Here is my reply that you missed, Mark, from the other thread.
On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 11:25:56 AM UTC-4, Mark Isaak wrote:
> On 10/2/23 6:10 PM,
peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 12:30:51 PM UTC-4, Mark Isaak wrote:
> >> On 9/27/23 11:11 AM,
peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 10:35:45 PM UTC-4, Mark Isaak wrote:
> >>>> On 9/22/23 2:34 PM,
peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 4:15:44 PM UTC-4, Lawyer Daggett wrote:
> >
> >> [big skip for focus]
> >
> >>>>>>> “Irreducible Complexity” was originally proposed by Herman J. Muller in 1918.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is one of the most enduring falsehoods in the anti-ID literature.
> >>>>> Muller only talked about SOME components being essential. Irreducible complexity
> >>>>> says, by definition, that EACH AND EVERY component is essential.
> >>>
> >>> Now you come in, Mark, with a generality and no specific examples, except for
> >>> Behe's teaching aid of a mousetrap.
> >>>
> >>>> Well, in practice, Behe's IC, like Muller's, says that each and every
> >>>> one of the *essential* components is essential.
> >>>
> >>> Wrong. Muller's "interlocking complexity" is applicable to the human body,
> >>> in which the heart is essential but the individual kidney is not essential.
> >>> That's what makes kidney donation such an important part of modern medicine.
> >>> And the individual kidney is far from irreducibly complex: you could lose
> >>> 80% of the parts that make up your kidney, and as long as the rest is working efficiently,
> >>> you will be OK.
> >>> Behe's actual examples are different. Minnich broke down a bacterial flagellum
> >>> into its individual molecules, and found that each and every one of them
> >>> was essential to the basic function of swimming. Take away molecule X,
> >>> it doesn't swim; restore molecule X, it swims.
> >>>
> >>> The individual components of the clotting system and the immune
> >>> system are molecules.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> To take an extreme and
> >>>> silly example, your ability to alter the company's logo on a mousetrap
> >>>> does not mean the mousetrap is not IC.
> >>>
> >>> I'm glad you caught on to that much. It spares me from going into
> >>> detail on a satire I did a number of years ago about your use
> >>> (back then) of the word "part."
> >>>
> >>> Anyway, the mousetrap has always been for educational purposes,
> >>> to illustrate the *concept* of irreducible complexity. Smart-alecky
> >>> nitpicks miss that point.
.
.
.
> >>>> And even if Muller's argument
> >>>> does talk about SOME components (actually, to quote him (p. 464), "very
> >>>> numerous different elementary parts or factors"), his argument does not
> >>>> change an iota if ALL components are involved.
Far below, I wrote something which referred specifically to my
being able to find p. 464, thanks to your very complete identification
of where it appeared. If more t.o. regulars were this conscientious,
t.o. would not be a cesspool headed for hellhole status.
> >>> I take it you are referring to loss of components making a formerly
> >>> nonessential component essential [same page]. That still doesn't
> >>> mean that ALL nonessential components suffer the same fate.
> >>> So the gulf between Behe and Muller is still there.
> >
> >> Okay, I accept that Muller's interlocking complexity allows some
> >> non-essential parts. However, it does not *require* them. Thus Behe's
> >> (original) irreducible complexity is a subset of Muller's interlocking
> >> complexity.
> >
> > That's like saying that humans are a subset of Mammalia. Doesn't tell
> > us much about our fellow humans. [Although Jonathan Swift did try
> > in Gulliver's Fourth Voyage.]
> More like saying that insects are a subset of Hexapoda.
Why? Insects are a huge subset of Hexapoda, outnumbering all other
candidates put together on the species level.
OTOH we humans are a single species of Mammalia.
If you are thinking of comparisons of individuals, I do believe
we humans are outnumbered just by the members of Rodentia.
OTOH I believe insects outnumber all other hexapods on an individual
to individual basis. What other hexapod can outnumber the ants alone?
> >> Muller remains significant in that he showed how Behe's IC could evolve
> >> naturally, indeed that such systems might be expected to evolve.
> >
> > By armchair theorists who don't look at such things but speculate in airy rhetorical
> > ways about them, minimizing their difficulty by the same one-size-fits-all generalities
> > that anti-ID zealots use to minimize the difficulty of OOL.
> >
> > Find a system that could evolve more easily than the irreducibly complex
> > bacterial flagellum Minnich researched [see above], and work just as well or better, and which becomes
> > a bacterial flagellum by losing a bunch of parts.
> Minnich never tried to find such a system.
Errmm... it's the job of anti-ID folks like yourself to find such a system.
Try re-reading the paragraph to whose content you are replying.
> Neither have you.
Not my job. Moreover, I haven't the foggiest idea how that could be done.
> Muller at
> least pointed a way past the apparent roadblocks.
If you know about anyone who applied Muller's idea of "a way past"
to ANY of the IC systems that Behe treats in _DBB_, I'd love to know about it.
In fact, Muller's idea is just another "Exaptor of the gaps" argument until someone
provides such a "way past" for those systems.
> >> Of course, he preceded Behe by decades, so he was not directly addressing
> >> Behe's claims, and he did not (as far as I know) mention the other ways
> >> that Behe's IC could evolve gradually.
IC systems can and do evolve without losing their IC status.
The real issue is whether an IC system itself can evolve gradually
from non-IC systems. Exaptationdiddit is not an explanation.
>>> For example, possible ambiguity
> >> in what may be regarded as a "part", which Peter thinks he can ignore
> >> now that he has made up a lampoon about it.
> >
> > Not a lampoon. A challenge for you to fix your thinking about the definition of "part"
> > to where you realize that the relevant parts of Behe's serious examples are MOLECULES.
> How is that relevant?
Keep reading.
> > Do you know enough chemistry to know how different chemical bonds are from physical
> > attachments? Or chemical reactions are from physical ones?
> I'm sure you know that molecules can be created, destroyed, and, most
> importantly, altered, right?
Alteration is a very different thing from *removal* (IOW, destruction), which is what IC is all about.
By the way, is "created" a Freudian slip? I've been suspected of being
a closet creationist for less than that.
>In particular, you know that such changes
> of molecules are *essential* to the life of a cell?
Cells are not IC systems. No one has succeeded in either finding
or "creating" an irreducibly complex cell.
And if someone DID succeed, [s]he could write *finis* to the next thing you wrote:
> To consider molecules as the relevant "parts" is absurd.
Please stick to molecules that are parts of IC systems that Behe wrote about.
Now do you see why it is relevant for the parts to be molecules?
[See where I wrote "Keep reading" way up there.]
> >>>>>>> He called it "interlocking complexity," and showed how it was supporting evolutionary theory. That original paper was, "Genetic Variablity, Twin Hybrids and Constant Hybrids, in a Case of Balanced Lethal Factors", Hermann J. Muller, Genetics, Vol 3, No 5: 422-499, Sept 1918.
> >>>
> >>> Google was my friend, as usual. Bing betrayed me by sending me to a specific
> >>> webpage that was flagged as suspicious by my anti-virus software.
> >>> Bing has started using ChatGPT, so that might account for the difference.
What had happened was that I pasted
"Genetic Variablity, Twin Hybrids and Constant Hybrids, in a Case of Balanced Lethal Factors"
into Bing, then into Google, and Google came through with lots of hits. Not so Bing.
> >>> What say you to that, Mark?
> >
> >> Why do you ask?? Did you forget to "skip for focus"?
> >
> > What's the point of this snarky evasion? I am genuinely interested in the answer. If this
> > is the way search engines are to be in the AI-controlled future, it will be the nanny state
> > to end all nanny states.
> >
> > I thought you were a *professional* computer scientist. Which better talk.origins
> > regular to turn to than you?
> Okay. I suggest in the future you signal such changes in topic (e.g.,
> "Drastic subject change coming").
My apologies for any "mental whiplash" you might have suffered.
> I have never worked with or on AI; I have never (knowingly) used
> ChatGPT; and I have not used Bing in many years. Whereof I cannot
> speak, thereof I must be silent.
Your candor here is refreshing.