Plato's Dialogues

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Jacob Heybey

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Jan 6, 2021, 2:49:26 PM1/6/21
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Hi all,

Plato's dialogues have been on the wanted list for a while, and I'd like to try and tackle them.

Based on a quick search through the mailing list, we want all of the Dialogues in one production and we want to use Jowett's translation. A few questions before I start:

1. Composition - how many and which of Plato's works do we want? The traditional list of Plato's works has 35 dialogues and 1 set of letters, but modern scholars suggest only a subset of those were actually written by Plato. I can do more investigation about which subset we want, unless we decide we just want all 35 (36 if we include letters). For example, sacred-texts.com lists 25 Jowett translations, which represent the works that modern scholars agree were written by Plato. But wikisource lists additional Jowett translations of "spurious" works - included in the full set of 36, but modern scholars *don't* think were Plato's work.

2. Organization - Thrasyllus of Mendes organized Plato's works into 9 tetralogies, including the letters in his set. Modern scholars organize Plato's works into "Early", "Middle", and "Late" periods; not because we can agree on chronology, but because each group represents a set of themes. Do we care about organization within collections?

--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Jan 7, 2021, 1:00:09 PM1/7/21
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On 1/6/21 1:49 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> 1. Composition - how many and which of Plato's works do we want?

Are the letters considered "dialogs" or are they a separate work? For
example Seneca's dialogs include letters because his letters are
typically considered part of the unit. In this compilation we'd only
include dialogs.

Re. authorship disputes, this is something probably best left to the
actual scholars. I'd say simply do the entirety of Jowett. For dialogs
considered possibly spurious today, we can include an endnote on the
dialog title saying so, with a `<cite>--SE editor</cite>` to distinguish
it from Jowett's notes.

> 2. Organization - Thrasyllus of Mendes organized Plato's works into 9
> tetralogies, including the letters in his set. Modern scholars organize
> Plato's works into "Early", "Middle", and "Late" periods; not because we
> can agree on chronology, but because each group represents a set of
> themes. Do we care about organization within collections?

Again, we can do whatever Jowett did. I don't think there's a right
answer here.

Alex Cabal

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Jan 7, 2021, 1:00:23 PM1/7/21
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Send me a link to your repo once you get started. Thanks!

On 1/6/21 1:49 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Plato's dialogues have been on the wanted list for a while, and I'd like
> to try and tackle them.
>
> Based on a quick search through the mailing list, we want all of the
> Dialogues in one production and we want to use Jowett's translation. A
> few questions before I start:
>
> 1. Composition - how many and which of Plato's works do we want? The
> traditional list of Plato's works has 35 dialogues and 1 set of letters,
> but modern scholars suggest only a subset of those were actually written
> by Plato. I can do more investigation about which subset we want, unless
> we decide we just want all 35 (36 if we include letters). For example,
> sacred-texts.com <http://sacred-texts.com> lists 25 Jowett translations,
> which represent the works that modern scholars agree were written by
> Plato. But wikisource lists additional Jowett translations of "spurious"
> works - included in the full set of 36, but modern scholars *don't*
> think were Plato's work.
>
> 2. Organization - Thrasyllus of Mendes organized Plato's works into 9
> tetralogies, including the letters in his set. Modern scholars organize
> Plato's works into "Early", "Middle", and "Late" periods; not because we
> can agree on chronology, but because each group represents a set of
> themes. Do we care about organization within collections?
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
> --
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Jacob Heybey

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Jan 11, 2021, 10:16:26 AM1/11/21
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--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Jacob Heybey

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Jan 12, 2021, 8:49:27 PM1/12/21
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As it seems like I always do, I have questions about endnotes. Jowett does not write standard footnotes - he writes all his notes in the margins, as you can see in the screenshot. Is this layout worth attempting to replicate in an ebook or should I stick with converting them all to endnotes?
image.png

--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Jan 13, 2021, 12:50:54 PM1/13/21
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Are you sure those are footnotes, and not section summaries? Having
summary snippets in the margins is common for philosophical works like
these. We remove them.

On 1/12/21 7:49 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> As it seems like I always do, I have questions about endnotes. Jowett
> does not write standard footnotes - he writes all his notes in the
> margins, as you can see in the screenshot. Is this layout worth
> attempting to replicate in an ebook or should I stick with converting
> them all to endnotes?
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFvtWQ_ncS1bxRBr3-LL%3DyqjTOJh6bcrE47EnpTQ6M%3DGg%40mail.gmail.com
>
> >
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFvtWQ_ncS1bxRBr3-LL%3DyqjTOJh6bcrE47EnpTQ6M%3DGg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>
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>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
> --
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Jacob Heybey

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Jan 13, 2021, 3:11:38 PM1/13/21
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Oh, you're right. I thought some of them were footnotes - it turns out all of them are section summaries. I'll remove them like you said.

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--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Jacob Heybey

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Jan 15, 2021, 9:07:54 PM1/15/21
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Per the manual, the names of works that are stand alone are italicized, while shorter compositions are quoted. Where do Plato's dialogues fit?

Since most of the time the dialogues are published as a collection (like we're doing), I've been quoting them. But the Republic and the Laws are often published by themselves, and if you work at it, you _can_ buy each dialogue as a stand-alone book. I did a quick search through other philosophy books in the corpus: in Nicomachean Ethics, Plato's Republic is italicized when referenced in the footnotes, but in The Enchiridion, Plato's Crito and Apology are neither quoted or italicized.
--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Matt Chan

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Jan 15, 2021, 9:11:51 PM1/15/21
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Hopping in as I do have a similar question as Jacob; in Legge's works he often references his own published work's subsection, like "See Analects Introduction" or something. Should "Analects" be italicized while "Introduction" be quoted? And if only the latter is cited, should it still be quoted? Would a <span epub:type="se.name.publication.book"> tag be needed in this latter case?

Thanks!

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Alex Cabal

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Jan 16, 2021, 1:11:49 PM1/16/21
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It's not always clear cut. Works that can stand alone get italics. Short
works that are usually anthologized get quotes. If it's unclear, you can
look at the word count. At SE our rule of thumb is that < 40,000 words
is too short for italics. Anything longer enters novel length could be
standalone.

From a quick glance I would say most of his dialogs are fairly short
and would get quotes. For example Critias is just ~6700 words. Republic
appears to be an exception as it's long and has fairly meaty chapters.

In fact now that you mention it, I assume you're including Republic in
this compilation. Are any of the other dialogs around the same length as
Republic or longer? If not maybe it would make sense to do Republic as a
separate production even though it's *technically* also a dialog?

On 1/15/21 8:07 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> Per the manual, the names of works that are stand alone are italicized,
> while shorter compositions are quoted. Where do Plato's dialogues fit?
>
> Since most of the time the dialogues are published as a collection (like
> we're doing), I've been quoting them. But the Republic and the Laws are
> often published by themselves, and if you work at it, you _can_ buy each
> dialogue as a stand-alone book. I did a quick search through other
> philosophy books in the corpus: in /Nicomachean Ethics/, Plato's
> /Republic/ is italicized when referenced in the footnotes, but in /The
> Enchiridion/, Plato's Crito and Apology are neither quoted or italicized.
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 3:11 PM Jacob Heybey <heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Oh, you're right. I thought some of them were footnotes - it turns
> out all of them are section summaries. I'll remove them like you said.
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:50 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> Are you sure those are footnotes, and not section summaries? Having
> summary snippets in the margins is common for philosophical
> works like
> these. We remove them.
>
> On 1/12/21 7:49 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> > As it seems like I always do, I have questions about
> endnotes. Jowett
> > does not write standard footnotes - he writes all his notes
> in the
> > margins, as you can see in the screenshot. Is this layout worth
> > attempting to replicate in an ebook or should I stick with
> converting
> > them all to endnotes?
> > image.png
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 10:16 AM Jacob Heybey
> <heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >     Belated repo link:
> >
> https://github.com/irontigran/plato_the-dialogues-of-plato_benjamin_jowett
> >
> >     On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:00 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> >         <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >          >
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >         <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
> >          > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >          >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFvtWQ_ncS1bxRBr3-LL%3DyqjTOJh6bcrE47EnpTQ6M%3DGg%40mail.gmail.com
> >
> >          >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFvtWQ_ncS1bxRBr3-LL%3DyqjTOJh6bcrE47EnpTQ6M%3DGg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >     --
> >     Sincerely,
> >
> >     Jacob Heybey
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jacob Heybey
> >
> > --
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> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
> --
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Alex Cabal

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Jan 16, 2021, 1:13:39 PM1/16/21
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If it makes sense to publish it as an independent unit then it should
get italics.

On 1/15/21 11:11 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> Hopping in as I do have a similar question as Jacob; in Legge's works he
> often references his own published work's subsection, like "See Analects
> Introduction" or something. Should "Analects" be italicized while
> "Introduction" be quoted? And if only the latter is cited, should it
> still be quoted? Would a <span epub:type="se.name.publication.book"> tag
> be needed in this latter case?
>
> Thanks!
>
> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 6:07 PM Jacob Heybey <heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Per the manual, the names of works that are stand alone are
> italicized, while shorter compositions are quoted. Where do Plato's
> dialogues fit?
>
> Since most of the time the dialogues are published as a collection
> (like we're doing), I've been quoting them. But the Republic and the
> Laws are often published by themselves, and if you work at it, you
> _can_ buy each dialogue as a stand-alone book. I did a quick search
> through other philosophy books in the corpus: in /Nicomachean
> Ethics/, Plato's /Republic/ is italicized when referenced in the
> footnotes, but in /The Enchiridion/, Plato's Crito and Apology are
> > <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>
> wrote:
> >
> >     Belated repo link:
> >
> https://github.com/irontigran/plato_the-dialogues-of-plato_benjamin_jowett
> >
> >     On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:00 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
>  <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >          >
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
> >          > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >          >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFvtWQ_ncS1bxRBr3-LL%3DyqjTOJh6bcrE47EnpTQ6M%3DGg%40mail.gmail.com
> >
> >          >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFvtWQ_ncS1bxRBr3-LL%3DyqjTOJh6bcrE47EnpTQ6M%3DGg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >     --
> >     Sincerely,
> >
> >     Jacob Heybey
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jacob Heybey
> >
> > --
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>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
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Jacob Heybey

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Jan 16, 2021, 2:04:53 PM1/16/21
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Jowett published Plato's works in five volumes; the Republic takes up most but not all of the third volume, and the Laws (which is slightly longer) takes up the last volume. Both of them are commonly published by themselves (and I think those are the two works that come to mind when the modern reader thinks of Plato). Based on that, I'll italicize those two and quote the rest.

As for publishing them separately, the Republic and the Laws are the only two that are long enough to merit that consideration. But I wouldn't want to do that, simply because of the cascading effects - the Republic shares a volume with Timaeus and Critias - what would we do with them if we pulled the Republic out? Also, certain references Jowett makes in his introductions don't make as much sense if the various works are split out. The farthest I would recommend going is publishing each of Jowett's volumes separately (the Laws has its own volume, so it would be published separately in that case).

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--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Jan 16, 2021, 6:55:18 PM1/16/21
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We don't necessarily have to stick to Jowett's volume divisions. What
page scans are you using?
> <http://se.name>.publication.book"> tag
> > be needed in this latter case?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 6:07 PM Jacob Heybey <heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >     Per the manual, the names of works that are stand alone are
> >     italicized, while shorter compositions are quoted. Where do
> Plato's
> >     dialogues fit?
> >
> >     Since most of the time the dialogues are published as a
> collection
> >     (like we're doing), I've been quoting them. But the Republic
> and the
> >     Laws are often published by themselves, and if you work at
> it, you
> >     _can_ buy each dialogue as a stand-alone book. I did a quick
> search
> >     through other philosophy books in the corpus: in /Nicomachean
> >     Ethics/, Plato's /Republic/ is italicized when referenced in the
> >     footnotes, but in /The Enchiridion/, Plato's Crito and
> Apology are
> >     neither quoted or italicized.
> >
> >     On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 3:11 PM Jacob Heybey
> <heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >         Oh, you're right. I thought some of them were footnotes - it
> >         turns out all of them are section summaries. I'll remove them
> >         like you said.
> >
> >         On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:50 PM Alex Cabal
> >         <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
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> >              >
> >              >     Jacob Heybey
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> >         Jacob Heybey
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Jacob Heybey

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Jan 16, 2021, 7:11:14 PM1/16/21
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These are the links I've collected - I'll have to switch some of them out to make sure I'm always working off the third edition (rechecking the links just now revealed that some of them are second edition).


I thought we were going to stick with Jowett's divisions based on what you mentioned earlier - obviously we can change that if you want.

>> 2. Organization - Thrasyllus of Mendes organized Plato's works into 9
>> tetralogies, including the letters in his set. Modern scholars organize
>> Plato's works into "Early", "Middle", and "Late" periods; not because we
>> can agree on chronology, but because each group represents a set of
>> themes. Do we care about organization within collections?

> Again, we can do whatever Jowett did. I don't think there's a right
> answer here.
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Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Jan 16, 2021, 9:55:12 PM1/16/21
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What I meant was that we can keep the ordering Jowett chose, but we
don't necessarily have to keep the volume divisions. More often than not
volumes were a necessity of the physical form of the book versus some
kind of necessary logical grouping. (Though sometimes they *are* logical
groupings, it's just a case by case thing.)

From a quick glance, I think we can probably dispense with the actual
volume divisions, because each work (except the Republic) has an intro
contained within it and I assume those intros are self-contained. Is
that correct?

It looks like only the volume with the Republic has an intro outside of
the works. And it's almost almost 200 pages long! If we don't do volume
divisions, would the intro to the Republic make sense on its own,
possibly with some light editing? (E.g. if non-Republic stuff is grouped
together could we remove it and still have the intro make sense for the
Republic?)

I want to explore the idea of producing the Republic separately. Yes
it's technically a dialog, but it's both book-length and probably his
best-known work. If someone searches for The Republic in our search form
and only the Dialogs come up, the less sophisticated reader might assume
we don't have it for download.

Thoughts?
> > <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
> >
> >     If it makes sense to publish it as an independent unit then
> it should
> >     get italics.
> >
> >     On 1/15/21 11:11 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> >      > Hopping in as I do have a similar question as Jacob; in
> Legge's
> >     works he
> >      > often references his own published work's subsection, like
> "See
> >     Analects
> >      > Introduction" or something. Should "Analects" be
> italicized while
> >      > "Introduction" be quoted? And if only the latter is cited,
> should it
> >      > still be quoted? Would a <span epub:type="se.name
> <http://se.name>
> >     <http://se.name>.publication.book"> tag
> >      > be needed in this latter case?
> >      >
> >      > Thanks!
> >      >
> >      > On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 6:07 PM Jacob Heybey
> <heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>
> >      >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >         Oh, you're right. I thought some of them were
> footnotes - it
> >      >         turns out all of them are section summaries. I'll
> remove them
> >      >         like you said.
> >      >
> >      >         On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:50 PM Alex Cabal
> >      >         <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>>>
> >     wrote:
> >      >
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>>>
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> >      >              >     --
> >      >              >     Sincerely,
> >      >              >
> >      >              >     Jacob Heybey
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> >      >              >
> >      >              > --
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> >      >              > Jacob Heybey
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> >      >
> >      >         --
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> >      >
> >      >         Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >     --
> >      >     Sincerely,
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> >      >     Jacob Heybey
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Jacob Heybey

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Jan 17, 2021, 9:42:28 AM1/17/21
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From a quick glance, I think we can probably dispense with the actual
volume divisions, because each work (except the Republic) has an intro
contained within it and I assume those intros are self-contained. Is
that correct?
If we don't do volume divisions, would the intro to the Republic make sense on its own,
possibly with some light editing? 

Yes to both questions; with the exception of the preface(s) at the beginning of the first volume. They are not self-contained - they are a generalized discussion of all the dialogues.

As for exploring the idea of producing the Republic separately, (and thereby creating new volume divisions) here are some scattered thoughts - let me know what sticks.

Goals: produce the Republic separately; maintain Jowett's ordering; our new divisions should be 'discoverable' to the unsophisticated reader.

- If we're producing the Republic separately, I think the Laws should be separate as well. This is easy, it's already in its own volume.
- Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, and Phaedo should be grouped under a title like "The Last Days of Socrates". This is a common grouping due to their shared context.
- Timaeus and Critias are produced together, by necessity to maintain Jowett's ordering. (They're in-between the Republic and the Laws) Timaeus gets a long introduction and analysis from Jowett (almost as detailed as his analysis of the Republic), but it's not well-known to modern readers.
- First Alcibiades, Menexenus, Second Alcibiades, and Eryxias don't have a clear consensus on authorship. They can be produced together.
- I have no opinions (yet) on the rest of the dialogues.
- All opinions subject to change as I read more of Jowett's reasoning for his ordering / grouping.
- The generalized prefaces are annoying - we could either cut them or reproduce them at the beginning of every production.

Do all of those points make sense? Some of them? If we take all of those suggestions, we'll end up with 5-10 productions of Plato's dialogues.

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--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Jan 20, 2021, 4:56:12 PM1/20/21
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OK, after marinating on this for a few days, let's just keep the
Republic as part of this collection.

I think what we should do is simply keep Jowett's ordering but dispense
with the top level volume divisions. So all of the dialogs will be in
his sequence in our ebook but without vol 1, 2, etc. divisions. That way
we can include his top level intro, and the intros to each individual
dialog can be children of that dialog.

Currently, the SE webpage makes the titles of short stories and poems
searchable via the web interface. Maybe we should add some kind of "is
omnibus" metadata element to collections like these, to expose their
items to the search form. I'll think about that a little later.
> >      >      >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>>> wrote:
> >      >      >
> >      >      >         Oh, you're right. I thought some of them were
> >     footnotes - it
> >      >      >         turns out all of them are section
> summaries. I'll
> >     remove them
> >      >      >         like you said.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >         On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:50 PM Alex Cabal
> >      >      >         <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
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> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
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> >      >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>>>>
> >      >     wrote:
> >      >      >
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> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252525252B...@googlegroups.com>>>>>>.
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> >      >      >         --
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> >      >      >
> >      >      >         Jacob Heybey
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> >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     --
> >      >      >     Sincerely,
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     Jacob Heybey
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> >      > Jacob Heybey
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> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DEtATZyoiSHbfWRWFqtEF-0KrzGBMvf-LTsm9QiC9op0A%40mail.gmail.com
>
> >
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DEtATZyoiSHbfWRWFqtEF-0KrzGBMvf-LTsm9QiC9op0A%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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>
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> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
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Vince

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Jan 20, 2021, 5:15:43 PM1/20/21
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> On Jan 20, 2021, at 3:56 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>
> Currently, the SE webpage makes the titles of short stories and poems searchable via the web interface.

Wow. I did not know that, and it never would have occurred to me to try. That's fantastic.

Jacob Heybey

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Jan 20, 2021, 6:56:56 PM1/20/21
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Sounds good! I'll continue working on Plato.

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Jacob Heybey

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Jan 24, 2021, 7:56:08 PM1/24/21
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Question about the play-like structure of Plato:

Some of Plato's dialogues are structured as a narrative, others like a play. All of them have a "list of speakers" at the beginning, and most have one sentence describing the scene. I have two options in mind for structuring the dialogues.

First, we copy structures from plays in the corpus - that means a "dramatis personae" section, a paragraph describing the scene, and then either a standard narrative for narrative dialogues or a table for the dramatic dialogues.
<section id="dramatis-personae" epub:type="z3998:dramatis-personae">
    <ol>list of speakers</ol>
</section>
<p>In Athens.</p>
<!-- Dialogue begins here -->

Second, we could not have a "dramatis personae" section, and instead just list the speakers in a normal <p> tag. (I use <b> tags because "speakers" and "scene" are in all-caps in the scans)
<p><b>Speakers:</b> Socrates, etc.</p>
<p><b>Scene:</b> In Athens.</p>
<!-- Dialogue begins here -->

Strong preferences between the two structures? Third option I'm not thinking of?
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Emma Sweeney

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Jan 24, 2021, 8:13:26 PM1/24/21
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Can you send a link to a page scan example?

Emma

Jacob Heybey

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Jan 24, 2021, 8:35:41 PM1/24/21
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This is the start of "Charmides", one of the narrative dialogues:

This is the start of "Euthyphro", one of the dramatic dialogues:



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Emma Sweeney

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Jan 24, 2021, 9:13:37 PM1/24/21
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Thanks for the links!

These definitely look like dramatis personaes and would structure them that way. And because there is only one scene, you could put the scene description in the dramatis personae section and the CSS would add space between the names and the scene.

That’s my take, anyway. Alex has the final say.

Jacob Heybey

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Jan 31, 2021, 4:40:57 PM1/31/21
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I'm currently struggling on how to handle sectioning Plato and I'd welcome guidance:

My original thought was to have each dialogue in a separate file, with each of them classed as articles (longer dialogues with natural divisions would be split up). As an example, Charmides would look like
<body epub:type="z3998:fiction">
     <article id="charmides">
         <section id="charmides-introduction">Translator's Introduction</section>
         <section id="charmides-dramatis-personae">Persons of the Dialogue</section>
         <section id="charmides-text">Actual dialogue</section>
    </article>
</body>

This scheme makes sense to me, but I'm a little nervous about it:
  1. How long is too long before I split up the sections into their own files? (Charmides is clearly short enough to be its own file, but Timaeus has a very long introduction).
    1. As a follow up, what should those split up files be named? I'm envisioning timaeus.xhtml for the stubs, timaeus-introduction.xhtml, and maybe timaeus-text.xhtml for the dialogue itself?
  2. How do I handle the translator's introduction being non-fiction and the dialogues being fiction? Is that a hint that they should be split into separate files no matter how short they are?


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Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Jan 31, 2021, 4:55:38 PM1/31/21
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That looks fine to me. There's no rule as to when to break up a bigger
file. If there are logical sections to the file and it is very long,
then you could break it up.

Re. fiction vs non-fiction, just move the semantic off of <body> and
onto whatever high level element is appropriate.

On 1/31/21 3:40 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> I'm currently struggling on how to handle sectioning Plato and I'd
> welcome guidance:
>
> My original thought was to have each dialogue in a separate file, with
> each of them classed as articles (longer dialogues with natural
> divisions would be split up). As an example, Charmides would look like
> <body epub:type="z3998:fiction">
>      <article id="charmides">
>          <section id="charmides-introduction">Translator's
> Introduction</section>
>          <section id="charmides-dramatis-personae">Persons of the
> Dialogue</section>
>          <section id="charmides-text">Actual dialogue</section>
>     </article>
> </body>
>
> This scheme makes sense to me, but I'm a little nervous about it:
>
> 1. How long is too long before I split up the sections into their own
> files? (Charmides is clearly short enough to be its own file, but
> Timaeus has a very long introduction).
> 1. As a follow up, what should those split up files be named? I'm
> envisioning timaeus.xhtml for the stubs,
> timaeus-introduction.xhtml, and maybe timaeus-text.xhtml for the
> dialogue itself?
> 2. How do I handle the translator's introduction being non-fiction and
> the dialogues being fiction? Is that a hint that they should be
> split into separate files no matter how short they are?
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 9:13 PM Emma Sweeney <sween...@gmail.com
> <mailto:sween...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the links!
>
> These definitely look like dramatis personaes and would structure
> them that way. And because there is only one scene, you could put
> the scene description in the dramatis personae section and the CSS
> would add space between the names and the scene.
>
> That’s my take, anyway. Alex has the final say.
> On Sunday, January 24, 2021 at 8:35:41 PM UTC-5 heyb...@gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
> --
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Jacob Heybey

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Feb 11, 2021, 9:09:53 PM2/11/21
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In "Protagoras", Plato provides about two dozen lines of a framing device - Socrates is talking to a Companion, and then starts recounting a conversation he had (the dialogue itself). The framing device is then dropped - never to be mentioned again. Applying dramatic formatting, the entire dialogue is a speech from Socrates, like this:

<tr>
    <td epub:type="persona">Companion</td>
    <td>Thank you, too, for telling us.</td>
</tr>
<tr>
    <td epub:type="persona">Socrates</td>
    </td>
        <p>That is thank you twice over. Listen then:-</p>
        entire dialogue goes here
    </td>
</tr>

This seems wasteful in regards to space (and a little confusing for the reader), but I'm struggling to think of a way to gracefully transition from the dramatic format to narrative format without breaking SE style rules. Thoughts?


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Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Feb 12, 2021, 12:56:15 PM2/12/21
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Can you send a link to the page scan?

On 2/11/21 8:09 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> In "Protagoras", Plato provides about two dozen lines of a framing
> device - Socrates is talking to a Companion, and then starts recounting
> a conversation he had (the dialogue itself). The framing device is then
> dropped - never to be mentioned again. Applying dramatic formatting, the
> entire dialogue is a speech from Socrates, like this:
>
> <tr>
>     <td epub:type="persona">Companion</td>
>     <td>Thank you, too, for telling us.</td>
> </tr>
> <tr>
>     <td epub:type="persona">Socrates</td>
>     </td>
>         <p>That is thank you twice over. Listen then:-</p>
> _*entire dialogue goes here*_
> > <mailto:sween...@gmail.com <mailto:sween...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >     Thanks for the links!
> >
> >     These definitely look like dramatis personaes and would structure
> >     them that way. And because there is only one scene, you could put
> >     the scene description in the dramatis personae section and
> the CSS
> >     would add space between the names and the scene.
> >
> >     That’s my take, anyway. Alex has the final say.
> >     On Sunday, January 24, 2021 at 8:35:41 PM UTC-5
> heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >         This is the start of "Charmides", one of the narrative
> dialogues:
> > https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/8/mode/2up
> >
> >         This is the start of "Euthyphro", one of the dramatic
> dialogues:
> > https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0002/page/74/mode/2up
> >
> >
> >
> >         On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 8:13 PM Emma Sweeney
> >         <sween...@gmail.com <mailto:sween...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >             Can you send a link to a page scan example?
> >
> >             Emma
> >             On Sunday, January 24, 2021 at 7:56:08 PM UTC-5
> >                 <heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >                     Sounds good! I'll continue working on Plato.
> >
> >                     On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 5:15 PM Vince
> >                     <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>> wrote:
> >
> >                          > On Jan 20, 2021, at 3:56 PM, Alex Cabal
> >                         <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
> >                          >
> >                          > Currently, the SE webpage makes the
> titles of
> >                         short stories and poems searchable via
> the web
> >                         interface.
> >
> >                         Wow. I did not know that, and it never would
> >                         have occurred to me to try. That's fantastic.
> >
> >                         --
> >                         You received this message because you are
> >                         subscribed to the Google Groups "Standard
> >                         Ebooks" group.
> >                         To unsubscribe from this group and stop
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> > standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
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> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/85C907C6-0869-4E0E-AE41-6EB6A4E651E6%40letterboxes.org.
> >
> >
> >
> >                     --
> >                     Sincerely,
> >
> >                     Jacob Heybey
> >
> >
> >
> >                 --
> >                 Sincerely,
> >
> >                 Jacob Heybey
> >
> >             --
> >             You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
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> standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> >
> >             To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >
> >
> >
> >         --
> >         Sincerely,
> >
> >         Jacob Heybey
> >
> >     --
> >     You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
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> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.
> >     To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jacob Heybey
> >
> > --
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> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com
>
> >
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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> --
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>
> Jacob Heybey
>
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Jacob Heybey

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Feb 12, 2021, 1:13:25 PM2/12/21
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Left page is the start of Socrates' narrative.

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Alex Cabal

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Feb 12, 2021, 2:10:04 PM2/12/21
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Yeah I would not call that play dialog. It's just a short intro. You can
use <i> to italicize the speakers. But since it's so short, we're
removing the sidenotes, and we have space, expand the speakers to
`Socrates` and `Companion` for clarity
> > <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >                     Sounds good! I'll continue working on
> Plato.
> >      >
> >      >                     On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 5:15 PM Vince
> >      >                     <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >                          > On Jan 20, 2021, at 3:56 PM,
> Alex Cabal
> >      >                         <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
> >      >                          >
> >      >                          > Currently, the SE webpage makes the
> >     titles of
> >      >                         short stories and poems searchable via
> >     the web
> >      >                         interface.
> >      >
> >      >                         Wow. I did not know that, and it
> never would
> >      >                         have occurred to me to try. That's
> fantastic.
> >      >
> >      >                         --
> >      >                         You received this message because
> you are
> >      >                         subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Standard
> >      >                         Ebooks" group.
> >      >                         To unsubscribe from this group and
> stop
> >      >                         receiving emails from it, send an
> email to
> >      > standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>.
> >      >                         To view this discussion on the web
> visit
> >      >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/85C907C6-0869-4E0E-AE41-6EB6A4E651E6%40letterboxes.org.
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >                     --
> >      >                     Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      >                     Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >                 --
> >      >                 Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      >                 Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      >             --
> >      >             You received this message because you are
> subscribed
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Jacob Heybey

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Feb 13, 2021, 8:11:50 PM2/13/21
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Well, Euthydemus does the exact same thing as Protagoras. This time though, the framing device is not dropped - the structure goes like this:

- Short dramatic introduction with Socrates and Crito speaking
- Long narrative portion (the actual dialogue)
- Dramatic "intermission" where Crito questions Socrates about the narrative
- Another long narrative portion (completing the dialogue)
- Dramatic conclusion where Crito and Socrates discuss the narrative and then part ways

So unlike Protagoras, the framing device is carried through to the conclusion, but the majority of the text is still Socrates' narrative. Should I handle it the same way as Protagoras?

Page scans here: Euthydemus

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Jacob Heybey

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Feb 13, 2021, 8:51:57 PM2/13/21
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And while I'm asking questions, what's our stance on expanding abbreviations? For example, the speakers in dramatic sections are all abbreviated in the scans, and I'm expanding on them. But there's also examples like this in the endnotes: "Compare Aristot. Soph. Elenchi", which is short for Aristotle, Sophisticus Elenchis (I'm not sure why they cut off only the last two letters of "Aristotle".) Is it worthwhile to expand Aristot. to Aristotle and Soph. to Sophisticus? If so, how far do I take this? Footnotes are notoriously full of hard to parse abbreviations; should we expand cp. to compare, ch. to chapter, and so on?
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Vince Rice

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Feb 13, 2021, 9:14:55 PM2/13/21
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I’ve spent the last four months doing exactly that for Decline and Fall. But it’s optional; you don’t have to. If you do, make sure you commit the changes as Editorial.

On Feb 13, 2021, at 7:52 PM, Jacob Heybey <heyb...@gmail.com> wrote:



Alex Cabal

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Feb 14, 2021, 4:52:54 PM2/14/21
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Personally I prefer to expand all those abbreviations for clarity
especially for some of those more obscure Greek references where it just
isn't obviuos anymore. But as Vince said it's not a requirement. If you
do expand them, it makes sense to expand all of them.
> <https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/188/mode/2up>
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 2:10 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> Yeah I would not call that play dialog. It's just a short intro.
> You can
> use <i> to italicize the speakers. But since it's so short, we're
> removing the sidenotes, and we have space, expand the speakers to
> `Socrates` and `Companion` for clarity
>
> On 2/12/21 12:13 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> > https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/130/mode/2up
> >
> > Left page is the start of Socrates' narrative.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 12:56 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>>
> wrote:
> >      >      >
> >      >      >                     Sounds good! I'll continue
> working on
> >     Plato.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >                     On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at
> 5:15 PM Vince
> >      >      >                     <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>
> >      >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>>> wrote:
> >      >      >
> >      >      >                          > On Jan 20, 2021, at
> 3:56 PM,
> >     Alex Cabal
> >      >      >
>  <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >      >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
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Alex Cabal

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Feb 14, 2021, 4:54:38 PM2/14/21
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Yes. Like Protagoras it doesn't make sense to have that in a play
structure because the meat of it is so long; and even though it's
sandwiched in play-like dialog there's no way to make that a smooth
transition between a table and block element.

On 2/13/21 7:11 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> Well, Euthydemus does the exact same thing as Protagoras. This time
> though, the framing device is not dropped - the structure goes like this:
>
> - Short dramatic introduction with Socrates and Crito speaking
> - Long narrative portion (the actual dialogue)
> - Dramatic "intermission" where Crito questions Socrates about the narrative
> - Another long narrative portion (completing the dialogue)
> - Dramatic conclusion where Crito and Socrates discuss the narrative and
> then part ways
>
> So unlike Protagoras, the framing device is carried through to the
> conclusion, but the majority of the text is still Socrates' narrative.
> Should I handle it the same way as Protagoras?
>
> Page scans here: Euthydemus
> <https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/188/mode/2up>
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 2:10 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> Yeah I would not call that play dialog. It's just a short intro. You
> can
> use <i> to italicize the speakers. But since it's so short, we're
> removing the sidenotes, and we have space, expand the speakers to
> `Socrates` and `Companion` for clarity
>
> On 2/12/21 12:13 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> > https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/130/mode/2up
> >
> > Left page is the start of Socrates' narrative.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 12:56 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >      >      >
> >      >      >                     Sounds good! I'll continue
> working on
> >     Plato.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >                     On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 5:15 PM
> Vince
> >      >      >                     <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>
> >      >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>>> wrote:
> >      >      >
> >      >      >                          > On Jan 20, 2021, at 3:56 PM,
> >     Alex Cabal
> >      >      >                         <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
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> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>>.
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> >      >      > --
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> >      >      >
> >      >      > Jacob Heybey
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Jacob Heybey

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Feb 17, 2021, 8:10:14 PM2/17/21
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One of the endnotes in Euthydemus features a complex quote that seemed clearly incorrect in the scans, but has proven surprisingly hard to fix. This is my current attempt:

<blockquote>
    <p>“Of ambiguous propositions the following are instances:—</p>
    <p>‘I hope that you the enemy may slay.’</p> <!-- each proposition is enclosed in quotes -->
    <!-- list of propositions snipped -->
    <p>‘Is a speaking of the silent possible?’ ‘The silent’ denotes either the speaker or the subject of 
speech.</p>
    <p>There are three kinds of ambiguity of term or proposition. The first is when there is an equal 
linguistic propriety in several interpretations; the second when one is improper but customary; the 
third when the ambiguity arises in the combination of elements that are in themselves 
unambiguous, as in ‘knowing letters.’ ‘Knowing’ and ‘letters’ are perhaps separately unambiguous, 
but in combination may imply either that the letters are known, or that they themselves have 
knowledge. Such are the modes in which propositions and terms may be ambiguous.”</p>
</blockquote>

I can't get lint to accept this - it keeps complaining about an unclosed quote in the first <p> element. Is this appropriate to put in the lint ignore file?
Page scan: https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/240/mode/2up
Link to the quoted material: classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/sophist_refut.1.1.html (not the same translation, but search for the phrase "Examples such as the following depend upon amphiboly")

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Jacob Heybey

Emma Sweeney

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Feb 17, 2021, 8:30:40 PM2/17/21
to Standard Ebooks
In the page scans, this looks like British-style quotations. Just convert it into American-style quotations.

Emma

Jacob Heybey

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Feb 17, 2021, 8:57:26 PM2/17/21
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I did. Or at least I thought I did - I ran britishtoamerican, inspected the results and found what I thought were a lot of hanging quotes. Note how each paragraph starts with a quote in the scans, but never closes them.

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Jacob Heybey

Emma Sweeney

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Feb 17, 2021, 9:05:33 PM2/17/21
to Standard Ebooks
Keep the left double-quotes. It is correct grammar to not have a closing right double-quote until the last <p>.

Emma

Eric Hellman

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Feb 18, 2021, 10:02:28 AM2/18/21
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<q> is a semantic inline element since html 4.01; most browsers render it by surrounding quotes. It'd not mentioned explicitly in the SE style guide. Is it handled specially by the SE EPUB code? Do we know how EPUB ereaders render it?

I ask because it it used in 31 Project Gutenberg texts and there is discussion about whether we need to purge it its reported that Kobo and Nook won't even apply CSS to it.

Eric

Robin Whittleton

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Feb 18, 2021, 10:12:19 AM2/18/21
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We use it in a bunch of SE texts, and there are no problems with Kobo styling at least. But then we don’t target Kobo’s Adobe renderer, only the native one. I can’t comment on Nook.

> On 18 Feb 2021, at 16:02, Eric Hellman <er...@hellman.net> wrote:
>
> <q> is a semantic inline element since html 4.01; most browsers render it by surrounding quotes. It'd not mentioned explicitly in the SE style guide. Is it handled specially by the SE EPUB code? Do we know how EPUB ereaders render it?
>
> I ask because it it used in 31 Project Gutenberg texts and there is discussion about whether we need to purge it its reported that Kobo and Nook won't even apply CSS to it.
>
> Eric
>
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Eric Hellman

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Feb 18, 2021, 10:37:14 AM2/18/21
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Thanks, Robin. Can you point me to one where it's used?
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/2E68F8DE-FEE5-493F-97B6-A406C05DF8ED%40reala.net.

Robin Whittleton

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Feb 18, 2021, 11:29:51 AM2/18/21
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Alex Cabal

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Feb 18, 2021, 11:48:17 AM2/18/21
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You converted the first opening quote to double quotes, but not the
subsequent ones. All of the opening quotes should be double quotes.

On 2/17/21 7:09 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> One of the endnotes in Euthydemus features a complex quote that seemed
> clearly incorrect in the scans, but has proven surprisingly hard to fix.
> This is my current attempt:
>
> <blockquote>
> <p>“Of ambiguous propositions the following are instances:—</p>
> <p>‘I hope that you the enemy may slay.’</p> <!-- each proposition is enclosed in quotes -->
> <!-- list of propositions snipped -->
> <p>‘Is a speaking of the silent possible?’ ‘The silent’ denotes either the speaker or the subject of
> speech.</p>
> <p>There are three kinds of ambiguity of term or proposition. The first is when there is an equal
> linguistic propriety in several interpretations; the second when one is improper but customary; the
> third when the ambiguity arises in the combination of elements that are in themselves
> unambiguous, as in ‘knowing letters.’ ‘Knowing’ and ‘letters’ are perhaps separately unambiguous,
> but in combination may imply either that the letters are known, or that they themselves have
> knowledge. Such are the modes in which propositions and terms may be ambiguous.”</p>
> </blockquote>
>
> I can't get lint to accept this - it keeps complaining about an unclosed
> quote in the first <p> element. Is this appropriate to put in the lint
> ignore file?
>
> Page scan: https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/240/mode/2up
>
> Link to the quoted material:
> classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/sophist_refut.1.1.html
> <http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/sophist_refut.1.1.html> (not the same
> > <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
> >
> >     Yeah I would not call that play dialog. It's just a short
> intro. You
> >     can
> >     use <i> to italicize the speakers. But since it's so short, we're
> >     removing the sidenotes, and we have space, expand the speakers to
> >     `Socrates` and `Companion` for clarity
> >
> >     On 2/12/21 12:13 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> >      > https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/130/mode/2up
> >      >
> >      > Left page is the start of Socrates' narrative.
> >      >
> >      > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 12:56 PM Alex Cabal
> >     <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >      >      >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >      >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
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>  <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
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> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>>>
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> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>>>>.
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> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>>>
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> >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >      > --
> >      >      > Sincerely,
> >      >      >
> >      >      > Jacob Heybey
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> >      >      > an email to
> standardebook...@googlegroups.com
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> >      >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >      >      > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>>.
> >      >      > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com
> >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >      >
> >      >     --
> >      >     You received this message because you are subscribed
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> >      >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>.
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> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      > Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      > Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
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> >      >
> >
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> >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DGL%3D07SJS-EO_uTF3w86KvGCOD%2BTkOq6oF6pLzqWYS_OA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jacob Heybey
> >
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Jacob Heybey

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Feb 18, 2021, 12:32:41 PM2/18/21
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I think my confusion lies in that I was treating the subsequent opening quotes as nested quotation marks. I thought each proposition needed to be quoted, based on the source of the quotation. Will fix as you and Emma described.

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--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Feb 18, 2021, 3:10:28 PM2/18/21
to standar...@googlegroups.com
Our default CSS removes quotes from <q> using ::before and ::after. It
works on Kindle, my (very very old) epaper Nook, and Kobo using both its
default bad renderer (RMSDK) and its good renderer (kepub). We're also
able to target them with regular CSS on all of those platforms.

AFAIK old Nooks also use RMSDK. I don't know about new ones. But, if
targeting <q> works on very old verions of RMSDK, I don't see why it
wouldn't work on new versions. Though of course RMSDK is terrible so who
knows!

Alex Cabal

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Feb 18, 2021, 3:12:16 PM2/18/21
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Actually I'll be using it fairly extensively in my current production,
Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. Joyce uses em dashes for
block-level dialog, and italics for inline or nested dialog, so we use
<q> to mark that up instead of <i> or <em>.

On 2/18/21 9:02 AM, Eric Hellman wrote:

Jacob Heybey

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Mar 15, 2021, 6:43:09 PM3/15/21
to standar...@googlegroups.com
I've made it through the first of five volumes, so I figured it would be a good time to stop and choose a cover. David's The Death of Socrates seems to be a no-brainer for cover, and I have two crops in mind. The first centers on Socrates himself and provides a striking image which is also the focus of David's original work. But if we care to take the slightly counterintuitive route, we can show Plato instead; sacrificing the focus of the painting in order to feature the actual author.
--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey
socrates.svg
plato.svg

Alex Cabal

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Mar 15, 2021, 6:48:42 PM3/15/21
to standar...@googlegroups.com
It would be nice to have an actual picture of Plato. There must be some
fine art ones out there. If you want to go the more symbolist route, I
have PD proof of this one:

"The School of Plato" (1898) Jean Delville
http://i.imgur.com/XYndFzm.jpg
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t8ff7cr0k;view=1up;seq=383


On 3/15/21 5:42 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> I've made it through the first of five volumes, so I figured it would be
> a good time to stop and choose a cover. David's The Death of Socrates
> <https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/436105> seems to be a
> > <http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/sophist_refut.1.1.html
> <http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/sophist_refut.1.1.html>> (not
> the same
> > translation, but search for the phrase "Examples such as the
> following
> > depend upon amphiboly")
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 4:54 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >      > <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >     Yeah I would not call that play dialog. It's just
> a short
> >     intro. You
> >      >     can
> >      >     use <i> to italicize the speakers. But since it's
> so short, we're
> >      >     removing the sidenotes, and we have space, expand
> the speakers to
> >      >     `Socrates` and `Companion` for clarity
> >      >
> >      >     On 2/12/21 12:13 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> >      >      >
> https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/130/mode/2up
> <https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/130/mode/2up>
> >      >      >
> >      >      > Left page is the start of Socrates' narrative.
> >      >      >
> >      >      > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 12:56 PM Alex Cabal
> >      >     <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>>
> >      >      >      >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >      >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>>
> >      >      >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >      >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/85C907C6-0869-4E0E-AE41-6EB6A4E651E6%40letterboxes.org>.
> >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >      >                     --
> >      >      >      >      >                     Sincerely,
> >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >      >                     Jacob Heybey
> >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >      >                 --
>  <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >     <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >      >      >     <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >     <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>>>>.
> >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >      >             To view this
> discussion on the
> >     web visit
> >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com>
> >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
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> >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252525252B...@googlegroups.com>>>>>>.
> >      >      >      >      >     To view this discussion on
> the web visit
> >      >      >      >      >
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> >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
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> >      >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >      >      >
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>
> >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252525252B...@googlegroups.com>>>>>
>  <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>
> >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252525252B...@googlegroups.com>>>>>>.
> >      >      >      >      > To view this discussion on the
> web visit
> >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >
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> >
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> >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >      >      >
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>
> >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252525252B...@googlegroups.com>>>>>.
> >      >      >      >     To view this discussion on the web visit
> >      >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a3c279f2-c010-221c-b750-a78da6f83694%40standardebooks.org
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a3c279f2-c010-221c-b750-a78da6f83694%40standardebooks.org>.
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> >      >      >
> >      >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     --
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Jacob Heybey

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Mar 16, 2021, 11:20:06 AM3/16/21
to standar...@googlegroups.com
Oops, attached the svgs instead of easier to view images.

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Jacob Heybey
socrates-cover.jpg
plato-cover.jpg

Alex Cabal

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Mar 16, 2021, 1:31:00 PM3/16/21
to standar...@googlegroups.com
The ebook title should just be "Dialogues". You can use se create-draft
to create a dummy draft with the correct title and copy the title/cover
SVGs in.

I think a book about Plato should have Plato on the cover, not Socrates.
However I'm not blown away by the crop of Plato in this one because it's
clear something bad is happening but it's off-canvas (Plato looks sad,
the guy behind him is clearly distressed, etc.)

What about the Delville option, or a different painting of Plato? There
must be a few out there.

On 3/15/21 5:58 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> Oops, attached the svgs instead of easier to view images.
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 6:48 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> It would be nice to have an actual picture of Plato. There must be some
> fine art ones out there. If you want to go the more symbolist route, I
> have PD proof of this one:
>
> "The School of Plato" (1898) Jean Delville
> http://i.imgur.com/XYndFzm.jpg <http://i.imgur.com/XYndFzm.jpg>
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t8ff7cr0k;view=1up;seq=383
> <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t8ff7cr0k;view=1up;seq=383>
>
>
> On 3/15/21 5:42 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> > I've made it through the first of five volumes, so I figured it
> would be
> > a good time to stop and choose a cover. David's The Death of
> Socrates
> > <https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/436105
> <https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/436105>> seems to be a
> > no-brainer for cover, and I have two crops in mind. The first
> centers on
> > Socrates himself and provides a striking image which is also the
> focus
> > of David's original work. But if we care to take the slightly
> > counterintuitive route, we can show Plato instead; sacrificing
> the focus
> > of the painting in order to feature the actual author.
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 12:32 PM Jacob Heybey <heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >     I think my confusion lies in that I was treating the subsequent
> >     opening quotes as nested quotation marks. I thought each
> proposition
> >     needed to be quoted, based on the source of the quotation.
> Will fix
> >     as you and Emma described.
> >
> >     On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 11:48 AM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.
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Jacob Heybey

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Mar 16, 2021, 5:14:24 PM3/16/21
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Re: the title - noted, I was copying Jowett's original title. Do I need to change the name of the repository as well?

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about the suitability of Socrates on the cover. Socrates is the main character of most of the dialogues and appears in all of them save the Laws; his death represents the climactic moment in Plato's writings. Be that as it may, I'll do some searching and come back with some portraits of Plato. (I can't say I'm much of a fan of the Delville, but I'll keep it in mind)

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Alex Cabal

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Mar 16, 2021, 5:21:58 PM3/16/21
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OK, if Socrates is in most of them then you can use that. I wasn't aware
of that, haven't done much research on Plato.
> >      > <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >     I think my confusion lies in that I was treating the
> subsequent
> >      >     opening quotes as nested quotation marks. I thought each
> >     proposition
> >      >     needed to be quoted, based on the source of the quotation.
> >     Will fix
> >      >     as you and Emma described.
> >      >
> >      >     On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 11:48 AM Alex Cabal
> >     <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
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> >      >
> >      >     --
> >      >     Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      >     Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > --
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Jacob Heybey

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Mar 25, 2021, 7:44:54 PM3/25/21
to standar...@googlegroups.com
In the introduction to Apology, Jowett has what I call a "narrative" line, for lack of a better word:
image.png
How should I semanticate this?

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Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Mar 26, 2021, 11:06:37 AM3/26/21
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This can just be a regular <p> but targeted for italics and a margin

On 3/25/21 6:44 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> In the introduction to /Apology/, Jowett has what I call a "narrative"
> line, for lack of a better word:
> image.png
> How should I semanticate this?
>
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 5:21 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> OK, if Socrates is in most of them then you can use that. I wasn't
> aware
> of that, haven't done much research on Plato.
>
> On 3/16/21 4:14 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> > Re: the title - noted, I was copying Jowett's original title. Do
> I need
> > to change the name of the repository as well?
> >
> > I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about the suitability of
> > Socrates on the cover. Socrates is the main character of most of the
> > dialogues and appears in all of them save the Laws; his death
> represents
> > the climactic moment in Plato's writings. Be that as it may, I'll do
> > some searching and come back with some portraits of Plato. (I
> can't say
> > I'm much of a fan of the Delville, but I'll keep it in mind)
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 1:31 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> > <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
> >
> >     The ebook title should just be "Dialogues". You can use se
> create-draft
> >     to create a dummy draft with the correct title and copy the
> title/cover
> >     SVGs in.
> >
> >     I think a book about Plato should have Plato on the cover, not
> >     Socrates.
> >     However I'm not blown away by the crop of Plato in this one
> because
> >     it's
> >     clear something bad is happening but it's off-canvas (Plato
> looks sad,
> >     the guy behind him is clearly distressed, etc.)
> >
> >     What about the Delville option, or a different painting of
> Plato? There
> >     must be a few out there.
> >
> >     On 3/15/21 5:58 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> >      > Oops, attached the svgs instead of easier to view images.
> >      >
> >      > On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 6:48 PM Alex Cabal
> >     <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >      >      > <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>>> wrote:
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     I think my confusion lies in that I was
> treating the
> >     subsequent
> >      >      >     opening quotes as nested quotation marks. I
> thought each
> >      >     proposition
> >      >      >     needed to be quoted, based on the source of the
> quotation.
> >      >     Will fix
> >      >      >     as you and Emma described.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 11:48 AM Alex Cabal
> >      >     <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>>
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>>.
>  <mailto:standardebooks%25252525252...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252525252525...@googlegroups.com>
> >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252525252525...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252525252...@googlegroups.com>>>>>>>>
>  <mailto:standardebooks%25252525252...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252525252525...@googlegroups.com>
> >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252525252525...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252525252...@googlegroups.com>>>>>>>>>.
> >      >      >          >      >      >      >      >     To view this
> >     discussion on
> >      >      >         the web visit
> >      >      >          >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >
> >      >      >          >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com>>
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com>>>
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com>>>>
> >      >      >          >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >
> >      >      >          >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>>.
>  <mailto:standardebooks%25252525252...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252525252525...@googlegroups.com>
> >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252525252525...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252525252...@googlegroups.com>>>>>>>>
>  <mailto:standardebooks%25252525252...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252525252525...@googlegroups.com>
> >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252525252525...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252525252...@googlegroups.com>>>>>>>>>.
> >      >      >          >      >      >      >      > To view this
> >     discussion on the
> >      >      >         web visit
> >      >      >          >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >
> >      >      >          >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com>>
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com>>>
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com>>>>
> >      >      >          >      >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >      >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >
> >      >      >          >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>>.
>  <mailto:standardebooks%25252525252...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252525252525...@googlegroups.com>
> >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252525252525...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252525252...@googlegroups.com>>>>>>>>.
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com>>
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com>>>
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com>>>>
> >      >      >          >      >      >
> >      >      >          >      >      >      >
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>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com>>>>
> >      >      >
> >      >      >          >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DE_fPKE53n7%3DR3_TeUYA1BzU33caZg77TcAzZw4Fn3_qw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>>.
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> >      >      >         --
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> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/23d24a2a-a45a-112e-6b0b-eba92d62a71b%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/23d24a2a-a45a-112e-6b0b-eba92d62a71b%40standardebooks.org> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/23d24a2a-a45a-112e-6b0b-eba92d62a71b%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/23d24a2a-a45a-112e-6b0b-eba92d62a71b%40standardebooks.org>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/23d24a2a-a45a-112e-6b0b-eba92d62a71b%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/23d24a2a-a45a-112e-6b0b-eba92d62a71b%40standardebooks.org> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/23d24a2a-a45a-112e-6b0b-eba92d62a71b%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/23d24a2a-a45a-112e-6b0b-eba92d62a71b%40standardebooks.org>>>>.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     --
> >      >      >     Sincerely,
> >      >      >
> >      >      >     Jacob Heybey
> >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >      > --
> >      >      > Sincerely,
> >      >      >
> >      >      > Jacob Heybey
> >      >      >
> >      >      > --
> >      >      > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFb7ewNn7yALBY2Jkq40BinC7hMrwVdru-yP_s_nrHnVg%40mail.gmail.com>
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> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFb7ewNn7yALBY2Jkq40BinC7hMrwVdru-yP_s_nrHnVg%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFb7ewNn7yALBY2Jkq40BinC7hMrwVdru-yP_s_nrHnVg%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFb7ewNn7yALBY2Jkq40BinC7hMrwVdru-yP_s_nrHnVg%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFb7ewNn7yALBY2Jkq40BinC7hMrwVdru-yP_s_nrHnVg%40mail.gmail.com>>>
> >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFb7ewNn7yALBY2Jkq40BinC7hMrwVdru-yP_s_nrHnVg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFb7ewNn7yALBY2Jkq40BinC7hMrwVdru-yP_s_nrHnVg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFb7ewNn7yALBY2Jkq40BinC7hMrwVdru-yP_s_nrHnVg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFb7ewNn7yALBY2Jkq40BinC7hMrwVdru-yP_s_nrHnVg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFb7ewNn7yALBY2Jkq40BinC7hMrwVdru-yP_s_nrHnVg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFb7ewNn7yALBY2Jkq40BinC7hMrwVdru-yP_s_nrHnVg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFb7ewNn7yALBY2Jkq40BinC7hMrwVdru-yP_s_nrHnVg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFb7ewNn7yALBY2Jkq40BinC7hMrwVdru-yP_s_nrHnVg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>.
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> >
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> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/7f414b9d-5e9d-4a39-b805-83bbc46f5a5d%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/7f414b9d-5e9d-4a39-b805-83bbc46f5a5d%40standardebooks.org> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/7f414b9d-5e9d-4a39-b805-83bbc46f5a5d%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/7f414b9d-5e9d-4a39-b805-83bbc46f5a5d%40standardebooks.org>>>.
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      > Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      > Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
> >      > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >      >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DHHMyue75KfB6-Syq0gabLuuwjq1buGBdpE2OZjWHwkbA%40mail.gmail.com
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> >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DHHMyue75KfB6-Syq0gabLuuwjq1buGBdpE2OZjWHwkbA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DHHMyue75KfB6-Syq0gabLuuwjq1buGBdpE2OZjWHwkbA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jacob Heybey
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> >
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>
>
>
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>
> Jacob Heybey
>
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Jacob Heybey

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Apr 12, 2021, 8:04:02 PM4/12/21
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Jowett's method of dealing with the spurious dialogues was to place them in
appendices at the end of volume 2. (Each appendix gets a short
introduction, as well as each dialogue.) Maintaining Jowett's ordering
results while squashing all the volumes together results in appendices in
the middle of the book.

I'm strongly tempted to just relocate both appendices (containing five
dialogues) to the end of our edition. Thoughts on making an exception to
our general rule of maintaining Jowett's ordering? I suppose if we strictly
maintained the order, we'd have to rename the sections to something other
than appendix 1 and appendix 2.

Link to the table of contents for volume 2:
https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0002/page/n9/mode/2up
> email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
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Alex Cabal

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Apr 13, 2021, 1:53:08 PM4/13/21
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That sounds fine. If they're spurious then the dating doesn't matter
that much anyway.

On 4/12/21 7:03 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> Jowett's method of dealing with the spurious dialogues was to place them
> in appendices at the end of volume 2. (Each appendix gets a short
> introduction, as well as each dialogue.) Maintaining Jowett's ordering
> results while squashing all the volumes together results in appendices
> in the middle of the book.
>
> I'm strongly tempted to just relocate both appendices (containing five
> dialogues) to the end of our edition. Thoughts on making an exception to
> our general rule of maintaining Jowett's ordering? I suppose if we
> strictly maintained the order, we'd have to rename the sections to
> something other than appendix 1 and appendix 2.
>
> Link to the table of contents for volume 2:
> https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0002/page/n9/mode/2up
> <https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0002/page/n9/mode/2up>

Jacob Heybey

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May 14, 2021, 9:45:52 PM5/14/21
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Jowett uses colons to mark analogies, where the colon stands for "is to" and the double colon stands for "as".

And so we get four names⁠— two for intellect, and two for opinion⁠— reason or mind, understanding, faith, perception of shadows⁠— which make a proportion⁠— being : becoming :: intellect : opinion⁠— and science : belief :: understanding : perception of shadows.


Should I just stick with the colons (lint complains about spaces around punctuation) or is there a better symbol to use?

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Weijia Cheng

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May 14, 2021, 10:19:56 PM5/14/21
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Not to comment on what you should do here, but isn't that a pretty common form of notation even today? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colon_(punctuation)#Mathematics_and_logic

Jacob Heybey

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May 14, 2021, 10:49:53 PM5/14/21
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Yeah, definitely common - but lint complains about the spacing and I wanted to confirm there wasn't a better way to handle it.

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David Gross

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May 15, 2021, 10:40:45 AM5/15/21
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You might try the Unicode "ratio" colon for such cases: "∶" (Unicode U+2236).

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 6:45:52 PM UTC-7 heyb...@gmail.com wrote:

Alex Cabal

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May 15, 2021, 1:23:57 PM5/15/21
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Yes, I think the ratio unicode character is the right choice here. That
will also avoid the lint complaint.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/f7dbd95a-f275-91ba-177c-7d39fa279bca%40standardebooks.org>.
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
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Jacob Heybey

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Jun 13, 2021, 1:55:18 PM6/13/21
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In the introductions to certain dialogues, Jowett divides the introduction into sections, but the sections don't appear in the table of contents. Should I use the standard section + header markup (making them appear in the ToC), or use something like an <hr/> plus other markup to create the thematic break, but no entry in the ToC?

Page scan showing a section break in the Timaeus introduction: https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0003/page/380/mode/2up

Also - I'm having trouble viewing the latest version of the manual on Firefox 76 - I'm seeing all the code blocks layered on top of each other when I go to this link: https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.6.0/single-page#7.5. Obviously not a major issue (it looks fine in Chrome and I'm obviously slow to update Firefox), but just thought I'd mention it.

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Vince

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Jun 13, 2021, 1:57:58 PM6/13/21
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Those look like subsections to me.

Jacob Heybey

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Jun 13, 2021, 2:05:24 PM6/13/21
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Right, I guess I'm hung up on the "not appearing in the table of contents" part. Am I trying too hard to make the ebook look like the scans?

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Alex Cabal

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Jun 13, 2021, 2:11:40 PM6/13/21
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Don't worry about it. Our ToC will differ from the scans in almost every
case.

On 6/13/21 1:05 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> Right, I guess I'm hung up on the "not appearing in the table of
> contents" part. Am I trying too hard to make the ebook look like the scans?
>
> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 1:57 PM Vince <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>> wrote:
>
> Those look like subsections to me.
>
>
>> On Jun 13, 2021, at 12:55 PM, Jacob Heybey <heyb...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> In the introductions to certain dialogues, Jowett divides the
>> introduction into sections, but the sections don't appear in the
>> table of contents. Should I use the standard section + header
>> markup (making them appear in the ToC), or use something like an
>> <hr/> plus other markup to create the thematic break, but no entry
>> in the ToC?
>>
>> Page scan showing a section break in the Timaeus introduction:
>> https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0003/page/380/mode/2up
>> <https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0003/page/380/mode/2up>
>>
>> Also - I'm having trouble viewing the latest version of the manual
>> on Firefox 76 - I'm seeing all the code blocks layered on top of
>> each other when I go to this link:
>> https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.6.0/single-page#7.5
>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.6.0/single-page#7.5>.
>> Obviously not a major issue (it looks fine in Chrome and I'm
>> obviously slow to update Firefox), but just thought I'd mention it.
>
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>
>
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> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
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David Grigg

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Jun 13, 2021, 7:13:50 PM6/13/21
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It may be worth saying somewhere in the step by step guide that whereas Project Gutenberg often tries to make their books closely mimic the APPEARANCE of the original book as seen in a web browser, our focus is on creating ebooks which are easy to READ and USE in an ereader. (And which look good in their own right). It’s an important difference in approach.

Jacob Heybey

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Sep 4, 2021, 4:10:12 PM9/4/21
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I think I've stumbled across a disagreement between the manual of style and lint:

Section 7.6.6 says that stage directions should be set in italics, and that personas within the stage directions should be set in bold. But when I do that, lint throws up an error saying that "Element has z3998:persona semantic and is also set in italics."

Here's the offending line, both in the scans (https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0004/page/192/mode/2up), and as I have it in code:

<i epub:type="z3998:stage-direction"><b epub:type="z3998:persona">Euclid</b> and <b epub:type="z3998:persona">Terpsion</b> meet in front of <b epub:type="z3998:persona">Euclid’s</b> house in Megara; they enter the house, and the dialogue is read to them by a <b epub:type="z3998:persona">servant</b>.</i>

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B Keith

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Sep 4, 2021, 5:00:08 PM9/4/21
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Hmmmmm. Should work. Here is an example that works from one of my plays:

<i epub:type="z3998:stage-direction">Enter <b epub:type="z3998:persona">Antonio</b> and <b epub:type="z3998:persona">Delio</b>.</i>

Is this within a z3998:drama section?

BTW we don’t usually mark lowercase servants etc as persona unless they have a speaking part.

_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

Vince

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Sep 4, 2021, 5:39:24 PM9/4/21
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What does your CSS look like, and what do the personas look like when viewed, e.g. by opening the file in a browser? Do you have all of the drama CSS from the manual? This part should keep that from happening.

[epub|type~="z3998:stage-direction"] [epub|type~="z3998:persona"],
em [epub|type~="z3998:persona"],
i [epub|type~="z3998:persona"]{
font-style: normal;
}

Jacob Heybey

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Sep 4, 2021, 6:13:34 PM9/4/21
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@Vince - ah, good catch. I had the incorrect CSS. Lint no longer complains after I fixed it.

@Bruce - the servant is kind of speaking. The framing device is that Euclid has his servant read a scroll on which is written the dialogue. So in theory the servant is narrating the dialogue to Euclid and Terpsion. But we never hear the servant's own voice and the framing has no effect on the presentation of the dialogue. (See this page for the stage direction. The framing device is not mentioned afterwards.) So I have them marked as a persona, but I'm not married to that choice.

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Jacob Heybey

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Sep 4, 2021, 7:00:40 PM9/4/21
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More possible issues with lint: it's complaining about "Latin phrase set without italics". The phrases in question include "reductio ad absurdum", "homo mensura", and "a priori". My current understanding is that if they're found in Merriam Webster (which all these phrases are), they should be left unitalicized. Am I missing something?
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B Keith

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Sep 4, 2021, 7:15:23 PM9/4/21
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if its in MW we don’t semanticate it. It is essentially an English word at that point.

And your choice with the servant persona sounds good.

_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

maticstric

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Sep 4, 2021, 7:23:07 PM9/4/21
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They should actually be italicized according to the manual: https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.6.2/single-page#8.9.1.1 This was added in the last manual update so make sure you have to latest version. Apparently added to not avoid any confusion with Latin vs English words like "a", "ad", "in", and "more" though I personally think it's unnecessary.

But I don't see "homo mensura" on there, nor in the lint code so I'm not sure why it's complaining. Can you double check that lint has a problem with that one and let me know? I can take a look later. And technically the manual only says to italicize "ad absurdum", but I looked at other books with the phrase and Alex italicized the whole thing, <i xml:lang="la">reductio ad absurdum</i>.

maticstric

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Sep 4, 2021, 7:24:48 PM9/4/21
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That should be "avoid" not "not avoid"...

B Keith

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Sep 4, 2021, 7:30:58 PM9/4/21
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Thanks for that. Haven't had a chance to look over the changes...

_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

Alex Cabal

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Sep 5, 2021, 3:55:40 PM9/5/21
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`reductio ad absurdam` probably doesn't need italics because the first
word is clearly Latin, so `ad` can't be confused. But lint doesn't
recognize that right now. You can ignore that particular instance. The
rest should get italics per the updated manual rules.

On 9/4/21 6:23 PM, maticstric wrote:
> They should actually be italicized according to the manual:
> https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.6.2/single-page#8.9.1.1 This was
> added in the last manual update so make sure you have to latest version.
> Apparently added to not avoid any confusion with Latin vs English words
> like "a", "ad", "in", and "more" though I personally think it's unnecessary.
>
> But I don't see "homo mensura" on there, nor in the lint code so I'm not
> sure why it's complaining. Can you double check that lint has a problem
> with that one and let me know? I can take a look later. And technically
> the manual only says to italicize "ad absurdum", but I looked at other
> books with the phrase and Alex italicized the whole thing, <i
> xml:lang="la">reductio ad absurdum</i>.
> On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 4:00:40 PM UTC-7 heyb...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> More possible issues with lint: it's complaining about "Latin phrase
> set without italics". The phrases in question include "reductio ad
> absurdum", "homo mensura", and "a priori". My current understanding
> is that if they're found in Merriam Webster (which all these phrases
> are), they should be left unitalicized. Am I missing something?
>
> On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 6:13 PM Jacob Heybey <heyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> @Vince - ah, good catch. I had the incorrect CSS. Lint no longer
> complains after I fixed it.
>
> @Bruce - the servant is /kind of/ speaking. The framing device
> is that Euclid has his servant read a scroll on which is written
> the dialogue. So in theory the servant is narrating the dialogue
> to Euclid and Terpsion. But we never hear the servant's own
> voice and the framing has no effect on the presentation of the
> dialogue. (See this page
> <https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0004/page/195/mode/1up>
> for the stage direction. The framing device is not mentioned
> afterwards.) So I have them marked as a persona, but I'm not
> married to that choice.
>
> On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 5:39 PM Vince <vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> wrote:
>
> What does your CSS look like, and what do the personas look
> like when viewed, e.g. by opening the file in a browser? Do
> you have /all/ of the drama CSS from the manual? This part
> should keep that from happening.
>
> [epub|type~="z3998:stage-direction"]
> [epub|type~="z3998:persona"],
> em [epub|type~="z3998:persona"],
> i [epub|type~="z3998:persona"]{
> font-style: normal;
> }
>
>
>> On Sep 4, 2021, at 3:09 PM, Jacob Heybey
>> <heyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think I've stumbled across a disagreement between the
>> manual of style and lint:
>>
>> Section 7.6.6
>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.6.2/single-page#7.6.6> says
>> that stage directions should be set in italics, and that
>> personas within the stage directions should be set in
>> bold. But when I do that, lint throws up an error saying
>> that "Element has z3998:persona semantic and is also set
>> in italics."
>>
>> Here's the offending line, both in the scans
>> (https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0004/page/192/mode/2up
>> <https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0004/page/192/mode/2up>),
>> and as I have it in code:
>>
>> <i epub:type="z3998:stage-direction"><b
>> epub:type="z3998:persona">Euclid</b> and <b
>> epub:type="z3998:persona">Terpsion</b> meet in front of <b
>> epub:type="z3998:persona">Euclid’s</b> house in Megara;
>> they enter the house, and the dialogue is read to them by
>> a <b epub:type="z3998:persona">servant</b>.</i>
>
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>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
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Jacob Heybey

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Sep 12, 2021, 8:46:24 PM9/12/21
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Jowett occasionally uses "repeating footnotes", where two references (always within a sentence or two of each other) refer to the same footnote. I've counted a half dozen instances of this so far, and my current thought is to just delete one of the references to avoid repeated references to the same endnote. But I wanted to ask before doing so: has anyone seen a similar pattern before, and is there a preferred solution besides deleting one of the references?

Here's a representative example in the scans: https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/566/mode/1up

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Alex Cabal

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Sep 12, 2021, 8:51:36 PM9/12/21
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Never seen that. In the specific case in the scans, I don't know why
there's two notes saying the same sentence is a fragment from whatever.
In that specific case I'd remove of them. But, in other cases where the
notes are farther apart, you can simply duplicate the endnote.
Duplicating it isn't great but the alternative is that the reader
suspects a typo occurred if they see the same number twice in a row.
> heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >     More possible issues with lint: it's complaining about "Latin
> phrase
> >     set without italics". The phrases in question include
> "reductio ad
> >     absurdum", "homo mensura", and "a priori". My current
> understanding
> >     is that if they're found in Merriam Webster (which all these
> phrases
> >     are), they should be left unitalicized. Am I missing something?
> >
> >     On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 6:13 PM Jacob Heybey
> <heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >         @Vince - ah, good catch. I had the incorrect CSS. Lint no
> longer
> >         complains after I fixed it.
> >
> >         @Bruce - the servant is /kind of/ speaking. The framing
> device
> >         is that Euclid has his servant read a scroll on which is
> written
> >         the dialogue. So in theory the servant is narrating the
> dialogue
> >         to Euclid and Terpsion. But we never hear the servant's own
> >         voice and the framing has no effect on the presentation
> of the
> >         dialogue. (See this page
> >
>  <https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0004/page/195/mode/1up
> <https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0004/page/195/mode/1up>>
> >         for the stage direction. The framing device is not mentioned
> >         afterwards.) So I have them marked as a persona, but I'm not
> >         married to that choice.
> >
> >         On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 5:39 PM Vince
> <vr_se...@letterboxes.org <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>
> >         wrote:
> >
> >             What does your CSS look like, and what do the
> personas look
> >             like when viewed, e.g. by opening the file in a
> browser? Do
> >             you have /all/ of the drama CSS from the manual? This
> part
> >             should keep that from happening.
> >
> >             [epub|type~="z3998:stage-direction"]
> >             [epub|type~="z3998:persona"],
> >             em [epub|type~="z3998:persona"],
> >             i [epub|type~="z3998:persona"]{
> >             font-style: normal;
> >             }
> >
> >
> >>             On Sep 4, 2021, at 3:09 PM, Jacob Heybey
> standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> >             To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F3D29F66-4B08-4ABC-9B8F-DDCBF67E7A5A%40letterboxes.org
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F3D29F66-4B08-4ABC-9B8F-DDCBF67E7A5A%40letterboxes.org>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F3D29F66-4B08-4ABC-9B8F-DDCBF67E7A5A%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F3D29F66-4B08-4ABC-9B8F-DDCBF67E7A5A%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
> >
> >
> >
> >         --
> >         Sincerely,
> >
> >         Jacob Heybey
> >
> >
> >
> >     --
> >     Sincerely,
> >
> >     Jacob Heybey
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cad0a694-af97-4a68-a80b-5c422c675894n%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cad0a694-af97-4a68-a80b-5c422c675894n%40googlegroups.com>
>
> >
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cad0a694-af97-4a68-a80b-5c422c675894n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cad0a694-af97-4a68-a80b-5c422c675894n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/425a5d34-8ad3-8942-eb63-8f7ec0996f1d%40standardebooks.org>.
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
> --
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DEPCjWhQapHasWH8xONeb3XAtaERZZVs%3D8WkTDzyYtXuw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

Weijia Cheng

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Sep 12, 2021, 10:04:18 PM9/12/21
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The repeating footnotes thing came up in the Tolstoy short fiction collection: https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/jj5Y9EvaLJU/m/eyIChjVdCQAJ

Alex Cabal

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Sep 12, 2021, 10:05:20 PM9/12/21
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Well, even though I forgot, glad to see my reasoning is still the same!
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F3D29F66-4B08-4ABC-9B8F-DDCBF67E7A5A%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F3D29F66-4B08-4ABC-9B8F-DDCBF67E7A5A%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F3D29F66-4B08-4ABC-9B8F-DDCBF67E7A5A%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F3D29F66-4B08-4ABC-9B8F-DDCBF67E7A5A%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DEPCjWhQapHasWH8xONeb3XAtaERZZVs%3D8WkTDzyYtXuw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DEPCjWhQapHasWH8xONeb3XAtaERZZVs%3D8WkTDzyYtXuw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>
>
> --
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Jacob Heybey

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Sep 15, 2021, 7:37:53 PM9/15/21
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Thoughts on how to handle this construction? https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0004/page/313/mode/1up

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--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Emma Sweeney

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Sep 15, 2021, 8:52:50 PM9/15/21
to Standard Ebooks
I think this would work for your purpose.

sophist.xhtml
                 <p>The latter is our present concern, for the Sophist has no claims to science or knowledge. Now the imitator, who has only opinion, may be either the simple imitator, who thinks that he knows, or the dissembler, who is conscious that he does not know, but disguises his ignorance. And the last may be either a maker of long speeches, or of shorter speeches which compel the person conversing to contradict himself. The maker of longer speeches is the popular orator; the maker of the shorter is the Sophist, whose art may be traced as being the</p>
                    <ul>
                        <li>
                            <p>contradictious</p>
                        </li>
                        <li>
                            <p>dissembling</p>
                        </li>
                        <li>
                            <p>without knowledge</p>
                        </li>
                        <li>
                            <p>human and not divine</p>
                        </li>
                        <li>
                            <p>juggling with words</p>
                        </li>
                        <li>
                            <p>phantastic or unreal</p>
                        </li>
                        <li>
                            <p>art of image-making.</p>
                        </li>
                    </ul>
                <hr/>

local.css
#sophist ul{
    list-style-type: none;
    text-align: center;
}

#sophist li:before{
    content: "|";
}


Emma

Jacob Heybey

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Sep 15, 2021, 10:06:10 PM9/15/21
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Thanks a lot Emma, your solution was way less complicated than my initial attempts. Clearly CSS is not my strong suit.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e023664e-4721-4a87-bded-9231cf526c47n%40googlegroups.com.


--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Jacob Heybey

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Nov 21, 2021, 9:31:40 PM11/21/21
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My proofreading continues, slowly. Some questions:

1. Jowett has a habit of creating lists where each item can be several paragraphs long (Statesman example). Given that the items are so long, I've opted to not use <ol> and just leave them as text. But when the list is "numbered" using letters, lint complains (t-029) "<p> starting with lowercase letter." Is this a justifiable reason to use a lint ignore rule or should I use a different solution?

2. A related problem: many of the endnotes start with something like: "p. 205" or "e.g." (Symposium example, see the footnote) Lint has the same complaint: "<p> starting with lowercase letter." Can I ignore this?

3. Finally I'm baffled by the output of lint for a line in Timaeus (xhtml reproduced below and you can also see the page scan). Lint says (t-043) "Dialog tag missing punctuation", and I can't figure out what in this line is being interpreted as a dialog tag. My suspicion is that it has something to do with the sentence I've bolded, since that's the only part that looks like dialog, but I reproduced the entire paragraph just in case it's something different.

<p>(c) The morality of the “Timaeus” is singular, and it is difficult to adjust the balance between the two elements of it. The difficulty which Plato feels, is that which all of us feel, and which is increased in our own day by the progress of physical science, how the responsibility of man is to be reconciled with his dependence on natural causes. And sometimes, like other men, he is more impressed by one aspect of human life, sometimes by the other. In the <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book">Republic</i> he represents man as freely choosing his own lot in a state prior to birth⁠— a conception which, if taken literally, would still leave him subject to the dominion of necessity in his after life; in the “Statesman” he supposes the human race to be preserved in the world only by a divine interposition; while in the “Timaeus” the supreme God commissions the inferior deities to avert from him all but self-inflicted evils⁠— words which imply that all the evils of men are really self-inflicted. And here, like Plato (54 B;⁠— the insertion of a note in the text of an ancient writer is a literary curiosity worthy of remark), we may take occasion to correct an error. For we too hastily said that Plato in the “Timaeus” regarded all “vices and crimes as involuntary.” But the fact is that he is inconsistent with himself; in one and the same passage (86) vice is attributed to the relaxation of the bodily frame, and yet we are exhorted to avoid it and pursue virtue. It is also admitted that good and evil conduct are to be attributed respectively to good and evil laws and institutions. These cannot be given by individuals to themselves; and therefore human actions, in so far as they are dependent upon them, are regarded by Plato as involuntary rather than voluntary. Like other writers on this subject, he is unable to escape from some degree of self-contradiction. He had learned from Socrates that vice is ignorance, and suddenly the doctrine seems to him to be confirmed by observing how much of the good and bad in human character depends on the bodily constitution. So in modern times the speculative doctrine of necessity has often been supported by physical facts.</p>
--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Vince

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Nov 22, 2021, 12:06:04 AM11/22/21
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1. Alex will have to answer this one.
2. I’ve had these in the past, and Alex's instructions were to capitalize them, i.e. “P. 205”, “E.g. …”, etc.
3. The text printed in the error message is telling you the places where it thinks the problem is. Of the four I see (see picture), the only one that doesn’t make sense is the third one, i.e. “that all the evils of men are really self-inflicted. And here, like Plato (54 B;—the).” The rest I would say qualify for an ignore. That one probably does, too, I just don’t know why it’s triggering on it. (Since they’re in a single file, one ignore will ignore all of them, anyway, but it’s better to know that nothing needs to be fixed on that one.)

Alex Cabal

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Nov 22, 2021, 6:06:12 PM11/22/21
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On 11/21/21 8:31 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> My proofreading continues, slowly. Some questions:
>
> 1. Jowett has a habit of creating lists where each item can be several
> paragraphs long (Statesman example
> <https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0004/page/441/mode/1up>). Given
> that the items are so long, I've opted to not use <ol> and just leave
> them as text. But when the list is "numbered" using letters, lint
> complains (t-029) "<p> starting with lowercase letter." Is this a
> justifiable reason to use a lint ignore rule or should I use a different
> solution?

You can ignore that error, that's probably something to improve the test
with.

Jacob Heybey

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Nov 25, 2021, 7:33:44 AM11/25/21
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A table of contents question:

My generated landmarks section looks like this:

Landmarks

    Titlepage
    Imprint
    Preface to the First Edition
    Preface to the Second and Third Editions
    Note
    Colophon
    Uncopyright
    Endnotes

What's missing is a link to the first dialogue, Charmides. (You can see the current version of Charmides here: https://github.com/irontigran/plato_the-dialogues-of-plato_benjamin_jowett/blob/8fe383a4d93eda714a89c2490b492a0aa7a65e07/src/epub/text/charmides.xhtml)

Having peered at the source for add_landmark (https://github.com/standardebooks/tools/blob/a5facb698449cde387035c5cf14d9b83ac889daf/se/se_epub_generate_toc.py#L162), my best guess as to why this is happening is that my top-level <body> <article> tags in charmides.xhtml don't have any epub:type except "bodymatter". My rationale was that charmides.xhtml contains Jowett's introduction (non-fiction) and the dialog itself (fiction), and therefore those epub:type attributes are placed on the inner <section> tags.

Can anybody shed some light on the correct way to fix this? I've considered just editing the ToC by hand, but that seems to carry the risk of ignoring an error in how I've structured the dialogs.

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Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Emma Sweeney

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Nov 25, 2021, 8:45:18 AM11/25/21
to Standard Ebooks
You're missing a half title page (SEMOS 6.5). Lint should be giving you an error.

Emma

Alex Cabal

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Nov 25, 2021, 12:31:26 PM11/25/21
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Looks OK to me. You can always edit the landmarks manually.

On 11/25/21 6:33 AM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> A table of contents question:
>
> My generated landmarks section looks like this:
>
> Landmarks
>
>     Titlepage
>     Imprint
>     Preface to the First Edition
>     Preface to the Second and Third Editions
>     Note
>     Colophon
>     Uncopyright
>     Endnotes
>
>
> What's missing is a link to the first dialogue, Charmides. (You can see
> the current version of Charmides here:
> https://github.com/irontigran/plato_the-dialogues-of-plato_benjamin_jowett/blob/8fe383a4d93eda714a89c2490b492a0aa7a65e07/src/epub/text/charmides.xhtml
> <https://github.com/irontigran/plato_the-dialogues-of-plato_benjamin_jowett/blob/8fe383a4d93eda714a89c2490b492a0aa7a65e07/src/epub/text/charmides.xhtml>)
>
> Having peered at the source for add_landmark
> (https://github.com/standardebooks/tools/blob/a5facb698449cde387035c5cf14d9b83ac889daf/se/se_epub_generate_toc.py#L162
> <https://github.com/standardebooks/tools/blob/a5facb698449cde387035c5cf14d9b83ac889daf/se/se_epub_generate_toc.py#L162>),
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org>.
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
> --
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

Jacob Heybey

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Nov 26, 2021, 11:46:47 AM11/26/21
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Thanks Emma, Alex; adding the correct halftitle fixed the issue.

Now for an interesting discussion - as is usual for a scholarly translation, the introductions and analyses are littered with references to various parts of the dialogues. All of these references use Stephanus numbering, which has a similar effect to citing a Biblical passage by chapter and verse. I've begun inserting links using our standard scheme (<p id="republic-p-660">...</p> and <a href="republic.xhtml#republic-p-660">Republic I 345 E</a>). This looks like it will work fine, with the minor issue that paragraphs will contain numerous "verses", so trying to link to some of them will only link to the nearest paragraph, with no indication where the specific verse starts within the paragraph.

I've just started adding the cross-references, but wanted to pitch the idea before I got too far since this is going to be a lengthy process.

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--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Nov 27, 2021, 3:30:52 PM11/27/21
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Yes, that's fine. That's a typical problem for all endnotes referring to
spans of text across paragraphs. I had the same issue for Wealth of
Nations. There is no good solution in (X)HTML because you can't have a
`<span>` going across multiple `<p>`s so there is no way to have an ID
pointing to that kind of highlight. The draft epub fragment identifier
spec might be a step in the right direction for this but it's still a
draft and if it is ever implemented would only apply to ebooks and not
the web at large.

On 11/26/21 10:46 AM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> Thanks Emma, Alex; adding the correct halftitle fixed the issue.
>
> Now for an interesting discussion - as is usual for a scholarly
> translation, the introductions and analyses are littered with references
> to various parts of the dialogues. All of these references use Stephanus
> numbering <https://www.plato-dialogues.org/faq/faq007.htm>, which has a
> > <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>.
> >     To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org>>.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jacob Heybey
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
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> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com
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>
> >
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>
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>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
> --
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Jacob Heybey

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Dec 17, 2021, 9:59:28 PM12/17/21
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I believe I've found a word that's a good candidate to add to modernize-spelling: "phrenzy" is an archaic version of "frenzy" that seems to have fallen out of use in the late 19th century. (MW link, Ngrams link)

I'm happy to create a PR to the tool repo, but it might take a while since I'd like to finish Plato before starting any other work.

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--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Dec 17, 2021, 10:03:07 PM12/17/21
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The toolset already checks for that, but spelled `phrensy`. So I'll
update it to also include the z variant. Thanks!

On 12/17/21 8:59 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> I believe I've found a word that's a good candidate to add to
> modernize-spelling: "phrenzy" is an archaic version of "frenzy" that
> seems to have fallen out of use in the late 19th century. (MW link
> <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phrenzy>, Ngrams link
> <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=phrenzy%2Cfrenzy&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cphrenzy%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cfrenzy%3B%2Cc0>)
>  <https://github.com/standardebooks/tools/blob/a5facb698449cde387035c5cf14d9b83ac889daf/se/se_epub_generate_toc.py#L162 <https://github.com/standardebooks/tools/blob/a5facb698449cde387035c5cf14d9b83ac889daf/se/se_epub_generate_toc.py#L162>>>),
> >      >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>.
> >      >     To view this discussion on the web visit
> >      >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org>
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org>>
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4011b7ef-0716-51d3-ffa0-774944a6143a%40standardebooks.org>>>.
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      > Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      > Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      > --
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> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
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> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
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> >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jacob Heybey
> >
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Jacob Heybey

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Jan 9, 2022, 4:01:52 PM1/9/22
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How do we handle a missing word when it's not clear what the missing word is?

Here, at the top of the page, Socrates says "I must be a greater than Daedelus...". It's clear there's a missing noun here, but it's not clear what the missing noun should be. Even more frustrating, the missing word seems to not exist in all editions of Jowett's translation that I could find (I'm working with the 3rd edition, and I checked the first and second). Context suggests "inventor", since Socrates mentions Daedalus' inventions. A translation by Harold Fowler uses "I am a more clever artist than Daedelus", and "works" rather than "inventions" of Daedelus.

Am I free to use my own best judgment in an Editorial commit here (I'd probably go with "inventor")? Should I leave the missing word as is? Or is there another way to resolve this I haven't thought of?

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Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Jan 9, 2022, 4:30:33 PM1/9/22
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Append an endnote saying what you think missing word might be, with
<cite>--S.E. Editor</cite>

On 1/9/22 3:01 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> How do we handle a missing word when it's not clear what the missing
> word is?
>
> Here, at the top of the page
> <https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0002/page/87/mode/1up>, Socrates
> says "I must be a greater than Daedelus...". It's clear there's a
> missing noun here, but it's not clear what the missing noun should be.
> Even more frustrating, the missing word seems to not exist in all
> editions of Jowett's translation that I could find (I'm working with the
> 3rd edition, and I checked the first and second). Context suggests
> "inventor", since Socrates mentions Daedalus' inventions. A translation
> by Harold Fowler
> <http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plat.+Euthyph.+11&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0180>
> uses "I am a more clever artist than Daedelus", and "works" rather than
> "inventions" of Daedelus.
>
> Am I free to use my own best judgment in an Editorial commit here (I'd
> probably go with "inventor")? Should I leave the missing word as is? Or
> is there another way to resolve this I haven't thought of?
>
> On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 10:03 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> The toolset already checks for that, but spelled `phrensy`. So I'll
> update it to also include the z variant. Thanks!
>
> On 12/17/21 8:59 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> > I believe I've found a word that's a good candidate to add to
> > modernize-spelling: "phrenzy" is an archaic version of "frenzy" that
> > seems to have fallen out of use in the late 19th century. (MW link
> > <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phrenzy
> <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phrenzy>>, Ngrams link
> >
> <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=phrenzy%2Cfrenzy&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cphrenzy%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cfrenzy%3B%2Cc0
> <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=phrenzy%2Cfrenzy&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cphrenzy%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cfrenzy%3B%2Cc0>>)
> >
> > I'm happy to create a PR to the tool repo, but it might take a while
> > since I'd like to finish Plato before starting any other work.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 27, 2021 at 3:30 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>>>.
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com
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> >
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> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com>>>
> >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG5aOPXC02JXW_Gs24ScErXrixXR%2Bm_gRrXuCTcqAH3Fg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>.
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> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      > Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      > Jacob Heybey
> >      >
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> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jacob Heybey
> >
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Peter Saint-Andre

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Jan 9, 2022, 5:19:08 PM1/9/22
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Well, the Greek says:

κινδυνεύω ἄρα, ὦ ἑταῖρε, ἐκείνου τοῦ ἀνδρὸς δεινότερος γεγονέναι τὴν
τέχνην τοσούτῳ,...

I'd roughly translate this as: "I'd hazard, my friend, that I've become
a more able man in the art than that one" (i.e., Daedalus).

Thus the sense of Jowett's translation seems acceptable if slightly
poetic, since Socrates is saying he's not just a Daedalus but a
"greater-than-Daedalus".

Peter

--
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/
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