Plato's Dialogues

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Jacob Heybey

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Jan 6, 2021, 2:49:26 PM1/6/21
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Hi all,

Plato's dialogues have been on the wanted list for a while, and I'd like to try and tackle them.

Based on a quick search through the mailing list, we want all of the Dialogues in one production and we want to use Jowett's translation. A few questions before I start:

1. Composition - how many and which of Plato's works do we want? The traditional list of Plato's works has 35 dialogues and 1 set of letters, but modern scholars suggest only a subset of those were actually written by Plato. I can do more investigation about which subset we want, unless we decide we just want all 35 (36 if we include letters). For example, sacred-texts.com lists 25 Jowett translations, which represent the works that modern scholars agree were written by Plato. But wikisource lists additional Jowett translations of "spurious" works - included in the full set of 36, but modern scholars *don't* think were Plato's work.

2. Organization - Thrasyllus of Mendes organized Plato's works into 9 tetralogies, including the letters in his set. Modern scholars organize Plato's works into "Early", "Middle", and "Late" periods; not because we can agree on chronology, but because each group represents a set of themes. Do we care about organization within collections?

--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Jan 7, 2021, 1:00:09 PM1/7/21
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On 1/6/21 1:49 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> 1. Composition - how many and which of Plato's works do we want?

Are the letters considered "dialogs" or are they a separate work? For
example Seneca's dialogs include letters because his letters are
typically considered part of the unit. In this compilation we'd only
include dialogs.

Re. authorship disputes, this is something probably best left to the
actual scholars. I'd say simply do the entirety of Jowett. For dialogs
considered possibly spurious today, we can include an endnote on the
dialog title saying so, with a `<cite>--SE editor</cite>` to distinguish
it from Jowett's notes.

> 2. Organization - Thrasyllus of Mendes organized Plato's works into 9
> tetralogies, including the letters in his set. Modern scholars organize
> Plato's works into "Early", "Middle", and "Late" periods; not because we
> can agree on chronology, but because each group represents a set of
> themes. Do we care about organization within collections?

Again, we can do whatever Jowett did. I don't think there's a right
answer here.

Alex Cabal

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Jan 7, 2021, 1:00:23 PM1/7/21
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Send me a link to your repo once you get started. Thanks!

On 1/6/21 1:49 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Plato's dialogues have been on the wanted list for a while, and I'd like
> to try and tackle them.
>
> Based on a quick search through the mailing list, we want all of the
> Dialogues in one production and we want to use Jowett's translation. A
> few questions before I start:
>
> 1. Composition - how many and which of Plato's works do we want? The
> traditional list of Plato's works has 35 dialogues and 1 set of letters,
> but modern scholars suggest only a subset of those were actually written
> by Plato. I can do more investigation about which subset we want, unless
> we decide we just want all 35 (36 if we include letters). For example,
> sacred-texts.com <http://sacred-texts.com> lists 25 Jowett translations,
> which represent the works that modern scholars agree were written by
> Plato. But wikisource lists additional Jowett translations of "spurious"
> works - included in the full set of 36, but modern scholars *don't*
> think were Plato's work.
>
> 2. Organization - Thrasyllus of Mendes organized Plato's works into 9
> tetralogies, including the letters in his set. Modern scholars organize
> Plato's works into "Early", "Middle", and "Late" periods; not because we
> can agree on chronology, but because each group represents a set of
> themes. Do we care about organization within collections?
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
> --
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Jacob Heybey

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Jan 11, 2021, 10:16:26 AM1/11/21
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--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Jacob Heybey

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Jan 12, 2021, 8:49:27 PM1/12/21
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As it seems like I always do, I have questions about endnotes. Jowett does not write standard footnotes - he writes all his notes in the margins, as you can see in the screenshot. Is this layout worth attempting to replicate in an ebook or should I stick with converting them all to endnotes?
image.png

--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Jan 13, 2021, 12:50:54 PM1/13/21
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Are you sure those are footnotes, and not section summaries? Having
summary snippets in the margins is common for philosophical works like
these. We remove them.

On 1/12/21 7:49 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> As it seems like I always do, I have questions about endnotes. Jowett
> does not write standard footnotes - he writes all his notes in the
> margins, as you can see in the screenshot. Is this layout worth
> attempting to replicate in an ebook or should I stick with converting
> them all to endnotes?
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFvtWQ_ncS1bxRBr3-LL%3DyqjTOJh6bcrE47EnpTQ6M%3DGg%40mail.gmail.com
>
> >
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFvtWQ_ncS1bxRBr3-LL%3DyqjTOJh6bcrE47EnpTQ6M%3DGg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>
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>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
> --
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Jacob Heybey

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Jan 13, 2021, 3:11:38 PM1/13/21
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Oh, you're right. I thought some of them were footnotes - it turns out all of them are section summaries. I'll remove them like you said.

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--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Jacob Heybey

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Jan 15, 2021, 9:07:54 PM1/15/21
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Per the manual, the names of works that are stand alone are italicized, while shorter compositions are quoted. Where do Plato's dialogues fit?

Since most of the time the dialogues are published as a collection (like we're doing), I've been quoting them. But the Republic and the Laws are often published by themselves, and if you work at it, you _can_ buy each dialogue as a stand-alone book. I did a quick search through other philosophy books in the corpus: in Nicomachean Ethics, Plato's Republic is italicized when referenced in the footnotes, but in The Enchiridion, Plato's Crito and Apology are neither quoted or italicized.
--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Matt Chan

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Jan 15, 2021, 9:11:51 PM1/15/21
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Hopping in as I do have a similar question as Jacob; in Legge's works he often references his own published work's subsection, like "See Analects Introduction" or something. Should "Analects" be italicized while "Introduction" be quoted? And if only the latter is cited, should it still be quoted? Would a <span epub:type="se.name.publication.book"> tag be needed in this latter case?

Thanks!

Alex Cabal

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Jan 16, 2021, 1:11:49 PM1/16/21
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It's not always clear cut. Works that can stand alone get italics. Short
works that are usually anthologized get quotes. If it's unclear, you can
look at the word count. At SE our rule of thumb is that < 40,000 words
is too short for italics. Anything longer enters novel length could be
standalone.

From a quick glance I would say most of his dialogs are fairly short
and would get quotes. For example Critias is just ~6700 words. Republic
appears to be an exception as it's long and has fairly meaty chapters.

In fact now that you mention it, I assume you're including Republic in
this compilation. Are any of the other dialogs around the same length as
Republic or longer? If not maybe it would make sense to do Republic as a
separate production even though it's *technically* also a dialog?

On 1/15/21 8:07 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> Per the manual, the names of works that are stand alone are italicized,
> while shorter compositions are quoted. Where do Plato's dialogues fit?
>
> Since most of the time the dialogues are published as a collection (like
> we're doing), I've been quoting them. But the Republic and the Laws are
> often published by themselves, and if you work at it, you _can_ buy each
> dialogue as a stand-alone book. I did a quick search through other
> philosophy books in the corpus: in /Nicomachean Ethics/, Plato's
> /Republic/ is italicized when referenced in the footnotes, but in /The
> Enchiridion/, Plato's Crito and Apology are neither quoted or italicized.
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 3:11 PM Jacob Heybey <heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Oh, you're right. I thought some of them were footnotes - it turns
> out all of them are section summaries. I'll remove them like you said.
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:50 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> Are you sure those are footnotes, and not section summaries? Having
> summary snippets in the margins is common for philosophical
> works like
> these. We remove them.
>
> On 1/12/21 7:49 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> > As it seems like I always do, I have questions about
> endnotes. Jowett
> > does not write standard footnotes - he writes all his notes
> in the
> > margins, as you can see in the screenshot. Is this layout worth
> > attempting to replicate in an ebook or should I stick with
> converting
> > them all to endnotes?
> > image.png
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 10:16 AM Jacob Heybey
> <heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >     Belated repo link:
> >
> https://github.com/irontigran/plato_the-dialogues-of-plato_benjamin_jowett
> >
> >     On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:00 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> >         <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >          >
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >         <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
> >          > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >          >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFvtWQ_ncS1bxRBr3-LL%3DyqjTOJh6bcrE47EnpTQ6M%3DGg%40mail.gmail.com
> >
> >          >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFvtWQ_ncS1bxRBr3-LL%3DyqjTOJh6bcrE47EnpTQ6M%3DGg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >     --
> >     Sincerely,
> >
> >     Jacob Heybey
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jacob Heybey
> >
> > --
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>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
> --
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Alex Cabal

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Jan 16, 2021, 1:13:39 PM1/16/21
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If it makes sense to publish it as an independent unit then it should
get italics.

On 1/15/21 11:11 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> Hopping in as I do have a similar question as Jacob; in Legge's works he
> often references his own published work's subsection, like "See Analects
> Introduction" or something. Should "Analects" be italicized while
> "Introduction" be quoted? And if only the latter is cited, should it
> still be quoted? Would a <span epub:type="se.name.publication.book"> tag
> be needed in this latter case?
>
> Thanks!
>
> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 6:07 PM Jacob Heybey <heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Per the manual, the names of works that are stand alone are
> italicized, while shorter compositions are quoted. Where do Plato's
> dialogues fit?
>
> Since most of the time the dialogues are published as a collection
> (like we're doing), I've been quoting them. But the Republic and the
> Laws are often published by themselves, and if you work at it, you
> _can_ buy each dialogue as a stand-alone book. I did a quick search
> through other philosophy books in the corpus: in /Nicomachean
> Ethics/, Plato's /Republic/ is italicized when referenced in the
> footnotes, but in /The Enchiridion/, Plato's Crito and Apology are
> > <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>
> wrote:
> >
> >     Belated repo link:
> >
> https://github.com/irontigran/plato_the-dialogues-of-plato_benjamin_jowett
> >
> >     On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 1:00 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
> >          > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >          >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFvtWQ_ncS1bxRBr3-LL%3DyqjTOJh6bcrE47EnpTQ6M%3DGg%40mail.gmail.com
> >
> >          >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFvtWQ_ncS1bxRBr3-LL%3DyqjTOJh6bcrE47EnpTQ6M%3DGg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >     --
> >     Sincerely,
> >
> >     Jacob Heybey
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jacob Heybey
> >
> > --
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> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
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Jacob Heybey

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Jan 16, 2021, 2:04:53 PM1/16/21
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Jowett published Plato's works in five volumes; the Republic takes up most but not all of the third volume, and the Laws (which is slightly longer) takes up the last volume. Both of them are commonly published by themselves (and I think those are the two works that come to mind when the modern reader thinks of Plato). Based on that, I'll italicize those two and quote the rest.

As for publishing them separately, the Republic and the Laws are the only two that are long enough to merit that consideration. But I wouldn't want to do that, simply because of the cascading effects - the Republic shares a volume with Timaeus and Critias - what would we do with them if we pulled the Republic out? Also, certain references Jowett makes in his introductions don't make as much sense if the various works are split out. The farthest I would recommend going is publishing each of Jowett's volumes separately (the Laws has its own volume, so it would be published separately in that case).

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--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Jan 16, 2021, 6:55:18 PM1/16/21
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We don't necessarily have to stick to Jowett's volume divisions. What
page scans are you using?
> <http://se.name>.publication.book"> tag
> > be needed in this latter case?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 6:07 PM Jacob Heybey <heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >     Per the manual, the names of works that are stand alone are
> >     italicized, while shorter compositions are quoted. Where do
> Plato's
> >     dialogues fit?
> >
> >     Since most of the time the dialogues are published as a
> collection
> >     (like we're doing), I've been quoting them. But the Republic
> and the
> >     Laws are often published by themselves, and if you work at
> it, you
> >     _can_ buy each dialogue as a stand-alone book. I did a quick
> search
> >     through other philosophy books in the corpus: in /Nicomachean
> >     Ethics/, Plato's /Republic/ is italicized when referenced in the
> >     footnotes, but in /The Enchiridion/, Plato's Crito and
> Apology are
> >     neither quoted or italicized.
> >
> >     On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 3:11 PM Jacob Heybey
> <heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >         Oh, you're right. I thought some of them were footnotes - it
> >         turns out all of them are section summaries. I'll remove them
> >         like you said.
> >
> >         On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:50 PM Alex Cabal
> >         <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
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> >
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> >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
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> >              >     --
> >              >     Sincerely,
> >              >
> >              >     Jacob Heybey
> >              >
> >              >
> >              >
> >              > --
> >              > Sincerely,
> >              >
> >              > Jacob Heybey
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> >         --
> >         Sincerely,
> >
> >         Jacob Heybey
> >
> >
> >
> >     --
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> >
> >     Jacob Heybey
> >
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Jacob Heybey

unread,
Jan 16, 2021, 7:11:14 PM1/16/21
to standar...@googlegroups.com
These are the links I've collected - I'll have to switch some of them out to make sure I'm always working off the third edition (rechecking the links just now revealed that some of them are second edition).


I thought we were going to stick with Jowett's divisions based on what you mentioned earlier - obviously we can change that if you want.

>> 2. Organization - Thrasyllus of Mendes organized Plato's works into 9
>> tetralogies, including the letters in his set. Modern scholars organize
>> Plato's works into "Early", "Middle", and "Late" periods; not because we
>> can agree on chronology, but because each group represents a set of
>> themes. Do we care about organization within collections?

> Again, we can do whatever Jowett did. I don't think there's a right
> answer here.
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--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

unread,
Jan 16, 2021, 9:55:12 PM1/16/21
to standar...@googlegroups.com
What I meant was that we can keep the ordering Jowett chose, but we
don't necessarily have to keep the volume divisions. More often than not
volumes were a necessity of the physical form of the book versus some
kind of necessary logical grouping. (Though sometimes they *are* logical
groupings, it's just a case by case thing.)

From a quick glance, I think we can probably dispense with the actual
volume divisions, because each work (except the Republic) has an intro
contained within it and I assume those intros are self-contained. Is
that correct?

It looks like only the volume with the Republic has an intro outside of
the works. And it's almost almost 200 pages long! If we don't do volume
divisions, would the intro to the Republic make sense on its own,
possibly with some light editing? (E.g. if non-Republic stuff is grouped
together could we remove it and still have the intro make sense for the
Republic?)

I want to explore the idea of producing the Republic separately. Yes
it's technically a dialog, but it's both book-length and probably his
best-known work. If someone searches for The Republic in our search form
and only the Dialogs come up, the less sophisticated reader might assume
we don't have it for download.

Thoughts?
> > <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
> >
> >     If it makes sense to publish it as an independent unit then
> it should
> >     get italics.
> >
> >     On 1/15/21 11:11 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> >      > Hopping in as I do have a similar question as Jacob; in
> Legge's
> >     works he
> >      > often references his own published work's subsection, like
> "See
> >     Analects
> >      > Introduction" or something. Should "Analects" be
> italicized while
> >      > "Introduction" be quoted? And if only the latter is cited,
> should it
> >      > still be quoted? Would a <span epub:type="se.name
> <http://se.name>
> >     <http://se.name>.publication.book"> tag
> >      > be needed in this latter case?
> >      >
> >      > Thanks!
> >      >
> >      > On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 6:07 PM Jacob Heybey
> <heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>
> >      >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >         Oh, you're right. I thought some of them were
> footnotes - it
> >      >         turns out all of them are section summaries. I'll
> remove them
> >      >         like you said.
> >      >
> >      >         On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:50 PM Alex Cabal
> >      >         <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>>>
> >     wrote:
> >      >
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>>>
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>>>>
> >      >              >          >
> >      >
>  <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
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> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      >
>  <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>
> >      >              >
> >      >
> >       <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
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> >     <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com
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> >      >              >          > To view this discussion on the
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> >      >              >
> >      >              >     --
> >      >              >     Sincerely,
> >      >              >
> >      >              >     Jacob Heybey
> >      >              >
> >      >              >
> >      >              >
> >      >              > --
> >      >              > Sincerely,
> >      >              >
> >      >              > Jacob Heybey
> >      >              >
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> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
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> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >         --
> >      >         Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      >         Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >     --
> >      >     Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      >     Jacob Heybey
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Jacob Heybey

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Jan 17, 2021, 9:42:28 AM1/17/21
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From a quick glance, I think we can probably dispense with the actual
volume divisions, because each work (except the Republic) has an intro
contained within it and I assume those intros are self-contained. Is
that correct?
If we don't do volume divisions, would the intro to the Republic make sense on its own,
possibly with some light editing? 

Yes to both questions; with the exception of the preface(s) at the beginning of the first volume. They are not self-contained - they are a generalized discussion of all the dialogues.

As for exploring the idea of producing the Republic separately, (and thereby creating new volume divisions) here are some scattered thoughts - let me know what sticks.

Goals: produce the Republic separately; maintain Jowett's ordering; our new divisions should be 'discoverable' to the unsophisticated reader.

- If we're producing the Republic separately, I think the Laws should be separate as well. This is easy, it's already in its own volume.
- Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, and Phaedo should be grouped under a title like "The Last Days of Socrates". This is a common grouping due to their shared context.
- Timaeus and Critias are produced together, by necessity to maintain Jowett's ordering. (They're in-between the Republic and the Laws) Timaeus gets a long introduction and analysis from Jowett (almost as detailed as his analysis of the Republic), but it's not well-known to modern readers.
- First Alcibiades, Menexenus, Second Alcibiades, and Eryxias don't have a clear consensus on authorship. They can be produced together.
- I have no opinions (yet) on the rest of the dialogues.
- All opinions subject to change as I read more of Jowett's reasoning for his ordering / grouping.
- The generalized prefaces are annoying - we could either cut them or reproduce them at the beginning of every production.

Do all of those points make sense? Some of them? If we take all of those suggestions, we'll end up with 5-10 productions of Plato's dialogues.

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Alex Cabal

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Jan 20, 2021, 4:56:12 PM1/20/21
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OK, after marinating on this for a few days, let's just keep the
Republic as part of this collection.

I think what we should do is simply keep Jowett's ordering but dispense
with the top level volume divisions. So all of the dialogs will be in
his sequence in our ebook but without vol 1, 2, etc. divisions. That way
we can include his top level intro, and the intros to each individual
dialog can be children of that dialog.

Currently, the SE webpage makes the titles of short stories and poems
searchable via the web interface. Maybe we should add some kind of "is
omnibus" metadata element to collections like these, to expose their
items to the search form. I'll think about that a little later.
> >      >      >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>>> wrote:
> >      >      >
> >      >      >         Oh, you're right. I thought some of them were
> >     footnotes - it
> >      >      >         turns out all of them are section
> summaries. I'll
> >     remove them
> >      >      >         like you said.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >         On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:50 PM Alex Cabal
> >      >      >         <al...@standardebooks.org
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> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
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> >      >     wrote:
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Vince

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Jan 20, 2021, 5:15:43 PM1/20/21
to Standard Ebooks
> On Jan 20, 2021, at 3:56 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>
> Currently, the SE webpage makes the titles of short stories and poems searchable via the web interface.

Wow. I did not know that, and it never would have occurred to me to try. That's fantastic.

Jacob Heybey

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Jan 20, 2021, 6:56:56 PM1/20/21
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Sounds good! I'll continue working on Plato.

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--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Jacob Heybey

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Jan 24, 2021, 7:56:08 PM1/24/21
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Question about the play-like structure of Plato:

Some of Plato's dialogues are structured as a narrative, others like a play. All of them have a "list of speakers" at the beginning, and most have one sentence describing the scene. I have two options in mind for structuring the dialogues.

First, we copy structures from plays in the corpus - that means a "dramatis personae" section, a paragraph describing the scene, and then either a standard narrative for narrative dialogues or a table for the dramatic dialogues.
<section id="dramatis-personae" epub:type="z3998:dramatis-personae">
    <ol>list of speakers</ol>
</section>
<p>In Athens.</p>
<!-- Dialogue begins here -->

Second, we could not have a "dramatis personae" section, and instead just list the speakers in a normal <p> tag. (I use <b> tags because "speakers" and "scene" are in all-caps in the scans)
<p><b>Speakers:</b> Socrates, etc.</p>
<p><b>Scene:</b> In Athens.</p>
<!-- Dialogue begins here -->

Strong preferences between the two structures? Third option I'm not thinking of?
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Jacob Heybey

Emma Sweeney

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Jan 24, 2021, 8:13:26 PM1/24/21
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Can you send a link to a page scan example?

Emma

Jacob Heybey

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Jan 24, 2021, 8:35:41 PM1/24/21
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This is the start of "Charmides", one of the narrative dialogues:

This is the start of "Euthyphro", one of the dramatic dialogues:





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Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Emma Sweeney

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Jan 24, 2021, 9:13:37 PM1/24/21
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Thanks for the links!

These definitely look like dramatis personaes and would structure them that way. And because there is only one scene, you could put the scene description in the dramatis personae section and the CSS would add space between the names and the scene.

That’s my take, anyway. Alex has the final say.

Jacob Heybey

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Jan 31, 2021, 4:40:57 PM1/31/21
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I'm currently struggling on how to handle sectioning Plato and I'd welcome guidance:

My original thought was to have each dialogue in a separate file, with each of them classed as articles (longer dialogues with natural divisions would be split up). As an example, Charmides would look like
<body epub:type="z3998:fiction">
     <article id="charmides">
         <section id="charmides-introduction">Translator's Introduction</section>
         <section id="charmides-dramatis-personae">Persons of the Dialogue</section>
         <section id="charmides-text">Actual dialogue</section>
    </article>
</body>

This scheme makes sense to me, but I'm a little nervous about it:
  1. How long is too long before I split up the sections into their own files? (Charmides is clearly short enough to be its own file, but Timaeus has a very long introduction).
    1. As a follow up, what should those split up files be named? I'm envisioning timaeus.xhtml for the stubs, timaeus-introduction.xhtml, and maybe timaeus-text.xhtml for the dialogue itself?
  2. How do I handle the translator's introduction being non-fiction and the dialogues being fiction? Is that a hint that they should be split into separate files no matter how short they are?




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Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Jan 31, 2021, 4:55:38 PM1/31/21
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That looks fine to me. There's no rule as to when to break up a bigger
file. If there are logical sections to the file and it is very long,
then you could break it up.

Re. fiction vs non-fiction, just move the semantic off of <body> and
onto whatever high level element is appropriate.

On 1/31/21 3:40 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> I'm currently struggling on how to handle sectioning Plato and I'd
> welcome guidance:
>
> My original thought was to have each dialogue in a separate file, with
> each of them classed as articles (longer dialogues with natural
> divisions would be split up). As an example, Charmides would look like
> <body epub:type="z3998:fiction">
>      <article id="charmides">
>          <section id="charmides-introduction">Translator's
> Introduction</section>
>          <section id="charmides-dramatis-personae">Persons of the
> Dialogue</section>
>          <section id="charmides-text">Actual dialogue</section>
>     </article>
> </body>
>
> This scheme makes sense to me, but I'm a little nervous about it:
>
> 1. How long is too long before I split up the sections into their own
> files? (Charmides is clearly short enough to be its own file, but
> Timaeus has a very long introduction).
> 1. As a follow up, what should those split up files be named? I'm
> envisioning timaeus.xhtml for the stubs,
> timaeus-introduction.xhtml, and maybe timaeus-text.xhtml for the
> dialogue itself?
> 2. How do I handle the translator's introduction being non-fiction and
> the dialogues being fiction? Is that a hint that they should be
> split into separate files no matter how short they are?
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 9:13 PM Emma Sweeney <sween...@gmail.com
> <mailto:sween...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the links!
>
> These definitely look like dramatis personaes and would structure
> them that way. And because there is only one scene, you could put
> the scene description in the dramatis personae section and the CSS
> would add space between the names and the scene.
>
> That’s my take, anyway. Alex has the final say.
> On Sunday, January 24, 2021 at 8:35:41 PM UTC-5 heyb...@gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Jacob Heybey
>
> --
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Jacob Heybey

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Feb 11, 2021, 9:09:53 PM2/11/21
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In "Protagoras", Plato provides about two dozen lines of a framing device - Socrates is talking to a Companion, and then starts recounting a conversation he had (the dialogue itself). The framing device is then dropped - never to be mentioned again. Applying dramatic formatting, the entire dialogue is a speech from Socrates, like this:

<tr>
    <td epub:type="persona">Companion</td>
    <td>Thank you, too, for telling us.</td>
</tr>
<tr>
    <td epub:type="persona">Socrates</td>
    </td>
        <p>That is thank you twice over. Listen then:-</p>
        entire dialogue goes here
    </td>
</tr>

This seems wasteful in regards to space (and a little confusing for the reader), but I'm struggling to think of a way to gracefully transition from the dramatic format to narrative format without breaking SE style rules. Thoughts?




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Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Feb 12, 2021, 12:56:15 PM2/12/21
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Can you send a link to the page scan?

On 2/11/21 8:09 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> In "Protagoras", Plato provides about two dozen lines of a framing
> device - Socrates is talking to a Companion, and then starts recounting
> a conversation he had (the dialogue itself). The framing device is then
> dropped - never to be mentioned again. Applying dramatic formatting, the
> entire dialogue is a speech from Socrates, like this:
>
> <tr>
>     <td epub:type="persona">Companion</td>
>     <td>Thank you, too, for telling us.</td>
> </tr>
> <tr>
>     <td epub:type="persona">Socrates</td>
>     </td>
>         <p>That is thank you twice over. Listen then:-</p>
> _*entire dialogue goes here*_
> > <mailto:sween...@gmail.com <mailto:sween...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >     Thanks for the links!
> >
> >     These definitely look like dramatis personaes and would structure
> >     them that way. And because there is only one scene, you could put
> >     the scene description in the dramatis personae section and
> the CSS
> >     would add space between the names and the scene.
> >
> >     That’s my take, anyway. Alex has the final say.
> >     On Sunday, January 24, 2021 at 8:35:41 PM UTC-5
> heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >         This is the start of "Charmides", one of the narrative
> dialogues:
> > https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/8/mode/2up
> >
> >         This is the start of "Euthyphro", one of the dramatic
> dialogues:
> > https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0002/page/74/mode/2up
> >
> >
> >
> >         On Sun, Jan 24, 2021 at 8:13 PM Emma Sweeney
> >         <sween...@gmail.com <mailto:sween...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >             Can you send a link to a page scan example?
> >
> >             Emma
> >             On Sunday, January 24, 2021 at 7:56:08 PM UTC-5
> >                 <heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >                     Sounds good! I'll continue working on Plato.
> >
> >                     On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 5:15 PM Vince
> >                     <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>> wrote:
> >
> >                          > On Jan 20, 2021, at 3:56 PM, Alex Cabal
> >                         <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
> >                          >
> >                          > Currently, the SE webpage makes the
> titles of
> >                         short stories and poems searchable via
> the web
> >                         interface.
> >
> >                         Wow. I did not know that, and it never would
> >                         have occurred to me to try. That's fantastic.
> >
> >                         --
> >                         You received this message because you are
> >                         subscribed to the Google Groups "Standard
> >                         Ebooks" group.
> >                         To unsubscribe from this group and stop
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> > standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
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> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/85C907C6-0869-4E0E-AE41-6EB6A4E651E6%40letterboxes.org.
> >
> >
> >
> >                     --
> >                     Sincerely,
> >
> >                     Jacob Heybey
> >
> >
> >
> >                 --
> >                 Sincerely,
> >
> >                 Jacob Heybey
> >
> >             --
> >             You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
> >             Google Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
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> >             from it, send an email to
> standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
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> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >
> >
> >
> >         --
> >         Sincerely,
> >
> >         Jacob Heybey
> >
> >     --
> >     You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> >     Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
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> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.
> >     To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jacob Heybey
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com
>
> >
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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Jacob Heybey

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Feb 12, 2021, 1:13:25 PM2/12/21
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Left page is the start of Socrates' narrative.

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Jacob Heybey

Alex Cabal

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Feb 12, 2021, 2:10:04 PM2/12/21
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Yeah I would not call that play dialog. It's just a short intro. You can
use <i> to italicize the speakers. But since it's so short, we're
removing the sidenotes, and we have space, expand the speakers to
`Socrates` and `Companion` for clarity
> > <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >                     Sounds good! I'll continue working on
> Plato.
> >      >
> >      >                     On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 5:15 PM Vince
> >      >                     <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >                          > On Jan 20, 2021, at 3:56 PM,
> Alex Cabal
> >      >                         <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
> >      >                          >
> >      >                          > Currently, the SE webpage makes the
> >     titles of
> >      >                         short stories and poems searchable via
> >     the web
> >      >                         interface.
> >      >
> >      >                         Wow. I did not know that, and it
> never would
> >      >                         have occurred to me to try. That's
> fantastic.
> >      >
> >      >                         --
> >      >                         You received this message because
> you are
> >      >                         subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Standard
> >      >                         Ebooks" group.
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> stop
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> >     <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>.
> >      >                         To view this discussion on the web
> visit
> >      >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/85C907C6-0869-4E0E-AE41-6EB6A4E651E6%40letterboxes.org.
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >                     --
> >      >                     Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      >                     Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >                 --
> >      >                 Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      >                 Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      >             --
> >      >             You received this message because you are
> subscribed
> >     to the
> >      >             Google Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
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> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>>.
> >      >
> >      >             To view this discussion on the web visit
> >      >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/73ed4a64-a6c0-4861-b2dc-2f15ecd2468dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >         --
> >      >         Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      >         Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      >     --
> >      >     You received this message because you are subscribed
> to the
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> >      >     Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
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> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
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> >      >
> >
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> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      > Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      > Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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> >      > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
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> >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jacob Heybey
> >
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Jacob Heybey

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Feb 13, 2021, 8:11:50 PM2/13/21
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Well, Euthydemus does the exact same thing as Protagoras. This time though, the framing device is not dropped - the structure goes like this:

- Short dramatic introduction with Socrates and Crito speaking
- Long narrative portion (the actual dialogue)
- Dramatic "intermission" where Crito questions Socrates about the narrative
- Another long narrative portion (completing the dialogue)
- Dramatic conclusion where Crito and Socrates discuss the narrative and then part ways

So unlike Protagoras, the framing device is carried through to the conclusion, but the majority of the text is still Socrates' narrative. Should I handle it the same way as Protagoras?

Page scans here: Euthydemus

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--
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Jacob Heybey

Jacob Heybey

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Feb 13, 2021, 8:51:57 PM2/13/21
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And while I'm asking questions, what's our stance on expanding abbreviations? For example, the speakers in dramatic sections are all abbreviated in the scans, and I'm expanding on them. But there's also examples like this in the endnotes: "Compare Aristot. Soph. Elenchi", which is short for Aristotle, Sophisticus Elenchis (I'm not sure why they cut off only the last two letters of "Aristotle".) Is it worthwhile to expand Aristot. to Aristotle and Soph. to Sophisticus? If so, how far do I take this? Footnotes are notoriously full of hard to parse abbreviations; should we expand cp. to compare, ch. to chapter, and so on?
--
Sincerely,

Jacob Heybey

Vince Rice

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Feb 13, 2021, 9:14:55 PM2/13/21
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I’ve spent the last four months doing exactly that for Decline and Fall. But it’s optional; you don’t have to. If you do, make sure you commit the changes as Editorial.

On Feb 13, 2021, at 7:52 PM, Jacob Heybey <heyb...@gmail.com> wrote:



Alex Cabal

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Feb 14, 2021, 4:52:54 PM2/14/21
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Personally I prefer to expand all those abbreviations for clarity
especially for some of those more obscure Greek references where it just
isn't obviuos anymore. But as Vince said it's not a requirement. If you
do expand them, it makes sense to expand all of them.
> <https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/188/mode/2up>
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 2:10 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> Yeah I would not call that play dialog. It's just a short intro.
> You can
> use <i> to italicize the speakers. But since it's so short, we're
> removing the sidenotes, and we have space, expand the speakers to
> `Socrates` and `Companion` for clarity
>
> On 2/12/21 12:13 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> > https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/130/mode/2up
> >
> > Left page is the start of Socrates' narrative.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 12:56 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>>
> wrote:
> >      >      >
> >      >      >                     Sounds good! I'll continue
> working on
> >     Plato.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >                     On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at
> 5:15 PM Vince
> >      >      >                     <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>
> >      >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>>> wrote:
> >      >      >
> >      >      >                          > On Jan 20, 2021, at
> 3:56 PM,
> >     Alex Cabal
> >      >      >
>  <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >      >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>>.
> >      >      >     To view this discussion on the web visit
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >      > --
> >      >      > Sincerely,
> >      >      >
> >      >      > Jacob Heybey
> >      >      >
> >      >      > --
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> >      >
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>>.
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> >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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>  <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>.
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> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      > Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      > Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      > --
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> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
> >      > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >      >
> >
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> >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DG%2BRx6TK27%2Bzv2guDPeaAt-at6viiMQSdtN7en9ehFhjw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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> > Jacob Heybey
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> Jacob Heybey
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
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> Jacob Heybey
>
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Alex Cabal

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Feb 14, 2021, 4:54:38 PM2/14/21
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Yes. Like Protagoras it doesn't make sense to have that in a play
structure because the meat of it is so long; and even though it's
sandwiched in play-like dialog there's no way to make that a smooth
transition between a table and block element.

On 2/13/21 7:11 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> Well, Euthydemus does the exact same thing as Protagoras. This time
> though, the framing device is not dropped - the structure goes like this:
>
> - Short dramatic introduction with Socrates and Crito speaking
> - Long narrative portion (the actual dialogue)
> - Dramatic "intermission" where Crito questions Socrates about the narrative
> - Another long narrative portion (completing the dialogue)
> - Dramatic conclusion where Crito and Socrates discuss the narrative and
> then part ways
>
> So unlike Protagoras, the framing device is carried through to the
> conclusion, but the majority of the text is still Socrates' narrative.
> Should I handle it the same way as Protagoras?
>
> Page scans here: Euthydemus
> <https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/188/mode/2up>
>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 2:10 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> Yeah I would not call that play dialog. It's just a short intro. You
> can
> use <i> to italicize the speakers. But since it's so short, we're
> removing the sidenotes, and we have space, expand the speakers to
> `Socrates` and `Companion` for clarity
>
> On 2/12/21 12:13 PM, Jacob Heybey wrote:
> > https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/130/mode/2up
> >
> > Left page is the start of Socrates' narrative.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 12:56 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com <mailto:heyb...@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >      >      >
> >      >      >                     Sounds good! I'll continue
> working on
> >     Plato.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >                     On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 5:15 PM
> Vince
> >      >      >                     <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>
> >      >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>
> >     <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>>> wrote:
> >      >      >
> >      >      >                          > On Jan 20, 2021, at 3:56 PM,
> >     Alex Cabal
> >      >      >                         <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >      >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>>.
> >      >      >     To view this discussion on the web visit
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e38b8b56-02d4-4965-acac-f3395d40f673n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >      > --
> >      >      > Sincerely,
> >      >      >
> >      >      > Jacob Heybey
> >      >      >
> >      >      > --
> >      >      > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>>.
> >      >      > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com
> >      >
> >      >      >
> >      >
> >
>  <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CABjjQ%3DFL_4hC5rZowka9Mo%2Bt%3Dhedj4%2BwGdPraGftpKot-2ruCA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >      >
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> >      >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>>>.
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> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a3c279f2-c010-221c-b750-a78da6f83694%40standardebooks.org.
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      > Sincerely,
> >      >
> >      > Jacob Heybey
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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> >      > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.
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> >
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> >
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> >
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Jacob Heybey

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Feb 17, 2021, 8:10:14 PM2/17/21
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One of the endnotes in Euthydemus features a complex quote that seemed clearly incorrect in the scans, but has proven surprisingly hard to fix. This is my current attempt:

<blockquote>
    <p>“Of ambiguous propositions the following are instances:—</p>
    <p>‘I hope that you the enemy may slay.’</p> <!-- each proposition is enclosed in quotes -->
    <!-- list of propositions snipped -->
    <p>‘Is a speaking of the silent possible?’ ‘The silent’ denotes either the speaker or the subject of 
speech.</p>
    <p>There are three kinds of ambiguity of term or proposition. The first is when there is an equal 
linguistic propriety in several interpretations; the second when one is improper but customary; the 
third when the ambiguity arises in the combination of elements that are in themselves 
unambiguous, as in ‘knowing letters.’ ‘Knowing’ and ‘letters’ are perhaps separately unambiguous, 
but in combination may imply either that the letters are known, or that they themselves have 
knowledge. Such are the modes in which propositions and terms may be ambiguous.”</p>
</blockquote>

I can't get lint to accept this - it keeps complaining about an unclosed quote in the first <p> element. Is this appropriate to put in the lint ignore file?
Page scan: https://archive.org/details/b24750189_0001/page/240/mode/2up
Link to the quoted material: classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/sophist_refut.1.1.html (not the same translation, but search for the phrase "Examples such as the following depend upon amphiboly")

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Emma Sweeney

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Feb 17, 2021, 8:30:40 PM2/17/21
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In the page scans, this looks like British-style quotations. Just convert it into American-style quotations.

Emma

Jacob Heybey

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Feb 17, 2021, 8:57:26 PM2/17/21