically forbidden it (which
would create an interesting task for what is essentially a
counter of crossposts, with a few groups filters but with
zero ability to analyze content. As has been noted to you in
the past).
--

Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless

[Glenn]

"Bob Casanova" <nos...@buzz.off> wrote in message
news:3pj308pflj5v1jcc5...@4ax.com...

That isn't exactly true either. T.O. moderation is not exlusively automated. DIG
has on occasion banned posters for off topic content, although he has not
precisely specified what content is forbidden. And "fnord" alone refutes your
claim of zero ability to analyze content. Perhaps easier and less buggy to
develop than fnord would be to reject any post containing "OT" in the subject
line. I do agree that designing a complex program to filter by content would be
an interesting task. I doubt the moderator would agree as a practical matter.

[Richard Clayton]

It's because the creationist posts just aren't as entertaining as they
used to be. We have to take our amusement where we can find it.

--
[The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.]
Richard Clayton
"I keep six honest serving men (they taught me all I knew); their names
are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who." — Rudyard Kipling

[Kalkidas]

On 7/15/2012 7:41 AM, Richard Clayton wrote:
> On 13-Jul-12 13:58, Kalkidas wrote:
>> On 7/13/2012 9:06 AM, Kermit wrote:
>>> On Jul 12, 11:56 am, Kalkidas <e...@joes.pub> wrote:
>>>> On 7/12/2012 12:00 AM, dav...@agent.com wrote:
>>>
>>> No, not a troll, a crank. If you were the only Creationist posting
>>> here you'd be considered a crank also, but there are so many of you
>>> guys that you get your own category.
>>>
>>> A troll's primary purpose in life is apparently to irritate or
>>> infuriate as many people as possible, although perhaps of a specific
>>> targeted group. Like you, Dave may not expect to convert many people
>>> here, but irritating us is not your primary goal, nor his, but rather
>>> converting us to your way of thinking.
>>
>> He posts a lot of off-topic stuff without even indicating it by "OT:".
>>
>> t.o. seems to be allowing more and more of that crap.
>
> It's because the creationist posts just aren't as entertaining as they
> used to be. We have to take our amusement where we can find it.

There is no "we". There is only you, who seem to think that problems are
solved by insulting those who point them out.

[Bob Casanova]

On Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:24:18 -0700, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by "Glenn"
<glenns...@invalid.invalid>:

Correct in essence, but specifying a single word(?) by which
to accept or reject a post hardly qualifies a content
analysis and moderation, at least in the sense those terms
are used in the newsgroups. IMHO *actual* content analysis
would require a really sophisticated AI.

Your other points are mostly well-taken. I'll accept that
DIG has banned in the past based on content, but IIRC there
were very few instances and each required multiple
transgressions, and the repeated ignoring of warnings,
before any action was taken. IMHO the presence of "OT"
posts, so long as they don't become the majority, would seem
to be fully in keeping with the spirit of not only t.o, but
of any similar "soft focus" newsgroup, and it's been noted
repeatedly that there seems to be no subject which is
*completely* off-topic here. Of course, YMMV.

[Bob Casanova]

On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:16:07 -0700, the following appeared

in talk.origins, posted by Kalkidas <e...@joes.pub>:

And you, who seems to think there's a problem to be pointed
out. (And exactly how was his post an insult, and to whom?)

And I believe the combination of "he" and "you" results in
"we" from either your perspective or his.

[Richard Clayton]

If you think my views are not representative of the majority of t.o
posters -- and specifically of the pro-science posters -- feel free to
put it to a vote. Care to place a wager on the outcome?

> who seem to think that problems are
> solved by insulting those who point them out.

That's rich, coming from you. Remember this thread?

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/talk.origins/BlqIcdTuJ3k/SG5kGizgh30J

Or is this another lovely case of ISKCON's "Do As We Say And Not As We
Do" policy?

--
[The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.]
Richard Clayton
"I keep six honest serving men (they taught me all I knew); their names

are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who." � Rudyard Kipling

[Glenn]

On Jul 15, 11:40�am, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:24:18 -0700, the following appeared
> in talk.origins, posted by "Glenn"

> <glennshel...@invalid.invalid>:

Perhaps, although it is not clear to me that intelligence is ever
artificial. And the "natural intelligence" that can be indirectly
observed here seems to have problems with content analysis on a
regular basis, so perhaps we could not expect much more from an "AI".
They are not all created equal. The problems of such moderation
techniques seem somewhat self-evident, and would range from simple one
word identification to a god-like ability to interpret and qualify
every form of communication of information within not only whole
threads but everything that has ever been written in the history of
mankind, and beyond. I have no idea of what you mean by "really
sophisticated". The ability is there to auto-moderate content, but you
might not like the outcome when another would. For instance, rejecting
any post that included the word Nazi or Hitler with atheist or
Christian in any part of the post would eliminate most of those
threads that attempt to associate Hitler with one group. That is off-
topic for the group as I see it. And there have been many such
threads. In perhaps all cases, as you might imagine, such moderation
comes down to a matter of taste, what rules you are willing to be
restrained by and what consequences you are prepared to accept.

>
> Your other points are mostly well-taken. I'll accept that
> DIG has banned in the past based on content, but IIRC there
> were very few instances and each required multiple
> transgressions, and the repeated ignoring of warnings,
> before any action was taken. IMHO the presence of "OT"
> posts, so long as they don't become the majority, would seem
> to be fully in keeping with the spirit of not only t.o, but
> of any similar "soft focus" newsgroup, and it's been noted
> repeatedly that there seems to be no subject which is
> *completely* off-topic here. Of course, YMMV.
> --

I pay no heed to what people "note", no matter how often the repeat
it. There are clearly completely off-topic subjects, such as wood
working and what I ate for breakfast. You refer to "the newsgroup" yet
talk.origins is not operated or maintained by the participants of the
newsgroup. DIG has also stated that he does not regard posts as
acceptable simply because the subject header is prefaced with "OT".
And as a "natural" intelligent "program", he may be regarded by some
as "sophisticated" but to others he may be seen in a variety of
dissimilar ways. I am on record as having respect for how he does his
job, and realize that some of it is unseen. But it is not clear to me
that an automated program could not be made with reasonably little
difficulty that could make similar warnings, decisions based on
comparable reasons. You might not like the outcome, but as I said some
do not like DIG's "outcome". And just as with DIG, certain actions of
such a program could still be challenged or reversed.

[dav...@agent.com]

>> that were part of the committee. �This IOM report provides a foun-

>> dation for our nation to build a psychology and mental health work-
>> force to meet the needs of our rapidly growing and increasingly

>> diverse aging population,� said APA CEO Norman B. Anderson. �The

>> report reflects successful advocacy by the mental and behavioral
>> health community and includes key policy recommendations, which
>> the APA looks forward to promoting in partnership with federal,

>> professional, & community leaders.� �In September, the APA plans

>> to brief members of Congress on the report's key findings and
>> recommendations.
>
>Are you arguing for single payer, universal health care? Because that
>would the conclusion I derive from this article (and others).

No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
most of the problems looming before us. Stopping the suppression
of measles, flu, malaria & TB is one way to shorten life spans.
It would also help with the problem of the proliferation of defective
forms. It would help to stop enabling drug addicts & alcoholics,
and it would also facilitate humility.

[Mark Isaak]

On 8/8/12 8:53 PM, dav...@agent.com wrote:
> [...]

> No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
> most of the problems looming before us. Stopping the suppression
> of measles, flu, malaria & TB is one way to shorten life spans.
> It would also help with the problem of the proliferation of defective
> forms.

By "defective forms", I assume you mean "people"?

Shortening life spans would not significantly help any of the problems
you mention. Increasing the age of women's first childbearing would
help tremendously. The latter can be accomplished by educating girls
and women more.

--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
"It is certain, from experience, that the smallest grain of natural
honesty and benevolence has more effect on men's conduct, than the most
pompous views suggested by theological theories and systems." - D. Hume

[Kermit]

On 8 Aug, 20:53, dav...@agent.com wrote:

> �Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >dav...@agent.com wrote:
> >>http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/10/iom-elderly-need-better-acce...
>
> >> Elderly need better access to mental health, substance abuse care
>
> >> Baby boomers in need of mental health & substance abuse services
> >> may have a hard time finding health professionals to provide that
> >> care unless the treatment system is revamped, according to a new

> >> study from the Inst. of Medicine. �"The Mental Health & Substance

> >> Use Workforce for Older Americans: In Whose Hands?" report concludes
> >> that Medicare/Medicaid payment codes must be revised to ensure
> >> counseling care & other critical services are covered so that Drs

> >> are willing to treat patients with these conditions. �"There's a

> >> conspicuous lack of national attention to ensuring that there's a
> >> large enough health care work force trained to care for older adults
> >> with mental health & substance use conditions," said Dan G. Blazer,
> >> one of the report authors & J.P. Gibbons Prof of Psych/Behavioral

> >> Sciences at Duke U Med Ctr in Durham NC. �"These conditions are

> >> relatively common, they can be costly, and they can have profound
> >> negative impacts on people's health and well-being. This report's
> >> a wake-up call that we need to prepare now or our older population
> >> & their extended families will suffer the consequences."
>
> >> The rpt centers on older adults who had at least one mental health
> >> or substance use issue. It found that while most primary care Drs
> >> regularly see older patients, they have little training/education
> >> in mental health/substance use in the geriatric population. The IOM
> >> committee estimates between 5.6 & 8 mil elderly Americans have at
> >> least 1 mental health or substance abuse/misuse issue. Most common

> >> are depressive disorders & dementia-related problem. �Allowing these

> >> problems to go unresovled can mean higher costs & negative health
> >> effects. For example, elderly people with untreated depression are
> >> less likely to take their meds for other diseases like diabetes or
> >> high blood pressure & therefore are more likely to need repeated,

> >> costly hospitalizations. �The committee recommends organizations

> >> that accredit health & social service schools & license providers
> >> make sure all health care providers working with older patients

> >> can recognize signs/symptoms indicating a problem. �They recommend

> >> $$$ incentives & mentoring programs be put in place to encourage
> >> doctors & other healthcare pros to get into the field - or if they
> >> are already there, stay.
>
> >> Dr. Eric De Jonge, dir. of Geriatrics at MedStar Washington Hosp
> >> Ctr, says a shortage of geriatricians & other trained personnel is
> >> a critical problem & that the health care workforce must be better
> >> prepared to handle the special mental health needs of an elderly

> >> population. �"You need to have a team of staff with a variety of

> >> skills & includes home health aides/nurses/nurse practitioners/
> >> social workers/psychologists & physicians such as psychiatrists &
> >> geriatricians... Due to the shortage of geriatric psychiatrists -
> >> which are profoundly rare - & geriatricians, we need to elevate
> >> the skills of all these other team members, tap in to expertise &

> >> increase the skills of all this other workforce." �More mentor-

> >> ships & $$$ incentives to specialize in elder care is critical,
> >> De Jong said, since nationwide about 40% of geriatric fellowships

> >> & training slots are currently unfilled. �"You have to level the

> >> financial playing field for med students/residents who are coming
> >> out of training. They make roughly twice as much money if they go
> >> into specialties that are procedure based - fancy procedures which
> >> have much higher reimbursement. People with lots of debt come out
> >> of med school & choose a specialty that'll help 'em pay off their
> >> debt. Psychiatrists & geriatricians are at the lowest end of the
> >> pay scale."
>
> >> The American Med Assn says starting in '11, the country's 78 mil
> >> baby boomers, born between 1946-64, will start turning 65-y-o at

> >> the rate of 3-4 mil/year. �An article on the AMA website says:
> >> "The stats are staggering. By age 65, around 2/3 of all seniors
> >> have at least one chronic disease & see 7 Drs. 20% of those older
> >> than 65 have 5 or more chronic diseases, see 14 Drs - & average
> >> 40 Dr. visits/year. Situations like these are a nightmare for
> >> patients & the physicians who treat them. Variations in therapies,
> >> medications and even differing instructions can be confusing,

> >> conflicting and hard for patients to remember." �The IOM recommend-

> >> ations the Dept of Health & Human Serivces, which sponsored the
> >> report, makes sure its agencies take responsibility for building
> >> the mental health/substance use workforce for the elderly in order
> >> to provide competent care, & called on the agency to restore funding
> >> of the Older Adult Mental Health Targeted Capacity Expansion Grant

> >> program to the Substance Abuse & Mental Health Services Admin. �The

> >> report also calls on Congress to designate funds/earmark funds for
> >> programs that specifically target the elderly saying, "Congress
> >> should appropriate funds for the Patient Protection & Affordable
> >> Care Act workforce provisions that authorize training, scholarship,
> >> & loan forgiveness for individuals who work with or are preparing
> >> to work with older adults who have mental health/substance use
> >> conditions."
>
> >> The American Psychological Assn (APA) has 3 member psychologists

> >> that were part of the committee. �This IOM report provides a foun-

> >> dation for our nation to build a psychology and mental health work-
> >> force to meet the needs of our rapidly growing and increasingly

> >> diverse aging population,� said APA CEO Norman B. Anderson. �The

> >> report reflects successful advocacy by the mental and behavioral
> >> health community and includes key policy recommendations, which
> >> the APA looks forward to promoting in partnership with federal,

> >> professional, & community leaders.� �In September, the APA plans

> >> to brief members of Congress on the report's key findings and
> >> recommendations.
>
> >Are you arguing for single payer, universal health care? Because that
> >would the conclusion I derive from this article (and others).
>
> No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
> most of the problems looming before us.

How would it stop anthropogenic global warming?
Peak oil?
Damage from ozone, especially to trees?
Acidification of the oceans?

If you are thinking only of a lower population, I remind you:
The population was growing just fine before the widespread use of
vaccines after WWII.
Women who lose kids before they reach adulthood tend to have more
babies.

> �Stopping the suppression

> of measles, flu, malaria & TB is one way to shorten life spans.

Yes.
So would not fixing any of our problems.

If simply killing people is not your goal, you have to show why
allowing people to die unnecessarily from communicable disease helps
anything. Please cite some evidence.

> It would also help with the problem of the proliferation of defective
> forms.

How so? Please show that it would have significant action in selecting
people for anything other than resistance to communicable diseases.

> �It would help to stop enabling drug addicts & alcoholics,

How?
Or, if you can't explain how, please provide evidence that it has this
effect.

> and it would also facilitate humility.

Because humans were so humble before the late twentieth century.
<rolls eyes>

>
> >Eubie Blake, ragtime piano player and composer, died of a cold two
> >weeks after his 96th birthday. He had already had his kids,his
> >grandkids,his great-grandkids. if he hadn't gotten sick he might have
> >lived to be ninety-eight!
>
> >Killing off old folks does little to reduce the population or change
> >the general population's health. Killing off young people is a waste
> >of resources, is evil if it is avoidable, and encourages women to have
> >more kids (compare Western birth rates to third world nation birth
> >rates).
>
> >Kermit
>

> >�If I'd known I was going to live this long, I would have taken better
> >care of myself.�
> >-- Eubie Blake

Kermit

[Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org]

On Friday, August 10, 2012 12:01:59 AM UTC+1, Kermit wrote:
> > No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
> > most of the problems looming before us.
>
> How would it stop anthropogenic global warming?

It's mainly old people that have the heating turned up.

...Also, the sound volume on the T.V.

[dav...@agent.com]

Kermit <unrestra...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> dav...@agent.com wrote:

>>  Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >dav...@agent.com wrote:
>> >>http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/10/iom-elderly-need-better-acce...
>>
>> >> Elderly need better access to mental health, substance abuse care
>>
>> >> Baby boomers in need of mental health & substance abuse services
>> >> may have a hard time finding health professionals to provide that
>> >> care unless the treatment system is revamped, according to a new

>> >> study from the Inst. of Medicine.  "The Mental Health & Substance

>> >> Use Workforce for Older Americans: In Whose Hands?" report concludes
>> >> that Medicare/Medicaid payment codes must be revised to ensure
>> >> counseling care & other critical services are covered so that Drs

>> >> are willing to treat patients with these conditions.  "There's a

>> >> conspicuous lack of national attention to ensuring that there's a
>> >> large enough health care work force trained to care for older adults
>> >> with mental health & substance use conditions," said Dan G. Blazer,
>> >> one of the report authors & J.P. Gibbons Prof of Psych/Behavioral

>> >> Sciences at Duke U Med Ctr in Durham NC.  "These conditions are

>> >> relatively common, they can be costly, and they can have profound
>> >> negative impacts on people's health and well-being. This report's
>> >> a wake-up call that we need to prepare now or our older population
>> >> & their extended families will suffer the consequences."
>>
>> >> The rpt centers on older adults who had at least one mental health
>> >> or substance use issue. It found that while most primary care Drs
>> >> regularly see older patients, they have little training/education
>> >> in mental health/substance use in the geriatric population. The IOM
>> >> committee estimates between 5.6 & 8 mil elderly Americans have at
>> >> least 1 mental health or substance abuse/misuse issue. Most common

>> >> are depressive disorders & dementia-related problem.  Allowing these

>> >> problems to go unresovled can mean higher costs & negative health
>> >> effects. For example, elderly people with untreated depression are
>> >> less likely to take their meds for other diseases like diabetes or
>> >> high blood pressure & therefore are more likely to need repeated,

>> >> costly hospitalizations.  The committee recommends organizations

>> >> that accredit health & social service schools & license providers
>> >> make sure all health care providers working with older patients

>> >> can recognize signs/symptoms indicating a problem.  They recommend

>> >> $$$ incentives & mentoring programs be put in place to encourage
>> >> doctors & other healthcare pros to get into the field - or if they
>> >> are already there, stay.
>>
>> >> Dr. Eric De Jonge, dir. of Geriatrics at MedStar Washington Hosp
>> >> Ctr, says a shortage of geriatricians & other trained personnel is
>> >> a critical problem & that the health care workforce must be better
>> >> prepared to handle the special mental health needs of an elderly

>> >> population.  "You need to have a team of staff with a variety of

>> >> skills & includes home health aides/nurses/nurse practitioners/
>> >> social workers/psychologists & physicians such as psychiatrists &
>> >> geriatricians... Due to the shortage of geriatric psychiatrists -
>> >> which are profoundly rare - & geriatricians, we need to elevate
>> >> the skills of all these other team members, tap in to expertise &

>> >> increase the skills of all this other workforce."  More mentor-

>> >> ships & $$$ incentives to specialize in elder care is critical,
>> >> De Jong said, since nationwide about 40% of geriatric fellowships

>> >> & training slots are currently unfilled.  "You have to level the

>> >> financial playing field for med students/residents who are coming
>> >> out of training. They make roughly twice as much money if they go
>> >> into specialties that are procedure based - fancy procedures which
>> >> have much higher reimbursement. People with lots of debt come out
>> >> of med school & choose a specialty that'll help 'em pay off their
>> >> debt. Psychiatrists & geriatricians are at the lowest end of the
>> >> pay scale."
>>
>> >> The American Med Assn says starting in '11, the country's 78 mil
>> >> baby boomers, born between 1946-64, will start turning 65-y-o at

>> >> the rate of 3-4 mil/year.  An article on the AMA website says:
>> >> "The stats are staggering. By age 65, around 2/3 of all seniors
>> >> have at least one chronic disease & see 7 Drs. 20% of those older
>> >> than 65 have 5 or more chronic diseases, see 14 Drs - & average
>> >> 40 Dr. visits/year. Situations like these are a nightmare for
>> >> patients & the physicians who treat them. Variations in therapies,
>> >> medications and even differing instructions can be confusing,

>> >> conflicting and hard for patients to remember."  The IOM recommend-

>> >> ations the Dept of Health & Human Serivces, which sponsored the
>> >> report, makes sure its agencies take responsibility for building
>> >> the mental health/substance use workforce for the elderly in order
>> >> to provide competent care, & called on the agency to restore funding
>> >> of the Older Adult Mental Health Targeted Capacity Expansion Grant

>> >> program to the Substance Abuse & Mental Health Services Admin.  The

>> >> report also calls on Congress to designate funds/earmark funds for
>> >> programs that specifically target the elderly saying, "Congress
>> >> should appropriate funds for the Patient Protection & Affordable
>> >> Care Act workforce provisions that authorize training, scholarship,
>> >> & loan forgiveness for individuals who work with or are preparing
>> >> to work with older adults who have mental health/substance use
>> >> conditions."
>>
>> >> The American Psychological Assn (APA) has 3 member psychologists
>> >> that were part of the committee. �This IOM report provides a foun-
>> >> dation for our nation to build a psychology and mental health work-
>> >> force to meet the needs of our rapidly growing and increasingly
>> >> diverse aging population,� said APA CEO Norman B. Anderson. �The
>> >> report reflects successful advocacy by the mental and behavioral
>> >> health community and includes key policy recommendations, which
>> >> the APA looks forward to promoting in partnership with federal,

>> >> professional, & community leaders.�  In September, the APA plans

>> >> to brief members of Congress on the report's key findings and
>> >> recommendations.
>>
>> >Are you arguing for single payer, universal health care? Because that
>> >would the conclusion I derive from this article (and others).
>>
>> No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
>> most of the problems looming before us.
>
>How would it stop anthropogenic global warming?
>Peak oil?
>Damage from ozone, especially to trees?
>Acidification of the oceans?

What will the world be like with 8 or 9 billion?

>If you are thinking only of a lower population, I remind you:
>The population was growing just fine before the widespread use of
>vaccines after WWII.
>Women who lose kids before they reach adulthood tend to have more
>babies.
>

>>  Stopping the suppression
>> of measles, flu, malaria & TB is one way to shorten life spans.
>
>Yes.
>So would not fixing any of our problems.
>
>If simply killing people is not your goal, you have to show why
>allowing people to die unnecessarily from communicable disease helps
>anything. Please cite some evidence.
>
>> It would also help with the problem of the proliferation of defective
>> forms.
>
>How so? Please show that it would have significant action in selecting
>people for anything other than resistance to communicable diseases.
>

>>  It would help to stop enabling drug addicts & alcoholics,
>
>How?
>Or, if you can't explain how, please provide evidence that it has this
>effect.
>
>> and it would also facilitate humility.
>
>Because humans were so humble before the late twentieth century.
><rolls eyes>
>
>>
>> >Eubie Blake, ragtime piano player and composer, died of a cold two
>> >weeks after his 96th birthday. He had already had his kids,his
>> >grandkids,his great-grandkids. if he hadn't gotten sick he might have
>> >lived to be ninety-eight!
>>
>> >Killing off old folks does little to reduce the population or change
>> >the general population's health. Killing off young people is a waste
>> >of resources, is evil if it is avoidable, and encourages women to have
>> >more kids (compare Western birth rates to third world nation birth
>> >rates).
>>
>> >Kermit
>>

>> >“If I'd known I was going to live this long, I would have taken better
>> >care of myself.”
>> >-- Eubie Blake
>
>Kermit

[Kermit]

On 10 Aug, 08:05, "Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-

My wife and I have decided that closed caption is the way to go. We
can have the sound on, so we hear the explosions, and still be able to
hear what's said, whatever the booming sound track overlay is playing,
or the accents of the actors.

Kermit

[Kermit]

Worse, not only because of more people, but because the unsustainable
practices we inflict on the planet and our children will have had the
time to do more damage.

You have yet to explain how not vaccinating people will:
1. Be politically possible,
2. Improves the general health of the population,
3. Teaches humility,
4. Actually reduces the maximum population.

If you can' t explain the mechanism behind any of these claims, just
please provide a link to the evidence that any of these is true.

Kermit

[dav...@agent.com]

>Worse, not only because of more people, but because the unsustainable
>practices we inflict on the planet and our children will have had the
>time to do more damage.
>
>You have yet to explain how not vaccinating people will:
>1. Be politically possible,
>2. Improves the general health of the population,
>3. Teaches humility,
>4. Actually reduces the maximum population.

The first step is everyone needs to understand WHY
we need to do it, and we're not there yet. After
the WHY is understood, then we'll all decide HOW.

[Ernest Major]

In message <lgc538lejeb7qjpul...@4ax.com>,
dav...@agent.com writes

>>> >> >> that were part of the committee. �This IOM report provides a foun-

>>> >> >> dation for our nation to build a psychology and mental health work-
>>> >> >> force to meet the needs of our rapidly growing and increasingly

>>> >> >> diverse aging population,� said APA CEO Norman B. Anderson. �The

>>> >> >> report reflects successful advocacy by the mental and behavioral
>>> >> >> health community and includes key policy recommendations, which
>>> >> >> the APA looks forward to promoting in partnership with federal,

>>> >> >> professional, & community leaders.� �In September, the APA plans

>>> >> >> to brief members of Congress on the report's key findings and
>>> >> >> recommendations.
>>>
>>> >> >Are you arguing for single payer, universal health care? Because that
>>> >> >would the conclusion I derive from this article (and others).
>>>
>>> >> No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
>>> >> most of the problems looming before us.
>>>
>>> >How would it stop anthropogenic global warming?
>>> >Peak oil?
>>> >Damage from ozone, especially to trees?
>>> >Acidification of the oceans?
>>>
>>> What will the world be like with 8 or 9 billion?
>>>
>>Worse, not only because of more people, but because the unsustainable
>>practices we inflict on the planet and our children will have had the
>>time to do more damage.
>>
>>You have yet to explain how not vaccinating people will:
>>1. Be politically possible,
>>2. Improves the general health of the population,
>>3. Teaches humility,
>>4. Actually reduces the maximum population.
>
>The first step is everyone needs to understand WHY
>we need to do it, and we're not there yet. After
>the WHY is understood, then we'll all decide HOW.
>

Then why are you campaigning for a particular (and ineffective) HOW?

>
>>If you can' t explain the mechanism behind any of these claims, just
>>please provide a link to the evidence that any of these is true.
>>
>>Kermit
>

--
alias Ernest Major

[alextangent]

On Aug 9, 4:53�am, dav...@agent.com wrote:

>
> No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
> most of the problems looming before us. �Stopping the suppression
> of measles, flu, malaria & TB is one way to shorten life spans.
> It would also help with the problem of the proliferation of defective
> forms. �It would help to stop enabling drug addicts & alcoholics,
> and it would also facilitate humility.

Can you differentiate what you have just written from a similar
philosophy executed in the 1930s and 40s in Germany?

[Kermit]

On 20 Aug, 14:56, dav...@agent.com wrote:
> Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > dav...@agent.com wrote:
> >> Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > dav...@agent.com wrote:

> >> >> >> that were part of the committee. �This IOM report provides a foun-

> >> >> >> dation for our nation to build a psychology and mental health work-
> >> >> >> force to meet the needs of our rapidly growing and increasingly

> >> >> >> diverse aging population,� said APA CEO Norman B. Anderson. �The

> >> >> >> report reflects successful advocacy by the mental and behavioral
> >> >> >> health community and includes key policy recommendations, which
> >> >> >> the APA looks forward to promoting in partnership with federal,

> >> >> >> professional, & community leaders.� �In September, the APA plans

When I first saw a post of yours, you were complaining about the
problems of overpopulation, and I agreed with you. That was before you
expressed concerns about things poor species health or whatever, and
proposing a bizarre fix that is morally, politically, and financially
questionable, and probably would not help any of them (and likely make
them worse).

Are there too many of us on this planet? I think so. Preliminary data,
however, suggests that achieving a healthy environment, long lives,
school for the kids, a respectable job for the parent(s), and
***access to birth control*** stabilizes the population.

I am all for discussing:
1. What the ideal range for the population would be. This requires a
study of the effects of population as it scales up, and how we can
determine these. International as well as intranational processes are
different, and present different problems. A nation dealing with a
religious minority in its own territory needs methods different from
persuading another country to behave differently.

2. If natural responses to the culture and the rest of the environment
are not sufficient to curtail population growth, determine ways to
encourage adults limiting the number of their offspring. Consideration
needs to be given to both compassion and efficacy. You once called my
suggestion of tax penalties (rather than the breaks we now have in the
US) for kids to be more Draconian than you own suggestion of letting
some of them die from preventable diseases. I find your suggestion
desturbing and also counterproductive (if population control is your
real goal).

In any event, it's largely a moot subject. We will probably have a
serious reduction in population in a generation or so, and if we
recover, it will be a different world, and other people will have to
deal with this issue, in their own circumstances.

Kermit

[Kermit]

For one thing, they weren't proposing it as a means of population
control.

Although "defective forms" certainly captures the spirit of those
times.

Kermit

[dav...@agent.com]

It's just an attention getting device....a grabber.

[dav...@agent.com]

Kermit <unrestra...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> dav...@agent.com wrote:

>> �Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >dav...@agent.com wrote:
>> >>http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/10/iom-elderly-need-better-acce...
>>
>> >> Elderly need better access to mental health, substance abuse care
>>
>> >> Baby boomers in need of mental health & substance abuse services
>> >> may have a hard time finding health professionals to provide that
>> >> care unless the treatment system is revamped, according to a new

>> >> study from the Inst. of Medicine. �"The Mental Health & Substance

>> >> Use Workforce for Older Americans: In Whose Hands?" report concludes
>> >> that Medicare/Medicaid payment codes must be revised to ensure
>> >> counseling care & other critical services are covered so that Drs

>> >> are willing to treat patients with these conditions. �"There's a

>> >> conspicuous lack of national attention to ensuring that there's a
>> >> large enough health care work force trained to care for older adults
>> >> with mental health & substance use conditions," said Dan G. Blazer,
>> >> one of the report authors & J.P. Gibbons Prof of Psych/Behavioral

>> >> Sciences at Duke U Med Ctr in Durham NC. �"These conditions are

>> >> relatively common, they can be costly, and they can have profound
>> >> negative impacts on people's health and well-being. This report's
>> >> a wake-up call that we need to prepare now or our older population
>> >> & their extended families will suffer the consequences."
>>
>> >> The rpt centers on older adults who had at least one mental health
>> >> or substance use issue. It found that while most primary care Drs
>> >> regularly see older patients, they have little training/education
>> >> in mental health/substance use in the geriatric population. The IOM
>> >> committee estimates between 5.6 & 8 mil elderly Americans have at
>> >> least 1 mental health or substance abuse/misuse issue. Most common

>> >> are depressive disorders & dementia-related problem. �Allowing these

>> >> problems to go unresovled can mean higher costs & negative health
>> >> effects. For example, elderly people with untreated depression are
>> >> less likely to take their meds for other diseases like diabetes or
>> >> high blood pressure & therefore are more likely to need repeated,

>> >> costly hospitalizations. �The committee recommends organizations

>> >> that accredit health & social service schools & license providers
>> >> make sure all health care providers working with older patients

>> >> can recognize signs/symptoms indicating a problem. �They recommend

>> >> $$$ incentives & mentoring programs be put in place to encourage
>> >> doctors & other healthcare pros to get into the field - or if they
>> >> are already there, stay.
>>
>> >> Dr. Eric De Jonge, dir. of Geriatrics at MedStar Washington Hosp
>> >> Ctr, says a shortage of geriatricians & other trained personnel is
>> >> a critical problem & that the health care workforce must be better
>> >> prepared to handle the special mental health needs of an elderly

>> >> population. �"You need to have a team of staff with a variety of

>> >> skills & includes home health aides/nurses/nurse practitioners/
>> >> social workers/psychologists & physicians such as psychiatrists &
>> >> geriatricians... Due to the shortage of geriatric psychiatrists -
>> >> which are profoundly rare - & geriatricians, we need to elevate
>> >> the skills of all these other team members, tap in to expertise &

>> >> increase the skills of all this other workforce." �More mentor-

>> >> ships & $$$ incentives to specialize in elder care is critical,
>> >> De Jong said, since nationwide about 40% of geriatric fellowships

>> >> & training slots are currently unfilled. �"You have to level the

>> >> financial playing field for med students/residents who are coming
>> >> out of training. They make roughly twice as much money if they go
>> >> into specialties that are procedure based - fancy procedures which
>> >> have much higher reimbursement. People with lots of debt come out
>> >> of med school & choose a specialty that'll help 'em pay off their
>> >> debt. Psychiatrists & geriatricians are at the lowest end of the
>> >> pay scale."
>>
>> >> The American Med Assn says starting in '11, the country's 78 mil
>> >> baby boomers, born between 1946-64, will start turning 65-y-o at

>> >> the rate of 3-4 mil/year. �An article on the AMA website says:
>> >> "The stats are staggering. By age 65, around 2/3 of all seniors
>> >> have at least one chronic disease & see 7 Drs. 20% of those older
>> >> than 65 have 5 or more chronic diseases, see 14 Drs - & average
>> >> 40 Dr. visits/year. Situations like these are a nightmare for
>> >> patients & the physicians who treat them. Variations in therapies,
>> >> medications and even differing instructions can be confusing,

>> >> conflicting and hard for patients to remember." �The IOM recommend-

>> >> ations the Dept of Health & Human Serivces, which sponsored the
>> >> report, makes sure its agencies take responsibility for building
>> >> the mental health/substance use workforce for the elderly in order
>> >> to provide competent care, & called on the agency to restore funding
>> >> of the Older Adult Mental Health Targeted Capacity Expansion Grant

>> >> program to the Substance Abuse & Mental Health Services Admin. �The

>> >> report also calls on Congress to designate funds/earmark funds for
>> >> programs that specifically target the elderly saying, "Congress
>> >> should appropriate funds for the Patient Protection & Affordable
>> >> Care Act workforce provisions that authorize training, scholarship,
>> >> & loan forgiveness for individuals who work with or are preparing
>> >> to work with older adults who have mental health/substance use
>> >> conditions."
>>
>> >> The American Psychological Assn (APA) has 3 member psychologists

>> >> that were part of the committee. �This IOM report provides a foun-

>> >> dation for our nation to build a psychology and mental health work-
>> >> force to meet the needs of our rapidly growing and increasingly

>> >> diverse aging population,� said APA CEO Norman B. Anderson. �The

>> >> report reflects successful advocacy by the mental and behavioral
>> >> health community and includes key policy recommendations, which
>> >> the APA looks forward to promoting in partnership with federal,

>> >> professional, & community leaders.� �In September, the APA plans

>> >> to brief members of Congress on the report's key findings and
>> >> recommendations.
>>
>> >Are you arguing for single payer, universal health care? Because that
>> >would the conclusion I derive from this article (and others).
>>
>> No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
>> most of the problems looming before us.
>
>How would it stop anthropogenic global warming?
>Peak oil?
>Damage from ozone, especially to trees?
>Acidification of the oceans?
>
>If you are thinking only of a lower population, I remind you:
>The population was growing just fine before the widespread use of
>vaccines after WWII.
>Women who lose kids before they reach adulthood tend to have more
>babies.
>

>> �Stopping the suppression

>> of measles, flu, malaria & TB is one way to shorten life spans.
>
>Yes.
>So would not fixing any of our problems.
>
>If simply killing people is not your goal, you have to show why
>allowing people to die unnecessarily from communicable disease helps
>anything. Please cite some evidence.
>
>> It would also help with the problem of the proliferation of defective
>> forms.
>
>How so? Please show that it would have significant action in selecting
>people for anything other than resistance to communicable diseases.
>

>> �It would help to stop enabling drug addicts & alcoholics,

>
>How?
>Or, if you can't explain how, please provide evidence that it has this
>effect.
>
>> and it would also facilitate humility.
>
>Because humans were so humble before the late twentieth century.
><rolls eyes>

It facilitates humility because it puts one temporarily out of
commission, and allows one to confront one's mortality.

>>
>> >Eubie Blake, ragtime piano player and composer, died of a cold two
>> >weeks after his 96th birthday. He had already had his kids,his
>> >grandkids,his great-grandkids. if he hadn't gotten sick he might have
>> >lived to be ninety-eight!
>>
>> >Killing off old folks does little to reduce the population or change
>> >the general population's health. Killing off young people is a waste
>> >of resources, is evil if it is avoidable, and encourages women to have
>> >more kids (compare Western birth rates to third world nation birth
>> >rates).
>>
>> >Kermit
>>

>> >�If I'd known I was going to live this long, I would have taken better

[jillery]

No surprise there. Did you really think you were fooling anybody?

[dav...@agent.com]

In other words, you just want to pass the buck, and let someone
else pay the price for poor planning! Fsck 'em, let 'em eat cake!

[dav...@agent.com]

Kermit <unrestra...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>alextangent <b...@rivadpm.com> wrote:
>> dav...@agent.com wrote:
>>
>> > No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
>> > most of the problems looming before us. Stopping the suppression
>> > of measles, flu, malaria & TB is one way to shorten life spans.
>> > It would also help with the problem of the proliferation of defective
>> > forms. It would help to stop enabling drug addicts & alcoholics,
>> > and it would also facilitate humility.
>>
>> Can you differentiate what you have just written from a similar
>> philosophy executed in the 1930s and 40s in Germany?
>
>For one thing, they weren't proposing it as a means of population
>control. Although "defective forms" certainly captures the spirit of
>those times.

I define defective forms as those who don't stand up to the
onslaught of the diseases. When people decide which are
defective, then you get your Hilterism (misspelled on purpose).

[dav...@agent.com]

When there's a dead horse in the middle of the room, and everyone
is avoiding it, the responsible person will try different ways of
instigating responsibility.

[jillery]

On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 02:02:26 -0400, dav...@agent.com wrote:

[...]

>>>>>The first step is everyone needs to understand WHY
>>>>>we need to do it, and we're not there yet. After
>>>>>the WHY is understood, then we'll all decide HOW.
>>>>>
>>>>Then why are you campaigning for a particular (and ineffective) HOW?
>>>
>>>It's just an attention getting device....a grabber.
>>
>>No surprise there. Did you really think you were fooling anybody?
>
>When there's a dead horse in the middle of the room, and everyone
>is avoiding it, the responsible person will try different ways of
>instigating responsibility.

The responsible person will work to remove the dead horse. You
conflate responsibility with blame.

[Nick Keighley]

what problems have you pointed out?

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Sun, 15 Jul 2012 12:16:07 -0400, Kalkidas wrote
(in article <jtuqc8$e56$1...@dont-email.me>):

Where is the insult? You can, of course, actually point it out and, oh
PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE this time?

--
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

[Nick Keighley]

On Jul 15, 9:20�pm, Glenn <GlennShel...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Jul 15, 11:40 am, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
> > On Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:24:18 -0700, the following appeared
> > in talk.origins, posted by "Glenn"
> > <glennshel...@invalid.invalid>:
> > >"Bob Casanova" <nos...@buzz.off> wrote in message
> > >news:3pj308pflj5v1jcc5...@4ax.com...
> > >> On Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:58:08 -0700, the following appeared
> > >> in talk.origins, posted by Kalkidas <e...@joes.pub>:
> > >> >On 7/13/2012 9:06 AM, Kermit wrote:
> > >> >> On Jul 12, 11:56 am, Kalkidas <e...@joes.pub> wrote:
> > >> >>> On 7/12/2012 12:00 AM, dav...@agent.com wrote:

> > >> >> [...] Dave may not expect to convert many people
> > >> >> here, [...]

>
> > >> >He posts a lot of off-topic stuff without even indicating it by "OT:".
>
> > >> >t.o. seems to be allowing more and more of that crap.

TO's always accepted a pretty broad defintion of on-topic

> > >> The robomoderator has never specifically forbidden it (which
> > >> would create an interesting task for what is essentially a
> > >> counter of crossposts, with a few groups filters but with
> > >> zero ability to analyze content. As has been noted to you in
> > >> the past).

I think its unreasonable to expect a script to b able to do this sort
of stuff

> > >That isn't exactly true either. T.O. moderation is not exlusively automated.

well if we decided what was and wasn't on-topic then we could ask
people
nicely not to post off-topic stuff. Personnally I like TOs broad
spread of topic.
If I'm not intersted in something then I can skip it.

> > >DIG
> > >has on occasion banned posters for off topic content, although he has not
> > >precisely specified what content is forbidden.

whatever he has a bee in his bonnet about. He did start banning
Climate Change
stuff at one time. Or at least getting cross about it.

> > > And "fnord" alone refutes your
> > >claim of zero ability to analyze content.

it's not exactly sophisticated analysis. A line or two of Perl?

> > > erhaps easier and less buggy to
> > >develop than fnord would be to reject any post containing "OT" in the subject
> > >line.

and those who wanted to post OT stuff would omitt the marker.

> > >I do agree that designing a complex program to filter by content would be
> > >an interesting task. I doubt the moderator would agree as a practical matter.

may you program "interesting" systems

> > Correct in essence, but specifying a single word(?) by which
> > to accept or reject a post hardly qualifies a content
> > analysis and moderation, at least in the sense those terms
> > are used in the newsgroups. IMHO *actual* content analysis
> > would require a really sophisticated AI.
>
> Perhaps, although it is not clear to me that intelligence is ever
> artificial.

what term would you prefer? To understand human written posts in any
meaningful
way we currently need human-level intelligence. So we either hire
someone to do the job
or we "construct" an intelligence. We usually call "constructed
intelligences" AIs. (The
brits tried "machine intelligence" buit it never caught on).

> And the "natural intelligence" that can be indirectly
> observed here seems to have problems with content analysis on a
> regular basis, so perhaps we could not expect much more from an "AI".
> They are not all created equal. The problems of such moderation
> techniques seem somewhat self-evident, and would range from simple one
> word identification to a god-like ability to interpret and qualify
> every form of communication of information within not only whole
> threads but everything that has ever been written in the history of
> mankind, and beyond. I have no idea of what you mean by "really
> sophisticated".

I don't think noddy scripts would buy you much and to be really
useful
would require a lot of sophistication.

>The ability is there to auto-moderate content, but you
> might not like the outcome when another would. For instance, rejecting
> any post that included the word Nazi or Hitler with atheist or
> Christian in any part of the post would eliminate most of those
> threads that attempt to associate Hitler with one group. That is off-
> topic for the group as I see it. And there have been many such
> threads. In perhaps all cases, as you might imagine, such moderation
> comes down to a matter of taste, what rules you are willing to be
> restrained by and what consequences you are prepared to accept.

<snip>

[dav...@agent.com]

jillery <69jp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>dav...@agent.com wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>>>>>The first step is everyone needs to understand WHY
>>>>>>we need to do it, and we're not there yet. After
>>>>>>the WHY is understood, then we'll all decide HOW.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Then why are you campaigning for a particular (and ineffective) HOW?
>>>>
>>>>It's just an attention getting device....a grabber.
>>>
>>>No surprise there. Did you really think you were fooling anybody?
>>
>>When there's a dead horse in the middle of the room, and everyone
>>is avoiding it, the responsible person will try different ways of
>>instigating responsibility.
>
>The responsible person will work to remove the dead horse. You
>conflate responsibility with blame.

In this case, avoidance signifies blame.

[Slow Vehicle]

On Aug 22, 8:19�am, dav...@agent.com wrote:

<snip>

> In this case, avoidance signifies blame.

"It's the last midnight..."

[Kermit]

Ah! A man of action.
How soon do you expect to see your plan to let some children die from
lack of vaccinations implemented?

In the meanwhile, if you can free up some time from your undoubtedly
busy schedule, perhaps you could provide some evidence to support
any of your claims?

Kermit

[Kermit]

On 21 Aug, 22:57, dav...@agent.com wrote:

But that's what you're deciding. You are choosing to remove those who
are less resistant to certain communicable diseases. Why not folks who
are less bright than average, or weak for their gender and age, or
have the wrong skin color? I am very nearsighted; I would not likely
have lived a full life 20,000 years ago. Shall we choose folks who are
best suited for the hunter-gatherer lifestyle, or for the new urban
lifestyle?

In any event, I do not object to triage in principle. In some
circumstances it reduces the number of deaths and overall suffering.
But you have failed to even attempt to explain why withholding
vaccines would:
1. Improve general health.
2. Reduce the maximum population, or even reduce it temporarily faster
than it is growing now.
3. Reduce, let alone stop, the damage we are doing to the planet (and
therefore future generations.)

Kermit

[Kermit]

[...]

So, you think we lost humility when we started vaccinations?

And how do you measure this?
(Yes, I am once again asking for supporting evidence. 'Cause I don't
see it.)

[dav...@agent.com]

The first step is everyone needs to understand why.
We're not there yet.

[dav...@agent.com]

Kermit <unrestra...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>dav...@agent.com wrote:
>> Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >alextangent <b...@rivadpm.com> wrote:
>> >> dav...@agent.com wrote:
>>
>> >> > No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
>> >> > most of the problems looming before us. Stopping the suppression
>> >> > of measles, flu, malaria & TB is one way to shorten life spans.
>> >> > It would also help with the problem of the proliferation of defective
>> >> > forms. It would help to stop enabling drug addicts & alcoholics,
>> >> > and it would also facilitate humility.
>>
>> >> Can you differentiate what you have just written from a similar
>> >> philosophy executed in the 1930s and 40s in Germany?
>>
>> >For one thing, they weren't proposing it as a means of population
>> >control. �Although "defective forms" certainly captures the spirit of
>> >those times.
>>
>> I define defective forms as those who don't stand up to the
>> onslaught of the diseases. �When people decide which are
>> defective, then you get your Hilterism (misspelled on purpose).
>
>But that's what you're deciding. You are choosing to remove those who
>are less resistant to certain communicable diseases.

I have no idea who they are. Could be anybody.

[dav...@agent.com]

>( I am once again asking for supporting evidence. 'Cause I don't
>see it.)

Here's what you get with overpopulation, when economies of
scale kick in, spawning mechanized husbandry:
"What a Natural Chicken should look like"
[Chef Raymond Blanc compares the anatomy of a well-raised,
"happy" chicken to that of a factory farmed abnormality.]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj_pyeyzHx8

[dav...@agent.com]

The greater the human element in the choosing, the greater
the potential for abuse.

[dav...@agent.com]

>( I am asking for supporting evidence. 'Cause I don't
>see it.)

http://tinyurl.com/czuw3ph

Pack of women arrested in 6 Train stabbing � after 63-year-old man
asked them to be quiet: police

Read more:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/cops_gals_stabbed_shusher_gxWqiitkYt1PSmpZYhYmhO#ixzz24U0oM4Ic

[Kermit]

How would withholding vaccinations reduce this?

Please note that countries without vaccines manage to have lots of
babies just fine. In fact, they have a higher birth rate than Europe,
Japan, or the US. Their populations seem to be limited to carrying
capacity, not the percentage of kids they lose to communicable
diseases.

Kermit

[Kermit]

> Read more:http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/cops_gals_stabbed_shushe...

Ah. I see your point. If one of these young women had died of smallpox
ten years ago, there would have been only *six* women to stab that old
man,

Kermit

[Kermit]

Well... I agree with *this.

But how are random deaths supposed to help?
Countries without vaccination programs have *more babies.

How does it help? Were the Native American peoples stronger after the
plagues of European diseases ravaged them?

<snip me>

Kermit

[Kermit]

On 22 Aug, 20:16, dav...@agent.com wrote:
> Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >dav...@agent.com wrote:
> >> Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >alextangent <b...@rivadpm.com> wrote:
> >> >> dav...@agent.com wrote:
>
> >> >> > No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
> >> >> > most of the problems looming before us. Stopping the suppression
> >> >> > of measles, flu, malaria & TB is one way to shorten life spans.
> >> >> > It would also help with the problem of the proliferation of defective
> >> >> > forms. It would help to stop enabling drug addicts & alcoholics,
> >> >> > and it would also facilitate humility.
>
> >> >> Can you differentiate what you have just written from a similar
> >> >> philosophy executed in the 1930s and 40s in Germany?
>
> >> >For one thing, they weren't proposing it as a means of population
> >> >control. �Although "defective forms" certainly captures the spirit of
> >> >those times.
>
> >> I define defective forms as those who don't stand up to the
> >> onslaught of the diseases. �When people decide which are
> >> defective, then you get your Hilterism (misspelled on purpose).
>
> >But that's what you're deciding. You are choosing to remove those who
> >are less resistant to certain communicable diseases.
>
> I have no idea who they are. �Could be anybody.

In a sense, yes. It will be those with less resistance to that
particular disease when they are exposed to it.

It will kill the weak - including infants and the elderly, not just
folks with intrinsic health issues. Smallpox and other diseases wiped
out 90% of North American natives after early exposure. They were
not lacking vigor - they simply were not descended from people who had
been exposed to those diseases.

It will not kill people who are statistically linked to any other
traits, desirable or otherwise. How does this help?

It will waste resources spent on raising children, only to have them
die. It will add to chaos , despair, sadness, and unpredictable loss
of resources at a time when we are undergoing rapidly worsening
stress.

Please explain why this will help. Or do you just like the idea of
randomly killing strangers?

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Why not folks who
> >are less bright than average, or weak for their gender and age, or
> >have the wrong skin color? I am very nearsighted; I would not likely
> >have lived a full life 20,000 years ago. Shall we choose folks who are
> >best suited for the hunter-gatherer lifestyle, or for the new urban
> >lifestyle?
>
> >In any event, I do not object to triage in principle. In some
> >circumstances it reduces the number of deaths and overall suffering.
> >But you have failed to even attempt to explain why withholding
> >vaccines would:
> >1. Improve general health.
> >2. Reduce the maximum population, or even reduce it temporarily faster
> >than it is growing now.
> >3. Reduce, let alone stop, the damage we are doing to the planet (and
> >therefore future generations.)
>
> >Kermit

You have made these claims immediately above numerous times, but do
not support them. They are contrary to evidence. Please justify them.

Kermit

[Kermit]

If you *explained why, it might speed up the process.

Please offer evidence for, or describe a mechanism explaining why,
allowing people to die of preventable disease:
1. Improves general health.
2. Increases humility.
3. Limits maximum population size.
4. Reduces our dependence on unsustainable practices.

Also, why is my predicting that disastrous processes will soon led to
disaster "passing the buck"?

> >busy schedule, perhaps you could provide some evidence to support
> >any of your claims?
>
> >Kermit

Kermit

[dav...@agent.com]

All countries have vaccination programs:
http://apps.who.int/immunization_monitoring/en/globalsummary/scheduleselect.cfm

Those with higher birth rates also have lower life expectancy,
and use fewer resources, so have a small footprint. It's more
than just pure numbers of people. You're still not looking
at the big picture.

[dav...@agent.com]

We're trying to unify people here, under the principle that
the Golden Rule is the path to peace, and it has to operate
across generations, too, because the big picture is more
than just us, right now....it includes future generations, too.

>Please offer evidence for, or describe a mechanism explaining why,
>allowing people to die of preventable disease:
>1. Improves general health.
>2. Increases humility.
>3. Limits maximum population size.
>4. Reduces our dependence on unsustainable practices.
>

>why is my predicting that disastrous processes will soon led to
>disaster "passing the buck"?

Your inaction regarding population control is passing the buck.
Shortening life spans and increasing the death rate to control
population is being responsible regarding the sustainability
of the world economy.

[dav...@agent.com]

It will increase the death rate without allowing the potential
for abuse that you would get with the Department of Death
making all the decisions.

>It will waste resources spent on raising children, only to have them
>die. It will add to chaos , despair, sadness, and unpredictable loss
>of resources at a time when we are undergoing rapidly worsening
>stress.

It will force governments to spend more time with domestic
affairs instead of dreaming up foreign adventures.

[dav...@agent.com]

[Paul J Gans]

Kermit <unrestra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 21 Aug, 22:57, dav...@agent.com wrote:
>> Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >alextangent <b...@rivadpm.com> wrote:
>> >> dav...@agent.com wrote:
>>
>> >> > No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
>> >> > most of the problems looming before us. Stopping the suppression
>> >> > of measles, flu, malaria & TB is one way to shorten life spans.
>> >> > It would also help with the problem of the proliferation of defective
>> >> > forms. It would help to stop enabling drug addicts & alcoholics,
>> >> > and it would also facilitate humility.
>>
>> >> Can you differentiate what you have just written from a similar
>> >> philosophy executed in the 1930s and 40s in Germany?
>>
>> >For one thing, they weren't proposing it as a means of population

>> >control. ?Although "defective forms" certainly captures the spirit of

>> >those times.
>>
>> I define defective forms as those who don't stand up to the

>> onslaught of the diseases. ?When people decide which are

>> defective, then you get your Hilterism (misspelled on purpose).

>But that's what you're deciding. You are choosing to remove those who
>are less resistant to certain communicable diseases. Why not folks who
>are less bright than average, or weak for their gender and age, or
>have the wrong skin color? I am very nearsighted; I would not likely
>have lived a full life 20,000 years ago. Shall we choose folks who are
>best suited for the hunter-gatherer lifestyle, or for the new urban
>lifestyle?

>In any event, I do not object to triage in principle. In some
>circumstances it reduces the number of deaths and overall suffering.
>But you have failed to even attempt to explain why withholding
>vaccines would:
>1. Improve general health.
>2. Reduce the maximum population, or even reduce it temporarily faster
>than it is growing now.
>3. Reduce, let alone stop, the damage we are doing to the planet (and
>therefore future generations.)

One middle ground is to legalize assisted suicide. Some folks
want to go when they are ready.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

[dav...@agent.com]

> I see your point. If one of these young women had died of smallpox

>10 years ago, there would've been only *6* women to stab that old man,

Did you see how heavy they are? Used to be only the chief of the
tribe was that big. Now anyone can join the club. Where's the
humility in that? Humility means being "right-sized". Nobody wants
to learn when to stop eating. Fortunately, my plan will help with
that. Having a bout with the flu for a week or two will take a
BIG-ASS bite out of anyone's appetite!

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 22:38:05 -0400, dav...@agent.com wrote
(in article <gq2j38tr7mrorhccs...@4ax.com>):

>>>>>> If you are thinking only of a ï¿œlower population, I remind you:

>>> Pack of women arrested in 6 Train stabbing ￜ after 63-year-old man

>>> asked them to be quiet: police
>>>
>>> Read more:http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/cops_gals_stabbed_sh
>>> ushe...
>>
>> I see your point. If one of these young women had died of smallpox
>> 10 years ago, there would've been only *6* women to stab that old man,
>
> Did you see how heavy they are? Used to be only the chief of the
> tribe was that big. Now anyone can join the club. Where's the
> humility in that? Humility means being "right-sized". Nobody wants
> to learn when to stop eating. Fortunately, my plan will help with
> that. Having a bout with the flu for a week or two will take a
> BIG-ASS bite out of anyone's appetite!
>

Right. You have finally succeeded in being repellant enough to enter my
killfile. Concgrats. You are just the third poster on t.o to make it into the
kf in the last two years. Enjoy.

[(David P.)]

"J.J. O'Shea" <try.not...@but.see.sig> wrote:
> dav...@agent.com wrote
> > Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> dav...@agent.com wrote:
>
> >>>>> It facilitates humility because it puts one temporarily out of
> >>>>> commission, and allows one to confront one's mortality.
> >>>>

> >>>> So, you think we lost humility when we started vaccinations?
> >>>> And how do you measure this?

> >>>> I'm asking for supporting evidence. 'Cause I don't see it.
>
> >>>http://tinyurl.com/czuw3ph
>
> >>> Pack of women arrested in 6 Train stabbing ďż˝ after 63-year-old man

> >>> asked them to be quiet: police
>
> >>> Read more:http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/cops_gals_stabbed_sh
> >>> ushe...
>
> >> I see your point. If one of these young women had died of smallpox
> >> 10 years ago, there would've been only *6* women to stab that old man,
>
> > Did you see how heavy they are?  Used to be only the chief of the
> > tribe was that big.  Now anyone can join the club.  Where's the
> > humility in that?  Humility means being "right-sized".  Nobody wants
> > to learn when to stop eating.   Fortunately, my plan will help with
> > that.  Having a bout with the flu for a week or two will take a
> > BIG-ASS bite out of anyone's appetite!
>

> Right. You've finally succeeded in being repellant enough to enter my
> killfile. Congrats. You're just the 3rd poster on t.o to make it into the

> kf in the last two years. Enjoy.

http://www.healingwell.com/library/ibs/article.asp?author=vanvorous&id=1

A New Way to Eat

The fundamental idea of eating for IBS is to avoid foods that over-
stimulate or irritate the colon (via the gastrocolic reflex that
occurs when food enters the stomach), and eat foods that soothe and
regulate it. This will relieve and prevent both diarrhea and consti-
pation, as well pain, gas, and bloating. This is best accomplished
by strictly limiting the amount of dietary fat (the single most
powerful digestive tract stimulant), eating soluble fiber consis-
tently with every snack and meal, eliminating coffee, carbonated
beverages, and alcohol, being very careful with insoluble fiber,
and avoiding overeating by having frequent small meals instead of
large ones. It is also important to avoid cigarettes, as tobacco
wreaks havoc on the digestive tract.

Trigger Foods - Warning! Eat at Your Own Risk

The most difficult foods for the body to digest are fats and animal
products. As a result, they are the most powerful IBS triggers, and
you must strictly limit or, preferably, eliminate altogether these
foods from your diet. Will this require an enormous change in the
way you eat? Probably. But it is a change for the better, and we
will walk together through the steps needed to make this change as
easily and deliciously as possible.

I sympathize tremendously with people when they are told of the
dietary changes they need to make to control their IBS. At first
glance these changes can seem overwhelming and just too difficult,
as by nature most of us are resistant to any great transformations
of our lives. It is almost always easier to not alter a habit,
simply because inertia takes less effort than action.

However, I really cannot stress enough that the changes in diet
required for IBS do NOT equal deprivation. You will not be expected
to simply give up all the foods you love, and offered a tasteless
starvation diet in return. These changes are in fact a terrific
opportunity for a better life, as you can easily learn how to eat
safely for IBS without giving up an ounce of flavor, fun, favorite
restaurants, or delicious home cooking. It is simply a matter of
substitution, of replacing trigger foods with safe choices.
Remember that the only thing you're really giving up here is the
constant worry and dread of attacks, as well as the pain and agony
they cause.

Please note that individual tolerances for IBS trigger foods may
vary. The following list is comprehensive and should include all
potential dietary sources of trouble. You may find through experi-
mentation that you have a higher degree of tolerance for some of
these foods than others.

Red Meat (Beef, Pork, Lamb, etc.) Poultry Dark Meat and Skin.
Dairy Products. Egg Yolks. Fried Foods. Coconut Milk. Oils,
Shortening, Butter, Fats. Solid Chocolate. Coffee, Regular and
Decaffeinated. Alcohol. Carbonated Beverages. Artificial Sweeteners.
Artificial Fats.

What's All This About Fiber?

One of the most troublesome pieces of advice routinely given to
people with IBS is the dictate, 'Eat more fiber!' It prompts the
question - what kind of fiber? Most people are never even told
that there are actually two types of fiber. The term 'fiber' in
general refers to a wide variety of substances found in plants.
Some of these substances can be dissolved in water ('soluble fiber'),
and others do not dissolve ('insoluble fiber'). Insoluble fiber is
'rough'; it passes intact through the intestinal tract, increasing
the frequency, water content, and looseness of bowel movements.
Insoluble fiber, and particularly wheat bran, decreases the transit
time of fecal matter in the G.I. tract. Although this has the
crucial benefit of reducing the colon's exposure to carcinogens,
thus inhibiting colon cancer development, it can also trigger
painful attacks in IBS sufferers, with severe cramping that can
result in diarrhea or constipation.

Soluble fiber, in contrast, is 'smooth', and soothing to the
digestive tract. It regulates the digestive tract, stabilizes the
intestinal contractions resulting from the gastrocolic reflex
triggered by eating, and normalizes bowel function from either
extreme. That's right - soluble fiber prevents and relieves both
diarrhea and constipation. Nothing else in the world will do this
for you. How is this possible? The 'soluble' in soluble fiber means
that it dissolves in water (though it is not digested). This allows
it to absorb excess liquid in the colon, preventing diarrhea by
forming a thick gel and adding a great deal of bulk as it passes
intact through the gut. This gel (as opposed to a watery liquid)
also keeps the GI muscles stretched gently around a full colon,
giving those muscles something to easily 'grip' during peristaltic
contractions, thus preventing the rapid transit time and explosive
bowel movements of diarrhea as well. By the same token, the full
gel-filled colon (as opposed to a colon tightly clenched around
dry, hard, impacted stools) provides the same 'grip' during the
muscle waves of constipation sufferers, allowing for an easier and
faster transit time, and the passage of the thick wet gel also
effectively relieves constipation by softening and pushing through
impacted fecal matter. If you can mentally picture your colon as a
tube that is squeezing through matter via regular waves of contrac-
tions, it's easy to see how a colon filled with soluble fiber gel
is beneficial for both sides of the IBS coin.

As a glorious bonus here, normalizing the contractions of the colon
(from too fast or too slow speeds) prevents the violent and irregular
spasms that result in the lower abdominal cramping pain that cripples
so many IBS patients. This single action alone is the reason I don't
eat anything on an empty stomach but soluble fiber. Ever. The only
foods I want to trigger my gastrocolic reflex are soluble fiber, as
that's the only way I can keep those contractions (and thus my life)
normal. Soluble fiber also lowers LDL ('bad') blood cholesterol
levels and the resultant risk of heart disease, helps prevent colon
cancer, and improves glycemic control in diabetics by slowing the
digestion of carbohydrates and the subsequent release of glucose
into the blood. In addition, soluble fiber may help prevent blood
vessel constriction and the formation of free radicals (both risk
factors for heart attacks) by slowing the absorption of fat and
carbohydrates into the bloodstream.

Metamucil, made from psyllium husks, and Citrucel, made of methyl-
cellulose, are both soluble fiber, and can be extremely helpful
when taken daily (make sure they are NOT the sugar-free varieties,
which have artificial sweeteners in them, and can trigger attacks).
Please be aware that although both of these products are marketed
as laxatives, they actually help treat and prevent diarrhea as well
as constipation. Soluble fiber alone has this remarkable ability to
normalize colonic activity from either extreme.

Foods that are naturally high in soluble fiber include oatmeal,
pasta, rice, potatoes, French or sourdough bread, soy, barley, and
oat bran. These starchy foods are also high in complex carbohydrates,
which are an important source of readily accessible fuel for energy.
Nuts, beans, and lentils are also good sources of soluble fiber but
should be treated with care, as nuts are high in fat & both lentils
and beans contain some insoluble fiber.

Soluble fiber should ALWAYS be the first thing you eat on an empty
stomach, and it should form the basis of EVERY snack and meal.
Your goal is to keep your colon consistently stabilized by providing
it with a regular supply of soluble fiber.

Insoluble Fiber - How Can Healthy Foods Hurt You?

Insoluble fiber, although crucial for good health, can be a powerful
IBS trigger. It needs to be incorporated into your diet in the
largest quantities possible, but with great care. Insoluble fiber
should NEVER be eaten alone or on an empty stomach.

Remember that it is much better to have a wide variety of insoluble
fiber foods in small amounts than to not eat any at all. You are
also likely to find that your tolerance for insoluble fiber will
increase if you are consistently eating it, even in tiny portions.
However, it's important to note that individual tolerances vary.
The following list is comprehensive and should include all potential
insoluble fiber sources of trouble for a hyperactive colon; you may
have a degree of tolerance for some of these foods and absolutely
none for others. IBS is a highly personalized problem, so you will
need to learn your own food tolerances and work around them.

Raw fruits, raw vegetables, raw greens, raw sprouts, and seeds
(including those from fresh fruits or vegetables), are all very
high in insoluble fiber. Be particularly careful with fruits and
vegetables that have tough skins or hulls such as blueberries,
cherries, apples, grapes, peas, corn, bell peppers, celery, etc.
It helps tremendously to peel and cook these fruits and vegetables
until tender, as this makes their fiber content dramatically less
likely to trigger attacks. It is also a healthy habit to routinely
incorporate fruits and veggies as secondary ingredients in recipes
with soluble fiber foods as the main ingredients. If possible, buy
organic produce only, as the chemical pesticides and herbicides
used on fruits and vegetables can have adverse health effects.

Two categories of fruits and vegetables, those that are acidic and
sulfur-containing, require extra precautions. Citrus juice and
cooked tomatoes have very high acidity levels, which can cause GI
distress, so they must be eaten with care. Incorporate them into
meals (or drinks served with meals) with a high soluble fiber
content, and don't eat them on an empty stomach. They must not be
eliminated from your diet altogether, however, as they contain
crucial vitamins and anti-oxidants. Tomatoes are also very high in
lycopene, which prevents some forms of cancer.

Garlic, onions, leeks, broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and Brussels
sprouts, though among the most nutrient-packed of all vegetables,
can also pose problems. In addition to their high amounts of
insoluble fiber, all contain sulfur compounds, which produces gas
in the GI tract & can thus trigger attacks. As with other vegetables,
cook these until tender, combine them with soluble fiber, and don't
eat them when your stomach is completely empty - but do make sure
and eat them.

To incorporate raw fruits and veggies into your diet, peel and eat
them in small quantities (just two or three bites) finely chopped,
as additions to high soluble fiber foods such as French breads,
pastas, rice, etc. It should also help to eat them towards the end
of a meal. This is especially important when it comes to green
salads. Eating them as is customary in America, on an empty stomach
at the beginning of lunch or dinner, is likely to trigger an attack.
Eating them at the end of a high soluble fiber meal is typically
quite safe. For fruit salads follow the same guidelines. At break-
fast have a bowl of oatmeal or toasted French bread first, then the
fruit, and at lunch or dinner have the fruit for dessert.

Whole wheat and bran are extremely high in insoluble fiber, and
foods such as whole wheat breads and cereals need to be eaten with
great care. For a daily safe staple, French and sourdough breads
are safe, but whole wheat breads are not. Whole wheat breads are
more nutritious, because the outer coating of bran on the grain has
not been removed as is the case in white breads. However, this bran
is also very high in insoluble fiber, and can thus trigger attacks.
For this same reason bran cereals are not a safe choice, though
rice, corn, or oat varieties are. Does this mean you should never
eat whole wheat bread or bran cereal? It most emphatically does not.
As with fruits and vegetables, the more whole grains you can eat the
better. It cannot be stressed enough that overall good health is
dependent on insoluble fiber. However, whole wheat and bran need
to be eaten just as carefully as green salads. Do not eat them on
an empty stomach, in large quantities, or without soluble fiber
foods.

Whole nuts are not only high in insoluble fiber, they are also high
in fat. Although this fat is monounsaturated and lowers your risk
of heart disease, it is still an IBS trigger. Like other high
insoluble foods, nuts are crucial for good health, but must be
eaten carefully. Finely grinding nuts and incorporating them into
recipes with soluble fiber is a very safe way to eat them. Small
amounts of nut butters on toasted French or sourdough bread are
usually very tolerable as well.

Popcorn is full of hard kernels that are pure insoluble fiber.
There is no great nutritional value to popcorn so it can simply be
eliminated from your diet. I realize this may make movies a lot
less fun, but having to bolt from a theater for the bathroom halfway
through a film is a worse alternative. Sneak some pretzels or baked
potato chips into the theater instead, and console yourself with
the thought that you'll actually get to see the end of that movie.

Fresh fruit juices, especially apple, prune, and grape, are sky high
in fructose, which can trigger cramps and diarrhea. Fruit juices in
general should be avoided on an empty stomach. Cranberry juice is
usually a safe choice. Rhubarb, prunes, figs, licorice are all
natural laxatives. As with fresh fruits in general, you may be able
to safely incorporate these foods into recipes with soluble fiber.
Just beware that they pose additional risks.

Fringe Benefits!

Eating for IBS has benefits far beyond controlling your bowel
symptoms. The IBS diet follows the FDA Food Pyramids, which means
that while eating safely for IBS you'll also lower your risk of
heart disease, cancer, arthritis, diabetes, high blood pressure,
and obesity.

Š 2001 Heather Van Vorous

Heather Van Vorous has had IBS for more than twenty years, beginning
in childhood. She is now an author and food writer specializing in
healthy gourmet recipes for people with bowel disorders. As a result
of the publicity her two books, "Eating for IBS" and "The First Year:
IBS", have received, she has become the best-known IBS patient-expert
in the USA, with an audience of over 250,000 people a year. Visit the
author's web site at http://www.helpforibs.com.

[prawnster]

On Saturday, August 25, 2012 8:14:45 PM UTC-7, J.J. O'Shea wrote:
>>You have finally succeeded in being repellant enough to enter my killfile. Concgrats. You are just the third poster on t.o to make it into the kf in the last two years. Enjoy. <<

So what is the sound of J.J. O'Gay, proud owner of a two-terabyte killfile in RAID-3 configuration, posting to usernet?

Fap fap fap fap fap [crickets...]

[J.J. O'Shea]

I killfiled this individual. He knows I killfiled him, as he's replied to the
message where I noted this and why. He changed his nym to get past the
killfile. He's back in the killfile, but I suspect that he'll be changing his
nym again as soon as he reads this.

I thought that nym-shifting to evade killfiles was a banable offence?

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 06:43:15 -0400, "J.J. O'Shea"
<try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

>I killfiled this individual. He knows I killfiled him, as he's replied to the
>message where I noted this and why. He changed his nym to get past the
>killfile. He's back in the killfile, but I suspect that he'll be changing his
>nym again as soon as he reads this.
>

The problem is that you are telling people what is in your killfile.

>I thought that nym-shifting to evade killfiles was a banable offence?

I've no idea.

Steve

--
Neural Network Software. http://www.npsl1.com
EasyNN-plus. Neural Networks plus. http://www.easynn.com
SwingNN. Forecast with Neural Networks. http://www.swingnn.com
JustNN. Just Neural Networks. http://www.justnn.com

[Boikat]

On Aug 27, 6:00 am, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@npsl1.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 06:43:15 -0400, "J.J. O'Shea"
>

> <try.not...@but.see.sig> wrote:
> >I killfiled this individual. He knows I killfiled him, as he's replied to the
> >message where I noted this and why. He changed his nym to get past the
> >killfile. He's back in the killfile, but I suspect that he'll be changing his
> >nym again as soon as he reads this.
>
> The problem is that you are telling people what is in your killfile.

That is not the problem.

>
> >I thought that nym-shifting to evade killfiles was a banable offence?
>
> I've no idea.

It is.

Noikat

[J.J. O'Shea]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 07:19:00 -0400, Boikat wrote
(in article
<d63c13dc-de07-4883...@l14g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>):

> On Aug 27, 6:00 am, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@npsl1.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 06:43:15 -0400, "J.J. O'Shea"
>>
>> <try.not...@but.see.sig> wrote:
>>> I killfiled this individual. He knows I killfiled him, as he's replied to
>>> the
>>> message where I noted this and why. He changed his nym to get past the
>>> killfile. He's back in the killfile, but I suspect that he'll be changing
>>> his
>>> nym again as soon as he reads this.
>>
>> The problem is that you are telling people what is in your killfile.
>
> That is not the problem.

He knows this.

>
>>
>>> I thought that nym-shifting to evade killfiles was a banable offence?
>>
>> I've no idea.
>
> It is.

I suspect that he knew that, too.

>
> Noikat

[dav...@agent.com]

Slow Vehicle <oneslow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> dav...@agent.com wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> In this case, avoidance signifies blame.
>
>"It's the last midnight..."

"A clever saying proves nothing."

"If you're not part of the solution,
you're part of the problem."

[dav...@agent.com]

Paul J Gans <gan...@panix.com> wrote:

Shortening life spans would also allow more of estates to
remain in the family, instead of going elsewhere.

[dav...@agent.com]

Kermit <unrestra...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>dav...@agent.com wrote:
>> Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > dav...@agent.com wrote:
>> >> Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > dav...@agent.com wrote:
>> >> >>  Kermit <unrestrained_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> >> >> >dav...@agent.com wrote:
>> >> >> >>http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/10/iom-elderly-need-better-acce...

>> >> >> >> that were part of the committee. �This IOM report provides a foun-

>> >> >> >> dation for our nation to build a psychology and mental health work-
>> >> >> >> force to meet the needs of our rapidly growing and increasingly

>> >> >> >> diverse aging population,� said APA CEO Norman B. Anderson. �The

>> >> >> >> report reflects successful advocacy by the mental and behavioral
>> >> >> >> health community and includes key policy recommendations, which
>> >> >> >> the APA looks forward to promoting in partnership with federal,

>> >> >> >> professional, & community leaders.�  In September, the APA plans

>> >> >> >> to brief members of Congress on the report's key findings and
>> >> >> >> recommendations.
>>
>> >> >> >Are you arguing for single payer, universal health care? Because that
>> >> >> >would the conclusion I derive from this article (and others).
>>

>> >> >> No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
>> >> >> most of the problems looming before us.
>>

>> >> >How would it stop anthropogenic global warming?
>> >> >Peak oil?
>> >> >Damage from ozone, especially to trees?
>> >> >Acidification of the oceans?
>>

Malaria in Uganda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biNaOrw0lWw

[dav...@agent.com]

"J.J. O'Shea" <try.n...@but.see.sig> wrote:

>I killfiled this individual. He knows I killfiled him, as he's replied to the
>message where I noted this and why. He changed his nym to get past the
>killfile. He's back in the killfile, but I suspect that he'll be changing his
>nym again as soon as he reads this.

You're great, but you're not THAT great!

[dav...@agent.com]

Ernest Major <{$to$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>dav...@agent.com writes

>>>> >> >> that were part of the committee. �This IOM report provides a foun-

>>>> >> >> dation for our nation to build a psychology and mental health work-
>>>> >> >> force to meet the needs of our rapidly growing and increasingly

>>>> >> >> diverse aging population,� said APA CEO Norman B. Anderson. �The

>>>> >> >> report reflects successful advocacy by the mental and behavioral
>>>> >> >> health community and includes key policy recommendations, which
>>>> >> >> the APA looks forward to promoting in partnership with federal,

>>>> >> >> professional, & community leaders.� �In September, the APA plans

>>>> >> >> to brief members of Congress on the report's key findings and
>>>> >> >> recommendations.
>>>>
>>>> >> >Are you arguing for single payer, universal health care? Because that
>>>> >> >would the conclusion I derive from this article (and others).
>>>>
>>>> >> No, I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
>>>> >> most of the problems looming before us.
>>>>
>>>> >How would it stop anthropogenic global warming?
>>>> >Peak oil?
>>>> >Damage from ozone, especially to trees?
>>>> >Acidification of the oceans?
>>>>
>>>> What will the world be like with 8 or 9 billion?
>>>>
>>>Worse, not only because of more people, but because the unsustainable
>>>practices we inflict on the planet and our children will have had the
>>>time to do more damage.
>>>
>>>You have yet to explain how not vaccinating people will:
>>>1. Be politically possible,
>>>2. Improves the general health of the population,
>>>3. Teaches humility,
>>>4. Actually reduces the maximum population.
>>
>>The first step is everyone needs to understand WHY
>>we need to do it, and we're not there yet. After
>>the WHY is understood, then we'll all decide HOW.
>>

>Then why are you campaigning for a particular (and ineffective) HOW?

On 08 Aug 2012, dav...@agent.com wrote:

[...]
...I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve

[Boikat]

On Feb 18, 5:04�pm, dav...@agent.com wrote:
> Ernest Major <{$t...@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >dav...@agent.com writes

Yes. Is so much easier to sit on your ass and watch people die of
curable diseases, rather than programs of voluntary birth control
(which would be more acceptable thrugh better education, rather than
forced castration, which I'm sure you would favor), and improvements
of food production and living standards, through applied technology.
After all, the latter involves that dirty word, "work", and we can't
have that, now can we?

Boikat

[wiki trix]

On Feb 18, 6:04�pm, dav...@agent.com wrote:
> Ernest Major <{$t...@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >dav...@agent.com writes

That would be a hard sell.

[dav...@agent.com]

Why don't you go and replace one of those polio workers
who were killed in Nigeria or Pakistan?

[Boikat]

> who were killed in Nigeria or Pakistan?-

I already have a job. Why don't you? Or would that be too much like
"work"?

Boikat

[dav...@agent.com]

You're the one who subscribes to "see a disease/cure a disease".
While you're there, you can also give 'em reasons why they
should consider birth control.

[Kermit]

Maybe they would, if they had good health care. Women who have birth
control in poor countries have fewer children.

You have never addressed the observation that high birth rates and
crummy vaccination programs go together.

Middle class Westerners, like Americans, have a lower than replacement
birth rate. My daughter's generation, current young adults, look like
they will have fewer yet.

kermit

[Kermit]

On 18 Feb, 15:04, dav...@agent.com wrote:
> Ernest Major <{$t...@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >dav...@agent.com writes

Yes, but it doesn't reduce the population to any significant degree.
You have provided no evidence that it contributes to general health of
the population.

> It would also help with the problem of the proliferation of defective
> forms.

How so? I see the continuation of civilization and continued research
into genetics as the best way to minimize "defective forms", to the
degree that this has a medical meaning.

> �It would help to stop enabling drug addicts & alcoholics,

How would letting some children die of preventable disease reduce drug
addiction in the population?

> and it would also facilitate humility.

How does getting sick teach humility? I don't think that when the
First Nations people were getting wiped out by diseases that the
European invaders generally recovered from, the invaders became more
humble.

If *you were humble, you might consider the possibility that you are
holding an irrational position. Unless you have cites to some evidence
that letting a preventable disease kill children "facilitates"
humility.

kermit

[Kermit]

On 18 Feb, 15:04, dav...@agent.com wrote:

<snip>

> [...]
> ...I'm saying that shortening life spans a little would solve
> most of the problems looming before us.

<snip>

And explain how a slightly shorter life span (on the average, not
universally) solve:
Oceanic dead zones.
Ocean acidification and collapse of life.
Rising sea levels.
More extreme weather, including multiple year droughts, record rains,
record floods, and more extreme storms.
The great extinction that is now underway.
The loss of top soil.
The death of forests.
The expansion of pests and diseases (e.g. African bees, fire ants,
Burmese pythons, giant hog weed in the USA.
Prolonged periods of intolerable heat (e.g. weeks or months of 40+�C)
in the American desert.
The possible (probable?) collapse of the physical, financial, and
technological infrastructures needed to maintain civilization.
The positive feedback loops already underway increasing AGW - e.g.
thawing methane clathrates, thawing and even burning of the Arctic
permafrost, loss of Arctic albedo, etc.

kermit

[dav...@agent.com]

Kermit <free...@charter.net> wrote:

>> and it would also facilitate humility.
>
>How does getting sick teach humility? I don't think that when the
>First Nations people were getting wiped out by diseases that the
>European invaders generally recovered from, the invaders became more
>humble.
>
>If *you were humble, you might consider the possibility that you are
>holding an irrational position. Unless you have cites to some evidence
>that letting a preventable disease kill children "facilitates"
>humility.

�The social value of archaeology,� she says, �is putting people in
their place�giving them a sense that we are one little part of a
very long continuum. It includes not just other humans. Things have
happened before us and will happen after us. Basically, the social
function of archaeology is to teach humility�and that we should
pay attention.�

[dav...@agent.com]

>Then why are you campaigning for a particular (& ineffective) HOW?

There are still whole nations that don't understand the
importance of birth control. Don't you think it would
work better if they did?

[Boikat]

On Feb 23, 1:28�pm, dav...@agent.com wrote:
> Ernest Major <{$t...@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >dav...@agent.com writes

So, you rather lrt children die from curable diseases, rather than
education. Well, of course you do. Educating people is too much likw
"work". Can't have that! No, better a field of dead children, piled
in heaps for *your* viewing pleasure.

Boikat

[Kermit]

On 23 Feb, 11:16, dav...@agent.com wrote:

[...]

Excuse me, but
"vaccination" != "archaeology"

How does *getting sick* teach humility?

kermit

[Kermit]

On 23 Feb, 11:28, dav...@agent.com wrote:
> Ernest Major <{$t...@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >dav...@agent.com writes

Yes. Yes, I do.

What does that have to do with letting folks die of preventable
diseases?

kermit

[dav...@agent.com]

It is in reference to this:

[Boikat]

On Feb 24, 12:02�am, dav...@agent.com wrote:

And only seen as a "solution" by someone who is psychotic.

Boikat

[dav...@agent.com]

How much time have you spent thinking about it?

[dav...@agent.com]

And what are you doing about that--just expressing
your support for it only when prompted?

[Kermit]

On 23 Feb, 22:02, dav...@agent.com wrote:

But you keep making counterintuitive claims which are also apparently
at odds with the facts.

Perhaps "why" questions should be predicated on a grasp on reality.

I'm still waiting for evidence that vaccination programs increase
population growth. Or evidence supporting the claim that obesity is
caused by or encouraged by vaccinations. Or evidence that vaccinations
reduce "population fitness", or increase mental illness or diabetes.

You look more like someone eager to see unnecessary deaths than like
someone who has come to an uncomfortable conclusion based on evidence.
Perhaps if you could provide cites or links to supporting evidence I
could change my doubtlessly inaccurate impression.

kermit

[Kermit]

I have thought a fair amount about vaccinations and archaeology over
the decades, but I have never before seen anyone try to use the terms
interchangeably.

You quote one scientist musing about her science, claiming that among
other things it teaches humility by putting the individual in
perspective. Fine; astronomers often have that sensation, as well as
evolutionary biologist and very nearly all sciences can have that
effect.

WTF does that have to do with letting children die from preventable
diseases?

Random quotes and stream of consciousness postings do not make
persuasive arguments.

Also, sciences do not have a social "function", although they could be
said to have social consequences. Science has one purpose, and that is
to learn how the universe works.

kermit

[Kermit]

On 26 Feb, 01:39, dav...@agent.com wrote:
> �Kermit <freeh...@charter.net> wrote:
> > dav...@agent.com wrote:

<snip>

>
> >> There are still whole nations that don't understand the
> >> importance of birth control. Don't you think it would
> >> work better if they did?
>
> >Yes. Yes, I do.
>
> And what are you doing about that--just expressing
> your support for it only when prompted?

You're right, I should be educating the poor countries of the world
about the virtues of birth control. Also redressing the poor state of
science education in US public schools. Also, stop the slaughter of
cetaceans, our intelligent ocean brethren. I must do something about
the advancing police state process developing in the US, and break the
support of the Tea Party astroturf constituency. And I really should
devote the rest of my life to getting rid of the developing theocracy
and tyranny in Russia - that's rather worrisome and could someday be a
global show-stopper. Of course the big one is global warming, and
oceanic collapse from acidification. Of course, those global processes
and their immense inertia can't be effectively dealt with until I
neutralize the threats of propaganda paid for by the fossil fuel
elites' think tanks and pet corrupt politicians.

Or I could just post on usenet groups and tell moms to let their kids
die, for it would make the world a better place.

What the hell does letting kids die of preventable diseases have to do
with birth control?
When mothers have access to decent medical care - birth control *and*
vaccinations - they have fewer kids - and watch fewer of them die.
There is less suffering and slower growth.

But that's not what you want, is it?

> >What does that have to do with letting folks die of preventable
> >diseases?

> >kermit

kermit

[dav...@agent.com]

the connection between sickness and humility?

[dav...@agent.com]

All kids are not created equal! Nature's way affords us
better quality control. Suppression of disease just allows
substandard, defective forms to persist, so you get more
autism, bipolar, ADHD, etc. Scientocracy has a snowball's
chance in hell of working. Just like that other flop, Technocracy.

[Kermit]

Didn't say they were.

> �Nature's way affords us

> better quality control. �Suppression of disease just allows
> substandard, defective forms to persist,

Perhaps you could shed some light on the defective forms of Native
Americans who died of measles and smallpox and other imported
communicable European diseases?

> so you get more autism, bipolar, ADHD, etc.

From not vaccinating? Please explain how either getting sick with
measles, etc, protects people from these problems, or how getting
vaccinated causes them. Because I have never heard of this claimed
correlation before.

> �Scientocracy has a snowball's

> chance in hell of working.

Hey! I like the sound of that! Who's been trying it out?

Really. I am fscking serious. What do you mean by this, where has it
been tried, and what evidence do you have that your claim is true?

> �Just like that other flop, Technocracy.

You don't approve of Skynet?

Sigh. Same as above.

>
> >But that's not what you want, is it?
>
> >> >What does that have to do with letting folks die of preventable
> >> >diseases?
>
> >> >kermit
> >kermit

kermit

[Kermit]

<shrug>

How much time have you spent thinking about squid and paintbrushes,
and their emotional commitment?

Or mustard and floodplains, and their subtle aromas?

If you have thought of sickness and humility together, as dual
elements of a single topic, then you should be able to describe the
nature of their interrelatedness.

It's OK, I'll wait.

kermit

[dav...@agent.com]

><shrug>
>How much time have you spent thinking about squid and paintbrushes,
>and their emotional commitment?
>Or mustard and floodplains, and their subtle aromas?
>If you have thought of sickness and humility together, as dual
>elements of a single topic, then you should be able to describe the
>nature of their interrelatedness. It's OK, I'll wait.

The first step is to understand what humility is.
Unfortunately, you're not there yet.
If you can't get there by yourself, I can't help you.
I have no sympathy for people who play dumb.

[Kermit]

I'm *twice* as humble as you!
<holds up two fingers to make it clear>

Sigh.

You claimed that getting sick teaches humility.
You then quoted an archaeologist who said that she feels humbled by
doing archaeology.

You seem to think this establishes a connection between getting sick
and becoming more humble. It does not.
I pointed out that people get sick whether they are vaccinated or not
(although not as often). Do you have *any* evidence that getting an
unnecessary illness makes one humble?

In all due humility,
kermit