Testing a scientific hypothesis

[jillery]

The following Youtube video is of Erika aka Gutsick Gibbon reading a
recent paper that describes how the authors used observations of
extant chimpanzees to test for correlation of tree density with how
often they walk on the ground:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5amvoEp0j4>

The following is the cited paper:

<https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add9752>

From the abstract:
*************************
Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.
Chimpanzees living in analogous habitats to early hominins offer a
unique opportunity to investigate the ecological drivers of bipedalism
that cannot be addressed via the fossil record alone. We investigated
positional behavior and terrestriality in a savanna-mosaic community
of chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes schweinfurthii) in the Issa Valley,
Tanzania as the first test in a living ape of the hypothesis that
wooded, savanna habitats were a catalyst for terrestrial bipedalism.
Contrary to widely accepted hypotheses of increased terrestriality
selecting for habitual bipedalism, results indicate that trees
remained an essential component of the hominin adaptive niche, with
bipedalism evolving in an arboreal context, likely driven by foraging
strategy.
***************************

According to Erika, the above supports her thesis that the ancestral
human lineage was arboreally bipedal, and exapted that behavior to
terrestrial bipedalism as African jungles and forests shrank. This
hypothesis is further supported by the discovery of fossil
Sahelanthropus tchadensis:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahelanthropus>

--
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.

[marc verhaegen]

Op zaterdag 31 december 2022 om 11:25:35 UTC+1 schreef jillery:

> The following Youtube video is of Erika aka Gutsick Gibbon reading a
> recent paper that describes how the authors used observations of
> extant chimpanzees to test for correlation of tree density with how
> often they walk on the ground:
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5amvoEp0j4>
> The following is the cited paper:
> <https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add9752>
> From the abstract:

> Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
> have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.

...

BPism is NOT a defining feature of the "human" (hominoid? hominid? Homo?) lineage, of course.
Retreating forests had 0 to do with this.
Early-Miocene Hominoidea were already BP, not for running of course, but simply for wading upright in forest swamps (probably coastal forests):
- keeping the head above the water,
- climbing arms overhead in the branches above the swamp.

Google e.g.
- "bonobo wading" or "gorilla wading" &
- "aquarboreal".

[RonO]

My take is that it looks like the common ancestor of chimps and humans
wasn't as terrestrial as extant chimps and gorillas. That common
ancestor may have been taking the first steps to being a knuckle walker,
and was likely more arboreal than extant chimps. The deformation of the
hips would have been deleterious for quadrupedal terrestrial locomotion,
but studies indicate that it would have been adaptive for climbing
certain types of trees. Think of how pacific islanders climb coconut
palms. The hip deformation would have been better for distributing the
weight of a larger aboreal ape in the upright stance that chimps and
gibbons take when they grab a higher branch and stand up on a lower
branch in order to distribute their weight on two branches so that they
can get further out on the limb to collect the fruit.

So my take is that the hip deformation occurred first and forced a more
upright stance in a mostly arboreal ape, and that it turned out to also
be useful in terrestrial locomotion in terms of doing things like being
able to carry things as you walked. So increased terrestrial locomotion
would have occurred after the hip deformation allowing our ancestors to
skip becoming full blown knuckle walkers. We think that the some of the
terrestrial adaptations of chimps more similar to gorillas are derived
characters that evolved after the spilt between chimps and humans. The
hip deformation would have allowed exploitation of less dense forested
areas.

Ron Okimoto

[israel socratus]

-----------------
People and animals are one living creatures and they are equal before life and death,
and the only difference is that some are simpler, others are more complex
(their evolution is shorter or longer) and therefore some walk on four legs, others on two.
------------

[jillery]

On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 05:57:24 -0800 (PST), marc verhaegen
<littor...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Op zaterdag 31 december 2022 om 11:25:35 UTC+1 schreef jillery:
>
>> The following Youtube video is of Erika aka Gutsick Gibbon reading a
>> recent paper that describes how the authors used observations of
>> extant chimpanzees to test for correlation of tree density with how
>> often they walk on the ground:
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5amvoEp0j4>
>> The following is the cited paper:
>> <https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add9752>
>> From the abstract:
>> Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
>> have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.
>...
>
>BPism is NOT a defining feature of the "human" (hominoid? hominid? Homo?) lineage, of course.

Depends on what you mean by "human lineage". Like it or not, habitual
bipedalism is a distinguishing characteristic of extant humans from
other apes.

>Retreating forests had 0 to do with this.

That's what the video and paper said. Read/watch them again.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
> have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.

Is thought? By whom? And why do they think this?

Is this supposed to be science or religion?

> Chimpanzees living in analogous habitats to early hominins offer a
> unique opportunity to investigate the ecological drivers of bipedalism
> that cannot be addressed via the fossil record alone.

Chimps evolved from upright walkers. They are not a model for the LCA.

It's called GIGO: Garbage In/Garbage Out.

Feel free to misuse the term. Often. As if anyone would need to tell you.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/704857215274745857

[jillery]

On Sun, 1 Jan 2023 11:09:32 -0800 (PST), JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> jillery wrote:
>
>> Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
>> have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.
>
>Is thought? By whom? And why do they think this?
>
>Is this supposed to be science or religion?
>
>> Chimpanzees living in analogous habitats to early hominins offer a
>> unique opportunity to investigate the ecological drivers of bipedalism
>> that cannot be addressed via the fossil record alone.
>
>Chimps evolved from upright walkers. They are not a model for the LCA.

Too bad you're more interested in trolling that reading what you
pointlessly deleted.

>It's called GIGO: Garbage In/Garbage Out.

Who am I to doubt your description of your own posts.

>Feel free to misuse the term. Often. As if anyone would need to tell you.


--

[marc verhaegen]

Somebody:

> >> Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage ...

:-DDD You're entitled to your own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts.
Miocene Hominoidea were already bipedal in swamp forests, wading upright + climbing arms overhead in the branches above the swamp:
google "aquarboreal".

[Pro Plyd]

marc verhaegen wrote:
> Op zaterdag 31 december 2022 om 11:25:35 UTC+1 schreef jillery:
>
>> The following Youtube video is of Erika aka Gutsick Gibbon reading a
>> recent paper that describes how the authors used observations of
>> extant chimpanzees to test for correlation of tree density with how
>> often they walk on the ground:
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5amvoEp0j4>
>> The following is the cited paper:
>> <https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add9752>
>> From the abstract:
>> Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
>> have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.
> ...
>
> BPism is NOT a defining feature of the "human" (hominoid? hominid? Homo?) lineage, of course.
> Retreating forests had 0 to do with this.
> Early-Miocene Hominoidea were already BP, not for running of course, but simply for wading upright in forest swamps (probably coastal forests):
> - keeping the head above the water,

Four legged animals wade too and keep their head above
water. It isn't necessary to go on two legs. If the water
gets deep enough then the animal switches to swims.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wade
"to step in or through a medium (such as water) offering
more resistance than air"

There is NO mention of the number of legs involved in wading. None.

Can you provide an estimate of the amount of time wading that
would result in obligate bipedalism? No?

[Pro Plyd]

jillery wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 05:57:24 -0800 (PST), marc verhaegen
> <littor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Op zaterdag 31 december 2022 om 11:25:35 UTC+1 schreef jillery:
>>
>>> The following Youtube video is of Erika aka Gutsick Gibbon reading a
>>> recent paper that describes how the authors used observations of
>>> extant chimpanzees to test for correlation of tree density with how
>>> often they walk on the ground:
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5amvoEp0j4>
>>> The following is the cited paper:
>>> <https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add9752>
>>> From the abstract:
>>> Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
>>> have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.
>> ...
>>
>> BPism is NOT a defining feature of the "human" (hominoid? hominid? Homo?) lineage, of course.
>
>
> Depends on what you mean by "human lineage". Like it or not, habitual
> bipedalism is a distinguishing characteristic of extant humans from
> other apes.

As evidenced by the fact no other ape is an obligate biped.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> Too bad you're more interested in trolling

Speaking of which, you failed to address anything I said!

Whatever date for the LCA you want to fling around like poo in
a monkey cage, it comes AFTER the appearance of bipedalism.

Period.

It even appears before the most recent dating for the split from
gorillas!

No matter what, at least in the case of Chimps, bipedalism
VANISHED in the forests. It didn't appear there, it vanished there!

And this leads you to believe that it must've originated there?

So climb down from that branch, wash your hands and try to
respond instead of react, troll.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/705405424857497600

[JTEM is my hero]

Pro Plyd wrote:

> Can you provide an estimate of the amount of time wading that
> would result in obligate bipedalism? No?

Who told you it was all a matter of time, and how did you miss
their sarcasm?

Switch this around. Apply it to your precious savanna: How much
time did it take there? Why THAT much time? Why not more? Why
not less?

You don't appear to grasp the issues at all, quite frankly.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/705405424857497600

[jillery]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2023 02:06:17 -0800 (PST), JTEM wrote

>jillery wrote:
>
>> Too bad you're more interested in trolling
>
>Speaking of which, you failed to address anything I said!
>
>Whatever date for the LCA you want to fling around like poo in
>a monkey cage, it comes AFTER the appearance of bipedalism.

Speaking of which, the above shows how *you* failed to address
anything I or the cited video or the cited article said.


>Period.


Exactly.

>It even appears before the most recent dating for the split from
>gorillas!
>
>No matter what, at least in the case of Chimps, bipedalism
>VANISHED in the forests. It didn't appear there, it vanished there!

Non-sequitur. Chimps were never habitually bipedal.

>And this leads you to believe that it must've originated there?

Nope, it's called evidence; no belief required.

>So climb down from that branch, wash your hands and try to
>respond instead of react, troll.

You first, troll.

[jillery]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2023 02:09:25 -0800 (PST), JTEM wrote:

> Pro Plyd wrote:
>
>> Can you provide an estimate of the amount of time wading that
>> would result in obligate bipedalism? No?
>
>Who told you it was all a matter of time, and how did you miss
>their sarcasm?
>
>Switch this around. Apply it to your precious savanna: How much
>time did it take there? Why THAT much time? Why not more? Why
>not less?
>
>You don't appear to grasp the issues at all, quite frankly.

savanna and aquatic aren't the only options here.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> >Whatever date for the LCA you want to fling around like poo in
> >a monkey cage, it comes AFTER the appearance of bipedalism.

> Speaking of which, the above shows how *you* failed to address
> anything I or the cited video or the cited article said.

: Chimpanzees living in analogous habitats to early hominins offer a

: unique opportunity to investigate the ecological drivers of bipedalism
: that cannot be addressed via the fossil record alone.

Chimpanzees aren't a model at all, because they WERE bipedal and
then LOST IT. They evolved knuckle walking AFTER the LCA.

> Non-sequitur. Chimps were never habitually bipedal.

Given that the oldest Chimp remains are supposedly half a million
years old, you have no clue what so ever. But what we do know is that
the foramen magnum had to have moved considerably towards the
back of the skull, since divergence.

> Nope, it's called evidence; no belief required.

There's no such evidence in existence.

Go on. Cite the very oldest Chimp fossil.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/705405424857497600

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> savanna and aquatic aren't the only options here.

Aquatic is it. It's the only option.

I have ancestors that a sub saharan African does not, as they
have ancestors that are not shared with me. And, the only
population common to everyone is the Aquatic Ape population.
They are what spawned all the unique groups, and shared DNA
amongst them.






-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/705405424857497600

[jillery]

On Tue, 3 Jan 2023 11:02:23 -0800 (PST), JTEM wrote:
>jillery wrote:
>
>> >Whatever date for the LCA you want to fling around like poo in
>> >a monkey cage, it comes AFTER the appearance of bipedalism.
>
>> Speaking of which, the above shows how *you* failed to address
>> anything I or the cited video or the cited article said.
>
>: Chimpanzees living in analogous habitats to early hominins offer a
>: unique opportunity to investigate the ecological drivers of bipedalism
>: that cannot be addressed via the fossil record alone.
>
>Chimpanzees aren't a model at all, because they WERE bipedal and
>then LOST IT. They evolved knuckle walking AFTER the LCA.

It would help if you actually read the cited article and/or listened
to the cited video. Chimpanzees aren't used as a model of bipedality,
but as a tree-dwelling population required to move on land due to
reduced tree cover. Knuckle-walking doesn't inform the cited articles
point.

>> Non-sequitur. Chimps were never habitually bipedal.
>
>Given that the oldest Chimp remains are supposedly half a million
>years old, you have no clue what so ever.

And yet despite your cluelessiosity, you still insist chimps were once
bipedal then lost it. Your special priveleges remain remarkable.

>But what we do know is that
>the foramen magnum had to have moved considerably towards the
>back of the skull, since divergence.

What "we" do know is there are a number of anatomical features
required for obligate bipedality in primates. The position of the
foramen magnum is just one of them. Also required is restructuring
the anatomy from the pelvis down to the feet. If chimpanzee ancestors
ever were bipedal, extant chimpanzee anatomy would have evidence of
it. And it doesn't.

>> Nope, it's called evidence; no belief required.
>
>There's no such evidence in existence.
>
>Go on. Cite the very oldest Chimp fossil.

You first.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> It would help if you actually read the cited article and/or listened
> to the

"It would help if a priest told me what to believe."

This is a discussion group. Not a book club. And need I remind you
that you at least saw, if dd not post yourself using a different alter,
FOUR so called "Cites" that weren't even relevant to what was being
claimed under the "Ron O" handle? Albeit in another thread, but for
the sake of arguments let's agree that the universe does not begin
anew with each and every thread...

You use "Cites" to try and trick people, to fool them.

But it's irrelevant because, like I said, this is a discussion group and
not a book club...

> >Given that the oldest Chimp remains are supposedly half a million
> >years old, you have no clue what so ever.

> And yet despite your cluelessiosity,

So you have no clue what so ever. We agree on this. YOU have no
clue. There isn't a lick of physical evidence to support anything you
posted and, quite frankly, as a model it fails to account for what facts
we do know.

...and that makes everyone else bad.

> you still insist chimps were once bipedal

I didn't do the field work, i didn't write the papers; bipedalism is older
than the oldest date for Homo/Pan divergence.

You want to argue against THIS and yet pretend you're not an emotional
basket case?

Fascinating.

> then lost it.

It's called "Evolution," butter buns, not "Lost & found."

> Your special priveleges remain remarkable.

It's a "Privilege" to state facts...





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/705489318794362880

[jillery]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 13:03:21 -0800 (PST), JTEM wrote:

> jillery wrote:
>
>> It would help if you actually read the cited article and/or listened
>> to the
>
>"It would help if a priest told me what to believe."

The cited video is 30 minutes long. The article it cites is 6 pages
of text and graphs and pictures, and 3 pages of references. The
amount of time to read and listen and understand them is the minimum
required to know what you're talking about. That you refuse to invest
even that little bit shows you're proud of your willful stupidity.

Criticizing others for doing what you do while you do it is a standard
troll tactic. Stating facts is a privilege and a duty. Perhaps you
will try it sometime, if only for the novelty of the experience,
perhaps when you grow up.

[Zen Cycle]

On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 at 4:55:39 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
>
> What "we" do know is there are a number of anatomical features
> required for obligate bipedality in primates. The position of the
> foramen magnum is just one of them. Also required is restructuring
> the anatomy from the pelvis down to the feet. If chimpanzee ancestors
> ever were bipedal, extant chimpanzee anatomy would have evidence of
> it. And it doesn't.

There's also the "sudden" appearance of the nuchal ligament in Homo Erectus. To my knowledge there are no earlier instances in primates. Granted the nuchal ligament is understood to be necessary for running (especially 'endurance' running) rather than just bipedality, but it does speak to obligate bipedality.

[jillery]

I had not heard of "nuchal ligament" before you posted the above,
neither its sudden appearance among human ancestors, nor its lack
among other primates.

Other mammals which have a nuchal ligament are ungulates, equids, and
canids. As these evolved from 4-legged endurance runners, its
presence in humans is suggestive of parallel adaptations.

As a total pedantic aside, Wikipedia says the meat industry calls the
nuchal ligament a "paddywhack", from which is derived both Irish
epithets and children's songs. It's sometimes harvested as a chew toy
for dogs, as noted in the words:

"with a nick-nack paddywhack, give your dog a bone"

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> The cited video is 30 minutes long.

I never argue with videos (my room mate is a liar!) I was responding
to you, what you posted.

> The article it cites is 6 pages
> of text and graphs and pictures, and 3 pages of references.

And yet you can't form an argument, much less articulate same.
You want me to dig through everything and make your argument
for you. Which, admittedly, would be better than anything you could
come up with but I decline the invitation.

If you think you hold a position here, if you've made the mistake of
wanting to present an argument in defense of that position, you go
right ahead.

Nothing is stopping you... apart from your disorders.

> Criticizing others for doing what

You haven't made a case for anything. You posted something which
you probably don't understand, and you refuse to state much less
argue your views.

I know what this is about and, believe me, I am flattered but, no. I
won't have sex with you. And anyway I'd need to be on top and I
certainly wouldn't pull out. In fact, I'm kind of offended just by your
asking. I don't expect an apology, mind you. I'm just saying how I
feel... makes me really uncomfortable... you talking like that.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/705566252343738368

[jillery]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2023 15:47:29 -0800 (PST), JTEM wrote:

> jillery wrote:
>
>> The cited video is 30 minutes long.
>
>I never argue with videos (my room mate is a liar!) I was responding
>to you, what you posted.

More accurately, you don't argue at all. Instead, you spam
obfuscating noise and delete relevant content, just as you do here.

Nor did you respond to my comments. Instead, you posted stupid
objections, all of which were explained and refuted in the cited video
and article.

>> The article it cites is 6 pages
>> of text and graphs and pictures, and 3 pages of references.
>
>And yet you can't form an argument, much less articulate same.

If so, then you had nothing to "respond" to, which contradicts your
previous claim. But in fact, you deleted my articulated argument and
conveniently ignored it, and now you pretend you never saw it.

>You want me to dig through everything and make your argument
>for you. Which, admittedly, would be better than anything you could
>come up with but I decline the invitation.
>
>If you think you hold a position here, if you've made the mistake of
>wanting to present an argument in defense of that position, you go
>right ahead.
>
>Nothing is stopping you... apart from your disorders.
>
>> Criticizing others for doing what
>
>You haven't made a case for anything. You posted something which
>you probably don't understand, and you refuse to state much less
>argue your views.
>
>I know what this is about and, believe me, I am flattered but, no. I
>won't have sex with you. And anyway I'd need to be on top and I
>certainly wouldn't pull out. In fact, I'm kind of offended just by your
>asking. I don't expect an apology, mind you. I'm just saying how I
>feel... makes me really uncomfortable... you talking like that.

Reading the original posts proves that all of your comments above are
transparent lies. That's all you can post when you're proud of your
willful stupidity. You have much in common with other T.O. trolls.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> More accurately, you don't argue at all.

Yeah. That's me. Never argues.

Now you were just acting like the Supreme Pussy of all of usenet,
refusing to render an opinion and defend it, insisting that I'm
supposed to GUESS at what your position might be...

> If so, then you had nothing to "respond" to

Not according to you. You posted some bullshit about Chimps
and I did respond to that, but now you insist that wasn't you
posting what you posted, and I should watch a video and guess
as what you meant, which was something other than the actual
words that you posted...

> Reading the original posts

No, someone deleted all the text even though it's still there -- "They
SNIPPED!" -- and that's why you look like such a goddamn idiot.

(I'm still not going to pull out)


-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/705559606386147328

[jillery]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2023 22:50:16 -0800 (PST), JTEM wrote:

>jillery wrote:
>
>> More accurately, you don't argue at all.
>
>Yeah. That's me. Never argues.
>
>Now you were just acting like the Supreme Pussy of all of usenet,
>refusing to render an opinion and defend it, insisting that I'm
>supposed to GUESS at what your position might be...
>
>> If so, then you had nothing to "respond" to
>
>Not according to you.

Nope. According to YOU. Try to keep up.

>You posted some bullshit about Chimps
>and I did respond to that,

Nope.

>but now you insist that wasn't you
>posting what you posted,

Nope.

>and I should watch a video and guess
>as what you meant,

Nope.

>which was something other than the actual
>words that you posted...

Nope.

>> Reading the original posts
>
>No, someone deleted all the text even though it's still there -- "They
>SNIPPED!" -- and that's why you look like such a goddamn idiot.

You're embarrassing yourself.

>(I'm still not going to pull out)

That's what your daddy told you.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> Nope.
> Nope.
> Nope.
> Nope.
> Nope.

Chimps still aren't a model for any human ancestor. They're
not even a model for Chimp ancestors! Whatever date you
want to make up for the LCA, it came AFTER bipedalism.

You're welcome.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/705742582064496640

[jillery]

On Sat, 7 Jan 2023 10:58:21 -0800 (PST), JTEM spammed:

>Chimps still aren't a model for any human ancestor.

You're spamming strawmen.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> You're

You're an illiterate twat but allow me to remind you of
what you posted and I was responding to...

: Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought
: to have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.

: Chimpanzees living in analogous habitats to early hominins offer
: a unique opportunity to investigate the ecological drivers of
: bipedalism

Again: CHIMPS AREN'T A MODEL FOR ANY HUMAN ANCESTOR!

Chimps aren't even a model for any Chimp ancestor! They ARE
a bipedal species that evolved *Away* from bipedalism and
towards knuckle dragging.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/705742582064496640

[jillery]

On Sat, 7 Jan 2023 21:56:20 -0800 (PST), JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Again: CHIMPS AREN'T A MODEL FOR ANY HUMAN ANCESTOR!

Again: NOBODY SAID THEY ARE.

For once, read for comprehension, if only for the novelty of the
experience.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> JTEM is my hero

> >Again: CHIMPS AREN'T A MODEL FOR ANY HUMAN ANCESTOR!

> Again: NOBODY SAID THEY ARE.

A lack of reading comprehension does not an argument make, sugar
lumps:

: Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought
: to have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.
: Chimpanzees living in analogous habitats to early hominins offer
: a unique opportunity to investigate the ecological drivers of
: bipedalism

So now you're pretending that you don't believe we can learn about
"a defining feature of the human lineage" by studying Chimpanzees?

You're a train wreck.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/705489318794362880

[Pro Plyd]

JTEM is my hero wrote:
> Pro Plyd wrote:
>
>> Can you provide an estimate of the amount of time wading that
>> would result in obligate bipedalism? No?
>
> Who told you it was all a matter of time, and how did you miss
> their sarcasm?
>
> Switch this around. Apply it to your precious savanna: How much
> time did it take there? Why THAT much time? Why not more? Why
> not less?
>
> You don't appear to grasp the issues at all, quite frankly.

I was asking marc verhaegen. It appears the question was too
hard.

[Pro Plyd]

JTEM is my hero wrote:

It's the one you're using to state that they were bipedal and
lost it. You would not have made such a statement without
evidence, right?

[JTEM is my hero]

I was pointing out why it was a dumb question.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/707031415595925504

[JTEM is my hero]

Pro Plyd wrote:

> It's the one you're using to state that they were bipedal and
> lost it.

Not me. The peanut gallery says Chimps & humans split around
6 million years ago and bipedalism was already going strong
at least 7 million years ago.

By the "Arguments" of the savanna idiots, Chimps evolved
knuckle walking from a bipedal ancestor.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/707031415595925504

[jillery]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 23:05:21 -0800 (PST), JTEM trolled:

> Pro Plyd wrote:
>
>> It's the one you're using to state that they were bipedal and
>> lost it.
>
>Not me.

Yes you.

> The peanut gallery says Chimps & humans split around
>6 million years ago and bipedalism was already going strong
>at least 7 million years ago.
>
>By the "Arguments" of the savanna idiots, Chimps evolved
>knuckle walking from a bipedal ancestor.

To apply Sahelanthropus tchadensis evidence coherently, distinguish
between arboreal bipedalism and terrestrial bipedalism. Arboreal
bipedalism is a plausible precursor to both terrestrial bipedalism and
knuckle walking, to both Australopith and Pan.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> > The peanut gallery says Chimps & humans split around
> >6 million years ago and bipedalism was already going strong
> >at least 7 million years ago.
> >
> >By the "Arguments" of the savanna idiots, Chimps evolved
> >knuckle walking from a bipedal ancestor.

> To apply Sahelanthropus tchadensis evidence coherently, distinguish
> between arboreal bipedalism and terrestrial bipedalism. Arboreal
> bipedalism is a plausible precursor to both terrestrial bipedalism and
> knuckle walking, to both Australopith and Pan.

Which is circular. There's no such thing as "Arboreal Bipedalism in any
sense that could be relevant here. You begin with a conclusion -- that
this imaginary "Arboreal Bipedalism" was a thing and then pronounce
any evidence of bipedalism as proof of it.

The foramen magnum in Sahelanthropus tchadensis is described by
many cites as CLOSER TO humans than even Lucy's ilk, and Lucy's
kind are believed even by the savanna idiots to have walked upright.
Sahelanthropus tchadensis was an animal evolved to keep it's head
upright n a way that no other primate, except for humans, ever does so.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/search/bipedal

[jillery]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 14:49:29 -0800 (PST), JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com> wrote:

>There's no such thing as "Arboreal Bipedalism

Stanford CB. Arboreal bipedalism in wild chimpanzees: implications for
the evolution of hominid posture and locomotion. Am J Phys Anthropol.
2006 Feb;129(2):225-31. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.20284. PMID: 16288480.

<https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20284>

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> Stanford CB. Arboreal bipedalism in wild chimpanzees:

Chimpanzees evolved AWAY from bipedalism and to knuckle walking. The
are not a model for the origins of bipedalism. It's just plain stupid.

No, not merely "Wrong" but *Stupid*.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/707214039249485824

[jillery]

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 19:46:29 -0800 (PST), JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> jillery wrote:
>
>>>There's no such thing as "Arboreal Bipedalism"
>>
>>
>>Stanford CB. Arboreal bipedalism in wild chimpanzees: implications for
>>the evolution of hominid posture and locomotion. Am J Phys Anthropol.
>>2006 Feb;129(2):225-31. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.20284. PMID: 16288480.
>>
>><https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20284>
>

>Chimpanzees evolved AWAY from bipedalism and to knuckle walking.

In order to evolve AWAY from bipedalism, chimpanzee WERE arboreally
bipedal.

>The
>are not a model for the origins of bipedalism. It's just plain stupid.
>
>No, not merely "Wrong" but *Stupid*.

I agree you're *Stupid*

[marc verhaegen]

Op dinsdag 3 januari 2023 om 07:05:38 UTC+1 schreef Pro Plyd:
...

> >> Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
> >> have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.

...

> > BPism is NOT a defining feature of the "human" (hominoid? hominid? Homo?) lineage, of course.
> > Retreating forests had 0 to do with this.
> > Early-Miocene Hominoidea were already BP, not for running of course, but simply for wading upright in forest swamps (probably coastal forests):
> > - keeping the head above the water,

> Four legged animals wade too and keep their head above
> water.

Yes, but they're no primates: google e.g.
- "bonobo wading" or "gorilla wading" &
- "aquarboreal".

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> In order to evolve AWAY from bipedalism, chimpanzee WERE arboreally
> bipedal.

No, that's circular. It's circle-jerk thinking. Use your Autism, grasshopper:

If living in the trees made them bipedal, unlike any other ape, then why
did living in the trees make them knuckle walkers?

The LCA was bipedal. The LCA looked more like Homo than Pan. The
forest is where Chimps LOST their bipedalism.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709843474858622976

[jillery]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 12:37:20 -0800 (PST), JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com> wrote:

> jillery wrote:
>
>> In order to evolve AWAY from bipedalism, chimpanzee WERE arboreally
>> bipedal.
>
>No, that's circular. It's circle-jerk thinking. Use your Autism, grasshopper:

Lose your autism, pismire.

>If living in the trees made them bipedal, unlike any other ape, then why
>did living in the trees make them knuckle walkers?

Since you asked, orangutans and gibbons are extant arboreal bipeds.
Knuckle-walking in trees is maladaptive. You're welcome.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> >No, that's circular. It's circle-jerk thinking. Use your Autism, grasshopper:

> Lose your autism, pismire.

Lol! You're hilarious! You're a small child, mentally, parroting the grownups!

> >If living in the trees made them bipedal, unlike any other ape, then why
> >did living in the trees make them knuckle walkers?

> Since you asked, orangutans and gibbons

Nobody knows. "Molecular Dating" is a fraud. Everything else is guess work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantopithecus

It's younger than habilis! Read all the DIFFERENT classifications. None of
them are fact. Of course idiots like you hear the latest OPINION and fool
yourself into believing that you're hearing fact...

Truth is, we're talking about Chimps and Chimps share a common ancestor
with humans, and that common ancestor lived AFTER bipedalism was on
the scene. So have your religious faith in whatever your authority figures
want to leave behind in your mouth after they pull out. It doesn't matter. The
problem is you: You can't follow a conversation, not even your own half.

Best advice I heard all day and you need to hear it:

"Never be more stupid than you have to be."







-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/tagged/UFOs

[jillery]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 21:02:52 -0800 (PST), JTEM continued to troll:

> jillery wrote:
>
>> >No, that's circular. It's circle-jerk thinking. Use your Autism, grasshopper:
>
>> Lose your autism, pismire.
>
>Lol! You're hilarious! You're a small child, mentally, parroting the grownups!

Sez the willfully stupid troll.

>> >If living in the trees made them bipedal, unlike any other ape, then why
>> >did living in the trees make them knuckle walkers?
>

>> Since you asked, orangutans and gibbons are extant arboreal bipeds.
>> Knuckle-walking in trees is maladaptive. You're welcome.
>

>Nobody knows. "Molecular Dating" is a fraud. Everything else is guess work.

So after stupidly claiming arboreal bipedality doesn't exist in other
apes, you're not interested in extant examples of arboreal bipedality
in other apes. Quelle surprise.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantopithecus
>
>It's younger than habilis! Read all the DIFFERENT classifications. None of
>them are fact. Of course idiots like you hear the latest OPINION and fool
>yourself into believing that you're hearing fact...
>
>Truth is, we're talking about Chimps and Chimps share a common ancestor
>with humans, and that common ancestor lived AFTER bipedalism was on
>the scene.

And your "truth" is ...

>So have your religious faith in whatever your authority figures
>want to leave behind in your mouth after they pull out. It doesn't matter. The
>problem is you: You can't follow a conversation, not even your own half.

... which doesn't inform talking about chimps and their common
ancestry with humans. This is what makes your posts self-parody.

>Best advice I heard all day and you need to hear it:
>
>"Never be more stupid than you have to be."

Follow your own advice, idiot.

[JTEM is my hero]

Emotionally crippled & Autistic, jillery wrote:

> Sez

Chimps still aren't a model for a Chimp ancestor, let alone any
human ancestor. The LCA was bipedal. Chimps LOST their
bipedalism, gained knuckle walking in the forest.

This is never going to change, and you are never going to be
neurotypical.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/25145388699

[jillery]

On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 20:35:40 -0800 (PST), JTEM is my hero
<jte...@gmail.com> continued to post willfully stupid trolls:

>Emotionally crippled & Autistic, jillery wrote:
>
>> Sez
>
>Chimps still aren't a model for a Chimp ancestor, let alone any
>human ancestor. The LCA was bipedal. Chimps LOST their
>bipedalism, gained knuckle walking in the forest.

That's what I said:
******************************

>To apply Sahelanthropus tchadensis evidence coherently, distinguish
>between arboreal bipedalism and terrestrial bipedalism. Arboreal
>bipedalism is a plausible precursor to both terrestrial bipedalism and
>knuckle walking, to both Australopith and Pan.

******************************
Try to keep up, if only for the novelty of the experience.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> ******************************
> >To apply Sahelanthropus tchadensis evidence coherently, distinguish
> >between arboreal bipedalism and terrestrial bipedalism.

There's no such thing as "Arboreal Bipedalism." It's like claiming "Blind
sight" or "Crippled running."

You're attributing power to your language, insisting that because you
chose a word it makes it that word.

Chimps are not "Arboreal Bipedals." They are bipedal animals that adapted
to the forest, became knuckle walkers. They are a model for LOSING
bipedalism, exactly the opposite of what you were claiming and will no
doubt deny.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/710311843910041600

[jillery]

On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 13:36:30 -0800 (PST), JTEM continued to post
willfully stupid trolls:

>There's no such thing as "Arboreal Bipedalism." It's like claiming "Blind
>sight" or "Crippled running."
>
>You're attributing power to your language, insisting that because you
>chose a word it makes it that word.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5amvoEp0j4>
<https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add9752>


People who actually know what they are talking about disagree with
your willfully stupid opinion.

[Mark Isaak]

On 2/26/23 1:36 PM, JTEM is my hero wrote:
> jillery wrote:
>
>> ******************************
>>> To apply Sahelanthropus tchadensis evidence coherently, distinguish
>>> between arboreal bipedalism and terrestrial bipedalism.
>
> There's no such thing as "Arboreal Bipedalism." It's like claiming "Blind
> sight" or "Crippled running."

Actually, blindsight is a real thing.

--
Mark Isaak
"Wisdom begins when you discover the difference between 'That
doesn't make sense' and 'I don't understand.'" - Mary Doria Russell

[JTEM is my hero]

Mark Isaak wrote:

> Actually, blindsight is a real thing.

As opposed to "Arboreal Bipedalism," you're saying?





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/710781751785619456

[JTEM is my hero]

Sinfully ignorant and emotionally disturbed, jillery wrote:

> People who

Yeah, so once again you refuse to Google "Fallacious Arguments"
and "Appeal to Authority" in particular.

Chimps are not bipedal. They LOST bipedalism when their ancestors
took to the forest.

They are NOT a model for bipedalism, the human ancestor nor even
their own goddamn Chimp ancestor.






-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/710781751785619456

[jillery]

On Sat, 4 Mar 2023 22:33:10 -0800 (PST), JTEM continued to troll:

>Yeah, so once again you refuse to Google "Fallacious Arguments"
>and "Appeal to Authority" in particular.
>
>Chimps are not bipedal. They LOST bipedalism when their ancestors
>took to the forest.
>
>They are NOT a model for bipedalism, the human ancestor nor even
>their own goddamn Chimp ancestor.

Repeating willful stupidity is a good illustration of self-parody.

[JTEM is my hero]

Shameless troll, jillery mistakenly wrote:

> Repeating

Yeah. Repeating the fact that the ancestor of Chimps was bipedal, and
that Chimps are not a model for Chimp evolution much less human.

THEIR ANCESTOR WAS BIPEDAL!




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/711356336312582144

[jillery]

On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 21:10:34 -0800 (PST), JTEM continued to troll:


>THEIR ANCESTOR WAS BIPEDAL!


Only one ancestor? So you're a Creationist. Quelle surprise.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

[...]

Read your subject line. You typed it. Read your initial post.

: Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to

: have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.

I do not believe this. it's dumb. They came up with a conclusion --
"Dis is how it happened & stuff" and the rest is idiocy to rationalize
their mistake.

Aquatic Ape is the answer, the good Doctor is right, and I would
suspect that the defining moment occurred some 8.7 million
years ago, after a super volcanic eruption. Such an event would
have heavily favored populations along water's edge and closer
to the equator. The closer to the equator, the easier to ride out
the volcanic winter. Water moderates temperature so they
would have remained a little warmer than inland groups. And the
sea is a far more stable source of protein.

It probably started long before then but that was likely a very
important, defining moment in our evolution.

: Chimpanzees living in analogous habitats to early hominins offer a
: unique opportunity to investigate the ecological drivers of bipedalism
: that cannot be addressed via the fossil record alone.

This is the opposite of true. Chimps are knuckle walkers. They LOST
bipedalism. They are not a model for an animal on the cusp of
evolving bipedalism, they arose from bipedal ancestors. They LOST
their bipedalism when they took to their present environment(s).

You will continue to act out, no doubt, but none of this is going to
change.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709313954911027200

[jillery]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 22:19:11 -0700 (PDT), JTEM continued to troll:

>Read your subject line. You typed it. Read your initial post.
>
>: Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
>: have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.

The above are not my words, but from a cited article, as stated in my
initial post.

>I do not believe this. it's dumb. They came up with a conclusion --
>"Dis is how it happened & stuff" and the rest is idiocy to rationalize
>their mistake.

You disagree without basis with someone who has recognized expertise.
You have none. Spamming your baseless opinions neither informs nor
persuades.

[marc verhaegen]

Op donderdag 16 maart 2023 om 03:50:28 UTC+1 schreef jillery continued to troll:

> >: Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
> >: have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.

> The above are not my words, but from a cited article, as stated in my
> initial post.

Yes, but you repeated this anatomically & physiologically impossible fantasy.
When forests retreat in Africa, you'll find more savanna baboons, which are more quadrupedal than forest baboons.

Miocene Hominoidea were already frequently bipedal in swamp forests, for:
-wading upright in the shallow water &
-climbing arms overhead in the branches above the water.
Hylobatids (siamangs, gibbons) are still upright=vertical brachiators in trees.
Pongids (orangutans) still occasionally wade bipedally in forest swamps, in spite of Pleist.coolings.
Lowland gorillas still wade bipedally for sedges in forests swamps, and bonobos for waterlilies etc.
Pleistocene Homo frequently dived for shellfish, cf.
--stone tools for opening shells + handiness,
--human-made shell engravings, google "Joordens Munro",
--brain enlargement++, cf. DHA & other brain-specific nutirents in shellfish etc.,
--island colonizations, as far as Java & even Flores:
that explains why we lost our fur, got SC fat-layers, sebaceous glands, smaller mouth & tongue-bone descent (suction), ext.nose & voluntary breathing (shallow diving) etc.,
and only this can explain why H.erectus evolved pachy-osteo-sclerosis (very thick & dense skeletons, which are only seen in slow+shallow-diving animals).

Google:
-aquarboreal,
-GondwanaTalks verhaegen. :-)

Written by the good Doctor... :-)

[jillery]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 08:03:39 -0700 (PDT), marc verhaegen
<littor...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Op donderdag 16 maart 2023 om 03:50:28 UTC+1 schreef jillery continued to troll:

Parroting words you clearly don't understand reflects poorly on you.

>> >: Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
>> >: have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.
>
>> The above are not my words, but from a cited article, as stated in my
>> initial post.
>
>Yes, but you repeated this anatomically & physiologically impossible fantasy.

More accurately, I quoted a recognized authority in the field, who in
turn cited multiple authorities in the field. What is your basis for
claiming the quote is "anatomically & physiologically impossible
fantasy"? To be credible, you need more than "because I said so",
which is what JTEM trolled.

>When forests retreat in Africa, you'll find more savanna baboons, which are more quadrupedal than forest baboons.

If chimpanzee are irrelevant to the origins of human bipedalism, which
is what JTEM trolled, then baboons are even more irrelevant.

>Miocene Hominoidea were already frequently bipedal in swamp forests, for:
>-wading upright in the shallow water &
>-climbing arms overhead in the branches above the water.
>Hylobatids (siamangs, gibbons) are still upright=vertical brachiators in trees.
>Pongids (orangutans) still occasionally wade bipedally in forest swamps, in spite of Pleist.coolings.
>Lowland gorillas still wade bipedally for sedges in forests swamps, and bonobos for waterlilies etc.
>Pleistocene Homo frequently dived for shellfish, cf.
>--stone tools for opening shells + handiness,
>--human-made shell engravings, google "Joordens Munro",
>--brain enlargement++, cf. DHA & other brain-specific nutirents in shellfish etc.,
>--island colonizations, as far as Java & even Flores:
>that explains why we lost our fur, got SC fat-layers, sebaceous glands, smaller mouth & tongue-bone descent (suction), ext.nose & voluntary breathing (shallow diving) etc.,
>and only this can explain why H.erectus evolved pachy-osteo-sclerosis (very thick & dense skeletons, which are only seen in slow+shallow-diving animals).
>
>Google:
>-aquarboreal,
>-GondwanaTalks verhaegen. :-)
>
>Written by the good Doctor... :-)

Doctor of what? From which institution?

Stipulating for arguments' sake your comments above are factually
correct, they presume your aquaboreal apes were already at least
partially bipedal at the time they became aquaboreal, and so don't
inform the origin of bipedalism.

[peter2...@gmail.com]

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 2:37:32 AM UTC-5, jillery wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 21:10:34 -0800 (PST), JTEM continued to troll:
>
>
> >THEIR ANCESTOR WAS BIPEDAL!
>
>
> Only one ancestor? So you're a Creationist.

Non sequitur.

In context, what JTEM meant that the LCA of humans and chimps
was bipedal. He even said so, explicitly:

********************************

Chimps still aren't a model for a Chimp ancestor, let alone any
human ancestor. The LCA was bipedal. Chimps LOST their
bipedalism, gained knuckle walking in the forest.

*************************************************
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/Q1Ka3XMmG1o/m/OsDbe3GyAQAJ
Re: Testing a scientific hypothesis
Feb 25, 2023, 11:40:11 PM


> Quelle surprise.

You have a bad habit of counting your chickens before they are hatched.


Peter Nyikos

[jillery]

On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 09:42:05 -0700 (PDT), "peter2...@gmail.com"
<peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:


>You have a bad habit of counting your chickens before they are hatched.

You have a Bad Habit(c) of jumping into topics without even trying to
comprehend context, a habit several other posters aped during your
absence.

[Zen Cycle]

On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 10:35:37 PM UTC-4, jillery wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 09:42:05 -0700 (PDT), "peter2...@gmail.com"
> <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >You have a bad habit of counting your chickens before they are hatched.
> You have a Bad Habit(c) of jumping into topics without even trying to
> comprehend context, a habit several other posters aped during your
> absence.

In other words, he wasn't missed.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery lied:

> On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 22:19:11 -0700 (PDT), JTEM continued to truthl:

> >Read your subject line. You typed it. Read your initial post.
> >
> >: Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
> >: have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.

> The above are not my words

You posted them. You did. And now you're starting to glimpse the
error and are backing away from them, only you're not healthy
enough to admit your mistake.

> >I do not believe this. it's dumb. They came up with a conclusion --
> >"Dis is how it happened & stuff" and the rest is idiocy to rationalize
> >their mistake.

> You disagree without basis with

Shut your trap, you dirt eating mongoloid. I've spelled out the basis:

CHIMPS EVOLVED FROM A BIPEDAL ANCESTOR!

THAT, you intellectually challenged mutant, if the basis!

You're so far removed from anyone intelligent that you can't even
manage the slightest reading comprehension!

This is the reason for the sock puppets: Your SHAME!




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/713714006743973888

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> More accurately, I quoted a recognized authority in the field, who in
> turn

Who cares? The LCA was NOT a knuckle walker! The OLDEST Chimp
fossil, until the owners of paleo anthropology invent one, is about
HALF A MILLION years old, significantly younger than erectus!

AND IT'S ONLY A TOOTH!

Well. "Teeth," last read... some teeth... literally, there is nothing else.

The most obvious conclusion here is NOT that we're missing 5.5
million years worth of Chimp fossils prior to that, and several hundred
thousand years AFTER that date, but that we've been finding Chimp
ancestors all along. They just don't look like Chimps!

The good Doctor even talks about THAT....

But there's proof positive that you are a jackoff and your "Cite" is
nonsense: Chimps evolved from a bipedal ancestor. The LCA was
bipedal.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/713714006743973888

[marc verhaegen]

...

> > >: Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
> > >: have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.

...
Yes, "thought" by some retarded savanna believers...

Google "Nasalis wading".
Mio-Pliocene Hominoidea frequently waded bipedally in swamp forests + climbed arms overhead in the branches above the water.
Today, only humans & hylobatids still walk frequently bipedally.

[jillery]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2023 17:23:09 -0700 (PDT), JTEM trolled:

>jillery wrote:
>
>> More accurately, I quoted a recognized authority in the field, who in
>> turn
>
>Who cares?

If you, then back up your claims with something other than "cuz I say
so!".

If not you, then it's stupid for you to continue to troll about it.

Pick your poison.

> The LCA was NOT a knuckle walker!

Nobody said it was. More to the point, that wasn't the point which
"JTEM is my hero <jte...@gmail.com>" raised, and wasn't the point
which "marc verhaegen <littor...@gmail.com>" raised, and wasn't
the point to which I replied above.

My reply, which you conveniently deleted, was to a post from "marc
verhaegen <littor...@gmail.com>", in a sub-thread which he renamed
to "Africa", from the original thread "Testing a scientific
hypothesis", which "JTEM is my hero <jte...@gmail.com>" continues to
troll.

If "marc verhaegen <littor...@gmail.com>" is a separate poster
from "JTEM is my hero <jte...@gmail.com>", then JTEM's reply above is
irrelevant noise. OTOH, if these two emails addresses are from the
same person, then you have violated expressed T.O. policy of using
multiple and simultaneous email addresses. Pick your poison.

[marc verhaegen]

Op donderdag 6 april 2023 om 21:35:13 UTC+2 schreef marc verhaegen:

savanna believer:

> > > >: Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
> > > >: have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.

> Yes, "thought" by some retarded savanna believers...
> Google "Nasalis wading".
> Mio-Pliocene Hominoidea frequently waded bipedally in swamp forests + climbed arms overhead in the branches above the water.
> Today, only humans & hylobatids still walk frequently bipedally.

& great apes still wade bipedally, google "bonobo wading", "gorilla wading", "orangutan wading".

Wading = origin of bipedalism!

[JTEM is my hero]

Retarded. No questiion about it. Retarded. jillery wrote:

[...]

Again, name what fact you want to dispute.

It is understood that your mental disorder requires you to "Disagree,"
and nobody cares anyway. But you're pretending to not be able to
verify facts so spell out what facts specifically.

I tried to help, I asked if the problem was Coastal Dispersal. I asked if
that was the subject you found nothing on.

Have you done the Google on the human brain & DHA yet?

You haven't retracted any of your stupid remarks yet so does that mean
you're a pussy or that you still can't find any cites?

This is not an outpatient clinic. I am not here to be understanding and
helpful. STOP waving your disorders around and I won't treat you like
a disordered spazz.

Be specific: WHAT facts are you feeling like you want to dispute?




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/713876271508193280

[jillery]

On Fri, 7 Apr 2023 15:12:45 -0700 (PDT), JTEM trolled:
>
>Retarded. No questiion about it. Retarded. jillery wrote...


... nothing below. Quelle surprise.

>
> [...]
>
>Again, name what fact you want to dispute.
>
>It is understood that your mental disorder requires you to "Disagree,"
>and nobody cares anyway. But you're pretending to not be able to
>verify facts so spell out what facts specifically.
>
>I tried to help, I asked if the problem was Coastal Dispersal. I asked if
>that was the subject you found nothing on.
>
>Have you done the Google on the human brain & DHA yet?
>
>You haven't retracted any of your stupid remarks yet so does that mean
>you're a pussy or that you still can't find any cites?
>
>This is not an outpatient clinic. I am not here to be understanding and
>helpful. STOP waving your disorders around and I won't treat you like
>a disordered spazz.
>
>Be specific: WHAT facts are you feeling like you want to dispute?


--

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> ... nothing below. Quelle surprise.

What? What are you asking for, you worthless spazz? What did you fail
to find any information on? What are you disputing?

If you weren't mentally unhinged you would be able to tell us exactly
what you couldn't find in your Google searches.

You're a faker. You're a fraud. Regardless of handle, of alter, you're a
fraud.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/713876271508193280

[Pancho Sanza]

Gisulat ni GondwanaTalks Verhaegen:

>GondwanaTalks verhaegen. :-)

Stop boring the people in this serious newsgroup with
your silly Water Ape Gospel, GondwanaTalks!

--
Pancho

[Pro Plyd]

jillery wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 23:05:21 -0800 (PST), JTEM trolled:
>
>> Pro Plyd wrote:
>>
>>> It's the one you're using to state that they were bipedal and
>>> lost it.
>>
>> Not me.
>
> Yes you.

Correct.

>> The peanut gallery says Chimps & humans split around
>> 6 million years ago and bipedalism was already going strong
>> at least 7 million years ago.
>>
>> By the "Arguments" of the savanna idiots, Chimps evolved
>> knuckle walking from a bipedal ancestor.

>
>
> To apply Sahelanthropus tchadensis evidence coherently, distinguish

> between arboreal bipedalism and terrestrial bipedalism. Arboreal
> bipedalism is a plausible precursor to both terrestrial bipedalism and
> knuckle walking, to both Australopith and Pan.

Bipedal behavior in trees has been rather well observed

[Pro Plyd]

marc verhaegen wrote:
> Op dinsdag 3 januari 2023 om 07:05:38 UTC+1 schreef Pro Plyd:
> ...

>
>>>> Bipedalism, a defining feature of the human lineage, is thought to
>>>> have evolved as forests retreated in the late Miocene-Pliocene.
>

> ...
>
>>> BPism is NOT a defining feature of the "human" (hominoid? hominid? Homo?) lineage, of course.
>>> Retreating forests had 0 to do with this.
>>> Early-Miocene Hominoidea were already BP, not for running of course, but simply for wading upright in forest swamps (probably coastal forests):
>>> - keeping the head above the water,
>
>> Four legged animals wade too and keep their head above
>> water.
>
> Yes, but they're no primates: google e.g.

So? Humans are then only obligate biped. Pretty much all other primates
are *facultative* bipeds and otherwise move around quadrupedally.

> - "bonobo wading" or "gorilla wading" &
> - "aquarboreal".
>

[Pro Plyd]

Google apes facultative bipeds

They show far more bipedal behavior in trees and on land than
they ever do.

From Frans de Waals' bonobo book, an interview with Barbara
Fruth and Gottfried Hohmann, who have observed bonobos in the
wild since 1990 (you can see this here)

<https://books.google.com/books?id=VVgcNpuozScC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=%22The+apes+sometimes+wade+for+hours+through+the+stream+bed.%22&source=bl&ots=mRqCIs2U3q&sig=ACfU3U1Yb78wWqds3bI012ntNliRaWQbeQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjz1uTe_6D-AhUAFFkFHSIZABoQ6AF6BAgJEAM#v=onepage&q=%22The%20apes%20sometimes%20wade%20for%20hours%20through%20the%20stream%20bed.%22&f=false>

Fruth: [... bonobos eating tiny crustaceans in streams ...]
The apes sometimes wade for hours through the stream bed.

Frans de Waal: Bipedally?

Fruth: [laughing...] No, they simply wade through the water
on all fours; these little streams are very shallow.

And in a footnote of Frans de Waal's to this part of the interview:

I had earlier published some tongue-in-cheek speculations
about how bonobos might fit the "Aquatic Ape" theory,
according to which our ancestors began to walk upright
when wading into shallow water (de Waal 1989, 182-86). Reports
had suggested that bonobos enter streams bipedally. Fruth
and Hohmann, however, have never seen such behavior.


YOU have never done such field work.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2023-04-10 22:15:45 +0000, Pancho Sanza said:

> Gisulat ni GondwanaTalks Verhaegen:

If Google Translate is to be believed that is in Ilocano, a language I
hadn't heard of before, but apparently spoken in the northern
Philippines. Is that where you are?

>
>> GondwanaTalks verhaegen. :-)
>
> Stop boring the people in this serious newsgroup with
> your silly Water Ape Gospel, GondwanaTalks!


--

athel -- biochemist, not a physicist, but detector of crackpots

[JTEM is my hero]

Pro Plyd wrote:


> > To apply Sahelanthropus tchadensis evidence coherently, distinguish
> > between arboreal bipedalism and terrestrial bipedalism.

So between something that isn't bipedal from something that is. Wow.
That's a stumper.

> > Arboreal bipedalism is a plausible precursor

This is idiocy. "Chimps became bipedal by living in trees, and then became
knuckle walkers the same way!"

There's no distinction. You're claiming that it's a dice roll: "Maybe it's
bipedalism this time, maybe it isn't."

Chimps were bipedal, their ancestors anyway. And now they're not. They
lost their bipedalism by adapting to the forest.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/714267256849301504

[JTEM is my hero]

Pro Plyd wrote:

> They show far more bipedal behavior in trees and on land than
> they ever do.

"There's your problem right there, lady."




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/714267256849301504

[israel socratus]

On Tuesday, April 11, 2023 at 9:55:17 AM UTC+3, JTEM is my hero wrote:
> Pro Plyd wrote:
>
> > They show far more bipedal behavior in trees and on land than
> > they ever do.

-------------------------------
“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio,
than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” /Hamlet/

[Pancho Sanza]

Gisulat ni Athel Cornish-Bowden:

>>Gisulat ni GondwanaTalks Verhaegen:

>If Google Translate is to be believed that is in Ilocano, a language I
>hadn't heard of before, but apparently spoken in the northern
>Philippines. Is that where you are?

Yeah, right up north. Quite cold here, actually!

>athel -- biochemist, not a physicist, but detector of crackpots

I sniffed out GondwanaTalks Verhaegen as a crackpot instantly after his
first post to a Dutch newsgroup (nl.wetenschap). How long did it take
you?

--
Pancho

[jillery]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 22:22:52 -0600, Pro Plyd <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Exactly so, a relevant point lost in the noise and ignored by the
trolls.

[jillery]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 23:53:58 -0700 (PDT), JTEM trolled:
>
> Pro Plyd wrote...


... nothing below.

>> > To apply Sahelanthropus tchadensis evidence coherently, distinguish
>> > between arboreal bipedalism and terrestrial bipedalism.
>
>So between something that isn't bipedal from something that is. Wow.
>That's a stumper.

Only to those who can't comprehend written English.

>> > Arboreal bipedalism is a plausible precursor
>
>This is idiocy. "Chimps became bipedal by living in trees, and then became
>knuckle walkers the same way!"

"Chimp" refers to a modern species, and didn't exist when S.tchadensis
did.

>There's no distinction. You're claiming that it's a dice roll: "Maybe it's
>bipedalism this time, maybe it isn't."
>
>Chimps were bipedal, their ancestors anyway. And now they're not. They
>lost their bipedalism by adapting to the forest.

Cite evidence that "chimp" ancestors were bipedal, assuming you know
how to cite.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Longer than that. I think I only became certain of it during the
current flood of crackpottery.


--

[Pancho Sanza]

Gisulat ni Athel Cornish-Bowden:

>>I sniffed out GondwanaTalks Verhaegen as a crackpot instantly after his
>>first post to a Dutch newsgroup (nl.wetenschap). How long did it take
>>you?

>Longer than that. I think I only became certain of it during the
>current flood of crackpottery.

Constantly repeating the same dross time after time after time is a tell
tale sign of an original village idiot unwittingly betraying himself.

Btw, which one do you like best: GondwanaTalks Verhaegen or Nando
Ronteltap?

In our Dutch science newsgroup we have another one, someone who believes
in UFOs, Aliens from the Plejades and Bigfeet on planet Earth.

I think everyone should try to see the funny and positive side of their
local crackpots.

--
Pancho

[Pancho Sanza]

Gisulat ni Pancho Sanza:

>Constantly repeating the same dross time after time after time is a tell
>tale sign of an original village idiot unwittingly betraying himself.

Not quite happy with the word "betraying". It should have been
"exposing".

Please rectify this in your copy of my previous post.

--
Pancho

[JTEM is my hero]

Pancho Sanza wrote:

> I sniffed out GondwanaTalks Verhaegen as a crackpot instantly after his
> first post to a Dutch newsgroup (nl.wetenschap). How long did it take
> you?

Which, considering that you're attacking him -- ad hominem -- and not what
he's saying, that would make you out to be retarded. I mean, if he's THAT
bad and you failed to find a single point of disagreement.. well.. you're
retarded. You're a paste eating, hockey helmet wearing retard.

Congratulations.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/714293011660587008

[JTEM is my hero]

israel socratus wrote:

> JTEM is my hero wrote:
> > Pro Plyd wrote:
> >
> > > They show far more bipedal behavior in trees and on land than
> > > they ever do.
> -------------------------------
> “There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio,
> than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” /Hamlet/

Given the context that should read: "There are more things and less things
in Heaven and Earth but not in those places than are and not dreamt in your
philosophy."




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/714293011660587008

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery rubbed fecal matter on his face & wrote:

> Only to those who can't comprehend written English.

These aren't magic words. "Bipedal" isn't a behavior. Chimps aren't
bipedal. Sure, many dogs can and do walk on their hind legs on
command, but they're not bipedal either. THESE ARE NOT MAGIC
SPELLS! These are not magical incantations. "Bipedal" is physical,
it's evident in the skeleton. It's biology.

You are making distinctions without a difference, and too stupid
to see this even when it's pointed out to you.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/714293011660587008

[JTEM is my hero]

Pancho Sanza wrote:

> Constantly repeating the same dross time after time after time is a tell
> tale sign of an original village idiot unwittingly betraying himself.

Inventing ever more sock puppets to cower behind and hurl insults at
people you couldn't hope to debate with may be cheaper than real
mental health treatment, but in the end you're just going to die this
messed up.

Try to fight against your nature.

The good Doctor is right about Aquatic Ape. It's the only model for
human origins that actually works. You can debate the details but
the overriding fact of Aquatic Ape has to be true.

Our dependence on DHA for our brains, all by itself, means we had to
have evolved under circumstances with abundant DHA...



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/714293011660587008

[marc verhaegen]

kudu runner:

> Btw, which one do you like best: GondwanaTalks Verhaegen or Nando
> Ronteltap?

Who is Nando? another kudu runner?

*Every* detail is biologically/anatomically/geologically/medically/scientifically correct here
(publications in Nature etc.):
Nasalis monkeys wade bipedally in mangrove forests + sometimesclimb arms overhead.
c 30-20 Ma:
India approaching S-Asia at first formed island archipels, full of coastal forests:
Catarrhini reaching these islands became Hominoidea: wading bipedally + climbing arms overhead = aquarboreal.
c 20 Ma:
India further underneath Asia split hylobatids (E) & other=great apes (W) in coastal forests along N-Tethys Ocean.
c 15 Ma:
The Mesopotamian Seaway closure split pongids (E) & hominids (W): hominids in the Med.Sea coastal forests.
Some hominids s.s. (i.c. Gorilla-Homo-Pan) colonized the swamp forests of the (then incipient) Red Sea.
c 8-7 Ma:
N-Rift fm, followed by Gorilla -> Afar -> Sahelanthr., Praeanthr.afarensis Lucy etc. ->boisei, today G.gorilla & beringei.
c 6-5 Ma:
Red Sea opens into Gulf (Francesca Mansfield thinks caused by Zanclean mega-flood 5.33 Ma):
- Pan right: E.Afr.coastal forests -> S-Rift -> Transvaal -> Austr.africanus->robustus (// Gorilla) -> today Pan trogl. & paniscus.
- Homo left: S.Asian coasts -> Java early-Pleist. -> shallow-dving: pachy-osteo-sclerosis, DHA, brain+, tool use, shell engravings...
mid->late-Pleist.: diving->wading->walking H.sapiens.

Simple, no? :-)

Gorilla are known to make & use Oldowan tools:
did late-Miocene hominids (Red Sea) already used stone tools for removing oysters from mangrove trees? + opening them?

AFAWK, of all Hominoidea, only Homo can dive:
why did Homo (only early-Pleist.?) evolve from aquarboreal to shallow-diving?
- pachyosteosclerosis (exclusively seen in shallow-diving tetrapods),
- platycephaly, platymeria, platypelloidy,
- longer & more horizontal femoral necks (lateral leg movements),
- larger apertura nasalis (big nose),
- more dorsal foramen magnum (eyes directed more rostrally),
- brain much larger (seafood + DHA etc),
- island colonisations, e.g. Flores >18 km oversea,
- shell engravings, google "Joordens, Munro",
- better stone tools etc.

https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/

[Pancho Sanza]

Gisulat ni JTEM is my hero:

>>I sniffed out GondwanaTalks Verhaegen as a crackpot instantly after his
>>first post to a Dutch newsgroup (nl.wetenschap).

>Which, considering that you're attacking him [blah blah] well.. you're

>retarded. You're a paste eating, hockey helmet wearing retard.

Yep. Scored again! This one seems rather aggressive.

--
Pancho

[Pancho Sanza]

Gisulat ni crackpot "JTEM is my hero":

>>Constantly repeating the same dross time after time after time is a tell
>>tale sign of an original village idiot unwittingly betraying himself.

>Inventing ever more sock puppets to cower behind and hurl insults at

>people you couldn't hop [blah blah]

You're very boring as well as utterly predictable. Do something about
it.

--
Pancho

[JTEM is my hero]

Pancho Sanza wrote:

> Yep. Scored again!

Peed and hit your shoes, again!

Let me remind you that you're using this pathetic sock
puppet to engage in ad hominem, again! You can't find fault in
any argument, again! And you're too mentally ill to refrain from
responding, again!



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/714293011660587008

[Pancho Sanza]

Gisulat ni crackpot JTEM is my hero:

>[Blah blah] this pathetic sock puppet to engage in ad hominem,
>[blah blah] you're too mentally ill to refrain from responding,
>again!

Find something useful to do instead of boring grown-ups with your
infantile insults, wanky boy.

--
Pancho

[israel socratus]

-----------------
The structure of the "Heaven" of the infinite cosmic vacuum is more complex,
than you can dream in your philosophy.
-----.
"The laws of physics as we understand them make it eminently plausible
that our universe arose from nothing - no space, no time, no particles,
nothing that we now know of."
/Lawrence Krauss/
“The most fundamental question facing 21st century physics will be:
What is the vacuum? As quantum mechanics teaches us,
with its zero point energy this vacuum is not empty and the
word vacuum is a gross misnomer!”
/ Prof. Friedwardt Winterberg /
When the next revolution rocks physics, chances are
it will be about nothing - — the vacuum, that endless infinite void.
http://discovermagazine.com/2008/aug/18-nothingness-of-space-theory-of-everything
------

[jillery]

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 13:42:47 -0700 (PDT), JTEM trolled:


> Chimps aren't bipedal.


YOU are the one who claims "chimps" were once bipedal.

[JTEM is my hero]

Pancho Sanza wrote:

[...]

You've literally been defeated. You needed to pretend that bipedalism
arose in the forest, because you're a jackass, and you failed in your
<ahem> "Argument." You were trounced. So you're not even trying
anymore. You're just trolling, you're pathetically trying to (f)Lame your
way out of it.

Chimps __Lost__ their bipedalism in the forest. The forest is where
bipedalism went to die.

The good Doctor posits that Chimps are descended from
Australopithecus. I don't expect you to agree with anything not
coming from a religious authority for you, and I don't know if he's
right but, I DEFINITELY know that he's thinking along the right
lines.

Look. The popular dating for the LCA is like 6 million years, based on
mtDNA and some imaginary "Molecular Clock." Choose this date and
we are missing 5.5 million years of Chimp fossils, and most of the
Chimp fossils that came after that.

They're missing too.

Now one hypothesis that explains this is the idea that we've already
found them, we just don't recognize them as Chimp ancestors. And
given how close Chimps are to us, their DNA, some even argue that
Pan should be abolished and Chimps should be grouped under Homo,
and the dating for the LCA pretty much requires a bipedal ancestor,
chances are the LCA looked a lot more like Homo than Pan.











-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/714525062601064448

[JTEM is my hero]

Genuinely retarded and desperate for negative attention, jillery wrote:

> My beloved JTEM truthed:

> > Chimps aren't bipedal.

> YOU are the one who claims "chimps" were once bipedal.

The LCA was bipedal. Present day Chimps evolved from a bipedal ancestor.

There is nothing inconsistent here accept, in your case, the availability of
mental health resources.






-- --

http://jtem.tumblr.com

[Pro Plyd]

JTEM is my hero wrote:

Do you know how to follow attributions?

[Pro Plyd]

JTEM is my hero wrote:

> Pro Plyd wrote:
>
>> They show far more bipedal behavior in trees and on land than
>> they ever do.
>
> "There's your problem right there, lady."

They live on *land* (which includes trees). You know that, right?

[Pro Plyd]

jillery wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 23:53:58 -0700 (PDT), JTEM trolled:
>>

>>

>> Chimps were bipedal, their ancestors anyway. And now they're not. They
>> lost their bipedalism by adapting to the forest.
>
>
> Cite evidence that "chimp" ancestors were bipedal, assuming you know
> how to cite.
>

None posted so far.

[jillery]

On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 13:12:22 -0700 (PDT), JTEM trolled:

>
>Genuinely retarded and desperate for negative attention, jillery wrote:
>
>> My beloved JTEM truthed:
>
>> > Chimps aren't bipedal.
>
>> YOU are the one who claims "chimps" were once bipedal.
>
>The LCA was bipedal. Present day Chimps evolved from a bipedal ancestor.

Cite.