[Next Project] Olney Hymns by John Newton and William Cowper

[Cecil New]

Research completed and here is my proposed next project.

Spreadsheet at link.

• Current plan is to include row 353, but omit 350-352, 354-357

Research thread for reference: link.

Empty github link included below along with some cover ideas.

Scans:  

• Internet Archive and

• Google Books

Sources: 

• Wikisource and

• Wikisource

GitHub: link. (empty for now)

Cover Possibilities: 

1. Portrait of John Newton (the primary author): link.

2. The Olney church: link.

3. SE Art DB This has a church with a river in the foreground. This could depict the river that runs close by the Olney Church

4. A water color of the interior of the church here.

[Alex Cabal]

OK, Emma will manage with Weijia reviewing.

A painting of the church would be appropriate if you can find PD proof.

As far as the spreadsheet goes, what I'm going to do is remove the hymns
from it and rename it "John Newton — Poetry" and leave only rows 350-357.

On 1/29/26 9:31 AM, Cecil New wrote:
> Research completed and here is my proposed next project.
>

> Spreadsheet at link <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/
> d/1utRMMQLHqa6iUBTcJ5SRsPo6yeozIB5y2i3UPSsBGq0/edit?gid=0#gid=0>.
>
> * Current plan is to include row 353, but omit 350-352, 354-357
>
> Research thread for reference: link <https://groups.google.com/g/
> standardebooks/c/drSF-1Ag5KQ/m/uA0DIvctDAAJ>.

>
>
> Empty github link included below along with some cover ideas.
>
>
> Scans:
>

> *
>
> Internet Archive <https://archive.org/details/
> olneyhymnsinthre00cowpuoft/page/n6/mode/1up> and
>
> *
>
> Google Books <https://www.google.com/books/edition/
> The_Poetical_Works_of_William_Cowper/CBqsxmNTN3kC?
> hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22Longing%20to%20be%20with%20Christ%22>
>
> Sources:
>
> *
>
> Wikisource <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)> and
>
> *
>
> Wikisource <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/
> The_Poetical_Works_of_William_Cowper_(Benham)/
> Olney_Hymns#:~:text=LXVIII.%20LONGING%20TO%20BE%20WITH%20CHRIST>__
>
> GitHub: link <https://github.com/mandolyte/john-newton_william-
> cowper_olney-hymns>. (empty for now)
>
> Cover Possibilities:
>
> 1.
>
> Portrait of John Newton (the primary author): link <https://
> cowperandnewtonmuseum.org.uk/amazing-grace-250-virtual-exhibition/
> #:~:text=Portrait%20of%20Revd.%20John%20Newton>.
>
> 2.
>
> The Olney church: link <https://cowperandnewtonmuseum.org.uk/
> amazing-grace-250-virtual-exhibition/
> #:~:text=View%20of%20Olney%20Church,
> %20with%20Great%20House%20and%20Mill>.
>
> 3.
>
> SE Art DB <https://standardebooks.org/images/cover-uploads/1084.jpg?
> ts=1707767909>This has a church with a river in the foreground. This
> could depict the river that runs close by the Olney Church <https://
> www.google.com/maps/place/St+Peter+%26+St+Paul+Church/
> @52.1502753,-0.7022963,16.82z/data=!4m15!1m8!3m7!
> 1s0x4877a831601f8713:0xf5581f1810955233!2sOlney,+UK!3b1!8m2!
> 3d52.1535273!4d-0.7018707!16zL20vMDIxbHJs!3m5!
> 1s0x4877a8de246b28d3:0x9e96d2a7f0fcb5db!8m2!3d52.1499065!
> 4d-0.7009336!16s%2Fg%2F1hc4hny6z?
> entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDEyNi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D>
>
> 4.
>
> A water color of the interior of the church here <https://
> cowperandnewtonmuseum.org.uk/amazing-grace-250-virtual-exhibition/
> #:~:text=constructed%20for%20Newton-,Watercolour%20on%20paper,-
> Walter%20Pennington%20Storer>.
>
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[Emma Sweeney]

If you want to use The Church of Vétheuil by Claude Monet, let me know and I'll update the art DB. The others need PD proof.

Also, see the poem how-to guide on file formatting and verse paragraphs.

Emma

[Weijia Cheng]

Ok, noted.

[Cecil New]

(I'll tag different topics with item numbers).

Item #1: Per https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=james+andrews+olney&title=Special%3AMediaSearch&type=image 

The painting is public domain. Is that acceptable?

I think I can get a good cropping. If OK, can you add it and reserve it?

Thanks!

[Emma Sweeney]

You must locate a reproduction of that painting in a book published before January 1, 1931 (SEMoS 10.3.3.7.1).

Emma

[Cecil New]

As I expected from the "how to guide" on poetry, the xhtml pages are pretty worthless. But before I get into this, I wanted to affirm the overall structure of the book.

Item #2: There are almost 350 hymns organized into three books. The hymns in each book differ in some details on how they are structured. Based on the how-to, I think I will have three files, one for each book. Is that correct?

Item #3: Handling extra info in header/footer for hymns in book one...

For example, the hymns in book one (almost) always have scripture reference. But sometimes they have more than one. Here is the scan and transcription for Book I, Hymn 20, for an example:
- scan: https://archive.org/details/olneyhymnsinthre00cowpuoft/page/75/mode/1up

- ts: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/Book_1/Hymn_20

The Wikisource transcription puts the references in the poem title. And then has a "footnote" to cover other references. 

In the SE corpus, I have seen both complicated headers such as this from CS Lewis's poetry:

<hgroup>
<h4 epub:type="ordinal z3998:roman">XXI</h4>
<p epub:type="title">The Autumn Morning</p>
</hgroup>

and footers such as this in  Geo McDonald's poetry:
<footer>
<p epub:type="z3998:signature"><abbr epub:type="z3998:personal-name">G. M. D.</abbr> <abbr class="eoc">Jr.</abbr></p>
<p>Algiers, April, 1857.</p>
</footer>

What do you recommend?

Thanks!

[Cecil New]

On the painting... unlikely it was ever in a book. So lets go with the one already in the DB. Thanks.

[Emma Sweeney]

I. I've updated the art DB.

2. Correct, there will be three book files.

3. This looks like the poem headers would be structured like:

<header>

<hgroup>
<h3 epub:type="ordinal z3998:roman">XX</h3>
<p epub:type="title">Balaam's Wish</p>
</hgroup>

<p epub:type="bridgehead">Numbers 23:10.</p>

</header>

"Book iii, Hymn 71." would be converted to an endnote.

Emma

[Cecil New]

Item #5: On the front matter... cut the introductory essay but retain the preface. Correct?

Item #6: About the indices... There are two of them: a first line index and a title index. I assume they should be retained and I would prefer that since it is a common practice for hymns. I also have a metrical index that I would love to add to make it easier for the reader to find a tune to which to sing them. So:

1. Retain the first line and title indices, correct?

2. Is it permissible to add a metrical index?

Item #7: The scan is a bit unusual in that it uses decimal numbers instead of Roman numerals. And the numbers go to nearly 150. So should I use Roman numerals? And if so, should this be an [Editorial] commit?

[Cecil New]

Item #8: The verses are numbered in both scan and transcription, which is standard for hymns, but unusual for poetry. I could not find any guidance for this, except for the caesura example, which isn't quite the same thing. 

Assuming we retain them, can you provide an example markup to use?

Thanks!

[Cecil New]

Item #9: I made a mockup of the first book here. Could verify that I am on the right track?

Thanks!

[Emma Sweeney]

5. Cut the Essay. Keep the Preface.

6. Cut both indices. You can search for text in ebooks, and the ToC should look similar to the title index. Can you send a link to the metrical index?

7. You can use Arabic numbers for numbering the hymns. Use Roman numerals for the book and stanza numbering.

8. Take a look at the Nibelungenlied for numbered stanzas.

9.

a. You're missing the <html>, <head>, <body>, etc. elements at the beginning of the file. You can copy that from the Step-by-Step guide.

b. The book file semantics should be <section id="book-1" epub:type="part">

c.The <section> elements aren't quite right. For example the first hymn should look like:

<section id="hymn-1-1" epub:type="z3998:hymn">
<header>
<hgroup>
<h3 epub:type="ordinal">1</h3>
<p epub:type="title">Adam</p>
</hgroup>
<p epub:type="bridgehead">Genisis 3.</p>
</header>

<section id="stanza-1-1-1">

<header>

<p>I</p>

</header>

<p>

<span>...</span>
</p>

</section>

<section id="stanza-1-1-2">

<header>

<p>II</p>

</header>

<p>

<span>...</span>
</p>

</section>

...
</section>

d. You need to add poem formatting for the stanza lines found in SEMoS 7.1.

Emma

[Alex Cabal]

I don't think we wan the metrical index, that is ancillary information
that someone can look up elsewhere. In general our ebooks should be just
the books themselves.

On 1/30/26 6:51 AM, Cecil New wrote:
> *Item #5:* On the front matter... cut the introductory essay but retain
> the preface. Correct?
>
> *Item #6:* About the indices... There are two of them: a first line

> index and a title index. I assume they should be retained and I would
> prefer that since it is a common practice for hymns. I also have a
> metrical index that I would love to add to make it easier for the reader
> to find a tune to which to sing them. So:
> 1. Retain the first line and title indices, correct?
> 2. Is it permissible to add a metrical index?
>

> *Item #7:* The scan is a bit unusual in that it uses decimal numbers

> instead of Roman numerals. And the numbers go to nearly 150. So should I
> use Roman numerals? And if so, should this be an [Editorial] commit?
>
> On Thursday, January 29, 2026 at 11:05:32 PM UTC-5 Emma Sweeney wrote:
>
> I. I've updated the art DB.
>
> 2. Correct, there will be three book files.
>
> 3. This looks like the poem headers would be structured like:
> <header>
> <hgroup>
> <h3 epub:type="ordinal z3998:roman">XX</h3>
> <p epub:type="title">Balaam's Wish</p>
> </hgroup>
> <p epub:type="bridgehead">Numbers 23:10.</p>
> </header>
>
> "Book iii, Hymn 71." would be converted to an endnote.
>
>
> Emma
> On Thursday, January 29, 2026 at 9:06:51 PM UTC-5 ceci...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> On the painting... unlikely it was ever in a book. So lets go
> with the one already in the DB. Thanks.
>
> On Thursday, January 29, 2026 at 9:03:19 PM UTC-5 Cecil New wrote:
>
> As I expected from the "how to guide" on poetry, the xhtml
> pages are pretty worthless. But before I get into this, I
> wanted to affirm the overall structure of the book.
>

> *Item #2: *There are almost 350 hymns organized into three

> books. The hymns in each book differ in some details on how
> they are structured. Based on the how-to, I think I will

> have three files, one for each book. /Is that correct?/
>
> *Item #3: *Handling extra info in header/footer for hymns in

> book one...
> For example, the hymns in book one (almost) always have
> scripture reference. But sometimes they have more than one.
> Here is the scan and transcription for Book I, Hymn 20, for
> an example:
> - scan: https://archive.org/details/

> olneyhymnsinthre00cowpuoft/page/75/mode/1up <https://
> archive.org/details/olneyhymnsinthre00cowpuoft/page/75/mode/1up>
> - ts: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/
> Book_1/Hymn_20 <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/
> Olney_Hymns_(1840)/Book_1/Hymn_20>

>
> The Wikisource transcription puts the references in the poem
> title. And then has a "footnote" to cover other references.
>
> In the SE corpus, I have seen both complicated headers such

> as this from CS Lewis's poetry <https://github.com/
> standardebooks/c-s-lewis_poetry/blob/master/src/epub/text/
> spirits-in-bondage-chapter-14.xhtml#:~:text=poem%22%3E-,
> %3Chgroup%3E,-%3Ch4%20epub>:

> <hgroup>
> <h4 epub:type="ordinal z3998:roman">XXI</h4>
> <p epub:type="title">The Autumn Morning</p>
> </hgroup>
>

> and footers such as this in  Geo McDonald's poetry <https://
> github.com/standardebooks/george-macdonald_poetry/blob/
> master/src/epub/text/poetry.xhtml#:~:text=%3C/div%3E-,
> %3Cfooter%3E,-%3Cp%20epub:type>:

> <footer>
> <p epub:type="z3998:signature"><abbr
> epub:type="z3998:personal-name">G. M. D.</abbr> <abbr
> class="eoc">Jr.</abbr></p>
> <p>Algiers, April, 1857.</p>
> </footer>

> /What do you recommend?/
>
> Thanks!

>
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[Cecil New]

Thanks! I hope to have the initial commit ready in a couple of days. Unless the other two books have something I haven't thought of, this should be a good start.

[Cecil New]

Just thinking out loud... here is my plan:

- For step 6 (rough cleanup), I will create the three book files with just the raw text with the minimum of markup.

- do the initial commit

- Nothing to do for step 7...

- In step 8, I'll do some scripting to add the markup to each hymn

- Add markup and correct as needed

- do se clean

- do second commit

It will takes a few days before I get to the first commit.

[Cecil New]

This morning I completed creating all three book files with the raw content. The first one looks like below. My next step is write the script that transforms this to the correct xhtml for each hymn. The indentation will be done at the same time based my metrical index. 

My question is this... should I do my initial commit with it in this state? Or should I develop my script and check it in after it is in correct xhtml?

Thanks!

<h>

1.

Adam.—Gen. iii.

s1line1

s1line2

s1line3

s1line4

s2line1
s2line2

s2line3

s2line4

...

</h>

[Emma Sweeney]

The initial commit should have the Wikisource transcription formatting, and the second commit will have the correct poem formatting. You can label the second commit something like "Add poem formatting".

Emma

[Cecil New]

Just want to be sure... the Wikisource transcription has 169 files, here are the first ten:

$ ls | head -10
c100_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_97.xhtml
c101_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_98.xhtml
c102_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_99.xhtml
c103_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_100.xhtml
c104_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_101.xhtml
c105_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_102.xhtml
c106_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_103.xhtml
c107_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_104.xhtml
c108_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_105.xhtml
c109_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_106.xhtml

When I'm done there will only be three: book-[1,2,3].xhtml.

An initial commit of the Wikisource files are just going to be deleted in the next and replaced by my three.

My intended process is following 

https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to-structure-and-style-large-poetic-productions#:~:text=%3C/html%3E-,MANUAL%20TRANSCRIPTION,-In%20some%20cases

[Emma Sweeney]

Wikisource allows you to download the whole transcription into one file. Here is a copy of the HTML version. 

Replacing the Wiki transcription file with your 3 book files is same as replacing the body.xhtml file with chapter files in Step 7, except you have to do more formatting work. If there is an outage at Wikisource or you accidentally delete a whole section while formatting, you can refer back to your initial commit.

Emma

[Cecil New]

That is way cool. Consider putting some wikisource tips in the step guide. My last project was also wikisource and this tidbit would have made things a bit smoother 

Cecil

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[Emma Sweeney]

You just click the blue Download button in the top right corner, click "Looking for a different format?", select HTML under "File format", and export.

Emma

[Cecil New]

Quick question... the hymns that were written by William Cowper are indicated by simple "C." at the end of what will become the bridgehead. This method of identifying Cowper's poems is mentioned in the preface here. 

OK to leave this as it is? Just feels like short shrifting...

[Emma Sweeney]

We do have a `epub:type="contributors"` semantic (SEMoS 7.2.10.11), but I'm not sure if this is something we want to keep. Alex, what do you think?

Emma

[Alex Cabal]

Can you send a page scan of an example?

On 2/4/26 9:34 PM, Cecil New wrote:
> Quick question... the hymns that were written by William Cowper are
> indicated by simple "C." at the end of what will become the bridgehead.
> This method of identifying Cowper's poems is mentioned in the preface

> here <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/
> Preface#:~:text=Though%20it%20is%20possible%20a%20good%20judge%20of%20composition%20might%20be%20able%20to%20distinguish%20those%20which%20are%20his,%20I%20have%20thought%20it%20proper%20to%20preclude%20misapplication,%20by%20prefixing%20the%20letter%20C.%20to%20each%20of%20them.%20For%20the%20rest%20I%20must%20be%20responsible.>.

> <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to-
> structure-and-style-large-poetic-
> productions#:~:text=%3C/
> html%3E-,MANUAL%20TRANSCRIPTION,-In%20some%20cases>

> /Just thinking out loud... here is my plan:/

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[Cecil New]

Sure. Below is a snippet and some links. All the scans I have come across do the same. The CCEL transcriptions put either Newton's or Cowper's name at top left of their web page.
https://archive.org/details/olneyhymnsinthre00cowpuoft/page/59/mode/1up
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/Book_1/Hymn_3 

https://ccel.org/ccel/newton/olneyhymns/olneyhymns.Book1.GEN.h1_3.html

[Alex Cabal]

What about having the full name of either writer (Cowper, Newton) on
their respective poems? Could be right below the number and above the
epigraph. Then just edit the preface to specify this and not whatever
else it said.

On 2/5/26 3:04 PM, Cecil New wrote:
> Sure. Below is a snippet and some links. All the scans I have come
> across do the same. The CCEL transcriptions put either Newton's or
> Cowper's name at top left of their web page.
> https://archive.org/details/olneyhymnsinthre00cowpuoft/page/59/mode/1up
> https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/Book_1/Hymn_3
> https://ccel.org/ccel/newton/olneyhymns/olneyhymns.Book1.GEN.h1_3.html
>

> > https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to- <https://
> standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to->

> > structure-and-style-large-poetic-
> > productions#:~:text=%3C/
> > html%3E-,MANUAL%20TRANSCRIPTION,-In%20some%20cases

> > <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to- <https://
> standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to->

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[Cecil New]

That would work. So just to confirm everything... especially two points... 1) author name above the bridgehead (epigraph?) and 2) the use of Roman numerals for the stanzas (which, for hymns at least, are unusual). First here is how hymn three looks in the transcription:

Then here is what the XML will look like:

<section id="hymn-1-3" epub:type="z3998:hymn">
<header>
<hgroup>
<h3 epub:type="ordinal">3</h3>
<p epub:type="title">Walking with God</p>
</hgroup>
                <p epub:type="z3998:author">William Cowper</p>
<p epub:type="bridgehead">Gen. v,24</p>
</header>
<section id="stanza-1-3-1">

<header>
<p>I</p>
</header>
<p>
<span>...</span>
</p>
</section>

<section id="stanza-1-3-2">

<header>
<p>II</p>
</header>
<p>
<span>...</span>
</p>
</section>

[Emma Sweeney]

• Replace `<p epub:type="z3998:author">William Cowper</p>` with `<p epub:type="contributors">By William Cowper</p>` (SEMoS 7.2.10.11).
• Your bridgehead needs a period (SEMoS 7.2.11.3). You also have a typo.
• You'll need to add the `epub:type="z3998:roman"` semantic to the Roman numeral headers. The stanza numbering uses Roman numerals, because the numbering doesn't go above 100.
• The file structure looks fine but check with `se clean` and `se lint` for errors I might have missed.

Emma

[Alex Cabal]

In the contributor <p> I would just put the last name and nothing else.
Since there are hundreds of these, the fewer words the better, else it
becomes very redundant

On 2/5/26 10:30 PM, Emma Sweeney wrote:
> * Replace `<p epub:type="z3998:author">William Cowper</p>` with `<p

> epub:type="contributors">By William Cowper</p>` (SEMoS 7.2.10.11

> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.6/single-page#7.2.10.11>).
> * Your bridgehead needs a period (SEMoS 7.2.11.3 <https://
> standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.6/single-page#7.2.11.3>). You also
> have a typo.
> * You'll need to add the `epub:type="z3998:roman"` semantic to the

> Roman numeral headers. The stanza numbering uses Roman numerals,
> because the numbering doesn't go above 100.

> * The file structure looks fine but check with `se clean` and `se

> lint` for errors I might have missed.
>
>
> Emma
> On Thursday, February 5, 2026 at 11:04:54 PM UTC-5 ceci...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> That would work. So just to confirm everything... especially two
> points... 1) author name above the bridgehead (epigraph?) and 2) the
> use of Roman numerals for the stanzas (which, for hymns at least,
> are unusual). First here is how hymn three looks in the transcription:

> page/59/mode/1up <https://archive.org/details/
> olneyhymnsinthre00cowpuoft/page/59/mode/1up>
> > https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/Book_1/
> Hymn_3 <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/
> Book_1/Hymn_3>
> > https://ccel.org/ccel/newton/olneyhymns/
> olneyhymns.Book1.GEN.h1_3.html <https://ccel.org/ccel/newton/
> olneyhymns/olneyhymns.Book1.GEN.h1_3.html>

> >
> > Screenshot from 2026-02-05 16-00-58.png
> >
> > On Thursday, February 5, 2026 at 2:08:42 PM UTC-5 Alex Cabal
> wrote:
> >
> > Can you send a page scan of an example?
> >
> > On 2/4/26 9:34 PM, Cecil New wrote:
> > > Quick question... the hymns that were written by William
> Cowper are
> > > indicated by simple "C." at the end of what will become the
> > bridgehead.
> > > This method of identifying Cowper's poems is mentioned in the
> > preface
> > > here <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/
> <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/>

> > <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/ <https://

> <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to-> <https://
> > standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to- <http://

> standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to->>
> > > structure-and-style-large-poetic-
> > > productions#:~:text=%3C/
> > > html%3E-,MANUAL%20TRANSCRIPTION,-In%20some%20cases
> > > <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to-

> <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to-> <https://
> > standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to- <http://

> > <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>>

> <https://
> > > groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/719bac30- <http://

> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/719bac30-> <http://

> > groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/719bac30- <http://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/719bac30->>
> > > cb92-4346-9a11-29f367ebfadan%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>

> > <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>>?

> > > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> > >
> > > --
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> msgid/ <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/>

> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <https://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/>>
> > > standardebooks/fb0631bd-f5d9-44f1-
> > bc2f-4b569b6b1f8an%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com> <http://40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>>
> > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/fb0631bd-

> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/fb0631bd->
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/>
> > fb0631bd-f5d9-44f1->
> > > bc2f-4b569b6b1f8an%40googlegroups.com

> <http://40googlegroups.com>?
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> > standardebooks/a8118458-8670-4805-
> adb1-3c93a4b862fdn%40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>
> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/
> a8118458-8670-4805- <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> standardebooks/a8118458-8670-4805->
> > adb1-3c93a4b862fdn%40googlegroups.com?

> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <http://40googlegroups.com?
> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/b3cf8df8-2b89-4ace-
> a344-1a4466b5ba5fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Cecil New]

Or perhaps only provide the contributor when it is Cowper? And let the default be Newton (which is how it works in original published editions).

Cecil

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/b76bd3e3-956b-4615-a38b-1e4bc3ae6ff8%40standardebooks.org.

[Alex Cabal]

I think I prefer listing both names. If it looks too annoying it would
be easy to change.

On 2/7/26 11:28 AM, Cecil New wrote:
> Or perhaps only provide the contributor when it is Cowper? And let the
> default be Newton (which is how it works in original published editions).
> Cecil
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2026 at 9:58 AM 'Alex Cabal' via Standard Ebooks
> <standar...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standar...@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
>
> In the contributor <p> I would just put the last name and nothing else.
> Since there are hundreds of these, the fewer words the better, else it
> becomes very redundant
>
> On 2/5/26 10:30 PM, Emma Sweeney wrote:
> >   * Replace `<p epub:type="z3998:author">William Cowper</p>` with `<p
> >     epub:type="contributors">By William Cowper</p>` (SEMoS 7.2.10.11
> >     <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.6/single-

> page#7.2.10.11 <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.6/single-

> page#7.2.10.11>>).
> >   * Your bridgehead needs a period (SEMoS 7.2.11.3 <https://

> > standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.6/single-page#7.2.11.3 <http://

> standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.6/single-page#7.2.11.3>>). You also
> >     have a typo.
> >   * You'll need to add the `epub:type="z3998:roman"` semantic to the
> >     Roman numeral headers. The stanza numbering uses Roman numerals,
> >     because the numbering doesn't go above 100.
> >   * The file structure looks fine but check with `se clean` and `se
> >     lint` for errors I might have missed.
> >
> >
> > Emma
> > On Thursday, February 5, 2026 at 11:04:54 PM UTC-5

> olneyhymnsinthre00cowpuoft/ <https://archive.org/details/
> olneyhymnsinthre00cowpuoft/>
> >         page/59/mode/1up <https://archive.org/details/ <https://
> archive.org/details/>
> >         olneyhymnsinthre00cowpuoft/page/59/mode/1up>
> >          > https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/
> Book_1/ <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/Book_1/>
> >         Hymn_3 <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/
> Olney_Hymns_(1840)/ <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/>
> >         Book_1/Hymn_3>
> >          > https://ccel.org/ccel/newton/olneyhymns/ <https://
> ccel.org/ccel/newton/olneyhymns/>
> >         olneyhymns.Book1.GEN.h1_3.html <https://ccel.org/ccel/
> newton/ <https://ccel.org/ccel/newton/>

> >         olneyhymns/olneyhymns.Book1.GEN.h1_3.html>
> >          >
> >          > Screenshot from 2026-02-05 16-00-58.png
> >          >
> >          > On Thursday, February 5, 2026 at 2:08:42 PM UTC-5 Alex
> Cabal
> >         wrote:
> >          >
> >          > Can you send a page scan of an example?
> >          >
> >          > On 2/4/26 9:34 PM, Cecil New wrote:
> >          > > Quick question... the hymns that were written by William
> >         Cowper are
> >          > > indicated by simple "C." at the end of what will
> become the
> >          > bridgehead.
> >          > > This method of identifying Cowper's poems is
> mentioned in the
> >          > preface
> >          > > here <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/

> Olney_Hymns_(1840)/ <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/>

> >         <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/
> <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/>>
> >          > <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/
> <https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/> <https://

> > en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/ <http://

> en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olney_Hymns_(1840)/>>>
> >          > >
> >          >
> >
>  Preface#:~:text=Though%20it%20is%20possible%20a%20good%20judge%20of%20composition%20might%20be%20able%20to%20distinguish%20those%20which%20are%20his,%20I%20have%20thought%20it%20proper%20to%20preclude%20misapplication,%20by%20prefixing%20the%20letter%20C.%20to%20each%20of%20them.%20For%20the%20rest%20I%20must%20be%20responsible.>.
> >          > >
> >          > > OK to leave this as it is? Just feels like short
> shrifting...
> >          > >
> >          > > On Tuesday, February 3, 2026 at 12:41:52 AM UTC-5
> Emma Sweeney
> >          > wrote:
> >          > >
> >          > > You just click the blue Download button in the top right
> >         corner,
> >          > > click "Looking for a different format?", select HTML
> under
> >         "File
> >          > > format", and export.
> >          > >
> >          > > Emma
> >          > > On Monday, February 2, 2026 at 10:02:43 PM UTC-5

> > ceci...@gmail.com <mailto:ceci...@gmail.com>

> >          > > wrote:
> >          > >
> >          > > That is way cool. Consider putting some wikisource
> tips in the
> >          > > step guide. My last project was also wikisource and this
> >         tidbit
> >          > > would have made things a bit smoother
> >          > >
> >          > > Cecil
> >          > >
> >          > >
> >          > >
> >          > >
> >          > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2026, 7:32 PM Emma Sweeney

> <sween...@gmail.com <mailto:sween...@gmail.com>>

> >          > > wrote:
> >          > >
> >          > > Wikisource allows you to download the whole
> transcription
> >          > > into one file. Here is a copy of the HTML version.
> >          > >
> >          > > Replacing the Wiki transcription file with your 3
> book files
> >          > > is same as replacing the body.xhtml file with
> chapter files
> >          > > in Step 7, except you have to do more formatting
> work. If
> >          > > there is an outage at Wikisource or you accidentally
> delete
> >          > > a whole section while formatting, you can refer back
> to your
> >          > > initial commit.
> >          > >
> >          > > Emma
> >          > > On Monday, February 2, 2026 at 4:27:09 PM UTC-5

> >          > > ceci...@gmail.com <mailto:ceci...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >          > >
> >          > > Just want to be sure... the Wikisource transcription has
> >          > > 169 files, here are the first ten:
> >          > > $ ls | head -10
> >          > > c100_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_97.xhtml
> >          > > c101_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_98.xhtml
> >          > > c102_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_99.xhtml
> >          > > c103_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_100.xhtml
> >          > > c104_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_101.xhtml
> >          > > c105_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_102.xhtml
> >          > > c106_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_103.xhtml
> >          > > c107_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_104.xhtml
> >          > > c108_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_105.xhtml
> >          > > c109_Olney_Hymns__1840__Book_1_Hymn_106.xhtml
> >          > >
> >          > > When I'm done there will only be three: book-
> [1,2,3].xhtml.
> >          > >
> >          > > An initial commit of the Wikisource files are just going
> >          > > to be deleted in the next and replaced by my three.
> >          > >
> >          > > My intended process is following
> >          > > https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-

> to- <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to->

> >         <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to-
> <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to->> <https://
> >          > standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to- <http://

> standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to-> <http://

> > standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to- <http://
> standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to->>>
> >          > > structure-and-style-large-poetic-
> >          > > productions#:~:text=%3C/
> >          > > html%3E-,MANUAL%20TRANSCRIPTION,-In%20some%20cases
> >          > > <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-

> to- <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to->

> >         <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to-
> <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to->> <https://
> >          > standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to- <http://

> standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to-> <http://

> > standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to- <http://
> standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/how-to->>>
> >          > > structure-and-style-large-poetic-
> >          > > productions#:~:text=%3C/
> >          > > html%3E-,MANUAL%20TRANSCRIPTION,-In%20some%20cases>
> >          > >
> >          > >
> >          > > On Monday, February 2, 2026 at 3:07:07 PM UTC-5 Emma
> >          > > Sweeney wrote:
> >          > >
> >          > > The initial commit should have the Wikisource
> >          > > transcription formatting, and the second commit will
> >          > > have the correct poem formatting. You can label the
> >          > > second commit something like "Add poem formatting".
> >          > >
> >          > > Emma
> >          > > On Monday, February 2, 2026 at 12:51:58 PM UTC-5

> standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> >          > > To view this discussion visit https://

> groups.google.com/d/ <https://groups.google.com/d/>
> >         <https://groups.google.com/d/ <https://groups.google.com/d/>>
> >          > <https://groups.google.com/d/ <https://
> groups.google.com/d/> <https://groups.google.com/d/ <https://

> groups.google.com/d/>>>
> >          > > msgid/standardebooks/719bac30-
> >          > > cb92-4346-9a11-29f367ebfadan%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>
> >         <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>>
> >          > <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>
> <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>>>
> >         <https://
> >          > > groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/719bac30-

> <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/719bac30-> <http://

> > groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/719bac30- <http://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/719bac30->> <http://
> >          > groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/719bac30-

> <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/719bac30-> <http://

> > groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/719bac30- <http://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/719bac30->>>
> >          > > cb92-4346-9a11-29f367ebfadan%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>
> >         <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>>

> >          > <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>

> <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>>>?
> >          > > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >          > >
> >          > > --
> >          > > You received this message because you are subscribed
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> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>.
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> groups.google.com/d/ <https://groups.google.com/d/>
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> groups.google.com/d/msgid/> <https://

> > groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/>>>
> >          > > standardebooks/fb0631bd-f5d9-44f1-
> >          > bc2f-4b569b6b1f8an%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>
> >         <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>>
> <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>

> >         <http://40googlegroups.com <http://40googlegroups.com>>>
> >          > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/

> fb0631bd- <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/fb0631bd->
> >         <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/
> fb0631bd- <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/fb0631bd->>
> >          > f5d9-44f1- <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> standardebooks/ <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/>

> >         <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/>>
> >          > fb0631bd-f5d9-44f1->
> >          > > bc2f-4b569b6b1f8an%40googlegroups.com
> <http://40googlegroups.com>

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[Cecil New]

I think I am closing in on the final version for book-1. But I will be traveling today and will be out of town for a few days. So this forced me to create a side-repo for my work so I don't clutter up the real repo. I will be reviewing everything you've already mentioned to make sure I've got it all. But if you want to take a look, the work is at:

https://github.com/mandolyte/standardebooks-tools/blob/main/olney-hymns/text/book-1.txt 

I will be able now to continue working later this week. My plan is to finish all three books and then move the xhtml files to the real repo and pick up at Step 8 (clean and second commit).

[Cecil New]

Started on Endnotes today and wondered whether the link on the end of a line of verse should be inside the span element or outside it? Here is how Wikisource shows it:

[Emma Sweeney]

Endnote links should be inside the <span> elements.

Emma

[Cecil New]

Nearly all the references use abbreviations, such as: "Gen." for Genesis. Should I use the abbrev tag to enclose these or should I spell them out?

[Emma Sweeney]

You can expand the bible citations.

Emma

[Cecil New]

Before I get to the ToC build...

1. Book II is divided into sections which are further divided into more sections. In the snippet below, the section is "Seasons" and the "sub-section" is "New-Year's Hymns".

Book III also has sections, eight of them (actually nine... but I'll ask about that one later). But no "sub-sections".

2. Each book also has a sub-title. Above is "On Occasional Subjects". I see that half title pages use a combination of epub:type fulltitle and subtitle to handle something like this. Also I see that section headers can have a epub:type subtitle. How should I handle this? Or point me to an example I can follow?

My github repo at https://github.com/mandolyte/john-newton_william-cowper_olney-hymns has up thru adding of manifest and spine, if you wish to see what's there now.

It does have a lot of lint errors at this point (many of them about the period in the header, which came from the wikisource - I have yet to remove them).

[Emma Sweeney]

1. The general file structure for Book 2 should be:

<body epub:type="bodymatter z3998:fiction">
<section id="book-2" epub:type="part">
<section id="division-2-1" epub:type="division">
<section id="section-2-1-1" epub:type="z3998:section">
<section id="hymn-2-1-1-1" epub:type="z3998:hymn">

...

</section>

...

</section>

...

</section>

...

</section>

</body>

Book 3 won't use the z3998:section section level.

2. SEMoS 7.2.10.6.

Emma

[Cecil New]

Quick question... since the hymns are numbered consecutively across all the divisions/sections, would be OK to leave the hymn and stanza ids as I have them?

For example, Hymn 80 has this
```

<section id="hymn-2-80." epub:type="z3998:hymn">
<header>
<hgroup>
<h3 epub:type="ordinal">80</h3>
<p epub:type="title">The Old and New Creation.</p>
</hgroup>
<p epub:type="contributors">By Newton</p>
</header>
<section id="stanza-2-80-1">

<header>
<p>I</p>
</header>
<p>

                                                            ...

```

Otherwise I have to update each one, which will take a long time... Had to ask, since it would save a lot of time... but no problem it must be done!

[Emma Sweeney]

You can leave the ids as-is.

Emma