Royal Ancestry of Margaret Fleming, wife of Griffith Bowen, Gent., of Wales and Boston, Massachusetts

969 views
Skip to first unread message

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 1, 2014, 8:08:21 PM10/1/14
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

Charles Ward contacted me offlist recently and brought my attention to a possible King Edward I descent for the New World immigrant, Margaret Fleming, wife of Griffith Bowen, Gentleman [died 1676], of Llangewydd, Gower, Glamorganshire, Wales, and Boston, Massachusetts. After Charles Ward contacted me, I discovered that Susan Johanson had two similar lines of descents in her online database.

The critical generation below is Generation 6 (Anne le Boteler or Butler = John Wogan). John Wogan is stated in several ancient Welsh pedigrees published by Meyrick to have married Anne, daughter of the Earl of Ormond.

Elsewhere I find that Peter Bartrum, Welsh Genealogies 300-1400 3 (1980): 86 [Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2] states that "John [Wogan] d. before 1420 = Ann d. James Butler Earl of Ormond."

Mr. Bartrum's Wogan pedigree may be view at the following weblink:

http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5373/bleddyn%20ap%20maenyrch%202.png?sequence=1

I've since done additional research on the Wogan family. As best I can tell, Generation 6 is sound. John Wogan's father, Sir David Wogan [died 1417], was a wealthy Irish nobleman who owned one castle in Ireland and one in England. As such, I have no trouble accepting that Sir David Wogan's son and heir apparent, John Wogan, was married to a daughter of the Earl of Ormond as claimed.

I've copied below my file account of John Wogan and his wife, Anne le Boteler (or Butler). I've also copied below the information presented in Susan Johanson's database which shows the two lines of descent from John Wogan and his wife, Anne, down to Margaret Fleming, wife of Griffith Bowen, Gentleman. Susan Johanson's database can be viewed at the following weblink:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=johanson&id=I53334

Special thanks go to Charles Ward and Susan Johanson for their assistance in this matter. As a double descendant of Margaret (Fleming) Bowen, I'm most interested in this line.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +

My file account:

ANNE LE BOTELER (or BUTLER), married probably in 1405 (date of settlement) JOHN WOGAN, of Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire, son and heir apparent of David Wogan, Knt. (died 1417), of Kilka, Balymacloghter, Berton, Carbry, Cliwyn, Dunlost, Maynon, Meon, Okethy, Rathcoffy, and Tristeldermot, and Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire, King's knight, by his 1st wife, Anne, daughter of William Plunket, Knt., of Ireland. He was born say 1385. They had two daughters, Katherine (wife of Harry Wogan, Knt., and Owain Dwnn) and Anne (wife of Oliver Eustace, Knt.). JOHN WOGAN probably died before 1414 (date of settlement).

References:

Meyrick, Heraldic Vis. of Wales & Part of the Marches between the Years 1586 and 1613 1 (1846): 21 (Dwnn ped.: "Syr David Wgan a briododd Ann sol aeres Syr William Blwnket o Werddon marchog. ai mab John Wgan o Bicton esgwier a briododd Ann v Iarl Wormond ai verched ac aeressav oeddynt ddwy yr hynaf Katrin gwraid Owain Dwnn o Modlysgwmb Esgwier, ar llal oedd Ann gwraid Syr Olvir Ewstans o Weddon Kt."), 42 (Wogan ped.: "John Wgan off Picton Esqr = ........ merch Iarll Wormed."), 220 (Wogan ped.: "John Wgan o Bicton Esg. = Ann do to Iarll Wermod o Werddon."); 2 (1846): 53. Morris, County Seats of the Noblemen & Gentlemen of Great Britain & Ireland 1 (1866): 21-22. Jour. County Kildare Arch. Soc. 2 (1899): 5-6. Allen, Notes on the Sheriffs of Pembrokeshire, 1541-1899 (1900): 3-4. Owen, Old Pembroke Fams. in the Ancient County Palatine of Pembroke (1902): 35-45 ("David [Wogan], like his predecessors, had large possessions in Ireland, and in 1408 had a licence to ship four weighs of wheat to his castle in Wales. David had two sons: John, whose daughter Katherine brought Picton to Owen Donn, whose grand-daughter Jane brought it to Thomas Phillips of Cilsant; and Thomas, the ancestor of the Wogans of Rathcoffy, in co. Kildare."). West Wales Hist. Recs. 6 (1916): 169-232. Bartrum, Welsh Gens. 300-1400 3 (1980): 86 [Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2: "John [Wogan] d. before 1420 = Ann d. James Butler Earl of Ormond"].

+ + + + + + + +

Descents taken from Susan Johanson's database:

1. King Edward I of England, died 1307, married Eleanor of Castile.
2. Elizabeth PLANTAGENET b: 07 AUG 1282 d: 05 MAY 1316
+ Humphrey de BOHUN b: ABT 1276 d: 16 MAR 1322
3. Eleanor de BOHUN b: BET 1313 AND 1314 d: 1363
+ James BUTLER 1st Earl of Ormond b: ABT 1305 d: 06 JAN 1338
4. James BUTLER 2nd Earl of Ormond b: 04 OCT 1331 d: 18 OCT 1382
+ Elizabeth DARCY b: ABT 1335 d: 24 MAR 1390
5. James BUTLER 3rd Earl of Ormond b: AFT 1361 d: 07 SEP 1405
+ Anne de WELLES b: ABT 1360 d: AFT 26 JUN 1397
6. Anne BUTLER b: ABT 1395 d: UNKNOWN
+ John WOGAN b: ABT 1390 d: 1421
7. Katherine WOGAN b: ABT 1417 d: UNKNOWN
+ Owain Dwnn ap MAREDUDD b: ABT 1395 d: UNKNOWN
8. Harry Dwnn ap OWAIN DWNN b: ABT 1435 d: 26 JUL 1469
+ Margaret WOGAN b: ABT 1440 d: UNKNOWN
9. Jenet ferch HARRY DWNN b: ABT 1454 d: UNKNOWN
+ Trahaearn ap MORGAN b: ABT 1452 d: UNKNOWN
10. Catrin ferch TRAHAERN b: ABT 1485 d: UNKNOWN
+ Henry BARRETT b: ABT 1482 d: UNKNOWN
11. Margaret BARRETT b: ABT 1520 d: UNKNOWN
+ William DAWKIN b: ABT 1515 d: UNKNOWN
12. Jenkin DAWKIN b: ABT 1545 d: UNKNOWN
+ Elizabeth JENKIN b: ABT 1545 d: UNKNOWN
13. Sarah DAWKINS b: ABT 1572 d: UNKNOWN
+ Henry FLEMING b: ABT 1568 d: AFT 1650
14. Margaret Fleming b: ABT 1605 d: 1675
+ Griffith BOWEN b: ABT 1600 d: 1676

2nd Line

9. Jenet ferch HARRY DWNN b: ABT 1454 d: UNKNOWN
+ Trahaearn ap MORGAN b: ABT 1452 d: UNKNOWN
10. Harry MORGAN b: ABT 1470 d: UNKNOWN
+ Margred WOGAN b: ABT 1475 d: UNKNOWN
11. Anne MORGAN b: ABT 1500 d: UNKNOWN
+ William PENRY b: ABT 1490 d: UNKNOWN
12. Elsbeth PENRY b: ABT 1522 d: UNKNOWN
+ Hugh ap DAVID b: ABT 1515 d: UNKNOWN
13. Sara ferch HUGH b: ABT 1540 d: UNKNOWN
+ William FLEMING b: ABT 1530 d: UNKNOWN
14. Henry FLEMING b: ABT 1568 d: AFT 1650
+ Sarah DAWKINS b: ABT 1572 d: UNKNOWN
15. Margaret Fleming b: ABT 1605 d: 1675
+ Griffith BOWEN b: ABT 1600 d: 1676

jhigg...@yahoo.com

unread,
Oct 2, 2014, 1:10:20 AM10/2/14
to
For a different version of the wife of John Wogan of Picton, see "The Wogans of Pembrokeshire", by Francis Green, in vol. 6 p. 186 (1916) of West Wales Historical Records - an article cited briefly above (without full title) but not discussed. In addition to a different identification of John Wogan's wife, the article has some useful cautionary comments on the early pedigrees of the Wogan family - particularly those in Dwnn's Visitations as published by Meyrick, which are cited above and appear to be the source of the supposed Ormond connection.

For yet another version of the wife of John Wogan, see vol. 12 pt. 1 of CP, page 6 note g (sub Slane). The French-language source cited there (authored by an Irish immigrant to France) can be found at the Gallica website of the Bibliotheque Nationale de France.

Since the Susan Johanson database has been cited above, here's another Rootsweb databased with a slightly different version of the supposed Ormond connection (click on Ann Butler):
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=aet-t&id=I59519
Of course neither version is supported by the standard pedigrees of the Butler family of Ormond.

This supposed link to the Butlers of Ormond has the look and smell of a concocted, fictional connection. It certainly doesn't have adequate support, although some people will apparently "have no trouble" accepting it simply because it provides the desired royal descent. :-)

For those readers whose interests extend beyond American colonial immigrants, John Wogan (and whoever his wife is) are ancestral to many members of the British peerage. For example the present Duke of Cambridge is descended from two of the daughters of John Wogan, including one (Elizabeth) not mentioned in the account above.

Brad Verity

unread,
Oct 2, 2014, 12:08:31 PM10/2/14
to
On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 5:08:21 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Charles Ward contacted me offlist recently and brought my attention to a possible King Edward I descent for the New World immigrant, Margaret Fleming, wife of Griffith Bowen, Gentleman [died 1676], of Llangewydd, Gower, Glamorganshire, Wales, and Boston, Massachusetts. After Charles Ward contacted me, I discovered that Susan Johanson had two similar lines of descents in her online database.
> The critical generation below is Generation 6 (Anne le Boteler or Butler = John Wogan). John Wogan is stated in several ancient Welsh pedigrees published by Meyrick to have married Anne, daughter of the Earl of Ormond.
> Elsewhere I find that Peter Bartrum, Welsh Genealogies 300-1400 3 (1980): 86 [Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2] states that "John [Wogan] d. before 1420 = Ann d. James Butler Earl of Ormond."
> Mr. Bartrum's Wogan pedigree may be view at the following weblink:
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5373/bleddyn%20ap%20maenyrch%202.png?sequence=1

Dear Douglas,

Thank you for the link to Bartrum's pedigree. Originally, the pedigree had "Ann d. of John Butler Earl of Ormond", but then in pencil 'John' is crossed out and "[:James]" inserted. Also in pencil is written "d. before 1420", with a footnote "WWHR Vol. 6 (1916), p. 185" - this death date pertaining to John Wogan.

Are the penciled in portions by the hand of Bartrum, or is it some other person editing his work?

You've interpreted the pedigree to read:
> Bartrum, Welsh Gens. 300-1400 3 (1980): 86 [Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2: "John [Wogan] d. before 1420 = Ann d. James Butler Earl of Ormond"].

I just want to be certain that it was Bartrum himself who was responsible for the pencilled in portions.

The source "WWHR Vol. 6 (1916), p. 185" pencilled in as a footnote, you have cited as:
> West Wales Hist. Recs. 6 (1916): 169-232.

Did you read the article? If so, why did you not mention that it cites a different identification for John Wogan's wife, as John Higgins points out:
On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 10:10:20 PM UTC-7, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> For a different version of the wife of John Wogan of Picton, see "The Wogans of Pembrokeshire", by Francis Green, in vol. 6 p. 186 (1916) of West Wales Historical Records - an article cited briefly above (without full title) but not discussed. In addition to a different identification of John Wogan's wife, the article has some useful cautionary comments on the early pedigrees of the Wogan family - particularly those in Dwnn's Visitations as published by Meyrick, which are cited above and appear to be the source of the supposed Ormond connection.

> I've since done additional research on the Wogan family. As best I can tell, Generation 6 is sound. John Wogan's father, Sir David Wogan [died 1417], was a wealthy Irish nobleman who owned one castle in Ireland and one in England. As such, I have no trouble accepting that Sir David Wogan's son and heir apparent, John Wogan, was married to a daughter of the Earl of Ormond as claimed.

But you haven't placed an Anne, wife of John Wogan, among Butler of Ormond sources. Have you checked the Calendar of Ormonde Deeds to see if she or the Wogans appear? There is a series of privately printed books, from 1962, on the Butler Earls of Ormond, by T. Blake Butler. The FHL has the series, and many original documents are quoted within them to support the genealogies presented. You may want to look into that and see if an Anne Butler, wife of John Wogan, appears among the children of the 3rd Earl of Ormond.

> ANNE LE BOTELER (or BUTLER), married probably in 1405 (date of settlement) JOHN WOGAN, of Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire,

What is the source for the 1405 marriage settlement? It's not Bartrum, who makes no mention of this in his pedigree.

> 5. James BUTLER 3rd Earl of Ormond b: AFT 1361 d: 07 SEP 1405
>
> + Anne de WELLES b: ABT 1360 d: AFT 26 JUN 1397
>
> 6. Anne BUTLER b: ABT 1395 d: UNKNOWN
>
> + John WOGAN b: ABT 1390 d: 1421

What makes you assume Anne Butler, if she existed, was a legitimate daughter of the 3rd Earl of Ormond and his wife Anne Welles? Bartrum doesn't state who her mother was. Per the 3rd Earl's bio in ODNB:
"Ormond restored the fortunes of the family lordship, diminished by territorial losses suffered at the hands of the renascent Irish. He secured his borders through marriage alliances with Tadhg Ó Cearbhaill, lord of Ely (Éile), and with the Burkes of Clanricarde (1401). An indenture between the earl and the Ó Braonáin family of Odogh (1401) provided for the adjudication of frontier disputes in time of peace. ... Ormond married Anne (fl. 1386-1397), daughter of John Welles, before 17 June 1386; to her James Butler, fourth earl of Ormond (the White Earl), was born. A younger son, Richard, was ancestor of Piers Butler, eighth earl of Ormond. Another son, Thomas Butler, prior of Kilmainham, may have been illegitimate. Ormond had in addition four sons--James, ancestor of the Butlers of Cahir, Edmund, Gerald, and Theobald--with Katherine of Desmond. ... In December 1399 Katherine offered to surrender £200 granted to her by Ormond if he were successful in securing in Rome a dispensation for their marriage. A curious agreement (18 January 1399) between the earl and the bishop of Cloyne, who undertook among other things to act as the earl's agent in the Roman curia, may represent the opening moves in a legal campaign to clear the way for a marriage that, in the event, never took place."

No mention of any daughters, but apparently there was at least one daughter of the 3rd Earl of Ormond - Katherine Butler, the second wife of Thomas Fleming, 2nd Lord Slane (c.1358-c.1434). I have her in my database as a legitimate daughter by Anne Welles, but with a note that further research is needed to verify her.

I feel further research is needed to also verify Anne, wife of John Wogan, as a daughter of the 3rd Earl. You can't just rely on old Welsh pedigrees, and on the late Bartrum, who, for all we know, was simply repeating them.

If you do come across a comprehensive source on the children of the 3rd Earl of Ormond, including which were legitimate and which weren't, that would be very helpful!

Cheers, -----Brad

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 2, 2014, 9:48:32 PM10/2/14
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

Since my original post on the Wogan family, I've had the opportunity to check an Irish source, Rotulorum Patentium et Clausorum Cancellariae Hiberniae Calendarium, Volume 1, Part I, published in 1828. This book contains a variety of documents pertaining to Irish families in the period from King Henry II to King Henry VII.

On page 219, the following document is found which pertains to the administration of the estate of John Wogan, son and heir of David Wogan, knight, dated 1421.

Date: 17 April 1421.

"R. p. eo qd. oia. man'ia. tre. &c. qua fuer' Johis f' & her' David Wogan militis in co. Kild', que in man' Rs, rone min' etat' Eliz'e, Kat'ine, Johe & Agnetis filiar' & hedu' dci Johis, exist', in frontura marchiar' Hibnicor'inim' sita & p ip'os pene destructa sunt, de assensu &c. p m'capco'em Johis f. Rob'ti Burnell de Dub' & Pat' Penkeston de co' Kild', comis' Johi Bellewe mil' jun' custod' oi'm dcor' man'ior' &c., hend' dur' bpito, (dotib' Anastacie nup ux dci Dav', & Marga'te nup ux' dci Johis f' Dav', exceptis,) reddend' extent'. Dub', 17 Ap."

The above record indicates that the manors, lands, etc. in county Kildare which formerly belonged to John son and heir of David Wogan knight were granted to John Bellewe, knight, the younger, during the minority of Elizabeth, Katherine, Joan, and Agnes, daughters and heirs of the said John. The dowers of Anastasie late wife of the said David Wogan and Margaret late the wife of John son of David Wogan were excepted.

The above record proves that John Wogan survived his father, Sir David Wogan, who died in 1417. This record also tells us that John Wogan was survived by a widow, Margaret, and four daughters, Elizabeth, Katherine, Joan, and Agnes.

As Mr. Higgins has kindly pointed out, Complete Peerage 12(1) (1953): 6, note g (sub Slane) indicates that John Wogan's eldest daughter and heiress, Elizabeth Wogan, was married by papal dispensation dated 11 May 1422 to Christopher Fleming, Lord Slane, son and heir of Thomas Fleming, Lord Slane, by Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Preston, Knt., by his 1st wife, Margaret, daughter of Walter de Bermingham, Knt., of Castle Carbury, co. Kildare, Chief Governor of Ireland. The dispensation for this marriage is found in Cal. of Entries in the Papal Registers: Papal Letters, 1417-1431, pg. 221, which indicates that Elizabeth Wogan and Christopher Fleming were related in the 3rd and 4th degrees of affinity. The degrees of affinity mean that Elizabeth Wogan was a second cousin once removed to Christopher Fleming's first wife, Levita, daughter of Martin Ferrers, of Bere Ferrers, Devon.

Assuming that Elizabeth Wogan was approximately aged 15 at the time of he marriage, this would place her birth as about 1407.

Complete Peerage 12(1) (1953): 6, note g (sub Slane) notes that a John Wogan (doubtless Elizabeth's father) is recorded by Hollinshed as having married in 1411 to the eldest daughter of Christopher Preston. The record in Hollinshed is attributed by Complete Peerage as being in Hollinshed, Chronicle of Ireland, p. 75. However, I found the marriage recorded in Hollished's Chronicles of England, Scotland & Ireland 6 (1808): 263. It reads as follows:

"In the year 1411, marriages were celebrated among the nobilitie in Ireland .... John Wogan matched with the eldest daughter of Christopher Preston." END OF QUOTE.

The above record may be viewed at page 263 the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=lb4_AAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:E3Z50Ql81EMC&hl=en&sa=X&ei=h-0sVNi3JNidygTAoYGgDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=Wogan&f=false

I assume the Preston woman named in this record was John Wogan's surviving wife, Margaret, and that she was named for her paternal grandmother, Margaret de Bermingham [died 1361], wife of Sir Robert Preston, knight.

If correct, then Elizabeth Wogan's step-mother, Margaret Preston, would have been the first cousin of her husband, Christopher Fleming, Lord Slane. Since the papal dispensation makes no mention of Elizabeth Wogan and Christopher Fleming themselves being related in the 2nd degree, it seems clear that Margaret Preston was not the mother of Elizabeth Wogan. We can be certain of this for another reason as Elizabeth Wogan was born c.1407, whereas John Wogan did not marry Margaret Preston until 1411.

This means, of course, that John Wogan [died 1421] must have had two wives, and that his surviving wife, Margaret Preston, was a later wife.

This, of course, represents a correction to the text in Complete Peerage 12(1) (1953): 6 (sub Slane) which assumes that Elizabeth Wogan was the daughter of John Wogan's surviving wife, Margaret. It is obvious on two counts that she was not the daughter of Margaret (Preston) Wogan.

Having said that, we may return to the various ancient pedigrees of the Wogan family found in Meyrick, Heraldic Vis. of Wales and Part of the Marches between the Years 1586 and 1613, Volume 1, published in 1846. When approaching Welsh pedigrees, it is important to validate as many facts as possible to see if the pedigree stands scrutiny from available contemporary records. Here are what the pedigrees state:

Page 21 (Dwnn ped.: "Syr David Wgan a briododd Ann sol aeres Syr William Blwnket o Werddon marchog. ai mab John Wgan o Bicton esgwier a briododd Ann v Iarl Wormond ai verched ac aeressav oeddynt ddwy yr hynaf Katrin gwraid Owain Dwnn o Modlysgwmb Esgwier, ar llal oedd Ann gwraid Syr Olvir Ewstans o Weddon Kt.").

Page 42 (Wogan ped.: "John Wgan off Picton Esqr = ........ merch Iarll Wormed.").

Page 220 (Wogan ped.: "John Wgan o Bicton Esg. = Ann do to Iarll Wermod o Werddon.");

In the first record we are told that Sir David Wogan married Anne, daughter of William Plunket, which couple are the parents of John Wogan. Sir David Wogan's son, John Wogan, in turn is stated to have married Anne, the daughter of the Earl of Ormond. John Wogan and his wife, Anne, are in turn stated to have been the parents of two daughters, Katherine, wife of Owain Dwnn, Esq., and Anne, wife of Oliver Eustace [or Ewstans], Knt.

So we have three generations presented in the first pedigree. Can these statements be verified from contemporary records?

The answer is yes, to a large degree they can. For starters, Sir David Wogan and his first wife, Anne Plunket, are specifically named in a papal indult dated 1397, which reads as follows:

2 Id. Nov. 1397. David Wogan, knight, nobleman, and Anne Plunket his wife, noble woman, of the diocese of Dublin, granted an indult to choose their confessor, who after hearing their confessor, may grant them absolution and enjoin a salutary penance. Reference: Bliss and Twenlow, Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers, 5 (1904): 145, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=LB_f8o1b2qAC&pg=PA145

So far so good.

Next the pedigrees inform us that John Wogan was married to Anne, daughter of the Earl of Ormond, and that they had two daughters, Katherine and Anne. We know from the record of the administration of the estates of John Wogan dated 1421, that he was survived by a wife, Margaret (who was evidently a second wife), and four daughters, Elizabeth, Katherine, Joan, and Agnes. The daughters Katherine and Agnes would would be the daughters Katherine and Anne named in the Welsh pedigree. The name Agnes was interchangeable with Anne in this time period.

So we again have a good fit.

Finally, we are told by the Welsh pedigrees that John Wogan's daughter, Katherine Wogan, married Owain Dwnn, Esq. For contemporary confirmation of this marriage which took place shortly before 27 November 1438, please see West Wales Historical Records 6 (1916): 187-188, which may viewed at the following weblink:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015048401718;view=1up;seq=219

The one remaining item that I've been unable to confirm from the Welsh pedigrees is the marriage of the younger Wogan daughter, Anne (or Agnes) Wogan, to Oliver Eustace, Knt. However, I haven't specifically looked for contemporary evidence to prove that marriage. I should note that the Wogan pedigree in Meyrick, pg. 46, indicates that it was Joan, not Anne, Wogan who married Sir Oliver Ewstans.

In summary we have several factlets presented by the first Wogan pedigree published by Meyrick. Where possible, I find that the factlets conform to the known information derived from contemporary sources. As such, I believe the first and other pedigrees of the Wogan family published by Meyrick are sound.

With respect to the children of James le Boteler (or Butler), 3rd Earl of Ormond [died 1405], and his wife, Anne Welles, my research indicates that Earl James and his wife, Anne, had two sons, James [4th Earl of Ormond] and Richard, Knt., and allegedly one daughter, Joan (wife of Teige O'Carroll). By his mistress, Katherine, daughter of Gerald Fitz Maurice, 3rd Earl of Desmond, Earl James had four illegitimate sons, James 'Galdie,' Edmund, Gerald, and Theobald. By an unknown mistress, he had illegitimate sons, Thomas, Knt., and Robert.

For further particulars of the life of James le Boteler, 3rd Earl of Ormond [died 1405], interested parties may wish to consult a well documented article concerning him published in Saul, Fourteenth Century England 5 (2008): 94-115. There is also helpful information on James le Boteler, 3rd Earl, found in Butler, Gen. of the Butlers of Ireland 6 (1962): 20-24; 9 (1962): 1, 31-46.

While it is possible that Anne, wife of John Wogan, might be an illegitimate daughter of James le Boteler, 3rd Earl of Ormond, I believe the fact that John Wogan's father, Sir David Wogan, was styled a nobleman and that he held extensive estates, including two castles, negates against that idea. Sir David Wogan would have been in a position socially to have married his son and heir, John Wogan, to a legitimate daughter of James, 3rd Earl of Ormond. Also the given name of John Wogan's wife, Anne, fits nicely with her being the daughter of Earl James' lawful wife, Anne Welles.

Once again I wish to thank Charles Ward and Susan Johanson for their interest and support in this matter.

Finally I should note that Margaret de Bermingham [died 1361], wife of Sir Robert Preston, Knt., mentioned above was the sister and heiress of Walter de Bermingham, Knt., the younger [died 1361]. In a recent post here on the newsgroup, I showed that Margaret (or Margery) de Scales, wife of Robert Howard, Knt., was previously the wife of Sir Walter de Bermington, Knt., the younger [died 1361].
Message has been deleted

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 3, 2014, 4:56:52 AM10/3/14
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

In my post earlier today, I stated that I hadn't yet documented that Anne Wogan, daughter of John Wogan [died 1421], married Sir Oliver Eustace as claimed in the ancient Wogan pedigrees published by Meyrick.

This evening I came across contemporary evidence of this marriage. The marriage is proven by a letter dated 23 Jan. 1454, written by "chief persons" in the County of Kildare written to Richard, Duke of York, then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. A transcript of the letter is published in Ellis, Original letters, illustrative of English history, 2nd Ser. 1 (1827), pages 117-124, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MbvrtXr_KF0C&pg=PA117

The letter gives an account of the conditions of the country. On pages 118-119 mention is made of Edmund Botiller and William Botiller, cousins germane to James [Butler], 5th Earl of Ormond, then Earl of Wiltshire. The letter proceeds to relate that the said William Botiller, Nicholas Wogan, David Wogan, and Richard Wogan, came with diverse Irish enemies and English rebels to Rathcoffy Castle, where "Anne Wogan sumtyme wyffe to Oliver Eustace, then beyng the Kynges widue, was dwelling." It is further stated that these parties "brant the yates of the said place, and took hir with them and Edward Eustace, son and hire to the said Olyver, and sonne and heire apparent to the said Anne, and of the age of viij. yeres, and yit holdeth them as prysoners, and toke godes and catals of the said Anneis to the value of v.C. marks."

I find there is an online history of Rathcoffey Castle, co. Kildare at the following website:

http://www.abandonedireland.com/Rathcoffey.html

The website relates that the Manor of Rathcoffey was granted to Sir John Wogan in 1417. However, another website correctly states that this manor was granted to Sir John Wogan, Kings Governor of Ireland, in 1317. For the second website, see the following weblink:

http://seamuscullen.net/rathcoffeyhistory.html

Sir John Wogan, grantee of Rathcoffey manor in 1317, was Justiciar of Ireland from 1295 to 1313. He was the grandfather of Sir David Wogan [died 1417, husband of Anne Plunket], and the great-grandfather of John Wogan [died 1421, husband of Anne Boteler]. A useful biography of him can be found online at the following weblink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wogan_%28Justiciar_of_Ireland%29

The manor of Rathcoffey, co. Kildare was held by Sir David Wogan at the time of his death in 1417. This is proven by the assignment of dower awarded to his 2nd wife and surviving widow, Anastacia de Stanton, in 1418, which assignment is recorded in Rotulorum Patentium et Clausorum Cancellariae Hiberniae Calendarium, Volume 1, Part I (1828): 222-223. For an English translation of the assignment of her dower, see Journal of Co. Kildare Arch. Soc. 3 (1902): 88-97, available at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=FmQNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA88

I assume the manor subsequently fell by inheritance to Anne Wogan, wife of Oliver Eustace, which explains why she was residing there shortly before 23 January 1454.

A wikipedia article online states that in 1453 "a private war erupted between different branches of the Wogan family for possession of the Castle." I presume this is why Anne (Wogan) Eustace was taken prisoner by her Wogan kinsmen.

So we have contemporary evidence as to the given and maiden name of Anne Wogan and also of her marriage to Oliver Eustace. Her son and heir, Edward Eustace, born about 1445/6, is also named in the letter.

Elsewhere I find that Joseph Hunter, Rotuli selecti ad res anglicas et hibernicas spectantes (1834): 86 includes a contemporary record dated 24 October 1426, which specifically names Anne and Katherine, minor daughters of John Wogan son and heir of David Wogan knight. This record reads as follows:

Idemq' dns Rex xxiiij. die Octob'r anno quinto [1426] p'dco de assensu d'ci justic' & consilii Regis &c. p xx marc' dno Regi p Ric'm fitz Eustace milit solvend' ad recept' sca'cii Hibn' concessit & vendidit eid'm Ric'o custodiam oim t'ras & ten que fuerunt David Wogan militis vel Joh'is Wogan fil & hered' p'dci David & que p morte p'dci David vel Joh'is & rone minoris etatis Anne Wogan & Kat'ine Wogan filia's & hered' p'dci Joh'is ac consanguineas p'fati David in manib's Regis &c. hend' usq. ad plenum etatem her' p'dict &c. et sic de hered' in hered' &c. que val' p a[nnu]m xl. marc'.

The actual record may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=xY7nXxMMYK8C&pg=PA86

In this record, Anne is named before Katherine, whereas Anne was named after Katherine in an earlier record of their father's estate in 1421.

Lastly, I find there is a short history of the Wogan family published in Notes & Queries 2nd Ser. 5 (1858): 329-330. The author traces the ownership of Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire which was held by Sir John Wogan [died 1321], Justiciar of Ireland, and his successive male heirs, including his great-grandson, John Wogan, Esq. [died 1421], who is stated to have married "Anne, daughter of James Butler, Earl of Ormond." See the following weblink for this material:

http://books.google.com/books?id=y749AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA329

With these new pieces of evidence, additional proof has been adduced to further verify the accuracy of the Wogan pedigrees published by Meyrick. I conclude therefore that the Wogan pedigrees are reliable and can be trusted in their statements that John Wogan [died 1421] married Anne daughter of the Earl of Ormond.

Brad Verity

unread,
Oct 3, 2014, 11:14:12 AM10/3/14
to
On Friday, October 3, 2014 1:56:52 AM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> With these new pieces of evidence, additional proof has been adduced to further verify the accuracy of the Wogan pedigrees published by Meyrick. I conclude therefore that the Wogan pedigrees are reliable and can be trusted in their statements that John Wogan [died 1421] married Anne daughter of the Earl of Ormond.

Very good follow-up research, Douglas. If you could just find something on the Butler of Ormond side to corroborate the Wogan pedigree, you'd have a solid line of descent.

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 6:48:32 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> For further particulars of the life of James le Boteler, 3rd Earl of Ormond [died 1405], interested parties may wish to consult a well documented article concerning him published in Saul, Fourteenth Century England 5 (2008): 94-115. There is also helpful information on James le Boteler, 3rd Earl, found in Butler, Gen. of the Butlers of Ireland 6 (1962): 20-24; 9 (1962): 1, 31-46.

Thank you for pointing out the 2008 article on the 3rd Earl of Ormond - I will add that to my list for my next library visit.

Genealogy of the Butler Family (1962) is the series I had seen at the FHL. I'm assuming there's no mention of an Anne Butler, wife of John Wogan, as a daughter of the 3rd Earl of Ormond, within it. That's a shame. Does it mention any daughters for the 3rd Earl?

All of your corroborating evidence on the Wogan side is useful, but without any evidence on the Butler of Ormond side, it could still turn out that you're chasing a ghost, and an Anne Butler, daughter of the 3rd Earl of Ormond and wife of John Wogan, never existed.

Good luck with your further research on this line - hope you catch the break you need!

Cheers, -----Brad

jhigg...@yahoo.com

unread,
Oct 3, 2014, 8:37:32 PM10/3/14
to
I agree with Brad that further research is needed on the Butler of Ormond side of this descent before the desired royal connection can be assumed to be correct. After all, the Wogan pedigrees collected by Dwnn (and published by Meyrick) are unspecific as to the connection (saying only that Anne was a daughter of an Earl of Ormond), while Bartrum's rendition of the pedigree indicates some uncertainty as to the specifics of the connection. And, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, there at least two versions of the supposed Ormond connection floating around the web. As Brad says, this may yet be a chase for a ghost.

DR kindly provides sources to support a handful of "factlets" in the Dwynn pedigrees of this Wogan family. He then reaches the conclusion that "the first and other pedigrees of the Wogan family published by Meyrick are sound". This is a stunning conclusion, perhaps expected from a very naïve or inexperienced genealogist but not otherwise: Some of the data points in a pedigree are valid, and therefore the others must also be correct. Amazing....

This is particularly important because DR has overlooked the errors of omission in the Dwnn pedigree, including at least the following:

1) Dwnn (and Bartrum following him) says that John Wogan had two daughters, but we know from other sources that there actually were four daughters clearly an error in both Dwnn and Bartrum.

2) Both Dwnn and Bartrum say that Sir David Wogan married Ann Plunket. But DR provides a source saying that the "late wife" of Sir David was named Anastasia, not Ann. Unless DR is going to invoke the convenient argument that these two names were interchangeable at this time, this means that Sir David had a second wife not mentioned by Dwnn or Bartrum. (Bartrum is especially diligent about recording multiple marriages - more so than Dwnn.)

3) OTOH DR uses the fact that John Wogan's surviving wife was named Margaret to postulate that John Wogan had a second wife - if you accept the assumption that he also had Anne Butler as a (1st?) wife. Regardless of whether one believes that Margaret was John's only wife or his 2nd wife, this reflects an omission (and thus an error) in Dwnn and Bartrum.

So, on balance we have three "factlets" from the pedigrees that can be determined from other sources to be correct, and three "factlets" that can be shown to be wrong. Not much of a basis for an argument that the pedigrees are "sound" - and that we should therefore accept the assertion that John Wogan's wife was Anne, daughter of an Earl of Ormond.

With respect to the identification of Margaret the wife of John Wogan, CP vol. 12 pt. 1 p. 6 (sub Slane)says that one possibility is that she was the "eldest da[ughter] of Christopher Preston" who married "one John Wogan" in 1411, but it does not say (as DR does) that this John Wogan was "doubtless" the father of Elizabeth the wife of Christopher Fleming, Lord Slane. The name John was common in the Wogan family at this time, and the possibility of other John Wogans should be investigated (for example, in the various articles on the Wogan family by Francis Green in WWHR and elsewhere). Of pertinence here is DR's statement from a Wikpedia article that in 1453 "a private war erupted between different branches of the Wogan family for possession of [Rathcoffey] Castle." Perhaps one of these branches included a particular John Wogan who married the daughter of Christopher Preston. (OTOH the Wikipedia articles which DR mentions but does not fully cite is not especially helpful on this point - see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathcoffey#History)

cmw1...@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 6, 2014, 10:11:11 AM10/6/14
to
Dear Douglas,

Thank you for your work in reexamining the ancestry of Margaret Fleming, wife of Griffith Bowen, more particularly her Wogan descent. It has been a neglected aspect of her ancestry and much needed. Your research in verifying the Wogan pedigree, published by Meyrick, is most helpful. I applaud your efforts and appreciate the postings you've shared.


Charles Ward
Message has been deleted

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 6, 2014, 4:16:47 PM10/6/14
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

Since my original post on October 1st, I've done additional research on the alleged descent of Margaret (Fleming) Bowen from James le Boteler (or Butler), Knt., 3rd Earl of Ormond by way of her Wogan ancestry. The line is included almost without error in various pedigrees assembled by Lewis Dwnn c.1600, and published by Meyrick in 1846 in his book, Heraldic Visitations of Wales and Part of the Marches between the Years 1586 & 1613. The descent is elsewhere found in family pedigrees published in Peter Bartrum's modern work, Welsh Genealogies, 300-1400.

I believe the reason for the accuracy of this particular set of pedigrees is that the senior line of the Wogan family, namely the Phillips family, were still in possession of Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire (an ancient Wogan family holding), at the time Lewis Dwnn was doing his work. It is likely that the Phillips family provided Lewis Dwnn access to their family muniments and, based on those original documents, he was able to construct a reliable pedigree from Sir David Wogan (died 1417), grandson of Sir John Wogan, Justiciar of Ireland [died 1321], down to the various Welsh co-heirs of the Wogan family.

As an aside, I might note that in 1491, Joan Dwnn, wife of Thomas ap Philip, of Picton [ancestress of the Phillips family], and her sister, Jenet Dwnn, wife of Traharn ap Morgan, of Burton [see Generation 13 below], presented chaplains to the chantry of St. Nicholas (or Wogan's Chapel) in St. David's Cathedral. Reference: Episcopal Regs. of the Diocese of St. Davids 1397 to 1518 2 (Cymmrodorion Rec. Ser. 6) (1917): 624-627, which is available at the following weblink:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002014918545;view=1up;seq=233

In the record of their presentation, it is specifically stated that this chapel had been founded Joan and Jenet's ancestor, John Wogan, Knt., Justiciar of Ireland [died 1321]. So we can be sure that the Phillips family was well aware of their Wogan ancestry.

I've copied below an updated and expanded account of the descent from James le Boteler (or Butler), Knt., 3rd Earl of Ormond, for several generations in the line of descent to Margaret Fleming. I find that the pedigrees prepared by Lewis Dwnn and published by Meyrick stand up well under scrutinity.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + +

9. JAMES LE BOTELER (or BUTLER), Knt., 3rd Earl of Ormond, Chief Governor of Ireland, 1383, 1384-5, 2nd but eldest surviving son and heir, born about 1360 (aged 22 in 1382). In the late 1370s he acted as his father's deputy in the office of Chief Governor of Ireland. He was granted livery of lands 2 March 1383. He was in England to do homage 28 October 1385, and was knighted by the king in Parliament 9 Nov. 1385. He married before 17 June 1386 ANNE WELLES, daughter of John de Welle (or Welles), Knt., 4th Lord Welles, by Maud, daughter of William de Roos (or Ros), Knt., 2nd Lord Roos of Helmsley [see WELLES 9 for her ancestry]. They had two sons, James [4th Earl of Ormond] and Richard, Knt. , and two daughters, Anne and Joan (wife of Teige O'Carroll). By his mistress, Katherine, daughter of Gerald Fitz Maurice, 3rd Earl of Desmond, he had four illegitimate sons, James 'Galdie,' Edmund, Gerald, and Theobald. By an unknown mistress, he had illegitimate sons, Thomas, Knt., and Robert. In 1387 he had license to found a house of Friars Minors at Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire. His wife, Anne, was living 26 June 1397 (date of lease), and died 13 Nov. (year unknown), before 3 Dec. 1399. SIR JAMES LE BOTELER, 3rd Earl of Ormond, died at Gowran 3, 4, 6, or 7 Sept. 1405, and was buried there.

Lodge, Peerage of Ireland 4 (1789): 1-76 (sub Butler, Viscount Mountgarret). Brydges, Collins' Peerage of England 9 (1812): 58-136 (sub Butler, Lord Butler). Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 2 (1847): 4-7. Graves, Roll of the Procs. of the King's Council in Ireland (Rolls Ser. 69) (1877): xv (James le Boteler, Earl of Ormond, styled "kinsman" [consanguinei] by King Richard II of England in 1393), 258-260 ([James le Boteler], Earl of Ormond, styled "trescher et foial cousin" by King Richard II of England in letter dated 1393). Kirby, Wykeham's Reg. 1 (1896): 204-205, 215. Genealogist n.s. 14 (1897): 98. C.P.R. 1381-1385 (1897): 330 (James Botiller, son and heir of James Botiller, late earl of Ormond, styled "kinsman" by King Richard II in 1383). C.P.R. 1385-1389 (1900): 307 (James, Earl of Ormonde, styled "king's kinsman" in 1387). Wrottesley, Peds. from the Plea Rolls (1905): 226. VCH Surrey 3 (1911): 111-121. Duncumb et al., Colls. towards the Hist. & Antiqs. of Hereford 6 (1912): 36-37. VCH Buckingham 3 (1925): 6-7; 4 (1927): 387-392. Misc. Gen. et Heraldica 5th Ser. 8 (1932-34): 229-231. Veale, Great Red Book of Bristol 2 (Bristol Rec. Soc. 4) (1933): 202 (charter of James le Botiller, Earl of Ormond dated 1386). Curtis, Cal. Ormond Deeds 2 (1934): 193 (James Botiller son and heir of James Botiller, lately Earl of Ormond, deceased, styled "dear cousin" by King Richard II in 1383). C.P. 10 (1945): 121-123 (sub Ormond). VCH Warwick 5 (1949): 52-58. VCH Oxford 6 (1959): 134-146. Butler, Gen. of the Butlers of Ireland 6 (1962): 20-24; 9 (1962): 1, 31-46. Moody et al., New Hist. of Ireland 9 (1984): 169 (chart). Given-Wilson, Ill. Hist. of Late Medieval England (1996): chart opp. 61 (temp. King Edward IV). Leese, Blood Royal (1996): 119-122. Saul, Fourteenth Cent. England 5 (2008): 94-115. Worcestershire Rec. Office: Hampton (Pakington) of Westwood Park, Droitwich, Worcestershire, 705:349/12946/492083 -- Lease dated 26 June 1397 from Anne, Countess of Ormond, re. manor of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire (available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).

10. ANNE LE BOTELER (or BUTLER), probably married in 1405 (date of settlement) JOHN WOGAN, of Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire, son and heir of David Wogan, Knt. (died 1417), of Kilka, Balymacloghter, Berton, Carbry, Cliwyn, Dunlost, Maynon, Meon, Okethy, Rathcoffey, and Tristeldermot, Ireland, and Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire, King's knight, by his 1st wife, Anne, daughter of William Plunket, Knt., of Ireland. He was born say 1385. They had four daughters, Elizabeth (wife of Christopher Fleming, Lord Slane), Katherine, Joan, and Anne (wife of Oliver Eustace, Knt.). He married (2nd) in 1411 MARGARET PRESTON, daughter of Christopher Preston. Administration on the manors, lands, etc., in county Kildare, Ireland of JOHN WOGAN was granted 17 April 1421 to John Bellew, Knt., the younger. A subsequent administration on his estate was granted to Richard Fitz Eustace 24 October 1426.

Hollished's Chronicles of England, Scotland & Ireland 6 (1808): 263 ("In the year 1411, marriages were celebrated among the nobilitie in Ireland .... John Wogan matched with the eldest daughter of Christopher Preston."). Ellis, Original Letters illus. of English Hist. 2nd Ser. 1 (1827): 117-124 (letter dated 1454 mentions Anne Wogan, widow of Oliver Eustace, and her son and heir, Edward Eustace, aged 8 years old). Hunter, Rotuli selecti ad res anglicas et hibernicas spectantes (1834): 86. Meyrick, Heraldic Vis. of Wales & Part of the Marches between the Years 1586 & 1613 1 (1846): 21 (Dwnn ped.: "Syr David Wgan a briododd Ann sol aeres Syr William Blwnket o Werddon marchog. ai mab John Wgan o Bicton esgwier a briododd Ann v Iarl Wormond ai verched ac aeressav oeddynt ddwy yr hynaf Katrin gwraid Owain Dwnn o Modlysgwmb Esgwier, ar llal oedd Ann gwraid Syr Olvir Ewstans o Weddon Kt."), 42 (Wogan ped.: "John Wgan off Picton Esqr = ........ merch Iarll Wormed."), 220 (Wogan ped.: "John Wgan o Bicton Esg. = Ann do to Iarll Wermod o Werddon."); 2 (1846): 53. Notes & Queries 2nd Ser. 5 (1858): 329-330. Morris, County Seats of the Noblemen & Gentlemen of Great Britain & Ireland 1 (1866): 21-22. Jour. County Kildare Arch. Soc. 2 (1899): 5-6; 3 (1902): 79-97. Allen, Notes on the Sheriffs of Pembrokeshire, 1541-1899 (1900): 3-4. Owen, Old Pembroke Fams. in the Ancient County Palatine of Pembroke (1902): 35-45 ("David [Wogan], like his predecessors, had large possessions in Ireland, and in 1408 had a licence to ship four weighs of wheat to his castle in Wales. David had two sons: John, whose daughter Katherine brought Picton to Owen Donn, whose grand-daughter Jane brought it to Thomas Phillips of Cilsant; and Thomas, the ancestor of the Wogans of Rathcoffy, in co. Kildare."). West Wales Hist. Recs. 6 (1916): 169-232. C.P. 12(1) (1953): 6, note g (sub Slane). Bartrum, Welsh Gens. 300-1400 3 (1980): 164 [Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2: "John [Wogan] d. before 1420 = Ann d. James Butler Earl of Ormond"].

11. KATHERINE WOGAN, daughter and co-heiress, born say 1410 (minor in 1422 and 1426). She married (1st) after 24 October 1426 (as his 2nd wife) HARRY WOGAN, Knt., of Boulston, Pembrokeshire. They had no issue. SIR HARRY WOGAN was living in 1434. His widow, Katherine, married (2nd) before 25 June 1435 (date of bond) OWAIN DWNN (or DONNE) (also known as OWAIN AP MAREDUDD), of Modlyscwm (or Muddlescombe) (in Kidwelly), Carmarthenshire, son of Maredudd ap Harry Dwnn (or Donne), Esq., by Mallt, daughter of Gruffudd ap Cadwgan Fychan. They had two sons, Harry, Esq., and Etifedd, and two daughters, Janet (or Jenet) (wife of John Einion Hen) and Jane (wife of Harry ap Harry Wogan). In 1435 he was engaged in military service in the retinue of Sir John Talbot, later Earl of Shrewsbury. On 25 June 1435 he was bound over in the sum of £100 at the Carmarthenshire sessions to bring before Easter next a discharge of his liability to the king for having married without license. On 27 May 1438 he complained to the king that he had sued the council for his discharge but could not get an answer before Easter 1436 as required; as such, he had been arrested and his bond declared forfeit. On 27 Nov. 1438 a commission was appointed to enquire into the matter. The ensuing investigation showed that his wife was not an heiress of lands held in chief of the king, and thus he was exonerated. In 1437 he petitioned Parliament for letters of denizenship for himself and his heirs. In 1442-3 he was described as a burgess of Kidwelly. He was granted property in the lordship of Kidwelly in 1444 and 1445, after which he described himself as lord of Muddlescombe. He and his brother-in-law, Gruffydd ap Nicholas, held a tourney at Carreg Cennen in 1446; they were subsequently imprisoned in 1447 as followers of Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester. In 1448 he stood as pledge for the appearance of Hopkyn ap Rhys ap Hopkyn at the justiciar's tourn the next year. OWAIN DWNN died in 1460.

Hunter, Rotuli selecti ad res anglicas et hibernicas spectantes (1834): 86. Meyrick, Heraldic Vis. of Wales & Part of the Marches between the Years 1586 & 1613 1 (1846): xxvi (Dwnn ped.: "Owen Dwnn of Molyscwm = Cath. Lady Wgan d. & h. of J. Wgan of Picton Co. of Pembroke Esq"), 21 (Dwnn ped.: "Weithian Plant Owain Dwnn of wolyscwmb ap Mredydd ap Henri Dwnn esgwier o Gatrin arglwyddes Wgan o Bwlston yr hon oedd v aghaeres i John Wgan o Bicton esgwier ap Syr David Wgan o Bicton ... Syr David Wgan a briododd Ann sol aeres Syr Wiliam Blwnket o Werddon marchog. ai mab John Wgan o Bicton esgwier a briododd Ann v. Iarl Wormond ai verched ac aeressav oeddynt ddwy yr hynaf Katrin gwraif Owain Dwnn o Modlygwmb Esgwier, ar llal oedd Ann gwaig Syr Olvir Ewstans o Werddon Kt."), 42 (Wogan ped.: "Katrin [Wogan] = Owain Dwnn o Mwdlesgwm."), 220 (Wogan ped.: "Katrin Wgan koaeres = Owain Dwnn off Modlysgomb Esg"); 2 (1846): 53 ("Owain Donne, his wyf was Kattrin doughter and heir to John Wogan."). Notes & Queries 2nd Ser. 5 (1858): 329-330. Morris, County Seats of the Noblemen & Gentlemen of Great Britain & Ireland 1 (1866): 21-22. Allen, Notes on the Sheriffs of Pembrokeshire, 1541-1899 (1900): 3-4. C.P.R. 1436-1441 (1907): 200. West Wales Hist. Recs. 6 (1916): 169-232. Bartrum, Welsh Gens. 300-1400 3 (1980): 164 [Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2: "Sir Harry Wogan of Boulston (1) = Dame Margaret Dyer, (2) = Catherine f. John Wogan"]; 8 (1980): 616 [Llywelyn ap Gwrgan 2: "Owain Dwnn, c. 1400-1460, of Modlyscwm = Catrin f. John Wogan of Picton"]. Griffiths, King & Country (1991): 203.

12. HARRY AB OWAIN DWNN (or DON), Esq., of Picton, Pembrokeshire, Escheator and Sheriff of Pembroke, 1457, son and heir. He married MARGARET WOGAN, daughter of Henry Wogan, Knt., of Wiston, by his 1st wife, Margaret, daughter of William Thomas, Knt., of Raglan. They had one son, William, and two daughters, Joan (wife of Thomas ap Philip ap Maredudd, Knt.) and Jenet (or Jonet). HARRY DWNN, Esq., was killed at the Battle of Banbury 26 July 1469. Sometime in the period, 1471-93, Henry Vernon, Esq., petitioned Edward, Prince of Wales, stating that after his father's death in 1467, Harry Dwnn of Picton had seised his manors and lordships of Llandore, Llandeilo, and Casteltegh, Carmarthenshire by great force. Following Dwnn's death in 1469, an inquisition found that Dwnn had died seised and that William Dwnn was his minor son and heir, by reason of which the manors and lordships were seized into the prince's hands. Vernon requested that the prince examine his title, and, on his proof of title being showed, he be restored in possession.

Meyrick, Heraldic Vis. of Wales & Part of the Marches between the Years 1586 & 1613 1 (1846): 21 (Dwnn ped.: "Plant Owain Dwnn o Mwlysgwmb a Chadring Wgan, Harri Dwnn o Bicton esgwier a briododd Marged Wgan v. Syr Harri Wgan o Gastell Gwys marchog ... Plant Harri Dwnn o Bicton ddwy verched aeressav tir oeddynt: yr hynaf oedd Sioned Dwnn, Jan yr iangaf gwraig Syr Tomas Ffylips Knt."), 220 (Wogan ped.: "Harri Dwnn off Picton Esg. = Marged v. Syr Harri Wgan o Wys o Jan v Syr William Tomas"); 2 (1846): 53 ("Henry Donne of Pickton, his [wyf] was Margret doughter to Sr Harry Wogan."), 55 (Wogan ped.: "Margrett doughter to Sr Harry Wogan maried Henry Donne of Picton."). Notes & Queries 2nd Ser. 5 (1858): 329-330. West Wales Hist. Recs. 6 (1916): 169-232. Evans, Wales & the War of the Roses (1963): 184. Bartrum, Welsh Gens. 300-1400 3 (1980): 165 [Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2(A1): "Margred [Wogan] = Harry ab Owain Dwnn"]; 8 (1980): 616 [Llywelyn ap Gwrgan 2: "Harry Dwnn of Picton, d. 1469 = Marg. f. Sir Henry Wogan of Wiston"). Breverton, Jasper Tudor (2014). National Archives, SC 8/344/E1314 (available at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).

13. JENET (or JONET) DWNN. She was co-heiress before 1491 to her brother, William Dwnn. She married about 27 October 1491 (date of presentation) TREHARNE (or TRAHARN, TRAHAERN, TRAHAIARN) AP MORGAN AP JENKIN, Esq., of Burton, Pembrokshire, and, in right of his wife, of Modlyscwm (or Muddlescombe) (in Kidwelly), Carmarthenshire, High Steward of the Commotes of Kidwelly, Steward of Pembroke, son and heir of Morgan ap Jankyn ap Philip, of Langston. They had three sons, Harry, Owain (of Llandilo-Abercowyn), and Anthony, and four daughters, Elizabeth (or Isabel) (wife of Robert ap Griffith, Esq.), Sysley, Anne, and Katherine (wife of Henry Barrett). Upon the accession of King Henry VII in 1485, he became chancellor of Glamorgan with a fee of £20 a year. In October 1491 Jenet's sister, Joan, wife of Thomas ap Philip, of Picton, presented a chaplain to the chantry of St. Nicholas (or Wogan's Chapel) in St. David's Cathedral, which chantry was founded by their ancestor, John Wogan, Knt. [died 1321]; the same month Traharn ap Morgan and Jenet his wife, of the parish of Burton, Pembrokshire, presented another chaplain to the same chapel. He built the house of Llandilo-Abercowyn. In 1502 he served as an arbitrator in a dispute between William Perrot, Knt., and John Waryn, Gent. In 1519 he and Thomas Wogan, clerk, conveyed to John Wogan, Knt., of Wiston, and Joan his wife the third part of the commote of Generglyn, Cardiganshire.

Meyrick, Heraldic Vis. of Wales & Part of the Marches between the Years 1586 & 1613 1 (1846): 21 (Dwnn ped.: "Plant Owain Dwnn o Mwlysgwmb a Chadring Wgan, Harri Dwnn o Bicton esgwier a briododd Marged Wgan v. Syr Harri Wgan o Gastell Gwys marchog ... Plant Harri Dwnn o Bicton ddwy verched aeressav tir oeddynt: yr hynaf oedd Sioned Dwnn, Jan yr iangaf gwraig Syr Tomas Ffylips Knt."), 220 (Wogan ped.: "Sioned [Dwnn] gwraig Tryhairn Morgan Esgwier .... Sioned (yr hynaf) gwraig Tryhaiarn ap Morgan ap Jankin ap Ffylip o Went Esgwier; ai fflant o hono ydoedd 3 mab 4 merched: nid amgen: y mab hynaf Harri Morgan o Wlysgwmb Esgwier; Owain Morgan o Landeilo Aberkowyn gent; Antony Morgan y 3 vab a iangaf oedd; y merched Elsbeth gwraig Robert ap Gruffh ap David ap Einion; Syssyl gwraig James Tomas o Sliwch wrth Aberhonddi, y 3 Ann gwraig Rhys Ryd ap Nicklas Ryd esgwier, 4 Katrin gwraig Wiliam Barett ap Harri Barrett o Benn Deyn Esgwier."), 220 (Wogan ped.: "Sioned [Dwnn] gwraig Tryhaiarn Morgan Esgwier"); 2 (1846): 49 ("Gwraig Trahaern Morgan oedd Sioned vh Henry Dwn"), 53 ("Trehaern ab Morgan, his wyf was Margrett doughter and heir to Henry Donn o Picton. Isbell his daughter maried to Robert ab Grh."). Notes & Queries 2nd Ser. 5 (1858): 329-330. Arch. Cambrensis 3rd Ser. 11 (1865): 29. Nicholas, Annals & Antiqs. of the Counties & County Families of Wales 1 (1872): 267-268. D.N.B. 39 (1894): 22 (biog. of John Morgan, Bishop of St. Davids). West Wales Hist. Recs. 2 (1912): 7 (Morgan ped.: "Traharn Morgan Esqr. m. as in tit. Muddlescombe"); 6 (1916): 169-232. Jones, Hist. of Kidwelly (1908): 84. Evans, Wales & the War of the Roses (1915): 217 ("Trahaiarn Morgan, 'skilled and qualified in the laws of England'"). Episcopal Regs. of the Diocese of St. Davids 1397 to 1518 2 (Cymmrodorion Rec. Ser. 6) (1917): 624-627. B.G. Charles, Bronwydd MSS & Recs. (Group II), National Library of Wales (deposited 1952): #2392 (exemplification of a recovery dated 14 July 1519 between Thomas Wogan, clerk, and Treharne ap Morgan, esq., plaintiffs, and John Wogan, of Wiston, knight, and Joan his wife, tenants), 2394 (grant dated 22 July 1519 by Thomas Wogan, clerk, and Traharn ap Morgan, esq. to John Wogan of Wiston, knight, and Joan his wife). Hughes, Jottings & Hist. Recs. on the Hist. of South Pembrokeshire 3 (2000).

jhigg...@yahoo.com

unread,
Oct 7, 2014, 2:06:34 PM10/7/14
to
On Monday, October 6, 2014 1:16:47 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
>
>
> Since my original post on October 1st, I've done additional research on the alleged descent of Margaret (Fleming) Bowen from James le Boteler (or Butler), Knt., 3rd Earl of Ormond by way of her Wogan ancestry. The line is included almost without error in various pedigrees assembled by Lewis Dwnn c.1600, and published by Meyrick in 1846 in his book, Heraldic Visitations of Wales and Part of the Marches between the Years 1586 & 1613. The descent is elsewhere found in family pedigrees published in Peter Bartrum's modern work, Welsh Genealogies, 300-1400.
>
>
>
> I believe the reason for the accuracy of this particular set of pedigrees is that the senior line of the Wogan family, namely the Phillips family, were still in possession of Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire (an ancient Wogan family holding), at the time Lewis Dwnn was doing his work. It is likely that the Phillips family provided Lewis Dwnn access to their family muniments and, based on those original documents, he was able to construct a reliable pedigree from Sir David Wogan (died 1417), grandson of Sir John Wogan, Justiciar of Ireland [died 1321], down to the various Welsh co-heirs of the Wogan family.
>
>
>
> As an aside, I might note that in 1491, Joan Dwnn, wife of Thomas ap Philip, of Picton [ancestress of the Phillips family], and her sister, Jenet Dwnn, wife of Traharn ap Morgan, of Burton [see Generation 13 below], presented chaplains to the chantry of St. Nicholas (or Wogan's Chapel) in St. David's Cathedral. Reference: Episcopal Regs. of the Diocese of St. Davids 1397 to 1518 2 (Cymmrodorion Rec. Ser. 6) (1917): 624-627, which is available at the following weblink:
>
>
>
> http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002014918545;view=1up;seq=233
>
>
>
> In the record of their presentation, it is specifically stated that this chapel had been founded Joan and Jenet's ancestor, John Wogan, Knt., Justiciar of Ireland [died 1321]. So we can be sure that the Phillips family was well aware of their Wogan ancestry.
>
>
>
> I've copied below an updated and expanded account of the descent from James le Boteler (or Butler), Knt., 3rd Earl of Ormond, for several generations in the line of descent to Margaret Fleming. I find that the pedigrees prepared by Lewis Dwnn and published by Meyrick stand up well under scrutinity.
>
>
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

This post adds no further evidence to support the assertion, based solely on Dwnn's pedigrees of the Wogan family, that John Wogan married a daughter of an (unnamed) Earl of Ormond. If DR feels that Dwnn's pedigrees "stand up well under scrutinity" [sic], he clearly has overlooked - or chosen to ignore - the most glaring error in these pedigrees, which was noted over a century ago by the Welsh genealogist Francis Green and accepted by subsequent authorities. Dwnn states an ancestry for the Wogans of Picton which cannot be supported, as well as a relationship with the Wogans of Wiston and Boulston which also cannot be supported. Since Dwnn has got these important matters wrong, there is no reason to accept without further support other statements in his pedigrees of the Wogans.

Both ODNB and the Dictionary of Welsh Biography have articles on Sir John Wogan of Picton (d. 1321/2), Justiciar of Ireland, ancestor of the subsequent Wogans of Picton. ONB says "His precise ancestry is unclear and the details of his marriages and family are difficult to disentangle", while DWB says "There is complete uncertainty about his parentage and early life". This is in contradiction to Dwnn's pedigree of the Wogans, specifically on p. 42 of vol. 1 of the Meyrick edition. Bartrum, to his credit, recognizes these errors in Dwnn and does not provide any ancestry for Sir John Wogan the Justiciar, nor does he show Dwnn's erroneous links between the Wogans of Picton and the other two families.

Francis Green, in his 1916 WWHR article cited earlier in this thread (and available via the Internet Archive), discusses this at greater length. He says flatly "Of the parentage of Sir John Wogan, justiciary of Ireland, nothing is known". He also says "So far as can be judged from existing records, the earliest generations of the Picton branch of the family [in the Dwnn pedigree] are hopelessly wrong, and the same remark applies to the first few generations of the Wiston sept." Finally he says that "There can be no doubt that the first ancestor of the former branch [Wiston] must have been a near relative of the justiciary of Ireland [of the Picton branch], but evidence is altogether lacking to prove the exact connection."

The point here is that there are significant errors in Dwnn's pedigree of the Wogans. Thus it would be unwise in the extreme to blindly accept without further verification any statements in that pedigree, especially since other statements have been shown to be wrong. This is particularly true for the statement regarding the Ormond marriage, which has already been shown to be inaccurate because it fails to take note of the fact that John Wogan is known to have married a woman named Margaret. The fact that the Wogan marriage and the particular Buter daughter are not mentioned in accounts of the family are not mentioned in accounts of the family of Butler of Ormond is simply further reason to discredit this misguided attempt to construct a royal descent via this dubious connection.

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 7, 2014, 2:53:10 PM10/7/14
to
<On Tuesday, October 7, 2014 12:06:34 PM UTC-6, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:

<This post adds no further evidence to support the assertion, based solely on <Dwnn's pedigrees of the Wogan family, that John Wogan married a daughter of an <(unnamed) Earl of Ormond. If DR feels that Dwnn's pedigrees "stand up well <under scrutinity" [sic], he clearly has overlooked - or chosen to ignore - the <most glaring error in these pedigrees, which was noted over a century ago by <the Welsh genealogist Francis Green and accepted by subsequent authorities.

You're seriously overstating the situation (a common practice for you). The marriage of John Wogan and Anne Butler has been accepted by several historians, most recently by Peter Bartrum, who consulted Francis Green [West Wales Hist. Recs. 6 (1916): 169-232]. He obviously didn't follow Green, nor do I.

In this thread, I presented concrete evidence which proved the generations I addressed.

Your opinion is trumped by the evidence. This line is sound.

jhigg...@yahoo.com

unread,
Oct 7, 2014, 4:37:24 PM10/7/14
to
I disagree. This line is NOT sound, and the so-called "evidence" is just a pastiche of conjectures. That of course "is common practice for you", as is clear from numerous previous occasions which are well documented in the archives of this group.

The old tale of "the emperor's new clothes" seems appropriate here. But I'll leave it at that.

Kevan Barton via

unread,
Oct 7, 2014, 7:08:28 PM10/7/14
to jhigginsgen, gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com, Douglas Richardson
Though I don't want to get involved in the merits of this case whether
Douglas has or has not proven his case (though it makes sense); quoting
lines as a rebuttal like,

"There is complete uncertainty about his parentage and early life", or

"Of the parentage of Sir John Wogan, justiciary of Ireland, nothing is
known", or

"...., but evidence is altogether lacking to prove the exact connection"
proves absolutely nothing and is very much a straw man argument. They mean
something to the person who spoke them at the time they spoke them. Would
any genealogist worth their snuff ever assume that a 19th century, let alone
an early 20th century researcher, had at their disposal all documents that
related to a topic? I don't think those that said the above would think
so - these quotes really say, "I am uncertain about his parentage, I know
nothing as to the parentage of....., and my evidence is lacking to prove the
exact connection." They speak for no one else and only reflect the hard
time they had in resolving the question - they would not mean for others to
not follow in their footsteps.

My hat's off to Douglas and appreciate him continually kicking the door down
one clue at a time. And, to all those that do likewise.

Cheers,
Kevan
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 8, 2014, 3:36:17 AM10/8/14
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

It appears that Anne Wogan, daughter of John Wogan [died 1421] and his wife, Anne Butler, had a second husband, Sir Robert Dowdall [died 1482], King's Serjeant-at-law, Chief Justice of the Common Bench in Ireland.

Anne Wogan's second marriage is mentioned in a short biography of Sir Robert Dowdall published in Bell, The Judges in Ireland, 1221-1921, published 1926, pp. 177-178.

Regarding their marriage, the following information is provided:

"[He] married Anne Wogan, daughter and co-heiress of John Wogan of Rathcoffy in co. Kildare, then a widow 1454."

Unfortunately no source is provided for the marriage. However, in a more recent work, Kenny, Anglo-Irish and Gaelic women in Ireland, c.1170-1540, published in 2007, page 157, the following mention of a lawsuit dated 1455 refers to Anne Dowdall and her former possession of the castle and manor of Rathcoffey:

"Therefore, apart from appearing in court as the prepetrators and abettors of crimes, widows also found themselves there as victims. For instance in 1455, Anne Dowdall who was represented in court by her second husband, Robert, claimed that previously as a widow she had held the castle and manor of Rathcoffey on which she held various cows, sheep and pigs to the value of 300 marks."

Since we know that Anne Wogan, widow of Oliver Eustace, was dispossessed of Rathcoffey Castle in 1454 (the previous year), it seems obvious that she is identical to Anne, wife of Robert Dowdall, who stated in 1455 that as a widow she had held the castle and manor of Rathcoffey.

Wikipedia has a helpful biography of Sir Robert Dowdall, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dowdall

It states that he married "Anne Wogan of Rathcoffey, County Kildare, in 1454." No documentation is provided.

The biography further states that Sir Robert Dowdall and his wife, Anne Wogan, had at least one son, Thomas Dowdall, Master of the Rolls in Ireland. However, Anne Wogan can not possibly be Thomas Dowdall's mother, as he was reportedly was studying law at Lincoln's Inn in 1459, a mere five years after his father married her.

While Anne Wogan was not the mother of Thomas Dowdall, we at least learn from the 1455 lawsuit that she held the castle and manor of Rathcoffey in co. Kildare. This means that the Wogan family had at least three castles, not two as I stated in an earlier message. The three castles were Rathcoffey, co. Kildare, Kilka (or Kilkea), co. Kildare, and Picton, Pembrokeshire.

Brad Verity

unread,
Oct 8, 2014, 1:43:51 PM10/8/14
to
On Tuesday, October 7, 2014 11:53:10 AM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> You're seriously overstating the situation (a common practice for you).

Well, isn't this the pot calling the kettle black.

> The marriage of John Wogan and Anne Butler has been accepted by several historians,

Which historians, specifically?

> most recently by Peter Bartrum, who consulted Francis Green [West Wales Hist. Recs. 6 (1916): 169-232]. He obviously didn't follow Green, nor do I.

Here's a link to the relevant page from Francis Green:
https://archive.org/stream/westwaleshistori06hist#page/186/mode/2up
"Of the career of John Wogan (son and heir of Sir David Wogan) little is known, except that he was an esquire, and that his wife's name was Margaret."

Bartrum had expertise in Welsh, not Irish, genealogy. I'm assuming it's a working copy of his Wogan pedigree that you linked to here:
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5373/bleddyn%20ap%20maenyrch%202.png?sequence=1

It shows Bartrum had some confusion as to the correct first name of the earl of Ormonde. Since Green didn't identify John Wogan's wife beyond her first name of Margaret, Bartrum had a blank space to fill in, and chose to accept the Welsh pedigrees he was working from, making her a daughter of the earl of Ormonde, then apparently had difficulty trying to determine which earl was her father, settling on James, which at least works chronologically.

Bartrum doesn't seem to have researched this at all beyond reading Green's article. He certainly didn't look at the original Irish Patent Roll entry Green cites as his source, probably because Green doesn't cite a specific page. But it is a bit disheartening that Bartrum chose to leave off of his pedigree two of John Wogan's four daughters, especially as Green cites a primary source (Irish Patent Rolls) for their existence.

Bartrum in 1980 choosing to favour the c.1600 Welsh pedigrees of Dwnn as to the wife (Bartrum gives her the first name 'Ann', not 'Margaret') and daughters of John Wogan, over the 1919 Wogan account of Green, who cites primary record evidence, is an indication of sloppiness on Bartrum's part, and indicates to me that he was out of his element in dealing with these generations of Wogans.

You, however, Douglas, did track down the Irish Patent Roll entry mentioned by Green as his source, and that is commendably solid follow-up research, and shared it with the newsgroup, which is generous. Here it is:

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 6:48:32 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Since my original post on the Wogan family, I've had the opportunity to check an Irish source, Rotulorum Patentium et Clausorum Cancellariae Hiberniae Calendarium, Volume 1, Part I, published in 1828. This book contains a variety of documents pertaining to Irish families in the period from King Henry II to King Henry VII.
> On page 219, the following document is found which pertains to the administration of the estate of John Wogan, son and heir of David Wogan, knight, dated 1421.
> Date: 17 April 1421.
> "R. p. eo qd. oia. man'ia. tre. &c. qua fuer' Johis f' & her' David Wogan militis in co. Kild', que in man' Rs, rone min' etat' Eliz'e, Kat'ine, Johe & Agnetis filiar' & hedu' dci Johis, exist', in frontura marchiar' Hibnicor'inim' sita & p ip'os pene destructa sunt, de assensu &c. p m'capco'em Johis f. Rob'ti Burnell de Dub' & Pat' Penkeston de co' Kild', comis' Johi Bellewe mil' jun' custod' oi'm dcor' man'ior' &c., hend' dur' bpito, (dotib' Anastacie nup ux dci Dav', & Marga'te nup ux' dci Johis f' Dav', exceptis,) reddend' extent'. Dub', 17 Ap."

> The above record indicates that the manors, lands, etc. in county Kildare which formerly belonged to John son and heir of David Wogan knight were granted to John Bellewe, knight, the younger, during the minority of Elizabeth, Katherine, Joan, and Agnes, daughters and heirs of the said John. The dowers of Anastasie late wife of the said David Wogan and Margaret late the wife of John son of David Wogan were excepted.

Yes.

> The above record proves that John Wogan survived his father, Sir David Wogan, who died in 1417.

I'm not sure about this. It proves he was dead by April 1421. But I'm not familiar enough with abbreviated Latin legalese to determine if this April 1421 grant was done very soon after John Wogan's death, or changing custody of his lands some years after it.

>This record also tells us that John Wogan was survived by a widow, Margaret, and four daughters, Elizabeth, Katherine, Joan, and Agnes.

Yes, and the four daughters were minors, so all under the age of sixteen in April 1421.

> As Mr. Higgins has kindly pointed out, Complete Peerage 12(1) (1953): 6, note g (sub Slane) indicates that John Wogan's eldest daughter and heiress, Elizabeth Wogan, was married by papal dispensation dated 11 May 1422 to Christopher Fleming, Lord Slane, son and heir of Thomas Fleming, Lord Slane, by Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Preston, Knt., by his 1st wife, Margaret, daughter of Walter de Bermingham, Knt., of Castle Carbury, co. Kildare, Chief Governor of Ireland. The dispensation for this marriage is found in Cal. of Entries in the Papal Registers: Papal Letters, 1417-1431, pg. 221, which indicates that Elizabeth Wogan and Christopher Fleming were related in the 3rd and 4th degrees of affinity.

As this was not published by Complete Peerage until 1953, clearly Francis Green was unaware of this Fleming/Wogan marriage when he wrote his Wogan article in 1919, as he assigns no husband to eldest daughter Elizabeth Wogan. Nor does Bartrum appear to have picked up on it, as he omits Elizabeth Wogan altogether from his 1980 pedigree. Further evidence that Bartrum did not do much independent research on these Wogan generations, and cannot be viewed as a "historian", but rather (at least in this case) as merely a genealogist repeating earlier pedigrees.

Here is the exact papal register entry:
"1422...5 Id. May. St. Peter's, Rome. To the archbishop of Armagh. Mandate to dispense Christopher Flemyng, donsel, and Elizabeth Wogan, damsel, of the diocese of Meath (Minden.), to marry notwithstanding that they are related in the third and fourth degrees of affinity. Edward, bishop of Meath, who ought to have been written to. is at present absent (in remotis agat). Oblate nobis. (f.92)"

> The degrees of affinity mean that Elizabeth Wogan was a second cousin once removed to Christopher Fleming's first wife, Levita, daughter of Martin Ferrers, of Bere Ferrers, Devon.

I know nothing about Martin Ferrers of Bere Ferrers, but shouldn't you be looking into him, his wife and their families, if you feel the daughter of John Wogan was related to him?

> Assuming that Elizabeth Wogan was approximately aged 15 at the time of he marriage, this would place her birth as about 1407.

We know she was still a minor (under 16) the year previous, in April 1421.

> Complete Peerage 12(1) (1953): 6, note g (sub Slane) notes that a John Wogan (doubtless Elizabeth's father) is recorded by Hollinshed as having married in 1411 to the eldest daughter of Christopher Preston. The record in Hollinshed is attributed by Complete Peerage as being in Hollinshed, Chronicle of Ireland, p. 75. However, I found the marriage recorded in Hollished's Chronicles of England, Scotland & Ireland 6 (1808): 263. It reads as follows:
> "In the year 1411, marriages were celebrated among the nobilitie in Ireland .... John Wogan matched with the eldest daughter of Christopher Preston." END OF QUOTE.

Great. Nice work going to the original chronicle source.

Ummm, why is there no corresponding mention of John Wogan's marriage to a daughter (or sister, if the marriage took place after the earl's 1405 death) of the earl of Ormonde, in an Irish chronicle? That would have been an even more prestigious match...

> I assume the Preston woman named in this record was John Wogan's surviving wife, Margaret, and that she was named for her paternal grandmother, Margaret de Bermingham [died 1361], wife of Sir Robert Preston, knight.

OK, very reasonable.

> If correct, then Elizabeth Wogan's step-mother, Margaret Preston, would have been the first cousin of her husband, Christopher Fleming, Lord Slane. Since the papal dispensation makes no mention of Elizabeth Wogan and Christopher Fleming themselves being related in the 2nd degree, it seems clear that Margaret Preston was not the mother of Elizabeth Wogan.

Agreed. Nice deductive work.

> We can be certain of this for another reason as Elizabeth Wogan was born c.1407, whereas John Wogan did not marry Margaret Preston until 1411.

You are on shakier ground here. We only know that Elizabeth was under age 16 in April 1421, you are only guessing that she was about age 15 when the papal dispensation was granted the next year. Marriage dispensations could be granted for children of any age, even infants. She is described as "damsel" in the dispensation. I don't know if an age can be determined from that descriptor.

> This means, of course, that John Wogan [died 1421] must have had two wives, and that his surviving wife, Margaret Preston, was a later wife.

It would appear to be the case that Elizabeth Wogan and her husband Christopher Fleming were not related by blood. *IF* all of the parentage CP assumed for Christopher Fleming, and for Margaret Preston Wogan, is accurate, then yes, Margaret Preston could not have been the mother of Elizabeth Wogan.

This is as far as you have gone, Douglas. You have shown using a contemporary 15th-century record (the 1422 marriage dispensation) that the eldest (and only the eldest) daughter of John Wogan, namely Elizabeth, can not have been descended from the daughter of Christopher Preston whom the chronicle reports was married to John Wogan in 1411.

Because of this, you have opened the possibility that John Wogan had a previous wife to Margaret Preston. You are now making a tremendous leap that the previous wife was a daughter of the 3rd earl of Ormonde, with only a pedigree from about 1600 to back you up.

You have not found a single piece of corroborating evidence, that pre-dates 1600, that James, the third earl of Ormonde, had any daughter at all, let alone one named Anne married to John Wogan.

You presented your compiled data on the 3rd Earl of Ormonde and his family:
> 9. JAMES LE BOTELER (or BUTLER), Knt., 3rd Earl of Ormond, Chief Governor of Ireland, 1383, 1384-5, 2nd but eldest surviving son and heir, born about 1360 (aged 22 in 1382). In the late 1370s he acted as his father's deputy in the office of Chief Governor of Ireland. He was granted livery of lands 2 March 1383. He was in England to do homage 28 October 1385, and was knighted by the king in Parliament 9 Nov. 1385. He married before 17 June 1386 ANNE WELLES, daughter of John de Welle (or Welles), Knt., 4th Lord Welles, by Maud, daughter of William de Roos (or Ros), Knt., 2nd Lord Roos of Helmsley [see WELLES 9 for her ancestry]. They had two sons, James [4th Earl of Ormond] and Richard, Knt. , and two daughters, Anne and Joan (wife of Teige O'Carroll). By his mistress, Katherine, daughter of Gerald Fitz Maurice, 3rd Earl of Desmond, he had four illegitimate sons, James 'Galdie,' Edmund, Gerald, and Theobald. By an unknown mistress, he had illegitimate sons, Thomas, Knt., and Robert. In 1387 he had license to found a house of Friars Minors at Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire. His wife, Anne, was living 26 June 1397 (date of lease), and died 13 Nov. (year unknown), before 3 Dec. 1399. SIR JAMES LE BOTELER, 3rd Earl of Ormond, died at Gowran 3, 4, 6, or 7 Sept. 1405, and was buried there.
>
> Lodge, Peerage of Ireland 4 (1789): 1-76 (sub Butler, Viscount Mountgarret). Brydges, Collins' Peerage of England 9 (1812): 58-136 (sub Butler, Lord Butler). Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 2 (1847): 4-7. Graves, Roll of the Procs. of the King's Council in Ireland (Rolls Ser. 69) (1877): xv (James le Boteler, Earl of Ormond, styled "kinsman" [consanguinei] by King Richard II of England in 1393), 258-260 ([James le Boteler], Earl of Ormond, styled "trescher et foial cousin" by King Richard II of England in letter dated 1393). Kirby, Wykeham's Reg. 1 (1896): 204-205, 215. Genealogist n.s. 14 (1897): 98. C.P.R. 1381-1385 (1897): 330 (James Botiller, son and heir of James Botiller, late earl of Ormond, styled "kinsman" by King Richard II in 1383). C.P.R. 1385-1389 (1900): 307 (James, Earl of Ormonde, styled "king's kinsman" in 1387). Wrottesley, Peds. from the Plea Rolls (1905): 226. VCH Surrey 3 (1911): 111-121. Duncumb et al., Colls. towards the Hist. & Antiqs. of Hereford 6 (1912): 36-37. VCH Buckingham 3 (1925): 6-7; 4 (1927): 387-392. Misc. Gen. et Heraldica 5th Ser. 8 (1932-34): 229-231. Veale, Great Red Book of Bristol 2 (Bristol Rec. Soc. 4) (1933): 202 (charter of James le Botiller, Earl of Ormond dated 1386). Curtis, Cal. Ormond Deeds 2 (1934): 193 (James Botiller son and heir of James Botiller, lately Earl of Ormond, deceased, styled "dear cousin" by King Richard II in 1383). C.P. 10 (1945): 121-123 (sub Ormond). VCH Warwick 5 (1949): 52-58. VCH Oxford 6 (1959): 134-146. Butler, Gen. of the Butlers of Ireland 6 (1962): 20-24; 9 (1962): 1, 31-46. Moody et al., New Hist. of Ireland 9 (1984): 169 (chart). Given-Wilson, Ill. Hist. of Late Medieval England (1996): chart opp. 61 (temp. King Edward IV). Leese, Blood Royal (1996): 119-122. Saul, Fourteenth Cent. England 5 (2008): 94-115. Worcestershire Rec. Office: Hampton (Pakington) of Westwood Park, Droitwich, Worcestershire, 705:349/12946/492083 -- Lease dated 26 June 1397 from Anne, Countess of Ormond, re. manor of Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire (available at www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp).

Of the 24 separate sources you cite as support for your account, *not a single one of them* states that he had a daughter Anne, wife of John Wogan. Wow, not a single one. Not CP, not Collins's Peerage, not Lodge's Peerage of Ireland, not a single one of those 24 sources makes mention of a daughter married to John Wogan. What? Did the Butlers of Ormonde forget all about it?

By the way, the daughter "Joan (wife of Teige O'Carroll)" you also give to the 3rd Earl of Ormonde and Anne Welles above, is an error. Teige O'Carroll married Joan Butler, daughter of the 2nd (not the 3rd) Earl of Ormonde:
http://books.google.ca/books?ei=XGw1VMTVMoHloATixIK4BA&id=tQGFAAAAIAAJ&dq=Teige+O%27Carroll+married+Joan+Butler&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Joan+Butler

Joan, no doubt named for her maternal grandmother Joan de Burgh, Lady Darcy, apparently died of the plague in 1383, so it is chronologically impossible for her to have been the daughter of the 3rd Earl of Ormonde and Anne Welles:
http://books.google.ca/books?ei=d201VMWgCtbkoATF14KABw&id=mlgyAQAAMAAJ&dq=Joan+Butler+O%27Carroll+1383&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Joan+Butler+1383

> While it is possible that Anne, wife of John Wogan, might be an illegitimate daughter of James le Boteler, 3rd Earl of Ormond, I believe the fact that John Wogan's father, Sir David Wogan, was styled a nobleman and that he held extensive estates, including two castles, negates against that idea. Sir David Wogan would have been in a position socially to have married his son and heir, John Wogan, to a legitimate daughter of James, 3rd Earl of Ormond.

This argument of yours then begs the question - If the Wogans were an important enough family to be given a legitimate daughter of the earl of Ormonde in marriage, why is there complete silence on this in Butler of Ormonde pedigrees?

> Also the given name of John Wogan's wife, Anne, fits nicely with her being the daughter of Earl James' lawful wife, Anne Welles.

It's only Welsh Wogan pedigrees from about 1600 that give John Wogan's wife the first name of 'Anne'. A contemporary document from 1421 states that his wife's name was 'Margaret'.

> I believe the reason for the accuracy of this particular set of pedigrees is that the senior line of the Wogan family, namely the Phillips family, were still in possession of Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire (an ancient Wogan family holding), at the time Lewis Dwnn was doing his work. It is likely that the Phillips family provided Lewis Dwnn access to their family muniments and, based on those original documents, he was able to construct a reliable pedigree from Sir David Wogan (died 1417), grandson of Sir John Wogan, Justiciar of Ireland [died 1321], down to the various Welsh co-heirs of the Wogan family.

Rather than speculating/fantasizing about the state of the muniments in Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire in about 1600 (and thanks for the laugh which that colourful account provided me), you'd be better off speculating and researching about life for the Butlers of Ormonde and the Wogans in county Kilkenny in about 1400. Other than them living in the same county, is there any evidence that indicates a connection, let alone a blood tie, existed between the two families?

> Next the pedigrees inform us that John Wogan was married to Anne, daughter of the Earl of Ormond, and that they had two daughters, Katherine and Anne. We know from the record of the administration of the estates of John Wogan dated 1421, that he was survived by a wife, Margaret (who was evidently a second wife), and four daughters, Elizabeth, Katherine, Joan, and Agnes. The daughters Katherine and Agnes would would be the daughters Katherine and Anne named in the Welsh pedigree. The name Agnes was interchangeable with Anne in this time period.

Can you provide a concrete example where the names 'Anne' and 'Agnes' are interchangeable in the early 15th-century? Francis Green in 1919 thought that it was Joan Wogan, not her sister Agnes, who was married to Oliver Eustace. I can see 'Jo-Ann' and 'Ann' being interchangeable a lot easier than 'Agnes' and 'Ann'.

On Friday, October 3, 2014 1:56:52 AM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> This evening I came across contemporary evidence of this marriage. The marriage is proven by a letter dated 23 Jan. 1454, written by "chief persons" in the County of Kildare written to Richard, Duke of York, then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. A transcript of the letter is published in Ellis, Original letters, illustrative of English history, 2nd Ser. 1 (1827), pages 117-124, [snip]
> The letter gives an account of the conditions of the country. On pages 118-119 mention is made of Edmund Botiller and William Botiller, cousins germane to James [Butler], 5th Earl of Ormond, then Earl of Wiltshire. The letter proceeds to relate that the said William Botiller, Nicholas Wogan, David Wogan, and Richard Wogan, came with diverse Irish enemies and English rebels to Rathcoffy Castle, where "Anne Wogan sumtyme wyffe to Oliver Eustace, then beyng the Kynges widue, was dwelling." It is further stated that these parties "brant the yates of the said place, and took hir with them and Edward Eustace, son and hire to the said Olyver, and sonne and heire apparent to the said Anne, and of the age of viij. yeres, and yit holdeth them as prysoners, and toke godes and catals of the said Anneis to the value of v.C. marks."

Anne Wogan's son and heir Edward Eustace was aged 8 years in January 1454, so born about 1445/46.

> A wikipedia article online states that in 1453 "a private war erupted between different branches of the Wogan family for possession of the Castle." I presume this is why Anne (Wogan) Eustace was taken prisoner by her Wogan kinsmen.

But these male Wogan kinsmen who stormed her castle and kidnapped her son and heir were aided by Edmund and Wiiliam Butler, two kinsmen of the Earl of Ormonde. If Anne Wogan was a granddaughter of the 3rd Earl of Ormonde, why would her Butler kinsmen aid in depriving her of her rights and her castle?

> Elsewhere I find that Joseph Hunter, Rotuli selecti ad res anglicas et hibernicas spectantes (1834): 86 includes a contemporary record dated 24 October 1426, which specifically names Anne and Katherine, minor daughters of John Wogan son and heir of David Wogan knight. This record reads as follows:
> Idemq' dns Rex xxiiij. die Octob'r anno quinto [1426] p'dco de assensu d'ci justic' & consilii Regis &c. p xx marc' dno Regi p Ric'm fitz Eustace milit solvend' ad recept' sca'cii Hibn' concessit & vendidit eid'm Ric'o custodiam oim t'ras & ten que fuerunt David Wogan militis vel Joh'is Wogan fil & hered' p'dci David & que p morte p'dci David vel Joh'is & rone minoris etatis Anne Wogan & Kat'ine Wogan filia's & hered' p'dci Joh'is ac consanguineas p'fati David in manib's Regis &c. hend' usq. ad plenum etatem her' p'dict &c. et sic de hered' in hered' &c. que val' p a[nnu]m xl. marc'.

Great find, Douglas. Of course since Anne and Katherine were minors in October 1426, they were under age 16, so born after 1410. Thus, they were daughters of John Wogan by his wife Margaret Preston, who were married in 1411. Anne Wogan not having a son and heir until 1445/46 is further support that she was born after 1410.

> With these new pieces of evidence, additional proof has been adduced to further verify the accuracy of the Wogan pedigrees published by Meyrick. I conclude therefore that the Wogan pedigrees are reliable and can be trusted in their statements that John Wogan [died 1421] married Anne daughter of the Earl of Ormond.

Actually, you've proven that the Wogan pedigrees published by Meyrick are inaccurate as to the mother of Anne Wogan Eustace and Katherine Wogan Dwnn. The contemporary record from 1426 shows that they have to have been the daughters of John Wogan and his wife (presumably Margaret, who survived him), daughter of Christopher Preston.

But since you've demonstrated that John Wogan's eldest daughter Elizabeth could not have been descended from the Prestons, per the papal dispensation for her marriage, the possibility remains that she could have had some blood tie to the Butlers of Ormonde.

Though I caution you that Welsh pedigrees prior to 1600 were primarily oral, handed down generation to generation by bards. The wife of John Preston was not an heiress, and seemingly brought no lands, or claim to lands, to the Wogans. That is just the kind of blank slate allowing a bard or descendant, eager to prettify the family tree, and aware that John Wogan lived in Ireland, to claim that he married a daughter of the premier earl within Ireland.

At any rate, this descent from Edward I for Margaret Fleming Bowen, fails because Katherine Wogan Dwnn was daughter of a Preston, not of a Butler of Ormonde.

Cheers, -----Brad

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 8, 2014, 6:08:40 PM10/8/14
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

This post is a reply to Brad Verity's post earlier today. Since Brad quotes freely from my previous posts, to avoid confusion, I've labelled my earlier statements as "DR" and Brad's responses as "BV." Where I have replied to Brad's post, it has no label.

On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 11:43:51 AM UTC-6, Brad Verity wrote:

> > DR: The marriage of John Wogan and Anne Butler has been accepted by several historians,
>
> BV: Which historians, specifically?

The marriage of John Wogan and Anne Butler was first published in Peerage of Ireland 7 (1789): 95-100 (sub Philips, Lord Milford) which reads as follows:

"Sir John Wogan ... was father of the said Catharine, by Anne his wife, daughter of James Butler, Earl of Ormond, by Eleanor, daughter of Humphrey, Earl of Hereford, by Elizabeth, daughter of K. Edward I.").

As with the Lewis Dwnn pedigrees, the source for the marriage of John Wogan and Anne Butler is likely to have been the Phillips family, who were the senior co-heirs of the Wogan family. The author accepted the marriage, but placed Anne Butler in the wrong generation of her family. It's an easy enough mistake to make.

Notes & Queries 2nd Ser. 5 (1858): 329-330 includes the marriage without qualification.

Morris, County Seats of the Noblemen & Gentlemen of Great Britain & Ireland 1 (1866): 21-22 includes the marriage.

Allen, Notes on the Sheriffs of Pembrokeshire, 1541-1899 (1900): 3-4 does not mention the marriage, but he cites Lewis Dwnn as a reliable source for the Wogan family.

Bartrum, Welsh Genealogies 300-1400 3 (1980): 164 [Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2: "John [Wogan] d. before 1420 = Ann d. James Butler Earl of Ormond"].

There are probably other historians who support the marriage, but this should suffice for now.

< < DR: Since my original post on the Wogan family, I've had the opportunity to check an Irish source, Rotulorum Patentium et Clausorum Cancellariae Hiberniae Calendarium, Volume 1, Part I, published in 1828. This book contains a variety of documents pertaining to Irish families in the period from King Henry II to King Henry VII.
<
< < DR: On page 219, the following document is found which pertains to the administration of the estate of John Wogan, son and heir of David Wogan, knight, dated 1421.
<
< < DR: Date: 17 April 1421.
>
> > DR: "R. p. eo qd. oia. man'ia. tre. &c. qua fuer' Johis f' & her' David Wogan militis in co. Kild', que in man' Rs, rone min' etat' Eliz'e, Kat'ine, Johe & Agnetis filiar' & hedu' dci Johis, exist', in frontura marchiar' Hibnicor'inim' sita & p ip'os pene destructa sunt, de assensu &c. p m'capco'em Johis f. Rob'ti Burnell de Dub' & Pat' Penkeston de co' Kild', comis' Johi Bellewe mil' jun' custod' oi'm dcor' man'ior' &c., hend' dur' bpito, (dotib' Anastacie nup ux dci Dav', & Marga'te nup ux' dci Johis f' Dav', exceptis,) reddend' extent'. Dub', 17 Ap."
< <
< < DR: The above record indicates that the manors, lands, etc. in county Kildare which formerly belonged to John son and heir of David Wogan knight were granted to John Bellewe, knight, the younger, during the minority of Elizabeth, Katherine, Joan, and Agnes, daughters and heirs of the said John. The dowers of Anastasie late wife of the said David Wogan and Margaret late the wife of John son of David Wogan were excepted.

> > DR: The above record proves that John Wogan survived his father, Sir David Wogan, who died in 1417.

< BV: I'm not sure about this. It proves he was dead by April 1421. But I'm not familiar enough with abbreviated Latin legalese to determine if this April 1421 grant was done very soon after John Wogan's death, or changing custody of his lands some years after it.

Inasmuch as John Wogan is called "son and heir" of Sir David Wogan, it is virtually certain that he survived his father who died c.1417. Exactly when John Wogan died, we are not told. An exact answer would be to say that John Wogan died sometime between c.1417 and 1421.

> >DR: This record also tells us that John Wogan was survived by a widow, Margaret, and four daughters, Elizabeth, Katherine, Joan, and Agnes.
>
> BV: Yes, and the four daughters were minors, so all under the age of sixteen in April 1421.

You seem to be following S.S. Walker, 'Proof of Age of Feudal Heirs in Medieval England,' Medieval Studies, 35 (1973), p. 307 which states that male wards came of age at twenty-one, female at fourteen if married and sixteen if single.

On the surface, this blanket statement is correct. However, in a recent thread, I cited a record in which Walter de Bermingham the younger [died 1361] was styled a minor by the king in a certain record, whereas we know from a later proof of age that he had already turned 21.

Because majority was dependant not on age (as stated by Walker), but on proof of age, all you can reliably say is that the Wogan daughters were unmarried and "presumably" under aged 16 in 1421. That is certainly close to the truth but should not be taken as an exact statement. Medieval records can be fuzzy at times, certainly with respect to ages of wards.

For evidence that Elizabeth Wogan, the eldest daughter of John Wogan, was already 16 as of 18 October 1421, see a grant made by her on that date published in Rotulorum Patentium et Clausorum Cancellariae Hiberniae Calendarium 1(1) (1828): 219. She was dispensed to marry the following year. I have estimated her birth as being c.1407, but the Calendarium record would suggest she was probably born closer to c.1406.

< < DR: As Mr. Higgins has kindly pointed out, Complete Peerage 12(1) (1953): 6, note g (sub Slane) indicates that John Wogan's eldest daughter and heiress, Elizabeth Wogan, was married by papal dispensation dated 11 May 1422 to Christopher Fleming, Lord Slane, son and heir of Thomas Fleming, Lord Slane, by Elizabeth, daughter of Robert Preston, Knt., by his 1st wife, Margaret, daughter of Walter de Bermingham, Knt., of Castle Carbury, co. Kildare, Chief Governor of Ireland. The dispensation for this marriage is found in Cal. of Entries in the Papal Registers: Papal Letters, 1417-1431, pg. 221, which indicates that Elizabeth Wogan and Christopher Fleming were related in the 3rd and 4th degrees of affinity.
>
> BV: Here is the exact papal register entry:
>
> BV: "1422...5 Id. May. St. Peter's, Rome. To the archbishop of Armagh. Mandate to dispense Christopher Flemyng, donsel, and Elizabeth Wogan, damsel, of the diocese of Meath (Minden.), to marry notwithstanding that they are related in the third and fourth degrees of affinity. Edward, bishop of Meath, who ought to have been written to. is at present absent (in remotis agat). Oblate nobis. (f.92)"

There is a second record of the dispensation for this marriage which you missed. Where is it?

> > DR: Assuming that Elizabeth Wogan was approximately aged 15 at the time of he marriage, this would place her birth as about 1407.

> BV: We know she was still a minor (under 16) the year previous, in April 1421.

"We know" (who is we?). Once again you have made a blanket statement about the age of a minor female which is not necessarily true.

> > DR: Complete Peerage 12(1) (1953): 6, note g (sub Slane) notes that a John Wogan (doubtless Elizabeth's father) is recorded by Hollinshed as having married in 1411 to the eldest daughter of Christopher Preston. The record in Hollinshed is attributed by Complete Peerage as being in Hollinshed, Chronicle of Ireland, p. 75. However, I found the marriage recorded in Hollished's Chronicles of England, Scotland & Ireland 6 (1808): 263. It reads as follows:
>
> > DR: "In the year 1411, marriages were celebrated among the nobilitie in Ireland .... John Wogan matched with the eldest daughter of Christopher Preston." END OF QUOTE.
>
> BV: Great. Nice work going to the original chronicle source.

The record of this marriage was actually first published in Spencer, Ancient Irish Histories: A View of the State of Ireland (1809): 23-24, and reads as follows:

Henry Marleburrough's Chronicle sub A.D. 1411: "And on Saint Valentines Even and Day, Mariages were Celebrated between John Wogan, and the Daughter of Christopher Preston and Walter de la Hide, and the second daughter of the same Christopher, with a great deale of charges." END OF QUOTE.

This same record was again published in Ware, Antiquities and History of Ireland (1705): 71, and again at a later date slightly altered by Hollinshed.

> BV: Ummm, why is there no corresponding mention of John Wogan's marriage to a daughter (or sister, if the marriage took place after the earl's 1405 death) of the earl of Ormonde, in an Irish chronicle? That would have been an even more prestigious match...

Henry Marleburrough's Chronicle overlooks many major events. What appears to have caught his interest is that the two marriages incurred "a great deale of charges." Must have been a great double wedding!

> > DR: If correct, then Elizabeth Wogan's step-mother, Margaret Preston, would have been the first cousin of her husband, Christopher Fleming, Lord Slane. Since the papal dispensation makes no mention of Elizabeth Wogan and Christopher Fleming themselves being related in the 2nd degree, it seems clear that Margaret Preston was not the mother of Elizabeth Wogan.
>
> BV: Agreed. Nice deductive work.
>
> > DR: We can be certain of this for another reason as Elizabeth Wogan was born c.1407, whereas John Wogan did not marry Margaret Preston until 1411.
>
> BV: You are on shakier ground here. We only know that Elizabeth was under age 16 in April 1421, you are only guessing that she was about age 15 when the papal dispensation was granted the next year. Marriage dispensations could be granted for children of any age, even infants. She is described as "damsel" in the dispensation. I don't know if an age can be determined from that descriptor.

The grant by Elizabeth Wogan recorded in Rotulorum Patentium et Clausorum Cancellariae Hiberniae Calendarium 1(1) (1828): 219 suggests she was already 16 in October 1421, or born c.1405. So, no, I'm not on shakier ground.
>
> > DR: This means, of course, that John Wogan [died 1421] must have had two wives, and that his surviving wife, Margaret Preston, was a later wife.
>
> BV: It would appear to be the case that Elizabeth Wogan and her husband Christopher Fleming were not related by blood. *IF* all of the parentage CP assumed for Christopher Fleming, and for Margaret Preston Wogan, is accurate, then yes, Margaret Preston could not have been the mother of Elizabeth Wogan.
>
> BV: This is as far as you have gone, Douglas. You have shown using a contemporary 15th-century record (the 1422 marriage dispensation) that the eldest (and only the eldest) daughter of John Wogan, namely Elizabeth, can not have been descended from the daughter of Christopher Preston whom the chronicle reports was married to John Wogan in 1411.
>
> BV: Because of this, you have opened the possibility that John Wogan had a previous wife to Margaret Preston. You are now making a tremendous leap that the previous wife was a daughter of the 3rd earl of Ormonde, with only a pedigree from about 1600 to back you up.

The marriage of John Wogan and Anne Butler was almost certainly drawn from the muniments of the Phillips family, of Picton Castle, Pembrokshire. Picton Castle was an ancient Wogan family property and had descended by inheritance to the Phillips family.

> DR: You have not found a single piece of corroborating evidence, that pre-dates 1600, that James, the third earl of Ormonde, had any daughter at all, let alone one named Anne married to John Wogan.
>
> BV: Of the 24 separate sources you cite as support for your account, *not a single one of them* states that he had a daughter Anne, wife of John Wogan. Wow, not a single one. Not CP, not Collins's Peerage, not Lodge's Peerage of Ireland, not a single one of those 24 sources makes mention of a daughter married to John Wogan. What? Did the Butlers of Ormonde forget all about it?

As far as I know, there is no reliable pedigree of the Butler family either in print or in private hands. Over the years I've had to assemble the various children of the Earls of Ormond from a variety of sources.

In dismissing my list of sources, you overlooked several which support the marriage of John Wogan and Anne Butler. Did you overlook mention of their marriage in your haste to trash this line, or did you patiently go through available sources as I have done? I think you already had your mind made up.

> BV: By the way, the daughter "Joan (wife of Teige O'Carroll)" you also give to the 3rd Earl of Ormonde and Anne Welles above, is an error. Teige O'Carroll married Joan Butler, daughter of the 2nd (not the 3rd) Earl of Ormonde:
>
> BV: http://books.google.ca/books?ei=XGw1VMTVMoHloATixIK4BA&id=tQGFAAAAIAAJ&dq=Teige+O%27Carroll+married+Joan+Butler&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Joan+Butler

> BV: Joan, no doubt named for her maternal grandmother Joan de Burgh, Lady Darcy, apparently died of the plague in 1383, so it is chronologically impossible for her to have been the daughter of the 3rd Earl of Ormonde and Anne Welles:
>
> BV: http://books.google.ca/books?ei=d201VMWgCtbkoATF14KABw&id=mlgyAQAAMAAJ&dq=Joan+Butler+O%27Carroll+1383&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Joan+Butler+1383

I've seen Joan Butler assigned as daughter of both the 2nd and 3rd Earl of Ormond. I'm sure you're correct, however. I'll remove her as the daughter of the 3rd Earl. Thank you for this correction.

> > DR: While it is possible that Anne, wife of John Wogan, might be an illegitimate daughter of James le Boteler, 3rd Earl of Ormond, I believe the fact that John Wogan's father, Sir David Wogan, was styled a nobleman and that he held extensive estates, including two castles, negates against that idea. Sir David Wogan would have been in a position socially to have married his son and heir, John Wogan, to a legitimate daughter of James, 3rd Earl of Ormond.
>
> BV: This argument of yours then begs the question - If the Wogans were an important enough family to be given a legitimate daughter of the earl of Ormonde in marriage, why is there complete silence on this in Butler of Ormonde pedigrees?

That's a silly statement. You seem to be implying that the Butlers of Ormond preserved a reliable pedigree of their family. Really? Where?

Sir David Wogan, styled a nobleman in his lifetime, was clearly an important enough man for his son and heir, John Wogan, to have married a daughter of the Earl of Ormond. I might note that Sir David Wogan, for example, appears in numerous contemporary records in Rotulorum Patentium et Clausorum Cancellariae Hiberniae Calendarium. He was an important figure in his day.
>
> > DR: Also the given name of John Wogan's wife, Anne, fits nicely with her being the daughter of Earl James' lawful wife, Anne Welles.
>
> BV: It's only Welsh Wogan pedigrees from about 1600 that give John Wogan's wife the first name of 'Anne'. A contemporary document from 1421 states that his wife's name was 'Margaret'.

I've presented sufficient evidence which shows that Margaret was John Wogan's surviving second wife.

> > DR: I believe the reason for the accuracy of this particular set of pedigrees is that the senior line of the Wogan family, namely the Phillips family, were still in possession of Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire (an ancient Wogan family holding), at the time Lewis Dwnn was doing his work. It is likely that the Phillips family provided Lewis Dwnn access to their family muniments and, based on those original documents, he was able to construct a reliable pedigree from Sir David Wogan (died 1417), grandson of Sir John Wogan, Justiciar of Ireland [died 1321], down to the various Welsh co-heirs of the Wogan family.
>
> BV: Rather than speculating/fantasizing about the state of the muniments in Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire in about 1600 (and thanks for the laugh which that colourful account provided me), you'd be better off speculating and researching about life for the Butlers of Ormonde and the Wogans in county Kilkenny in about 1400.

Lewis Dwnn recorded accurate pedigrees of the Wogan family starting with Sir David Wogan [died c.1417] and going down for the next four generations. I presented the proofs documenting the pedigrees from contemporary records.

The only error that I know Dwnn made is that he referred to John Wogan's daughter, Anne, in two places as Anne and once as Joan. Her correct name was Anne. It's a minor error but still an error.

BV: Other than them living in the same county, is there any evidence that indicates a connection, let alone a blood tie, existed between the two families?

I read a statement in print this last week that Sir John Wogan [died 1321], the famous Justiciar of Ireland, was the chief tenant of the Earl of Ormond. Sir John Wogan's extensive Irish land holdings descended to his grandson, Sir David Wogan. As such, I assume this made Sir David Wogan the chief tenant of the Earl of Ormond in his generation.

> > DR: Next the pedigrees inform us that John Wogan was married to Anne, daughter of the Earl of Ormond, and that they had two daughters, Katherine and Anne. We know from the record of the administration of the estates of John Wogan dated 1421, that he was survived by a wife, Margaret (who was evidently a second wife), and four daughters, Elizabeth, Katherine, Joan, and Agnes. The daughters Katherine and Agnes would would be the daughters Katherine and Anne named in the Welsh pedigree. The name Agnes was interchangeable with Anne in this time period.
>
> BV: Can you provide a concrete example where the names 'Anne' and 'Agnes' are interchangeable in the early 15th-century?

Yes, I can. Ellis, Original letters, illustrative of English history, 2nd Ser. 1 (1827), pages 117-124 presents a contemporary letter dated 1454 in which Anne Wogan, widow of Oliver Eustace, is called both Anne and Anneis. Anne, Agnes, Anneis, Annis are all interchangeable name forms.

BV: Francis Green in 1919 thought that it was Joan Wogan, not her sister Agnes, who was married to Oliver Eustace. I can see 'Jo-Ann' and 'Ann' being interchangeable a lot easier than 'Agnes' and 'Ann'.

Jo-Ann indeed. You have a lot of learn.

> > DR: Elsewhere I find that Joseph Hunter, Rotuli selecti ad res anglicas et hibernicas spectantes (1834): 86 includes a contemporary record dated 24 October 1426, which specifically names Anne and Katherine, minor daughters of John Wogan son and heir of David Wogan knight. This record reads as follows:
>
> > Idemq' dns Rex xxiiij. die Octob'r anno quinto [1426] p'dco de assensu d'ci justic' & consilii Regis &c. p xx marc' dno Regi p Ric'm fitz Eustace milit solvend' ad recept' sca'cii Hibn' concessit & vendidit eid'm Ric'o custodiam oim t'ras & ten que fuerunt David Wogan militis vel Joh'is Wogan fil & hered' p'dci David & que p morte p'dci David vel Joh'is & rone minoris etatis Anne Wogan & Kat'ine Wogan filia's & hered' p'dci Joh'is ac consanguineas p'fati David in manib's Regis &c. hend' usq. ad plenum etatem her' p'dict &c. et sic de hered' in hered' &c. que val' p a[nnu]m xl. marc'.
>
> DR: Great find, Douglas. Of course since Anne and Katherine were minors in October 1426, they were under age 16, so born after 1410.

Once again you have fallen into the trap of assuming a "minor" unmarried female had not yet achieved aged 16 when a guardian was appointed for her by the king. That may or may not be true. The exact thing to say is that the Wogan girls hadn't yet proven their age. And that is a different matter.

> > DR: With these new pieces of evidence, additional proof has been adduced to further verify the accuracy of the Wogan pedigrees published by Meyrick. I conclude therefore that the Wogan pedigrees are reliable and can be trusted in their statements that John Wogan [died 1421] married Anne daughter of the Earl of Ormond.

As stated above, I'm satisfied that this line is sound.

Brad Verity

unread,
Oct 8, 2014, 8:19:51 PM10/8/14
to
On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 3:08:40 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> The marriage of John Wogan and Anne Butler was first published in Peerage of Ireland 7 (1789): 95-100 (sub Philips, Lord Milford) which reads as follows:
> "Sir John Wogan ... was father of the said Catharine, by Anne his wife, daughter of James Butler, Earl of Ormond, by Eleanor, daughter of Humphrey, Earl of Hereford, by Elizabeth, daughter of K. Edward I.").

Since you do not cite Peerage of Ireland Volume 7 sub Philips Lord Milford in either your account of James Butler, 3rd Earl of Ormond, or of Anne Butler & John Wogan, in the post you made in this thread on Oct. 6th, this is a new discovery for you - congratulations.

> As with the Lewis Dwnn pedigrees, the source for the marriage of John Wogan and Anne Butler is likely to have been the Phillips family, who were the senior co-heirs of the Wogan family.

I don't believe anyone is disputing this.

> The author accepted the marriage, but placed Anne Butler in the wrong generation of her family. It's an easy enough mistake to make.

Absolutely, if you are not verifying a pedigree with the use of primary records to establish chronology. Apparently none of the Irish Patent Rolls or other primary sources were published in 1759 when the Peerage of Ireland came out. Given the chronologically impossible placement of Anne, wife of John Wogan as daughter of the 1st Earl of Ormonde, the editors of the Peerage of Ireland did not verify whatever was the source within the Philipps family that gave them the Wogan/Butler marriage.

But Peerage of Ireland did not reject the marriage, so you have finally found an Irish source that concedes the possibility of a Wogan marriage to the Butler earls of Ormonde. That's some progress, at least.

> Notes & Queries 2nd Ser. 5 (1858): 329-330 includes the marriage without qualification.
I glanced at your link to this - it's focused on the Welsh Picton Castle, so not an Irish-oriented historical source.

> Morris, County Seats of the Noblemen & Gentlemen of Great Britain & Ireland 1 (1866): 21-22 includes the marriage.

I don't know anything about this source, so have no opinion on its reliability.

> Allen, Notes on the Sheriffs of Pembrokeshire, 1541-1899 (1900): 3-4 does not mention the marriage, but he cites Lewis Dwnn as a reliable source for the Wogan family.

A Welsh, as opposed to Irish, oriented source.

> Bartrum, Welsh Genealogies 300-1400 3 (1980): 164 [Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2: "John [Wogan] d. before 1420 = Ann d. James Butler Earl of Ormond"].

I've already stated why in my opinion, Bartrum was out of his element with these Irish Wogan generations.

> There are probably other historians who support the marriage, but this should suffice for now.

The Peerage of Ireland one, at least, is good.

> Inasmuch as John Wogan is called "son and heir" of Sir David Wogan, it is virtually certain that he survived his father who died c.1417. Exactly when John Wogan died, we are not told. An exact answer would be to say that John Wogan died sometime between c.1417 and 1421.

Fine.

> You seem to be following S.S. Walker, 'Proof of Age of Feudal Heirs in Medieval England,' Medieval Studies, 35 (1973), p. 307 which states that male wards came of age at twenty-one, female at fourteen if married and sixteen if single.
> On the surface, this blanket statement is correct. However, in a recent thread, I cited a record in which Walter de Bermingham the younger [died 1361] was styled a minor by the king in a certain record, whereas we know from a later proof of age that he had already turned 21.

I haven't read this other thread. Can you provide a link, please.

> Because majority was dependant not on age (as stated by Walker), but on proof of age, all you can reliably say is that the Wogan daughters were unmarried and "presumably" under aged 16 in 1421. That is certainly close to the truth but should not be taken as an exact statement. Medieval records can be fuzzy at times, certainly with respect to ages of wards.

Now we are in a "fuzzy" area, according to you. "Fuzzy" is not "solid" or "sound", words you have used to describe this line of descent.

> For evidence that Elizabeth Wogan, the eldest daughter of John Wogan, was already 16 as of 18 October 1421, see a grant made by her on that date published in Rotulorum Patentium et Clausorum Cancellariae Hiberniae Calendarium 1(1) (1828): 219. She was dispensed to marry the following year. I have estimated her birth as being c.1407, but the Calendarium record would suggest she was probably born closer to c.1406.

Another new piece of evidence - you've had a productive day, Douglas. Yes, I agree that if Elizabeth Wogan made a grant herself in October 1421, she would had to have been of age. Since she is described as a minor in April 1421, the likeliest explanation is that she turned of age (16) at some point in the six month period between Apr and Oct 1421, so the likeliest estimate of her birth year would be 1405.

I've got to go to work, so I'll address the remainder of your post later tonight.

Cheers, ----Brad

Craig Kilby via

unread,
Oct 8, 2014, 8:38:48 PM10/8/14
to Brad Verity, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Here's a dumb question for everyone. Reading this post, on a topic I am not at all familiar with:

The point is made throughout that a female was of age at age 16. Was this in Ireland under some form of law not covered by English Common Law? The age of majority for males or females was 21, not 16. At least if the the purchaser wanted to have good title to the property he was buying. Comments?

jhigg...@yahoo.com

unread,
Oct 8, 2014, 11:32:00 PM10/8/14
to
All of the sources which DR has now cited for the supposed marriage of John Wogan and Anne Butler are almost certainly based on Dwnn's pedigree of Wogan, or whatever Dwnn's source was - the Phillips family, if we are to believe DR. At least one of them (Allen) actually cites Dwnn, and DR asserts (without proof) that another (Archdall's edition of Lodge's Peerage of Ireland) is based on the Phillips family information also.

The bottom line is that none of them can be shown to be independent sources to support the supposed Wogan/Butler marriage. And all of them are impeached by the later research of Francis Green and the sources he cites - research which DR refuses to accept, no doubt because it doesn't support his desired conclusion. The Dwnn pedigree of the Wogans has been shown to be defective in many particulars and thus unreliable - a not uncommon conclusion for many visitation pedigrees as most genealogists are well aware (although not DR apparently). And the absence of a Wogan marriage in the various Butler of Ormond pedigrees is the final, and fatal, flaw for DR's creative efforts.

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 1:31:05 AM10/9/14
to
On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 6:38:48 PM UTC-6, Craig Kilby via wrote:
< Here's a dumb question for everyone. Reading this post, on a topic I am not at all familiar with:
<
< The point is made throughout that a female was of age at age 16. Was this in Ireland under some form of law not covered by English Common Law? The age of majority for males or females was 21, not 16. At least if the the purchaser wanted to have good title to the property he was buying. Comments?

That's not a dumb question at all, Craig. I had the same question. Thank you for asking it.

S.S. Walker, 'Proof of Age of Feudal Heirs in Medieval England,' Medieval Studies, 35 (1973), p. 307 states that male wards came of age at twenty-one, female at fourteen if married and sixteen if single. Mr. Walker's comments only pertain to English wards, as indicated by the title of his article.

The age of majority for English wards was essentially determined by the proof of age inquisition, not necessarily by chronological age. Male wards could be granted their lands before they were 21 by special favor of the king. Also I've seen married women be declared an adult before age 14 in England and as late as aged 18. So Mr. Walker's comments should be considered a very general rule of thumb. An individual case in England may or may not conform to Mr. Walker's criteria. In general yes, in specific not necessarily.

While the King of England certainly had the wardship of the Wogan heiresses, he may have had to defer to Irish customs when determining the age of majority of his Irish wards.

Perhaps someone here on the newsgroup can enlighten us as to the pertinent wardship practices in medieval Ireland.

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 2:16:14 AM10/9/14
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

In an earlier post today, I made the following statement:

"For evidence that Elizabeth Wogan, the eldest daughter of John Wogan, was already 16 as of 18 October 1421, see a grant made by her on that date published in Rotulorum Patentium et Clausorum Cancellariae Hiberniae Calendarium 1(1) (1828): 219."

I was relying on the incompetent Francis Green for an English translation of the original record in Latin. That was a mistake. Here it what Mr. Green said:

Elizabeth Wogan "gave to John Bellewe, esq. for his life lands in Balmagaroy, held of the king's manor of Dynlek." [Reference: West Wales Historical Records 6 (1916): 186].

Mr. Green gave no date for this grant. Red flag.

I wasn't satisfied with Mr. Green's translation of the Latin text. As such, I sought out a better one. Below is an exact English translation of the Latin text which gives a much different rendering than provided by Mr. Green:

Date: 18 October 1421.
Licence, for a fine of 1m paid [in the hanaper], to John Bellew kt to give lands [etc.] in Balmagarvy, which are held of the King in chief by knight service as a parcel of the manor of Duleek, [co. Meath] to Elizabeth Wogan, to have during her life; and also Licence to Elizabeth to receive and hold the same. END OF TRANSLATION.

As we can see above, it was Elizabeth Wogan who received lands in October 1421, not her guardian, John Bellew, Knt.

Elsewhere I find that the manor of Duleek, co. Meath was held in 1380 by Thomas son and heir of Simon Fleming [see Complete Peerage 12(1) (1953): 4-5 (sub Slane)]. Thomas Fleming's son and heir, Christopher Fleming, subsequently became the husband of Elizabeth Wogan. As such, I assume this grant of lands to Elizabeth Wogan was made in anticipation of her forthcoming marriage to Christopher Fleming. Since John Bellew, Knt., is the one making the grant, it seems likely that he was granting Wogan family lands, not Fleming lands, to Elizabeth Wogan.

Brad Verity

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 4:52:14 AM10/9/14
to
On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 3:08:40 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> There is a second record of the dispensation for this marriage which you missed. Where is it?

I have no idea. I went by your citation "Cal. of Entries in the Papal Registers: Papal Letters, 1417-1431, pg. 221". British History Online breaks down the Papal Registers in blocks of pages, rather than page by page. So I went to the 219-227 page block and scrolled down till I found the entry I posted. If that's not the correct one, apologies.

> > BV: We know she was still a minor (under 16) the year previous, in April 1421.
> "We know" (who is we?).

"We" is anyone who read the April 1421 Irish Patent Roll entry you posted, which says that Elizabeth and her other sisters were minors.

> Once again you have made a blanket statement about the age of a minor female which is not necessarily true.

You're dancing around, Douglas. A minor is a minor - under age 16 for a female. I realize this throws your whole line of descent in jeopardy, but you just have to deal with it.

> Henry Marleburrough's Chronicle overlooks many major events.

Name two that pertain to the Butler of Ormonde family.

> What appears to have caught his interest is that the two marriages incurred "a great deale of charges." Must have been a great double wedding!

Yippee.

> The grant by Elizabeth Wogan recorded in Rotulorum Patentium et Clausorum Cancellariae Hiberniae Calendarium 1(1) (1828): 219 suggests she was already 16 in October 1421, or born c.1405. So, no, I'm not on shakier ground.

You were a couple days ago when you were guessing her age as 15 at her marriage. Congrats for introducing a better piece of evidence today.

> The marriage of John Wogan and Anne Butler was almost certainly drawn from the muniments of the Phillips family, of Picton Castle, Pembrokshire.

The marriage was not "almost certainly drawn from the muniments" of Picton Castle or anywhere else. What evidence do you have that the Philipps family had any muniments in the castle, save for your active imagination? And what muniments do you imagine the family provided? A marriage contract or settlement between the earl of Ormonde and the Wogans? Wills? Diaries? Dwnn in 1600 quotes pedigrees, not documents. He collected pedigrees, not proofs.

I haven't, as far as I'm aware, read a single line written by Dwnn, save for the excerpts Douglas has posted in this thread, so I'm asking here from anyone who has read Dwnn: Is there any portion of Dwnn's works where he analyzes or challenges these pedigrees?

> Picton Castle was an ancient Wogan family property and had descended by inheritance to the Phillips family.

I don't believe anyone is disputing this.

> As far as I know, there is no reliable pedigree of the Butler family either in print or in private hands. Over the years I've had to assemble the various children of the Earls of Ormond from a variety of sources.

Finally - this admission! Had you started off by saying this in your initial post, it would have gone over much better with me, not that you want or need my approval.

So, next question from here, what sources did you use to arrive at your list of the 3rd Earl's children? Are there any sources that left off children whom you can otherwise prove existed?

> In dismissing my list of sources, you overlooked several which support the marriage of John Wogan and Anne Butler. Did you overlook mention of their marriage in your haste to trash this line, or did you patiently go through available sources as I have done? I think you already had your mind made up.

I was referring to the list of 24 sources you provided immediately following your account of James Butler, 3rd Earl of Ormonde. I was not referring to the sources that you provided following the subsequent generations. Of those 24 sources, not one states that the 3rd Earl of Ormonde had a daughter married to John Wogan. And, yes, I did go through all 24, though not very patiently.

As for having my mind made up to trash this line, no. If the evidence leads to a marriage between John Wogan and a Butler of Ormonde, fantastic.

> I've seen Joan Butler assigned as daughter of both the 2nd and 3rd Earl of Ormond. I'm sure you're correct, however. I'll remove her as the daughter of the 3rd Earl. Thank you for this correction.

She had descendants, too, though I only have a few of them so far, and like all the Irish families in my database, they are skeletal and I've done no serious research on them. But one of her lines goes back into the Butlers of Ormonde, and leads down to Piers, the 8th Earl. She also is ancestral to the 16th century earls of Desmond and Clanricarde.

> > BV: This argument of yours then begs the question - If the Wogans were an important enough family to be given a legitimate daughter of the earl of Ormonde in marriage, why is there complete silence on this in Butler of Ormonde pedigrees?
>
> That's a silly statement. You seem to be implying that the Butlers of Ormond preserved a reliable pedigree of their family. Really? Where?

If no reliable pedigree of the Butlers of Ormonde exists, then you have to look into other types of sources. How, for example, do we know of the existence of the daughters of the second and fourth earls of Ormonde? In what type of sources do they appear? Do you have an explanation as to why no daughter named Anne Butler, wife of John Wogan, is appearing in these other types of sources?

> Sir David Wogan, styled a nobleman in his lifetime, was clearly an important enough man for his son and heir, John Wogan, to have married a daughter of the Earl of Ormond. I might note that Sir David Wogan, for example, appears in numerous contemporary records in Rotulorum Patentium et Clausorum Cancellariae Hiberniae Calendarium. He was an important figure in his day.

OK, so compare the Wogans to other known marriages of daughters of the earls of Ormonde. We know the 1st Earl of Ormonde's only daughter Pernel Butler married an English baron, Lord Talbot. Of the 2nd Earl of Ormonde's two known daughters, Joan, as discussed above, was married to Teige O'Carroll, an Irish chieftain, and Eleanor was married to the earl of Desmond. The fourth earl of Ormonde's only daughter Elizabeth was married to an English peer, the earl of Shrewsbury.

I don't know anything about the career of David Wogan save what you've posted in this thread, so I don't know how he stacks up in comparison. But I did note that Francis Green said in his 1919 Wogan article, "Of the career of John Wogan (son and heir of Sir David Wogan) little is known, except that he was an esquire, and that his wife's name was Margaret." I found this obscurity a little odd for a supposed son-in-law or brother-in-law of the premier earl in Ireland.

> I've presented sufficient evidence which shows that Margaret was John Wogan's surviving second wife.

And there is no piece of evidence outside of your c.1600 Dwnn pedigrees that he ever had a wife named Anne.

> Lewis Dwnn recorded accurate pedigrees of the Wogan family starting with Sir David Wogan [died c.1417] and going down for the next four generations. I presented the proofs documenting the pedigrees from contemporary records.

Except you presented no proofs that specifically corroborated a Wogan/Butler of Ormonde marriage.

> The only error that I know Dwnn made is that he referred to John Wogan's daughter, Anne, in two places as Anne and once as Joan. Her correct name was Anne. It's a minor error but still an error.

And has nothing to do with the alleged Wogan marriage to a Butler of Ormonde.

> I read a statement in print this last week that Sir John Wogan [died 1321], the famous Justiciar of Ireland, was the chief tenant of the Earl of Ormond. Sir John Wogan's extensive Irish land holdings descended to his grandson, Sir David Wogan. As such, I assume this made Sir David Wogan the chief tenant of the Earl of Ormond in his generation.

Well, great! Why are we just now hearing about this? It's your strongest argument yet for a Wogan marriage to a daughter of the earl of Ormonde, especially a legitimate daughter, as you keep insisting is the case. I hope you can recall where you read it.

> Yes, I can. Ellis, Original letters, illustrative of English history, 2nd Ser. 1 (1827), pages 117-124 presents a contemporary letter dated 1454 in which Anne Wogan, widow of Oliver Eustace, is called both Anne and Anneis. Anne, Agnes, Anneis, Annis are all interchangeable name forms.

Douglas, you are on a roll. Not just a concrete example, a contemporary document involving the lady in question herself! Well done. I stand corrected. You are right and Francis Green was wrong: it was Agnes, not Joan, Wogan who married Oliver Eustace.

> BV: Francis Green in 1919 thought that it was Joan Wogan, not her sister Agnes, who was married to Oliver Eustace. I can see 'Jo-Ann' and 'Ann' being interchangeable a lot easier than 'Agnes' and 'Ann'.
>
> Jo-Ann indeed. You have a lot of learn.

There's no need to be snippy. After all, your beloved Lewis Dwnn also interchanged the two names 'Anne' and "Joan'. ;-)

> Once again you have fallen into the trap of assuming a "minor" unmarried female had not yet achieved aged 16 when a guardian was appointed for her by the king. That may or may not be true. The exact thing to say is that the Wogan girls hadn't yet proven their age. And that is a different matter.

This doesn't sound right to me, and I don't trust your understanding of medieval law, so you'll have to consult an expert on this point to convince me. But of course you are under no obligation to convince me of anything.

> As stated above, I'm satisfied that this line is sound.

Sorry, "fuzzy" and "may or may not be true" do not give you the authority to label this line as "sound". From the evidence you've provided, it's a stretch to even label it "possible".

Finally, save for a quick Google search of "Joan Butler Teige O"Carroll", I've done absolutely no research of my own on this line of descent. I don't have the time, or the inclination, currently. The only sources I've looked at are the ones that Douglas and John Higgins have provided in this thread. But as long as evidence continues to be presented here, I'll continue to look at it, and weigh in with my opinion, for the little it's worth.

Cheers, -----Brad

Tompkins

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 6:40:02 AM10/9/14
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 6:38:48 PM UTC-6, Craig Kilby via wrote:
< Here's a dumb question for everyone. Reading this post, on a topic I am not at all familiar with:
<
< The point is made throughout that a female was of age at age 16. Was this in Ireland under some form of law not covered by English Common Law? The age of majority for males or females was 21, not 16. At least if the the purchaser wanted to have good title to the property he was buying. Comments?


________________________________________
From: Douglas Richardson via
Sent: 09 October 2014 06:31
> That's not a dumb question at all, Craig. I had the same question. Thank you for asking it.
>
> S.S. Walker, 'Proof of Age of Feudal Heirs in Medieval England,' Medieval Studies, 35 (1973), p. 307 states that male wards came of age at twenty-one, female at fourteen if married and sixteen if single. Mr. Walker's comments only pertain to English wards, as indicated by the title of his article.
>
> The age of majority for English wards was essentially determined by the proof of age inquisition, not necessarily by chronological age. Male wards could be granted their lands before they were 21 by special favor of the king. Also I've seen married women be declared an adult before age 14 in England and as late as aged 18. So Mr. Walker's comments should be considered a very general rule of thumb. An individual case in England may or may not conform to Mr. Walker's criteria. In general yes, in specific not necessarily.
>
> While the King of England certainly had the wardship of the Wogan heiresses, he may have had to defer to Irish customs when determining the age of majority of his Irish wards.
>
> Perhaps someone here on the newsgroup can enlighten us as to the pertinent wardship practices in medieval Ireland.
>

So far as the Anglo-Irish population were concerned, they were the same as in England - the common law applied there just as in England. The Gaelic population followed their own laws, of course.

Matt Tompkins

Craig Kilby via

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 11:02:16 AM10/9/14
to GEN-MEDIEVAL GEN-MEDIEVAL
Then this poses a problem. One source I rely upon for answers to legal questions like this is Robert Baird's Genealogy Filing Cabinet. It is his contention that the age of majority in colonial Virginia was 21, in terms of being able to give good title to real property. Here is the link to this particular subject:

http://www.genfiles.com/articles/legal-age/

If there are errors in Mr. Baird's report, I'd certainly like to know of them.

Craig Kilby

On Oct 9, 2014, at 6:40 AM, Tomp...@lists2.rootsweb.com, Matthew (Dr.) via wrote:

> On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 6:38:48 PM UTC-6, Craig Kilby via wrote:
> < Here's a dumb question for everyone. Reading this post, on a topic I am not at all familiar with:
> <
> < The point is made throughout that a female was of age at age 16. Was this in Ireland under some form of law not covered by English Common Law? The age of majority for males or females was 21, not 16. At least if the the purchaser wanted to have good title to the property he was buying. Comments?
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Douglas Richardson via
> Sent: 09 October 2014 06:31
>> That's not a dumb question at all, Craig. I had the same question. Thank you for asking it.
>>
>> S.S. Walker, 'Proof of Age of Feudal Heirs in Medieval England,' Medieval Studies, 35 (1973), p. 307 states that male wards came of age at twenty-one, female at fourteen if married and sixteen if single. Mr. Walker's comments only pertain to English wards, as indicated by the title of his article.
>>
>> The age of majority for English wards was essentially determined by the proof of age inquisition, not necessarily by chronological age. Male wards could be granted their lands before they were 21 by special favor of the king. Also I've seen married women be declared an adult before age 14 in England and as late as aged 18. So Mr. Walker's comments should be considered a very general rule of thumb. An individual case in England may or may not conform to Mr. Walker's criteria. In general yes, in specific not necessarily.
>>
>> While the King of England certainly had the wardship of the Wogan heiresses, he may have had to defer to Irish customs when determining the age of majority of his Irish wards.
>>
>> Perhaps someone here on the newsgroup can enlighten us as to the pertinent wardship practices in medieval Ireland.
>>
>
> So far as the Anglo-Irish population were concerned, they were the same as in England - the common law applied there just as in England. The Gaelic population followed their own laws, of course.
>
> Matt Tompkins
>
>

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 11:27:13 AM10/9/14
to
On Thursday, October 9, 2014 9:02:16 AM UTC-6, Craig Kilby via wrote:
> Then this poses a problem. One source I rely upon for answers to legal questions like this is Robert Baird's Genealogy Filing Cabinet. It is his contention that the age of majority in colonial Virginia was 21, in terms of being able to give good title to real property. Here is the link to this particular subject:

English common law is different than Virginia law.

DR

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 12:17:12 PM10/9/14
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

My comments below concern various statements made by Francis Green in his article on the Wogan family published in West Wales Historical Records 6 (1916): 169-232.

In previous posts, I've mentioned that Francis Green made an error in identifying the daughter of John Wogan who married Oliver Eustace as Joan Wogan. Green states he used Lewis Dwnn as his source.

But Lewis Dwnn mentions this woman three times. In two places she is called Anne, and in one place Joan.

The correct name of this daughter is Anne Wogan. This is certainly an easy mistake to make. But why? If Mr. Green was paying close attention to Lewis Dwnn, he would have realized the discrepancy.

Next, I've noted that he mistranslated the 1421 grant to John Wogan's daughter, Elizabeth Wogan. This is a rather glaring error as the grant states it is being made for "vita sua" [i.e., her life]. Instead Mr. Green said the grant was made to Elizabeth Wogan's guardian for "his life."

But the errors continue. Mr. Green then proceeds to discuss the marriages of a third Wogan daughter, Katherine Wogan. Here's the first part of what he says:

"Katherine (second daughter of John Wogan) married as her first husband Sir Henry Wogan, knt. Who this Sir Henry Wogan was is unknown. The only known person of that name was Sir Henry Wogan of Wiston, and he was apparently alive in 1448, while, as we shall see, the first husband of Katherine must have died prior to Nov., 1438."

Mr. Green professes to be ignorant of the identity of Katherine Wogan's first husband, Sir Henry Wogan. Yet Lewis Dwnn gives us the clue to his identity. Dwnn states that Katherine was "Gatrin arglwyddes Wgan o Bwlston." I believe this means she was Katherine, lady Wogan of Boulston.

In this time period, Lewis Dwnn shows that there were two Sir Henry Wogan's, one who resided at Wiston, the other at Boulston. Yet Mr. Green fails to connect the dots to realize that Katherine Wogan's first husband was the second Sir Henry Wogan, of Boulston.

For someone writing a history of the Wogan family, this is a rather significant error. But it gets worse.

Mr. Green states that whoever Katherine Wogan's first husband was, he died prior to November 1438. He then proceeds to discuss a Patent Roll item:

"As her second husband, Katherine married Owen Dwnn of Muddlescumb, near Kidwelly, co. Carm. Now after her first husband's death, Katherine Wogan was alleged to be a king's widow, that is to say, she became a ward of the king, and Owen Dwnn married her without royal licence, and as a result he was bound over in the sum of £100 to appear to answer for his enterprise. Owen Dwnn controverted the allegation as to his wife being a king's widow, and on 27 Nov. 1438, a commission was appointed to enquire into the matter. This entry proves that her marriage to Owen Dwnn took place prior to the date of the appointment of the commission." END OF QUOTE.

But this isn't exactly what the Patent Rolls say. The specific reference to the Patent Rolls is Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1436-1441 (1907): 200, which Mr. Green fails to give. Here's what the record actually says:

Date: 1438. 27 May. "Commission to the justice of South Wales to enquite by oath of the town and county of Kermerdyn touching the complaint of Owen Don, who represents that he was bound in 100l. before James Daudeley, knight, justice of South Wales, on Saturday after Midsummer, 13 Henry VI, either to bring before Easter then follwing a discharge of all his liability to the king for having married without licence Katherine, late the wife of Henry Wogan, knight, alleged to be a king's widow, or, after reasonable warning, to appear in person at Kermerdyn aforesaid, to stand his trial in the matter; and that he sued to the council for his discharge but could not get answer before the said feast of Easter, and then was arrested at Kermerdyn and his bond declared forfeit to his utter undoung; further to ascertain whether the said Owen was warned to appear on any day between the said feast and the date of his arrest, and whether the said Henry held any lands whereby his relict would belong to the king." END OF QUOTE.

As the record states, Owen Dunn had married Katherine, widow of Sir Henry Wogan, sometime before Saturday after Midsummer, 13 Henry VI, which is 25 June 1435, not 27 November 1438 as Mr. Green implies. This means that Katherine's first husband, Sir Henry Wogan, died before 25 June 1435, not November 1438.

Besides these errors, while he mishandled what little of Lewis Dwnn he did use, he failed to mention that Dwnn recorded in three places that John Wogan had married a daughter of the Earl of Ormond. He evidently thought that wasn't worth mentioning, so he suppressed it.

On one short page, Mr. Green makes a cavalcade of errors. He misquoted Lewis Dwnn, he overlooked Lewis Dwnn, he suppressed Lewis Dwnn, he failed to correctly identify Sir Henry Wogan, of Boulston, he mistranslated the Latin, and he misquoted and misdated a Patent Rolls record in English. Whew!

This is why I refer to Francis Green as the "incompetent Mr. Green." I recommend that people use him with extreme caution. He makes Lewis Dwnn look like a saint.

Brad Verity

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 12:55:09 PM10/9/14
to
On Thursday, October 9, 2014 1:52:14 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> OK, so compare the Wogans to other known marriages of daughters of the earls of Ormonde. We know the 1st Earl of Ormonde's only daughter Pernel Butler married an English baron, Lord Talbot. Of the 2nd Earl of Ormonde's two known daughters, Joan, as discussed above, was married to Teige O'Carroll, an Irish chieftain, and Eleanor was married to the earl of Desmond. The fourth earl of Ormonde's only daughter Elizabeth was married to an English peer, the earl of Shrewsbury.

Whoops - I forgot a Butler of Ormonde daughter in the list above. Elizabeth Butler, countess of Shrewsbury, was not the only daughter of the 4th Earl of Ormonde. There was another daughter Anne Butler, who was contracted in May 1429, at a young age, to marry Thomas, the future 7th earl of Desmond, but died in 1435/6 before the marriage was completed. See the following posts (the first one by Douglas) for further details:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/8M1sBNT7sas/oreipQGPldEJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/8M1sBNT7sas/4QTBlATPkhYJ

Cheers, ----Brad

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 1:20:17 PM10/9/14
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

In previous posts, I've discussed the record of John Wogan's estate dated 1421 which names his widow, Margaret, and his four minor daughters, Elizabeth, Katherine, Joan, and Anne.

The original record is published in Rotulorum Patentium et Clausorum Cancellariae Hiberniae Calendarium, Volume 1, Part I, published in 1828, page 219. I earlier quoted the original record in Latin and gave a brief translation.

A full English translation of the text is available on a helpful Irish database entitled Circle, A Calendar of Irish Chancery Letters c. 1244-1509, available at the following weblink:

https://chancery.tcd.ie

Here is the English text provided by Circle:

"Date: 17 April 1421 Dublin. As all the manors, lands [etc.] that belonged to John, son and heir of David Wogan kt, in co. Kildare, which are in the K.'s hand by reason of the minority of Elizabeth, Katherine, Joan and Agnes, daughters and heirs of the said John, are situated in the frontier of the marches of the Irish enemies, and are mostly destroyed and wasted by them, COMMISSION, by assent [etc.] and by mainprize of John s. of Robert Burnell of Dublin and Patrick Penkeston of co. Kildare, to John Bellew kt, junior, of custody of all the said manors [etc.]; to have during pleasure (except the dower of Anastasia, widow of the said David, and of Margaret widow of the said John s. of David), rendering the extent." END OF QUOTE.

We are told here that John Wogan's estates were location "in the frontier of the marches of the Irish enemies" and that they were "mostly destroyed or wasted by them." In other words, John Wogan's estates were in bad shape in 1421, when the king appointed John Bellew, Knt., as the custodian of them.

There is a second record concerning the estate of John Wogan published in Rotulorum Patentium et Clausorum Cancellariae Hiberniae Calendarium, Volume 1, Part I, published in 1828, page 252. Circle provides the English text of that item:

Date: 18 April 1421. To the T. and chamberlains of the Ex. ORDER, at petition, to pay £18 to John Bellew kt, junior, who has sustained various costs in the last year upon the maintenance of manors, messuages, lands and tenements that belonged to John Wogan esq. in co. Kildare, and which are in the K.'s hand by the death of the said John Wogan." END OF QUOTE.

We learn from the second record that John Wogan had died or before in the previous year [1420], as John Bellew, Knt., states he had sustained various costs "in the last year" on the maintenance of John Wogan's estates in co. Kildare. We are informed that John Wogan held the social rank of esquire.

This confirms Lewis Dwnn's statement that John Wogan was an esquire. Here is what Dwnn says (his pedigrees published by Meyrick):

Meyrick, Heraldic Vis. of Wales & Part of the Marches between the Years 1586 & 1613 1 (1846):

page 21 (Dwnn ped.: "John Wgan o Bicton esgwier"

page 42 (Wogan ped.: "John Wgan off Picton Esqr"

page 220 (Wogan ped.: "John Wgan o Bicton Esg."

Once again the accuracy of Lewis Dwnn is confirmed.

For further confirmation of John Wogan being an esquire, I find the following snippet item on Google Books taken from the book, Statute Rolls of the Parliament of Ireland by Henry F. Berry, Volume ?, published in 1910, page 761:

"... of our said sovereign lord's Common Bench in Ireland, and Anne his wife, one of the heirs of John Wogan, esquire, purposeth to sue ... the said Robert and Anne sued assise of Novel disseisin against Nicholas Wogan, Davy Wogan and Richard Wogan, before Roland ...." END OF QUOTE.

The above item appears to concern the legal proceedings dated c.1455 commenced by Anne Wogan (daughter of John Wogan), then wife of Robert Dowdall, Chief Justice of the Common Bench in Ireland, against her Wogan kinsmen who had ousted her from the castle and manor of Rathcoffey, co. Kildare.

So Lewis Dwnn got the social rank of John Wogan correct.

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 1:56:50 PM10/9/14
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

I can add a little bit more to the snippet item on Google Books taken from the book, Statute Rolls of the Parliament of Ireland by Henry F. Berry, Volume ?, published in 1910, page 761:

"And forasmuch as it is meritorious to bear witness to truth, that is, that we certify for truth that whereas Robert Douedall, knight, Chief Justice of our said sovereign lord's Common Bench in Ireland, and Anne his wife, one of the heirs of John Wogan, esquire, purposeth to sue ... the daughters, and heirs of the said John Wogan, occupied and held while he lived, as we are informed, forasmuch as it is said he said that the said Robert and Anne occupy the inheritance which should belong to the said Katherin in Ireland. Upon which matter we declare to you in truth that the said Robert and Anne sued assise of Novel disseisin against Nicholas Wogan, Davy Wogan and Richard Wogan, before Roland ...." END OF QUOTE.

The book by Berry quoted above is one of several volumes in a series. Can anyone tell me the exact volume number for this item?

Elsewhere, I find that the helpful Irish website, Circle, provides a full text of the actual Parliamentary item. It reads as follows:

"Letters testimonial to be made under the g.s. of Ire. by authority of the parliament held on Monday after St Margaret the Virgin [21 July 1460] in favour of Robert Dowdall kt, chief justice of the common bench, and Anne his wife, viz.:1

'Also, at the prayer of Robert Dovedall, knight, Chief Justice of the Common Bench of our sovereign lord the K. in Ire., and Anne his wife: it is ordained and granted by authority of the parliament, that Robert and Anne may have a letter testimonial to be made under the g.s. of Ire. in the form that follows: To all to whom thees present lettres shall com, Richard duc of York lieuten{a}nt of Irland and the lordes spiritels and temporels percuratours and communes of the said land at our said souverain lordes parliament holden at diuelin the Monday next after the fest of seint Margaret the virgyn the yere of our said souverain lordes gracieux reigne xxxviii sendeth greting in our lord Jhu Crist And for asmuche as it is meritory bere witness to trouth, that is that we certify for trouth that ther as Robert dovedall knyght Chief Justice of our said souverain lordes comune benche in Irland and Anne his wyf oon of the heirs of John Wogan Squier pourposith to sue hir enheritance in Pembrokshire the whiche Owyn don whiche that wedded Kateryn the other of the doghtres and heirs of the said John Wogan occupied and held while he leved as we been enfo{r}med forasmuche as it is said, he said that the said Robert and Anne occupieth the enheritance the whiche should be long to the said Kateryn in Irland upon the whiche matier we assert you in trouth that the said Robert and Anne sued assise of novell disseisyng ayenest Nicholas Wogan davy Wogan and Richard Wogan before Roland the sonne of Edward fitz Eustace kynght Tresourer of Irland and othres Justices of assises in the Counte of Kildar after the decesse of the said Kateryn At the whiche tyme the said Owyn was ten{a}nt by the curtesy And so for severel titles it longed to them to sue oonly assise in ther owen names and recovered half the levying to their parte And soo been they seised oonly of the half longyng to their parte And Robert and Anne toke never nothying that should long to the said Owyn In witnesse of the whiche the kynge our souverain lordes grete Seall of this his land of Irland to this is put At the instance of the said Robert and Anne.

Yeven the day and place abovesaid.'

Stat. Hen. VI, pp 758-60."

The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://chancery.tcd.ie/document/patent/38-henry-vi/6

The above record implies that John Wogan's surviving heirs were Anne Wogan, the wife of Robert Dowdall in 1460, and Katherine, wife of Owen Don, who was dead in 1460. Katherine is specifically called "the other of the doghtres and heirs of the said John Wogan." The wording suggests that the other two Wogan sisters, Elizabeth (Wogan) Fleming and Joan Wogan, had died without issue before 1460. If correct, this would lend further support Lewis Dwnn's Wogan pedigrees which present Anne and Katherine as John Wogan's only surviving daughters that had issue. Once again Lewis Dwnn looks right on the money.

As best as I can tell, the above legal wrangling was triggered by the death of Owain Dwnn, late husband of Katherine Wogan. Dwnn family sources state that Owain Dwnn died in 1460, which fits the date of the above record.

Jan Wolfe

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 2:33:54 PM10/9/14
to
The full text of the snippet quoted above is available at
https://chancery.tcd.ie/document/patent/37-henry-vi/3

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 2:45:05 PM10/9/14
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

The online Circle database has another record dated 1459, in which Robert Dowdall and his wife, Anne Wogan, were pursuing their rights to the Wogan family inheritance in Pembrokeshire. This earlier item indicates that Anne Wogan's sister, Katherine Wogan, wife of Owen Dwnn, was already dead, but that Owen Dwnn was still alive.

The item below specifically states that following the death of Katherine Wogan, Robert Dowdall and his wife, Anne, had "recovered half þe lyving longyng to their parte" in co. Kildare. The other half was occupied in 1459 by Nicholas Wogan, to which Owen Dwnn "pretended" to have title.

This statement indicates that there were only two surviving Wogan heiresses, as Anne Wogan was evidently entitled to only half the Wogan lands in co. Kildare.

Complete Peerage in its Slane account makes no mention if the older Wogan heiress, Elizabeth (Wogan) Fleming, had issue. Her issue if she had any was obviously extinct by 1459. This would be a new addition to Complete Peerage.

The item below may also be viewed at the following weblink:

https://chancery.tcd.ie/document/patent/37-henry-vi/3?view=chancery_advanced_search&display=free_text_page&path=search-documents&search=Davy%20Wogan&regnal_year=All&roll=All&field_year_value[value][date]=&field_year_value2[value][date]=

"Date: 9 Feb. 1459.

At the plea of Robert Dowdall, chief justice of the common bench, and Anne Wogan his wife, one of the daughters of John Wogan, it was ordained and agreed by authority of the said parliament [9 Feb. 1459] that they might have a letter addressed to the most honourable and noble lord, the earl of Pembroke, and another letter testimonial in the following form, viz.:1

[1] 'Right worshipfull and noble lord we recomaunde us unto you. And pleas you wit that Robert dovedall chief Justice of our souverain lord þe Kings comune benche in Irlande, and Anne his wyf oon of theirs of John Wogan Squier pourposeth to sue to your lordship for hir einheritaunce in Pembrok Shire the whiche Owyn don, which wedded Kateryn the othre of the doghtres and heirs of the saide John occupieth and holdeth forasmuche as it is said, he saith that þe saide Robert and Anne occupieth the enheritaunce the whiche shoulde long unto the said Kateryne in Irlande. Upon þe whiche matire we acerte you in trouthe that þe saide Robert and Anne sued assise of novell disseysyn agayns Nicholas Wogan Davy Wogan and Richard Wogan befor Roland þe sonne of Edward fitz Eustace kynght Tresourer of Irlande and othres Justices of assises in the Counte of kildar after þe decese of the saide Kateryn, at þe whiche tyme þe saide Owyn was tenaunt by the courtesy. And so for severell titles it longed to them to sue oonly assise in their owyn names, and recovered half þe lyving longyng to their parte. And so be they seised oonlie of the half longyng to their parte, and the saide Nicholas occupieth ye othre half to the whiche the saide Owyn pretendeth to have title. And the saide Robert and Anne toke nevir nothing that shoulde long to the saide Owyn. Pleas it you to shewe yo{r} gracieux lordship with favo{r} unto þe saide Robert and Anne that they might have that that longeth to them of right in your parties. And that they may knowe that they fare the better at our contemplacion and prayer. Right worshipfull and noble lord the holy Trinite kiepe you. Writt at diuelin under the oon parte of our souverain lord þe Kings gret Seall of his lande of Irlande in his parlement holden at diuelin the Friday next after the feest of Blasé the Bisshop. To the Right Worshipfull and noble lord Therle of Pembrok By Thomas Erle of kildar depute Lt of Irland and þe lordes spirituels and temporels procato{r}s and communes.'

[2] 'To all the to whom thes presents lettres shall com Thomas Erle of kildar depute to the Right heigh and mightie Prince Richard Duc of York Lt of our souverain lord þe kyng of his land of Irland and þe lordes spirituels and temporals procatours and communes of þe said lande at our saide souverain lordis Parlement holden at diuelin the Friday next after the feest of seint Blasé the Bisshop the yere of our saide souverain lordes g{a}cieux reigne xxx{ti}vii sendeth gretyn in our lord Jhu Crist. And forasmuche as it is meritorie to berre witnes to trouth that is that we certifie for trouth, that ther as Robert dovedall Chief Justice of our saide souverain lordes comune benche in Irlande and Anne his wyf oon of theirs of John Wogan Squier pourposeth to sue hir enheritaunce in Pembrok Shire, the whiche Owyn don whiche that wedded Kateryn the othre of þe doughters and heirs of þe saide John Wogan occupieth and holdeth as we ben enfo{r}med, for as muche as it is saide he saith that þe saide Robert and Anne occupieth the enheritaunce the whiche should long to the saide Kateryn in Irland. Upon the whiche matier we acerte you in trouth that the saide Robert and Anne sued assise of nouel disseysyn against Nicholas Wogan davy Wogan and Richard Wogan before Roland the sonne of Edward fitz Eustace knyght Tresourer of Irland and othres Justices of assises in the Counte of kildar after the decese of the saide Kateryn at the whiche tyme the saide Owyn was tenaunt by the courtesy. And so for severell titles it longed to them to sue oonlie assise in their owyn names, and recouered half þe leving to their parte. And so be thei seised oonlie of the half longyng to their parte. And the saide Nicholas occupieth the othre half, to the which the saide Owyn pretendeth to have title. And the saide Robert and Anne toke never nothing that should long to the said Owyn. In witnes of the whiche the kyng our souverain lordes grete seall of thes his lande of Irlande to this is put. At the instaunce of ye saide Robert and Anne. Yeven the day and place above said.'

Stat. Hen. VI, pp 586-8.

1 The letter was written in English. Superior letters are printed here within curly brackets. Contractions are expanded and printed in italics." END OF QUOTE.

For some reason, the above item is not indexed by Circle in the persons index. I was able to find it only using the Free Text Search.

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 2:49:20 PM10/9/14
to
On Thursday, October 9, 2014 12:33:54 PM UTC-6, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> The full text of the snippet quoted above is available at
>
> https://chancery.tcd.ie/document/patent/37-henry-vi/3

Dear Jan ~

Thanks so much for mentioning this. I found the text online earlier today as well as a second one relating to the same matter.

Do you have any idea what volume of the Statutes in which it is published? Circle only says Statutes, Henry VI, and gives page references.

DR

Jan Wolfe

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 2:58:01 PM10/9/14
to

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 3:23:30 PM10/9/14
to
Jan ~

Abe Books is selling a CD-Rom of the following title:

Statute Rolls of the Parliament of Ireland, Reign of King Henry the Sixth (Being Volume II of the Irish Record Office Series of Early Statutes) [Early Statutes of Ireland], Volume 2.

Circle indicates that the two records I found for Robert Dowdall and his wife, Anne Wogan, were printed in Statutes, Henry VI. Since the above book is labelled "Reign of Henry the Sixth," I assume that the two records I found are published in Volume 2 of the Statutes series.

Thanks for your help. It's always appreciated.

jhigg...@yahoo.com

unread,
Oct 9, 2014, 7:39:12 PM10/9/14
to
On Thursday, October 9, 2014 11:45:05 AM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
>
>
> The online Circle database has another record dated 1459, in which Robert Dowdall and his wife, Anne Wogan, were pursuing their rights to the Wogan family inheritance in Pembrokeshire. This earlier item indicates that Anne Wogan's sister, Katherine Wogan, wife of Owen Dwnn, was already dead, but that Owen Dwnn was still alive.
>
>
>
> The item below specifically states that following the death of Katherine Wogan, Robert Dowdall and his wife, Anne, had "recovered half þe lyving longyng to their parte" in co. Kildare. The other half was occupied in 1459 by Nicholas Wogan, to which Owen Dwnn "pretended" to have title.
>
>
>
> This statement indicates that there were only two surviving Wogan heiresses, as Anne Wogan was evidently entitled to only half the Wogan lands in co. Kildare.
>
>
>
> Complete Peerage in its Slane account makes no mention if the older Wogan heiress, Elizabeth (Wogan) Fleming, had issue. Her issue if she had any was obviously extinct by 1459. This would be a new addition to Complete Peerage.
>
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

You obviously didn't read CP very closely before you stated above that CP "makes no mention" of any issue of Elizabeth (Wogan) Fleming, and that her issue if any "was obviously extinct by 1459". In fact, CP says clearly that her son David was the 5h Lord Slane. He died in 1463, and his son Thomas the 6th Lord died sp in 1471 - both long after 1459.

Although Thomas the 6th Lord was apparently the last male-line descendant of Elizabeth (Wogan) Fleming. he did have sisters, noted in CP vol. 12 pt. 1 p. 8 note f. At least one of them married and had descendants to the present day. One of her present-day descendants was mentioned earlier in this thread and can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_William,_Duke_of_Cambridge

Shall we now refer to you as "the incompetent Mr. Richardson"? :-)

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 10, 2014, 1:38:59 PM10/10/14
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

Mr. Higgins is correct that Complete Peerage 12(1) 1953: 7 (sub Slane) identifies David Fleming, Lord Slane [died 1463] as the son of Christopher Fleming, Lord Slane [died 1447], by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth, daughter and co-heiress of John Wogan.

Here is the evidence that Complete Peerage cites which indicates that David Fleming was the son of Elizabeth Wogan:

Nothing.

Red flag.

Against this unsupported statement, we have two contemporary Irish documents which prove this is not the case. Complete Peerage was obviously not aware of these documents.

The two documents in question were published in Statutes, Henry VI, and are now available on the online Circle website. They show that in 1459 and 1460 Robert Dowdall and his wife, Anne Wogan (sister of Elizabeth Wogan), were pursuing their rights to the Wogan family inheritance in Pembrokeshire. From these records, we learn that Anne Wogan's sister, Katherine Wogan, wife of Owen Dwnn, was dead in 1459, and had been survived by her husband, Owen Dwnn. No mention is made of another sister or her issue in these records. According to the documents, the Pembrokeshire lands had been held solely by Owen Dwnn and his wife, Katherine Wogan. The Dowdalls had apparently been holding the Wogan family family in co. Kildare, and Owen Dwnn claimed that they were withholding his wife, Katherine's share.

In both the 1459 and 1460 documents, the Dowdalls refer to Katherine Wogan as "the other of the doghtres and heirs of the said John Wogan." Not "another" daughter, but the "other" daughter.

The 1459 record further relates that following the death of Katherine (Wogan) Dwnn sometime before 1459, Robert Dowdall and his wife, Anne, sued to establish their title to the Kildare lands and "recovered half þe lyving longyng to their parte." The other half was occupied in 1459 by Nicholas Wogan, to which Owen Dwnn [late husband of Katherine Wogan] "pretended" to have title. Again no mention is made of another Wogan sister or her issue. Two sisters = two parts.

The wording of these documents makes it clear that there were only two surviving Wogan heiresses, namely Anne (Wogan) (Eustace) Dowdall and Katherine (Wogan) Dwnn. Anne Wogan was evidently entitled to only half the Wogan lands in co. Kildare. Had David Fleming been a co-heir in 1459, Anne (Wogan) Dowdall would have only been entitled to a third share, not a half share.

This raises the question as to the identity of David Fleming's actual mother. We have a clue in the fact that David Fleming's son and heir, Thomas Fleming, contracted a marriage c.1463/4 to the daughter of Robert Preston, 4th Lord Gormanston, to whom Thomas is stated to have been related "within degrees of marriage."

If David Fleming's mother was a Preston, it would explain the near kinship between his son and Robert Preston's daughter. If David Fleming's mother was Elizabeth Wogan, there would seemingly be no near kinship between these parties.

On the surface, this implies that Christopher Fleming had an unknown third wife, near related to the Preston family. Whatever the case, Elizabeth Wogan was clearly not the mother of Christopher Fleming's younger son, David Fleming.

As for other details of the Wogan family inheritance, we know from other records that Anne Wogan, then widow of Oliver Eustace, held the castle and manor of Rathcoffey, co. Kildare (a Wogan family property) in 1454, from which property she had been evicted. Furthermore we know that another Wogan family property, Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire, was later held by Katherine (Wogan) Dwnn's son, Harry Dwnn. There is no indication that David Fleming or his son, Thomas Fleming, had any interest whatsoever in these Wogan family properties. Again this is a negative point against Complete Peerage's identification that David Fleming was Elizabeth Wogan's son.

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Oct 10, 2014, 3:38:30 PM10/10/14
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

Today I located the following seven items in the catalogue of the National Library of Wales today. They concern Treharne [ap] Morgan, Esq., and his wife, Jenet Dwnn (or Donn), which Jenet was the grand-daughter and co-heiress of Katherine (Wogan) Dwnn (or Donn). Treharne and his wife, Jenet, appear twice in the ancestry of the New World immigrant, Margaret (Fleming) Bowen.

The records copied below prove that Treharne [ap] Morgan and his wife, Jenet Dwnn (or Donn) were married before 10 March 1487/8.

Treharne [ap] Morgan was living in 1519. His widow, Jenet, was living at Llandeilo Abercowyn in 1529, where Treharne had allegedly built a house. In 1540 Jenet was living at Tenby, Pembrokeshire.

On 3 December 1548 William Morgan, John Morgan, Traharn Morgan, and Thomas Morgan, "coheirs of their grandmother, Jenette Donne," of Tenby, Pembrokeshire reached agreement regarding the division of 'gavell kynde' land, whereby William Morgan received certain lands in Istym Gwylly, and lands in the parishes of Llangyndyrn, Kidwelly and Llandewaylok.

Lewis Dwnn's pedigree of this family is found in Meyrick, Heraldic Vis. of Wales & Part of the Marches between the Years 1586 & 1613 1 (1846): 218-219. He identifies Jenet Dwnn's four co-heirs, William, John, Traharn, and Thomas Morgan, as the four sons of her eldest son, Harry Morgan, Esq.

Interested parties may view the Morgan family pedigree at the following weblink:

https://archive.org/stream/HeraldicVisitationsOfWalesAndPartOfTheMarchesBetweenTheYears1586/HeraldicVisitationsOfWalesAndPartOfTheMarchesBetweenTheYears1586And1613ByLewysDwnnVol.1#page/n245/mode/2up

Lewis Dwnn's pedigrees are proven correct once again.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + +

1. Ref no. 1779.

Title Grant of land at Glan Daven, 1487/8, March 10.
Arrangement File
Summary 1. Harry ap Ieuan Bagh;. 2. Trahayarn Morgan, Jenett Don, his wife. Grant of land at Glan Daven.

2. Ref no. 1868.

Title Deed re exchange of lands in Glan Daven and Blayn a Nant, 1487/8, March 10.
Arrangement File
Summary 1. Trahayarn ap Morgan;. 2. John ap Ieuan ap Griffithe. Deed re exchange of lands in Glan Daven and Blayn a Nant. Seal.

3. Ref no. 2043.

Title Lease of a tenement in the Knappe within the franchise of the town of Karmartheyn, 1498, July 20.
Arrangement File
Summary 1. Traharne ap Morgan, Jenett, his wife;. 2. Lewys ap Thomas, Jenet, his wife. Lease of a tenement in the Knappe within the franchise of the town of Karmartheyn.

4. Ref no. 2394.

Title Grant of a third part of the commote of Generglyn with lands, etc., thereto belonging in co. Cardigan, to the ..., 1519, July 22.
Arrangement File.
Summary 1. Thomas Wogan, clerk, and Traharn ap Morgan, esq.;. 2. John Wogan of Wiston, knight, and Joan his wife. Grant of a third part of the commote of Generglyn with lands, etc., thereto belonging in co. Cardigan, to the use of the said John Wogan and Joan his wife with remainder to John Wogan, esq., William Wogan and David Wogan, sons of the said John Wogan, knight. Latin. Seals.

5. Ref no. 1046.

Title Bond re quiet possession. (Half document missing), 1529, Oct. 29.
Arrangement File
Summary 1. Jenetta Don, of Llandeilo Abercowyn, widow;. 2. [Oweyn ap] Traharn ap Morgan. Bond re quiet possession. (Half document missing).

6. Ref no. 2154.

Title Lease of land in Castell Toghe Ycha, 1539/40, March 8.
Arrangement File
Summary 1. Jenet Don' of Tenby, widow;. 2. Lewys ap Prychart of the comote of Lagharn. Lease of land in Castell Toghe Ycha.

Note by DR: I assume "Castell Toghe Ycha" is the same place as Casteltegh, Carmarthenshire, which was held by her father, Harry Dwnn, Esq., at the time of his death in 1469 [see National Archives, SC 8/344/E1314].

7. Ref. no. 2148.

Title William Morgan, John Morgan, Traharn Morgan, Thomas Morgan, coheirs of their grandmother Jenette Donne of Temby, 1548, Dec. 3.
Level File
Summary Agreement between the above named re division of 'gavell kynde' land, whereby William Morgan receives certain lands in Istym Gwylly, lands in the parishes of Llangyndyrn, Kydwelly and Llandewaylok.


jennifer bowen

unread,
Sep 16, 2021, 3:22:16 AMSep 16
to
On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 at 7:08:21 PM UTC-5, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Charles Ward contacted me offlist recently and brought my attention to a possible King Edward I descent for the New World immigrant, Margaret Fleming, wife of Griffith Bowen, Gentleman [died 1676], of Llangewydd, Gower, Glamorganshire, Wales, and Boston, Massachusetts. After Charles Ward contacted me, I discovered that Susan Johanson had two similar lines of descents in her online database.
>
> The critical generation below is Generation 6 (Anne le Boteler or Butler = John Wogan). John Wogan is stated in several ancient Welsh pedigrees published by Meyrick to have married Anne, daughter of the Earl of Ormond.
>
> Elsewhere I find that Peter Bartrum, Welsh Genealogies 300-1400 3 (1980): 86 [Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2] states that "John [Wogan] d. before 1420 = Ann d. James Butler Earl of Ormond."
>
> Mr. Bartrum's Wogan pedigree may be view at the following weblink:
>
> http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5373/bleddyn%20ap%20maenyrch%202.png?sequence=1
>
> I've since done additional research on the Wogan family. As best I can tell, Generation 6 is sound. John Wogan's father, Sir David Wogan [died 1417], was a wealthy Irish nobleman who owned one castle in Ireland and one in England. As such, I have no trouble accepting that Sir David Wogan's son and heir apparent, John Wogan, was married to a daughter of the Earl of Ormond as claimed.
>
> I've copied below my file account of John Wogan and his wife, Anne le Boteler (or Butler). I've also copied below the information presented in Susan Johanson's database which shows the two lines of descent from John Wogan and his wife, Anne, down to Margaret Fleming, wife of Griffith Bowen, Gentleman. Susan Johanson's database can be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=johanson&id=I53334
>
> Special thanks go to Charles Ward and Susan Johanson for their assistance in this matter. As a double descendant of Margaret (Fleming) Bowen, I'm most interested in this line.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> + + + + + + + + + +
>
> My file account:
>
> ANNE LE BOTELER (or BUTLER), married probably in 1405 (date of settlement) JOHN WOGAN, of Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire, son and heir apparent of David Wogan, Knt. (died 1417), of Kilka, Balymacloghter, Berton, Carbry, Cliwyn, Dunlost, Maynon, Meon, Okethy, Rathcoffy, and Tristeldermot, and Picton Castle, Pembrokeshire, King's knight, by his 1st wife, Anne, daughter of William Plunket, Knt., of Ireland. He was born say 1385. They had two daughters, Katherine (wife of Harry Wogan, Knt., and Owain Dwnn) and Anne (wife of Oliver Eustace, Knt.). JOHN WOGAN probably died before 1414 (date of settlement).
>
> References:
>
> Meyrick, Heraldic Vis. of Wales & Part of the Marches between the Years 1586 and 1613 1 (1846): 21 (Dwnn ped.: "Syr David Wgan a briododd Ann sol aeres Syr William Blwnket o Werddon marchog. ai mab John Wgan o Bicton esgwier a briododd Ann v Iarl Wormond ai verched ac aeressav oeddynt ddwy yr hynaf Katrin gwraid Owain Dwnn o Modlysgwmb Esgwier, ar llal oedd Ann gwraid Syr Olvir Ewstans o Weddon Kt."), 42 (Wogan ped.: "John Wgan off Picton Esqr = ........ merch Iarll Wormed."), 220 (Wogan ped.: "John Wgan o Bicton Esg. = Ann do to Iarll Wermod o Werddon."); 2 (1846): 53. Morris, County Seats of the Noblemen & Gentlemen of Great Britain & Ireland 1 (1866): 21-22. Jour. County Kildare Arch. Soc. 2 (1899): 5-6. Allen, Notes on the Sheriffs of Pembrokeshire, 1541-1899 (1900): 3-4. Owen, Old Pembroke Fams. in the Ancient County Palatine of Pembroke (1902): 35-45 ("David [Wogan], like his predecessors, had large possessions in Ireland, and in 1408 had a licence to ship four weighs of wheat to his castle in Wales. David had two sons: John, whose daughter Katherine brought Picton to Owen Donn, whose grand-daughter Jane brought it to Thomas Phillips of Cilsant; and Thomas, the ancestor of the Wogans of Rathcoffy, in co. Kildare."). West Wales Hist. Recs. 6 (1916): 169-232. Bartrum, Welsh Gens. 300-1400 3 (1980): 86 [Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2: "John [Wogan] d. before 1420 = Ann d. James Butler Earl of Ormond"].
>
> + + + + + + + +
>
> Descents taken from Susan Johanson's database:
>
> 1. King Edward I of England, died 1307, married Eleanor of Castile.
> 2. Elizabeth PLANTAGENET b: 07 AUG 1282 d: 05 MAY 1316
> + Humphrey de BOHUN b: ABT 1276 d: 16 MAR 1322
> 3. Eleanor de BOHUN b: BET 1313 AND 1314 d: 1363
> + James BUTLER 1st Earl of Ormond b: ABT 1305 d: 06 JAN 1338
> 4. James BUTLER 2nd Earl of Ormond b: 04 OCT 1331 d: 18 OCT 1382
> + Elizabeth DARCY b: ABT 1335 d: 24 MAR 1390
> 5. James BUTLER 3rd Earl of Ormond b: AFT 1361 d: 07 SEP 1405
> + Anne de WELLES b: ABT 1360 d: AFT 26 JUN 1397
> 6. Anne BUTLER b: ABT 1395 d: UNKNOWN
> + John WOGAN b: ABT 1390 d: 1421
> 7. Katherine WOGAN b: ABT 1417 d: UNKNOWN
> + Owain Dwnn ap MAREDUDD b: ABT 1395 d: UNKNOWN
> 8. Harry Dwnn ap OWAIN DWNN b: ABT 1435 d: 26 JUL 1469
> + Margaret WOGAN b: ABT 1440 d: UNKNOWN
> 9. Jenet ferch HARRY DWNN b: ABT 1454 d: UNKNOWN
> + Trahaearn ap MORGAN b: ABT 1452 d: UNKNOWN
> 10. Catrin ferch TRAHAERN b: ABT 1485 d: UNKNOWN
> + Henry BARRETT b: ABT 1482 d: UNKNOWN
> 11. Margaret BARRETT b: ABT 1520 d: UNKNOWN
> + William DAWKIN b: ABT 1515 d: UNKNOWN
> 12. Jenkin DAWKIN b: ABT 1545 d: UNKNOWN
> + Elizabeth JENKIN b: ABT 1545 d: UNKNOWN
> 13. Sarah DAWKINS b: ABT 1572 d: UNKNOWN
> + Henry FLEMING b: ABT 1568 d: AFT 1650
> 14. Margaret Fleming b: ABT 1605 d: 1675
> + Griffith BOWEN b: ABT 1600 d: 1676
>
> 2nd Line
>
> 9. Jenet ferch HARRY DWNN b: ABT 1454 d: UNKNOWN
> + Trahaearn ap MORGAN b: ABT 1452 d: UNKNOWN
> 10. Harry MORGAN b: ABT 1470 d: UNKNOWN
> + Margred WOGAN b: ABT 1475 d: UNKNOWN
> 11. Anne MORGAN b: ABT 1500 d: UNKNOWN
> + William PENRY b: ABT 1490 d: UNKNOWN
> 12. Elsbeth PENRY b: ABT 1522 d: UNKNOWN
> + Hugh ap DAVID b: ABT 1515 d: UNKNOWN
> 13. Sara ferch HUGH b: ABT 1540 d: UNKNOWN
> + William FLEMING b: ABT 1530 d: UNKNOWN
> 14. Henry FLEMING b: ABT 1568 d: AFT 1650
> + Sarah DAWKINS b: ABT 1572 d: UNKNOWN
> 15. Margaret Fleming b: ABT 1605 d: 1675
> + Griffith BOWEN b: ABT 1600 d: 1676
hi i have a john bowen who was married to a joan wogan also have Margaret Fleming, wife of Griffith Bowen and a whole lot of other bowens in my family tree and well i'm still trying to figer the whole bunch out because well i have came to find out that well both of my parents are related to each other from one of my bowen aunsisters but well where my other bowen are pop ing out at me are also with my dad mother side now because in her tree is where john bowen and joan wogan are showing up at there child name is a Elizabeth Bowen. if i could just have some one help me out here on this maybe we could figer out whats going on with the whole tree. lol. my tree is over on ancestry i also did a DNA as well. thanks so very much for reading my post.
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages