These last two weeks I've been terribly busy, and today is no exception,
but this hour before my office hours is the "eye of the storm,"
and I only expect the storm to hit again in earnest when I go home from the office around
4pm and start composing the test that I give one of my courses on Friday.
On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 10:51:47 PM UTC-4, Sight Reader wrote:
> On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 11:52:15 AM UTC-6, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > This is a reply to a post by Sight Reader on the thread, ""Fabulous Triassic Menagerie".
> >
> > <big snip for focus>
> > > Certainly a lot of these guys fall under the “fast-but-inefficient” category;
> > Would you like to give us some examples that you found particularly striking, and why?
> To be clear, the comment I made about “fast but inefficient” was in support of the following remark by Mr. Simpson:
> > For that matter, the same can be said for any rapid expansion into new or recently vacated ecospace. The first
> > arrivals in new territory got out of the blocks fast, but may not be particularly well-adapted to conditions.
> To me, a possible example of what Mr. Simpson was referring to would be the attempt by temnospondyls to secure the “top swamp predator spot” during the Triassic. I don’t know how important temnospondyls were back in the Permian, but they certainly seemed to jump all over the early Triassic when little else appeared to be left in the swamp.
What else was in the swamp before? There were a lot of lepospondyls, and I'll have to
review things later this week to see how they fared in the Triassic, or the Permian for that matter.
As for the Permian and Triassic amniotes, I didn't think of them as swamp critters.
Do you have any indication that the Permian ones played a big swamp role?
Their ancestors appeared well back in the Carboniferous, and I'll have to check
on them too this weekend.
>As the Triassic wore on, though, it seems as if various archosaurs - most notably phytosaurs - pushed them off the dominant role and started diminishing them, after which they were dealt a crippling blow by the T-Jr extinction.
Don't forget about the synapsids. There were some carnivorous ones all through
the Permian and the Triassic. The Triassic was dominated by the carnivorous
therocephalians and the cynodonts, among whom the iconic *Cynognathus* was
a predator. The cynodonts also included *Thrinaxodon*, a genus used as the moniker
of a former sci.bio.paleontology regular, who almost destroyed s.b.p. by spam
before reinventing herself as Oxyaena, after having cleaned up that part of her act.
The therapsid original was a small predator:
"Thrinaxodon was a small synapsid roughly the size of a fox[1] and possibly covered in hair. The dentition suggests that it was a carnivore, focusing its diet mostly on insects, small herbivores and invertebrates."
--
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrinaxodon
> Does this mean I am claiming that I know “for a fact” that archosaurs came in and competed for the exact same niche that temnospondyls had, that archosaurs and their hard eggs were provably “more efficient” than the amphibians, and that archosaurs were the direct cause for their decline? Of course not: its hard enough to figure out how anyone’s niche actually interacted with others, never mind determining the real reasons why any particular clade may have declined.
The synapsids were decimated by the end of Triassic extinction,
but were doing rather well before that:
"Eutheriodontia is a clade of therapsids which appear during the Middle Permian and which includes therocephalians and cynodonts, this latter group including mammals and related forms.
"With the dicynodonts, they form one of two lineages of therapsids that survived the End-Permian extinction and which diversified again during the Triassic, before the majority of them disappeared before or during the Triassic–Jurassic extinction, except for a lineage of cynodonts that would later give rise to mammals."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutheriodontia
>
> The same could be said for Lystrosaurus, those squat dicynodonts who “ruled the earth” (or at least the dry parts of it) for a few million years while everyone else was wiped out. Starting from complete dominance, we then see dicynodonts dwindle to increasingly smaller and more specialized roles; however, as with temnospondyls, it’s hard to establish the exact details of “who”, “why”, or “how”.
> > It would be very interesting to know when and why such big clades went extinct.
> > We could try chasing down all the critters in these clades for some clue as to whether any
> > were still hanging on at or near the end of the Triassic. But if that fails, the problem could
> > be the fault of what you wrote next:
> >
> > > From what I recall, our Triassic information is so sparse that it would be hard to tell exactly how long some of these weird experiments persisted.
> Well, in addition to the difficulties mentioned above in nailing down the true causes of decline, I find that there’s another problem with the Triassic in that it has a confounding number of transitional species. When they give us something as enigmatic as - say - the “aphanosaurs”, it becomes really hard to tell if they were one of these outcompeted “fast and inefficient” guys like Mr. Simpson proposed or if they were a transitional phase of something that shows up later in a more derived form.
Excellent point.
>Really hard to say much about such clades when the entire world has produced only a few fragments of them.
Agreed.
> > There is at least one example of mega-evolution where the extinctions were due
> > to competition between two huge clades: Pterosauria and Avialae. At the beginning
> > of the Cretaceous, there were many kinds of small pterosaurs. Near the end,
> > at the Upper Maaristrichtian, there was only one pterosaur whose wingspread
> > was less than 2 meters, while ALL known birds were 2 meters or less, and there
> > were *many* genera of pterosaurs at 4 or (many!) more meters.
> >
> Well, my knowledge is not as encyclopedic as yours, but the battle you relate reminds me of the epic battle between rhynchocephalians and today’s lizards. Those two clades seem to consist of guys that seemingly look and act alike and had an endless tug-of-war starting from back in the Triassic, where one could only seem to rise to dominance at the direct expense of the other.
This looks very promising, but it will take me quite a while to get really
well-informed about this. My first impression is that lizards really
started to take off in the Cretaceous, followed by a big explosion after the K-P extinction.
But the Triassic and the Jurassic might have seen some real competition.
Thank you for commenting in such detail. It got me looking up a whole bunch
of things that I was only dimly aware of before, including a lot of what I
wrote about above. This is the kind of interaction s.b.p. needs now,
what with so little participation by professionals.
Back in the 1990's it was a whole other scene. You may have heard
of Thomas Holtz, a great popularizer of dinosaurs. He was a regular
participant back then.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
https://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos